Re-stain over tung oil?

On 11/9/2010 11:22 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> It's been over 30 years, but once an addict, always an addict.
>
> One cigar, no matter how bad, and I would be hooked again.
>
> I'm one of those "hell on wheels" reformed smokers.

Never got into cigars, but I still like the smell of one, unlike the
stink, at least to this ex-smoker, of a cigarette.

19 years this Nov 16th smoked my last one after a thirty year, three
pack a day habit. Sitting on the porch with a cup of coffee a couple of
days ago and I had a strong urge to reach for one ... what the hell
triggered that?

What is amazing is that today I don't have a single acquaintance who
smokes, and rarely even see anyone smoke; when it wasn't all that long
ago that it was rare to know someone who didn't, and there were
cigarette butts everywhere you looked to prove it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:00:31 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"jmg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>Anybody remember the Stain Over Old Paint TV commercials?

Is that the one they played, contextually, during Boris Karloff
flicks?

--
To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
-- J. K. Rowling

"jmg" wrote:

>I have an oak armoire that was finished 20 years ago with just Minwax
>Tung
> Oil (no stain underneath). It
> has not been touched, retouched, reapplied, etc. since then. I'd
> like to
> give it a dark finish. Can I do this
> without sanding? Can I/should I use gel stain? A few coats of dark
> tung
> or tung mixed with a dark stain?
>
> There's some carved molding that will nearly impossible to sand,
> which is
> why I'd like to avoid having to do
> so (in addition to sheer size). Everything I can find online seems
> to
> assume the tung-oil finish has been
> reapplied over the years or has been applied recently, and I don't
> know if
> time makes any difference.
>
-------------------------------------
If the piece has any value, invest in the services of a commercial
furniture stripper.

They hang the piece in a fume bath and strip back to bare wood without
affecting the surface or attacking the glues.

Any DIY process will not produce equal results.

Lew

"Sonny" wrote:

> Well, sure, stripping the whole piece is the optimum procedure, but
> there is a way of achieving excellent results without stripping
> everything to bare bones, even assuming the piece is a genuine
> antique. I don't think the piece is an antique.
>
> 1) Cleaning the piece, thoroughly, is paramount to an refinish, no
> matter what age it is. Beyond that, prep the piece, ie., sand it
> down
> properly, after cleaning.
>
> 2) Blend the proper color match with whatever is the proper
> compatible
> finish. Test the blend(s) for the color or color match you want.
>
> 3) Don't look for an easy way out. Don't skimp on any of the
> appropriate procedures for refinishing a "previously finished
> piece".
> If the piece is in horrible shape, then, essentially, stripping it
> to
> bare bones and starting from scratch may be warranted, otherwise, do
> a
> proper prep to refinish it with properly colored and compatible
> finish.
>
> BTW, I'd stay away from Minwax stains, for refinishing, especially,
> a
> "previously finished piece", as they have changed their blends and
> 1)
> it takes forever for their stains to dry properly (7 days plus)....
> they now contain aliphatic hydrocarbons (parafin), which, also,
> isn't
> 2) agreeable with many topcoats, unless specific for even some!!!!
> Minwax topcoat products - polycrylic (see above posts re:
> polycrylics/
> polyshades).... i.e., their stains 2.a) aren't compatible with
> previous finishes, nor are they 2.b) no longer compatible with many
> refinishing topcoats.... *
>
> *Re: 2, 2.a, 2.b - Unless you want to use dewaxed shellac between
> applications.
>
> If you want a preferable color toner, I would recommend TransTint
> dyes
> or Old Masters stains, for color correctness, with a compatible
> topcoat finish. Many, typical, topcoats don't work well with
> Minwax's
> new blend, because of the parafin.... lots of problems with topcoats
> adhereing properly. *Read the labels on Minwax's stain cans and
> understand what they are saying, before using these stains,
> especially
> when refinishing a "previously finished piece".
>
> Also, again, lots of folks like and work well/do good work with gell
> stains. They do work well, but I, personally, don't like using gel
> stains. *Reason: They are like paint, somewhat, in my opinion. I
> prefer not to "paint" nice wood or furniture pieces. Though I don't
> like them, a gel stain may be a good/reasonable solution to your
> specific needs.

-------------------------------
I hate stripping furniture, especially when the wood detail requires
the tooth brush approach.

Thus my suggestion of a commercial stripper.

I recognize that this is probably a hobby piece but even hobby time
has a price.

If you use $7/hr, which is about minimum wage most places, and
estimate 40-50 man hours to prep the piece, $300 from a commercial
stripper starts looking very attractive.

