Pots and Pans Drawers Should Be In The Building Code

On Saturday, October 14, 2017 at 10:16:31 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 06:53:19 -0700 (PDT)
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> > I have. a mid-1950=E2=80=99s kitchen with stick built cabinets. There a=
re no
> > individual boxes, e.g. behind 3 doors is one large open space. I have
> > been (very slowly) doing some upgrades, like building new utensil
> > drawers, etc.=20
>=20
> lot of kitchens hang the pots and pans on hooks now
>=20
> just reach for it when needed

I have both: A hanging rack above the stove for the most commonly used item=
s and now=20
the drawers for the rest.

It's hard to hang everything...especially items without hooked handles.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 16:39:07 -0400, J. Clarke
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:51:17 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 23-Sep-17 10:20 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:57:08 -0500, dpb<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
>>>>> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
>>>> why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
>>>> than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
>>>> get to the back more easily, though.
>>>>
>>>> I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
>>>> support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
>>>> laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
>>>> of trying it in the kitchen as well...
>>>
>>> The problem is that the more a space is divided, the less "stuff" that
>>> can be crammed in the space. My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
>>> shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
>>> double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
>>> kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
>>> She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
>>> unfinished basement. ;-)
>>
>>Build some storage down there and add a conveyor...or a drone. :)
>
>More to the point, build a shop down there and then use it to build
>her her dream kitchen.

I have all sorts of saws but none will make the kitchen bigger. I
might have even taken a wall down if it wouldn't lose the uppers and
if it wasn't structural (all walls are in this house).

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:18:20 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 11:20:12 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:57:08 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> >...
>> >
>> >> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
>> >> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
>> >...
>> >
>> >That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
>> >why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
>> >than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
>> >get to the back more easily, though.
>> >
>> >I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
>> >support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
>> >laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
>> >of trying it in the kitchen as well...
>>
>> The problem is that the more a space is divided, the less "stuff" that
>> can be crammed in the space. My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
>> shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
>> double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
>> kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
>> She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
>> unfinished basement. ;-)
>
>(This is in response to both of your recent posts. This one and the one where
>you used the words "too restrictive")
>
>Obviously, each kitchen and each user has different requirements, so I'm
>not pushing back on your comments, just relaying *our* experience. My wife
>cooks extensively and also bakes. (I saw "apple pie" on her To-Do list
>for this weekend. 'Tis the season. Yahoo!)

Absolutely. I was going to do whatever she wanted in this kitchen.
She didn't want anything done. She liked what I did in the previous
house but didn't want it here. Not my decision.
>
>We found that even after losing 2" in width, 2" in depth and 1" in height,
>we feel like we have *more space* than before. As a reminder, I converted a
>open section of a base cabinet that had 2 doors and a center stile into 2
>double wide drawers, each 30" x 20". The bottom drawer is 11" in height and
>the top drawer is 8". I used full extension slides.

Did you keep the doors or make new fronts? How did it match?

>Note: If I had installed single wide drawers into single bay base cabinets
>this would be a totally different story. The fact that my drawers are 30" wide
>with no center barrier makes a huge difference.

Yes, I can see that it would. I was thinking that you added drawers
_inside_ the base cabinets. I don't think I could match the cabinets
well enough.

How much weight can the drawers take?
>
>The drawers allow us to easily stack bowls, pots, pans, baking dishes, etc.,
>within each other in nice neat columns. While the same was *possible* before
>the drawers, it rarely happened. After we'd dig out that big bowl from the
>back, it rarely made it back under the smaller bowls in the same manner. The
>same with the pots and pans, etc. It was always a mess until one of us decided
>to organize the shelves. Even when organized, we often had to take out the
>stacks the front to get to the stacks in the back and then reverse the process
>after the various pots, pans etc. were washed. Now we just look down into
>the drawers where we can see everything that is in them. Lift the stuff on top,
>take out what you need, put the rest back down - all while standing up, not
>down the floor looking sideways into the dark back of the bottom shelf.
>
>We left nothing out when we filled the drawers and we now have room for other
>items that were previously stored elsewhere. The main reason is that we are
>now using the full height of the space on a consistent basis, something that
>rarely occurred with just the shelves. I'll admit that I originally told
>SWMBO that she might have to give up some space and some items, so we were
>pleasantly surprised that we actually *gained* space because it is so easy to
>keep everything organized. In addition, everything ends up in the same place
>as before it was used so we know what is in each drawer and don't have to
>search for anything.
>
>I supposed if you are 100% consistent in putting everything back in the same
>place every time, then your shelves will stay organized, but that wasn't
>how it worked with us. However, perfect organization wouldn't prevent the
>need to get down on the floor the get items from the back. That not an issue
>with the drawers.

