I'm pretty new and after most of the first semester at the local
community, I'm finally ready to buy some of my own tools (starting
from nothing). Given the constraints of money and space, I'm going to
be working outside and need a portable substitute for a tablesaw to do
rip cuts on lumber and sheet products. I'm pretty new and get freaked
out by exposed spinning blades (including the Sawstop they use in
class), so a contractor's saw is not my favorite option for now.
DeWalt, Festool, and Eurekazone (which works with a third party
circular saw) all have similar-looking systems. Anyone have
experience with them? Would a heavy worktable and a couple of
sawhorses be adequate support for doing longer rip cuts?
Suggestions on substitute devices are also welcome. My main interest
at this point, given my current skills and budget, is in having tools
to do craft-type furniture--benches, tables, chairs, smaller cabinet
type work.
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:gg9lm8$odj$1
@nntp.motzarella.org:
>
> You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people?
> Same thing goes for tools.
>
> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
There are dangerous tools out there. For one example, take a dremel tool
with cut off disk. If you get the disk just a little out of alignment, the
disk will break and be sent flying all over the place.
The easiest way to make it safer is to use a thicker disk, but they
sometimes break and disintegrate too.
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
> > You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people?
> > Same thing goes for tools.
> > There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. =A0 :-)
>
Not necessarily. How about people who are tired or distracted by
something or just in a little too much of a hurry. Not stupid- just
ordinary people like us. Don't say it can't happen to me. Add "yet"
after statements like that. Nobody plans to have an accident.
Richard
Honestly, after you get only slightly more experienced, you won't want
to be struggling with some compromised Half-Answer for a table saw.
There are dozens for sale on Craig List for $100 or less. Look for cast
irn table and side extensions. I just got one for my retired father for
$50 in perfect condition, hardly used with accessories. Found him a
radial arm last ear for $50. And before somebody starts steering you
into an expensive Delta or other multi-thousand $$ overkill, I'll tell
you that I am a professional woodworker as my sole source of income for
nearly 30 yrs and have a Craftsman in my own home shop. You can make
these (see below) wheels for your saw fast and cheap so it will be
portable. Use at least 3" wheels. The wheel kit they sell has tiny
little things that don't roll or steer easily, especially if there is
any debris on the floor.
http://porchmonkey.250free.com/SawBase1.jpg
http://porchmonkey.250free.com/SawBase2.jpg
On Nov 21, 12:42=A0pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'd suggest a decent circular saw with a good blade, a couple of clamps
> and a home made saw guide as depicted in the below article:
>
> http://wayneofthewoods.com/circular-saw-cutting-guide.html
This is part of a dilemma for a beginner. This solution for ripping
straight edgers presupposes you already have a way of ripping straight
edges :-)
On Nov 21, 1:01=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Rather than getting a purpose-made track saw or spending money for the
> EZ-Smart, first you might want to try making a guide from a piece of
> plywoodhttp://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/tools/4283497.html.
> Costs under 20 bucks (you don't need any kind of fancy plywood--CDX
> sheathing works fine) and works a treat.
This is part of a dilemma for a beginner. This solution for ripping
straight edgers presupposes you already have a way of ripping straight
edges :-)
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>> Personally, I think the circular saw is the second most
>>> hazardous tool
>>> I put in my hand. The router is the first. They both scare me.
>>
>> I think the most hazardous tool is a hand held electric plane.
>>
>> I still remember the very first time I used one.
>>
>> You know how when you are hand planing a narrow edge, you curl
>> your
>> fingers round under the sole so that the tips rest aginst your
>> work and
>> act as a guide.........
>>
>
> You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid
> people?
> Same thing goes for tools.
>
> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
Ideed: 25 years ago, - Heavy angle grinder with 9" wheel, in a
hurry, taking shortcuts. (Shortcuts that I knew presented danger.)
Grinder kicked back, hitting me in the face with the wheel.
Result: Near death from blood loss, emergency surgery and over 100
sutures to repair face.
........stupid!
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> DiggerOp wrote:
>> "-MIKE-"
>>> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
>>
>> Ideed: 25 years ago, - Heavy angle grinder with 9" wheel, in a
>> hurry, taking shortcuts. (Shortcuts that I knew presented
>> danger.) Grinder kicked back, hitting me in the face with the
>> wheel.
>> Result: Near death from blood loss, emergency surgery and over
>> 100 sutures to repair face.
>>
>> ........stupid!
>>
>
> Glad you're ok.
Thanks. : )
>
> Perhaps had I wrote "foolish" in place of "stupid," there would be
> no arguments.
>
> Nonetheless, the analogy holds water.
In my case, stupid is the the appropriate word ... without doubt
: )
1/ It was middle of summer and I removed the protective face shield
I was wearing because I had to keep wiping the sweat from the
inside.
2/ The grinder wouldn't fit inside the narrow opening of the machine
housing I was working on, so I removed the side handle.
