On Jul 21, 4:34=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 21, 6:53=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> > >> WW wrote:
> > >>> As I mentioned in earlier post about moistening wood before gluing.=
All
> > >>> of you were correct in replies. I took the items to a friend to
> > >>> thickness sand. He dropped one and it fell apart at the glue joints=
. So
> > >>> much for my bright idea. I learn a lot from this group, thanks. War=
ren
>
> > > I'm not sure where you came up with the idea in the first place. Mayb=
e
> > > it was planted in your head by hearing a correct idea and it got garb=
led
> > > up in the memory banks, as often happens to me.
>
> > > In any case, I could see someone offering the advise to wet the gluin=
g
> > > surfaces of the wood, then "let dry" before applying glue. This would
> > > act to open up the pores a bit and possibly help the wood soak up the
> > > glue.
>
> > > I'm not saying it's a correct theory or practice... just saying I cou=
ld
> > > believe someone might offer that advice.
>
> > Yeah the opening the pores up thing IMHO does not hold water either. =
=A0You
> > get a better bond on wood that is shiney smooth and no open grain. =A0T=
ake
> > maple for example. =A0I don't believe that the typical wood glue needs =
a
> > "tooth" to bond well. =A0Typically the more glue there is in a joint, i=
n
> > excess, the more likely it is to fail. =A0There is really no such thing=
as
> > glue starvation in a joint unless there is not enough glue to cover the
> > surfaves in the first place. =A0Squeezing the heck out of a joint with =
clamps
> > is not a problem providing there is glue on all surfaces of the joint, =
and
> > those surfaces touch each outher, regardless of how thin the lglue line=
is.
>
> Would that include case-hardened maple direct from a jointer? Because
> at a door manufacturing company that I frequent, they scuff and
> moisten the edges before making the panels for the raised panels. They
> do let them dry throughly before gluing. They want tooth.
But do they use PVA or some other kind of glue that benefits from
tooth?
Luigi
On Jul 21, 8:17=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 21, 11:01=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Robatoy" wrote:
> > > Resorcinol of course. *S*
>
> > And don't forget epoxy.
>
> > Lew
>
> You won't LET me forget epoxy. <G>
Lew won't let ANYONE forget epoxy, ever! :-)
Luigi
On Jul 21, 11:01=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote:
> > Resorcinol of course. *S*
>
> And don't forget epoxy.
>
> Lew
You won't LET me forget epoxy. <G>
On Jul 21, 8:24=A0pm, Luigi Zanasi <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 21, 4:34=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 21, 6:53=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > >news:[email protected]...
>
> > > >> WW wrote:
> > > >>> As I mentioned in earlier post about moistening wood before gluin=
g. All
> > > >>> of you were correct in replies. I took the items to a friend to
> > > >>> thickness sand. He dropped one and it fell apart at the glue join=
ts. So
> > > >>> much for my bright idea. I learn a lot from this group, thanks. W=
arren
>
> > > > I'm not sure where you came up with the idea in the first place. Ma=
ybe
> > > > it was planted in your head by hearing a correct idea and it got ga=
rbled
> > > > up in the memory banks, as often happens to me.
>
> > > > In any case, I could see someone offering the advise to wet the glu=
ing
> > > > surfaces of the wood, then "let dry" before applying glue. This wou=
ld
> > > > act to open up the pores a bit and possibly help the wood soak up t=
he
> > > > glue.
>
> > > > I'm not saying it's a correct theory or practice... just saying I c=
ould
> > > > believe someone might offer that advice.
>
> > > Yeah the opening the pores up thing IMHO does not hold water either. =
=A0You
> > > get a better bond on wood that is shiney smooth and no open grain. =
=A0Take
> > > maple for example. =A0I don't believe that the typical wood glue need=
s a
> > > "tooth" to bond well. =A0Typically the more glue there is in a joint,=
in
> > > excess, the more likely it is to fail. =A0There is really no such thi=
ng as
> > > glue starvation in a joint unless there is not enough glue to cover t=
he
> > > surfaves in the first place. =A0Squeezing the heck out of a joint wit=
h clamps
> > > is not a problem providing there is glue on all surfaces of the joint=
, and
> > > those surfaces touch each outher, regardless of how thin the lglue li=
ne is.
>
> > Would that include case-hardened maple direct from a jointer? Because
> > at a door manufacturing company that I frequent, they scuff and
> > moisten the edges before making the panels for the raised panels. They
> > do let them dry throughly before gluing. They want tooth.
>
> But do they use PVA or some other kind of glue that benefits from
> tooth?
>
> Luigi
Resorcinol of course. *S*
On Jul 21, 6:53=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> >> WW wrote:
> >>> As I mentioned in earlier post about moistening wood before gluing. A=
ll
> >>> of you were correct in replies. I took the items to a friend to
> >>> thickness sand. He dropped one and it fell apart at the glue joints. =
So
> >>> much for my bright idea. I learn a lot from this group, thanks. Warre=
n
>
> > I'm not sure where you came up with the idea in the first place. Maybe
> > it was planted in your head by hearing a correct idea and it got garble=
d
> > up in the memory banks, as often happens to me.
