I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that they're
insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall. I'm going
to do this myself, probably with a helper who will probably know less about
hanging drywall than I do (which isn't much...the white side faces out,
right? ;-). Anyway, it appears that the recommended way to do this is to do
the ceiling first, then hang the walls with the drywall parallel to the
floor starting at the ceiling and working down. However, to get this thing
going, I'd rather do the walls first. Then I would run the electric surface
mounted on the drywall. At some later date, I would drywall the ceiling.
My main question is: how big of a deal is doing the ceiling after the walls?
Also, it would be way easier in my mind to hang the drywall vertically
(parallel to the studs) rather than horizontally. For this application,
would it be OK? I'm open to any other constructive comments regarding this
plan.
todd
"todd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that
they're
> insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall. I'm going
> to do this myself, probably with a helper who will probably know less
about
> hanging drywall than I do (which isn't much...the white side faces out,
> right? ;-). Anyway, it appears that the recommended way to do this is to
do
> the ceiling first, then hang the walls with the drywall parallel to the
> floor starting at the ceiling and working down. However, to get this
thing
> going, I'd rather do the walls first. Then I would run the electric
surface
> mounted on the drywall. At some later date, I would drywall the ceiling.
> My main question is: how big of a deal is doing the ceiling after the
walls?
I think it would be no problem. Just be sure to leave yourself a gap of the
right size.
> Also, it would be way easier in my mind to hang the drywall vertically
> (parallel to the studs) rather than horizontally. For this application,
> would it be OK? I'm open to any other constructive comments regarding
this
> plan.
How tall are you? If you hang horizontally, you have the big easy seam 4
feet off the ground and do not need to go up and down the ladder as much
when taping. You can also use 12 footers easier and potentially elimate
another seam or two.
On Jun 25, 1:38 am, "todd" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
"here in the Chicago area"
Are you doing a "commercial" shop? In most areas I am familiar
with, ROMEX is acceptable for "home" applications and conduit is
required for "commerical" applications. If you are building a "home"
shop and haven't asked Code Enforcement, it might be worth asking.
Having said that, it is certainly easier to la conduit outside of
finished walls than to run it through studs - although there is a more
flexible variety than the steel now a days - but CODE RULES if you are
to be INSPECTED. If at all possible, route your wiring behind the
walls. You may be able to pass inspection with that flexible spiral
bound cable which can be easily routed through stud walls.
I ran duplex outlets around the perimeter with a steady and a switched
circuit all around the shop. You can wire the tp two outlets switched
or just the top left (be consistent so you will remember which is
switched!) This allowed me to leave all those transformer things
plugged in 24/7 but able to switch them off when I left the shop.
Saves on electricity and fire hazards. I ran 12/4 (Red, White, Black
and Bare) but I didn't invite the inspector - hell, I told no one.
As to the wall surfaces, T-111 is a good idea but OSB works as well -
smoother surface - and is cheaper than drywall in our area. It can
take a screw - don't think it will hold one as well as solid wood but
no facts to back that up. And, as the fellow said about the T-111, it
will take more punishment than drywall. If your studs are 16" O.C. you
should be able to hang the boards vertically easier than horizontally
and use a two foot section along the bottom horizontally. I used joint
compoud on my OSB seams and texture on the walls and ceiling and it
worked out nicely.
Ceiling goes up FIRST **. And, don't discount its value up there.
Primed, then painted with a Bright White, it will provide double the
illumination (well, I just made that up- again, no facts or research,
just opinion) with any given wattage and LIGHT IS important in a
shop. Esp as you age in place. Ten foot ceiling height. I'm impressed.
As the intensity of the light diminishes inversley with the square of
the distance, I may have been experiencing a much greater illumination
boost from my bright white ceilings than you can achieve. But it will
make a difference
** At least that is the way all the pros I've watched do the job.
Partly because, I suspect it is easier to hide the inevitable gaps
that occur when positioning ten foot long, four foot wide sheets of
anything overhead in a structure "nominally square."
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > "todd" wrote:
>
> > > I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that
> > they're
> > > insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall.
> > I'm going
> > > to do this myself,.............
>
> > Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment.
>
> > Ever consider using T&G siding.
>
> > Relatively low cost, you won't punch holes thru it, and you can pretty
> > much hang anything you want, anywhere you want.
>
> > Be a good idea to rough in the electrical under the siding under the wall
> > covering, whatever you use.
>
> > BTW, not my idea, NYW had project building a workshop in a garage that
> > used it.
>
> > YMMV.
>
> > Lew
>
> I hadn't considered T&G siding. I had considered plywood, though. The
> siding would be a sight easier for me to deal with compared to the drywall.
> I imagine it's at least double the material cost of drywall, but if I factor
> in hiring out the drywall hanging like SWMBO wants to do, I might come out
> ahead.
>
> Although I didn't highlight it, I'm curious to get people's input on the
> electrical. One thing to keep in mind is that here in the Chicago area,
> I've got to run everything in metal conduit, so running wire inside the
> walls isn't quite as easy as drilling some holes and pulling romex through.
> I've read archive posts where people found it acceptable to surface mount in
> a shop situation.
>
> thanks for your input,
>
> todd
On Jun 25, 12:00 pm, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
> todd wrote:
>
> > Although I didn't highlight it, I'm curious to get people's input on
> > the electrical. One thing to keep in mind is that here in the Chicago
> > area, I've got to run everything in metal conduit, so running wire
> > inside the walls isn't quite as easy as drilling some holes and
> > pulling romex through.
>
> Ah yes, the infamous Chicago code.
>
> You can run BX in the walls. It is flexible, metal armored cable.
>
> Ability to run conduit not required.
>
> Yes it is more expensive than romex, but you are only talking about
> one room.
>
> Buy it by the full box, from an electrical supply house.
>
> Buying cut lengths of wire is a good way to go broke in a hurry.
>
> Try working up a total electrical package (BX cable, boxes, wiring
> devices, etc) and giving it to an electrical supply house.