3/ My hands were also sweaty which made it difficult to hold the
grinder securely.
4/ I couldn't reach the last weld I had to grind off with the
grinding wheel guard in place, ........ so I removed it.
5/ I had done something similar before and lost control of the
grinder, seeing it kick back and fly past me, landing 20 feet away.
6/ I had other options, -- get a smaller more manageable grinder, or
use oxy/actylene.
To my way of thinking, foolish would have been using that tool which
was too big and awkward in the first place, when there were safer
alternatives. : )
However, doing something that I already new was dangerous and then
proceeding to remove all the safeguards in place to make it even
more dangerous, ....
That definitely qualifies as stupid. : )
In article
<9d16703f-c3b0-4c4a-a7f9-77ce3b9d79d8@n10g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Old Guy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Personally, I think the circular saw is the second most hazardous tool
> I put in my hand. The router is the first. They both scare me.
I think the most hazardous tool is a hand held electric plane.
I still remember the very first time I used one.
You know how when you are hand planing a narrow edge, you curl your
fingers round under the sole so that the tips rest aginst your work and
act as a guide.........
--
Stuart Winsor
Don't miss the Risc OS Christmas show
http://rickman.orpheusweb.co.uk/mug/show08/MUGshow.html
In article <[email protected]>,
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Personally, I think the circular saw is the second most hazardous tool
> >> I put in my hand. The router is the first. They both scare me.
> >
> > I think the most hazardous tool is a hand held electric plane.
> >
> > I still remember the very first time I used one.
> >
> > You know how when you are hand planing a narrow edge, you curl your
> > fingers round under the sole so that the tips rest aginst your work and
> > act as a guide.........
> >
> You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people?
> Same thing goes for tools.
> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
Fair comment.
--
Stuart Winsor
Don't miss the Risc OS Christmas show
http://rickman.orpheusweb.co.uk/mug/show08/MUGshow.html
In article <[email protected]>,
B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've had the privilege of formal training in woodworking, high voltage
> electrics, and flight.
Well I was taught woodwork at school for three years (1959-'62) but it was
all hand tools. There were only two pieces of powered equipment in the
shop then. A lathe which the teacher did some demonstrations on and an
ancient whetstone grinder - sort of thing that has about a two foot
diameter wheel, about six inches wide and rotates at about 60rpm.
My working life I spent maintaining and repairing transmitters for the
BBC, everything from 2W UHF relays to 300kW HF transmitters. All valves
(tubes) in the early days though we never got away from the need for high
voltages at high power. I was properly trained, I was authorised under the
HV switchgear rules.
All of us, I guess, did driver training and passed a test in order to get
our licences but we all make errors from time to time - not necessarily
leading to any sort of "accident" or damage to ourselves or vehicles.
I went to plane something and in a moment of thoughtless, an act of habit
I suppose, I picked up a power plane and grasped it like a hand plane.
It's a bit like the following example:
Every day you drive to work, taking the same route and turn left at a
certain junction, you've been doing it for years. Now, it's your day off
and you're going somewhere which involves driving the same route except
that you need to turn right at the junction. Your driving is fine, safe
and steady, you're concentrating on the traffic around you and suddenly
you realise you turned left at that junction after all.
--
Stuart Winsor
Don't miss the Risc OS Christmas show
http://rickman.orpheusweb.co.uk/mug/show08/MUGshow.html
On Nov 23, 10:40=A0am, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sledge Hammer wrote:
> > On Nov 21, 12:42 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>I'd suggest a decent circular saw with a good blade, a couple of clamps
> >>and a home made saw guide as depicted in the below article:
>
> >>http://wayneofthewoods.com/circular-saw-cutting-guide.html
>
> > This is part of a dilemma for a beginner. =A0This solution for ripping
> > straight edgers presupposes you already have a way of ripping straight
> > edges :-)
>
> You only need one straight edge to begin with and the factory edge of a
> piece of 1/2" or 3/4" plywood is usually pretty good.
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> [email protected]
I use a few of those saw-guides day-to-day at my shop. They're easy to
make and simple to use. One thing that the 'real' ones do, is to keep
the blade from wandering off the fence.
I have yet to make the investment. I get by just fine with a basic saw-
guide. (They also protect the material from picking up scratches from
the saw's shoe.)
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Richard wrote:
>>>> You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people?
>>>> Same thing goes for tools.
>>>> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
> >
>> Not necessarily. How about people who are tired or distracted by
>> something or just in a little too much of a hurry. Not stupid- just
>> ordinary people like us. Don't say it can't happen to me. Add "yet"
>> after statements like that. Nobody plans to have an accident.
>
> Yes and no...
>
> I think part of it comes from training and development of concentration.
>
> I totally understand what you mean on one level. Somebody untrained and
> undisciplined does "one quick cut" under any combination of factors and
> amputates something. Is it a sad coincidence? Or is it stupidity?