When it comes to finishing, I'm a total klutz; however, I've become
very fond of white oak and BLO. (33% BLO, 67% Turps, I like the smell
of turps)

Makes a great looking item, IMHO.

If you want a shine, 10-12 coats of shellac, rubbed out, should get
the job done, but me, I still like au natural.

Either of the above gets a paste wax job.

As far as stain is concerned, I try to avoid it like the plague, I
just don't possess the skill or patience to work with it; however,
have used Wood Kote out of Portland, OR a couple of times.

Found it back in Cleveland more than 40 years ago.

In any event, good luck to the person who has the task at hand.

Lew

"Sonny" wrote:

> Lew, my last post seemed to be critical of your comments, but that
> was
> not my intention and I appologize if I seemed rude, that way. You
> did
> have a valid points.
-------------------------------------
Rest easy, your comments were not considered critical, but rather an
explanation of techniques you have used that work.

--------------------------------------
> Additionally, if I may: Stripping may not be as troubling, these
> days, as in the past.
-------------------------------------
At this point in my life, I don't plan on stripping anything, except
maybe my clothes under the right conditions.<G>

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Sonny" wrote:
>
>> Lew, my last post seemed to be critical of your comments, but that
>> was
>> not my intention and I appologize if I seemed rude, that way. You
>> did
>> have a valid points.
> -------------------------------------
> Rest easy, your comments were not considered critical, but rather an
> explanation of techniques you have used that work.
>
> --------------------------------------
>> Additionally, if I may: Stripping may not be as troubling, these
>> days, as in the past.
> -------------------------------------
> At this point in my life, I don't plan on stripping anything, except
> maybe my clothes under the right conditions.<G>
>
> Lew
>
>
>

SFWIW

This past vweekend, they ran a "Norm Festival" on CREATETV.

One of the episodes featured a black walnut dining table.

It was finished with BLO that was allowed to dry 4-5 days followed by
10-12 coats of orange shellac, applied one coat per day.

Only the last coat was rubbed out.

Interesting way to get uniformity of color without the hassle of
stains.

Any of you finishing gurus care to comment?

Lew

"Larry Jaques" wrote:

> Shellac would go to hell with the very first strong alcoholic drink
> spilled on it, would scratch from most placemats, and would ring
> from
> any cold drink set on it. I think it's a totally bogus finish for a
> dining set, with all the wear and abuse they get daily. Feh!
-------------------------------
That's why dining tables usually have pads made for them along with
sets of table cloths and matching napkins.

Without them, hot/cold serving dishes become a problem along with
whatever liquids that are being served.

Lew

I wrote:

> One of the episodes featured a black walnut dining table.
>
> It was finished with BLO that was allowed to dry 4-5 days followed
> by
> 10-12 coats of orange shellac, applied one coat per day.
>
> Only the last coat was rubbed out.
>
> Interesting way to get uniformity of color without the hassle of
> stains.
>
> Any of you finishing gurus care to comment?
>
> Lew
------------------------------------------
<[email protected]> wrote:

There is a lot of strange opinions floating around in this thread.
While I may not be a finishing guru, I do get paid to do it, and
haven't ever had a dissatisfied customer.

Cliff notes:

Strip? Yes.

The whole piece? Yes. Unless you like two toned woods.

Stain over a **previously cured** finish whose exact formulation is
unknown? Trying to account for the level of coating deterioration due
to air exposure, age, unknown contaminants, etc., then going forth to
color match? No. I am surprised at the comments.

****************

As for Norm (who has suffered the slings and arrows from everyone I
know that finishes for a living)..... Ouch!!

BLO needs 21 days or more if it is BLO. If it is just Linseed Oil,
you are screwed and should take it off with a good thinner. BAD LO,
BAD!

Shellacking the surface of wet BLO is trouble. Dry to the touch does
not mean dry. It simply means it isn't sticky anymore. BLO must air
cure, and it needs all the air it can get to do it.

A fast buildup of shellac will allow only so much of the shellac to
dry, (no, it won't resolvate correctly either as a monolithic finish)
and the first coats will not outgas properly. Remember, shellac does
not cure, it simply dries up.

The amount of coats isn't the problem, it's the amount of material.
When I spray my hotter than hell conversion lacquer recipe, I can
recoat in 20 minutes. The key to buildup? Lacquer thinner is much
hotter (higher V.O.C.s) than the alcohol based shellac carrier. So it
dries faster. And you put on coats of about 2-3 mil (sprayed) at a
time, lengthening the time between coats as needed. This 2-3 mils
gives you a dried coating finish out of about 1 mils, thin enough to
outgas properly and to resolvate easily.

I usually won't shoot more than 5 - 6 coats a day, aiming for a 3 - 4
mil finish.

