OT: Electrical - Removing a circuit

Doug Miller wrote:
> Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:36:20 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> No good reason - except that it's easier and faster and cheaper to
>>> just disconnect the black wire and nut it,
>>
>> 'Cept for the illegal part, that'd work. Verily, the codemongers
>> would smite thee for that because the Lord, our NEC, sez: Thou shalt
>> have no wires but real ones in the breaker box.
>>
> Got a Code cite for that? I'm not sure that's correct...

Ya beat me to it...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:92da409b-969e-45ab-9c0a-
> [email protected]:
>
>> I imagine he wants to remove the outlets physically from the wall,
>> and repair the wall. I know that here in NY you're not allowed to
>> bury an electrical box such that it can't be found, but I don't know
>> how that applies to disconnected ones.
>>
> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's easy
> enough to just stop using them...
>

The outlets will be partially covered by the benchwork, and removal of
the covers and outlets will be impossible without removing the
permanently installed benchwork. It would be similar to a countertop
partially covering a wall outlet.

If removing the wire from the breaker (and nutting it) is all that has to
be done, great. I'm not looking to remove the outlets from the wall if I
can avoid it.

I know why that breaker is turned off... Nobody else does and I'd rather
not have someone try to be "helpful" and reset it.

Puckdropper

--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On 03/25/2012 05:05 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:46:52 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's easy enough to just stop using
>> them...
>
> What's the point?? The point is that he's being responsible to a
> future renovator. By removing the outlets now (or at least
> disconnecting them), he's eliminating possible complications that some
> future renovator might encounter.

Yabut, a future renovator most likely would remove the train tables and
would not want to reinstall outlets. It would be much simpler to remove
tape from a turned off breaker and turn it on. If I were that future
renovator, turning on a breaker would be much less complicated that
pulling wire and doing renovator boxes and all to reinstall a missing
circuit.


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 03/25/2012 05:05 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:46:52 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>>> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's easy
>>> enough to just stop using them...
>>
>> What's the point?? The point is that he's being responsible to a
>> future renovator. By removing the outlets now (or at least
>> disconnecting them), he's eliminating possible complications that
>> some future renovator might encounter.
>
> Yabut, a future renovator most likely would remove the train tables
> and would not want to reinstall outlets. It would be much simpler to
> remove tape from a turned off breaker and turn it on. If I were that
> future renovator, turning on a breaker would be much less complicated
> that pulling wire and doing renovator boxes and all to reinstall a
> missing circuit.
>
>

I'm likely to be that future renovator... I'd like to leave the outlets
dead, installed in the wall (covered with tape or something paintable)
and just disconnect the circuit. I don't see any reason to disconnect
the neutral and ground, but was wondering if I had to pull everything and
cover the box (I sure hope not.)

I know you're not supposed to permanently close up live junction boxes,
but dead ones are another matter.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:46:52 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's easy enough to just stop using
>them...

What's the point?? The point is that he's being responsible to a
future renovator. By removing the outlets now (or at least
disconnecting them), he's eliminating possible complications that some
future renovator might encounter.

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:36:20 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> On 03/25/2012 05:05 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:46:52 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>>>>> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's
>>>>> easy enough to just stop using them...
>>>>
>>>> What's the point?? The point is that he's being responsible to a
>>>> future renovator. By removing the outlets now (or at least
>>>> disconnecting them), he's eliminating possible complications that
>>>> some future renovator might encounter.
>>>
>>> Yabut, a future renovator most likely would remove the train tables
>>> and would not want to reinstall outlets. It would be much simpler
>>> to remove tape from a turned off breaker and turn it on. If I were
>>> that future renovator, turning on a breaker would be much less
>>> complicated that pulling wire and doing renovator boxes and all to
>>> reinstall a missing circuit.
>>
>> If he's not going to be removing the outlets, why not just put a
>> lockout on the breaker?
>
>No good reason - except that it's easier and faster and cheaper to just
>disconnect the black wire and nut it,

'Cept for the illegal part, that'd work. Verily, the codemongers
would smite thee for that because the Lord, our NEC, sez: Thou shalt
have no wires but real ones in the breaker box.