>
> > In any case, I could see someone offering the advise to wet the gluing
> > surfaces of the wood, then "let dry" before applying glue. This would
> > act to open up the pores a bit and possibly help the wood soak up the
> > glue.
>
> > I'm not saying it's a correct theory or practice... just saying I could
> > believe someone might offer that advice.
>
> Yeah the opening the pores up thing IMHO does not hold water either. =A0Y=
ou
> get a better bond on wood that is shiney smooth and no open grain. =A0Tak=
e
> maple for example. =A0I don't believe that the typical wood glue needs a
> "tooth" to bond well. =A0Typically the more glue there is in a joint, in
> excess, the more likely it is to fail. =A0There is really no such thing a=
s
> glue starvation in a joint unless there is not enough glue to cover the
> surfaves in the first place. =A0Squeezing the heck out of a joint with cl=
amps
> is not a problem providing there is glue on all surfaces of the joint, an=
d
> those surfaces touch each outher, regardless of how thin the lglue line i=
s.
Would that include case-hardened maple direct from a jointer? Because
at a door manufacturing company that I frequent, they scuff and
moisten the edges before making the panels for the raised panels. They
do let them dry throughly before gluing. They want tooth.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jul 21, 6:53 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
Would that include case-hardened maple direct from a jointer? Because
at a door manufacturing company that I frequent, they scuff and
moisten the edges before making the panels for the raised panels. They
do let them dry throughly before gluing. They want tooth.
Lets just say that I have never had a failure and my maple surfaces are
often burnished.
"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> scritch wrote:
>
>
> When I first started WWing, I clamped things as tight as I could. No
> failures. Later, I read that was wrong, and you shouldn't over clamp. I
> tried less clamping pressure and you guessed it, no failures. Now, they
> seem to want more pressure... Personally, I quit worrying about it (never
> really worried much anyway) and clamp until no gaps, and maybe a tad
> more... somewhere between 10 psi and 1,0000 psi. Not sure, I don't
> measure it:-)
>
> For me, the most important issue for ME to worry about is squeeze out. I
> don't want much (any), and I don't want a dry joint. If you know what
> you are doing, you get little squeeze out (unlike Norm and Scott) and no
> dry joints. It just ain't that hard. Well, it might be hard if you are
> on TV, not sure about that...
Clamping tighter helps on marginally prepaired joints, those that may not
close when simply slid up next to each other and helps to prevent the joint
from slipping if you move the assembly around shortly after clamping.
Masking makes a great clamp if the surfaces are properly prepaired.
Ths only problem I have witnessed from clamping too tightly is indentations
where the clamping surfaces come in contact with the wood.
WW wrote:
> As I mentioned in earlier post about moistening wood before gluing. All of
> you were correct in replies. I took the items to a friend to thickness sand.
> He dropped one and it fell apart at the glue joints. So much for my bright
> idea. I learn a lot from this group, thanks. Warren
>
>
I'm the same way, Warren. I've learned more little snippets from reading
this group than I care to count. I suck up to the gods of the wreck from
time to time, and this seems as good a time as any to thank everyone
here for steering me, either consciously or buried in a post about
something else, in a better direction than I might have gone on my own.
I'm not going to get into names, but there are a few here who
consistently and patiently explain things on a text-only medium that has
made my forays into the shop either more efficient, more fun or more safe.
For the most part, it's the pros or semi-pros who have the wealth of
experience to put things in a more realistic perspective. But there are
times when there's someone with as little experience as me who just
seems to have the right answer.
And for all of that, I'm grateful that I found this group.
And BTW Warren. It's sure nice to see someone say that they made a
mistake and own up to it.
Tanus
> WW wrote:
>> As I mentioned in earlier post about moistening wood before gluing.
>> All of you were correct in replies. I took the items to a friend to
>> thickness sand. He dropped one and it fell apart at the glue joints.
>> So much for my bright idea. I learn a lot from this group, thanks. Warren
>>
>
I'm not sure where you came up with the idea in the first place. Maybe
it was planted in your head by hearing a correct idea and it got garbled
up in the memory banks, as often happens to me.
In any case, I could see someone offering the advise to wet the gluing
surfaces of the wood, then "let dry" before applying glue. This would
act to open up the pores a bit and possibly help the wood soak up the glue.
I'm not saying it's a correct theory or practice... just saying I could
believe someone might offer that advice.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> WW wrote:
>>> As I mentioned in earlier post about moistening wood before gluing. All
>>> of you were correct in replies. I took the items to a friend to
>>> thickness sand. He dropped one and it fell apart at the glue joints. So
>>> much for my bright idea. I learn a lot from this group, thanks. Warren
>>>
>>
>
> I'm not sure where you came up with the idea in the first place. Maybe
> it was planted in your head by hearing a correct idea and it got garbled
> up in the memory banks, as often happens to me.
