Last year I invested in all the ingredients to sharpen with the
sandpaper method (a piece of plate glass, honing guide, and lots of
sandpaper from 600 to 2000 grit). After using this method for a year,
I've concluded that I go through way too much sandpaper to make it
economical. It seems to me that the automotive sandpaper I use
becomes useless after just a few passes over one spot, and I go
through a ton of it as a result. My question is, do others using this
method find this to be the case, or am I expecting too much from the
sandpaper. Secondly, what type of stones should I invest in instead
of sandpaper. I'm leading towards Japanese water stones, and what
combination of grits would suffice?
On Feb 4, 9:36 am, "Doug" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Last year I invested in all the ingredients to sharpen with the
> sandpaper method (a piece of plate glass, honing guide, and lots of
> sandpaper from 600 to 2000 grit). After using this method for a year,
> I've concluded that I go through way too much sandpaper to make it
> economical. It seems to me that the automotive sandpaper I use
> becomes useless after just a few passes over one spot, and I go
> through a ton of it as a result. My question is, do others using this
> method find this to be the case, or am I expecting too much from the
> sandpaper. Secondly, what type of stones should I invest in instead
> of sandpaper. I'm leading towards Japanese water stones, and what
> combination of grits would suffice?
I'm one of the "guilty", obsessing about sharpening on this group.
That doesn't mean I know everything, just that I'm trying to record
what I've learned (so far).
I found that the 3M microabrasive paper with a baby oil lubricant
lasts a lot longer than the paper I got at the automotive store. You
can get a 15, 5, and .3 micron w/ PSA backing from
www.antiquetools.com for $11.55. Before you give up on sandpaper, you
might want to give that a shot before investing in stones.
If you are the type that likes to read about sharpening with
sandpaper, check this out: http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/ I think
Beach provides a lot of good, scientific, information.
Mark
On Feb 4, 12:36 pm, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
> > Getting the Lapped Flatbackof the chisel or iron is the PITA
> > part - which only needs to be done once. WHY DON'T THEY DO
> > THAT AT THEFACTORY!? They've got the machines, why not
> > use them and save us a bunch of grief? I'm more than willing
> > to pay a few extra bucks for a chisel with a dead flat polished
> > back. Hell another $10 for a lapped flat ironbackis worth it.
>
> AMEN!! Are you listening, Rob Lee?
Lee Valley now laps their plane blades. Read the "tech" link on this
page:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46294&cat=1,41182,48944
Mark
I'm kinda old school too. I did break down and buy a coarse grit
diamond for when things need it. 2 sided India stone. Light
Arkansas. Leather with rouge. I have a black Arkansas, but I
don't have the patience to use it. I can hurt myself, shave hair
off my arm, scrape glue, make shavings, and chop out mortises with
what I have and see no reason for a mirror finish that I will just
abuse.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
[email protected] (local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> So what is this sharpening mania, exactly?
>>
>> Have we all been so infected with the "new and improved" ethos
>> that
>> "tried and true" is little better than a leper?
>>
>> This group has got any number of folks who get excited by the
>> prospect
>> of aquiring an 80 year old handplane, and do all their work
>> with hand
>> tools- but when it comes to caring for those tools, those same
>> people
>> who made those coveted old hand tools must have been dead wrong
>> when
>> it came time to put an edge on them. Why?
>
> Philosophically I tend to agree with you... comes from my having
> worked at Colonial Williamsburg, VA. It took my kids meeting Roy
> Underhill and hanging around with him for a few hours for them
> to gain an appreciation for handtools and old methodologies.
>
> Where we may diverge a bit is on the old tools. Simply from an
> opportunity cost perspective I'd rather spend money on L-N tools
> than spend countless hours reviving old tools. I've revived some
> old tools in the past (planes mostly) but spent so much time
> looking for or repairing parts and "tuning" the tools up that it
> made no economic sense, e.g., spend 3-5 hours repairing/tuning
> up an old Stanley No 4 and how much is it worth when you're
> done? When I take into account the time it took to tune my
> Stanley block plans I'd have been way ahead of the game to buy
> some L-N block planes. The Stanley 45 I have was found in the
> basement of the house I bought and it was basically new--factory
> grind on all the cutters. That plane has been worth the effort
> to sharpen cutters as needed but ONLY as needed.