Her kitchen. Her problem. I stay out. ;-)

On 9/22/2017 7:53 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> People need to be protected from themselves. :-)
>
That WAS a bit of sarcasm, right?

On 9/23/2017 11:20 AM, [email protected] wrote:

> My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
> shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
> double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
> kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
> She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
> unfinished basement. ;-)
>


Nice size for a basement.

I converted the hall closet to a pantry/pot storage by adding a few
shelves. It can take some big stuff now.

On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 10:43:19 AM UTC-4, G Ross wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I have. a mid-1950=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2s kitchen with stick built ca=
binets. There are no individual boxes, e.g. behind
> > 3 doors is one large open space. I have been (very slowly) doing some u=
pgrades, like building
> > new utensil drawers, etc.
> >
> > Over the past month or so, I converted one base cabinet section from 3 =
doors to 4 drawers.
> > There are 2 double wide drawers for pots and pans and 2 single drawers =
for plastics
> > containers, lids, etc.
> >
> > Holy crap, what a difference! No more crawling on the floor to find tha=
t small pot that
> > got pushed to back of the bottom shelf. No more grabbing the flashlight=
to find that
> > missing lid. SWMBO is so happy that she says I don't have to do anythin=
g else, the
> > drawers are enough. ;-)
> >
> > I was able to use the old doors (along with some spares that were in th=
e shed from when
> > my neighbor had his kitchen replaced [same builder, same original kitch=
en]) to make
> > matching drawer fronts for the time being. After building a bookcase fo=
r SWMBO's
> > cookbooks, I'm going to get back to building new doors and drawer front=
s for the entire
> > kitchen.
> >
> > I don't know why we lived with base cabinet doors instead of drawers fo=
r so long. So many
> > years of inconvenience. Pots and Pans drawers should be in the building=
code for all
> > kitchen builds and remodels. People need to be protected from themselve=
s. :-)
> >
> I took the lazy way out and installed seven deep plastic drawers in=20
> four lower cabinets for the different kinds of pots and pans. They=20
> work well. They have a base that screws into the shelf and the drawer=20
> slides in those. To remove the drawer you tilt up the front.
>=20
> --=20
> G Ross

Hey! This is rec.woodworking, not rec.plasticworking. :-)

Whatever saves the knees is what really matters. In a rental property that =
my grandfather
built back in the 60's he inslalled base cabinets that had slide-out trays.=
They were=20
single bay units, not double wide drawers like I built, so you lost a littl=
e space in each=20
cabinet, but they made the cabinets easier to use.=20

I wonder why it's taken so long for large drawers to become a standard. I d=
on't know when they
started, but they sure are great.

On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 1:51:21 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
> On 23-Sep-17 10:20 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:57:08 -0500, dpb<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
> >>> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
> >> ...
> >>
> >> That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
> >> why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
> >> than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
> >> get to the back more easily, though.
> >>
> >> I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
> >> support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
> >> laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
> >> of trying it in the kitchen as well...
> >
> > The problem is that the more a space is divided, the less "stuff" that
> > can be crammed in the space. My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
> > shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
> > double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
> > kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
> > She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
> > unfinished basement. ;-)
>
> Build some storage down there and add a conveyor...or a drone. :)
>
> I just finished helping w/ noon dishes the other issue with the ones
> here is they're face-frame and the drawer can't be wider than the
> opening which makes narrower by that amount behind the frames...thin
> things like a drippings collector tray are on edge against the side that
> would be hard to utilize the same space with the drawer.
>
> If packing a space full divisions may reduce total storage of items,
> true, but a taller space with no dividers can also end up with a lot of
> wasted air above the items sitting on the one level or the difficulty of
> retrieving a given item is high owing to having to unstack/restack so
> much to get to it...catch 22.
>
> There really is no good solution to "real world" storage imo; the mag's
> have gorgeous pictures of neatness but there's never really anything but
> the show place settings and a fancy copper kettle in sight...the
> daily-used stuff is nowhere to be seen.
>
> --

Please see my other post about the ability to use the full height of the
space when a drawer is installed. Full stacking is easy (and consistent)
and access to the stack that used to be at the far back of the bottom shelf
is now achieved by simply reaching down into the full extension drawer.