I have no doubt that Norm padded or brushed his shellac. That would
probably put him at about 5 - 6 mil at application. This needs time
to set up, and to start outgassing properly. You will know this by
the thumbprint test, not by simple timing. How he got that many coats
on in one day is impossible for me to fathom unless he just slammed it
on. The application thickness is simply too thick.

And that many coats of **orange** shellac? Was he building a toys for
children?

He will be able to see the true results of his work in a few months
when the smooth finish begins to distort because the under coats (and
the BLO) are still working and shrinking.

As far as rubbing out a green finish? Right. No finisher worth his
salt would rub out a finish such as shellac or lacquer in less than 21
days, and would feel safer with 30.

Norm has done a lot of really great stuff. But they should have
brought in a professional finisher to help him out years ago.

I got to the point where I would quit watching the show when he
started his finishing because it was too damn painful. Well intended
no doubt, but some of the things he did were just invitations to
disaster. Oddly, there were times when doing it correctly would have
been easier!
--------------------------------
Robert, time out.

That cigar is getting to you.

Please go back and re-read what I wrote.

Norm was told to allow the BLO to cure before starting shellac.

I added the 4-5 day cure time (Me bad), maybe it was longer.

The shellac was applied one a coat every 24 hours minimum.(They didn't
say what cut was used)

How much time was allowed after the final coat before rub out was
undefined.

The orange shellac was not Norm's idea.

The whole BLO, orange shellac process was the brain child of a cabinet
maker/furniture restorer down in Georgia.

BTW, the BLO was cut with mineral spirits.

They didn't say by how much, but the directions on the can I have
reads 1 part BLO, 2 parts mineral spirits.

Hope this clarifies things.

Lew

<[email protected]> wrote
>
> I got to the point where I would quit watching the show when he
> started his finishing because it was too damn painful. Well intended
> no doubt, but some of the things he did were just invitations to
> disaster. Oddly, there were times when doing it correctly would have
> been easier!
>
My wife, who knows nothing about finishing, would scream when Norm finished
some of his products. She just did not understand why he would go to such
trouble to make a nice project out of good wood and paint it with some ugly
color.

<[email protected]> wrote:

> Lew, I laughed so hard at that I almost fell out of my chair. It
> was
> eerie... almost like you were here! I thought I saw you through the
> Nicaraguan smoke for a second...
-------------------------------
Glad you enjoyed it.
---------------------------------

> I am the VP/raffle chairman of our cigar club, and I am in charge of
> our "Cigars for Troops" drive to get quality cigars to our Middle
> Eastern outposts. We met tonight to get things going for our
> November
> meeting to raise funds to send more cigars overseas. Our little
> program isn't original, but is has been a huge success.
------------------------------------
Every little bit helps provide some diversion; however, as a
recovering nicotine addict, not sure I can support the program.
-----------------------------------
> I am still laughing pretty hard while trying to type this out. The
> culprit by the way is an Indian Tabac Double Maduro "Super Fuerte"
> box
> pressed cigar.
---------------------------
Sounds like they get your attention.

-----------------------------
> Lew, you didn't say he was told to allow the BLO to dry. You just
> said it was allowed to dry 4 - 5 days which as you know certainly
> isn't enough time. I don't like BLO on anything but home projects
> as
> it is too hard to control for consistent, professional grade
> results.
>
> Rubbing it around on a project at home is one thing but getting the
> projects finished on a time line means you need something more
> consistent in your finishing arsenal
>
> As a sidebar, BLO on walnut?? Ouch again. Then orange shellac?
> Both
> will amber to the point of yellow, and over a period of time will
> probably obscure the walnut color and grain.
>
> My bad on the shellacking schedule remark as a response to your
> post.
> You did say ONE coat per day. That should be just fine, even it was
> put over BLO (that was allowed to dry ;^) ). With that kind of
> time frame, the cut wouldn't matter.
>
> Oh my....
>
> I know there are some that favor shellac on period pieces, and even
> for authentic coloration of pieces. NEVER have I seen shellac used
> as
> a dining room table top coating.
>
> If it was brushed on (or padded) they would have about the right
> thickness of coating to work for a nice rub out/polish if they
> weren't
> heavy handed in the application. Using 2 - 3# cut, they would get a
> nice coating with that many passes.

> No moving on that one. Personally, I don't like it. Now... I DO
> like
> an undercoat of homemade primer sealer that has shellac, BLO and
> real
> turpentine. That will dry out in a day and you are fine. It also
> doesn't have enough resin in it to amber or yellow quickly.
>
> Hmmmm. The only stuff I have comes from the nearby Sherwin
> Williams.
> I don't believe it has any instructions or recommendations on the
> can. I can't imagine them bothering with that since none of us
> would
> pay attention to it anyway.
>
> In reality, I think I am the only one I know that reads the MSDS
> sheets, the manufacturer's recommendations on application, etc.
-------------------------------------
Simple solution to using BLO in a commercial environment, allow 30 day
curing time and price accordingly.

