Hiya Folks,
I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple and
MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then put
plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
This was my first time laminating with plastic
laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the back
edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
Cheers,
cc
Dave, quality countertops are laminated on both sides. You may notice
on the underside of these tops the dark choclate color. If you look
hard you will see this is a very thin lamination of backing paper.
Comes in large rolls, glued with contact cement same as laminate that
shows.
That being said, any good sealer will work,shellac, varnish etc.A
counter top that is only laminated on one side has a great chance of
looking like a banana in a few days.I once installed a L shaped top
like this. I got it flat with clamps and braces from upper
cabinets.Screwed well from bottom, looked good when I was done. Went
back next week to remove and trash tops. The tops pulled the corner
blocking out of the base cabinets.Got a new supplier that day.
mike
James, why do you have to trim the laminate?Reglue the laminate. If you
used contact cement that is solvent based, take it outside, place a
wide blade putty knife under the laminate. Then squirt laquer thinner
under laminate, pry gently with knife. Work the knife and laquer
thinner in until you either remove entire piece or enough to add more
contact onto mdf base and laminate.Pro it open for 20 or 30 minutes or
until cement is dry to the touch.Then roll out . Let excess cement if
there is any dry. Then you can roll most of it off with your hand and
clean remainder with laquer thinner. Laquer thinner and cement are
highly flammable, use precautions.
mike
James, why do you have to trim the laminate?Reglue the laminate. If you
used contact cement that is solvent based, take it outside, place a
wide blade putty knife under the laminate. Then squirt laquer thinner
under laminate, pry gently with knife. Work the knife and laquer
thinner in until you either remove entire piece or enough to add more
contact onto mdf base and laminate.Pro it open for 20 or 30 minutes or
until cement is dry to the touch.Then roll out . Let excess cement if
there is any dry. Then you can roll most of it off with your hand and
clean remainder with laquer thinner. Laquer thinner and cement are
highly flammable, use precautions.
mike
Well I have workled a lot with MDF, both for desks, etc and for
models. As MDF is recostituted pulp, basically it acts differently to
'real' wood. Moistures, even in the atnostphere does affect it. Even
when painting the MDF toys I have made they absorb the paint unless i
have sealed the wood. I dont NOTICE any difference, but the moisture
HAS to go somewhere and swelling would seem logical.
In your case i would look to trying ot get a dehumidifier into teh
room wheile you investigate, while the laundry isnt being done, and
then removing the venir, seal the entire unit in special MDF sealing
varnish, paying special attention ot any worked edges/bevels. At
least 2 coats and then reapply your venir finish.
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:31:29 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hiya Folks,
>I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple and
>MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then put
>plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
>This was my first time laminating with plastic
>laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the back
>edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
>thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
>Cheers,
>cc
>
I thought of that as well but no, the table has not seen any spills nor did
it during construction.
Being the first time putting laminate down, I'm a bit leery that it was
something I didn't do correct
but can't figure out what.
Cheers,
cc
"Cherokee-LTD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm no expert on these matters but I'll take a stab at it...
> Is there any chance something spilled between the lam and the maple? I
> don't
> think MDF is conducive to warping etc. but it's very sensitive to moisture
> and will swell.
>
> -Brian
>
> "James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> : Hiya Folks,
> : I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple and
> : MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
> : stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then
> put
> : plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
> : purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
> : This was my first time laminating with plastic
> : laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
> back
> : edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
> : table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
> : thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
> : for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
> : lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
> : Cheers,
> : cc
> :
> :
>
>
Did you laminate the bottom of the MDF?
When you lay up ply or any surface for laminating you need to do top. Bottom
and the edges or the piece absorbs moisture from the exposed areas.
max
> Hiya Folks,
> I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple and
> MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
> stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then put
> plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
> purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
> This was my first time laminating with plastic
> laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the back
> edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
> table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
> thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
> for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
> lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
> Cheers,
> cc
>
>
Yeah, Just replied to Dave up above. Looks like my gluing of the laminate
was the culprit. I used the water based contact cement but didn't realize
I had to
put a coat on the laminate as well.
Thanks much for the help!
Cheers,
cc
"makesawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> James \Cubby\ Culbertson Wrote:
>> Hiya Folks,
>> I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple
>> and
>> MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>> stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then
>> put
>> plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>> purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
>> This was my first time laminating with plastic
>> laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
>> back
>> edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>> table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
>> thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>> for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>> lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
>> Cheers,
>> cc
>
>
> Hi James,
>
> MDF is pretty darn stable due to the fact that it is composed of
> sawdust (no grain) and that the glue that binds it together is more or
> less resistant to moisture (but not waterproof).
>
> The problem with the laminate lifting near an edge probably had more to
> do with your laminating technique. I'm going to guess that either you
> did not get a sufficient coat of adhesive on either the laminate or the
> substrate, or you had a wet patch of adhesive (too much adhesive in one
> spot/too thick of a coat in a spot) and the contact adhesive didn't
> work properly.
>
> You might be able to fix the problem with some Gorilla glue carefully
> squeezed into the void and some clamps.