As I mentioned, the loss of a couple of inches in both width and depth and
1" in physical height has - at least in my case - been more than compensated
for in *usable* height and the ease of organization of easily accessible
drawers vs. the shelves, especially the bottom shelf.

We should also make sure that we are comparing apples to apples: My drawers
are 2 bays wide. A 32" RO reduced to 30" of drawer space. Smaller single bay
drawers would be reduced by another 1" *each*. The wider drawers not only
allow for less loss, but gain the advantage of allowing the use of large
and/or odd shaped items because of the wide open real estate. We are definitely
overlapping the space that would be taken up at the "center" of 2 single wide
drawers. Yes, we lost the space behind the left and right face frame, but the
ability to easily use the full height plus the ease of organization more than
makes up for that loss.

On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 10:52:55 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 9/23/2017 11:20 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
> > shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
> > double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
> > kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
> > She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
> > unfinished basement. ;-)
> >
>
>
> Nice size for a basement.
>
> I converted the hall closet to a pantry/pot storage by adding a few
> shelves. It can take some big stuff now.

Great minds...

I did that to one of the 2 closets in the boys' old bedroom, now set up
as a guest room. Waffle iron, crock pot(s), flower vases, extra large
stock pots, etc. I was able to consolidate items that were stored here
and there and/or took up too much room in the kitchen for the amount
they get used.

Much neater and more efficient now that they are all in one place.

On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 8:43:32 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:18:20 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 11:20:12 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:57:08 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> >...
> >> >
> >> >> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
> >> >> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
> >> >...
> >> >
> >> >That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
> >> >why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
> >> >than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
> >> >get to the back more easily, though.
> >> >
> >> >I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
> >> >support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
> >> >laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
> >> >of trying it in the kitchen as well...
> >>
> >> The problem is that the more a space is divided, the less "stuff" that
> >> can be crammed in the space. My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
> >> shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
> >> double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
> >> kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
> >> She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
> >> unfinished basement. ;-)
> >
> >(This is in response to both of your recent posts. This one and the one where
> >you used the words "too restrictive")
> >
> >Obviously, each kitchen and each user has different requirements, so I'm
> >not pushing back on your comments, just relaying *our* experience. My wife
> >cooks extensively and also bakes. (I saw "apple pie" on her To-Do list
> >for this weekend. 'Tis the season. Yahoo!)
>
> Absolutely. I was going to do whatever she wanted in this kitchen.
> She didn't want anything done. She liked what I did in the previous
> house but didn't want it here. Not my decision.
> >
> >We found that even after losing 2" in width, 2" in depth and 1" in height,
> >we feel like we have *more space* than before. As a reminder, I converted a
> >open section of a base cabinet that had 2 doors and a center stile into 2
> >double wide drawers, each 30" x 20". The bottom drawer is 11" in height and
> >the top drawer is 8". I used full extension slides.
>
> Did you keep the doors or make new fronts?

Yes! I kept the doors and turned them into fronts. It's only temporary because
I'm in the process of making all new doors and drawer fronts for the entire
kitchen. Winter project. Hopefully, we'll be painting the cabinets this spring,
then a new counter, then the doors and drawers fronts will be hung.

> How did it match?

They "match" because the doors were converted to fronts, but I had to use
pieces and parts from the 3 doors and one spare that I had out in the shed.
Like I said, it's temporary and always there to remind me that I really need
to get busy on the new fronts.

This should help. The section in the images below used to have 3 doors, one
below each upper drawer. Behind the 3 doors was one big wide open space. 52"
wide, 23" deep, split horizontally about 60/40 by a shelf. Now it looks like
this:

https://i.imgur.com/GURglGF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ohOgUe1.jpg

BTW, the small upper drawer boxes are also new, but of course the original
fronts fit just fine.