>
> I've had the privilege of formal training in woodworking, high voltage
> electrics, and flight. What they all have in common, is the goal of the
> student understanding what frame of mind they should be in to safely
> complete the activity and continuing to use the same level of care after
> training is completed. The golden goal is for the student to
> automatically recognize a bad human or mechanical factor, while there is
> still time to stop, long after training is complete.
>
> The key is when you are tired, distracted, or unsure of the correct method
> to follow, yet you choose to continue into a situation. Some might hold
> that out as stupidity. I might also hold out someone who blindly uses a
> tool capable of quickly cutting tough materials, without so much as
> reading the manual or instructions, as stupid.
>
> In my day job, I've known people who were killed under those
> circumstances, even though they had regular reminders and formal training
> of why we follow safety procedures. They even had enough experience to
> have personally had occasions where the properly followed safety
> procedures uncovered a deadly condition in advance, so they were unhurt at
> the time.
>
> The "not stupid" comes in when a failure that could not be reasonably
> expected, or found in advance with a reasonable inspection, causes things
> to go awry.
>
> The gray area comes in with the self-taught nature of woodworking. But
> hey, that's where warning labels and user manual sidebars come from.
>
> Sorry for the long post, but this is something I take a big interest in...
I'm coming in way late in the thread but 2 stories to relate...
1) Getting ready for a festival where a couple friends were setting up a
table, I was making a table top much too quickly (a "last minute" type
deal). With something as simple as a utility knife... The plan was to
re-top an existing table with a layer of quarter inch of hardboard. Instead
of going through the motions to get a real saw out and making the cut, I
decided to hold a 1 by on it as a straight edge and cut it with the utility
knife. Well, duh! The knife slipped and I have a scar on my left index
finger from an eighth inch below the nail to the second knuckle.
2) Winter. Unheated shop, about 30F. 1 pass in the router table to make.
(side note, cheap Skil (I think) router, early in my days of power tools, if
I had been using hand tools, this wouldn't have happened) I set the bit
height and did a test pass. Not quite high enough. I loosened the lock and
started tapping the tool to get it up just a hair... using my left hand to
feel the height in relation to the fence and my right hand to tap. I don't
even need to tell the rest, do I? The tapping hand hit the switch and the
pinky and ring finger of my left hand were in the blade. Another pair of
scars I'll wear forever. Luckily, they were just resting loosely so they
basically flopped out of the way. I got the machine off and looked at the
red splatter and then my hand (another side note, I have played guitar since
I was 13). It was the closest I have ever come to fainting. I had to go in
the house, remove my insulated overalls and lay down on the floor with my
feet elevated on a chair. Oh, to top it all off, I was completely alone...
no one to call for help I had really needed it. They healed fine but it
took about 5 weeks before I could use them anywhere near normally and about
10 weeks before I could play my guitar with all the fingers on my left hand.
Hmmmm.... why *am* I relating this? Hopefully someone out there will learn
from my mistakes, I guess. And saying "crap happens" I guess. Were these
things stupid? I dunno... maybe. I'd like to chalk them up to
inexperience. What would have been really stupid would be if I hadn't
learned from them. Both of these were done as a result of trying to rush
things and not following basic safety procedures. Hopefully, I'm better at
assessing things like that.
Ed
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ed Edelenbos wrote:
>> 1) With something as simple as a utility knife... 2) 1 pass in the
>> router table to make. ...if I had been using hand tools, this wouldn't
>> have happened)
>
> Isn't a utility knife a hand tool? :-p
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
Hmmm... maybe I *haven't* learned to think before I do. (grin)
Ed
J. Clarke wrote:
>
> Personal experience--continuing a motorcycle trip onto a bad and very
> isolated road late in the day when a couple of events earlier in the
> day should have told me that my judgment was already impaired).
>
> Don't dismiss it as stupidity or foolishness, learn the signs and
> practice watching for them.
Exactly.
A theme repeated over and over, in pilot training, motorcycle advanced
training, CDL training, heavy tools, high voltage, hazmat, heavy
industrial... and every other safety related class I've ever seen.
One has to become mindful of their own fatigue.
The song remains the same, regardless of what specific task it's applied
to...
Hi,
Something I used a lot when I was very limited in space and tools was
a hand jigsaw. Scroll saw? Not sure of the proper name.
Anyhow with a supply of fresh blades, it does a good job of making
first cuts, both rip and cross cut and in plywood. Sawhorses with
some auxiliary supports keep the work off the ground.
They ain't accurate. You won't get dead straight rips, or even
vertical cuts, but you will get your pieces cut out to managable
size. You can then use a small bench saw, or band saw, or even a good
hand saw to get your finished cuts. The size of pieces you need will
control what you use.
Personally, I think the circular saw is the second most hazardous tool
I put in my hand. The router is the first. They both scare me.
