specifically how to make the panels themselves.
I'm a student at a community taking a once a week evening cabinet making
course. It's for fun only, not for career.
I've decided to make my own raised panel doors out of poplar but I have
a question on shaping the panels themselves.
The school teaches the method of using a specific router bit but the
bits they have are really abused and other students told me the bit cuts
each profile on the panel different and deeper.
I'm reluctant to buy and provide my own bit for cost reasons, so what if
I take the panel to a table saw, take the majority of the depth off I
want on all four side, then make a single pass on the router bit to get
the shape.
I want to make 16 doors in total with many panels being about 16 to 20
inches in length. All poplar.
Anyone ever try this method before and what sort of results did you get.
Also what sort of safety info can you provide with table saw. It's
one woodworking tool that un-nerves me to some degree. Fence, mitre
gauge, etc.
Thanks for the advice.
Duesenberg wrote:
>> The school teaches the method of using a specific router bit but the
>> bits they have are really abused and other students told me the bit
>> cuts each profile on the panel different and deeper.
>
> When i say this I mean that the bit has to be inspected after every
> pass to see that it's position has not changed because students were
> finding that each panel had four different depth shapes on a single
> panel.
Cheap router. Get a good router. No simple soultions to this problem. Buy
junk - get junk.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Duesenberg" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> The school teaches the method of using a specific router bit but the
> bits they have are really abused and other students told me the bit cuts
> each profile on the panel different and deeper.
>When i say this I mean that the bit has to be inspected after every pass to
>see that it's position has not changed because students were finding that
>each panel had four different depth shapes on a single panel.
Sounds like the router bit is "riding up" in the collet. That could be a
dangerous situation if the bit were to come out.
The collet needs to be checked and the shank on the bit as well. If both
are determined to be OK, then proper tightening of the collet might be the
problem.
But if either shows damage it needs to be replaced.
Max
"Duesenberg" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
On 3/31/2012 10:52 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 20:45:08 -0600, "Max"<[email protected]>
>> Sounds like the router bit is "riding up" in the collet. That could be a
>> dangerous situation if the bit were to come out.
>> The collet needs to be checked and the shank on the bit as well. If both
>> are determined to be OK, then proper tightening of the collet might be
>> the
>> problem.
>
> If the router bit has a bearing, that could be wearing out too. Or
> else, it needs to be tightened in place.
>I am talking about the bit that profiles the panel itself, not the bits
>that cut the rails and stiles. The rails and stiles bits are fine as I did
>some testing last week on them.
>This is the type of bit I was told is difficult to use in comparision to
>the table saw... They are called vertical bits.
>http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=19222&site=ROCKLER
The advice still applies. If the bit isn't firm in the collet you'll get
different (deeper) profiles on the panel. And since it's a "vertical" bit
it could be that users are not controlling the panel properly.
I'm guessing that the router is in a table. If it isn't then you have more
problems than I would care to deal with. LOL
Max
"Duesenberg" wrote:
> I am talking about the bit that profiles the panel itself, not the
> bits that cut the rails and stiles. The rails and stiles bits are
> fine as I did some testing last week on them.
>
> This is the type of bit I was told is difficult to use in
> comparision to the table saw... They are called vertical bits.
>
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=19222&site=ROCKLER
----------------------------------
Make multiple cuts.
Slow router down to around 12,000 RPM.
Make sure you use a tenoning jig.
Lew
In article <[email protected]>,
Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> If the students are getting slightly different profiles when using the
> same bit then the course teacher should be informed of that fact and
> have him determine the problem.
That is indeed the correct answer to the problem.
--
Stuart Winsor
Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org
In article <[email protected]>,
Duesenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
> The standard raised panel bit is somewhat damaged at the shank. The
> instructor showed me.
Aha!
In that case they really ought to replace it.
> There are two sets of students. Evening students like myself and
> daytime students.
> Evening students take the course for fun and usually after a year begin
> building their own projects and purchasing their own wood. We don't
> care about a certificate or piece of paper, most are building projects
> for family, or gifts or personal reasons.
> Day students are there to get a diploma and get a job (hopefully). They
> are not allowed to do their own projects unless they are asked to, and
> under strict grading at that. They are NOT allowed to bring in their
> own tools or wood. They must complete the college's projects with
> college provided supplies only.
Sounds like when I did woodwork at school, though in the last year you did
design and make something to your own ideas. The design aspect was part of
the course.
