OT: As if THS is news.....

"Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Usually. But more often it's catering to the whims of his kids. "I don't
> want them to work as hard as I did".
> "But, Dad, there's a game and we're going to (favorite hangout) after"
> "Jimmy doesn't have to do that"
> "That was then, this is now". (you old farts had to a lot of things this
> generation doesn't)

And them things we had can not be bought with any amount of money.

Robatoy wrote:

> I paid for my education.
> I paid for my move away from my parents'.
> I grew up in a privileged environment.
> I didn't like it.
>
> Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
> kicked my way.
>
> So, why is this news?
>
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm

It's news because in our John Edward's two-Americas paradigm, it is held
by most enlightened elites that the working poor in our society are
chronically in that condition with no way out of their condition without
the help of the government taking away money from other productive people
and giving it to those working poor or through legislation that forces
businesses to pay them more or provide free career education or some other
means.

What this guy did just set that paradigm on its ear. He showed that by
applying common sense and rationality to this condition, he was able to
start with nothing and move up.

Yeah, that's news.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Swingman wrote:

> "Robatoy" wrote
>
>> He had a safety valve.
>
> Strictly my opinion, but what's amazing to me about the article is the
> thinking, or lack thereof, of those taking exception to it ... makes me
> worry even more about the future of my kids in this culture.
>
> Uncluttered thinking, sans politically tainted agendizing/correctness,
> must reach the conclusion that the credit card in the back pocket "safety
> valve" is arguably symbolic for "welfare" ... use of either guarantees
> continuing poverty.
>
> (... I would have used the "net" in place of "valve")
>
> ... just my tuppence.
>

I've been kind of surprised by that also. The person doing this
experiment was a reasonably intelligent person; he wasn't going to do
something that would put him in the position of being in a situation that
would ruin the rest of his life for the sake of an experiment. What those
criticizing him for this detail seemed to have missed is that he indicated
that his rule was that if he used the card, the experiment was over.
Frankly, I would think that having that credit card would have made his
experiment more difficult because he knew he had it, knew it was there and
that he could use it anytime (sort of like the system you reference above).
Seems that would have been a very great temptation any time that the going
got a bit tough.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

GROVER wrote:
> On Feb 16, 1:49 am, Hank <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in news:2dednfM7z-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>
>>
>>> "GROVER" wrote
>>>> TCM occasionally shows an old film which has a similar theme.
>>> That is the ONLY channel I watch on TV with any regularity ... we really
>>> knew how to make movies (and music), before the rise of idiocy.
>> Amen. Did you catch the Burt Lancaster series of movies that were on TCM
>> recently?
>
> Yes, I caught Burt Lancaster, he's one of the tops.
> Speaking of humble beginings, I had to walk to school 5 miles each
> day, up hill both ways.
> Joe G
You forgot about the waist high snow. But then I was attacked by a
frenzied saber tooth potfer one time.
j4

J. Clarke wrote:
> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?

You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your education
benefits and then go to school.... Rod

George wrote:

>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
>>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>>
>>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>>
>> And if you're 4-F?
>>
>
> You check carefully, because there isn't a draft, nor draft physicals, nor
> physical classifications.
>
> As I said earlier, a self-initializing individual with desire and effort
> will find a way, but it's sure difficult, after reading responses, to
> figure
> out why. If you are confident of failure, you'll find it, and if you lack
> a way to fail, or an excuse for failure, this bunch will find one for you.

Seems to be symptomatic of our society as a whole; in our rush to be
tolerant, understanding, and compassionate, we have, as a whole, developed
a tolerance and sympathy for failure -- even if that failure is based upon
poor choices made early on or a lack of drive or motivation. That's not
necessarily bad in itself, but the corollary and conclusion that follows is
that those who did not make poor choices but who sacrificed and exhibited
drive and motivation are expected to not only pick up the slack for those
who did not but also to share the fruits of their labors with them as well.





--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

In article <[email protected]>,
J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>
>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>
>And if you're 4-F?

Fine, Friendly, Fraternizing Females have other ways to accumulate funds.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>
>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>
> And if you're 4-F?
>
> --
> --
> --John


Then you try something else......One can get married and put your spouse to
work, a couple could even take turns and either could squeeze in part time
work as well. One can kiss up to your parents and hang around the homestead
until college is done. There are a unlimited variety of jobs that coincide
with college classes coupled with roommates or shared housing etc.....There
are ample college loans and scholarships available for direct school costs
and in many cases living costs as well. I think your confusing difficult
with impossible.

Regrettably as more easy money (via loans & taxes) has flooded the market
schools have raised tuition rates far exceeding inflation, actually almost
in lock step with inflated medical costs......3rd party payees raise havoc
with market place dynamics. Community colleges while expensive as well are
far cheaper than 4 yr. institutions thus provide a much cheaper weeding out
process for the many whom attempt but fail to finish school.

My wife's family (three brothers and her) were literally as poor as church
mice, her Dad was pastor of a small church and her Mom had decade long major
medical problems and bills.....her 2 brothers and my wife all graduated from
college...for those whom want it and have enough gray matter to get by,
there is always a way. Rod





Rod

J. Clarke wrote:

> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family
>>>>> with
>>>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>>>
>>>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>>>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>>>
>>> And if you're 4-F?
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> --John
>>
>>
>> Then you try something else......One can get married and put your
>> spouse to work, a couple could even take turns and either could
>> squeeze in part time work as well.
>
> If the spouse can find work.
>

Always the doom and gloom eh?


>> One can kiss up to your parents
>> and hang around the homestead until college is done.
>
> So how do you pay for college? And what happens if the parents live
> 200 miles from the nearest decent college?
>

Then that's not an option

>> There are a
>> unlimited variety of jobs that coincide with college classes coupled
>> with roommates or shared housing etc.....There are ample college
>> loans and scholarships available for direct school costs and in many
>> cases living costs as well. I think your confusing difficult with
>> impossible.
>
> And now you're ending up with the guy fresh out of college with huge
> indebtedness to pay back.
>

Motivation to do well. Hopefully he has done the cost trades

>> Regrettably as more easy money (via loans & taxes) has flooded the
>> market schools have raised tuition rates far exceeding inflation,
>> actually almost in lock step with inflated medical costs......3rd
>> party payees raise havoc with market place dynamics. Community
>> colleges while expensive as well are far cheaper than 4 yr.
>> institutions thus provide a much cheaper weeding out process for the
>> many whom attempt but fail to finish school.
>>
>> My wife's family (three brothers and her) were literally as poor as
>> church mice, her Dad was pastor of a small church and her Mom had
>> decade long major medical problems and bills.....her 2 brothers and
>> my wife all graduated from college...for those whom want it and have
>> enough gray matter to get by, there is always a way. Rod
>>

Yep, if you look deep enough. I grew up on a small family farm that was
far from prosperous. My folks pushed us to do will in school and were
supportive in terms of providing a place to live (couldn't afford the dorm,
so I had a 30 mile commute), provided the opportunity to work to pay for
school (I put myself through school raising pigs), and encouragement --
they couldn't provide money. Both my brother and I got our engineering
degrees and found good jobs that have been good to us. We could have
groused about how we couldn't afford to go to college if we tried the
traditional route, but as Rod said, if there is a will there is a way.

I'm trying to figure out if you are looking for excuses for others, or
what the deal is, you seem to be able to identify why it is just impossible
for someone starting with little to do well (or even OK). Not everyone
will become plant manager, manager, or CEO, but with determination and some
drive, it should be possible to make a decent living.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

On Feb 15, 11:37=A0am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

> Frankly, I would think that having that credit card would have made his
> experiment more difficult because he knew he had it, knew it was there and=

> that he could use it anytime (sort of like the system you reference above)=
.
> Seems that would have been a very great temptation any time that the going=

> got a bit tough.


This would be like saying that climbing a 1000' vertical rock face
using ropes/saftey lines would be "more difficult" as oppossed to free
climbing it (no saftey gear whatsoever). This is actually a perfect
scenario analagous to the OP.

If you were to climb the face with saftey lines/ropes you would move
quicker, take steps with confidence, perhaps take a few riskier hand/
foot holds than you would, your heart would pound less, you may take
time out to relax and look around, your lungs would operate more
efficiently, experience less fatigue, the list is endless. You would
get to the top faster, and taken less toll on your body, period.

Now climb the face with no saftey equipment, you will second, third,
fourth, tenth guess every move becase its life or death, this stress
will likely cause you to make less than optimal decisions, you would
move exponentially slower, your heart would pound rapidly putting
untold amounts of additional stress on your body, your entire
physiology would opperate less efficiently. You would get there far
slower if at all and perhaps die trying.

Now, go even farther, say the first climber is the guy in the article,
he is an experienced climber (experienced, educated, confident, at
what he was doing). Try it with a novice climber, then with someone
who has never even hiked. Then with someone who has a fear of heights.
Then with someone who is 60lbs overweight. Plot the results of
climbing the rock, and out of poverty, on a graph and I would venture
a guess that the two would take very similar tracks.

Furtermore the thought that the card would make it harder flies in the
face of every medical study published regarding stress, health, and
decision making. There are countless reems of data chronicling how
constant stress (worry) is debilitating, detrimental to sound decision
making, and can in fact cause and fertilize disease. Possesion of this
card voids that stress in the short and long term (perhaps when he
max's it out things will change hehe). His education voids that
stress. His knowing that no matter what the outcome of this experiment
he has a home, family, earning potential, voids that stress. Its like
jumping between two tractor trailers going 60mph side by side on a
reality show. The fear is mitigated by the rigging and saftey gear you
are wearing, whether you succeed or fail, you are not falling to the
roadway to be ground up into bits. The show will not allow that to
happen, so just go ahead and jump, who cares. The only bad outcome is
that you dont win.