Stumbled upon BLO when working with some white oak and grew very fond
of the combination, especially when the BLO is cut with turps.

Same with shellac.Keep finding places for it, especially the dewaxed
stuiff.

Found a 1lb cut useful to protect jigs

Having dealt with Sherwin-Williams at corporate headquarters, I just
hold my nose around them.

One of my neighbors was a grain buyer for S-W.

Lew

<[email protected]> wrote:

> Reading some of the gut wrenching letters we get back, you would
indeed.

In rotation on our list, these guys might get 3 cigars a year from
us.

Most of them don't smoke the whole cigar. They LOVE to light them up
and have their picture taken with them in their mouth a la Al Capone
or Groucho Marx. The pics are priceless. The letters of thanks even
more so.

Like you said, just a bit of diversion.

One told me "we are sick of Cheetos and cookies. The cigars kicked
ass".
Personally, I only smoke two to three a week, sometimes one or two
more, sometimes not at all. No more cigs, no more chaw (chew),
nothing else.
-------------------------------------
Can certainly understand the response you get.

Some times you forget what it was like to be a kid with a man's job to
do.

Backed when I smoked, a box of 50 cigars was good for maybe 10 days.

It's been over 30 years, but once an addict, always an addict.

One cigar, no matter how bad, and I would be hooked again.

I'm one of those "hell on wheels" reformed smokers.
------------------------------
> Never dealt with corporate. Just the knotheads they have here
locally. We did get a guy that was a finisher that had gone out of
business here in town as a manager for a while. He was great, but too
good to last. The gave him his own store and he is 100 miles away
now.

Now the guys at the store know only what they read, or what they hear
from conversations with their customers. In other words, not much.

Never was privy to their inner politics or business practices. I buy,
they bill, I pay. That's all I know.
----------------------------------

Remember when they pulled one of the all time bone head moves when
they tried to replace the S-W "Cover The Earth" logo?

Nuf said.

They were not only VERY frugal, but a couple of quarts light about
some things.

Lew

"Swingman" wrote:

> What is amazing is that today I don't have a single acquaintance who
> smokes, and rarely even see anyone smoke; when it wasn't all that
> long ago that it was rare to know someone who didn't, and there were
> cigarette butts everywhere you looked to prove it.
-------------------------------
Remember "No Smoking" sections on airplanes?

When I first came to California in 1990, it was difficult to find a
dedicated "No Smoking" section in a restaurant.

Today, you can't smoke on the beach.

Much of the decline of smoking in public places can be attributed to a
Los Angeles city councilman whose name escapes me at the moment.

He fought the battle singlehanded for many years.

Lew

> Any DIY process will not produce equal results.


Well, sure, stripping the whole piece is the optimum procedure, but
there is a way of achieving excellent results without stripping
everything to bare bones, even assuming the piece is a genuine
antique. I don't think the piece is an antique.

1) Cleaning the piece, thoroughly, is paramount to an refinish, no
matter what age it is. Beyond that, prep the piece, ie., sand it down
properly, after cleaning.

2) Blend the proper color match with whatever is the proper compatible
finish. Test the blend(s) for the color or color match you want.

3) Don't look for an easy way out. Don't skimp on any of the
appropriate procedures for refinishing a "previously finished piece".
If the piece is in horrible shape, then, essentially, stripping it to
bare bones and starting from scratch may be warranted, otherwise, do a
proper prep to refinish it with properly colored and compatible
finish.

BTW, I'd stay away from Minwax stains, for refinishing, especially, a
"previously finished piece", as they have changed their blends and 1)
it takes forever for their stains to dry properly (7 days plus)....
they now contain aliphatic hydrocarbons (parafin), which, also, isn't
2) agreeable with many topcoats, unless specific for even some!!!!
Minwax topcoat products - polycrylic (see above posts re: polycrylics/
polyshades).... i.e., their stains 2.a) aren't compatible with
previous finishes, nor are they 2.b) no longer compatible with many
refinishing topcoats.... *

*Re: 2, 2.a, 2.b - Unless you want to use dewaxed shellac between
applications.

If you want a preferable color toner, I would recommend TransTint dyes
or Old Masters stains, for color correctness, with a compatible
topcoat finish. Many, typical, topcoats don't work well with Minwax's
new blend, because of the parafin.... lots of problems with topcoats
adhereing properly. *Read the labels on Minwax's stain cans and
understand what they are saying, before using these stains, especially
when refinishing a "previously finished piece".