As I mentioned elsewhere though, there were no power tools (1958-63) it
was all done using hand tools.
> As an evening student I would be allowed to purchase a router bit and
> use it at the college, however the cost of the bit is not something I
> like
Tell me about it. I bought one last year and it gets treated very
respectfully. Carefully cleaned and put back into the manufacturer
supplied storage case after every use.
> and if I provide my own wood, lets say walnut it could get costly.
Ooooo yes.
--
Stuart Winsor
Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org
Duesenberg wrote:
> specifically how to make the panels themselves.
>
> I'm a student at a community taking a once a week evening cabinet
> making course. It's for fun only, not for career.
>
> I've decided to make my own raised panel doors out of poplar but I
> have a question on shaping the panels themselves.
>
> The school teaches the method of using a specific router bit but the
> bits they have are really abused and other students told me the bit
> cuts each profile on the panel different and deeper.
What do you mean by "abused"? If the router is properly set up, the cut
should be the same for each panel. I'd bet the "students" are making
excuses for their own mistakes by blaming the equipment. Even dull
equipment will make repeatitive cuts - even if they are not so perfect.
>
> I'm reluctant to buy and provide my own bit for cost reasons, so what
> if I take the panel to a table saw, take the majority of the depth
> off I want on all four side, then make a single pass on the router
> bit to get the shape.
That could work but you would have to make sure you do not undercut the
profile of the router bit. More likely, those crummy router bits are going
to make unpredictable cuts - right?
>
> I want to make 16 doors in total with many panels being about 16 to 20
> inches in length. All poplar.
>
Size and quantity are irrelevant.
> Anyone ever try this method before and what sort of results did you
> get. Also what sort of safety info can you provide with table saw.
Oye. Two different questions. Yes - you can bulk off some of the wood with
the saw but as I said - be careful. I would not waste the time doing it.
No benefit at all. As for safety... Come on - you're taking a course
right? Have you not been taught that basic thing? Table saw safety is not
a simple one sentence answer. So many things to be aware of. You should
not expect that kind of answer in a question like you pose.
> It's one woodworking tool that un-nerves me to some degree. Fence, mitre
> gauge, etc.
Really? And just why would that be?
>
> Thanks for the advice.
Advice? Hell - we haven't even gotten into advice yet. Just wait until the
fun starts.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 20:45:08 -0600, "Max" <[email protected]>
>Sounds like the router bit is "riding up" in the collet. That could be a
>dangerous situation if the bit were to come out.
>The collet needs to be checked and the shank on the bit as well. If both
>are determined to be OK, then proper tightening of the collet might be the
>problem.
If the router bit has a bearing, that could be wearing out too. Or
else, it needs to be tightened in place.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> specifically how to make the panels themselves.
>
> I'm a student at a community taking a once a week evening cabinet making
> course. It's for fun only, not for career.
>
> I've decided to make my own raised panel doors out of poplar but I have
> a question on shaping the panels themselves.
>
> The school teaches the method of using a specific router bit but the
> bits they have are really abused and other students told me the bit cuts
> each profile on the panel different and deeper.
>
> I'm reluctant to buy and provide my own bit for cost reasons, so what if
> I take the panel to a table saw, take the majority of the depth off I
> want on all four side, then make a single pass on the router bit to get
> the shape.
>
> I want to make 16 doors in total with many panels being about 16 to 20
> inches in length. All poplar.
>
> Anyone ever try this method before and what sort of results did you get.
> Also what sort of safety info can you provide with table saw. It's
> one woodworking tool that un-nerves me to some degree. Fence, mitre
> gauge, etc.
>
> Thanks for the advice.
If the cutting height is varying, that's not wear in the bit unless the
shaft is buggered up enough that the bit is moving in the collet.
Either the bit is moving in the collet, the fence is moving on the
table, or the work is being tipped into the bit.
Some things to look at:
First, make sure that the shaft is smooth with no burrs (don't be afraid
to file or sand or grind out a burr if you find one). Also make sure
that both the shaft and the collet are _clean_. It's amazing how much
crud can build up in a router collet and if it's got any at all the
bit's going to move. I clean mine with a bronze .50 caliber rifle brush
and lacquer thinner then use paper towels with more lacquer thinner
until there's no trace of crud either visible in the collet or coming
off on the towel. Do the same for the shaft of the bit.
