i need advice on how to proceed with my oak kitchen table

On 8/9/2013 6:44 PM, Karen wrote:
> I stripped and sanded my oak kitchen table top. My husband said it looked
> like I had over sanded the side. He thought perhaps the problem area
> might not show if I stained over it. It turned out poorly. I have not
> used the polyurethane yet. Should I go back and resand all of the sides?
> Can I do that? Is it necessary to redo the top? Just don't know what to
> do. Appreciate your advice.
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/11[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/12[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/13[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/14[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/15[/IMG]
>


When you pull the table apart to put the leaf in, what do the ends/edges
of the wood look like where the butt up against each other.

It appears that you have sanded through the outer veneer on the skirt/apron.

Probably the easiest fix is to hide it, paint it a complimentary color,
black even.

Is the table top even wood or is it Formica? It appears to have no wear
compared to the wood sides.

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Why does everyone think the apron is veneer? Sure doesn't look like it to
> me. Even in the area that is so bad with the vertical scratches. Look at
> the bottom edge of the apron in the various pictures...look at the dings and
> gouges. There is even one area where it looks like a sizeable piece has
> splintered out. If that apron is veneered, it is the thickest veneer I have
> ever seen.

I really want to say you are indeed correct, but I simply can't determine
from the photos whether the apron is veneered or not. The wood on the
curved apron with no finish at all could well be oak, but it also has that
"Luan look" of substrate used in curved, factory made pieces, although the
underlying grain seems to match for the most part, which tends to bear out
your contention?

That said, and assuming it is factory made, it would be extraordinarily
rare to see curved, solid oak on a piece of factory made furniture in the
last century, or longer, so I keep wishing I could get up close, and hands
on with it to really tell for sure.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

"dpb" wrote:

> Probably like me--I don't use the camera frequently enough but what
> when I go to get it again it's completely discharged and I'm then in
> enough of a hurry that I don't bother to go thru the pita steps to
> reset it...
---------------------------------------------------------------
Like you, I'm an infrequent camera user.

After draining two (2) sets of lithium batteries without taking any
pictures,
I now open the battery case when storing the camera.

Resetting the date & time stamp is a small price to pay.

Lew

"Dr. Deb" <[email protected]> wrote:

> From the dates on the pictures, this even happened in 2004. Excuse me,
> but why are you asking about a project that is NINE years old?
>
> Deb

No telling with that scammer outfit. What they do is aggregate Usenet
groups and add advertising ... IOW, they profit off the freely given advice
we proffer here ... Scumbags one and all.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

Karen wrote:

> I stripped and sanded my oak kitchen table top. My husband said it looked
> like I had over sanded the side. He thought perhaps the problem area
> might not show if I stained over it. It turned out poorly. I have not
> used the polyurethane yet. Should I go back and resand all of the sides?
> Can I do that? Is it necessary to redo the top? Just don't know what to
> do. Appreciate your advice.
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/11[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/12[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/13[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/14[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/15[/IMG]
>

From the dates on the pictures, this even happened in 2004. Excuse me,
but why are you asking about a project that is NINE years old?

Deb

On 8/10/2013 3:22 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/10/2013 1:55 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>> Clearly by the last picture the top and the edge mould
>>> bead around the top are separate--the grain is lengthwise
>>> on the mould but end on the top facing the camera. From
>>> that picture the top looks like it could even be laminate
>>> but may just be light/reflection as the first picture
>>> doesn't seem so disparate as that last.
>>> To do anything to the apron you need to strip the finish
>>> back down and even if paint will have to use a grain
>>> filler to try to mask the difference in texture owing to
>>> the substrate and the remaining veneer.
>>
>> Why does everyone think the apron is veneer? Sure doesn't look like
>> it to
>> me. Even in the area that is so bad with the vertical scratches. Look at
>> the bottom edge of the apron in the various pictures...look at the
>> dings and
>> gouges. There is even one area where it looks like a sizeable piece has
>> splintered out. If that apron is veneered, it is the thickest veneer
>> I have
>> ever seen.
>>
>> You are correct in saying the top and edge mold are separate pieces. The
>> edge mold might even be part of the apron. Doubt it but could be.
>>
>> As an aside, I wonder why her pictures are all dated 9 1/2 years ago.
>> Her
>> camera date is messed up? She has been working on it that long? We are
>> seeing old pix that no longer represent things as they are now?
>>
>
>
> Notice that the grain goes up and down 90 degrees in this picture where
> she sanded too deeply.
>
> http://www.homeownershub.com/img/14

That's the pic that made my determination about the substrate.
But in dadiOh's defense, it might be very coarse sandpaper scratches..
but I'm betting its a ply substrate.

