On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 13:06:37 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>you're a brit. wouldn't you be walking a couple hundred meters?
In Staple Hill it's still 1963 - that's why there's still a good
ironmongers.
Besides which, beer and mileage are still imperial. Weights in shops are
generally metric, but that's about all.
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:20:46 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Chris" <[email protected]> quickly quoth:
>Does anybody have a source for the high strength ammonia (26%)used in
>fuming? I've called around & checked online but nothing so far.
Check your local surveyor supply shop. I got some for $7.50 a gallon
in Medford, 29.4%
--
The older I get, the better I was.
----------------------------------
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Just out of curiosity, I recently fummed some small piecex of white oak
in a sealed tub using household ammonia. Removed samples at 12,
24,48, 72 and 96 hours. The oak continued to darken the longer it
stayed in. The 12 hour sample was a dark tan and by 24 hours it began
to really darken.By the 96 hour mark it was very dark and when I broke
the 1/2 inch thick 96 hour sample in two, I found that the darkening
had penitrated completely through the wood except for a very small area
in the center. So with patience, you can fume using regular household
ammonia. At least small pieces in a well sealed small area.
>Andy Dingley wrote:
> This isn't high strength. 25%/26% ammonia is just "strong household
> cleaning ammonia" and you can buy it in a decent hardware store. I buy
> mine for a buck a bottle, by walking a couple of hundred yards out of my
> front door. The old standard for ammonia was ".880" (pronounced
> "eight-eighty") of nominally 100% concentration and even that used to be
> available from high-street ironmongers.
>
> I know of no source from graphic arts suppliers. No-one I've spoken to
> has used that process in years, outside an arts college.
Andy,
I would have to disagree with you here. As I recall, you're from the
UK; correct me if I'm wrong. Don't know what the standards are there,
but I can assure you that, here in the States, 26% is pretty much
weapons-grade. For it to be 100% ammonia, it would have to be stored
under pressure, because that's a gas at room temperature.
Here, household strength is 3% to 5%, and "janitor's strength" is 10%.
A couple of strong wiffs of 26% has the potential to actually take your
life. The burns it can cause your skins are horrific.
And don't even bother with an OV respirator while using the stuff...it
will go right through. You need an ammonia cartridge instead.
Chris wrote:
> Thanks this seems like the place, doesn't say what strenght it is, did you
> get Ammonium Hydroxide, Lab, or Ammonium Hydroxide, ACS?
I can't recall offhand, but get whichever is cheapest at the right
concentration. The additional price is for additional purity, which
isn't really relevant to wood fuming.
> I'm surprised if 26% is
> unavailable in the USA, but sadly I'm not _that_ surprised.
It is not at all difficult to buy 26% ammonia here...you just have to
know where to look.
>
> Yes, but a saturated solution of it (my nominal 100%) has a specific
> gravity of .880 (hence the name) and is also relatively easily available
> as "lab reagent grade" ammonia.
And do you know what the _actual_ (read: not "nominal") concentration
of that ammonia is? (I'll give you a hint...depending on temperature,
it's roughly 35%.) You can also buy that here in the States...it's
available at virtually any chem-supply lab. Just like 26%.
> >A couple of strong wiffs of 26% has the potential to actually take your
> >life. The burns it can cause your skins are horrific.
>
> Rubbish. You'd have to start drinking the stuff, or splashing it in your
> eyes to see serious hazard from 26% ammonia.
>
Incredibly bad advice. Do you really have any idea what you're talking
about here?
> I don't bother with a respirator that much when I'm handling it quickly
> - good ventilation is adequate
Same as me...goggles, gloves, hold my breath, outside, upwind.
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:20:46 -0400, Chris <[email protected]> wrote:
> Does anybody have a source for the high strength ammonia (26%)used in
> fuming? I've called around & checked online but nothing so far.
Maybe the term "strong ammonia water" will be a helpful one to look for.
Back in "the day", I'd tell you to find your local blueprint printer,
but...
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 23:46:29 GMT, George E. Cawthon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Hinz wrote:
>> Maybe the term "strong ammonia water" will be a helpful one to look for.
>> Back in "the day", I'd tell you to find your local blueprint printer,
>> but...
> Don't need a blueprint printer, just find someone
> that does offset printing and develops there own
> metal plates for pictures.
Ah, good to know.
> Course the op could just use liquid NH3, 100 percent. See an
> agriculture dealer.
Nasty stuff, that. As in "hazmat" handling. And, given the illegal
other uses of anhydrous ammonia (meth lab), coops are understandably
unlikely to sell it to random walk-ins. Don't feel bad, though, it's
too strong to be around let alone try to control for wood finishing.
Dave Hinz
On 20 Oct 2005 12:47:05 -0700, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>(Someone wrote, but wood_newbie deleted the attributions for, )
>> Rubbish. You'd have to start drinking the stuff, or splashing it in your
>> eyes to see serious hazard from 26% ammonia.
> Incredibly bad advice. Do you really have any idea what you're talking
> about here?
Why not just google "msds strong ammonia" and come up with a link?
Here's one:
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/A5472.htm
>> I don't bother with a respirator that much when I'm handling it quickly
>> - good ventilation is adequate
>
> Same as me...goggles, gloves, hold my breath, outside, upwind.
See above link.
Thanks this seems like the place, doesn't say what strenght it is, did you
get Ammonium Hydroxide, Lab, or Ammonium Hydroxide, ACS?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Got mine from Post Apple Scientific. Their URL is
> http://shop2.chemassociates.com/shopsite/Chemassoc2/index.html
>
On 20 Oct 2005 06:51:18 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>but I can assure you that, here in the States, 26% is pretty much
>weapons-grade.