That's got the bit under control. Now you need to work on the fence.
Don't just use the fence that comes on the router table unless somebody
has made one up special for this operation and it's known to work--from
what you're describing that's not the case here. You need to make one
up.
You want your fence to be tall enough that you have more of the work
piece bearing on the fence than on the bit, so that holding it against
the fence keeps it properly positioned. You want to be sure that the
fence is absolutely square as well. I'd make it up out of some 3/4 MDF
or plywood, with a couple of braces in the back and enough of a foot to
allow it to be solidly clamped to the table, and maybe use some
Confirmat screws in the braces and the foot in addition to glue.
You want the fence stiff and strong and firmly attached--if it comes
apart on you that big bit can throw it all over the place. If it's got
any perceptible give to it at all reinforce it some more. Use a couple
of big C-clamps to hold it to the table, or if there are any dog holes
or the like then through-bolt it. If there's a t-track use that as well
but don't trust it--add clamps.
Be sure to make a big enough clearance cutout in the base on your fence
to be out of the way of the bit. If you can do so safely, make the
cutout in the fence itself using the panel-raising bit so it's an exact
fit, otherwise saw it as close as you can manage. If there's dust
collection available you might want to put a box around the back of the
area where the bit goes through with a fitting for the dust hose on it.
Something that will help is putting a spacer on the outfeed side to keep
you from accidentally tipping the workpiece into the bit at the end of
the cut--saw a radius on the spacer so that it doesn't stop the cut when
the workpiece hits it.
Rig some featherboards--put one on the infeed side and one on the
outfeed, but not one over the bit--that way the cut is controlled
between the fence and the featherboard on the infeed and between your
spacer and the featherboard on the outfeed but the featherboard isn't
deflecting the work right where the bit is located. Use featheboards in
two layers, one at table level and the other above the bit (stack some
2x4s or whatever and clamp the featherboard on top of them) so that the
work is held against tipping. If you put that last one right above the
bit it will also serve as a guard to keep your hands out of the bit.
Now you're got the workpiece controlled against movement in any
direction that it's likely to try to move.
Keep pressure on the top of the workpiece and keep it tight against the
fence and as long as the fence doesn't move you should get consistent
cuts.
Do after every cut blow or vacuum off the table--a chip against the
fence can push the piece away from the fence which screws up your
accuracy. If you've got the dust port I described rigged then this
should be less of a problem but it can still happen.
The idea here is to let the jigs maintain control. Try to anticipate
how the piece can move and put something there to control it, but don't
make things so rigid that you can't feed the piece through the tool. If
you're going to be working with power tools, learning how to make jigs
that control the work is a big part of the job.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> On 4/1/2012 5:02 PM, Stuart wrote:
> > In article<[email protected]>,
> > Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
> >> If the students are getting slightly different profiles when using the
> >> same bit then the course teacher should be informed of that fact and
> >> have him determine the problem.
> >
> > That is indeed the correct answer to the problem.
> >
>
>
> This is a long response but it at least gives a complete background of
> the issue:
>
> The standard raised panel bit is somewhat damaged at the shank. The
> instructor showed me.
Doesn't matter, if it's moving in the collet it needs to be either fixed
or discarded. If that thing comes adrift and hits somebody the lawsuit
is going to be as ugly as the wound. If the shank is bent there's
probably no economical way to fix it. If it's burred the burr can be
stoned out.
> There are two sets of students. Evening students like myself and
> daytime students.
>
> Evening students take the course for fun and usually after a year begin
> building their own projects and purchasing their own wood. We don't
> care about a certificate or piece of paper, most are building projects
> for family, or gifts or personal reasons.
>
> Day students are there to get a diploma and get a job (hopefully). They
> are not allowed to do their own projects unless they are asked to, and
> under strict grading at that. They are NOT allowed to bring in their
> own tools or wood. They must complete the college's projects with
> college provided supplies only. As an evening student I would be
> allowed to purchase a router bit and use it at the college, however the
> cost of the bit is not something I like and if I provide my own wood,
> lets say walnut it could get costly.
>
> The day students make their doors out of popular and MDF for the early
> projects and Oak for the later more advanced projects and if they make a
> mistake they don't get anymore wood for their project.
>
> One other note. Evening students are under no time contraints whilst
> day students have to complete their project within a set amount of time,
> therefore the day students are much harder on equipment. So that Panel
> router bit cold be used 20 times a day during some weeks, and the
> courses are run 52 weeks a year so that bit is under intense abuse if
> you think about it.