>
> Might get a package price.
>
> Lew
>
> Lew
Per our local amendment: "All new interior electrical installations
shall be piped in rigid or EMT or (minimum) 1/2" Greenfield whips up
to 6'0" as needed. (BX armored cable is not permitted).".
So, no replacing the bulk of the conduit with Greenfield or any other
flexible conduit.
Todd,
I put up drywall, but that is your call. I suggest that for lighting,
be sure and consider track lights over where you think your tools will
be. If you add more power tools you can add to your tracks and put
light exactly where you want it. I used halogens over the work bench
and finally I could read my dimensions even in winter when it was dark
outside.
I also suggest you do the ceiling first. I like the idea of OSB. I
used drywall and used pegboard liberally. I hate having to look for a
tool and know I have it but can't find it.
Bill in New Mexico
On Jun 24, 9:05 pm, "todd" <[email protected]> wrote:
> ... I can't come up with a better idea than drywall. Then I would
> run the electric surface mounted on the drywall.
Gee, your code calls for EMT inside walls of a finished area?
Anywhere else, it's considered fire-safe to put sheetrock over
Romex.
Anyway, drywall is good except for load-bearing mounts, so consider
a couple of rails of wood or other trim horizontally at (for instance)
bench and eye height. You could use Unistrut/Superstrut channel
for this, too (and it'd be a handy way to clamp your surface
electrical boxes). When you want to mount a heavy item to
the wall (pegboard o'hammers!) just clamp into the
unistrut or screw into the (clearly visible) wood rail.
Also, since you have high ceilings, consider putting a couple of
sturdy boxes on the ceiling, with dangling sockets-on-a-cable.
When some new tool goes into the center of the shop, this lets
you plug it in without any tripwires on the shop floor. Twistlock
sockets are preferred. I've seen some areas with island
workstations connected this way, it's neat!
On Jun 25, 7:34 pm, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
> And if you think I believe that, we should get together and talk about
> some swampland over in Arizona.
Nah, what they try to sell you here in AZ is the opposite of a swamp -
a lot where there is no local water utility, you have to truck in your
water, no sewers, and the soil doesn't perc, so you have use an
"alternative septic" system. If you're lucky, you get electric and
phone to the lot line.
Don't laugh, developers in NW Arizona are filing plans for
developments close to where the new Hoover Dam bypass is going to be,
where the water supply will be "truck in your own". They expect to
sell a lot of less expensive houses to people who are tired of Las
Vegas real estate prices and don't mind trading the commute for a
cheaper house.
Jerry
I don't know what all the fuss about drywall is. Every shop I have had was
drywall and the next one will be too. No problems hanging anything on the
walls since the invention of the stud sensor. I have a couple friends that
put up wafer board. It took tons of primer to seal it, and the glues and
resin still sneak through in places. Plus drywall is a bit quieter than
wafer board. It seems to me their shops echo the noise off the walls more
than mine,
Greg
todd wrote:
> To be honest, I've never heard it referred to as "Hogan's code",
but from
> other discussions I've read here and elsewhere, the residential
electrical
> code around here has to be just about the most strict in the
country. I've
> always assumed the rules are in place to protect union
electricians. Every
> time I see a home improvement show where people are running Romex,
I think
> "yeah, that would be easier".
You may not have heard of Hogan. More than 30 years ago he was chief
electrical inspector for the City of Chicago.
Among other things, he would not permit molded case c'bkrs
(100A-1200A) to be used in panelboards, everything had to be switch
and fuse which meant 600A max.
Gives a whole new meaning to electrical distribution design.
I had customers who sold equipment with large electrical motor control
panels to Chicago area customers.
Most of those control panels would not meet Hogans without a complete
redesign which just wasn't work it.
The solution was "The Bull", AKA the UL bullseye.
Use all UL listed devices, then bring in an electrician from a UL
listed control panel builder, pay him $100 to connect one wire and
then attach the UL Bullseye.
All very legal and it solved a problem since Hogan accepted UL listed
equipment.
At the time the whole process seemed so "Chicago", pay the graft and
get the job done.
Lew
todd <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "todd" wrote:
> >
> > > I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that
> > they're
> > > insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall.
> > I'm going
> > > to do this myself,.............
> >
> > Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment.
> >
> > Ever consider using T&G siding.
> >
> > Relatively low cost, you won't punch holes thru it, and you can pretty
> > much hang anything you want, anywhere you want.
> >
> > Be a good idea to rough in the electrical under the siding under the wall
> > covering, whatever you use.
> >
> > BTW, not my idea, NYW had project building a workshop in a garage that
> > used it.
> >
> > YMMV.
> >
> > Lew
>
> I hadn't considered T&G siding. I had considered plywood, though. The
> siding would be a sight easier for me to deal with compared to the drywall.
> I imagine it's at least double the material cost of drywall, but if I factor
> in hiring out the drywall hanging like SWMBO wants to do, I might come out
> ahead.
Put up something you can screw into whatever you do. My shop is a
concrete sectional garage. This means concrete panels bolted together
make the walls. The centre of the panels are very thin, only the edges
have any thickness and the inside edge around the panels is bevelled. To
hang anything I had to rip strips of ply to the right angle (I don't
have a tablesaw), laminate them together, drill them for the bolts and
bolt them in place using longer bolts. Then I screwed 18mm ply onto
them. So far the wall above my bench and the end wall above the bench
are done. Means I have two wall cabinets on the end wall now and some
saws are hung up by shaped blocks through the hole in the handle.
Don't do drywall, think finding studs every time you want to hang
something.
Peter
--
Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
www.the-brights.net
In article <[email protected]>, todd
<[email protected]> wrote:
> I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that they're
> insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall.
I'm in the process of finishing up my new shop. At the suggestion of a
local contractor (cousin through marriage), I covered the interior
walls with OSB (oriented strand board) smooth side out.
The 7/16" OSB was about half the price of 1/2" drywall at the local
borg. With a little care, the seams tend to disappear after painting.