Presumably weapons for the war on drugs ? I'm surprised if 26% is
unavailable in the USA, but sadly I'm not _that_ surprised.
> For it to be 100% ammonia, it would have to be stored
>under pressure, because that's a gas at room temperature.
Yes, but a saturated solution of it (my nominal 100%) has a specific
gravity of .880 (hence the name) and is also relatively easily available
as "lab reagent grade" ammonia. If you're using old recipes that call
for .880, you can generally use 4x the quantity of the more easily
available.
Anhydrous ammonia (the form as a gas) really _is_ nasty.
>Here, household strength is 3% to 5%, and "janitor's strength" is 10%.
We have those too, but they'll be described as "ammonia floor cleaner".
They're basically detergents, with ammonia added largely for its ability
to shift old floor wax. If you can find "ammonia and nothing else
added", then it's 25-26% and it's not even that hard to find.
Incidentally, takes a look for "Kleenoff household cleaner", made by
Jeyes as a convenient source of ammonia for overnight oak fuming.
>A couple of strong wiffs of 26% has the potential to actually take your
>life. The burns it can cause your skins are horrific.
Rubbish. You'd have to start drinking the stuff, or splashing it in your
eyes to see serious hazard from 26% ammonia.
I have no woodworking chemicals that represent a major hazard -
certainly none of them that are anything like the hazard of most of my
metal patination chemistry (nitric acid, selenium salts, mercury salts).
Now some of those really are a bit nasty.
>And don't even bother with an OV respirator while using the stuff...it
>will go right through. You need an ammonia cartridge instead.
I don't bother with a respirator that much when I'm handling it quickly
- good ventilation is adequate (and ammonia is one of the few common
chemicals I'm moderately sensitive too). However you do need eye
protection - because it's so water soluble you'll notice it through your
eyes smarting before you can barely smell it. I use a mil-surplus full
face mask. Ammonia filters are easy enough to find if you've got
something with a standard filter fitting.
--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.
My experience with household ammonia and white oak was that most od the
darkening took place in 12-24 hours and penetration was way more than you
could sand through 1/8 - 1/4" IIRC.
Grocery store stuff can work.
-Steve
"areyoukidding" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 19 Oct 2005 17:11:50 -0700, "Mike in Arkansas" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Just out of curiosity, I recently fummed some small piecex of white oak
> >in a sealed tub using household ammonia. Removed samples at 12,
> >24,48, 72 and 96 hours. The oak continued to darken the longer it
> >stayed in. The 12 hour sample was a dark tan and by 24 hours it began
> >to really darken.By the 96 hour mark it was very dark and when I broke
> >the 1/2 inch thick 96 hour sample in two, I found that the darkening
> >had penitrated completely through the wood except for a very small area
> >in the center. So with patience, you can fume using regular household
> >ammonia. At least small pieces in a well sealed small area.
>
> What was the size of the pieces?
On 19 Oct 2005 17:11:50 -0700, "Mike in Arkansas" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Just out of curiosity, I recently fummed some small piecex of white oak
>in a sealed tub using household ammonia. Removed samples at 12,
>24,48, 72 and 96 hours. The oak continued to darken the longer it
>stayed in. The 12 hour sample was a dark tan and by 24 hours it began
>to really darken.By the 96 hour mark it was very dark and when I broke
>the 1/2 inch thick 96 hour sample in two, I found that the darkening
>had penitrated completely through the wood except for a very small area
>in the center. So with patience, you can fume using regular household
>ammonia. At least small pieces in a well sealed small area.
What was the size of the pieces?
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:48:00 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:20:46 -0400, "Chris" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Does anybody have a source for the high strength ammonia (26%)used in
>>fuming?
>
>This isn't high strength. 25%/26% ammonia is just "strong household
>cleaning ammonia" and you can buy it in a decent hardware store. I buy
>mine for a buck a bottle, by walking a couple of hundred yards
waaaiiiit a minute... you're a brit. wouldn't you be walking a couple
hundred meters?
> out of my
>front door. The old standard for ammonia was ".880" (pronounced
>"eight-eighty") of nominally 100% concentration and even that used to be
>available from high-street ironmongers.
>
>I know of no source from graphic arts suppliers. No-one I've spoken to
>has used that process in years, outside an arts college.
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:20:46 -0400, "Chris" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Does anybody have a source for the high strength ammonia (26%)used in
>fuming?
This isn't high strength. 25%/26% ammonia is just "strong household
cleaning ammonia" and you can buy it in a decent hardware store. I buy
mine for a buck a bottle, by walking a couple of hundred yards out of my
front door. The old standard for ammonia was ".880" (pronounced
"eight-eighty") of nominally 100% concentration and even that used to be
available from high-street ironmongers.
I know of no source from graphic arts suppliers. No-one I've spoken to
has used that process in years, outside an arts college.
--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.
Dave Hinz wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:20:46 -0400, Chris <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Does anybody have a source for the high strength ammonia (26%)used in
>>fuming? I've called around & checked online but nothing so far.
>
>
> Maybe the term "strong ammonia water" will be a helpful one to look for.
> Back in "the day", I'd tell you to find your local blueprint printer,
> but...
>
Don't need a blueprint printer, just find someone
that does offset printing and develops there own
metal plates for pictures.
Course the op could just use liquid NH3, 100
percent. See an agriculture dealer.