You're not seeing the big picture here. If it's moving in the collet
that's bad news no matter how often it gets used. "Abuse" should result
in rough surfaces, not in the bit moving in the collet.
You don't have to use the router at all for raised panels.
You can cut the panels completely on the tablesaw, giving a raised panel.
First you set your fence so the size of your field. And score the panel
on four sides. Do that for all panels.
Then you set your panel on edge and set the blade to come out just short
of the reveal on the field you just cut. I have a high fence that I use
for this. It extends my fence in height to support the boards when
cutting like this. I also add a handscrew to the top of the panel so it
rides the top of the fence for extra support. You can also make a sled
to keep the panel tight to the fence. I don't need that. I use a feather
board down below to keep the board tight to the fence. Then I cut the
panel ... and you rotate and do the other side. Start each panel with
endgrain first. Then cut with the grain, the tearout will be cleaned up
by doing this .
Your method may or may not work depending on the style of bit. It could
be contemporary, or OGEE... Ogee would not work. Conemporary might work.
Google search and you tube search for cutting raised panels on the table
saw.
Good luck.
On 3/31/2012 9:26 PM, Duesenberg wrote:
> specifically how to make the panels themselves.
>
> I'm a student at a community taking a once a week evening cabinet making
> course. It's for fun only, not for career.
>
> I've decided to make my own raised panel doors out of poplar but I have
> a question on shaping the panels themselves.
>
> The school teaches the method of using a specific router bit but the
> bits they have are really abused and other students told me the bit cuts
> each profile on the panel different and deeper.
>
> I'm reluctant to buy and provide my own bit for cost reasons, so what if
> I take the panel to a table saw, take the majority of the depth off I
> want on all four side, then make a single pass on the router bit to get
> the shape.
>
> I want to make 16 doors in total with many panels being about 16 to 20
> inches in length. All poplar.
>
> Anyone ever try this method before and what sort of results did you get.
> Also what sort of safety info can you provide with table saw. It's one
> woodworking tool that un-nerves me to some degree. Fence, mitre gauge, etc.
>
> Thanks for the advice.
>
> The school teaches the method of using a specific router bit but the
> bits they have are really abused and other students told me the bit cuts
> each profile on the panel different and deeper.
When i say this I mean that the bit has to be inspected after every pass
to see that it's position has not changed because students were finding
that each panel had four different depth shapes on a single panel.
"Duesenberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> specifically how to make the panels themselves.
>
> I'm a student at a community taking a once a week evening cabinet making course.
> It's for fun only, not for career.
>
> I've decided to make my own raised panel doors out of poplar but I have a question
> on shaping the panels themselves.
>
> The school teaches the method of using a specific router bit but the bits they have
> are really abused and other students told me the bit cuts each profile on the panel
> different and deeper.
>
> I'm reluctant to buy and provide my own bit for cost reasons, so what if I take the
> panel to a table saw, take the majority of the depth off I want on all four side,
> then make a single pass on the router bit to get the shape.
>
> I want to make 16 doors in total with many panels being about 16 to 20 inches in
> length. All poplar.
>
> Anyone ever try this method before and what sort of results did you get. Also what
> sort of safety info can you provide with table saw. It's one woodworking tool that
> un-nerves me to some degree. Fence, mitre gauge, etc.
>
> Thanks for the advice.
>
You can do raised panels on a tablesaw.
Google "cutting raised panels on a table saw".
Art
On 3/31/2012 10:52 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 20:45:08 -0600, "Max"<[email protected]>
>> Sounds like the router bit is "riding up" in the collet. That could be a
>> dangerous situation if the bit were to come out.
>> The collet needs to be checked and the shank on the bit as well. If both
>> are determined to be OK, then proper tightening of the collet might be the
>> problem.
>
> If the router bit has a bearing, that could be wearing out too. Or
> else, it needs to be tightened in place.
I am talking about the bit that profiles the panel itself, not the bits
that cut the rails and stiles. The rails and stiles bits are fine as I
did some testing last week on them.
This is the type of bit I was told is difficult to use in comparision to
the table saw... They are called vertical bits.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=19222&site=ROCKLER
Duesenberg wrote:
>> The school teaches the method of using a specific router bit but the
>> bits they have are really abused and other students told me the bit
>> cuts each profile on the panel different and deeper.