--
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

Greg Guarino wrote:

> I imagine he wants to remove the outlets physically from the wall, and
> repair the wall. I know that here in NY you're not allowed to bury an
> electrical box such that it can't be found, but I don't know how that
> applies to disconnected ones.

That has nothing to do with NY - that is NEC, but it is totally irrelevant
to the discussion at hand. There has been no discussion of "burying" an
outlet, a junction box, or anything else.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Doug Miller wrote:
> Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:36:20 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> No good reason - except that it's easier and faster and cheaper to
>>> just disconnect the black wire and nut it,
>>
>> 'Cept for the illegal part, that'd work. Verily, the codemongers
>> would smite thee for that because the Lord, our NEC, sez: Thou shalt
>> have no wires but real ones in the breaker box.
>>
> Got a Code cite for that? I'm not sure that's correct...

Stuart Wheaton wrote:

>
> Pull the hot wire off the breaker, cap it and label it. Don't label
> it train room, label it SW bedroom... assume the person following
> you has nothing else to go by. Put a card under the outlets, or hang
> a tag from them that says, "disconnected from Breaker to allow train
> set, fully operational if re-connected" That way somebody does not
> assume there is a problem with the circuit.
>
> Cover the outlets with tape and have fun.

That's a lot of un-needed effort. Your idea of simply capping and tagging
the wire in the panel is sufficient.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mar 25, 9:49=A0am, Doug Miller <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in news:4f6eded9$0$57813=
$c3e8da3
> [email protected]:
>
> > I've got a series of outlets that are the same height as my railroad's
> > benchwork. =A0I've actually got enough outlets in that area, so disconn=
ecting
> > the circuit would be the easiest way to go.
>
> > Can I just remove the wire from the circuit breaker and label it as
> > disconnected, or do I need to do more to properly disconnect the circui=
t?
>
> If you disconnect it, you should wire-nut the loose end -- but why? Unles=
s you need that
> breaker for something else, there are two even simpler ways of abandoning=
the circuit: turn the
> breaker off, or just don't use it. Why bother doing anything?

I imagine he wants to remove the outlets physically from the wall, and
repair the wall. I know that here in NY you're not allowed to bury an
electrical box such that it can't be found, but I don't know how that
applies to disconnected ones.

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:01:13 +0000, Puckdropper wrote:

> I've got a series of outlets that are the same height as my railroad's
> benchwork. I've actually got enough outlets in that area, so
> disconnecting the circuit would be the easiest way to go.
>
> Can I just remove the wire from the circuit breaker and label it as
> disconnected, or do I need to do more to properly disconnect the
> circuit?
>
> Puckdropper

Remove the wire from the circuit breaker and either tape or place a wire
nut on the wire. Attach a tag that states what the wire goes to. The tag
is useful if in the future you have forgot where it goes or someone else
needs to know. Bend the wire out of way in the back of the box.

Paul T.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On 03/25/2012 05:05 PM, Dave wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:46:52 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
> >> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's easy enough to just stop using
> >> them...
> >
> > What's the point?? The point is that he's being responsible to a
> > future renovator. By removing the outlets now (or at least
> > disconnecting them), he's eliminating possible complications that some
> > future renovator might encounter.
>
> Yabut, a future renovator most likely would remove the train tables and
> would not want to reinstall outlets. It would be much simpler to remove
> tape from a turned off breaker and turn it on. If I were that future
> renovator, turning on a breaker would be much less complicated that
> pulling wire and doing renovator boxes and all to reinstall a missing
> circuit.

If he's not going to be removing the outlets, why not just put a lockout
on the breaker?

Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in news:4f6eded9$0$57813$c3e8da3
[email protected]:

> I've got a series of outlets that are the same height as my railroad's
> benchwork. I've actually got enough outlets in that area, so disconnecting
> the circuit would be the easiest way to go.
>
> Can I just remove the wire from the circuit breaker and label it as
> disconnected, or do I need to do more to properly disconnect the circuit?