I see both sides with regards to the book/article. I find it very
short sighted yet I do agree that there are a lot of lazy people out
there who are more than willing to take something for nothing so they
dont have to get off their asses. I do however agree with many of the
other posters that coming up from abject poverty is far more difficult
than this article/book tries to make it sound. This is another one of
those "mile in his shoes" things. People who havent been through it,
and even some who have, dont often take all aspects into
consideration.

Mark

On Feb 14, 7:27=A0pm, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:28:39 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I paid for my education.
> >I paid for my move away from my parents'.
> >I grew up in a privileged environment.
> >I didn't like it.
>
> >Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
> >kicked my way.
>
> >So, why is this news?
>
> >http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>
> What a load. First of all, if he's trying to make a point that it's
> possible to work one's way out of poverty, I think he missed it on two
> major factors: one, he wasn't fighting a psychological disadvantage
> (i.e., he wasn't drugged up, he wasn't a half bubble off plumb, etc.).
> Second, he ALWAYS knew where his next meal was coming from so long as
> he had that credit card in his back pocket.
>
> There's no trick to any of the stuff he did when you KNOW you don't
> HAVE to and that you can climb out any time you want to.
>
> I am so unimpressed.
>
> Or did I miss something?
>
No, I don't think you did. He had a safety valve.

I didn't. I had my pride. <G>

On Feb 15, 3:33=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> That analogy works for me. Where's the danger when there's a net?- Hide qu=
oted text -
>

And even beyond the danger, how does the lack of it effect ones
projected confidence. As others have posted forget about the fact that
he is well educated, knows the system well, is probably extremely
fluent and a good speaker/conversationalist. Give this guy an 8th
grade education, a couple of parents who never made him brush his
teeth so he only has 5 or 6 left in his head, never learned ettiquate
and the need for deodorant, and the outcome of this experience would
likely not be debated here. What about things he/she has no control
over, cursed with a unibrow from hell, cross eyed, stutters, big goofy
ears, buck teeth, or is just plain wierd lookin.

This is what I meant by the "mile in his shoes" thing and people
speaking about that which they do not know. How is a single mother and
a victim of abuse is going to "present herself" at a job interview.
Low self esteem, a lack of confidence, minimal eye contact, she is way
down on the rock climbing scale. Hence the hireability scale and
subsequently the pay scale. Its not to say she cant or shouldnt work
however depending on the locale it may be very difficult for her to
exist on what she can command.

A lot of this topic is greatly impacted by ones location but, I
personally live and operate a business in an area where many people
through poverty, simple lifestyle, or simply not having needed to
worry about it in their daily life, have to be reminded to wear
deoderant and brush their teeth when they show up for work. It is not
uncommon around here to stand in line at a convenience store with your
eyes watering from the guy's BO infront of you. One side of me says
its ultimately their own responsibility for how they dress, look,
smell, etc. But then there is the other side of me that clearly
remembers my mother telling of growing up in rural ME in the 40's-50's
with no running water, no indoor plumbing, one telephone in town, many
had no teeth by the time they were 18, lucky if you could afford a
car, grew/raised your own food, eat your pet chicken when times get
tough, and so on. This was in the 50's, now in 2008 I can leave my
house and drive 20 minutes and visit with people living fairly close
to that point. I am not surprised by it, but they are not living that
life by choice. They dont have the money, confidence, education, or
other resources to simply move to an area where there are jobs. They
have lived lives where deodorant, bad breath, and diction, were the
least of your worries.

The article does a good job addressing what perhaps an educated but
lazy, slacker, from the tv/video generation, born to an affluent
family who just raised a bum and finally kicked him out of the house,
could do if he/she chose to get off their ass and work. It however
doesnt say much for those who have been born and raised poor or low
income, fallen on hard times, may not have gotten through high school,
city or country folk who dont possess "book loynin" and modern day
ettiquate, some miles from the nearest employer, dont have a reliable
car if one at all, etc..

Mark

"GROVER" wrote

> I also watch TCM too much. I can't prove it, but I may hold the record
> for the number of times I've watched Casablanca.I don't know if
> Guiness tabulates such statistics but I must be in the top ten.

"Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into
mine."

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 06:47:19 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Paper routes are one thing, (if you're in an area where delivering
>papers on a bicycle is practicable) but I think that you will find
>that a lot of those other jobs have dried up.

True, but others have taken their place. When I had my TV guide route
(12 years old, anyone old enough to remember them), then two paper
routes, there were no fast food joints. McDonalds came out a few
years later, and I worked there for $.60 per hour. Now most of the
paper delivery is motor routes, but there is a fast food place on
every corner and they are always hiring, usually at a couple of bucks
premium to minimum. Seems like everyone uses yard services now, and
in this area year round, another opportunity that didn't really exist
when I was young. Mall retail has expanded exponentially. That
little downtown movie theatre has turned into two or three multiplex
theatres.

It is all in attitude. You will probably have to have intelligence to
get to be the president of the company, but attitude will get you most
of the way there. Primarily attitude means putting your ego
subserviant to your employer and his stakeholders. It is so simple.

And yes, you can always find an anecdotal situation where an
individual cannot pull himself up, but statistically, I believe there
are more opportunites today to get started then ever.

Frank

When I was a teenager
>it was possible for a high schooler to get a job pumping gas. When
>was the last time you saw a pump jockey? Others the same, either the
>minimum wage is high enough that businessed do without or the job is
>no longer open to minors because it is considered to be "too
>dangerous" by the Powers That Be (folks I know got in all kinds of
>trouble because they let their kid run the slicer in their restaurant
>for example).
>


>
>--

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Max wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family
>>>>> with
>>>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>>>
>>>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>>>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>>>
>>> And if you're 4-F?
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> --John
>>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>>
>> Paper route, lawn work, painting, dog poo poo pickup, run errands
>> for
>> old folks, local hauling (furniture, trash, etc), grease monkey
>> (don't have to be a mechanic to grease cars)
>
> Have you in the last 20 years or so tried to keep food on your table
> and save enough to take college courses doing any of those things

What has the last 20 years got to do with it. My sons have done so.

> And "dog poo pickup"? That's actually a _job_? _Where_?

I live in El Paso and there are several businesses who do that kind of
business. There are also 2 sisters who borrowed the money to buy a long
wheelbase van which they converted into a pet grooming mobile service. It
wasn't long before they split the business and now they each have a van and
use helpers.

>> A lot of the problem young people today have is that while growing
>> up
>> they never learned any skills. By the time my boys reached 14, they
>> could do a good job washing and waxing a car, changing the oil,
>> paint, do lawn care, rough carpentry, replace a faucet washer,
>> unclog
>> a drain.
>> By the time they were 16 they could do the foregoing and: lay bricks
>> &
>> concrete blocks, build a cabinet, apply roofing shingles and/or roll
>> roofing, finish concrete,
>> install ceramic tile, replace faucets.
>
> And knowing how to do all that, can they turn it into income?

Summer jobs mostly and working as helper for self employed plumbers,
electricians, remodelers etc.
(A little research will reveal that there are lots of self employed who work
on weekends) It got them through college.

>> It might be worth mentioning that they never used drugs, smoked,
>> sprayed graffiti, or any of the other myriad assortment of troubles
>> young people can get into.
>>
>> Max
>
> --
> --
> --John

Well, J. Clarke, if you're convinced it can't be done, it can't be done.
Plain as that.
Here's a few suggestions. Go to a community college to get the basic courses
(English, Government, Sociology, Math, etc) out of the way.
It's cheaper at the CCs and the credits can be tranferred. The CCs have
plenty of evening and weekend schedules.
Once you're thru the basics, apply for financial help to pay for the tuition
and books at a regular college/university.
Keep in mind that you may have to attend evenings and weekends in order to
hold down a full time job.
It might take a little longer that way but where do you want to go?
I should mention that there has to be a certain amount of desire to
accomplish these things.
Do you do woodworking. Can you build a few things to make some money,
Adirondack chairs, picnic tables, cabinets, . I turn away lots of work
because it's just a hobby with me but the demand seems to be there. If
you're talking about your kids, can you teach them some skills?
I know a guy who builds model trains out of wood and sells them for $300.

Max

Max took a can of maroon spray paint on February 17, 2008 12:43 pm and wrote
the following:

>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
>>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>>
>>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>>
>> And if you're 4-F?
>>
>> --
>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
> Paper route, lawn work, painting, dog poo poo pickup, run errands for old
> folks, local hauling (furniture, trash, etc), grease monkey (don't have to
> be a mechanic to grease cars)
> A lot of the problem young people today have is that while growing up they
> never learned any skills. By the time my boys reached 14, they could do a
> good job washing and waxing a car, changing the oil, paint, do lawn care,
> rough carpentry, replace a faucet washer, unclog a drain.
> By the time they were 16 they could do the foregoing and: lay bricks &
> concrete blocks, build a cabinet, apply roofing shingles and/or roll
> roofing, finish concrete,
> install ceramic tile, replace faucets.
> It might be worth mentioning that they never used drugs, smoked, sprayed
> graffiti, or any of the other myriad assortment of troubles young people
> can get into.
>
All that while Dad sat with his feet up, watching the tube and drinking
beer.
;-)

--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > So, why is this news?
>
> >http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>
> It's really a promo for his book. That's where he'll make the Real Money.
> Scam anyone?

Oh, for sure... but how did it become 'news'?

It's a "feature" story.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote
>
>> Don't ask me how much vacation time I get. I don' tknow. I just take
>> off
>> whatever time I need. Don't ask me what my hours are either. For the
>> longest time I started at 8 but now I go in roughly at 7 and leave about
>> four, unless I leave at 2. Or unless I go out during the day to get an
>> oil
>> change. I don't consider going to work "work". No plans to retire.
>
> How's the weather, 72 and not a cloud in the sky?
>
> ;)
>

Rain. You don't have to shovel rain

"GROVER" wrote

> TCM occasionally shows an old film which has a similar theme.