For the one or two seams that were a little stubborn, a some paintable
caulk before painting took care of them.
Well, that's what worked for me, anyway. The added benefit is that I
don't have to worry about poking boards through the drywall.
Joe
aka 10x
[email protected] wrote:
> Per our local amendment: "All new interior electrical installations
> shall be piped in rigid or EMT or (minimum) 1/2" Greenfield whips up
> to 6'0" as needed. (BX armored cable is not permitted).".
>
> So, no replacing the bulk of the conduit with Greenfield or any other
> flexible conduit.
>
The ghost of Hogan is still alive and well I see.
Got any buddies that are in the electrical business?
Lew
todd wrote:
> Although I didn't highlight it, I'm curious to get people's input on
> the electrical. One thing to keep in mind is that here in the Chicago
> area, I've got to run everything in metal conduit, so running wire
> inside the walls isn't quite as easy as drilling some holes and
> pulling romex through.
Ah yes, the infamous Chicago code.
You can run BX in the walls. It is flexible, metal armored cable.
Ability to run conduit not required.
Yes it is more expensive than romex, but you are only talking about
one room.
Buy it by the full box, from an electrical supply house.
Buying cut lengths of wire is a good way to go broke in a hurry.
Try working up a total electrical package (BX cable, boxes, wiring
devices, etc) and giving it to an electrical supply house.
Might get a package price.
Lew
Lew
Roy <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
*snip*
>
> Drywall was a mistake. I will have some sort of solid siding for the
> next (and last) shop. This will be the ultimate shop, as I intend to
> spend my retirement in it. The cost will be a bit more than with
> drywall, but since I expect to use it for another 20 years, it will be
> worth it. Nothing fancy, but someplace with all the wiring hidden,
> and white painted ply or T&G or wafer board so I can hang something
> where ever I darn well please. I do this with the current shop, but
> sometimes it entails head scratching and finding the darn stud sensor.
>
> Regards,
> Roy
If I was hanging things on a regular basis, I'd probably find a couple
studs and discretely mark their location on the wall. (Up near the
cieling or down near the floor. Just a 1/2" line on each side of the
stud gives you something to go off of, especially if you know your stud
spacing's consistent.)
Wonder if we could get an issue of some magazine like "Better Homes and
Gardens" to publish a room where blue chalk lines 16 inch on center are
part of the decor. :-)
Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
I'm with Greg.
I have drywall and I like having a "finished" space to work in. I *know*
that my studs as 16" O/C because I put them there. They are easy to find
because they are on one side or the other of every outlet... thre wraps of
the knuckles and I know exactly where a stud is.
-Steve
"Greg O" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I don't know what all the fuss about drywall is. Every shop I have had was
>drywall and the next one will be too. No problems hanging anything on the
>walls since the invention of the stud sensor. I have a couple friends that
>put up wafer board. It took tons of primer to seal it, and the glues and
>resin still sneak through in places. Plus drywall is a bit quieter than
>wafer board. It seems to me their shops echo the noise off the walls more
>than mine,
> Greg
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
My uncle taught me how to drywall and tape the joints over 40 years ago. He
always preferred to hang the sheets vertically with as many factory joints
as could be made, then tape and mud the joints with increasing width layers,
feathering the edges wider with each layer. The non-factory edges had to be
feathered wider during the taping process to make them look right, so he
tried to minimize the number of them because they took a bit longer to do.
After each layer of mud dried he would use a taping knife to scrape off any
high spots or bumps before applying another layer of mud. Two or sometimes
three layers was all that was usually necessary for good results. His final
"sanding" wasn't sanding at all. He never used sandpaper. He used a large
damp sponge to wipe off and smooth any remaining bumps and surface
imperfections. While doing this on the seams he also wiped across the whole
surface of the drywall and not just the joint areas. By doing this, the
whole wall surface became coated with a thin smooth layer of drywall mud,
which reduced the differences in texture between the paper sheetrock surface
and the seams, making them even less visible after the walls were painted.
He never used sandpaper, his finished walls always looked great, and he
never had any plaster dust to clean up.
Charley
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "The Davenport's" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> > true, it IS harder to get a smooth joint on a butt joint, however, this
is
> > offset with three things:
> >
> > 1) The long running joints are basically at waist height...easy to get
at
> > without stretching and stooping. Bad enough that you need to do that in
> > the corners, no sense doing it every 4' down the length of the wall,
too.
>
> Standard ceiling heights aren't such a bad reach for the average height
> person. It's less work as well, to reach and stoop to do factory joints
> than it is to do butt joints. In the end you'll be doing more stooping
and
> reaching with butt joints than with factory joints.
>
> >
> > 2) Along the same lines, the 4' vertical joints can be done by stooping
> > just once and getting on the drywallers bench just once. Most people
have
> > enough of a wingspan to handle reaching 4' without a lot of twisting.
> >
>
> You have to stoop for every joint - and you have to do all of the extra
work
> of feathering out every one of those butt joints. I've seen a lot of
> sheetrock hung horizontally, and most times the butt joints show. It's
not
> worth taking the extra time and effort required to work those butt joints
> when you can simply hang it vertically and deal with (almost) all factory
> joints.
>
> > 3) The vertical joints are not as noticeable, in general, as horizontal
> > joints, all other things being equal...that is that you make good
joints.
>
> Which would be an arugment in favor or hanging it vertically and having
all
> vertical joints without horizontal joints.
>
> >
> > Final tip for a mudded wall...use a skim coat after you think you're
> > done...just think the crap out of the mud...think thick paint...and slap
> > it on, followed by a WIDE trowel. When I've done this, don't try to work
> > ONto a wet skim coat. Start in a corner and work as far down the wall as
> > possible. Then go to the next corner and do the same thing, going the
same
> > direction...and so on around the room. Next day, go the other way
around.
> > Prime and paint.
> >
>
> I've never tried this and it sounds like more work than just applying a
good
> primer coat before painting, but I'll bet it does a nice job of creating a
> consistent finish on the rock so that paint does not telegraph where the
> spackle is.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
>
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> At the time the whole process seemed so "Chicago", pay the graft and get
> the job done.