>
> When i say this I mean that the bit has to be inspected after every
> pass to see that it's position has not changed because students were
> finding that each panel had four different depth shapes on a single
> panel.
As others have said, movement of the bit on the collet could cause it but I
doubt it. More likely that the wood being cut moved relative to the bit and
fence; i.e., whoever was shoving it along the fence wobbled it a bit. Easy
to do with a tall/wide panel and a relatively shorter fence.
If they had been using a normal bit - work flat on the table - a minor lack
of flatness of the wood would do it too (that holds true for vertical bits
as well). That's one disadvantage of a router table compared to a hand held
router...if the wood isn't totally flat, the depth of cut will vary.
You can raise simple panels on a saw but your plan of then making a light
pass with a router won't help in either of the two situations I mentioned.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On 4/1/2012 5:02 PM, Stuart wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>> If the students are getting slightly different profiles when using the
>> same bit then the course teacher should be informed of that fact and
>> have him determine the problem.
>
> That is indeed the correct answer to the problem.
>
This is a long response but it at least gives a complete background of
the issue:
The standard raised panel bit is somewhat damaged at the shank. The
instructor showed me.
There are two sets of students. Evening students like myself and
daytime students.
Evening students take the course for fun and usually after a year begin
building their own projects and purchasing their own wood. We don't
care about a certificate or piece of paper, most are building projects
for family, or gifts or personal reasons.
Day students are there to get a diploma and get a job (hopefully). They
are not allowed to do their own projects unless they are asked to, and
under strict grading at that. They are NOT allowed to bring in their
own tools or wood. They must complete the college's projects with
college provided supplies only. As an evening student I would be
allowed to purchase a router bit and use it at the college, however the
cost of the bit is not something I like and if I provide my own wood,
lets say walnut it could get costly.
The day students make their doors out of popular and MDF for the early
projects and Oak for the later more advanced projects and if they make a
mistake they don't get anymore wood for their project.
One other note. Evening students are under no time contraints whilst
day students have to complete their project within a set amount of time,
therefore the day students are much harder on equipment. So that Panel
router bit cold be used 20 times a day during some weeks, and the
courses are run 52 weeks a year so that bit is under intense abuse if
you think about it.
"Duesenberg" wrote
I've decided to make my own raised panel doors out of poplar but I have
a question on shaping the panels themselves.
Consider using a different wood. Using pooplar, in making 16 doors the odds
are that 2 or 3 will be so twisted that they will not close tightly all
around the door.
-- Jim in NC
Yep:
http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip011116ws.html
On 3/31/2012 6:26 PM, Duesenberg wrote:
> specifically how to make the panels themselves.
>
> I'm a student at a community taking a once a week evening cabinet making
> course. It's for fun only, not for career.
>
> I've decided to make my own raised panel doors out of poplar but I have
> a question on shaping the panels themselves.
>
> I want to make 16 doors in total with many panels being about 16 to 20
> inches in length. All poplar.
I neglected to mention the world's handy man
spot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63aBHazzpDw
This guy is doing it using a Makita job site saw
with decent success.
A search on making raised panels on a table saw
got a LOT of hits.
On 3/31/2012 6:26 PM, Duesenberg wrote:
> specifically how to make the panels themselves.
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:11:37 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>What do you mean by "abused"? If the router is properly set up, the cut
>should be the same for each panel. I'd bet the "students" are making
>excuses for their own mistakes by blaming the equipment. Even dull
>equipment will make repeatitive cuts - even if they are not so perfect.
Possibly, the bearing on the router is wearing out or needs to be
tightened.
If the students are getting slightly different profiles when using the
same bit then the course teacher should be informed of that fact and
have him determine the problem.
On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 23:00:53 -0400, Duesenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>I am talking about the bit that profiles the panel itself, not the bits
>that cut the rails and stiles. The rails and stiles bits are fine as I
>did some testing last week on them.
Then you should be able to cut the profile quite easily on a table
saw. Many cabinet makers cut their panels on a table saw.
As far as the profile bit for a router goes, if it's giving different
cuts, then as others have mentioned, there's probably some kind of
problem with the collet. Make sure there's no dust or dirt in it.
Don't bottom it out, make sure it's at least 1/16" above the bottom of
the collet. And yes, you can cut most of the profile off with the
table saw and then use the router bit to cut the profile. That also,
is a common method.