That is the ONLY channel I watch on TV with any regularity ... we really
knew how to make movies (and music), before the rise of idiocy.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Robatoy wrote:
> On Feb 15, 11:26 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "GROVER" wrote
>>
>>> I also watch TCM too much. I can't prove it, but I may hold the record
>>> for the number of times I've watched Casablanca.I don't know if
>>> Guiness tabulates such statistics but I must be in the top ten.
>> "Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into
>> mine."
>>
> "Round up the usual suspects."
>

"Gambling? I'm shocked! ... Your winnings sir."

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:4bc2c53b-0e75-47fa-9800-49b3df6a16be@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> We went to a dinner show last night ("Evita", A. L. Webber really
> missed the mark on this one: it's awful--but, then, so was the real
> Eva Peron). As we left, my granddaughter flipped open her cell phone
> (off at the request of the civic center) and checked for messages the
> instant we were out of the theater. 10 p.m.? Who the hell are you
> going to call back then?

Makes me chuckle. After booking, we had to allow that phone call, and after
punching up the number, I used to hand the receiver to the drunk and say
"three thirty" or whatever time.

Lots of them would ask me what that meant. I told them "it's the answer to
the first question you'll hear." Some who had sobered enough opted to call
in the morning.

"Robatoy" wrote

"Swingman" wrote
> "GROVER" wrote
>
> > TCM occasionally shows an old film which has a similar theme.
>
> That is the ONLY channel I watch on TV with any regularity ... we really
> knew how to make movies (and music), before the rise of idiocy.
>
>Sometimes both at the same time, like Casablanca, West Side Story.
>Some of the best movies come out of the $4.99 bin at WalMart.

"To Have and Have Not" ... what a woman that Bacall was, at the tender young
age of 19!

Slim: "You know you don't have to act with me, Steve. You don't have to say
anything, and you don't have to do anything. Not a thing. Oh, maybe just
whistle. You know how to whistle, don't you, Steve? You just put your lips
together and... blow."

IMO, there is nothing in the last 40 years that comes close!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

>The credit card back door doesn't bother me so much as the lack of child
>support, student loans, credit card debt, first and last months rent,
>dependants, and other real life issues that keep the poor, poor. If I
>could've started from zero after college, I'd be doing pretty well right
>now. Instead, 10 years later I still owe 40,000 in student loans and am
>still paying credit cards that I haven't used since graduation. And I don't
>spend frivolously. I don't even own a biscuit joiner for Christ's sake!
>It's not like I bought a Domino with my grocery money!
>
>There, we're back on topic ; )
>
>-MJ

I hear you, bud. I'm with you.

-Zz

But--addiction is a self-inflicted disability. While it would be nice to say
that we want addicts as well as sociopaths, psycopaths and the mentally ill
to have a "place at the table", it is also unrealistic. All the college
education, counseling and social programs in the world are NOT going to help
those unwilling or uncapable of utilizing them. What Adam Shepard did was
show that a reasonably intelligent and motivated individual CAN pick himself
up from nothing. Nothing world shaking there--I've done it myself, and so
have several previous posters on this thread.

Wasn't it John Edwards who said he wanted everyone in America to have above
average incomes?


> > It's news because in our John Edward's two-Americas paradigm, it is
held
> > by most enlightened elites that the working poor in our society are
> > chronically in that condition with no way out of their condition without
> > the help of the government taking away money from other productive
people
> > and giving it to those working poor or through legislation that forces
> > businesses to pay them more or provide free career education or some
other
> > means.
>
> The free market provides the best mechanism for price valuation. It is
> also a zero sum game. Market economies tend to be implemented by
> democracies. Market losers are also voters. The entitlements about
> which you whine serve as preservation for the market system. It's
> telling that EVERY market economy also has an entitlements programs.
> Populist insurrections are easily placated with scraps. The US has the
> stingiest entitlements program among advanced western economies. If
> you don't like them, then this is the country for you.
>
> > What this guy did just set that paradigm on its ear. He showed that by
> > applying common sense and rationality to this condition, he was able to
> > start with nothing and move up.
>
> I'm certainly not going to solve the problem of institutional poverty
> in a usenet post but it seems your paradigm toppling relies on an
> assumption that probably doesn't reflect reality.
>
> I'm not sure why people are impressed by this "experiment." For one
> thing, it doesn't reflect conditions AND it needs a control. In the
> first trial, Adam Shepard carried 25.00, a gym bag AND a college
> education. In other words, that was a control run. Now we may conduct
> an experiment that reflects actual condition. In the next trial, we'll
> need to induce addiction and send Mr. Shepard onto the street in need
> of a fix AND material well-being. In the third trial, we'll damage
> part of his brain in order to create a mental disability. I'll
> withhold judgement until the experiment is complete.
>

On Feb 14, 7:32 pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 14, 7:27 pm, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:28:39 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >I paid for my education.
> > >I paid for my move away from my parents'.
> > >I grew up in a privileged environment.
> > >I didn't like it.
>
> > >Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
> > >kicked my way.
>
> > >So, why is this news?
>
> > >http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>
> > What a load. First of all, if he's trying to make a point that it's
> > possible to work one's way out of poverty, I think he missed it on two
> > major factors: one, he wasn't fighting a psychological disadvantage
> > (i.e., he wasn't drugged up, he wasn't a half bubble off plumb, etc.).
> > Second, he ALWAYS knew where his next meal was coming from so long as
> > he had that credit card in his back pocket.
>
> > There's no trick to any of the stuff he did when you KNOW you don't
> > HAVE to and that you can climb out any time you want to.
>
> > I am so unimpressed.
>
> > Or did I miss something?
>
> No, I don't think you did. He had a safety valve.
>
> I didn't. I had my pride. <G>

The thing is, his generation has always had a safety valve, a credit
card in the back pocket. One of his biggest lacks, a cell phone?
Jesus, I still don't have a cell phone. I may buy a TracFone someday
soon, but to me, a cell phone is just another electronic leash. "Oh,
my boss must value me, 'cause he gave me a beeper!" Yeah. So anytime
he feels like tugging on the leash... I think I was something like 27
before I had a telephone in my own name. It came under the "who needs
it" doctrine. We didn't always feel the need to be "in touch" with
others.

We went to a dinner show last night ("Evita", A. L. Webber really
missed the mark on this one: it's awful--but, then, so was the real
Eva Peron). As we left, my granddaughter flipped open her cell phone
(off at the request of the civic center) and checked for messages the
instant we were out of the theater. 10 p.m.? Who the hell are you
going to call back then?

On Feb 15, 9:07=A0am, Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jeff wrote:
> >In the third trial, we'll damage
> > part of his brain in order to create a mental disability
>
> In other words, you'll make him a collectivist leftie?
>

Lefty, Righty, Centrist. Why not divide people? Race, gender, sexual
orientation is no longer PC, but it is okay to herd them along random
division lines. "He doesn't have all of MY views, so he belongs to the
Other Side."
Even the ones on the 'right' are creating divisions. Hitlery is
supposed to be further to the right than McCain.... if you believe
Coulter.
To divide people along markers/lines which are always in motion and
abstract at best, is pretty counterproductive.
I often wonder if there were 6 democrats and 6 republicans amongst the
Apostles.

Maybe we should divide up the countries along our tastes in foods,
smells.... oh wait...... if you eat goat you're a terrorist, right? I
won't eat it because it tastes awful, not because I don't want to be
labelled a terrorist. An d so on, and so on.

Is there still such a thing as a compassionate conservative? Or did
Bush totally screw that moniker?

On Feb 15, 9:28=A0am, "Rick" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Wasn't it John Edwards who said he wanted everyone in America to have abov=
e
> average incomes?
>
LOL.. work that one out on a pad of graph paper. He actually said
that?


Too funny.

On Feb 14, 6:28=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> I paid for my education.
> I paid for my move away from my parents'.
> I grew up in a privileged environment.
> I didn't like it.
>
> Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
> kicked my way.
>
> So, why is this news?
>
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm

TCM occasionally shows an old film which has a similar theme. That of
a privledged man pretending to be down on his luck for the purpose of
getting a handle on the attitudes of the less fortunate. The film was
set during the depression and featured Joel McRae and Veronica Lake (I
guess that date me). Its worth catching the next time TCM broadcasts
it.
Joe G

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:28:39 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I paid for my education.
>I paid for my move away from my parents'.
>I grew up in a privileged environment.
>I didn't like it.
>
>Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
>kicked my way.
>
>So, why is this news?
>
>http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm

What a load. First of all, if he's trying to make a point that it's
possible to work one's way out of poverty, I think he missed it on two
major factors: one, he wasn't fighting a psychological disadvantage
(i.e., he wasn't drugged up, he wasn't a half bubble off plumb, etc.).
Second, he ALWAYS knew where his next meal was coming from so long as
he had that credit card in his back pocket.

There's no trick to any of the stuff he did when you KNOW you don't
HAVE to and that you can climb out any time you want to.

I am so unimpressed.

Or did I miss something?

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

Charlie Self wrote:
> On Feb 15, 9:28 am, "Rick" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Wasn't it John Edwards who said he wanted everyone in America to have above
>> average incomes?
>
>
> That sounds much more like Dan Quayle.
>

Or Garrison Keeler

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

On Feb 16, 4:31 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Speaking of humble beginings, I had to walk to school 5 miles each
> >> day, up hill both ways.
> >> Joe G
>
> You had school? We had to find a smart person and follow them around.

Not a good line, Ed. Too many easy comebacks.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> The point is, how did you get the promotion when people who had
>>> been
>>> there longer than you had been alive got passed over? What did you
>>> have that they didn't?
>>
>> Ambition, good attitude, common sense, the desire to do better.
>> Some
>> of the people in the deparment were great at the job they did, but
>> had no management skills, nor did they have the interest.
>
> How does one get "management skills" and convince the boss that one
> has them?