>
> BTW, I've used Arkansas stones for over 30 years and don't plan
> on switching to something else in my life time... they work. I
> tried several different honing guides over the years and found
> that I can do a fine job by hand using feel to guide the angle.
> If you put a bunch of Starrett measuring tools to them I'm sure
> you could find things to criticize but the bottom line is the
> tools cut as they were designed to...
>
> John
>
On 6 Feb 2007 19:59:29 -0800, "Mark Wells" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Feb 4, 12:36 pm, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>> > Getting the Lapped Flatbackof the chisel or iron is the PITA
>> > part - which only needs to be done once. WHY DON'T THEY DO
>> > THAT AT THEFACTORY!? They've got the machines, why not
>> > use them and save us a bunch of grief? I'm more than willing
>> > to pay a few extra bucks for a chisel with a dead flat polished
>> > back. Hell another $10 for a lapped flat ironbackis worth it.
>>
>> AMEN!! Are you listening, Rob Lee?
>
>Lee Valley now laps their plane blades. Read the "tech" link on this
>page:
>
>http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=46294&cat=1,41182,48944
That was fast.
-Leuf
Doug,
Maybe you are expecting too much, or cutting too much metal...
I grind my blades on the grinder--once--to get shape and bevel angle about
right. Of course disasters have to be ground out, but those only happen to
the other guy, right???
I use 3M gold sandpaper for low number grits, and automotive silicon carbide
for 600+ grits.
I polish the primary bevel from 150 to 320 grit, then work on the secondary
bevel from 320 to 2000.
Usually about 10-20 passes over each grit.
At the end I reliably get a razor (as in hair off the back of my hand) edge.
I use a file card brush on the paper each time to remove swarf. (Magnet in
a plastic bag works great too).
Low grits will probably do 6 plane irons, and a dozen chisels. (That's
about 2 months worth for me, when the weather is warm.) High grits about
double that amount--after all, I'm just honing, not cutting an edge.
I use 1/3 sheet strips for my sharpening. I don't find my sandpaper costs
daunting.
That's my experience, YMMV.
Old Guy
Exiled from the shop by below 0 weather.
"Doug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Last year I invested in all the ingredients to sharpen with the
> sandpaper method (a piece of plate glass, honing guide, and lots of
> sandpaper from 600 to 2000 grit). After using this method for a year,
> I've concluded that I go through way too much sandpaper to make it
> economical. It seems to me that the automotive sandpaper I use
> becomes useless after just a few passes over one spot, and I go
> through a ton of it as a result. My question is, do others using this
> method find this to be the case, or am I expecting too much from the
> sandpaper. Secondly, what type of stones should I invest in instead
> of sandpaper. I'm leading towards Japanese water stones, and what
> combination of grits would suffice?
>
Then you can use the waterstones to sharpen, the flattening stone to flatten
the water stone and sandpaper to flatten the flattening stone. Next, you
need a sandpaper manufacturing kit.
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I was thinking of trying this from Lee Valley, but haven't invested in one
> yet:
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=55067&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1
>
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 23:50:41 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> Forge welding *is* awfully neat- that's on the agenda for my next
> blacksmithing lesson, and I'm really looking forward to it. Too bad I
> can't try it out in advance- but the ambient air is just too cold for
> my propane forge to get hot enough during the winter unless I figure
> out a way to preheat the air before it hits the blower.
I wonder if a sheet metal hood around the forge might be enough?
> The other thing that is awfully interesting (though it may not sound
> like it) is making nails. The fella that is teaching me showed me how
> to do that last time, as practice until my next lesson and it's a
> pretty neat process. I don't figure I'll be using them for building
> structures anytime soon, but I might make a rustic-looking box or two
> with some of my handmade nails.