Old Guy
On Nov 21, 11:03=A0am, Sledge Hammer <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm pretty new and after most of the first semester at the local
> community, I'm finally ready to buy some of my own tools (starting
> from nothing). =A0Given the constraints of money and space, I'm going to
> be working outside and need a portable substitute for a tablesaw to do
> rip cuts on lumber and sheet products. =A0I'm pretty new and get freaked
> out by exposed spinning blades (including the Sawstop they use in
> class), so a contractor's saw is not my favorite option for now.
>
> DeWalt, Festool, and Eurekazone (which works with a third party
> circular saw) all have similar-looking systems. =A0Anyone have
> experience with them? Would a heavy worktable and a couple of
> sawhorses be adequate support for doing longer rip cuts?
>
> Suggestions on substitute devices are also welcome. =A0My main interest
> at this point, given my current skills and budget, is in having tools
> to do craft-type furniture--benches, tables, chairs, smaller cabinet
> type work.
Sledge Hammer wrote:
> I'm pretty new and after most of the first semester at the local
> community, I'm finally ready to buy some of my own tools (starting
> from nothing). Given the constraints of money and space, I'm going to
> be working outside and need a portable substitute for a tablesaw to do
> rip cuts on lumber and sheet products. I'm pretty new and get freaked
> out by exposed spinning blades (including the Sawstop they use in
> class), so a contractor's saw is not my favorite option for now.
>
> DeWalt, Festool, and Eurekazone (which works with a third party
> circular saw) all have similar-looking systems. Anyone have
> experience with them? Would a heavy worktable and a couple of
> sawhorses be adequate support for doing longer rip cuts?
>
> Suggestions on substitute devices are also welcome. My main interest
> at this point, given my current skills and budget, is in having tools
> to do craft-type furniture--benches, tables, chairs, smaller cabinet
> type work.
I'd suggest a decent circular saw with a good blade, a couple of clamps
and a home made saw guide as depicted in the below article:
http://wayneofthewoods.com/circular-saw-cutting-guide.html
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
Sledge Hammer wrote:
> On Nov 21, 12:42 pm, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I'd suggest a decent circular saw with a good blade, a couple of clamps
>>and a home made saw guide as depicted in the below article:
>>
>>http://wayneofthewoods.com/circular-saw-cutting-guide.html
>
>
> This is part of a dilemma for a beginner. This solution for ripping
> straight edgers presupposes you already have a way of ripping straight
> edges :-)
You only need one straight edge to begin with and the factory edge of a
piece of 1/2" or 3/4" plywood is usually pretty good.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
On Nov 21, 3:15=A0pm, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
> There isn't a woodworking tool around that hasn't caused serious injury t=
o
> someone.
I gather! =A0I'm managed to send myself to the ER without shop tools--
I'm an expert in making tournequets from my experiences with a box
cutter and a stick blender.
On Nov 21, 3:15=A0pm, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:
> There isn't a woodworking tool around that hasn't caused serious injury t=
o
> someone.
I gather! I'm managed to send myself to the ER without shop tools--
I'm an expert in making tournequets from my experiences with a box
cutter and a stick blender.
> A good table saw will make most of what you want to do. =A0A good table s=
aw
> may outlast you.
Yeah, I get that. Someday....
On Nov 21, 6:48=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I have the Festool, and I really like it.
> > Tom
>
> That looks very impressive, as does most of the Festool line.
>
> The thing I can afford from Festool is their little plastic block
> sander.... and it's overpriced, too. =A0 :-)
>
I own a few Festool sanders and the 1/4 sheet palm sander isn't one of
them. Overpriced indeed.
Now this one is a great sander for a good price:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002EVDOG
I absolutely love that little thing and with the dust collector
adaptor, almost perfectly dustfree with even a basic shopvac.
Just because it is Festool, doesn't make it an automatic 'best deal'.
That said, Festool doesn't make any bad tools. They're all excellent,
just in some categories, overpriced.
I would, for instance, never consider their jigsaws or routers either
and for the same reason. Great tools, stupid money. I will continue
recommending their ROSanders, at almost any price.
Oh.... and maybe that wee mitresaw thingy they make...sweeeeet,
Virtually dust free, quiet, small footprint...
I think any track saw system or a jig like the one shown by Nova are
an OK starting point. Circular saws are a lot harder to get good cuts
so a good sharp and appropriate blade is a must. Plywood use a fairly
fine blade but if you can find something with some extrat gullets
(missing teeth) it works better to clear the chips. Hardwood probably
works better with a combo blade or true ripping blade.
For the table, look for some literature on sacrificial setups. You can
make some saw horses with an extra 2 x 4 on top to take the cutting or
some folks use a big piece of styrafoam. Search Plywood Cutting Table
on Google for lots of ideas. Solid stock will be a very different
animal. I would not look forward to ripping an 8" wide board down to
4" with a circular saw. I would much rather do it on a $100 Home Depot
table top table saw... personally.