Can't give a definitive answer to that. In my case, I was one day summoned
to the office of the plant manager. He had seen me around the plant (I
was doing inventory control) and asked if I wanted to be a part of his team
when he took over as Manufacturing Manager. Two weeks later I had a new
job. Progressive companies are always on the lookout for good workers and
ways to promote them. My shipping supervisor came to us from burger
flipping. He worked in shipping and now runs the department. My maintenance
supervisor was a maintenance and mold setup guy and when his boss moved to
Florida, we gave him a chance.

We reward good people also. Super Christmas bonuses, a weekend trip after
10 years. a 10 day trip of your choice after 15 years (I went to Italy), and
a generally good working atmosphere every day. Very few people quit this
company as we are treated very well.

Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> I paid for my education.
> I paid for my move away from my parents'.
> I grew up in a privileged environment.
> I didn't like it.
>
> Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
> kicked my way.
>
> So, why is this news?
>
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>

It's really a promo for his book. That's where he'll make the Real Money.
Scam anyone?

On Feb 17, 9:05 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Frank Boettcher" wrote
>
> > It is so simple.
>
> I agree ... the willingness to work to "get the job done right", is the
> single thing I see most lacking in those I hire today.
>
> So lacking in fact, that the opposite is "remarkable" in its most precise
> definition.
>
> Success _is_ , eventually, that simple ...
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 12/14/07
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

Yes. I have a SIL who is a wannabee, while the kid supports his sorry
ass (and his kid). Before they were married, he wanted to be a
photographer, but his camera broke and he couldn't afford another. He
managed to get a 60" TV that year, though. He wasn't happy when I
pointed out that a lot of my camera gear was bought in plade of things
like that. We still have a 25" CRT TV (in fairness, neither my wife
nor I watch much TV, so it doesn't matter to us). He wanted to be a
writer, but couldn't sit down long enough to do it (all he does is
f..king sit, fer crissakes!), and when he found out I was a former
Marine, he piped up with, "Marines! I love the discipline." He
wouldn't know discipline if it bit him on the ass. I told him a few
weeks ago he should go check the Marines out; they're taking people up
to at least 34, and he's 32. He looked panicky and chaged the subject.

He tells our daughter it would "demean" him to work for a low wage (8
bucks an hour, I think he was talking about), but it doesn't demean
him to take child support from his son's mother, while living off
another woman.

We discovered we were wrong about his job record. I had thought he
hadn't worked at anything more than two months. Nope. He worked almost
six months in one job.

Ugh. SSOS. AKA sorry sack of shit.

He will fail at any job he attempts. Christ, they're dying for welders
around here. If I were his age, I'd head for the nearest place to
learn torch and stick handling, and start applying. Places are taking
low end welders, paying 12-13 bucks an hour, and training them. Sure,
it's hard work. But it is work you can do well and be proud of.

Ah, pfui. You cannot re-program many of the losers, I'm afraid. Those
that you can, of course, are not really losers, just people
temporarily down on their luck. Those people should be helped.

On Feb 15, 10:55=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "GROVER" wrote
>
> > TCM occasionally shows an old film which has a similar theme.
>
> That is the ONLY channel I watch on TV with any regularity ... we really
> knew how to make movies (and music), before the rise of idiocy.
>
Sometimes both at the same time, like Casablanca, West Side Story.
Some of the best movies come out of the $4.99 bin at WalMart.

On Feb 16, 1:49=A0am, Hank <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in news:2dednfM7z-
> [email protected]:
>
>
>
> > "GROVER" wrote
>
> >> TCM occasionally shows an old film which has a similar theme.
>
> > That is the ONLY channel I watch on TV with any regularity ... we really=

> > knew how to make movies (and music), before the rise of idiocy.
>
> Amen. Did you catch the Burt Lancaster series of movies that were on TCM
> recently?

Yes, I caught Burt Lancaster, he's one of the tops.
Speaking of humble beginings, I had to walk to school 5 miles each
day, up hill both ways.
Joe G

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:28:39 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I paid for my education.
>>I paid for my move away from my parents'.
>>I grew up in a privileged environment.
>>I didn't like it.
>>
>>Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
>>kicked my way.
>>
>>So, why is this news?
>>
>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>
> What a load. First of all, if he's trying to make a point that it's
> possible to work one's way out of poverty, I think he missed it on two
> major factors: one, he wasn't fighting a psychological disadvantage
> (i.e., he wasn't drugged up, he wasn't a half bubble off plumb, etc.).
> Second, he ALWAYS knew where his next meal was coming from so long as
> he had that credit card in his back pocket.
>
> There's no trick to any of the stuff he did when you KNOW you don't
> HAVE to and that you can climb out any time you want to.
>
> I am so unimpressed.
>
> Or did I miss something?
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

The credit card back door doesn't bother me so much as the lack of child
support, student loans, credit card debt, first and last months rent,
dependants, and other real life issues that keep the poor, poor. If I
could've started from zero after college, I'd be doing pretty well right
now. Instead, 10 years later I still owe 40,000 in student loans and am
still paying credit cards that I haven't used since graduation. And I don't
spend frivolously. I don't even own a biscuit joiner for Christ's sake!
It's not like I bought a Domino with my grocery money!

There, we're back on topic ; )

-MJ

On Feb 15, 9:28 am, "Rick" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Wasn't it John Edwards who said he wanted everyone in America to have above
> average incomes?


That sounds much more like Dan Quayle.

Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Feb 14, 6:33 pm, Lobby Dosser <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > I paid for my education.
>> > I paid for my move away from my parents'.
>> > I grew up in a privileged environment.
>> > I didn't like it.
>>
>> > Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
>> > kicked my way.
>>
>> > So, why is this news?
>>
>> >http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>>
>> It's really a promo for his book. That's where he'll make the Real
>> Money. Scam anyone?
>
> Oh, for sure... but how did it become 'news'?
>

His publisher wrote the story (paid somebody) and sent it to the
newspaper. The newspaper filled some space with a FeelGood story.
Happens all the time.

Jeff wrote:
>In the third trial, we'll damage
> part of his brain in order to create a mental disability

In other words, you'll make him a collectivist leftie?

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b7e732c8-6a3b-4565-83fc-8b0bef99a6f2@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 15, 11:26 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "GROVER" wrote
>
> > I also watch TCM too much. I can't prove it, but I may hold the record
> > for the number of times I've watched Casablanca.I don't know if
> > Guiness tabulates such statistics but I must be in the top ten.
>
> "Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into
> mine."
>
> "Round up the usual suspects."

"As the leader of all illegal activities in Casablanca, I am an influential
and respected man."

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Max took a can of maroon spray paint on February 17, 2008 12:43 pm and
> wrote
> the following:
>
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
>>>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>>>
>>>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>>>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>>>
>>> And if you're 4-F?
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> --John
>>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>>
>> Paper route, lawn work, painting, dog poo poo pickup, run errands for old
>> folks, local hauling (furniture, trash, etc), grease monkey (don't have
>> to
>> be a mechanic to grease cars)
>> A lot of the problem young people today have is that while growing up
>> they
>> never learned any skills. By the time my boys reached 14, they could do
>> a
>> good job washing and waxing a car, changing the oil, paint, do lawn care,
>> rough carpentry, replace a faucet washer, unclog a drain.
>> By the time they were 16 they could do the foregoing and: lay bricks &
>> concrete blocks, build a cabinet, apply roofing shingles and/or roll
>> roofing, finish concrete,
>> install ceramic tile, replace faucets.
>> It might be worth mentioning that they never used drugs, smoked, sprayed
>> graffiti, or any of the other myriad assortment of troubles young people
>> can get into.
>>
> All that while Dad sat with his feet up, watching the tube and drinking
> beer.
> ;-)

Usually. But more often it's catering to the whims of his kids. "I don't
want them to work as hard as I did".
"But, Dad, there's a game and we're going to (favorite hangout) after"
"Jimmy doesn't have to do that"
"That was then, this is now". (you old farts had to a lot of things this
generation doesn't)

Max
> Lits Slut #9
> Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Now, if you were the supervisor, there were 44 other people in the
> department who weren't the supervisor. Was that because they were all
> subnormal or because you were in some way exceptional? And how did
> your minimum wage compare to the cost of living?

My minimum wage job was for about 6 months when I got promoted and better
wages. Went from mailroom to Inventory Control, later to Production
Scheduling and supervising a 3 man assembly line and later to the supervisor
of a very interestisng department with job description from punch press,
welder, assembler, inspector, and more. Some of t he guys there werre doing
ther jobs before I was born. They know how to get the job done, I just had
to give them priorites, adjust staffing and the like. No baby sitting
needed.

I was able to buy a newer car with my minimum wage job back then, a 1 year
old Corvair Monza for $1900. When I bought my house, my income that year was
$5800 and my mortgage was $84. Electric bill ran about $10 amonth, heat
about $18.


>
>> Manufacturing related jobs are tough to find. There are, hoerver,
>> good opportunities to people willing to get at least some post high
>> school education. Anything in the medical field has pretty good
>> pay.
>
> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?

My first job was sweeping floors in a grocery store. All through high
school I had some sort of part time job. Many of my friends had paper
routes, as did both of my kids. My son went into the medical field and
started his own business. He borrowed $1000 from my wife. A few eyars
later she asked him if he was every sorry that he did not do better in
school and become a doctor. He replied it would be nice, but now he did not
want to take the pay cut and have to live on a doctor's wages.



>
>> It is difficult for those born with learning problems and the lack
>> of
>> capacity for technical skills. What gets me are the ones that have
>> the ability, yet lack the amition or drive to complete school. I
>> won't hire anyone that has dropped out of high school in recent
>> years
>> unless they have a work record. I've tried them and they don't work
>> out due to poor attendence, poor attitude, lack of ambition. They
>> don't want to follow simple rules.
>
> How do the ones who graduated do?