--
Jeff

On 8/10/2013 1:55 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> Clearly by the last picture the top and the edge mould
>> bead around the top are separate--the grain is lengthwise
>> on the mould but end on the top facing the camera. From
>> that picture the top looks like it could even be laminate
>> but may just be light/reflection as the first picture
>> doesn't seem so disparate as that last.
>> To do anything to the apron you need to strip the finish
>> back down and even if paint will have to use a grain
>> filler to try to mask the difference in texture owing to
>> the substrate and the remaining veneer.
>
> Why does everyone think the apron is veneer? Sure doesn't look like it to
> me. Even in the area that is so bad with the vertical scratches. Look at
> the bottom edge of the apron in the various pictures...look at the dings and
> gouges. There is even one area where it looks like a sizeable piece has
> splintered out. If that apron is veneered, it is the thickest veneer I have
> ever seen.
>
> You are correct in saying the top and edge mold are separate pieces. The
> edge mold might even be part of the apron. Doubt it but could be.
>
> As an aside, I wonder why her pictures are all dated 9 1/2 years ago. Her
> camera date is messed up? She has been working on it that long? We are
> seeing old pix that no longer represent things as they are now?
>


Notice that the grain goes up and down 90 degrees in this picture where
she sanded too deeply.

http://www.homeownershub.com/img/14

On 8/9/2013 7:44 PM, Karen wrote:
> I stripped and sanded my oak kitchen table top. My husband said it looked
> like I had over sanded the side. He thought perhaps the problem area
> might not show if I stained over it. It turned out poorly. I have not
> used the polyurethane yet. Should I go back and resand all of the sides?
> Can I do that? Is it necessary to redo the top? Just don't know what to
> do. Appreciate your advice.
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/11[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/12[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/13[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/14[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/15[/IMG]
>

Yes you over sanded it, you went through the veneer to the ply.
At this point you can not fix the veneer.

You could go to a store like Woodcraft or Rockler and by veneer that is
self stick and apply it over...
But you will first have to strip that area again since it will be oily
(stain) and won't stick as well.

Your other choice is to paint over the apron area.
You would use zinsser seal coat shellac to seal before painting, or
Zinsser bin primer.
Then paint the apron...




--
Jeff

On 8/9/2013 8:38 PM, Sonny wrote:
> You need some oak edge banding.
>
> How wide is that widest edge, 3/4" or 7/8"? Install (glue or iron on) whatever width you need to cover that widest edging. You might want to edge band the whole edging, not just the areas you sanded too much. You've sanded to raw wood, so the banding will/should adhere well. If you get glue on, you may need clamps, to clamp it until the glue dries. Elastic or rubber band type straps may be best for "clamping" along any curved profiles.
>
> Home Depot has 3/4" wide edge banding.
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-x-25-ft-Red-Oak-Real-Wood-Veneer-Edgebanding-with-Hot-Melt-Adhesive-642297/100541135
>
> This place has 7/8" edge banding.
> http://www.veneersupplies.com/categories/Veneer__Products/Edge__Banding/Veneer__Edgebanding%3A__7%E2%81%848%22__x__10%27/
>
> Sonny
>

Sonny that is wider than 3/4 or 7/8... she's going to need veneer..
Pressure sensitive adhesive backed would be best for her.

--
Jeff

You need some oak edge banding. =20

How wide is that widest edge, 3/4" or 7/8"? Install (glue or iron on) what=
ever width you need to cover that widest edging. You might want to edge ba=
nd the whole edging, not just the areas you sanded too much. You've sanded=
to raw wood, so the banding will/should adhere well. If you get glue on, =
you may need clamps, to clamp it until the glue dries. Elastic or rubber b=
and type straps may be best for "clamping" along any curved profiles.