>
>
> Lew
Don't worry, Lew. They've cleaned all of that up. No more shady stuff like
that in the city anymore. Riiiiight.
todd
My 2 cents.
I echo what Lew said. Plywood, T&G, even wafer board. We did our garage in drywall a few years
ago, stuck in a bunch of circuits in, etc, for all the power tools. We even air conditioned it, so
it is actually a shop, not a garage.Only vehicles ever in it were during the hurricane a couple of
years ago (stacking power tools to make enough room was NOT fun).
Drywall was a mistake. I will have some sort of solid siding for the next (and last) shop. This
will be the ultimate shop, as I intend to spend my retirement in it. The cost will be a bit more
than with drywall, but since I expect to use it for another 20 years, it will be worth it. Nothing
fancy, but someplace with all the wiring hidden, and white painted ply or T&G or wafer board so I
can hang something where ever I darn well please. I do this with the current shop, but sometimes it
entails head scratching and finding the darn stud sensor.
Regards,
Roy
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:05:08 -0500, "todd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that they're
>insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall. I'm going
>to do this myself, probably with a helper who will probably know less about
>hanging drywall than I do (which isn't much...the white side faces out,
>right? ;-). Anyway, it appears that the recommended way to do this is to do
>the ceiling first, then hang the walls with the drywall parallel to the
>floor starting at the ceiling and working down. However, to get this thing
>going, I'd rather do the walls first. Then I would run the electric surface
>mounted on the drywall. At some later date, I would drywall the ceiling.
>My main question is: how big of a deal is doing the ceiling after the walls?
>Also, it would be way easier in my mind to hang the drywall vertically
>(parallel to the studs) rather than horizontally. For this application,
>would it be OK? I'm open to any other constructive comments regarding this
>plan.
>
>todd
>
Last time I did the walls in my shop I used OSB. Fairly cheap but provided a
lot of wall space without having to look for studs when hanging things up.
run your wire on the outside in a conduit and it should be a snap.
Thom
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "todd" wrote:
>
> > I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that
> they're
> > insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall.
> I'm going
> > to do this myself,.............
>
> Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment.
>
> Ever consider using T&G siding.
>
> Relatively low cost, you won't punch holes thru it, and you can pretty
> much hang anything you want, anywhere you want.
>
> Be a good idea to rough in the electrical under the siding under the
> wall covering, whatever you use.
>
> BTW, not my idea, NYW had project building a workshop in a garage that
> used it.
>
> YMMV.
>
> Lew
"todd" wrote:
> I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that
they're
> insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall.
I'm going
> to do this myself,.............
Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment.
Ever consider using T&G siding.
Relatively low cost, you won't punch holes thru it, and you can pretty
much hang anything you want, anywhere you want.
Be a good idea to rough in the electrical under the siding under the
wall covering, whatever you use.
BTW, not my idea, NYW had project building a workshop in a garage that
used it.
YMMV.
Lew
whit3rd wrote:
> Gee, your code calls for EMT inside walls of a finished area?
> Anywhere else, it's considered fire-safe to put sheetrock over
> Romex.
The NEC applies everywhere except Chicago, where what is known as
"Hogan's code" is in effect.
If you supply equipment to Chicago, you factor "Hogan's code" into the
price.
At least that's what used to be the case.
Lew
I'd stick with drywall. If you do poke something through it, it is
easy to patch. Also provides more fire protection than OSB. Also less
flamable surface to catch on fire to begin with.
Take the time and do the electrical first. That way it won't be in
the way when you want to hang cabinets, etc.
Horizontal on the walls is better, IMHO.
Just to make things a little more complicated, some people use double
thick drywall. The outer sheet is glued to the inner sheet so there are
no fasteners.
I'd do the ceiling first. I get the feeling that you want to get
the walls done so you can move in sooner. That means you'd have to
move out to do the ceiling.
Pete Stanaitis
---------------------------
todd wrote:
> I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that they're
> insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall. I'm going
> to do this myself, probably with a helper who will probably know less about
> hanging drywall than I do (which isn't much...the white side faces out,
> right? ;-). Anyway, it appears that the recommended way to do this is to do
> the ceiling first, then hang the walls with the drywall parallel to the
> floor starting at the ceiling and working down. However, to get this thing
> going, I'd rather do the walls first. Then I would run the electric surface
> mounted on the drywall. At some later date, I would drywall the ceiling.
> My main question is: how big of a deal is doing the ceiling after the walls?
> Also, it would be way easier in my mind to hang the drywall vertically
> (parallel to the studs) rather than horizontally. For this application,
> would it be OK? I'm open to any other constructive comments regarding this
> plan.
>
> todd
>
>
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "todd" wrote:
>
> > I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that
> they're
> > insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall.
> I'm going
> > to do this myself,.............
>
> Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment.
>
> Ever consider using T&G siding.
>
> Relatively low cost, you won't punch holes thru it, and you can pretty
> much hang anything you want, anywhere you want.
>
> Be a good idea to rough in the electrical under the siding under the wall
> covering, whatever you use.
>
> BTW, not my idea, NYW had project building a workshop in a garage that
> used it.
>
> YMMV.
>
> Lew
I hadn't considered T&G siding. I had considered plywood, though. The
siding would be a sight easier for me to deal with compared to the drywall.
I imagine it's at least double the material cost of drywall, but if I factor
in hiring out the drywall hanging like SWMBO wants to do, I might come out
ahead.
Although I didn't highlight it, I'm curious to get people's input on the
electrical. One thing to keep in mind is that here in the Chicago area,
I've got to run everything in metal conduit, so running wire inside the
walls isn't quite as easy as drilling some holes and pulling romex through.
I've read archive posts where people found it acceptable to surface mount in
a shop situation.
thanks for your input,
todd
Find a source for 3/8" roughsaw plywood siding. It goes
by the name "roughtex" in some circles. This makes an
excellent and tough wall for a shop.