What I'm building will look like these:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/rtaproducts/category/frosted-white.jpg

Like I said earlier, technically I did lose space, but I got it all back
(plus some) due to the inherent organization that the drawers allow.

>
> >Note: If I had installed single wide drawers into single bay base cabinets
> >this would be a totally different story. The fact that my drawers are 30" wide
> >with no center barrier makes a huge difference.
>
> Yes, I can see that it would. I was thinking that you added drawers
> _inside_ the base cabinets. I don't think I could match the cabinets
> well enough.

Well, I did add drawers _inside_ the base cabinets. They would have taken
up too much room *outside* the cabinets. ;-)

>
> How much weight can the drawers take?

The under mount slides for the 2 large drawers are rated at 120#, the side
mounts for the other drawers are rated at 100#. The under mount slides are
screwed directly to the shelf. I made Swingman's 3-sided frames for the side
mounted slides. Since there are no walls inside the cabinets, there is
nothing to mount the cabinet member to, so Swingman's solution works great.
The frames were mounted to the shelf with pocket screws.

> >
> >The drawers allow us to easily stack bowls, pots, pans, baking dishes, etc.,
> >within each other in nice neat columns. While the same was *possible* before
> >the drawers, it rarely happened. After we'd dig out that big bowl from the
> >back, it rarely made it back under the smaller bowls in the same manner. The
> >same with the pots and pans, etc. It was always a mess until one of us decided
> >to organize the shelves. Even when organized, we often had to take out the
> >stacks the front to get to the stacks in the back and then reverse the process
> >after the various pots, pans etc. were washed. Now we just look down into
> >the drawers where we can see everything that is in them. Lift the stuff on top,
> >take out what you need, put the rest back down - all while standing up, not
> >down the floor looking sideways into the dark back of the bottom shelf.
> >
> >We left nothing out when we filled the drawers and we now have room for other
> >items that were previously stored elsewhere. The main reason is that we are
> >now using the full height of the space on a consistent basis, something that
> >rarely occurred with just the shelves. I'll admit that I originally told
> >SWMBO that she might have to give up some space and some items, so we were
> >pleasantly surprised that we actually *gained* space because it is so easy to
> >keep everything organized. In addition, everything ends up in the same place
> >as before it was used so we know what is in each drawer and don't have to
> >search for anything.
> >
> >I supposed if you are 100% consistent in putting everything back in the same
> >place every time, then your shelves will stay organized, but that wasn't
> >how it worked with us. However, perfect organization wouldn't prevent the
> >need to get down on the floor the get items from the back. That not an issue
> >with the drawers.
>
> Her kitchen. Her problem. I stay out. ;-)

We both cook, although she does 99% of it, and does it much, much better.
We both do the dishes, so filling the cabinets was a shared frustration,
while filling the drawers is a shared pleasure.

The kitchen is old and tired. We've put it off for way too long, but the 4
kids are all out of college and out on their own, so we're doing some things
for ourselves while there's still time to enjoy it. Dropping $40K into a
complete gut job isn't how we want to spend our money, so I'm slowly
upgrading things little by little.

On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 10:56:29 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 06:53:19 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> >I have. a mid-1950=E2=80=99s kitchen with stick built cabinets. There ar=
e no individual boxes, e.g. behind=20
> >3 doors is one large open space. I have been (very slowly) doing some up=
grades, like building
> >new utensil drawers, etc.=20
> >
> >Over the past month or so, I converted one base cabinet section from 3 d=
oors to 4 drawers.=20
> >There are 2 double wide drawers for pots and pans and 2 single drawers f=
or plastics=20
> >containers, lids, etc.=20
> >
> >Holy crap, what a difference! No more crawling on the floor to find that=
small pot that
> >got pushed to back of the bottom shelf. No more grabbing the flashlight =
to find that=20
> >missing lid. SWMBO is so happy that she says I don't have to do anything=
else, the
> >drawers are enough. ;-)
> >
> >I was able to use the old doors (along with some spares that were in the=
shed from when
> >my neighbor had his kitchen replaced [same builder, same original kitche=
n]) to make=20
> >matching drawer fronts for the time being. After building a bookcase for=
SWMBO's=20
> >cookbooks, I'm going to get back to building new doors and drawer fronts=
for the entire=20
> >kitchen.
> >
> >I don't know why we lived with base cabinet doors instead of drawers for=
so long. So many
> >years of inconvenience. Pots and Pans drawers should be in the building =
code for all
> >kitchen builds and remodels. People need to be protected from themselves=
. :-)
>=20
> I put wire pot drawers in the lower cabinets in my previous house.
> SWMBO wanted the lower cabinets left alone in this one. Made life
> simpler. ;-)