I tried my hand at that... I shared an apartment with one of the blacksmiths
for a while and he let me try it one day while I was at the blacksmith shop.
> Hopefully by next winter, I'll have a coal forge for doing that sort
> of thing when it's this cold- provided I can make that happen without
> covering the neighbors' houses in soot, that is!
I did some forge work while at CW while working at the gunsmith shop...
helped forge and weld rifle barrels, and forged small parts like patch box
springs, trigger plates, etc. Cold wasn't a problem. Forge welding when it's
90+ degree and 90%+ humidity on a coal forge is the hottest dirtiest work I
ever did. Glad I had the chance!
Blacksmithing is pretty neat but does demand a separate work area and unless
you live in isolation you generally cannot do it early in the morning or
late at night. I remember when I was a kid that the old guy across the
street from us used to forge items. As a child in Poland he was apprenticed
as a blacksmith. He came to the U.S. after WWII and went to work in auto
body shops hammering cars back into shape. When he died his wife sold the
farm and gave our family his anvil. Unfortunately, I was a kid and didn't
know enough to grab the tongs, hardies, hammers, etc. The scrap dealer got
it all... My father still has the anvil.
John
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 23:50:41 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>CW is a great place to visit... It is important to note though that you will
>get out of it what you put into it... if you go as a passive observer it
>isn't nearly as interesting as if you go as an active participant. There are
>a tremendous number of experiences to be had there if you seek them out.
I'm sure I'll be unable to resist trying to get my hands dirty when I
make it there some day. I'll have to talk with the wife about it, and
see if we can make some time for that this year.
>RE the blacksmith shop, Peter Ross and Ken Schwartz have done a fine job
>with the shop. They make some pretty neat stuff there and it's always
>exciting to watch forge welding. BTW, Roy and his carpenters built the
>blacksmith shop building.
Forge welding *is* awfully neat- that's on the agenda for my next
blacksmithing lesson, and I'm really looking forward to it. Too bad I
can't try it out in advance- but the ambient air is just too cold for
my propane forge to get hot enough during the winter unless I figure
out a way to preheat the air before it hits the blower.
The other thing that is awfully interesting (though it may not sound
like it) is making nails. The fella that is teaching me showed me how
to do that last time, as practice until my next lesson and it's a
pretty neat process. I don't figure I'll be using them for building
structures anytime soon, but I might make a rustic-looking box or two
with some of my handmade nails.
Hopefully by next winter, I'll have a coal forge for doing that sort
of thing when it's this cold- provided I can make that happen without
covering the neighbors' houses in soot, that is!
CW wrote:
>
> If you want to go by what is commonly pushed on this group, expect to spend
> a lot of money on waterstones and waste a lot of time sharpening (and
> maintaining the sharpening equipment) instead of woodworking. If you want to
> save a bunch of money and time getting a great edge, send me an email. I
> don't feel like getting into a religious argument and sharpening is a
> religious subject with many.
Ain't that the truth.
Every once in a while I pop in a Tage Frid video and watch him
use an upside down belt sander, probably with an 80 grit belt
in it, to sharpen his chisel. A few seconds of flying sparks
and that Put You Teeth On Edge noise and he's back to chiseling
dovetails - or whatever.
Getting the Lapped Flat back of the chisel or iron is the PITA
part - which only needs to be done once. WHY DON'T THEY DO
THAT AT THE FACTORY!? They've got the machines, why not
use them and save us a bunch of grief? I'm more than willing
to pay a few extra bucks for a chisel with a dead flat polished
back. Hell another $10 for a lapped flat iron back is worth it.
RE: japanese waterstones - they get the job done quicker than
most other methods. BUT - they're messy and you need a
flattening stone or ceramic flattening "stone" to keep them
flat since they wear pretty quickly - by intent - it's the slurry
that does the work. And if you're starting out with a dinged
chisel or iron you need four of five stones 200, 400, 800
1000, 4000 and if you're anal about shiny - maybe an 8000.