If you disconnect it, you should wire-nut the loose end -- but why? Unless you need that
breaker for something else, there are two even simpler ways of abandoning the circuit: turn the
breaker off, or just don't use it. Why bother doing anything?

Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in news:92da409b-969e-45ab-9c0a-
[email protected]:

> On Mar 25, 9:49 am, Doug Miller <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in news:4f6eded9$0$57813
> $c3e8da3
>> [email protected]:
>>
>> > I've got a series of outlets that are the same height as my railroad's
>> > benchwork.  I've actually got enough outlets in that area, so disconn
> ecting
>> > the circuit would be the easiest way to go.
>>
>> > Can I just remove the wire from the circuit breaker and label it as
>> > disconnected, or do I need to do more to properly disconnect the circui
> t?
>>
>> If you disconnect it, you should wire-nut the loose end -- but why? Unles
> s you need that
>> breaker for something else, there are two even simpler ways of abandoning
> the circuit: turn the
>> breaker off, or just don't use it. Why bother doing anything?
>
> I imagine he wants to remove the outlets physically from the wall, and
> repair the wall. I know that here in NY you're not allowed to bury an
> electrical box such that it can't be found, but I don't know how that
> applies to disconnected ones.
>
Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's easy enough to just stop using
them...

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in news:a2e20$4f6fd668
[email protected]:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> If he's not going to be removing the outlets, why not just put a
>> lockout on the breaker?
>
> No good reason - except that it's easier and faster and cheaper to just
> disconnect the black wire and nut it,

Cheaper, yes, by a few pennies. Easier and faster, no. Disconnecting and nutting the black
wire requires removing and reinstalling the panel cover. A lockout can be installed without
removing the cover.

Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:36:20 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>No good reason - except that it's easier and faster and cheaper to just
>>disconnect the black wire and nut it,
>
> 'Cept for the illegal part, that'd work. Verily, the codemongers
> would smite thee for that because the Lord, our NEC, sez: Thou shalt
> have no wires but real ones in the breaker box.
>
Got a Code cite for that? I'm not sure that's correct...

J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> On 03/25/2012 05:05 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:46:52 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>>>> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's
>>>> easy enough to just stop using them...
>>>
>>> What's the point?? The point is that he's being responsible to a
>>> future renovator. By removing the outlets now (or at least
>>> disconnecting them), he's eliminating possible complications that
>>> some future renovator might encounter.
>>
>> Yabut, a future renovator most likely would remove the train tables
>> and would not want to reinstall outlets. It would be much simpler
>> to remove tape from a turned off breaker and turn it on. If I were
>> that future renovator, turning on a breaker would be much less
>> complicated that pulling wire and doing renovator boxes and all to
>> reinstall a missing circuit.
>
> If he's not going to be removing the outlets, why not just put a
> lockout on the breaker?

No good reason - except that it's easier and faster and cheaper to just
disconnect the black wire and nut it,

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:

>
> Not at all. Think about it - they are counter top outlets. The
> simplest solution has already been offered - install a GFI breaker.

Oops - ignore this comment. I got two thread mixed up. My bad...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mar 25, 3:46=A0pm, Doug Miller <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in news:92da409b-969e-45ab-9c0a-
> [email protected]:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 25, 9:49=A0am, Doug Miller <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in news:4f6eded9$0$57=
813
> > $c3e8da3
> >> [email protected]:
>
> >> > I've got a series of outlets that are the same height as my railroad=
's
> >> > benchwork. =A0I've actually got enough outlets in that area, so disc=
onn
> > ecting
> >> > the circuit would be the easiest way to go.
>
> >> > Can I just remove the wire from the circuit breaker and label it as
> >> > disconnected, or do I need to do more to properly disconnect the cir=
cui
> > t?
>
> >> If you disconnect it, you should wire-nut the loose end -- but why? Un=
les
> > s you need that
> >> breaker for something else, there are two even simpler ways of abandon=
ing
> > =A0the circuit: turn the
> >> breaker off, or just don't use it. Why bother doing anything?
>
> > I imagine he wants to remove the outlets physically from the wall, and
> > repair the wall. I know that here in NY you're not allowed to bury an
> > electrical box such that it can't be found, but I don't know how that
> > applies to disconnected ones.
>
> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's easy enou=
gh to just stop using
> them...