You can paint it, but it looks find left natural.
T&G pine is also another method but it's slower to
install.
I would surface mount ALL electrical in conduit.
I used plastic conduit and stranded wire. Much easier
to deal with and it goes up quick.
todd wrote:
> I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that they're
> insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall.
"Roger Shoaf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "todd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> My main question is: how big of a deal is doing the ceiling after the
> walls?
>
> I think it would be no problem. Just be sure to leave yourself a gap of
> the
> right size.
I couldn't just do the walls all the way up and start the ceiling "inside"
the drywall on the walls?
>> Also, it would be way easier in my mind to hang the drywall vertically
>> (parallel to the studs) rather than horizontally. For this application,
>> would it be OK? I'm open to any other constructive comments regarding
> this
>> plan.
>
> How tall are you? If you hang horizontally, you have the big easy seam 4
> feet off the ground and do not need to go up and down the ladder as much
> when taping. You can also use 12 footers easier and potentially elimate
> another seam or two.
I'm of average height and I also forgot to mention that these are 10-foot
walls. So, either way, somebody's getting on a ladder to tape, I imagine.
It still might be better to do it perpendicular to the studs, though. I'm
less worried about which way the walls go than I am putting the ceiling off
for now.
thanks for your response.
todd
"todd" <[email protected]> wrote on 24 Jun 2007 in group
rec.woodworking:
> I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that
> they're insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than
> drywall. I'm going to do this myself, probably with a helper who
> will probably know less about hanging drywall than I do (which isn't
> much...the white side faces out, right? ;-). Anyway, it appears that
> the recommended way to do this is to do the ceiling first, then hang
> the walls with the drywall parallel to the floor starting at the
> ceiling and working down. However, to get this thing going, I'd
> rather do the walls first. Then I would run the electric surface
> mounted on the drywall. At some later date, I would drywall the
> ceiling. My main question is: how big of a deal is doing the ceiling
> after the walls? Also, it would be way easier in my mind to hang the
> drywall vertically (parallel to the studs) rather than horizontally.
> For this application, would it be OK? I'm open to any other
> constructive comments regarding this plan.
Pegboard is light, easy to handle, and convenient. If you need to get
behind it, you just remove the mounting screws.
--
Steve B.
New Life Home Improvement
Hi Todd,
> I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls
> now that they're insulated
As other's have mentioned, your options are basically drywall, plywood,
or T&G boards.
I wouldn't suggest pegboard over bare insulation, since there would be
lots of holes leaving the flammable vapor barrier exposed. I doubt it
would meet code if you ever had the house inspected (for selling, or
whatever).
The nice thing about drywall is it's forgiving. If your cuts are less
than perfect, or your walls are out of square, you can fix it all up
during the taping stage. It's also a lot easier to fix later if you need
to cut a hole and patch it later, or if you relocate some shelving and
need to patch the screw holes left behind. Regardless of what you
install, you WILL damage it at some point, so repairs are something to
consider.
I used T&G for many of our ceilings, more for the appearance than the
strength or durability. It's less likely to be damaged on the ceiling
than it would be on the walls. However, you might want to check your
local codes. Many areas require a layer of drywall under T&G paneling, so
you might just be doubling your costs.
Also, keep in mind you can cut holes for electrical boxes or to fit
around beams or other projections easily in drywall. Just a utility knife
and/or a handheld drywall saw. If your measurements are off by a 1/4" or
so, you can patch it up during the taping stage. With T&G and plywood,
you'll have to be a lot more precise with your measurements and cuts. A
"mistake" will be there forever, or you'll have to recut a new sheet.
As for hanging things on the wall, most items like shelves or cabinets
will span more than a couple of stud bays anyway. Just use a studfinder
to locate the stud to screw the item to the wall. For smaller items
(sawhorses, extension cord reels, etc.) I like to make "racks" (kind of
like custom made coat hangers) and screw the rack to the wall, then hang
my items on the rack.
> I'm going to do this myself, probably with a helper who will
> probably know less about hanging drywall than I do (which isn't
> much...the white side faces out, right? ;-).
My wife and I drywalled our 24x28 garage, as well as all of the walls in
our house. It's really not that hard once you've hung a few sheets. I
prefer screws over nails, every 6" around the edges, and every 12" in the
middle of the sheets (into the studs, of course).
Oh, and some drywall is white on both sides... :) Put the side with the
tapered edges out. :)
If you're installing more than a few sheets, I recommend contacting a
drywall supplier and have them deliver. Drywall is heavy and they can
deliver it right into the room you're working on. Sure beats loading it
onto the cart at the home center, loading it in the truck in the parking
lot, and unloading it when you get home. Unless you want the exercise,
save your strength for hanging the drywall. You can usually get lower
prices by buying in volume too.
> the recommended way to do this is to do the ceiling first,
> then hang the walls
I've done it both ways and haven't noticed much difference. The theory is
the wall sheets help support the ceiling sheets. But with a 24'x28'
ceiling, there are lots of edges that aren't supported by the walls. I
think the more important issue is proper backing. Before you hang the
walls or the ceilings, install blocking anywhere you think you'll need to
screw up a sheet of drywall (or nail T&G, or plywood).
> it would be way easier in my mind to hang the drywall vertically
We hung ALL of our drywall vertically. I personally think it results in a
stronger installation, since all drywall edges are supported by studs and
top/bottom plates. It makes taping a little more interesting, climbing up
and down the ladder, but we hung 14' sheets vertically in our house and
it wasn't that big of a deal. Climb the ladder, tape the upper half, then
come down and tape the lower half. You have to climb up to hit all the
nail holes and the corner joints around the ceiling anyway, so it's not
that much difference.
The primary advantage of the horizontal approach is it results in less
"waviness" as you look across a long stretch of wall. You also don't end
up with any seam bumps when hanging cabinets or shelving. But like I
said, we did all our sheets vertically, and didn't notice problems with
either of those issues.
> I would run the electric surface mounted on the drywall.