Also, again, lots of folks like and work well/do good work with gell
stains. They do work well, but I, personally, don't like using gel
stains. *Reason: They are like paint, somewhat, in my opinion. I
prefer not to "paint" nice wood or furniture pieces. Though I don't
like them, a gel stain may be a good/reasonable solution to your
specific needs.

Sonny

Clean it well. It likely has an accumulation of dirt, grime, polish/
wax, etc. over the years. If the armoire has been in a nicotine
environment, you will need more than just mild soap & water. Clean
those carved areas really good, also.... use a stiff tooth brush, if
need be, but clean those nooks & crannies.

Lightly sand all areas. You need something for the new finish to
adhere to. Proper prep is essential for good results. I advise:
Don't skimp.

I would use a TransTint dye, to color the new tung oil or whatever
compatible finish is to be applied, and test a few blends to get the
darkness I wanted. Test apply on an inconspicuous area, on the
armoire, for proper color, before committing to the whole project. I
am not a fan of gel stains, so I'll pass on commenting, there.

Sonny

On Nov 6, 10:29=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> As far as stain is concerned, I try to avoid it like the plague, I
> just don't possess the skill or patience to work with it; however,
> have used Wood Kote out of Portland, OR a couple of times.

Dyed shellac is reversible with alcohol if you have second thoughts
after the damage is done. Lay down three or four undyed spit coats
first to prevent dye penetration into the wood. Gives a nicer color
than
stain, a mile deep and rich rather than muddied.

On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 12:07:06 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>SFWIW
>
>This past vweekend, they ran a "Norm Festival" on CREATETV.
>
>One of the episodes featured a black walnut dining table.
>
>It was finished with BLO that was allowed to dry 4-5 days followed by
>10-12 coats of orange shellac, applied one coat per day.
>
>Only the last coat was rubbed out.
>
>Interesting way to get uniformity of color without the hassle of
>stains.
>
>Any of you finishing gurus care to comment?

Shellac would go to hell with the very first strong alcoholic drink
spilled on it, would scratch from most placemats, and would ring from
any cold drink set on it. I think it's a totally bogus finish for a
dining set, with all the wear and abuse they get daily. Feh!

Any colored varnish (oil-based or waterborne) would have accomplished
the same thing without sacrificing durability.

Waterlox that puppy next time! ;)

--
Happiness is not a station you arrive at, but a manner of traveling.
-- Margaret Lee Runbeck

On Nov 9, 12:18 am, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Robert, time out.
>
> That cigar is getting to you.
>
> Please go back and re-read what I wrote.

Lew, I laughed so hard at that I almost fell out of my chair. It was
eerie... almost like you were here! I thought I saw you through the
Nicaraguan smoke for a second...

I am the VP/raffle chairman of our cigar club, and I am in charge of
our "Cigars for Troops" drive to get quality cigars to our Middle
Eastern outposts. We met tonight to get things going for our November
meeting to raise funds to send more cigars overseas. Our little
program isn't original, but is has been a huge success.

But a cigar club meeting requires a good, stiff smoke, right? And my
selection tonight was about as strong as they get.

I am still laughing pretty hard while trying to type this out. The
culprit by the way is an Indian Tabac Double Maduro "Super Fuerte" box
pressed cigar.

> Norm was told to allow the BLO to cure before starting shellac.
>
> I added the 4-5 day cure time (Me bad), maybe it was longer.

Lew, you didn't say he was told to allow the BLO to dry. You just
said it was allowed to dry 4 - 5 days which as you know certainly
isn't enough time. I don't like BLO on anything but home projects as
it is too hard to control for consistent, professional grade results.

Rubbing it around on a project at home is one thing but getting the
projects finished on a time line means you need something more
consistent in your finishing arsenal

As a sidebar, BLO on walnut?? Ouch again. Then orange shellac? Both
will amber to the point of yellow, and over a period of time will
probably obscure the walnut color and grain.

> The shellac was applied one a coat every 24 hours minimum.(They didn't
> say what cut was used)

My bad on the shellacking schedule remark as a response to your post.
You did say ONE coat per day. That should be just fine, even it was
put over BLO (that was allowed to dry ;^) ). With that kind of
time frame, the cut wouldn't matter.

> How much time was allowed after the final coat before rub out was
> undefined.
>
> The orange shellac was not Norm's idea.
>
> The whole BLO, orange shellac process was the brain child of a cabinet
> maker/furniture restorer down in Georgia.

Oh my....

I know there are some that favor shellac on period pieces, and even
for authentic coloration of pieces. NEVER have I seen shellac used as
a dining room table top coating.