His original post made it seem like the outlets were in the way of his
"railroad benchwork", not that I'm clear on what that is. In a similar
situation, I had a kitchen outlet which was about to be half-covered
by a backsplash. I removed it.

Doug Miller wrote:
> Greg Guarino <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:92da409b-969e-45ab-9c0a-
> [email protected]:
>
>> On Mar 25, 9:49 am, Doug Miller <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
>>> news:4f6eded9$0$57813
>> $c3e8da3
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> I've got a series of outlets that are the same height as my
>>>> railroad's benchwork. I've actually got enough outlets in that
>>>> area, so disconn
>> ecting
>>>> the circuit would be the easiest way to go.
>>>
>>>> Can I just remove the wire from the circuit breaker and label it as
>>>> disconnected, or do I need to do more to properly disconnect the
>>>> circui
>> t?
>>>
>>> If you disconnect it, you should wire-nut the loose end -- but why?
>>> Unles
>> s you need that
>>> breaker for something else, there are two even simpler ways of
>>> abandoning
>> the circuit: turn the
>>> breaker off, or just don't use it. Why bother doing anything?
>>
>> I imagine he wants to remove the outlets physically from the wall,
>> and repair the wall. I know that here in NY you're not allowed to
>> bury an electrical box such that it can't be found, but I don't know
>> how that applies to disconnected ones.
>>
> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's easy
> enough to just stop using them...

Not at all. Think about it - they are counter top outlets. The simplest
solution has already been offered - install a GFI breaker.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Label...label...label.... disconnect and label the circuit wires.
Possibly use half blankoff plates for future circuit usage.


---------------
"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

Because you unnecessaily increase the chances of having an accident, by
someone (merely) inadvertantly resetting the C-B'er!

Bill wrote:
> Doug Miller wrote:
>> Puckdropper<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
>> news:4f6eded9$0$57813$c3e8da3 [email protected]:
>>
>>> I've got a series of outlets that are the same height as my
>>> railroad's benchwork. I've actually got enough outlets in that
>>> area, so disconnecting the circuit would be the easiest way to go.
>>>
>>> Can I just remove the wire from the circuit breaker and label it as
>>> disconnected, or do I need to do more to properly disconnect the
>>> circuit?
>>
>> If you disconnect it, you should wire-nut the loose end -- but why?
>> Unless you need that breaker for something else, there are two even
>> simpler ways of abandoning the circuit: turn the breaker off, or
>> just don't use it. Why bother doing anything?
>
> Because you unnecessaily increase the chances of having an accident,
> by someone (merely) inadvertantly resetting the C-B'er!

What accident?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 26 Mar 2012 02:09:04 GMT, Puckdropper
>I'm likely to be that future renovator... I'd like to leave the outlets
>dead, installed in the wall (covered with tape or something paintable)
>and just disconnect the circuit. I don't see any reason to disconnect
>the neutral and ground, but was wondering if I had to pull everything and
>cover the box (I sure hope not.)

What you choose to do is entirely your choice. However, you did ask
the question and the answer I gave is what I would do in your place.
Now, quite possibly, that's just me being anal. But, what if you move?
Would you rectify the outlets before you move? What happens after you
pass on and a relative gets the house?

Again, what I suggested is if I was in your position. You have to
decide what's right for you.