It would be better to run the electrical in the wall, as any exposed
conduit is going to collect dust, get in the way of installing cabinets
and whatnot, and be more vulnerable to damage. But, since you've already
insulated, it may be too late to consider that.
You mentioned you are required to have conduit in your area. Is PVC
conduit allowed? It's easy to work with, and non-conductive. You could
install the conduit in the walls now, and put the actual wiring in later
when time and money allows.
> how big of a deal is doing the ceiling after the walls?
With proper backing for the sheet edges, no big deal at all.
> (parallel to the studs) rather than horizontally.
Not a problem at all.
Have fun!
Anthony
Ken,
> I would still recommend horizontal installation
Unless your drywall sheets are long enough to span from one side of the
room to the other, you'll end up with non-tapered butt joints somewhere
along the wall. These are MUCH harder to tape and hide without a visible
bulge. By hanging the sheet vertically, you always have tapered edges where
sheets meet up, making the taping job a lot easier.
Anthony
> Using 8' or 12' sheets, an average wall will result in what? One butt
> joint on an average wall vs. one EVERY four feet if laid on
> vertically?
The walls of most rooms are between 12 and 16 feet, which only translates
to two or three joints when the sheets are hung vertically.
In any case, we hung sheets vertically on the 28' wall of our garage, and I
can't see any waviness anywhere. That's the advantage of having the tapered
seams where the sheets meet. You can get a perfectly flat joint if you take
your time when taping.
> put in the ceiling. Do it now!
I agree, I'd do the ceiling first, even if that's all you can afford to do
right now. It's much easier to move junk off to the side to do a wall than
it would be to move everything around to get to the ceiling.
Anthony
> Ken,
>
>> I would still recommend horizontal installation
>
> Unless your drywall sheets are long enough to span from one side of the
> room to the other, you'll end up with non-tapered butt joints somewhere
> along the wall. These are MUCH harder to tape and hide without a visible
> bulge. By hanging the sheet vertically, you always have tapered edges
> where
> sheets meet up, making the taping job a lot easier.
>
> Anthony
true, it IS harder to get a smooth joint on a butt joint, however, this is
offset with three things:
1) The long running joints are basically at waist height...easy to get at
without stretching and stooping. Bad enough that you need to do that in the
corners, no sense doing it every 4' down the length of the wall, too.
2) Along the same lines, the 4' vertical joints can be done by stooping
just once and getting on the drywallers bench just once. Most people have
enough of a wingspan to handle reaching 4' without a lot of twisting.
3) The vertical joints are not as noticeable, in general, as horizontal
joints, all other things being equal...that is that you make good joints.
Final tip for a mudded wall...use a skim coat after you think you're
done...just think the crap out of the mud...think thick paint...and slap it
on, followed by a WIDE trowel. When I've done this, don't try to work ONto a
wet skim coat. Start in a corner and work as far down the wall as possible.
Then go to the next corner and do the same thing, going the same
direction...and so on around the room. Next day, go the other way around.
Prime and paint.
Luck
Mike
HerHusband <[email protected]> writes:
>Ken,
>
>> I would still recommend horizontal installation
>
>Unless your drywall sheets are long enough to span from one side of the
>room to the other, you'll end up with non-tapered butt joints somewhere
>along the wall. These are MUCH harder to tape and hide without a visible
>bulge. By hanging the sheet vertically, you always have tapered edges where
>sheets meet up, making the taping job a lot easier.
>
>Anthony
A sureform tool makes a quick taper on the butt-ends before you hang
the sheets if needed. Score the paper and a few quick swipes of the tool. Useful
also when patching.
scott
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> whit3rd wrote:
>
>
> > Gee, your code calls for EMT inside walls of a finished area?
> > Anywhere else, it's considered fire-safe to put sheetrock over
> > Romex.
>
>
> The NEC applies everywhere except Chicago, where what is known as "Hogan's
> code" is in effect.
>
> If you supply equipment to Chicago, you factor "Hogan's code" into the
> price.
>
> At least that's what used to be the case.
>
> Lew
To be honest, I've never heard it referred to as "Hogan's code", but from
other discussions I've read here and elsewhere, the residential electrical
code around here has to be just about the most strict in the country. I've
always assumed the rules are in place to protect union electricians. Every
time I see a home improvement show where people are running Romex, I think
"yeah, that would be easier".
todd
HerHusband wrote:
> Ken,
>
>> I would still recommend horizontal installation
>
> Unless your drywall sheets are long enough to span from one side of the
> room to the other, you'll end up with non-tapered butt joints somewhere
> along the wall. These are MUCH harder to tape and hide without a visible
> bulge. By hanging the sheet vertically, you always have tapered edges where
> sheets meet up, making the taping job a lot easier.
Using 8' or 12' sheets, an average wall will result in what? One butt
joint on an average wall vs. one EVERY four feet if laid on vertically?
The reason, I was told, that the drywall is laid horizontally is that
the joints at 4' high, etc. will not show up to the eye when you scan
the room. Sort of like the reason to cut your half tiles (or less)
towards the back corners of the tile field rather than front and/or center.
Maybe I missed it but another good reason to DO THE CEILING now is
simply this: What are you going to do once you hang cabinets, racks,
pegboard, etc. on the walls and THEN decide to go ahead and put in the
ceiling. Do it now! You really don't want to have to vacate that shop
for the job, do you?
Hell, my wife and I have decided to make our last stand here at the home
we build 30+ years ago rather than pack and move all our "stuff." Let
the kids worry about it after we're gone. That'll teach em!<g>
"Ken McIsaac" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> That said, I would still recommend horizontal installation, because it
> means you have to do less taping and muding. Taping sucks and should
> be avoided at all costs.
>
I generally run my sheets vertically to avoid the butt joints that come with
laying it horizontally. Seams are going to be there no matter what - you
can't put two pieces of sheet together without seams. Edge seams at least,
finish easier than butt joints.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"The Davenport's" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> true, it IS harder to get a smooth joint on a butt joint, however, this is
> offset with three things:
>
> 1) The long running joints are basically at waist height...easy to get at
> without stretching and stooping. Bad enough that you need to do that in
> the corners, no sense doing it every 4' down the length of the wall, too.