And with the 4K and 8K, you've got to be careful you don't
put a gouge in them because their pretty soft. Catch a corner
or raise the work a little too high and you'll spend 5 minutes
reflattening the stone, a minute or two cleaning up the
flattening "stone" and forget where the hell you were BEFORE
the OOPS!.
And if you do any turning or carving, SCARY SHARP (tm),
waterstones etc. are almost useless for curved edges.
Turning tools see more wear in a minute than most chisels
and plane irons see in a month.
That's where grinders come into play. But even then it's
not One Does It All. The high and even "low" speed grinders
will remove dings and restore a bevel -but a) can burn
the steel and b) leave lots of scratches. The VERY low
speed wet grinders (Tormek and now JET) will touch up
a bevel and burnish it - but are slow as hell - and need
jigs. Then there's the JoolTool which isn't like anything
else in the sharpening realm. You can grind a new profile
quickly without fear of burning an edge - and you can
polish the hell out of the bevel and get an amazing edge
-IF you have good eye/hand coordination - because YOU
are the jig.
Because it's small I've got mine mounted on a little
shelf on the left side of my little lathe bench, all it's
Ninja Wheels for the various grits on a pegs on the
wall behind it. A quick touch up with a 10 micron
followed by a 5 micron and it's back to the wood.
BUT I wouldn't use it on an iron or even a wide bench
chisel.
Sure wish they'd shown Norm sharpening things
BEFORE I got into woodworking. NAH - I'd still
have gotten onto this slippery slope. The ride
is just too much fun!
charlie b
Sun, Feb 4, 2007, 10:03am (EST-3) [email protected] (charlie=A0b)
doth sayeth:
Every once in a while I pop in a Tage Frid video and watch him =A0 use
an upside down belt sander, probably with an 80 grit belt =A0 in it, to
sharpen his chisel. A few seconds of flying sparks =A0 and that Put You
Teeth On Edge noise and he's back to chiseling =A0 dovetails - or
whatever. <snip>
I'm always kinda fascinated by him. I sharpen my chisels, lathe
tools, and knives, on my little bench belt sander. Way I see it, any
time I use them, the angle I use 'em at is constantly changing, so the
angle on them are probably just not that important - a case of "close
enough, is good enough".. Works for me, and I like it a lot more than
using a grinder.
Plane blades on the other hand, I figure need to have the angle as
precise as reasonably possible, because they are used at set angles
only. So, for plane blades I would definitely use a jig, and probably
Scary Sharp (TM).
JOAT
Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly will
acquire the skill to do difficult things easily.
- Johann Von Schiller
"Doug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Last year I invested in all the ingredients to sharpen with the
> sandpaper method (a piece of plate glass, honing guide, and lots of
> sandpaper from 600 to 2000 grit). After using this method for a year,
> I've concluded that I go through way too much sandpaper to make it
> economical. It seems to me that the automotive sandpaper I use
> becomes useless after just a few passes over one spot, and I go
> through a ton of it as a result. My question is, do others using this
> method find this to be the case, or am I expecting too much from the
> sandpaper. Secondly, what type of stones should I invest in instead
> of sandpaper. I'm leading towards Japanese water stones, and what
> combination of grits would suffice?
>
You didn't mention what you are sharpening, but for chisels I use a water
stone. I re-flatten the water stone with wet-dry sandpaper on a granite
surface plate.
I was thinking of trying this from Lee Valley, but haven't invested in one
yet:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=55067&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1
For jointer and planer knives I use sandpaper.
--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Then you can use the waterstones to sharpen, the flattening stone to
> flatten
> the water stone and sandpaper to flatten the flattening stone. Next, you
> need a sandpaper manufacturing kit.