Could it be that the wire drawers turned her off to drawers? I never liked =
the look of wire
drawers and I don't think I'd like the feel.=20

However, the bold look and solid feel of a 2 bay wide wooden drawer on heav=
y duty=20
undermount slides make a statement and are a pleasure to use.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:57:08 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>...
>
>> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
>> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
>...
>
>That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
>why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
>than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
>get to the back more easily, though.
>
>I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
>support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
>laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
>of trying it in the kitchen as well...

The problem is that the more a space is divided, the less "stuff" that
can be crammed in the space. My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
unfinished basement. ;-)

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 05:17:59 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 10:56:29 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 06:53:19 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >I have. a mid-1950’s kitchen with stick built cabinets. There are no individual boxes, e.g. behind
>> >3 doors is one large open space. I have been (very slowly) doing some upgrades, like building
>> >new utensil drawers, etc.
>> >
>> >Over the past month or so, I converted one base cabinet section from 3 doors to 4 drawers.
>> >There are 2 double wide drawers for pots and pans and 2 single drawers for plastics
>> >containers, lids, etc.
>> >
>> >Holy crap, what a difference! No more crawling on the floor to find that small pot that
>> >got pushed to back of the bottom shelf. No more grabbing the flashlight to find that
>> >missing lid. SWMBO is so happy that she says I don't have to do anything else, the
>> >drawers are enough. ;-)
>> >
>> >I was able to use the old doors (along with some spares that were in the shed from when
>> >my neighbor had his kitchen replaced [same builder, same original kitchen]) to make
>> >matching drawer fronts for the time being. After building a bookcase for SWMBO's
>> >cookbooks, I'm going to get back to building new doors and drawer fronts for the entire
>> >kitchen.
>> >
>> >I don't know why we lived with base cabinet doors instead of drawers for so long. So many
>> >years of inconvenience. Pots and Pans drawers should be in the building code for all
>> >kitchen builds and remodels. People need to be protected from themselves. :-)
>>
>> I put wire pot drawers in the lower cabinets in my previous house.
>> SWMBO wanted the lower cabinets left alone in this one. Made life
>> simpler. ;-)
>
>Could it be that the wire drawers turned her off to drawers? I never liked the look of wire
>drawers and I don't think I'd like the feel.

No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.

>However, the bold look and solid feel of a 2 bay wide wooden drawer on heavy duty
>undermount slides make a statement and are a pleasure to use.

The wire drawers had very good slides. No problems there but they
were still drawers. Wood drawers take even more space.

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 06:53:19 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I have. a mid-1950’s kitchen with stick built cabinets. There are no individual boxes, e.g. behind
>3 doors is one large open space. I have been (very slowly) doing some upgrades, like building
>new utensil drawers, etc.
>
>Over the past month or so, I converted one base cabinet section from 3 doors to 4 drawers.
>There are 2 double wide drawers for pots and pans and 2 single drawers for plastics
>containers, lids, etc.
>
>Holy crap, what a difference! No more crawling on the floor to find that small pot that
>got pushed to back of the bottom shelf. No more grabbing the flashlight to find that
>missing lid. SWMBO is so happy that she says I don't have to do anything else, the
>drawers are enough. ;-)
>
>I was able to use the old doors (along with some spares that were in the shed from when
>my neighbor had his kitchen replaced [same builder, same original kitchen]) to make
>matching drawer fronts for the time being. After building a bookcase for SWMBO's
>cookbooks, I'm going to get back to building new doors and drawer fronts for the entire
>kitchen.
>
>I don't know why we lived with base cabinet doors instead of drawers for so long. So many
>years of inconvenience. Pots and Pans drawers should be in the building code for all
>kitchen builds and remodels. People need to be protected from themselves. :-)

I put wire pot drawers in the lower cabinets in my previous house.
SWMBO wanted the lower cabinets left alone in this one. Made life
simpler. ;-)