>
> In any case, I could see someone offering the advise to wet the gluing
> surfaces of the wood, then "let dry" before applying glue. This would
> act to open up the pores a bit and possibly help the wood soak up the
> glue.
>
> I'm not saying it's a correct theory or practice... just saying I could
> believe someone might offer that advice.
Joint and surface prep are much more important to strength than the minimal
diluting that surface moisture might have. Proper clamping and sufficient
cure time also makes a difference. (But, to forestall further angst and
squawking, it's certainly possible that the surface moisture interfered with
the glue where it counts most, at the wood surface and just slightly below.
I would still suspect inadequate surface prep and clamping first before
buying in so easily on not tampering with the magic voodoo that comes in the
glue bottle.)
Robatoy wrote:
> On Jul 21, 11:01 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Robatoy" wrote:
>>> Resorcinol of course. *S*
>> And don't forget epoxy.
>>
>> Lew
>
> You won't LET me forget epoxy. <G>
Or let anyone else, for that matter. And that's a good thing.
Tanus
CW wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> There is really no such thing as glue starvation in a joint unless there
>> is not enough glue to cover the surfaves in the first place. Squeezing
>> the heck out of a joint with clamps is not a problem providing there is
>> glue on all surfaces of the joint, and those surfaces touch each outher,
>> regardless of how thin the lglue line is.
>>
>
> According to Franklin, clamping pressure should be 175-250 psi for
> hardwoods. No worry of over clamping.
>
>
Fine Woodworking did a glue comparison test a little while back, and
found that for most glues the tighter the better. They also found that
for most glues, especially the most commonly-used PVA's, that there was
also no glue starvation problem, as noted above.
After reading the article, I changed my clamping technique to clamping
very, very tight on most joints, and have achieved greater success as a
result. The only glue that I use that I don't worry about clamping too
tight is epoxy, because epoxy has superior gap-filling properties.
scritch wrote:
> Fine Woodworking did a glue comparison test a little while back, and
> found that for most glues the tighter the better. They also found that
> for most glues, especially the most commonly-used PVA's, that there was
> also no glue starvation problem, as noted above.
>
> After reading the article, I changed my clamping technique to clamping
> very, very tight on most joints, and have achieved greater success as a
> result. The only glue that I use that I don't worry about clamping too
> tight is epoxy, because epoxy has superior gap-filling properties.
When I first started WWing, I clamped things as tight as I could. No
failures. Later, I read that was wrong, and you shouldn't over clamp.
I tried less clamping pressure and you guessed it, no failures. Now,
they seem to want more pressure... Personally, I quit worrying about it
(never really worried much anyway) and clamp until no gaps, and maybe a
tad more... somewhere between 10 psi and 1,0000 psi. Not sure, I don't
measure it:-)
For me, the most important issue for ME to worry about is squeeze out.
I don't want much (any), and I don't want a dry joint. If you know
what you are doing, you get little squeeze out (unlike Norm and Scott)
and no dry joints. It just ain't that hard. Well, it might be hard if
you are on TV, not sure about that...
--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> There is really no such thing as glue starvation in a joint unless there
> is not enough glue to cover the surfaves in the first place. Squeezing
> the heck out of a joint with clamps is not a problem providing there is
> glue on all surfaces of the joint, and those surfaces touch each outher,
> regardless of how thin the lglue line is.
>
According to Franklin, clamping pressure should be 175-250 psi for
hardwoods. No worry of over clamping.
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> WW wrote:
>>> As I mentioned in earlier post about moistening wood before gluing. All
>>> of you were correct in replies. I took the items to a friend to
>>> thickness sand. He dropped one and it fell apart at the glue joints. So
>>> much for my bright idea. I learn a lot from this group, thanks. Warren
>>>
>>
>
> I'm not sure where you came up with the idea in the first place. Maybe
> it was planted in your head by hearing a correct idea and it got garbled
> up in the memory banks, as often happens to me.
>
> In any case, I could see someone offering the advise to wet the gluing
> surfaces of the wood, then "let dry" before applying glue. This would
> act to open up the pores a bit and possibly help the wood soak up the
> glue.
>
> I'm not saying it's a correct theory or practice... just saying I could
> believe someone might offer that advice.
Yeah the opening the pores up thing IMHO does not hold water either. You
get a better bond on wood that is shiney smooth and no open grain. Take
maple for example. I don't believe that the typical wood glue needs a
"tooth" to bond well. Typically the more glue there is in a joint, in
excess, the more likely it is to fail. There is really no such thing as
glue starvation in a joint unless there is not enough glue to cover the
surfaves in the first place. Squeezing the heck out of a joint with clamps
is not a problem providing there is glue on all surfaces of the joint, and
those surfaces touch each outher, regardless of how thin the lglue line is.