On Nov 21, 9:03=A0am, Sledge Hammer <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm pretty new and after most of the first semester at the local
> community, I'm finally ready to buy some of my own tools (starting
> from nothing). =A0Given the constraints of money and space, I'm going to
> be working outside and need a portable substitute for a tablesaw to do
> rip cuts on lumber and sheet products. =A0I'm pretty new and get freaked
> out by exposed spinning blades (including the Sawstop they use in
> class), so a contractor's saw is not my favorite option for now.
>
> DeWalt, Festool, and Eurekazone (which works with a third party
> circular saw) all have similar-looking systems. =A0Anyone have
> experience with them? Would a heavy worktable and a couple of
> sawhorses be adequate support for doing longer rip cuts?
>
> Suggestions on substitute devices are also welcome. =A0My main interest
> at this point, given my current skills and budget, is in having tools
> to do craft-type furniture--benches, tables, chairs, smaller cabinet
> type work.
Sledge Hammer wrote:
> I'm pretty new and after most of the first semester at the local
> community, I'm finally ready to buy some of my own tools (starting
> from nothing). Given the constraints of money and space, I'm going
> to
> be working outside and need a portable substitute for a tablesaw to
> do
> rip cuts on lumber and sheet products. I'm pretty new and get
> freaked
> out by exposed spinning blades (including the Sawstop they use in
> class), so a contractor's saw is not my favorite option for now.
>
> DeWalt, Festool, and Eurekazone (which works with a third party
> circular saw) all have similar-looking systems. Anyone have
> experience with them? Would a heavy worktable and a couple of
> sawhorses be adequate support for doing longer rip cuts?
>
> Suggestions on substitute devices are also welcome. My main
> interest
> at this point, given my current skills and budget, is in having
> tools
> to do craft-type furniture--benches, tables, chairs, smaller cabinet
> type work.
If you're doing cabinetry eventually you're going to need a table saw,
but even when you have one a track saw will be very useful for dealing
with sheet goods--cutting a sheet of 3/4" MDF or to approximate size
first is a lot easier than manhandling the whole monster onto your
table saw.
Rather than getting a purpose-made track saw or spending money for the
EZ-Smart, first you might want to try making a guide from a piece of
plywood
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/tools/4283497.html.
Costs under 20 bucks (you don't need any kind of fancy plywood--CDX
sheathing works fine) and works a treat.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
I have the Festool, and I really like it. You can actually make your final
finish cuts with the saw and its track, just as accurately as you can
measure and mark the wood. It's worlds better than a regular circular saw
because the arbor doesn't have any runout to speak of, so the cuts are
smooth and clean.
The blade is completely enclosed until you push it down into the wood, and
it has a good depth stop, so you're not exposing any spinning blades when
you use it.
I use a couple of sawhorses with a sacrificial piece of OSB on top as a
rough bench. Then I just put my plywood or MDF right on the OSB and set the
saw's depth stop so that it extends no more than an eighth of an inch or so
into the OSB. Works like a charm.
Tom
"Sledge Hammer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:dd59e61b-e75c-4270-9594-8d408ad6ad1c@l14g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> I'm pretty new and after most of the first semester at the local
> community, I'm finally ready to buy some of my own tools (starting
> from nothing). Given the constraints of money and space, I'm going to
> be working outside and need a portable substitute for a tablesaw to do
> rip cuts on lumber and sheet products. I'm pretty new and get freaked
> out by exposed spinning blades (including the Sawstop they use in
> class), so a contractor's saw is not my favorite option for now.
>
> DeWalt, Festool, and Eurekazone (which works with a third party
> circular saw) all have similar-looking systems. Anyone have
> experience with them? Would a heavy worktable and a couple of
> sawhorses be adequate support for doing longer rip cuts?
>
> Suggestions on substitute devices are also welcome. My main interest
> at this point, given my current skills and budget, is in having tools
> to do craft-type furniture--benches, tables, chairs, smaller cabinet
> type work.
> I have the Festool, and I really like it.
> Tom
>
That looks very impressive, as does most of the Festool line.
The thing I can afford from Festool is their little plastic block
sander.... and it's overpriced, too. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
>> Personally, I think the circular saw is the second most hazardous tool
>> I put in my hand. The router is the first. They both scare me.
>
> I think the most hazardous tool is a hand held electric plane.
>
> I still remember the very first time I used one.
>
> You know how when you are hand planing a narrow edge, you curl your
> fingers round under the sole so that the tips rest aginst your work and
> act as a guide.........
>
You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people?
Same thing goes for tools.
There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Richard wrote:
>>> You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people?
>>> Same thing goes for tools.