I thought you didn't want to get into a religious argument? :)
The granite plate doesn't get abraded (not supposed to anyway), therefore it
'should' stay flat.
--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com
--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What? You don't work up to a billion grit? How dare you post this?
I only go to a billion grit (See Lee Valley for billion/trillion grit combo
water stone) when making pukey ducks. Everything else gets less attention.
Sun, Feb 4, 2007, 1:09pm .@. (Stoutman) doth sayeth:
I only go to a billion grit (See Lee Valley for billion/trillion grit
combo water stone) when making pukey ducks. Everything else gets less
attention.
And the Woodworking Gods love you for having your priorities right.
JOAT
Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly will
acquire the skill to do difficult things easily.
- Johann Von Schiller
> You didn't mention what you are sharpening, but for chisels I use a water
> stone. I re-flatten the water stone with wet-dry sandpaper on a granite
> surface plate.
> For jointer and planer knives I use sandpaper.
I've got to say that I pretty much agree with Stoutman. I have a granite
sink cutout that I use with sandpaper... but only for sharprning jointer &
planer blades, and also to do serious lapping (the sole of a plane, or
initial flattening on a new chisel)
I use a combo waterstone (1200/4000, IIRC) to freehand sharpen chisels and
such. With free hand sharpening, I eventually end up with a convex bevel. To
fix that I will go back to the bench grinder to take the crown of the bevel.
I could do that job with sandpaper, but it would take longer. I only feel
the need to do that after a dozen sharpenings.
I have probably flattened my waterstone 3 times in18 years of light use. Set
a full sheet of sandpaper on a flat surface (like your table saw top). Rub
the stone on that.
-Steve
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Not talking about the granite plate, talking about the flattening stone
> you
> linked to. It DOES wear.
>
Got ya. That's the main reason I have not bought it so far. I was
skeptical of how long it would stay flat.
If it is easier/faster to use than wet/dry paper, I might be willing to
flatten my stone more often.
Stoutman wrote:
> "Doug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Last year I invested in all the ingredients to sharpen with the
>> sandpaper method (a piece of plate glass, honing guide, and lots of
>> sandpaper from 600 to 2000 grit). After using this method for a year,
>> I've concluded that I go through way too much sandpaper to make it
>> economical. It seems to me that the automotive sandpaper I use
>> becomes useless after just a few passes over one spot, and I go
>> through a ton of it as a result. My question is, do others using this
>> method find this to be the case, or am I expecting too much from the
>> sandpaper. Secondly, what type of stones should I invest in instead
>> of sandpaper. I'm leading towards Japanese water stones, and what
>> combination of grits would suffice?
>>
>
> You didn't mention what you are sharpening, but for chisels I use a water
> stone. I re-flatten the water stone with wet-dry sandpaper on a granite
> surface plate.
> I was thinking of trying this from Lee Valley, but haven't invested in one
> yet:
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=55067&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1
>
I have one. It is wonderful. Flattens the stone easily and does a nice job.
Tanus
--
This is not really a sig.
http://users.compzone.ca/george/shop/
So what is this sharpening mania, exactly?
Have we all been so infected with the "new and improved" ethos that
"tried and true" is little better than a leper?
This group has got any number of folks who get excited by the prospect
of aquiring an 80 year old handplane, and do all their work with hand
tools- but when it comes to caring for those tools, those same people
who made those coveted old hand tools must have been dead wrong when
it came time to put an edge on them. Why?
Guaranteed, you go into an antique shop and look at the old furniture,
the tools that made them were sharpened on oil stones. They didn't
make a six month journey to Japan to purchase a gazillion-grit water
stone every couple of years, and nobody was using special automotive
sandpaper before the invention of the automobile.
If you can't sharpen your tools on a quarried stone, you don't know
how to sharpen yet. Put your wallet back in your pocket, and spend a
few hours learning to do it. All the fancy jigs and grits in the
world will not compensate for such a basic skill. I'd bet a fair
amount of money that a guy that can't sharpen a chisel without
assistance can't really use it effectively, either- you don't use a
jig for that, too- do you? If you're just into making them shiny and
shaving your arm, you can do that the old way, too- only you can do it
any time, not just when your jig and 50pc set of waterstones or
assortment of microfine sandpapers is at hand.