Home Depot has 3/4" wide edge banding.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/3-4-in-x-25-ft-Red-Oak-Real-Wood-Veneer-Edgeband=
ing-with-Hot-Melt-Adhesive-642297/100541135

This place has 7/8" edge banding.
http://www.veneersupplies.com/categories/Veneer__Products/Edge__Banding/Ven=
eer__Edgebanding%3A__7%E2%81%848%22__x__10%27/

Sonny

On Friday, August 9, 2013 8:54:23 PM UTC-5, woodchucker wrote:
> > Sonny that is wider than 3/4 or 7/8... she's going to need veneer.. Pressure sensitive adhesive backed would be best for her. -- Jeff

I should have looked at all the pics. How about 2"?

https://www.google.com/search?q=2%22+oak+edge+banding&oq=2%22+oak+edge+banding&gs_l=serp.12..0i30j0i8i30.25797.26656.0.29391.4.4.0.0.0.0.547.859.3-1j0j1.2.0....0...1c.1.24.serp..2.2.859.ui9YoBvuXfU

Sonny

"Karen" <[email protected]>
wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I stripped and sanded my oak kitchen table top. My
> husband said it looked like I had over sanded the side. He thought perhaps
> the problem area might not show if I
> stained over it. It turned out poorly. I have not
> used the polyurethane yet. Should I go back and resand
> all of the sides? Can I do that? Is it necessary to redo
> the top? Just don't know what to do. Appreciate your advice.
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/11[/IMG]
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/12[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/13[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/14[/IMG]
>
> [IMG]http://www.homeownershub.com/img/15[/IMG]

The previous posters feel that your table - or, at least the apron - is oak
veneer over plywood or other and that you sanded through the thin veneer
exposing the "other". I don't. The top appears to be solid oak and if the
table was veneered, that would be the place to use it. Nothing looks like
veneer.
___________________

To me, it looks like you have two problems with the apron:

1. In some places you did not remove all of the previous finish. There
are various areas where it looks like that; one in particular is the large
dark blob just to the left of the apron joint. When you stained, the raw
wood accepted the stain differently than where there was still finish which
is why it looks patchy. However, one would think that areas with old finish
would not accept stain as well; was the old finish dark?

2. You sanded the bejeezus out of the apron at the right side of the
joint. What in the world did you use? And why sand vertically?
____________________

There is no problem fixing the apron (the top looks fine). Here's what I
would do...

1. If at all possible, remove the top from the apron. There are probably a
few clips or screws on the underside holding it on. Removing it would make
working on the apron much easier.

2. Get yourself a "card scraper". Those are a thin piece of steel about the
size of a postcard. One uses them to scrape. Scraping removes wood much
faster than sanding. Here is a link to one with all ready prepared edges...
http://www.amazon.com/Cherries-520-5750-Scraper-Prepared-Edges/dp/B000JRDLP0/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_1/192-9575793-7995019

3. Use the scraper on the area(s) with the really deep scratches. Lay the
edge of the scraper on the wood, tilt it toward you about 30 degrees and
pull it toward you. If it doesn't scrape up some wood, apply a bit more
pressure. It wouldn't hurt to practice on something else til you get the
hang of it.

Once you are able to use it, start scraping. Resist the desire to dig at
the sceatches, scrape the full height of the apron and make each stroke a
bit longer; you want to feather out the bad area, not make a hole.

4. After the horrid scratches are removed, sand the entire apron; generally,
people underestimate the amount of sanding they need to do. I'd probably
start with 120 paper. After sanding thoroughly I'd slightly dampen the
wood, just wipe it with a damp rag; what I'm looking for are areas that
don't wet out...those areas still have old finish on them. Depending on the
size of old finish areas I would either sand some more or I'd use paint
remover and a tooth brush to get it off. Oak has very deep grain and it can
take a ton of sanding to remove finish from it; the reason I didn't suggest
using a chemical stripper first is because it doesn't look like you have all
that much old finish left.

5. Once scratches and old finish are gone and you have thoroughly sanded,
sand again with a finer grit. If I used 120 first I would finish with 180.
The purpose of the finer grit is to remove the scratches left by the coarser
paper. Some would sand again with finer and again with still finer. I
wouldn't. To me, 180 is plenty fine enough on an oak apron.

6. Stain (after removing sanding dust...a vacuum followed by wiping with a
microfiber rag does a good job)

7. Varnish
______________________

A word about sanding...