In general, they do better. We also use some temps, many from other
countires. They have far more drive, ambition, and willingnes than the
typical high school grad locally. They want to succeed and take pride in
what they do. Many of the jobs I offer are low skill level and that is one
of the harder areas to find reliable workers.



>
> Sounds like he's got a screw loose for accumulating 2000 bucks in
> fines to begin with.

Hey, don't knock the guy. After all, he did his time for the murder (bar
fight) and doesn't drink any more either.

We have a young guy now that has paid up most of the $7000 in fines and
costs in three different states too. Most of his were motorcycle related,
such as traveling 100+ mph doing a wheelie. Good mechanic though, and has
never killed anyone. And he's only gotten two girls pregnant.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> The point is, how did you get the promotion when people who had been
> there longer than you had been alive got passed over? What did you
> have that they didn't?

Ambition, good attitude, common sense, the desire to do better. Some of the
people in the deparment were great at the job they did, but had no
management skills, nor did they have the interest. There are millions of
workers that do a good job, but that is all they want to do. Punch in, work,
punch out. No thinking required. It was a union shop and they did have
some security. That security and good union wage went away when the company
moved south to cut costs.



>
>> I was able to buy a newer car with my minimum wage job back then, a
>> 1
>> year old Corvair Monza for $1900. When I bought my house, my income
>> that year was $5800 and my mortgage was $84. Electric bill ran
>> about
>> $10 amonth, heat about $18.
> So how much was your wage then?

As stated, my income for the year was $5800, or $111 a week. That included
some overtime. Base was probably $90 a week or so.

As a side note, Social Security sends you an annual summary of your
earnings. We could live well for a year back then on what is now a month's
pay.



>
> Paper routes are one thing, (if you're in an area where delivering
> papers on a bicycle is practicable) but I think that you will find
> that a lot of those other jobs have dried up. When I was a teenager
> it was possible for a high schooler to get a job pumping gas. When
> was the last time you saw a pump jockey? Others the same, either the
> minimum wage is high enough that businessed do without or the job is
> no longer open to minors because it is considered to be "too
> dangerous" by the Powers That Be (folks I know got in all kinds of
> trouble because they let their kid run the slicer in their restaurant
> for example).


In high school I did sometimes work the meat counter and use the slicer. I
was 16 at the time. Now you have to be 18. I wokred 2 hours a day M-F and
8 on Saturday. Most of the small stores are gone but fast food takes at
least some of their place.


Some of the jobs are gone, but many parents don't want their kids to work,
but to play organized sports and take music lessons and other activities
that keep them busy. I had to buy my own car; too many parents give the kids
a car and unwittingly take away a lot of incentive to do well in life.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote
> >
> >> Don't ask me how much vacation time I get. I don' tknow. I just take
> >> off
> >> whatever time I need. Don't ask me what my hours are either. For the
> >> longest time I started at 8 but now I go in roughly at 7 and leave
about
> >> four, unless I leave at 2. Or unless I go out during the day to get an
> >> oil
> >> change. I don't consider going to work "work". No plans to retire.
> >
> > How's the weather, 72 and not a cloud in the sky?
> >
> > ;)
> >
>
> Rain. You don't have to shovel rain

Sorry to hear that ... at first it sounded like "Pleasantville", where are
basketball shots go "swish". :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Owen Lawrence" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:7d4tj.5384$Uq4.1268@trndny02...
>> Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I paid for my education.
>>> I paid for my move away from my parents'.
>>> I grew up in a privileged environment.
>>> I didn't like it.
>>>
>>> Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
>>> kicked my way.
>>>
>>> So, why is this news?
>>>
>>> http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>>>
>>
>> It's really a promo for his book. That's where he'll make the Real
>> Money. Scam anyone?
>
> I don't see why you should label it a scam. He actually did what he
> did, and now he's leveraging his experience to create a saleable
> product. What's wrong with that?
>
> - Owen -
>
>
>

Did he do it to prove it could be done or to make big bucks from the sale
od a book? I bet the latter, but I'm a cynic.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> A lot of the problem young people today have is that while growing
>> up
>> they never learned any skills. By the time my boys reached 14, they
>> could do a good job washing and waxing a car, changing the oil,
>> paint, do lawn care, rough carpentry, replace a faucet washer,
>> unclog
>> a drain.
>> By the time they were 16 they could do the foregoing and: lay bricks
>> &
>> concrete blocks, build a cabinet, apply roofing shingles and/or roll
>> roofing, finish concrete,
>> install ceramic tile, replace faucets.
>
> And knowing how to do all that, can they turn it into income?

Income? How about a great income if you want to be a handyman type and
build a good reputation. Lots of cash jobs too.

I've know a couple of guys that never had a "job", but always had something
going on and plenty of money. They did not socialize with the Chablis and
brie crowd, but sure make a good living from them.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> If someone decides to spend a lot of money for
>> education to become a social activist in a low paying job, that is
>> there choice also.
>
> You really think that someone goes to law school intending to become a
> public defender (to take one example)? You take the best offer you
> get, if you don't get a good offer then you either take a bad one or
> starve.

There are people with lots of education that choose to go into a career that
does not pay well, but can be rewarding in other ways. I mentioned social
activist as there are people th at are trying to help others for the
satisfaction, not hte money. Musicians and artists come to mind. If they
make it big, good for them, but most don't. They could have been lawyers if
theyw anted to be so when they can't make a living I don't feel sorry for
them.



>
> Some people have choices, some don't. You apparently got a pretty
> good job early on. How many jobs that good are open to people today
> who have only high-school educations?

My first job out of school was minimum wage. I worked all the OT I could
get. A few years later I was a supervisor in a department of 45 people.
The company moved south and I was out of work. My experience allowed me to
find other decent paying jobs.

Manufacturing related jobs are tough to find. There are, hoerver, good
opportunities to people willing to get at least some post high school
education. Anything in the medical field has pretty good pay.

It is difficult for those born with learning problems and the lack of
capacity for technical skills. What gets me are the ones that have the
ability, yet lack the amition or drive to complete school. I won't hire
anyone that has dropped out of high school in recent years unless they have
a work record. I've tried them and they don't work out due to poor
attendence, poor attitude, lack of ambition. They don't want to follow
simple rules.

I can tell you stories. One guy, 40 years old, had no driver's license and
he needed $2000 to pay off his fines to get it back. He complained about
the lack of opportunity in his now short commutning distance, etc. I sat him
down and shoed how fast he could earn that money by coming in early and
working 2 hours of overtime a day. Open a special saving account, put hte
extra money into it and gain independence. Nope, he thought it would be too
much time at work. Should we feel worry for him?

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What a load. First of all, if he's trying to make a point that it's
> possible to work one's way out of poverty, I think he missed it on two
> major factors: one, he wasn't fighting a psychological disadvantage
> (i.e., he wasn't drugged up, he wasn't a half bubble off plumb, etc.).
> Second, he ALWAYS knew where his next meal was coming from so long as
> he had that credit card in his back pocket.
>
> There's no trick to any of the stuff he did when you KNOW you don't
> HAVE to and that you can climb out any time you want to.
>
> I am so unimpressed.
>
> Or did I miss something?
>

Yep.

Think about it. HE did it, SHE didn't. Difference is attitude. She was
out to make a case for eternal poverty, he out to make a case for
bootstrapping.

Don't let your prejudices get in the way, or you might miss something.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote

> Don't ask me how much vacation time I get. I don' tknow. I just take off
> whatever time I need. Don't ask me what my hours are either. For the
> longest time I started at 8 but now I go in roughly at 7 and leave about
> four, unless I leave at 2. Or unless I go out during the day to get an oil
> change. I don't consider going to work "work". No plans to retire.

How's the weather, 72 and not a cloud in the sky?

;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Jeff <[email protected]> wrote in
news:e155efc4-0b54-49bc-bb72-66671eed38e3@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> On Feb 14, 9:16 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:
>> > I paid for my education.
>> > I paid for my move away from my parents'.
>> > I grew up in a privileged environment.
>> > I didn't like it.
>>
>> > Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
>> > kicked my way.
>>
>> > So, why is this news?
>>
>> >http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>>
>> It's news because in our John Edward's two-Americas paradigm, it is
>> held
>> by most enlightened elites that the working poor in our society are
>> chronically in that condition with no way out of their condition
>> without the help of the government taking away money from other
>> productive people and giving it to those working poor or through
>> legislation that forces businesses to pay them more or provide free
>> career education or some other means.
>
> The free market provides the best mechanism for price valuation. It is
> also a zero sum game. Market economies tend to be implemented by
> democracies. Market losers are also voters. The entitlements about
> which you whine serve as preservation for the market system. It's
> telling that EVERY market economy also has an entitlements programs.
> Populist insurrections are easily placated with scraps. The US has the
> stingiest entitlements program among advanced western economies. If
> you don't like them, then this is the country for you.
>
>> What this guy did just set that paradigm on its ear. He showed that
>> by
>> applying common sense and rationality to this condition, he was able
>> to start with nothing and move up.
>
> I'm certainly not going to solve the problem of institutional poverty
> in a usenet post but it seems your paradigm toppling relies on an
> assumption that probably doesn't reflect reality.
>
> I'm not sure why people are impressed by this "experiment." For one
> thing, it doesn't reflect conditions AND it needs a control. In the
> first trial, Adam Shepard carried 25.00, a gym bag AND a college
> education. In other words, that was a control run. Now we may conduct
> an experiment that reflects actual condition. In the next trial, we'll
> need to induce addiction and send Mr. Shepard onto the street in need
> of a fix AND material well-being. In the third trial, we'll damage
> part of his brain in order to create a mental disability. I'll
> withhold judgement until the experiment is complete.
>

Hmmm. I'm not sure what institutional poverty is, but I do remember what
poverty was. I wonder where I fit in to your control groups. I certainly
wasn't a college graduate with a gym bag and twenty-five dollars although
I could make as much as sixty to sixty-five dollars a week picking
tobacco during the summer (actually I only made that much during the
fifth and sixth picks which lasted about two weeks. The rest of the time
I made twenty to thirty-five dollars a week). Pretty good pay for a high
school kid. The rest of the year I made about twenty bucks a week after
school. My pay always went to my mother to help support my brother and
sister (my brother worked also, but my sister was too young). My father
was a very unsuccessful burgler and we hadn't seen him since I was about
six or seven. I wasn't addicted to anything except girls. So I guess I
am/was brain damaged. I was asked to leave high school at sixteen. I was
somewhat of an asshole at that time (probably still am), but a
hardworking asshole. I got my first full time job, at one dollar and ten
cents an hour, running drying machines at a diaper service. This was
minimum wage plus ten percent. I decided during that period that I was
not going to be poor and I'm not.

Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:55790688-f0e9-4622-b6f1-
[email protected]:

> On Feb 15, 9:07 am, Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>> >In the third trial, we'll damage
>> > part of his brain in order to create a mental disability
>>
>> In other words, you'll make him a collectivist leftie?
>>
>
> Lefty, Righty, Centrist. Why not divide people? Race, gender, sexual
> orientation is no longer PC, but it is okay to herd them along random
> division lines. "He doesn't have all of MY views, so he belongs to the
> Other Side."
> Even the ones on the 'right' are creating divisions. Hitlery is
> supposed to be further to the right than McCain.... if you believe
> Coulter.
> To divide people along markers/lines which are always in motion and
> abstract at best, is pretty counterproductive.
> I often wonder if there were 6 democrats and 6 republicans amongst the
> Apostles.
>
> Maybe we should divide up the countries along our tastes in foods,
> smells.... oh wait...... if you eat goat you're a terrorist, right? I
> won't eat it because it tastes awful, not because I don't want to be
> labelled a terrorist. An d so on, and so on.
>
> Is there still such a thing as a compassionate conservative? Or did
> Bush totally screw that moniker?
>

Wrong! If you eat goat you're a Jamaican, Mexican or an American with frog
roots like me (French Canadian for the PC). Try goat Jamaican goat stew or
grilled cabrito (sp?). If you eat donkey, you're either a Turk or a
terrorist.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in news:2dednfM7z-
[email protected]:

>
> "GROVER" wrote
>
>> TCM occasionally shows an old film which has a similar theme.
>
> That is the ONLY channel I watch on TV with any regularity ... we really
> knew how to make movies (and music), before the rise of idiocy.
>

Amen. Did you catch the Burt Lancaster series of movies that were on TCM
recently?

"Mark Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:28:39 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>I paid for my education.
>>>I paid for my move away from my parents'.
>>>I grew up in a privileged environment.
>>>I didn't like it.
>>>
>>>Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
>>>kicked my way.
>>>
>>>So, why is this news?
>>>
>>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>>
>> What a load. First of all, if he's trying to make a point that it's
>> possible to work one's way out of poverty, I think he missed it on
>> two major factors: one, he wasn't fighting a psychological
>> disadvantage (i.e., he wasn't drugged up, he wasn't a half bubble off
>> plumb, etc.). Second, he ALWAYS knew where his next meal was coming
>> from so long as he had that credit card in his back pocket.
>>
>> There's no trick to any of the stuff he did when you KNOW you don't
>> HAVE to and that you can climb out any time you want to.
>>
>> I am so unimpressed.
>>
>> Or did I miss something?
>>
>> --
>> LRod
>>
>> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> The credit card back door doesn't bother me so much as the lack of
> child support, student loans, credit card debt, first and last months
> rent, dependants, and other real life issues that keep the poor, poor.
> If I could've started from zero after college, I'd be doing pretty
> well right now. Instead, 10 years later I still owe 40,000 in student
> loans and am still paying credit cards that I haven't used since
> graduation. And I don't spend frivolously. I don't even own a
> biscuit joiner for Christ's sake! It's not like I bought a Domino with
> my grocery money!
>
> There, we're back on topic ; )
>
> -MJ
>
>

I went back to school after I left the military (early sixties). There
was no GI bill nor student loans. There were two jobs (waiter and gas
pump jockey).

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> The credit card back door doesn't bother me so much as the lack of
>>>> child support, student loans, credit card debt, first and last
>>>> months rent, dependants, and other real life issues that keep the
>>>> poor, poor.
>>
>> I think almost all of these situations are self imposed. Kids are
>> getting pregnant and the father (when known) has no means of
>> supporting the child. The easy solution is to prevent pregnancy.
>> Sutdent loans? No one is forced totake them out so when you
>> graduate
>> and get that 80k job, make the payments. You could have gone into
>> the trades and made a good living without the loans. Credit card
>> debt is 100% self imposed. I can't speak for the first and last
>> month rent thing as I've never paid rent. I bought my first house
>> when I was 20 years old. Oh, I did have dependents at that time
>> also, but they were not children. I supported my mother and
>> grandmother.
>
> My hats off to you for all of this but I suspect that you had a
> different upbringing from most people, or perhaps an unusual degree of
> aptitude in some area in which most people are lacking.
>
>>>> If I could've started from zero after college, I'd be doing
>>>> pretty
>>>> well right now. Instead, 10 years later I still owe 40,000 in
>>>> student loans and am still paying credit cards that I haven't used
>>>> since graduation. And I don't spend frivolously. I don't even
>>>> own
>>>> a biscuit joiner for Christ's sake! It's not like I bought a
>>>> Domino
>>>> with my grocery money!
>>>>
>>>> There, we're back on topic ; )
>>>>
>>>> -MJ
>>
>> Evidently you valued your education enough to spend the money for
>> it.
>> I'd hope to recoup my college costs by getting a job that pays well
>> in the future.
>
> Many people hope that. Some achieve it.
>
>> If someone decides to spend a lot of money for
>> education to become a social activist in a low paying job, that is
>> there choice also.
>
> You really think that someone goes to law school intending to become a
> public defender (to take one example)? You take the best offer you
> get, if you don't get a good offer then you either take a bad one or
> starve.
>
>> I went to a low cost state school and only took
>> courses as I could afford to do so. Rather than live in a college
>> dorm, I lived in my own house that was bought with my own money. We
>> have choices.
>
> Some people have choices, some don't. You apparently got a pretty
> good job early on. How many jobs that good are open to people today
> who have only high-school educations?
>
>> If you are still paying credit card debt after 10 years you should
>> be
>> looking into better ways of managing debt. At least you have the
>> backbone to pay your debts rather that join the bankruptcy craze to
>> bail out of obligations.
>

Yes, some people went to law school to become a public defender. A public
defender doesn't do that bad. I knew many true believers that had that
career in mind and many more whom studied for degrees in social work.
Another high paying job, but not as good as public defender.
I don't understand people that pleasure in putting down others that had
the initiative take charge of their lives. Student loans are loans and
should be repaid. Bitching about repaying them is the same as bithing
about repaying your mortgage. Credit card debt for a student is pure
stupidity.
You may not see this since you plonked me some time ago.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>
>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>
> And if you're 4-F?
>

Then you're fucked and have no hope to be any kind of success in life.

"George" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
>>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>>
>>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>>
>> And if you're 4-F?
>>
>
> You check carefully, because there isn't a draft, nor draft physicals,
> nor physical classifications.
>
> As I said earlier, a self-initializing individual with desire and
> effort will find a way, but it's sure difficult, after reading
> responses, to figure out why. If you are confident of failure, you'll
> find it, and if you lack a way to fail, or an excuse for failure, this
> bunch will find one for you.
>
>
>

Amen.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:0d%[email protected]:

>
> "Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Usually. But more often it's catering to the whims of his kids. "I
>> don't want them to work as hard as I did".
>> "But, Dad, there's a game and we're going to (favorite hangout)
>> after" "Jimmy doesn't have to do that"
>> "That was then, this is now". (you old farts had to a lot of things
>> this generation doesn't)
>
> And them things we had can not be bought with any amount of money.
>
>
>

Character?

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> George wrote:
>
>>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
>>>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>>>
>>>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>>>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>>>
>>> And if you're 4-F?
>>>
>>
>> You check carefully, because there isn't a draft, nor draft physicals,
>> nor
>> physical classifications.
>>
>> As I said earlier, a self-initializing individual with desire and effort
>> will find a way, but it's sure difficult, after reading responses, to
>> figure
>> out why. If you are confident of failure, you'll find it, and if you
>> lack
>> a way to fail, or an excuse for failure, this bunch will find one for
>> you.
>
> Seems to be symptomatic of our society as a whole; in our rush to be
> tolerant, understanding, and compassionate, we have, as a whole, developed
> a tolerance and sympathy for failure -- even if that failure is based upon
> poor choices made early on or a lack of drive or motivation. That's not
> necessarily bad in itself, but the corollary and conclusion that follows
> is
> that those who did not make poor choices but who sacrificed and exhibited
> drive and motivation are expected to not only pick up the slack for those
> who did not but also to share the fruits of their labors with them as
> well.
>
>

Not to mention being branded as "privileged" or "advantaged" as if nothing
they do or did counted for anything except greater tax liability.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>>
>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>
> And if you're 4-F?
>

You check carefully, because there isn't a draft, nor draft physicals, nor
physical classifications.

As I said earlier, a self-initializing individual with desire and effort
will find a way, but it's sure difficult, after reading responses, to figure
out why. If you are confident of failure, you'll find it, and if you lack a
way to fail, or an excuse for failure, this bunch will find one for you.