If it was brushed on (or padded) they would have about the right
thickness of coating to work for a nice rub out/polish if they weren't
heavy handed in the application. Using 2 - 3# cut, they would get a
nice coating with that many passes.

> BTW, the BLO was cut with mineral spirits.

No moving on that one. Personally, I don't like it. Now... I DO like
an undercoat of homemade primer sealer that has shellac, BLO and real
turpentine. That will dry out in a day and you are fine. It also
doesn't have enough resin in it to amber or yellow quickly.

> They didn't say by how much, but the directions on the can I have
> reads 1 part BLO, 2 parts mineral spirits.

Hmmmm. The only stuff I have comes from the nearby Sherwin Williams.
I don't believe it has any instructions or recommendations on the
can. I can't imagine them bothering with that since none of us would
pay attention to it anyway.

In reality, I think I am the only one I know that reads the MSDS
sheets, the manufacturer's recommendations on application, etc.

> Hope this clarifies things.

> Lew

Well, I stand behind that first bit of silliness about staining over
cured tung oil.

As far as the Norm section of my rant....

I can't stop laughing (literally!) at the cigar remark. That was just
too damn funny. I am still chuckling over here while trying to type.

Thanks for the reply, Lew.

And damnit, it was a mighty fine cigar!

Robert

On Nov 8, 2:07=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> SFWIW
>
> This past vweekend, they ran a "Norm Festival" on CREATETV.
>
> One of the episodes =A0featured a black walnut dining table.
>
> It was finished with BLO that was allowed to dry 4-5 days followed by
> 10-12 coats of orange shellac, applied one coat per day.
>
> Only the last coat was rubbed out.
>
> Interesting way to get uniformity of color without the hassle of
> stains.
>
> Any of you finishing gurus care to comment?
>
> Lew

There is a lot of strange opinions floating around in this thread.
While I may not be a finishing guru, I do get paid to do it, and
haven't ever had a dissatisfied customer.

Cliff notes:

Strip? Yes.

The whole piece? Yes. Unless you like two toned woods.

Stain over a **previously cured** finish whose exact formulation is
unknown? Trying to account for the level of coating deterioration due
to air exposure, age, unknown contaminants, etc., then going forth to
color match? No. I am surprised at the comments.

****************

As for Norm (who has suffered the slings and arrows from everyone I
know that finishes for a living)..... Ouch!!

BLO needs 21 days or more if it is BLO. If it is just Linseed Oil,
you are screwed and should take it off with a good thinner. BAD LO,
BAD!

Shellacking the surface of wet BLO is trouble. Dry to the touch does
not mean dry. It simply means it isn't sticky anymore. BLO must air
cure, and it needs all the air it can get to do it.

A fast buildup of shellac will allow only so much of the shellac to
dry, (no, it won't resolvate correctly either as a monolithic finish)
and the first coats will not outgas properly. Remember, shellac does
not cure, it simply dries up.

The amount of coats isn't the problem, it's the amount of material.
When I spray my hotter than hell conversion lacquer recipe, I can
recoat in 20 minutes. The key to buildup? Lacquer thinner is much
hotter (higher V.O.C.s) than the alcohol based shellac carrier. So it
dries faster. And you put on coats of about 2-3 mil (sprayed) at a
time, lengthening the time between coats as needed. This 2-3 mils
gives you a dried coating finish out of about 1 mils, thin enough to
outgas properly and to resolvate easily.

I usually won't shoot more than 5 - 6 coats a day, aiming for a 3 - 4
mil finish.

I have no doubt that Norm padded or brushed his shellac. That would
probably put him at about 5 - 6 mil at application. This needs time
to set up, and to start outgassing properly. You will know this by
the thumbprint test, not by simple timing. How he got that many coats
on in one day is impossible for me to fathom unless he just slammed it
on. The application thickness is simply too thick.

And that many coats of **orange** shellac? Was he building a toys for
children?

He will be able to see the true results of his work in a few months
when the smooth finish begins to distort because the under coats (and
the BLO) are still working and shrinking.

As far as rubbing out a green finish? Right. No finisher worth his
salt would rub out a finish such as shellac or lacquer in less than 21
days, and would feel safer with 30.

Norm has done a lot of really great stuff. But they should have
brought in a professional finisher to help him out years ago.

I got to the point where I would quit watching the show when he
started his finishing because it was too damn painful. Well intended
no doubt, but some of the things he did were just invitations to
disaster. Oddly, there were times when doing it correctly would have
been easier!