The round, ROS (random orbit sander) machines have become popular. They do
a good job but I still prefer the 1/4 sheet sanders. Slower but IMO more
controllable. Nothing wrong with hand sanding either...a piece of sand
paper wrapped around a small (dry) kitchen sponge works well (but slowly).
Regardless of what you use, don't try to "dig" with edge or corner.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 8/9/2013 6:44 PM, Karen wrote:
> I stripped and sanded my oak kitchen table top. My husband said it looked
> like I had over sanded the side. He thought perhaps the problem area
> might not show if I stained over it. It turned out poorly. I have not
> used the polyurethane yet. Should I go back and resand all of the sides?
> Can I do that? Is it necessary to redo the top? Just don't know what to
> do. Appreciate your advice.
...

Your only options on the apron are as others have said -- either just
accept the inevitable and color it a contrasting color w/ solid dye or
paint or apply a new veneer over it.

<http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1730&site=ROCKLER>

is a 2-3/8" x 25-ft roll -- not sure if that'll be quite wide enough or
not but if not you're about to the full 2x8 sheets as I'm not sure
you'll find anything much wider...

Clearly by the last picture the top and the edge mould bead around the
top are separate--the grain is lengthwise on the mould but end on the
top facing the camera. From that picture the top looks like it could
even be laminate but may just be light/reflection as the first picture
doesn't seem so disparate as that last.

To do anything to the apron you need to strip the finish back down and
even if paint will have to use a grain filler to try to mask the
difference in texture owing to the substrate and the remaining veneer.

'Tis a pickle and there's no easy out, unfortunately. If'fen 'twere
mine and I didn't mind the change to a solid apron color, I'd probably
first try to strip and further sand to near bare wood, use the filler
and then try a water-based dye of dark hue--brown/black/maybe even very
dark-tinted red depending on the rest of the setting in the room. If it
doesn't cover entirely, you can then still either paint over it or even
use the veneer as escape routes.

--

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Clearly by the last picture the top and the edge mould
> bead around the top are separate--the grain is lengthwise
> on the mould but end on the top facing the camera. From
> that picture the top looks like it could even be laminate
> but may just be light/reflection as the first picture
> doesn't seem so disparate as that last.
> To do anything to the apron you need to strip the finish
> back down and even if paint will have to use a grain
> filler to try to mask the difference in texture owing to
> the substrate and the remaining veneer.

Why does everyone think the apron is veneer? Sure doesn't look like it to
me. Even in the area that is so bad with the vertical scratches. Look at
the bottom edge of the apron in the various pictures...look at the dings and
gouges. There is even one area where it looks like a sizeable piece has
splintered out. If that apron is veneered, it is the thickest veneer I have
ever seen.

You are correct in saying the top and edge mold are separate pieces. The
edge mold might even be part of the apron. Doubt it but could be.

As an aside, I wonder why her pictures are all dated 9 1/2 years ago. Her
camera date is messed up? She has been working on it that long? We are
seeing old pix that no longer represent things as they are now?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On 8/10/2013 1:55 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> > "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > > Clearly by the last picture the top and the edge mould
> > > bead around the top are separate--the grain is
> > > lengthwise on the mould but end on the top facing the
> > > camera. From that picture the top looks like it
> > > could even be laminate but may just be
> > > light/reflection as the first picture doesn't seem so
> > > disparate as that last. To do anything to the apron you need to strip
> > > the
> > > finish back down and even if paint will have to use a
> > > grain filler to try to mask the difference in texture
> > > owing to the substrate and the remaining veneer.
> >
> > Why does everyone think the apron is veneer? Sure
> > doesn't look like it to me. Even in the area that is so
> > bad with the vertical scratches. Look at the bottom
> > edge of the apron in the various pictures...look at the
> > dings and gouges. There is even one area where it
> > looks like a sizeable piece has splintered out. If
> > that apron is veneered, it is the thickest veneer I
> > have ever seen. You are correct in saying the top and edge mold are
> > separate pieces. The edge mold might even be part of
> > the apron. Doubt it but could be. As an aside, I wonder why her
> > pictures are all dated 9
> > 1/2 years ago. Her camera date is messed up? She has
> > been working on it that long? We are seeing old pix
> > that no longer represent things as they are now?
>
>
> Notice that the grain goes up and down 90 degrees in this
> picture where she sanded too deeply.
>
> http://www.homeownershub.com/img/14