>>> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
> Not necessarily. How about people who are tired or distracted by
> something or just in a little too much of a hurry. Not stupid- just
> ordinary people like us. Don't say it can't happen to me. Add "yet"
> after statements like that. Nobody plans to have an accident.
>
> Richard
Stupid people work while tired or distracted.
Stupid people work take short cuts when in a hurry.
It has happened. Kickback from a table saw.
I was being stupid.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> Richard wrote:
>>>> You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid
>>>> people? Same thing goes for tools.
>>>> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
>> Not necessarily. How about people who are tired or distracted by
>> something or just in a little too much of a hurry. Not stupid-
>> just
>> ordinary people like us. Don't say it can't happen to me. Add
>> "yet"
>> after statements like that. Nobody plans to have an accident.
>>
>> Richard
>
> Stupid people work while tired or distracted.
Fatigue impairs judgment. Stupidity has nothing to do with it.
> Stupid people work take short cuts when in a hurry.
>
> It has happened. Kickback from a table saw.
> I was being stupid.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Puckdropper wrote:
> There are dangerous tools out there.
>
You're correct. All of them.
> For one example, take a dremel tool
> with cut off disk. If you get the disk just a little out of alignment, the
> disk will break and be sent flying all over the place.
>
That can be said, given different specifics, with any tool.
> The easiest way to make it safer is to use a thicker disk, but they
> sometimes break and disintegrate too.
>
Here's the easiest way to make a hammer safer.
http://www.pad-up.com/picture.asp?PictureID=87317
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Ed Edelenbos wrote:
> 1) With something as simple as a utility knife...
>
> 2) 1 pass in the router table to make.
> ...if I had been using hand tools, this wouldn't have happened)
Isn't a utility knife a hand tool? :-p
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
DiggerOp wrote:
> "-MIKE-"
>> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
>
> Ideed: 25 years ago, - Heavy angle grinder with 9" wheel, in a
> hurry, taking shortcuts. (Shortcuts that I knew presented danger.)
> Grinder kicked back, hitting me in the face with the wheel.
> Result: Near death from blood loss, emergency surgery and over 100
> sutures to repair face.
>
> ........stupid!
>
Glad you're ok.
Perhaps had I wrote "foolish" in place of "stupid," there would be no
arguments.
Nonetheless, the analogy holds water.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
>> Stupid people work while tired or distracted.
>
> Fatigue impairs judgment. Stupidity has nothing to do with it.
>
Semantics. You guys crack me up.
Perhaps had I wrote "foolish" in place of "stupid," there would be no
arguments.
Foolish people work with power tools while fatigued.
If in fact fatigue impairs judgment.
I'm guessing that's why the military or firefighters have drills after
drills after drills after drills with certain procedures. It becomes
such a habit, so ingrained in them, that fatigue doesn't come into play.
Same thing with safety procedures. If you're anal about it from the
beginning, and continue with them, to the point that other guys make fun
of you, then you just do those procedures without a second thought, even
when those other guys are snickering and pointing at you with their
stubby, two-knuckled fingers.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
>>> Stupid people work while tired or distracted.
>>
>> Fatigue impairs judgment. Stupidity has nothing to do with it.
>>
>
> Semantics. You guys crack me up.
Actually not. I've done things when I was tired that I knew better
than to do when I was not. One of the things the Iron Butt
Association makes a big deal about is how to recognize that you are
fatigued to the point of having impaired judgment. Most people don't
know the signs and don't know to watch for them, which is ignorance,
not stupidity.
> Perhaps had I wrote "foolish" in place of "stupid," there would be
> no
> arguments.
>
> Foolish people work with power tools while fatigued.
Fatigued people don't know that they're fatigued. It sneaks up on
you.
> If in fact fatigue impairs judgment.
It does.
http://www.dot.gov.nt.ca/_live/pages/wpPages/FatigueImpairment.aspx
http://www.ironbutt.com/tech/aow.cfm?AOWID=12
http://www.ibc.ca/en/Car_Insurance/Driver_Fatigue/
http://www.apsf.org/resource_center/newsletter/2005/spring/01fatigue.htm
A couple of fatigue in the workplace handbooks from the Australian
government (big downloads from a slow site--be patient)
http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/resources/file/eb87fc08b727473/vwa_fatigue_handbook.pdf
http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/wps/wcm/resources/file/ebd21d435f1965f/fatigue_management_forestry.pdf
Personal experience--continuing a motorcycle trip onto a bad and very
isolated road late in the day when a couple of events earlier in the
day should have told me that my judgment was already impaired).
Don't dismiss it as stupidity or foolishness, learn the signs and
practice watching for them.
> I'm guessing that's why the military or firefighters have drills
> after
> drills after drills after drills with certain procedures. It becomes
> such a habit, so ingrained in them, that fatigue doesn't come into
> play.
That's part of it, but the main part is that under stress people tend
to do whatever they're practiced doing.