On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 11:20:12 AM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:57:08 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> >...
> >
> >> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
> >> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
> >...
> >
> >That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
> >why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
> >than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
> >get to the back more easily, though.
> >
> >I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
> >support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
> >laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
> >of trying it in the kitchen as well...
>
> The problem is that the more a space is divided, the less "stuff" that
> can be crammed in the space. My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
> shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
> double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
> kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
> She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
> unfinished basement. ;-)

(This is in response to both of your recent posts. This one and the one where
you used the words "too restrictive")

Obviously, each kitchen and each user has different requirements, so I'm
not pushing back on your comments, just relaying *our* experience. My wife
cooks extensively and also bakes. (I saw "apple pie" on her To-Do list
for this weekend. 'Tis the season. Yahoo!)

We found that even after losing 2" in width, 2" in depth and 1" in height,
we feel like we have *more space* than before. As a reminder, I converted a
open section of a base cabinet that had 2 doors and a center stile into 2
double wide drawers, each 30" x 20". The bottom drawer is 11" in height and
the top drawer is 8". I used full extension slides.

Note: If I had installed single wide drawers into single bay base cabinets
this would be a totally different story. The fact that my drawers are 30" wide
with no center barrier makes a huge difference.

The drawers allow us to easily stack bowls, pots, pans, baking dishes, etc.,
within each other in nice neat columns. While the same was *possible* before
the drawers, it rarely happened. After we'd dig out that big bowl from the
back, it rarely made it back under the smaller bowls in the same manner. The
same with the pots and pans, etc. It was always a mess until one of us decided
to organize the shelves. Even when organized, we often had to take out the
stacks the front to get to the stacks in the back and then reverse the process
after the various pots, pans etc. were washed. Now we just look down into
the drawers where we can see everything that is in them. Lift the stuff on top,
take out what you need, put the rest back down - all while standing up, not
down the floor looking sideways into the dark back of the bottom shelf.

We left nothing out when we filled the drawers and we now have room for other
items that were previously stored elsewhere. The main reason is that we are
now using the full height of the space on a consistent basis, something that
rarely occurred with just the shelves. I'll admit that I originally told
SWMBO that she might have to give up some space and some items, so we were
pleasantly surprised that we actually *gained* space because it is so easy to
keep everything organized. In addition, everything ends up in the same place
as before it was used so we know what is in each drawer and don't have to
search for anything.

I supposed if you are 100% consistent in putting everything back in the same
place every time, then your shelves will stay organized, but that wasn't
how it worked with us. However, perfect organization wouldn't prevent the
need to get down on the floor the get items from the back. That not an issue
with the drawers.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:51:17 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 23-Sep-17 10:20 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:57:08 -0500, dpb<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
>>>> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
>>> why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
>>> than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
>>> get to the back more easily, though.
>>>
>>> I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
>>> support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
>>> laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
>>> of trying it in the kitchen as well...
>>
>> The problem is that the more a space is divided, the less "stuff" that
>> can be crammed in the space. My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
>> shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
>> double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
>> kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
>> She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
>> unfinished basement. ;-)
>
>Build some storage down there and add a conveyor...or a drone. :)

Why? We have stairs. ;-)

>I just finished helping w/ noon dishes the other issue with the ones
>here is they're face-frame and the drawer can't be wider than the
>opening which makes narrower by that amount behind the frames...thin
>things like a drippings collector tray are on edge against the side that
>would be hard to utilize the same space with the drawer.

Yes, and cookie sheets. Vertical dividers work better than drawers.

>If packing a space full divisions may reduce total storage of items,
>true, but a taller space with no dividers can also end up with a lot of
>wasted air above the items sitting on the one level or the difficulty of
>retrieving a given item is high owing to having to unstack/restack so
>much to get to it...catch 22.

Variety. Things generally go back into the same space so vertical and
horizontal dividers work. I liked the drawers, too, but she's SWMBO.
>
>There really is no good solution to "real world" storage imo; the mag's
>have gorgeous pictures of neatness but there's never really anything but
>the show place settings and a fancy copper kettle in sight...the
>daily-used stuff is nowhere to be seen.