"Lobby Dosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7d4tj.5384$Uq4.1268@trndny02...
> Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I paid for my education.
>> I paid for my move away from my parents'.
>> I grew up in a privileged environment.
>> I didn't like it.
>>
>> Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
>> kicked my way.
>>
>> So, why is this news?
>>
>> http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>>
>
> It's really a promo for his book. That's where he'll make the Real Money.
> Scam anyone?

I don't see why you should label it a scam. He actually did what he did,
and now he's leveraging his experience to create a saleable product. What's
wrong with that?

- Owen -

On Feb 15, 11:26=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "GROVER" =A0wrote
>
> > I also watch TCM too much. I can't prove it, but I may hold the record
> > for the number of times I've watched Casablanca.I don't know if
> > Guiness tabulates such statistics but I must be in the top ten.
>
> "Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into=

> mine."
>
"Round up the usual suspects."

On Feb 16, 11:32=A0am, GROVER <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 16, 1:49=A0am, Hank <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in news:2dednfM7z-
> > [email protected]:
>
> > > "GROVER" wrote
>
> > >> TCM occasionally shows an old film which has a similar theme.
>
> > > That is the ONLY channel I watch on TV with any regularity ... we real=
ly
> > > knew how to make movies (and music), before the rise of idiocy.
>
> > Amen. Did you catch the Burt Lancaster series of movies that were on TCM=

> > recently?
>
> Yes, I caught Burt Lancaster, he's one of the tops.
> Speaking of humble beginings, I had to walk to school 5 miles each
> day, up hill both ways.
> Joe G

Well, you didn't have to fight off lions and cross rivers like I did.

On Feb 14, 6:33=A0pm, Lobby Dosser <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I paid for my education.
> > I paid for my move away from my parents'.
> > I grew up in a privileged environment.
> > I didn't like it.
>
> > Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
> > kicked my way.
>
> > So, why is this news?
>
> >http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>
> It's really a promo for his book. That's where he'll make the Real Money.
> Scam anyone?

Oh, for sure... but how did it become 'news'?

On Feb 17, 1:31 pm, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Max took a can of maroon spray paint on February 17, 2008 12:43 pm and
> > wrote
> > the following:
>
> >> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>> Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
> >>>> J. Clarke wrote:
> >>>>> But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
> >>>>> money then how do you get that post-high-school education?
>
> >>>> You join the army, save some money, put in your time, get your
> >>>> education benefits and then go to school.... Rod
>
> >>> And if you're 4-F?
>
> >>> --
> >>> --
> >>> --John
> >>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> >>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
> >> Paper route, lawn work, painting, dog poo poo pickup, run errands for old
> >> folks, local hauling (furniture, trash, etc), grease monkey (don't have
> >> to
> >> be a mechanic to grease cars)
> >> A lot of the problem young people today have is that while growing up
> >> they
> >> never learned any skills. By the time my boys reached 14, they could do
> >> a
> >> good job washing and waxing a car, changing the oil, paint, do lawn care,
> >> rough carpentry, replace a faucet washer, unclog a drain.
> >> By the time they were 16 they could do the foregoing and: lay bricks &
> >> concrete blocks, build a cabinet, apply roofing shingles and/or roll
> >> roofing, finish concrete,
> >> install ceramic tile, replace faucets.
> >> It might be worth mentioning that they never used drugs, smoked, sprayed
> >> graffiti, or any of the other myriad assortment of troubles young people
> >> can get into.
>
> > All that while Dad sat with his feet up, watching the tube and drinking
> > beer.
> > ;-)
>
> Usually. But more often it's catering to the whims of his kids. "I don't
> want them to work as hard as I did".
> "But, Dad, there's a game and we're going to (favorite hangout) after"
> "Jimmy doesn't have to do that"
> "That was then, this is now". (you old farts had to a lot of things this
> generation doesn't)
>
> Max
>
> > Lits Slut #9
> > Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.

Yeah, we did. If I wanted a car, my father was willing to sell me one.
For $50. It was worth nearly that, but I learned how to keep it
running, and used it for a full year, with two lessons in lower end
rebuilding (Stude 6, '50, absolutely gawdawful bottom end, weak as
hell). I worked after school, first doing things like chipping masonry
off bricks (guy bought an immense number of used brick to build an
immense patio) andhelping to lay them in sand, delivering papers (on
foot), helping load and unload a truck (neighbor owned a small
trucking firm, and started taking me along at 14), then on to pumping
gas, greasing cars, learning to do tune-ups (point ignition back then,
of course), liking putting chains on in the winter (charge half a
buck, get a half a buck tip, especially if it was snowing or sleeting
hard), carpenter's helper, gofer in a machine shop, and then into the
Corps. I know I've forgotten a few, and that list doesn't include the
jobs I held through college to pay the bills.

What the hell. I didn't get rich or even particularly comfortable--I
still work 30-40 hours a week--but I damned well worked.

Leadership skills. No way. I think I hit my true top level as a leader
with corporal's stripes.

On Feb 15, 2:38=A0pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 15, 11:37=A0am, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Frankly, I would think that having that credit card would have made his
> > experiment more difficult because he knew he had it, knew it was there a=
nd
> > that he could use it anytime (sort of like the system you reference abov=
e).
> > Seems that would have been a very great temptation any time that the goi=
ng
> > got a bit tough.
>
> This would be like saying that climbing a 1000' vertical rock face
> using ropes/saftey lines would be "more difficult" as oppossed to free
> climbing it (no saftey gear whatsoever). This is actually a perfect
> scenario analagous to the OP.
>
> If you were to climb the face with saftey lines/ropes you would move
> quicker, take steps with confidence, perhaps take a few riskier hand/
> foot holds than you would, your heart would pound less, you may take
> time out to relax and look around, your lungs would operate more
> efficiently, experience less fatigue, the list is endless. You would
> get to the top faster, and taken less toll on your body, period.
>
> Now climb the face with no saftey equipment, you will second, third,
> fourth, tenth guess every move becase its life or death, this stress
> will likely cause you to make less than optimal decisions, you would
> move exponentially slower, your heart would pound rapidly putting
> untold amounts of additional stress on your body, your entire
> physiology would opperate less efficiently. You would get there far
> slower if at all and perhaps die trying.
>
> Now, go even farther, say the first climber is the guy in the article,
> he is an experienced climber (experienced, educated, confident, at
> what he was doing). Try it with a novice climber, then with someone
> who has never even hiked. Then with someone who has a fear of heights.
> Then with someone who is 60lbs overweight. Plot the results of
> climbing the rock, and out of poverty, on a graph and I would venture
> a guess that the two would take very similar tracks.
>
> Furtermore the thought that the card would make it harder flies in the
> face of every medical study published regarding stress, health, and
> decision making. There are countless reems of data chronicling how
> constant stress (worry) is debilitating, detrimental to sound decision
> making, and can in fact cause and fertilize disease. Possesion of this
> card voids that stress in the short and long term (perhaps when he
> max's it out things will change hehe). His education voids that
> stress. His knowing that no matter what the outcome of this experiment
> he has a home, family, earning potential, voids that stress. Its like
> jumping between two tractor trailers going 60mph side by side on a
> reality show. The fear is mitigated by the rigging and saftey gear you
> are wearing, whether you succeed or fail, you are not falling to the
> roadway to be ground up into bits. The show will not allow that to
> happen, so just go ahead and jump, who cares. The only bad outcome is
> that you dont win.
>
> I see both sides with regards to the book/article. I find it very
> short sighted yet I do agree that there are a lot of lazy people out
> there who are more than willing to take something for nothing so they
> dont have to get off their asses. I do however agree with many of the
> other posters that coming up from abject poverty is far more difficult
> than this article/book tries to make it sound. This is another one of
> those "mile in his shoes" things. People who havent been through it,
> and even some who have, dont often take all aspects into
> consideration.
>
> Mark

That analogy works for me. Where's the danger when there's a net?

On Feb 14, 9:16 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > I paid for my education.
> > I paid for my move away from my parents'.
> > I grew up in a privileged environment.
> > I didn't like it.
>
> > Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
> > kicked my way.
>
> > So, why is this news?
>
> >http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>
> It's news because in our John Edward's two-Americas paradigm, it is held
> by most enlightened elites that the working poor in our society are
> chronically in that condition with no way out of their condition without
> the help of the government taking away money from other productive people
> and giving it to those working poor or through legislation that forces
> businesses to pay them more or provide free career education or some other
> means.

The free market provides the best mechanism for price valuation. It is
also a zero sum game. Market economies tend to be implemented by
democracies. Market losers are also voters. The entitlements about
which you whine serve as preservation for the market system. It's
telling that EVERY market economy also has an entitlements programs.
Populist insurrections are easily placated with scraps. The US has the
stingiest entitlements program among advanced western economies. If
you don't like them, then this is the country for you.

> What this guy did just set that paradigm on its ear. He showed that by
> applying common sense and rationality to this condition, he was able to
> start with nothing and move up.

I'm certainly not going to solve the problem of institutional poverty
in a usenet post but it seems your paradigm toppling relies on an
assumption that probably doesn't reflect reality.

I'm not sure why people are impressed by this "experiment." For one
thing, it doesn't reflect conditions AND it needs a control. In the
first trial, Adam Shepard carried 25.00, a gym bag AND a college
education. In other words, that was a control run. Now we may conduct
an experiment that reflects actual condition. In the next trial, we'll
need to induce addiction and send Mr. Shepard onto the street in need
of a fix AND material well-being. In the third trial, we'll damage
part of his brain in order to create a mental disability. I'll
withhold judgement until the experiment is complete.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 22:09:27 -0600, Tim Daneliuk
<[email protected]> wrote:

>LRod wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:28:39 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I paid for my education.
>>> I paid for my move away from my parents'.
>>> I grew up in a privileged environment.
>>> I didn't like it.
>>>
>>> Whatever it is I am today, was put together without a dime being
>>> kicked my way.
>>>
>>> So, why is this news?
>>>
>>> http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0211/p13s02-wmgn.htm
>>
>> What a load. First of all, if he's trying to make a point that it's
>> possible to work one's way out of poverty, I think he missed it on two
>> major factors: one, he wasn't fighting a psychological disadvantage
>> (i.e., he wasn't drugged up, he wasn't a half bubble off plumb, etc.).
>> Second, he ALWAYS knew where his next meal was coming from so long as
>> he had that credit card in his back pocket.
>>
>> There's no trick to any of the stuff he did when you KNOW you don't
>> HAVE to and that you can climb out any time you want to.
>>
>> I am so unimpressed.
>>
>> Or did I miss something?
>>
>
>Yes, you're missing a whole lot...