>
> Same thing with safety procedures. If you're anal about it from the
> beginning, and continue with them, to the point that other guys make
> fun of you, then you just do those procedures without a second
> thought, even when those other guys are snickering and pointing at
> you with their stubby, two-knuckled fingers.
Very true.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
-MIKE- wrote:
...
> If in fact fatigue impairs judgment.
> I'm guessing that's why the military or firefighters have drills after
> drills after drills after drills with certain procedures. It becomes
> such a habit, so ingrained in them, that fatigue doesn't come into play.
...
There is voluminous research that fatigue _does_ impair judgment,
reaction time, etc., etc., etc., ...
Even trained people make mistakes and more so when tired.
--
B A R R Y wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Nov 21, 1:01 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Rather than getting a purpose-made track saw or spending money for
>>> the EZ-Smart, first you might want to try making a guide from a
>>> piece of
>>> plywoodhttp://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/tools/4283497.html.
>>> Costs under 20 bucks (you don't need any kind of fancy
>>> plywood--CDX
>>> sheathing works fine) and works a treat.
>>
>> This is part of a dilemma for a beginner. This solution for
>> ripping
>> straight edgers presupposes you already have a way of ripping
>> straight edges :-)
>
> Not really, which is what Mr. J. Clarke is trying to point out.
>
> The factory edge of an undamaged sheet of plywood is straight enough
> to make a guide. The base of the saw will bridge minor dents and
> imperfections. The guide rail really doesn't need to perfectly
> smooth.
Next time I make one maybe I should shoot video for the people for
whom drawing them a picture is not enough.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
DiggerOp wrote:
>
> Ideed: 25 years ago, - Heavy angle grinder with 9" wheel, in a
> hurry, taking shortcuts. (Shortcuts that I knew presented danger.)
> Grinder kicked back, hitting me in the face with the wheel.
> Result: Near death from blood loss, emergency surgery and over 100
> sutures to repair face.
>
> ........stupid!
What a coincidence -- the same thing happened to me about 25 years
ago. I was using an angle-iron grinder to cut through some angle-
iron and it kicked back and went through my chin (but fortunantly
stopped short of the bone). I've been a little more careful with
tools every since (esp grinders).
Lance
On Sun, 23 Nov 2008 19:25:01 -0500, B A R R Y <[email protected]>
wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Nov 21, 1:01 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Rather than getting a purpose-made track saw or spending money for the
>>> EZ-Smart, first you might want to try making a guide from a piece of
>>> plywoodhttp://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/tools/4283497.html.
>>> Costs under 20 bucks (you don't need any kind of fancy plywood--CDX
>>> sheathing works fine) and works a treat.
>>
>> This is part of a dilemma for a beginner. This solution for ripping
>> straight edgers presupposes you already have a way of ripping straight
>> edges :-)
>
>Not really, which is what Mr. J. Clarke is trying to point out.
>
>The factory edge of an undamaged sheet of plywood is straight enough to
>make a guide. The base of the saw will bridge minor dents and
>imperfections. The guide rail really doesn't need to perfectly smooth.
...this is true and works well. I use an aluminum straightedge (a
rule carried by any good tool source works good here) attached to a
slice of 3/8" baltic birch, for my guide, which travels with me to
jobs...it's set up for my 18v Makita 6" and gets a lot of work. They
*do* tend to get worn, so leave enough room to move your straightedge
over slightly so you can cut another parallel edge on occasion (this
extra also serves as a clamping surface away from the saw motor). Once
you've established that you can achieve a straight cut, the ultimate
flaw is in your marking and clamping...the devil is in the variables
and these two are the keys to a good, parallel, cut. Clamping should
be easily achieved by a quick check for tightness before you hack
away...marking is another matter. I've gotten *close* to error-free
here by using my utility knife to score tiny kerfs to lay the
straightedge to...all that said, I'm at my table saw whenever
possible!
cg
Puckdropper wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:gg9lm8$odj$1
> @nntp.motzarella.org:
>
>> You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people?
>> Same thing goes for tools.
>>
>> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
>
> There are dangerous tools out there. For one example, take a dremel tool
> with cut off disk. If you get the disk just a little out of alignment, the
> disk will break and be sent flying all over the place.
>
> The easiest way to make it safer is to use a thicker disk, but they
> sometimes break and disintegrate too.
>
> Puckdropper
When I was in high school a friend of mine and I used to have our own
little automotive painting business. Of course, all the workspace and
tools were borrowed from our fathers, and I'll never forget one HEAVY
and nasty old metal bodied hand-held grinder owned by my friend's
father. We had a big wire brush installed on that thing for rust
removal (safety guard? What's that?), and it was turned on and off with
a TOGGLE switch. One day I was preparing to use it, so I hauled it out
and plopped it down in the middle of the driveway, then proceeded to
plug it in. Of course, then damn toggle switch was in the ON position,
and I can tell you there's nothing quite so frightening as a nasty
screaming wire brush monster hopping around the driveway trying to take
a bite out of your shin bones! I don't know how I managed to escape
injury or to regain control of the power cord and yank the connector
apart, but I can tell you I had a racing heart and a fair amount of shit
running down my legs!