That's the point. It shouldn't. ;-)

DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I have. a mid-1950’s kitchen with stick built cabinets. There are no individual boxes, e.g. behind
> 3 doors is one large open space. I have been (very slowly) doing some upgrades, like building
> new utensil drawers, etc.
>
> Over the past month or so, I converted one base cabinet section from 3 doors to 4 drawers.
> There are 2 double wide drawers for pots and pans and 2 single drawers for plastics
> containers, lids, etc.
>
> Holy crap, what a difference! No more crawling on the floor to find that small pot that
> got pushed to back of the bottom shelf. No more grabbing the flashlight to find that
> missing lid. SWMBO is so happy that she says I don't have to do anything else, the
> drawers are enough. ;-)
>
> I was able to use the old doors (along with some spares that were in the shed from when
> my neighbor had his kitchen replaced [same builder, same original kitchen]) to make
> matching drawer fronts for the time being. After building a bookcase for SWMBO's
> cookbooks, I'm going to get back to building new doors and drawer fronts for the entire
> kitchen.
>
> I don't know why we lived with base cabinet doors instead of drawers for so long. So many
> years of inconvenience. Pots and Pans drawers should be in the building code for all
> kitchen builds and remodels. People need to be protected from themselves. :-)
>
I took the lazy way out and installed seven deep plastic drawers in
four lower cabinets for the different kinds of pots and pans. They
work well. They have a base that screws into the shelf and the drawer
slides in those. To remove the drawer you tilt up the front.

--
G Ross

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 12:51:17 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 23-Sep-17 10:20 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:57:08 -0500, dpb<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
>>>> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
>>> why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
>>> than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
>>> get to the back more easily, though.
>>>
>>> I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
>>> support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
>>> laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
>>> of trying it in the kitchen as well...
>>
>> The problem is that the more a space is divided, the less "stuff" that
>> can be crammed in the space. My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
>> shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
>> double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
>> kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
>> She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
>> unfinished basement. ;-)
>
>Build some storage down there and add a conveyor...or a drone. :)

More to the point, build a shop down there and then use it to build
her her dream kitchen.

>I just finished helping w/ noon dishes the other issue with the ones
>here is they're face-frame and the drawer can't be wider than the
>opening which makes narrower by that amount behind the frames...thin
>things like a drippings collector tray are on edge against the side that
>would be hard to utilize the same space with the drawer.
>
>If packing a space full divisions may reduce total storage of items,
>true, but a taller space with no dividers can also end up with a lot of
>wasted air above the items sitting on the one level or the difficulty of
>retrieving a given item is high owing to having to unstack/restack so
>much to get to it...catch 22.
>
>There really is no good solution to "real world" storage imo; the mag's
>have gorgeous pictures of neatness but there's never really anything but
>the show place settings and a fancy copper kettle in sight...the
>daily-used stuff is nowhere to be seen.

On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
...

> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
...

That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
get to the back more easily, though.

I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
of trying it in the kitchen as well...

--

On 23-Sep-17 10:20 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:57:08 -0500, dpb<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 23-Sep-17 8:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> No, drawers were too restrictive. This kitchen doesn't have as many
>>> base cabinets so she has to be more inventive stacking stuff in them.
>> ...
>>
>> That's a major problem here...there are only two so it is cramped and
>> why I've not added drawers. I have thought of a sideless drawer other
>> than very short lip with undermount slide to minimize height loss so can
>> get to the back more easily, though.
>>
>> I turned side-mount HD slides flat and "doubled-up" the number for
>> support on a slideout shelf for the printer in office...it was old heavy
>> laser and that worked well without taking but 1/2" in height. Thinking
>> of trying it in the kitchen as well...
>
> The problem is that the more a space is divided, the less "stuff" that
> can be crammed in the space. My wife is a baker, so has all sorts and
> shapes of baking pans. The kitchen in the previous house was about
> double the size of this one (though this house is 50% larger). The
> kitchen still isn't small but it's just not the dream kitchen she had.
> She's not happy about losing her kitchen but I picked up 2000ft^2 of
> unfinished basement. ;-)

Build some storage down there and add a conveyor...or a drone. :)

I just finished helping w/ noon dishes the other issue with the ones
here is they're face-frame and the drawer can't be wider than the
opening which makes narrower by that amount behind the frames...thin
things like a drippings collector tray are on edge against the side that
would be hard to utilize the same space with the drawer.