Standard ceiling heights aren't such a bad reach for the average height
person. It's less work as well, to reach and stoop to do factory joints
than it is to do butt joints. In the end you'll be doing more stooping and
reaching with butt joints than with factory joints.
>
> 2) Along the same lines, the 4' vertical joints can be done by stooping
> just once and getting on the drywallers bench just once. Most people have
> enough of a wingspan to handle reaching 4' without a lot of twisting.
>
You have to stoop for every joint - and you have to do all of the extra work
of feathering out every one of those butt joints. I've seen a lot of
sheetrock hung horizontally, and most times the butt joints show. It's not
worth taking the extra time and effort required to work those butt joints
when you can simply hang it vertically and deal with (almost) all factory
joints.
> 3) The vertical joints are not as noticeable, in general, as horizontal
> joints, all other things being equal...that is that you make good joints.
Which would be an arugment in favor or hanging it vertically and having all
vertical joints without horizontal joints.
>
> Final tip for a mudded wall...use a skim coat after you think you're
> done...just think the crap out of the mud...think thick paint...and slap
> it on, followed by a WIDE trowel. When I've done this, don't try to work
> ONto a wet skim coat. Start in a corner and work as far down the wall as
> possible. Then go to the next corner and do the same thing, going the same
> direction...and so on around the room. Next day, go the other way around.
> Prime and paint.
>
I've never tried this and it sounds like more work than just applying a good
primer coat before painting, but I'll bet it does a nice job of creating a
consistent finish on the rock so that paint does not telegraph where the
spackle is.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
You might need to use drywall for fire resistance. It's not
a great idea to have shop walls that are flammable.
todd wrote:
> I hadn't considered T&G siding. I had considered plywood, though. The
> siding would be a sight easier for me to deal with compared to the drywall.
> I imagine it's at least double the material cost of drywall, but if I factor
> in hiring out the drywall hanging like SWMBO wants to do, I might come out
> ahead.
>
> Although I didn't highlight it, I'm curious to get people's input on the
> electrical. One thing to keep in mind is that here in the Chicago area,
> I've got to run everything in metal conduit, so running wire inside the
> walls isn't quite as easy as drilling some holes and pulling romex through.
> I've read archive posts where people found it acceptable to surface mount in
> a shop situation.
>
> thanks for your input,
>
> todd
>
>
That doesn't mean it's a good idea. The owners of those nice
shops are asking for trouble.
B A R R Y wrote:
> Mike Berger wrote:
>> You might need to use drywall for fire resistance. It's not
>> a great idea to have shop walls that are flammable.
>
> Some of the nicest hobby, educational, and small pro shops have T&G wood
> walls and hardwood floors.
Mike Berger wrote:
> You might need to use drywall for fire resistance. It's not
> a great idea to have shop walls that are flammable.
...
That's being paranoid to a fault. In a frame building, the wall surface
itself is pretty immaterial.
If one is really concerned w/ a fire hazard in a shop, the most
important areas are a fire-resistant storage area for flammables and
passive sprinkler systems plus detection systems ideally connected to
local responder.
--
Scott Lurndal wrote:
> HerHusband <[email protected]> writes:
>> Ken,
>>
>>> I would still recommend horizontal installation
>> Unless your drywall sheets are long enough to span from one side of the
>> room to the other, you'll end up with non-tapered butt joints somewhere
>> along the wall. These are MUCH harder to tape and hide without a visible
>> bulge. By hanging the sheet vertically, you always have tapered edges where
>> sheets meet up, making the taping job a lot easier.
>>
>> Anthony
>
> A sureform tool makes a quick taper on the butt-ends before you hang
> the sheets if needed. Score the paper and a few quick swipes of the tool. Useful
> also when patching.
The other "trick" many pro's use (more on ceilings than walls, but it's
also possible) is to make the joint in between the main joists and
fasten to a ledger that is 1/8" or so shy of the field. Then have a
nice area in which to make the joint and fill to make the final surface
flat.
--
"Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jun 25, 1:38 am, "todd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>
> "here in the Chicago area"
>
> Are you doing a "commercial" shop? In most areas I am familiar
> with, ROMEX is acceptable for "home" applications and conduit is
> required for "commerical" applications. If you are building a "home"
> shop and haven't asked Code Enforcement, it might be worth asking.
Let's just say that the Chicago area isn't like most areas you're familiar
with ;-). Romex is not code for any interior home applications that I'm
aware of around here. The garage/shop was built last year along with a
major addition to the house, and was inspected, including the electrical.
> Having said that, it is certainly easier to la conduit outside of
> finished walls than to run it through studs - although there is a more
> flexible variety than the steel now a days - but CODE RULES if you are
> to be INSPECTED. If at all possible, route your wiring behind the
> walls. You may be able to pass inspection with that flexible spiral
> bound cable which can be easily routed through stud walls.
Except for certain (short) applications, BX or Greenfield is not allowed.
Certainly not as a replacement for conduit in a long run.
> I ran duplex outlets around the perimeter with a steady and a switched
> circuit all around the shop. You can wire the tp two outlets switched
> or just the top left (be consistent so you will remember which is
> switched!) This allowed me to leave all those transformer things
> plugged in 24/7 but able to switch them off when I left the shop.
> Saves on electricity and fire hazards. I ran 12/4 (Red, White, Black
> and Bare) but I didn't invite the inspector - hell, I told no one.
I don't plan on having this inspected, but I do plan on doing it per local
code.
thanks,
todd
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:05:08 -0500, "todd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I need to get some kind of interior finish on my shop walls now that they're
>insulated, and I can't come up with a better idea than drywall. I'm going
>to do this myself, probably with a helper who will probably know less about
>hanging drywall than I do (which isn't much...the white side faces out,
>right? ;-). Anyway, it appears that the recommended way to do this is to do
>the ceiling first, then hang the walls with the drywall parallel to the
>floor starting at the ceiling and working down. However, to get this thing
>going, I'd rather do the walls first. Then I would run the electric surface
>mounted on the drywall. At some later date, I would drywall the ceiling.