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Richard wrote:
>>> You how they say, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people?
>>> Same thing goes for tools.
>>> There are no dangerous tools, just stupid people. :-)
>
> Not necessarily. How about people who are tired or distracted by
> something or just in a little too much of a hurry. Not stupid- just
> ordinary people like us. Don't say it can't happen to me. Add "yet"
> after statements like that. Nobody plans to have an accident.
Yes and no...
I think part of it comes from training and development of concentration.
I totally understand what you mean on one level. Somebody untrained
and undisciplined does "one quick cut" under any combination of factors
and amputates something. Is it a sad coincidence? Or is it stupidity?
I've had the privilege of formal training in woodworking, high voltage
electrics, and flight. What they all have in common, is the goal of the
student understanding what frame of mind they should be in to safely
complete the activity and continuing to use the same level of care after
training is completed. The golden goal is for the student to
automatically recognize a bad human or mechanical factor, while there is
still time to stop, long after training is complete.
The key is when you are tired, distracted, or unsure of the correct
method to follow, yet you choose to continue into a situation. Some
might hold that out as stupidity. I might also hold out someone who
blindly uses a tool capable of quickly cutting tough materials, without
so much as reading the manual or instructions, as stupid.
In my day job, I've known people who were killed under those
circumstances, even though they had regular reminders and formal
training of why we follow safety procedures. They even had enough
experience to have personally had occasions where the properly followed
safety procedures uncovered a deadly condition in advance, so they were
unhurt at the time.
The "not stupid" comes in when a failure that could not be reasonably
expected, or found in advance with a reasonable inspection, causes
things to go awry.
The gray area comes in with the self-taught nature of woodworking. But
hey, that's where warning labels and user manual sidebars come from.
Sorry for the long post, but this is something I take a big interest in...
Nova wrote:
>
> I'd suggest a decent circular saw with a good blade, a couple of clamps
> and a home made saw guide as depicted in the below article:
>
> http://wayneofthewoods.com/circular-saw-cutting-guide.html
>
I still use the exact same guide to break down full sheets before trying
to rip them. A great marital peace maker, as I don't need the
machine-petrified wife to help cut full sheets.
For extra credit, make the base wide enough to guide a router with 1/2"
bit on the other side. Side one guides the saw, side two provides a
perfect edge with two good sides.
"Sledge Hammer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:dd59e61b-e75c-4270-9594-8d408ad6ad1c@l14g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> I'm pretty new and after most of the first semester at the local
> community, I'm finally ready to buy some of my own tools (starting
> from nothing). Given the constraints of money and space, I'm going to
> be working outside and need a portable substitute for a tablesaw to do
> rip cuts on lumber and sheet products. I'm pretty new and get freaked
> out by exposed spinning blades (including the Sawstop they use in
> class), so a contractor's saw is not my favorite option for now.
>
> DeWalt, Festool, and Eurekazone (which works with a third party
> circular saw) all have similar-looking systems. Anyone have
> experience with them? Would a heavy worktable and a couple of
> sawhorses be adequate support for doing longer rip cuts?
>
> Suggestions on substitute devices are also welcome. My main interest
> at this point, given my current skills and budget, is in having tools
> to do craft-type furniture--benches, tables, chairs, smaller cabinet
> type work.
There isn't a woodworking tool around that hasn't caused serious injury to
someone.
I try to be sure that I review the setup before turning on any piece of
machinery.
However, a table saw is not my favorite tool for cutting long stock
lengthwise.
When I cut 4x8 plywood to width, I use a circular saw against a long guide.
When I cut long boards to width, I use adjustable supports to keep the board
level.
A good table saw will make most of what you want to do. A good table saw
may outlast you.
I also use a jig saw, routers, drills, a drill press, and assorted sanders.
One of these days, I will add a joiner and a planer.
Jim
[email protected] wrote:
> On Nov 21, 1:01 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Rather than getting a purpose-made track saw or spending money for the
>> EZ-Smart, first you might want to try making a guide from a piece of
>> plywoodhttp://www.popularmechanics.com/home_journal/tools/4283497.html.
>> Costs under 20 bucks (you don't need any kind of fancy plywood--CDX
>> sheathing works fine) and works a treat.
>
> This is part of a dilemma for a beginner. This solution for ripping
> straight edgers presupposes you already have a way of ripping straight
> edges :-)
Not really, which is what Mr. J. Clarke is trying to point out.
The factory edge of an undamaged sheet of plywood is straight enough to
make a guide. The base of the saw will bridge minor dents and
imperfections. The guide rail really doesn't need to perfectly smooth.