Doug Miller wrote:
> Puckdropper<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in news:4f6eded9$0$57813$c3e8da3
> [email protected]:
>
>> I've got a series of outlets that are the same height as my railroad's
>> benchwork. I've actually got enough outlets in that area, so disconnecting
>> the circuit would be the easiest way to go.
>>
>> Can I just remove the wire from the circuit breaker and label it as
>> disconnected, or do I need to do more to properly disconnect the circuit?
>
> If you disconnect it, you should wire-nut the loose end -- but why? Unless you need that
> breaker for something else, there are two even simpler ways of abandoning the circuit: turn the
> breaker off, or just don't use it. Why bother doing anything?

Because you unnecessaily increase the chances of having an accident, by
someone (merely) inadvertantly resetting the C-B'er!

On 3/25/12 10:35 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:36:20 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>> On 03/25/2012 05:05 PM, Dave wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:46:52 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>>>>>> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's
>>>>>> easy enough to just stop using them...
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the point?? The point is that he's being responsible to a
>>>>> future renovator. By removing the outlets now (or at least
>>>>> disconnecting them), he's eliminating possible complications that
>>>>> some future renovator might encounter.
>>>>
>>>> Yabut, a future renovator most likely would remove the train tables
>>>> and would not want to reinstall outlets. It would be much simpler
>>>> to remove tape from a turned off breaker and turn it on. If I were
>>>> that future renovator, turning on a breaker would be much less
>>>> complicated that pulling wire and doing renovator boxes and all to
>>>> reinstall a missing circuit.
>>>
>>> If he's not going to be removing the outlets, why not just put a
>>> lockout on the breaker?
>>
>> No good reason - except that it's easier and faster and cheaper to just
>> disconnect the black wire and nut it,
>
> 'Cept for the illegal part, that'd work. Verily, the codemongers
> would smite thee for that because the Lord, our NEC, sez: Thou shalt
> have no wires but real ones in the breaker box.
>

Yep, for sure. I mean, a day doesn't go by around here that the code
police don't storm the place looking for loose wires in the breaker box.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/25/2012 10:09 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Doug Winterburn<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 03/25/2012 05:05 PM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:46:52 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>>>> Well, maybe so, but I still have to ask, what's the point? It's easy
>>>> enough to just stop using them...
>>>
>>> What's the point?? The point is that he's being responsible to a
>>> future renovator. By removing the outlets now (or at least
>>> disconnecting them), he's eliminating possible complications that
>>> some future renovator might encounter.
>>
>> Yabut, a future renovator most likely would remove the train tables
>> and would not want to reinstall outlets. It would be much simpler to
>> remove tape from a turned off breaker and turn it on. If I were that
>> future renovator, turning on a breaker would be much less complicated
>> that pulling wire and doing renovator boxes and all to reinstall a
>> missing circuit.
>>
>>
>
> I'm likely to be that future renovator... I'd like to leave the outlets
> dead, installed in the wall (covered with tape or something paintable)
> and just disconnect the circuit. I don't see any reason to disconnect
> the neutral and ground, but was wondering if I had to pull everything and
> cover the box (I sure hope not.)
>
> I know you're not supposed to permanently close up live junction boxes,
> but dead ones are another matter.
>
> Puckdropper

Pull the hot wire off the breaker, cap it and label it. Don't label it
train room, label it SW bedroom... assume the person following you has
nothing else to go by. Put a card under the outlets, or hang a tag from
them that says, "disconnected from Breaker to allow train set, fully
operational if re-connected" That way somebody does not assume there is
a problem with the circuit.

Cover the outlets with tape and have fun.

Puckdropper wrote:
> I've got a series of outlets that are the same height as my railroad's
> benchwork. I've actually got enough outlets in that area, so disconnecting
> the circuit would be the easiest way to go.
>
> Can I just remove the wire from the circuit breaker and label it as
> disconnected, or do I need to do more to properly disconnect the circuit?
>
> Puckdropper

I've done that, then screw a wire nut onto the end of the wire to make
sure it doesn't contact anything else. This may not be the official
way to do things, though.

--
Gerald Ross

Prune: A plum that has seen better days.