If packing a space full divisions may reduce total storage of items,
true, but a taller space with no dividers can also end up with a lot of
wasted air above the items sitting on the one level or the difficulty of
retrieving a given item is high owing to having to unstack/restack so
much to get to it...catch 22.

There really is no good solution to "real world" storage imo; the mag's
have gorgeous pictures of neatness but there's never really anything but
the show place settings and a fancy copper kettle in sight...the
daily-used stuff is nowhere to be seen.

--

On 23-Sep-17 2:42 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

> We should also make sure that we are comparing apples to apples: My drawers
> are 2 bays wide. A 32" RO reduced to 30" of drawer space. Smaller single bay
> drawers would be reduced by another 1" *each*. The wider drawers not only
> allow for less loss, but gain the advantage of allowing the use of large
> and/or odd shaped items because of the wide open real estate. We are definitely
> overlapping the space that would be taken up at the "center" of 2 single wide
> drawers. Yes, we lost the space behind the left and right face frame, but the
> ability to easily use the full height plus the ease of organization more than
> makes up for that loss.

Compared to this kitchen, that's huge! :)

And, I understood that; certainly having "all that room" would be a
major boon here.

These are single units...I don't recall exact width, but <24" opening
for certain...and, unfortunately, that's all the room there is room for,
one of those and the one on other side of range slightly smaller...well,
shoot, let's just go check--

They're even smaller than I thought 19-1/2 and 11-1/2 openings...

So, I'm guessing I'll not do anything altho I might just try a plain
flat bottom in there that does slide out just to see if the rear access
would help any...certainly as is now in the one there isn't anything in
the back of the larger one on the bottom shelf except a couple
less-often used pans; if there were a half-shelf that came forward it
would create a second level and that might make up for the loss in width
as there is a lot of air in there...

--

On 23-Sep-17 9:52 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
...

> I converted the hall closet to a pantry/pot storage by adding a few
> shelves. It can take some big stuff now.

That's the one thing we have is a large pantry directly off the
kitchen...my uncle Wilbur builtin a set of shelves some 50 yr ago which
made a big help but they also are just shelves with no organizing aids
and there's a ledge below that is open area of 28" or so.

I need to build some organization into it and would make all the
difference but I haven't had inspiration of the magic orientation and
not had time to actually sit down and measure and design something that
works.

--

On 23-Sep-17 9:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

> What I'm building will look like these:
>
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/rtaproducts/category/frosted-white.jpg
...

> The kitchen is old and tired. We've put it off for way too long, but the 4
> kids are all out of college and out on their own, so we're doing some things
> for ourselves while there's still time to enjoy it. Dropping $40K into a
> complete gut job isn't how we want to spend our money, so I'm slowly
> upgrading things little by little.

The whole old farm house is, too...folks refurb'ed it (full gut to studs
all outer walls to insulate/wiring, the works, etc.) in late '70s/early
'80s and it hasn't had anything inside since and shows.

I started the idea of refacing the cabinets the year after we came
(2000) to the point of buying the material and it's still waiting.

I intended same style doors but unlike you I removed one for sizing and
it's been off now since setting in the corner! :)

I built the originals for dad way back when; mom wanted "plain" so
they're just slab doors with routed edges. I wanted to go inset instead
of surface but I've run into problem that dad and I built a custom lazy
susan into the back corner and we used every fraction of an inch we
could for storage so the front lip of the cutout section protrudes 'til
it barely clears the 3/8" inset of the door. It would be a major job to
get into that cabinet to work on fixing that so I've been puzzling ever
since on just how to do what I really wanted...

We, too, have finally decided 'enough is enough' and are trying to
actually get some things going so I guess I'll just do the next best and
do the overlays. Unfortunately, the one thing we _did_ do was replace
the wornout Formica countertop with a faux stone but I didn't add
additional overhang as I was counting on inset doors...

--

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 06:53:19 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have. a mid-1950=E2=80=99s kitchen with stick built cabinets. There are=
no
> individual boxes, e.g. behind 3 doors is one large open space. I have
> been (very slowly) doing some upgrades, like building new utensil
> drawers, etc.=20

lot of kitchens hang the pots and pans on hooks now

just reach for it when needed