Robert

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> I have an oak armoire that was finished 20 years ago with just Minwax Tung
> Oil (no stain underneath). It
> has not been touched, retouched, reapplied, etc. since then. I'd like to
> give it a dark finish. Can I do this
> without sanding? Can I/should I use gel stain? A few coats of dark tung
> or tung mixed with a dark stain?
>
> There's some carved molding that will nearly impossible to sand, which is
> why I'd like to avoid having to do
> so (in addition to sheer size). Everything I can find online seems to
> assume the tung-oil finish has been
> reapplied over the years or has been applied recently, and I don't know if
> time makes any difference.

Over 20 years the tung oil should be thoroughly cured. Staining try in
an inconspicuous spot and see how it takes, if it looks good do the
whole thing, otherwise you have to either sand it down or go with
something like Polyshades that is really a tinted clear topcoat rather
than a stain.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> J. Clarke wrote:
> ...
>
> > something like Polyshades that is really a tinted clear topcoat rather
> > than a stain.
> ...
>
> Whatever you (OP) do, do _NOT_ use the above...it is a terrible excuse
> for a product.

I agree for most purposes, although it did a nice job of making the
ceiling joists in the basement shop look like something other than the
cheapest construction lumber the contractor could find. Still, if it
won't take stain and can't be stripped and you want it dark, it works.

On Nov 9, 12:39=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:

> ------------------------------------
> Every little bit helps provide some diversion; however, as a
> recovering nicotine addict, not sure I can support the program.
> -----------------------------------

Reading some of the gut wrenching letters we get back, you would
indeed.

In rotation on our list, these guys might get 3 cigars a year from
us.

Most of them don't smoke the whole cigar. They LOVE to light them up
and have their picture taken with them in their mouth a la Al Capone
or Groucho Marx. The pics are priceless. The letters of thanks even
more so.

Like you said, just a bit of diversion.

One told me "we are sick of Cheetos and cookies. The cigars kicked
ass".

Personally, I only smoke two to three a week, sometimes one or two
more, sometimes not at all. No more cigs, no more chaw (chew),
nothing else.

> -------------------------------------

> Having dealt with Sherwin-Williams at corporate headquarters, I just
> hold my nose around them.
>
> One of my neighbors was a grain buyer for S-W.

Never dealt with corporate. Just the knotheads they have here
locally. We did get a guy that was a finisher that had gone out of
business here in town as a manager for a while. He was great, but too
good to last. The gave him his own store and he is 100 miles away
now.

Now the guys at the store know only what they read, or what they hear
from conversations with their customers. In other words, not much.

Never was privy to their inner politics or business practices. I buy,
they bill, I pay. That's all I know.

Robert
(the cigar made me do it!)
*chuckle*

Lew, my last post seemed to be critical of your comments, but that was
not my intention and I appologize if I seemed rude, that way. You did
have a valid points.

Additionally, if I may: Stripping may not be as troubling, these
days, as in the past. For those in the business, they are set up for
stripping large pieces and many of them, in as short of time as
possible. Old stripping techniques was and is a messy and sometimes
tedious job. In some cases, these days, it may not be so bad, nor as
messy, nor as time consuming..... especially for DIYers. In the past,
many folks, including myself, hated the idea of stripping a piece,
also.

Today, there are a few strippers that cleanup with soap and water....
much easier and not as messy a job as with a stripper that requires
mineral spirits cleanup. Don't be dissuaded by the idea of using
water as part of the cleanup process. A little water on wood will not
damage any reasonable wood, but one does have to be careful with
veneers and other laminates. Nor will water, at this stage, affect
subsequent stain or finish applications.

Another idea: Don't look at a stripping job in whole. Viewing the
whole project will sometimes overwhelm you and your plan of attack.
An analogy: When making/building a cabinet from scratch, each small
task is performed, in turn, and before you know it, it is complete.
Attack the stripping task in the same way, i.e., not one big task, but
several small ones. It'll be much more manageable.

For your next anticipated stripping job, try KleanStrip spray
stripper, the soap & water cleanup kind. The spray gets into nooks &
crannies much better than a liquid stripper. It sprays on as a foam
and stays liquid longer than other strippers, hence, it will work for
a longer time, without drying out while you wait for it to work. It
is of good chemical strength for stripping most finishes, without
having to apply multiple/subsequent applications of stripper.

For a chair size project, your work area need be only a scrap half-
sheet of plywood or a large (appliance) cardboard, or something
similar. Tools: Medium to large stiff scrub brush, a small scrub
brush, a roll of paper towels, a hand towel size rag/cloth, a 5 gallon
bucket of dish-soapy water and a handy trash can.