Could be, I took them to be massive sanding scratches since they extend into
areas where there is clearly oak.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Why does everyone think the apron is veneer? Sure
> > doesn't look like it to me. Even in the area that is so
> > bad with the vertical scratches. Look at the bottom
> > edge of the apron in the various pictures...look at the
> > dings and gouges. There is even one area where it
> > looks like a sizeable piece has splintered out. If
> > that apron is veneered, it is the thickest veneer I
> > have ever seen.
>
> I really want to say you are indeed correct, but I simply
> can't determine from the photos whether the apron is
> veneered or not. The wood on the curved apron with no
> finish at all could well be oak, but it also has that
> "Luan look" of substrate used in curved, factory made
> pieces, although the underlying grain seems to match for
> the most part, which tends to bear out your contention?
>
> That said, and assuming it is factory made, it would be
> extraordinarily rare to see curved, solid oak on a piece
> of factory made furniture in the last century, or longer,
> so I keep wishing I could get up close, and hands on with
> it to really tell for sure.

That's really the only way to tell.

If solid, I wouldn't expect it to be sawn; rather, kerfed and bent. Do
manufacturers do that?


--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 8/10/2013 1:55 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "dpb"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>
...

> Why does everyone think the apron is veneer? Sure doesn't look like it to
> me. Even in the area that is so bad with the vertical scratches. Look at
> the bottom edge of the apron in the various pictures...look at the dings and
> gouges. There is even one area where it looks like a sizeable piece has
> splintered out. If that apron is veneered, it is the thickest veneer I have
> ever seen.

'Cuz clearly the orientation of vertical grain vis a vis the apron
veneer is the substrate ply. There's no way, now how, she could have
gotten that kind of scratch pattern vertically (at least w/o having
removed the top which I'd say is highly unlikely (as in it didn't) to
have happened).

#14 is unequivocal -- you can the gradual thickness of the remaining
veneer gradually obscure the substrate grain. You can even see from the
stain absorption to the right where the thickness remaining is so little
that while the grain still shows horizontally, there's insufficient
actual material left but what the stain absorbed into the substrate and
darkened the end result.


> You are correct in saying the top and edge mold are separate pieces. The
> edge mold might even be part of the apron. Doubt it but could be.

Can't be since the apron is a veneered piece...plus there's no way
practical way (as in production factory-produced) they're going to do
that out of a solid piece--it would have to have been glued up and
circularly shaped to get the round profile--if the top bead were intact
w/ it as solid piece it's far too thick to have bent.

> As an aside, I wonder why her pictures are all dated 9 1/2 years ago. Her
> camera date is messed up? She has been working on it that long? We are
> seeing old pix that no longer represent things as they are now?

Probably like me--I don't use the camera frequently enough but what when
I go to get it again it's completely discharged and I'm then in enough
of a hurry that I don't bother to go thru the pita steps to reset it...

--

On 8/10/2013 2:39 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> On 8/10/2013 1:55 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>>> Clearly by the last picture the top and the edge mould
>>>> bead around the top are separate--the grain is
>>>> lengthwise on the mould but end on the top facing the
>>>> camera. From that picture the top looks like it
>>>> could even be laminate but may just be
>>>> light/reflection as the first picture doesn't seem so
>>>> disparate as that last. To do anything to the apron you need to strip
>>>> the
>>>> finish back down and even if paint will have to use a
>>>> grain filler to try to mask the difference in texture
>>>> owing to the substrate and the remaining veneer.
>>>
>>> Why does everyone think the apron is veneer? Sure
>>> doesn't look like it to me. Even in the area that is so
>>> bad with the vertical scratches. Look at the bottom
>>> edge of the apron in the various pictures...look at the
>>> dings and gouges. There is even one area where it
>>> looks like a sizeable piece has splintered out. If
>>> that apron is veneered, it is the thickest veneer I
>>> have ever seen. You are correct in saying the top and edge mold are
>>> separate pieces. The edge mold might even be part of
>>> the apron. Doubt it but could be. As an aside, I wonder why her
>>> pictures are all dated 9
>>> 1/2 years ago. Her camera date is messed up? She has
>>> been working on it that long? We are seeing old pix
>>> that no longer represent things as they are now?
>>
>>
>> Notice that the grain goes up and down 90 degrees in this
>> picture where she sanded too deeply.
>>
>> http://www.homeownershub.com/img/14
>
> Could be, I took them to be massive sanding scratches since they extend into
> areas where there is clearly oak.
>

I considered that but I think the streaks would have extended into the
undamaged top veneer also and the scratch marks would have been more
equal in length. These appear to be random lengths like wood grain.