>My main question is: how big of a deal is doing the ceiling after the walls?
>Also, it would be way easier in my mind to hang the drywall vertically
>(parallel to the studs) rather than horizontally. For this application,
>would it be OK? I'm open to any other constructive comments regarding this
>plan.
>
>todd
>
I did my shop with drywall. Since it was not an occupied space and
separate from the main house, I used 3/8" drywall all around to make
the job a little easier. However, check your codes, mine allowed it.
Ceiling first so that you don't have to match up to any crooked walls
and probably takes movement without cracking better. Make a couple of
T-bars, or rent a lift.
Horizontal actually easier, in my opinion, you can rig some step on
lifts to close the seams, simple levers on blocks, although they sell
or rent some devices that do that. I like working that horizontal
seam four foot high, easier than working a lot of top to bottom seams.
Why would you not put the electrical in first?
The drywall was primarily to seal the insulation. After finished I
installed a bunch of framed sections of perf board to hang stuff on.
The drywall has held up well, despite my propensity to swing boards
and tools into it. Haven't punched any holes yet.
This from an individual who hates floating drywall but can do it when
necessary.
Frank
"Scott Zrubek" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> I found a reasonable source for slatwall on craigslist and will be using
> that to surface my shop when it gets finished in a couple of months.
> It's normally exorbitant when compared to drywall. With the craigslist
> deal it was merely expensive.
Slatwall??
Isn't that stuff the ultimate dustcatcher?
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:38:35 -0500, "todd" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Roger Shoaf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "todd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> My main question is: how big of a deal is doing the ceiling after the
>> walls?
>>
>> I think it would be no problem. Just be sure to leave yourself a gap of
>> the
>> right size.
>
>I couldn't just do the walls all the way up and start the ceiling "inside"
>the drywall on the walls?
>
>>> Also, it would be way easier in my mind to hang the drywall vertically
>>> (parallel to the studs) rather than horizontally. For this application,
>>> would it be OK? I'm open to any other constructive comments regarding
>> this
>>> plan.
>>
>> How tall are you? If you hang horizontally, you have the big easy seam 4
>> feet off the ground and do not need to go up and down the ladder as much
>> when taping. You can also use 12 footers easier and potentially elimate
>> another seam or two.
>
>I'm of average height and I also forgot to mention that these are 10-foot
>walls. So, either way, somebody's getting on a ladder to tape, I imagine.
>It still might be better to do it perpendicular to the studs, though. I'm
>less worried about which way the walls go than I am putting the ceiling off
>for now.
I'm pretty sure you can do both of what you are describing (walls
before ceiling, and vertical installation). The pros don't install
boards vertically because it is faster the other way and because you
get a better finish. Vertical edges are harder to feather than
horizontal edges. Unless your mudding job is perfect, the repeated
vertical edges every four feet will be visible through your finish,
and tend to be more distracting than a single edge four feet from the
floor.
The pros also hang the ceiling first, then butt the walls up to it
because it is possible (provided your ceiling joists are perfectly
level) to get perfect seams at the ceiling without stressing the
sheet. You will find it very hard to put the last sheet in without
leaving a gap of 1/4" or so if you hang the walls first.
HOWEVER, as any amateur who has ever hung drywall can tell you, enough
mud and enough sanding will fix all of these problems. You might get
cracks in the finish someday. So what? It's your shop, not your
dining room. You will almost certainly put a six-foot piece of walnut
through the wall someday, as well. That is why they made patching
compound. :)
That said, I would still recommend horizontal installation, because it
means you have to do less taping and muding. Taping sucks and should
be avoided at all costs.
Good luck with your upgrades.
- Ken
>
>thanks for your response.
>
>todd
>
Mike Berger wrote:
> That doesn't mean it's a good idea. The owners of those nice
> shops are asking for trouble.
Even Norm has wooden shop walls. <G>
Seriously, though... Finishing area walls would probably be best
covered with fireproof material. Even a relatively clean shop is going
to have shavings, scraps, dust, and stored stock. Possibly enough fuel
to make the actual wall covering irrelevant during an unattended fire.
I'll agree that it's not work losing sleep over. If the hazards of a
wood wall covering bothers you more than drywall, than drywall it should be.
In article <[email protected]>,
bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Todd,
>
> I put up drywall, but that is your call. I suggest that for lighting,
> be sure and consider track lights over where you think your tools will
> be. If you add more power tools you can add to your tracks and put
> light exactly where you want it. I used halogens over the work bench
> and finally I could read my dimensions even in winter when it was dark
> outside.
>
> I also suggest you do the ceiling first. I like the idea of OSB. I
> used drywall and used pegboard liberally. I hate having to look for a
> tool and know I have it but can't find it.
>
> Bill in New Mexico
I found a reasonable source for slatwall on craigslist and will be using
that to surface my shop when it gets finished in a couple of months.
It's normally exorbitant when compared to drywall. With the craigslist
deal it was merely expensive.
In article <[email protected]>,
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Scott Zrubek" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > I found a reasonable source for slatwall on craigslist and will be using
> > that to surface my shop when it gets finished in a couple of months.
> > It's normally exorbitant when compared to drywall. With the craigslist
> > deal it was merely expensive.
>
> Slatwall??
>
> Isn't that stuff the ultimate dustcatcher?
Probably. It may prove to be a very bad idea, but at least I'll be able
to move any mounted tools about at will.
Updates in 12 months.
todd wrote:
> Don't worry, Lew. They've cleaned all of that up. No more shady
stuff like
> that in the city anymore. Riiiiight.
And if you think I believe that, we should get together and talk about
some swampland over in Arizona.
As the used car dealers in Florida used to say, "Son, step right in
and let me show you a couple of clean northern cars we just got".
Lew