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:49:00 -0500, Tanus <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I have one. It is wonderful. Flattens the stone easily and does a nice job.
>
I use XC/C/F/XF diamond plates (2 plates, double sided) and 4000 and
8000 grit waterstones.
The diamond plates flatten the waterstones nicely. There's also
nothing to soak. The plates and fine stones simply need a spritz.
What? You don't work up to a billion grit? How dare you post this?
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> One more thing, I use a 1000/4000 combination Norton water stone for
> chisels.
>
> --
> Stoutman
> www.garagewoodworks.com
>
>
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
> Getting the Lapped Flat back of the chisel or iron is the PITA
> part - which only needs to be done once. WHY DON'T THEY DO
> THAT AT THE FACTORY!? They've got the machines, why not
> use them and save us a bunch of grief? I'm more than willing
> to pay a few extra bucks for a chisel with a dead flat polished
> back. Hell another $10 for a lapped flat iron back is worth it.
AMEN!! Are you listening, Rob Lee?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Not talking about the granite plate, talking about the flattening stone you
linked to. It DOES wear.
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Then you can use the waterstones to sharpen, the flattening stone to
> > flatten
> > the water stone and sandpaper to flatten the flattening stone. Next, you
> > need a sandpaper manufacturing kit.
>
>
> I thought you didn't want to get into a religious argument? :)
>
> The granite plate doesn't get abraded (not supposed to anyway), therefore
it
> 'should' stay flat.
>
> --
> Stoutman
> www.garagewoodworks.com
>
>
On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 00:32:43 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 23:50:41 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Forge welding *is* awfully neat- that's on the agenda for my next
>> blacksmithing lesson, and I'm really looking forward to it. Too bad I
>> can't try it out in advance- but the ambient air is just too cold for
>> my propane forge to get hot enough during the winter unless I figure
>> out a way to preheat the air before it hits the blower.
>
>I wonder if a sheet metal hood around the forge might be enough?
I've been thinking about that- it seems like it could work. I also
read about a guy who was speculating about putting another layer of
metal around the outside of the forge and ducting it to the fan.
While the Kaowool I used to line it is good, it's not so good that it
keeps every degree of the 2200*F+ temp inside the forge, and it may as
well be reused somehow. Only concern was that trapping the heat might
cause the primary forge body to melt or warp.
>> The other thing that is awfully interesting (though it may not sound
>> like it) is making nails. The fella that is teaching me showed me how
>> to do that last time, as practice until my next lesson and it's a
>> pretty neat process. I don't figure I'll be using them for building
>> structures anytime soon, but I might make a rustic-looking box or two
>> with some of my handmade nails.
>
>I tried my hand at that... I shared an apartment with one of the blacksmiths
>for a while and he let me try it one day while I was at the blacksmith shop.
>
>> Hopefully by next winter, I'll have a coal forge for doing that sort
>> of thing when it's this cold- provided I can make that happen without
>> covering the neighbors' houses in soot, that is!
>
>I did some forge work while at CW while working at the gunsmith shop...
>helped forge and weld rifle barrels, and forged small parts like patch box
>springs, trigger plates, etc. Cold wasn't a problem. Forge welding when it's
>90+ degree and 90%+ humidity on a coal forge is the hottest dirtiest work I
>ever did. Glad I had the chance!
Nope- cold is definately not a problem when it comes to comfort! Just
need to preheat the air flow with in a gas rig if you want to weld. I
got it to welding heat when it was 40* outside, but subzero is just
too chilly to be blowing into my blast chamber.