Spray half the "chair", allow ten minutes, then scrub the piece. Once
the finish has been lifted, wipe off the sludge with paper towels,
then alternately wash the piece with the rag/cloth and, if need be,
scrub some areas needing wash-scrubbing. Wash and scrub the piece as
you would your auto tires. Rinse with fresh water. Wipe dry and
spray the remainder of the "chair" and repeat the process. Not
counting the waiting time for the stripper to work, a chair size
project will take 15 minutes to scrub, wash and rinse. Compared to
mineral spirits cleanup, used paper towels won't be so toxic, sludge
won't be so toxic, wash waste overflow onto the driveway, on your lawn
or whereever won't be so toxic, cleanup is a breeze.

For a large furniture piece: For large flat areas, work about a 10 sq
ft area at a time. For intricate areas or turnings/spindles, work 3-5
sq ft at a time.

Sonny

> Any of you finishing gurus care to comment?
>
> Lew

Norm's shop is likely temperature controlled and he/someone may have
made sure the BLO was completely dry. Our cooler temps, these days,
and especially in a non-heated shop, I would recommend, for this time
of year, allowing the BLO to dry maybe at least 2 weeks, to make sure
it is properly dry.

Sonny

On Nov 6, 2:49=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>
>
>
> > J. Clarke wrote:
> > ...
>
> > > something like Polyshades that is really a tinted clear topcoat rathe=
r
> > > than a stain.
> > ...
>
> > Whatever you (OP) do, do _NOT_ use the above...it is a terrible excuse
> > for a product.
>
> I agree for most purposes, although it did a nice job of making the
> ceiling joists in the basement shop look like something other than the
> cheapest construction lumber the contractor could find. =A0Still, if it
> won't take stain and can't be stripped and you want it dark, it works.

So is Watco, which is thinned heavily, which is why it takes
forever to build compared to the 1:1:1 homebrew oil:varnish:solvent
mix. Minwax Antique Oil builds faster. Any of those oil finishes
can be toned with artist's oil paints (earth colors work nicely on
wood), or dyes if you want a more transparent "stain."

J. Clarke wrote:
...

> something like Polyshades that is really a tinted clear topcoat rather
> than a stain.
...

Whatever you (OP) do, do _NOT_ use the above...it is a terrible excuse
for a product.

--

"jmg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Anybody remember the Stain Over Old Paint TV commercials?

--
If your name is No, I voted for you - more than once ...

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:00:31 -0800, "Lobby Dosser"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"jmg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>Anybody remember the Stain Over Old Paint TV commercials?
>
> Is that the one they played, contextually, during Boris Karloff
> flicks?


All I recall is the horse whinnying in the background as they talked about
staining over old paint.

--
If your name is No, I voted for you - more than once ...

On Sat, 06 Nov 2010 15:52:19 +0000,
[email protected] (jmg) wrote:

>I have an oak armoire that was finished 20 years ago with just Minwax Tung
>Oil (no stain underneath). It
>has not been touched, retouched, reapplied, etc. since then. I'd like to
>give it a dark finish. Can I do this
>without sanding? Can I/should I use gel stain? A few coats of dark tung
>or tung mixed with a dark stain?
>


>> Can I do this without sanding?
When applying the new finish, you may first want to clean the piece of
any wax or dirt or residual furniture polish.

I'd sand, lightly. You can use sanding sponges and 3M finishing padsin
places where sandpaper doesn't go.

>> A few coats of dark tung or tung mixed with a dark stain?
What would I do? I'd make test boards with some Minwax Tung Oil, apply
2-3 coats as directed on the can, let it cure for at least a couple of
weeks, then try out some options you are considering.

First I would try the tung mixed with stain. I'd wait on trying the
gel stain.

===

"Tung Oil Finish" is a term used by the finishing industry to refer to
something that gives a result that "looks like" Tung Oil (with some
degree of success). But easier to use.

Minwax Tung oil finish is 65% thinner, 34.x% is a (secret) ratio of
oil and varnish, and 0.2% Cobalt 2-Ethylhexanoate (a finish drier).

The oil *could* be tung oil, but probably is something cheaper, and
they aren't saying what. Often Boiled Linseed Oil (really raw linseed
oil+solvent+drier) but unlike real Tung Oil, BLO will darken over
time, so other oils may be used that don't darken.

A traditional oil/varnish mix is 33% thinner (mineral spirits), 33%
oil, and 33% varnish. This provides a finish that gives more
protection than oil alone, but not as much surface build as a varnish.
It dries somewhat soft and doesn't provide "protection" as a topcoat
finish like varnish does. But many people like it, and you can easily
touch it up as needed.

So, "Minwax Tung Oil finish" is a thinned oil/varnish mix, presumably
to "penetrate deeply", "strengthen the wood" and "protect from inside
the wood".