I said the "experiment" was unimpressive. What part of that did I
miss?

>...I made it through college and grad school...

I'm amazed that you did, what with that debillitating reading
impairment you have.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
http://www.normstools.com

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

On Feb 15, 10:59=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 15, 10:55=A0am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:> "GROVER" wrote=

>
> > > TCM occasionally shows an old film which has a similar theme.
>
> > That is the ONLY channel I watch on TV with any regularity ... we really=

> > knew how to make movies (and music), before the rise of idiocy.
>
> Sometimes both at the same time, like Casablanca, West Side Story.
> Some of the best movies come out of the $4.99 bin at WalMart.

To Robatoy,

I also watch TCM too much. I can't prove it, but I may hold the record
for the number of times I've watched Casablanca.I don't know if
Guiness tabulates such statistics but I must be in the top ten.
Joe G

"Tim Daneliuk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On Feb 15, 11:26 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "GROVER" wrote
> >>
> >>> I also watch TCM too much. I can't prove it, but I may hold the record
> >>> for the number of times I've watched Casablanca.I don't know if
> >>> Guiness tabulates such statistics but I must be in the top ten.
> >> "Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks
into
> >> mine."
> >>
> > "Round up the usual suspects."
> >
>
> "Gambling? I'm shocked! ... Your winnings sir."

Enuff of this ... I'm ending with my favorite, all time, movie line: Jack
Nicholson in "As Good As It Gets" when asked how he, as a male writer,
develops his women characters:

"I think of a man, then remove all reason and accountability".

Back to work ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

>> Speaking of humble beginings, I had to walk to school 5 miles each
>> day, up hill both ways.
>> Joe G

You had school? We had to find a smart person and follow them around.

On Feb 18, 9:44=A0am, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Max (that's it for me, your attitude is depressing)

(Taking Max aside for a little friendly advice... Dude... see this
wall here? Now go smack your head against it till it bleeds. That is
what 'discussing' things with Clarke gets you... a head ache. Nothing
more. You are wasting your time.)

Robatoy wrote:
> On Feb 15, 9:07 am, Tim Daneliuk <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Jeff wrote:
>>> In the third trial, we'll damage
>>> part of his brain in order to create a mental disability
>> In other words, you'll make him a collectivist leftie?
>>
>
> Lefty, Righty, Centrist. Why not divide people? Race, gender, sexual

Because it's fun, that's why.

> orientation is no longer PC, but it is okay to herd them along random
> division lines. "He doesn't have all of MY views, so he belongs to the
> Other Side."
> Even the ones on the 'right' are creating divisions. Hitlery is
> supposed to be further to the right than McCain.... if you believe
> Coulter.
> To divide people along markers/lines which are always in motion and
> abstract at best, is pretty counterproductive.

That's the point. Liberty is best preserved when the political
slime are placed in at least nominal opposition to each other
and thus waste all their time arguing while the rest of us live
our lives. I do not care a whit who wins the US election - there
is no substantive difference between/among any of them. I merely
want one party in the executive branch and another to have majority
in the legislative branch. Thereafter, their innate tribalism will
take hold, they will argue endlessly about nothing, and then accomplish
nothing ... a perfect model.


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk [email protected]
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/

Mark & Juanita wrote:
...
> would ruin the rest of his life for the sake of an experiment. What those
> criticizing him for this detail seemed to have missed is that he indicated
> that his rule was that if he used the card, the experiment was over.
> Frankly, I would think that having that credit card would have made his
> experiment more difficult because he knew he had it, knew it was there and
> that he could use it anytime (sort of like the system you reference above).
> Seems that would have been a very great temptation any time that the going
> got a bit tough.

The whole thing is a put-up job, not an "experiment" at all imo. It is
flawed from conception owing to there being no negative outcome possible
in a real sense of an actual outcome of other than the participant
choosing to withdraw from the experiment.

One cannot also remove from the subject the innate lessons learned by
his previous X number of years of relative affluence, education, etc.,
etc., as others have previously at least alluded to.

All in all, it is of no real value for any rational discussion of the
cures for poverty and/or welfare/assistance.

There are those who are born in the worst of conditions who do, despite
the odds, manage to persevere; siblings may (and most often do) succumb.
It is, like most other human activities, controlled by personal deeds
and actions and those are highly individualistic.

One can tend to produce better outcomes w/ better inputs, but such
artificial examples don't have anything to teach us imo.

$0.02, etc., ...

--

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>> The credit card back door doesn't bother me so much as the lack of
>>> child support, student loans, credit card debt, first and last
>>> months rent, dependants, and other real life issues that keep the
>>> poor, poor.
>
> I think almost all of these situations are self imposed. Kids are
> getting pregnant and the father (when known) has no means of
> supporting the child. The easy solution is to prevent pregnancy.
> Sutdent loans? No one is forced totake them out so when you
> graduate
> and get that 80k job, make the payments. You could have gone into
> the trades and made a good living without the loans. Credit card
> debt is 100% self imposed. I can't speak for the first and last
> month rent thing as I've never paid rent. I bought my first house
> when I was 20 years old. Oh, I did have dependents at that time
> also, but they were not children. I supported my mother and
> grandmother.

My hats off to you for all of this but I suspect that you had a
different upbringing from most people, or perhaps an unusual degree of
aptitude in some area in which most people are lacking.

>>> If I could've started from zero after college, I'd be doing
>>> pretty
>>> well right now. Instead, 10 years later I still owe 40,000 in
>>> student loans and am still paying credit cards that I haven't used
>>> since graduation. And I don't spend frivolously. I don't even
>>> own
>>> a biscuit joiner for Christ's sake! It's not like I bought a
>>> Domino
>>> with my grocery money!
>>>
>>> There, we're back on topic ; )
>>>
>>> -MJ
>
> Evidently you valued your education enough to spend the money for
> it.
> I'd hope to recoup my college costs by getting a job that pays well
> in the future.

Many people hope that. Some achieve it.

> If someone decides to spend a lot of money for
> education to become a social activist in a low paying job, that is
> there choice also.

You really think that someone goes to law school intending to become a
public defender (to take one example)? You take the best offer you
get, if you don't get a good offer then you either take a bad one or
starve.

> I went to a low cost state school and only took
> courses as I could afford to do so. Rather than live in a college
> dorm, I lived in my own house that was bought with my own money. We
> have choices.

Some people have choices, some don't. You apparently got a pretty
good job early on. How many jobs that good are open to people today
who have only high-school educations?

> If you are still paying credit card debt after 10 years you should
> be
> looking into better ways of managing debt. At least you have the
> backbone to pay your debts rather that join the bankruptcy craze to
> bail out of obligations.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> If someone decides to spend a lot of money for
>>> education to become a social activist in a low paying job, that is
>>> there choice also.
>>
>> You really think that someone goes to law school intending to
>> become
>> a public defender (to take one example)? You take the best offer
>> you
>> get, if you don't get a good offer then you either take a bad one
>> or
>> starve.
>
> There are people with lots of education that choose to go into a
> career that does not pay well, but can be rewarding in other ways.
> I
> mentioned social activist as there are people th at are trying to
> help others for the satisfaction, not hte money. Musicians and
> artists come to mind. If they make it big, good for them, but most
> don't. They could have been lawyers if theyw anted to be so when
> they can't make a living I don't feel sorry for them.

While there are such people, they are in the minority and many of them
come from money so they don't really need the job.

>> Some people have choices, some don't. You apparently got a pretty
>> good job early on. How many jobs that good are open to people
>> today
>> who have only high-school educations?
>
> My first job out of school was minimum wage. I worked all the OT I
> could get. A few years later I was a supervisor in a department of
> 45 people. The company moved south and I was out of work. My
> experience allowed me to find other decent paying jobs.

Now, if you were the supervisor, there were 44 other people in the
department who weren't the supervisor. Was that because they were all
subnormal or because you were in some way exceptional? And how did
your minimum wage compare to the cost of living?

> Manufacturing related jobs are tough to find. There are, hoerver,
> good opportunities to people willing to get at least some post high
> school education. Anything in the medical field has pretty good
> pay.

But if you can't get a job to begin with and don't have family with
money then how do you get that post-high-school education?

> It is difficult for those born with learning problems and the lack
> of
> capacity for technical skills. What gets me are the ones that have
> the ability, yet lack the amition or drive to complete school. I
> won't hire anyone that has dropped out of high school in recent
> years
> unless they have a work record. I've tried them and they don't work
> out due to poor attendence, poor attitude, lack of ambition. They
> don't want to follow simple rules.

How do the ones who graduated do?

> I can tell you stories. One guy, 40 years old, had no driver's
> license and he needed $2000 to pay off his fines to get it back. He
> complained about the lack of opportunity in his now short commutning
> distance, etc. I sat him down and shoed how fast he could earn that
> money by coming in early and working 2 hours of overtime a day.
> Open
> a special saving account, put hte extra money into it and gain
> independence. Nope, he thought it would be too much time at work.
> Should we feel worry for him?

Sounds like he's got a screw loose for accumulating 2000 bucks in
fines to begin with.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)