>Blacksmithing is pretty neat but does demand a separate work area and unless
>you live in isolation you generally cannot do it early in the morning or
>late at night. I remember when I was a kid that the old guy across the
>street from us used to forge items. As a child in Poland he was apprenticed
>as a blacksmith. He came to the U.S. after WWII and went to work in auto
>body shops hammering cars back into shape. When he died his wife sold the
>farm and gave our family his anvil. Unfortunately, I was a kid and didn't
>know enough to grab the tongs, hardies, hammers, etc. The scrap dealer got
>it all... My father still has the anvil.
I am kind of lucky in my situation- my wood shop is in the basement,
so the garage is free for blacksmithing, and the garage is
underground, so the sound does not carry much, if at all. At least,
no one has said anything about me banging on steel at 3am *yet*!
It is silicon carbide (the same stuff wheel dressing sticks are made from)
so it should stay flat for a pretty long time. It is much harder than the
waterstones. Should cut very quickly. If I were you though, the first thing
I would do when I got it is to check it for flat. No telling what care they
took when making it.
"Stoutman" <.@.> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Not talking about the granite plate, talking about the flattening stone
> > you
> > linked to. It DOES wear.
> >
>
> Got ya. That's the main reason I have not bought it so far. I was
> skeptical of how long it would stay flat.
>
> If it is easier/faster to use than wet/dry paper, I might be willing to
> flatten my stone more often.
>
>
On 4 Feb 2007 07:36:52 -0800, "Doug" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Last year I invested in all the ingredients to sharpen with the
>sandpaper method (a piece of plate glass, honing guide, and lots of
>sandpaper from 600 to 2000 grit). After using this method for a year,
>I've concluded that I go through way too much sandpaper to make it
>economical. It seems to me that the automotive sandpaper I use
>becomes useless after just a few passes over one spot, and I go
>through a ton of it as a result. My question is, do others using this
>method find this to be the case, or am I expecting too much from the
>sandpaper. Secondly, what type of stones should I invest in instead
>of sandpaper. I'm leading towards Japanese water stones, and what
>combination of grits would suffice?
Arkansaw stones.
You want to save money, and you're looking at water stones?
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 01:05:34 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>
>>Philosophically I tend to agree with you... comes from my having worked at
>>Colonial Williamsburg, VA. It took my kids meeting Roy Underhill and
>>hanging
>>around with him for a few hours for them to gain an appreciation for
>>handtools and old methodologies.
>
> One of these days, I am going to have to take a vacation and visit
> those folks- sounds like a thing to see. They've got quite a
> reputation amongst blacksmiths as well, from what I gather.
CW is a great place to visit... It is important to note though that you will
get out of it what you put into it... if you go as a passive observer it
isn't nearly as interesting as if you go as an active participant. There are
a tremendous number of experiences to be had there if you seek them out.
RE the blacksmith shop, Peter Ross and Ken Schwartz have done a fine job
with the shop. They make some pretty neat stuff there and it's always
exciting to watch forge welding. BTW, Roy and his carpenters built the
blacksmith shop building.
John
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 01:05:34 GMT, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>Philosophically I tend to agree with you... comes from my having worked at
>Colonial Williamsburg, VA. It took my kids meeting Roy Underhill and hanging
>around with him for a few hours for them to gain an appreciation for
>handtools and old methodologies.
One of these days, I am going to have to take a vacation and visit
those folks- sounds like a thing to see. They've got quite a
reputation amongst blacksmiths as well, from what I gather.
>Where we may diverge a bit is on the old tools. Simply from an opportunity
>cost perspective I'd rather spend money on L-N tools than spend countless
>hours reviving old tools. I've revived some old tools in the past (planes
>mostly) but spent so much time looking for or repairing parts and "tuning"
>the tools up that it made no economic sense, e.g., spend 3-5 hours
>repairing/tuning up an old Stanley No 4 and how much is it worth when you're
>done? When I take into account the time it took to tune my Stanley block
>plans I'd have been way ahead of the game to buy some L-N block planes. The
>Stanley 45 I have was found in the basement of the house I bought and it was
>basically new--factory grind on all the cutters. That plane has been worth
>the effort to sharpen cutters as needed but ONLY as needed.
Not so much of a divergence as you might think- I don't toss out old
tools, but I generally buy new as well. Except for the cases where I
make my own- but those are new as well, of course! It's not so much a
matter of taking the time to restore them as it is taking the time
(and getting up when it is essentially "the middle of the night" for
me) to go to antique shops or auctions where such things might be
found.
>BTW, I've used Arkansas stones for over 30 years and don't plan on switching
>to something else in my life time... they work. I tried several different
>honing guides over the years and found that I can do a fine job by hand
>using feel to guide the angle. If you put a bunch of Starrett measuring
>tools to them I'm sure you could find things to criticize but the bottom
>line is the tools cut as they were designed to...
Exactly my point. Well, at least there are a few guys that haven't
totally lost if over the idea of sharpening!
If you want to go by what is commonly pushed on this group, expect to spend
a lot of money on waterstones and waste a lot of time sharpening (and
maintaining the sharpening equipment) instead of woodworking. If you want to
save a bunch of money and time getting a great edge, send me an email. I
don't feel like getting into a religious argument and sharpening is a
religious subject with many.
"Doug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Last year I invested in all the ingredients to sharpen with the
> sandpaper method (a piece of plate glass, honing guide, and lots of
> sandpaper from 600 to 2000 grit). After using this method for a year,
> I've concluded that I go through way too much sandpaper to make it
> economical. It seems to me that the automotive sandpaper I use
> becomes useless after just a few passes over one spot, and I go
> through a ton of it as a result. My question is, do others using this
> method find this to be the case, or am I expecting too much from the
> sandpaper. Secondly, what type of stones should I invest in instead
> of sandpaper. I'm leading towards Japanese water stones, and what
> combination of grits would suffice?
>
"> You didn't mention what you are sharpening, but for chisels I use a water
> stone. I re-flatten the water stone with wet-dry sandpaper on a granite
> surface plate.
> I was thinking of trying this from Lee Valley, but haven't invested in one
> yet:
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=55067&cat=1,43072,43071&ap=1
>
I got one a couple of weeks ago.. Wish I would have done it sooner. Hell
of a lot faster than other methods and less mess too.
Roger
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So what is this sharpening mania, exactly?
>
> Have we all been so infected with the "new and improved" ethos that
> "tried and true" is little better than a leper?
>
> This group has got any number of folks who get excited by the prospect
> of aquiring an 80 year old handplane, and do all their work with hand
> tools- but when it comes to caring for those tools, those same people
> who made those coveted old hand tools must have been dead wrong when
> it came time to put an edge on them. Why?
Philosophically I tend to agree with you... comes from my having worked at
Colonial Williamsburg, VA. It took my kids meeting Roy Underhill and hanging
around with him for a few hours for them to gain an appreciation for
handtools and old methodologies.
Where we may diverge a bit is on the old tools. Simply from an opportunity
cost perspective I'd rather spend money on L-N tools than spend countless
hours reviving old tools. I've revived some old tools in the past (planes
mostly) but spent so much time looking for or repairing parts and "tuning"
the tools up that it made no economic sense, e.g., spend 3-5 hours
repairing/tuning up an old Stanley No 4 and how much is it worth when you're
done? When I take into account the time it took to tune my Stanley block
plans I'd have been way ahead of the game to buy some L-N block planes. The
Stanley 45 I have was found in the basement of the house I bought and it was
basically new--factory grind on all the cutters. That plane has been worth
the effort to sharpen cutters as needed but ONLY as needed.
BTW, I've used Arkansas stones for over 30 years and don't plan on switching
to something else in my life time... they work. I tried several different
honing guides over the years and found that I can do a fine job by hand
using feel to guide the angle. If you put a bunch of Starrett measuring
tools to them I'm sure you could find things to criticize but the bottom
line is the tools cut as they were designed to...
John