>
> Are you using solvent-based contact adhesive or a water-based adhesive?
> I personally prefer the water-based product as it is easier to clean up
> and doesn't leave you with a raging headache.
>
> Good luck.
>
>
> --
> makesawdust
Since you say this was your first time using plastic laminate and you are
also asking about the prospect of re-gluing I am curious as to how you
attached the laminate to the MDF. The adhesive of choice is contact cement
but that should make re-gluing a non-issue. Did you use liquid nails or
something other than contact cement? If so, that may be the problem, not
moisture or the MDF.
Lee
--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"
Dave Jackson wrote:
> John,
> <snip> A big drum of lacquer thinners is the best ticket
>
> I've always used solvent based CC and cleaned up with laquer thinner, but he
> mentioned using water based CC on this project. I'm thinking the laquer
> thinner may not work very well on the water based CC, simply because
> chemistry teaches that likes dissolve likes. Any experience removing water
> based CC with laquer thinner? Just curious if it works as well as on solvent
> based. --dave
Dave,
that'll teach me to read things properly. I missed the bit about water
based contact. (I've never heard of it) And after all the effort I put
into that masterful essay on laminating :(. To be quite honest I don't
know if it would dissolve with thinners or not. Would be worth a go
though as Water based acrylics can be washed of with thinners.
John
>
>
> "John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hiya Dave,
>>>Yeah I got to thinking more about it and realized, I've never seen
>>>laminated tables
>>>with laminate on the underside.
>>>Your comments about the glue was where I was headed next. I put down
>>>one
>>>real thick coat on the MDF and no cement on the laminate. Didn't realize
>>>I needed
>>>to. I'll bet that's what's going on there.
>>>Now, how to remove and replace it. I may have to scrap the maple edging
>>>and
>>>just peel it off as best I can and re-glue another piece on there. Is
>>>there anything I
>>>need to do to the MDF before re-cementing? Thanks for the help!
>>>Cheers,
>>>cc
>>>
>>>"Dave Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>It is NOT necessary to laminate both sides, in fact, even suggesting that
>>>>in this case is just crazy. If you think about all the manufactured
>>>>laminate kitchen countertops in this country, NONE are laminated on both
>>>>sides. More than likely, the bond between the laminate and the MDF
>>>>failed. Did you put two coats of contact cement on the MDF? One coat is
>>>>just not enough to provide good adhesion as the first coat is mostly
>>>>absorbed by the substrate. However, one good coat on the laminate is
>>>>usually sufficient. Also, make sure the contact cement is not wet when
>>>>you adhere the laminate, it should be slightly tacky, but not wet, or it
>>>>won't stick. Once joined, roll the hell out of the thing with a good j
>>>>roller starting from the middle and working out. --dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>About five years ago, I made a frame for an air mattress(high end, not
>>>>>camping type). The entire frame and six large drawers are made from MDF
>>>>>covered with plastic laminate. Only one side is laminated and looks as
>>>>>good
>>>>>now as it did when new.
>>>>>
>>>>>"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Seems we may have found the problem. I only laminated the top of the
>>>>>
>>>>>MDF.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Didn't realize I needed to do the bottom and sides as well. Thanks
>>>>>>for
>>>>>>the help!
>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>cc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hiya Folks,
>>>>>>>I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>>>>>>>stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then
>>>>>
>>>>>put
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>>>>>>>purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
>>>>>>>This was my first time laminating with plastic
>>>>>>>laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
>>>>>>>back edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>>>>>>>table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
>>>>>>>thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>>>>>>>for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>>>>>>>lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>cc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>A big drum of lacquer thinners is the best ticket.
>>I have removed a lot of laminates over the years and have found the
>>following to be the best.
>>If you want to use the existing laminate again.
>>Carefully pry up a corner with a flat knife (I use a Putty Knife)
>>Fill a plastic sauce bottle with thinner and squirt a bit into the gap.
>>As the laminate lifts slowly insert the knife and cut away any adhesive.
>>Squirt more thinners in the now bigger gap and keep on going.
>>Once the laminate has been removed wash the glued side down with thinners
>>and leave it a couple of days to dry.
>>Using a belt sander or a random orbital with atleast 80g paper give the
>>mdf a good sanding. You do not have to remove all of the contact but it
>>should be SMOOTH. Also give the underside of the laminate a sanding until
>>it to is smooth.
>>Apply contact evenly to both the laminate and the mdf and leave until it
>>wont stick to the back of you hand when you touch it.
>>Now for the tricky part, Aligning the two pieces.
>>Get yourself some 3/8" dowels or thin pieces of timber wider than the top.
>>Lay them across the top about 6 - 8" apart.
>>Lay your laminate on top of these rods.
>>A line one corner and edge, and press gently together.
>>Remove the rod closes to this join and press the two faces together. Carry
>>on up the length removing each rod as you come to it.
>>All things being equal, the laminate and mdf should now be in position.
>>Use a roller if you have one to press the two surfaces together If not, a
>>block of timber wrapped in a rag, place on top of the laminate and belt
>>the hell out of it, moving it slowly around until the whole surface has
>>had a good hiding. Pay particular attention to the edges.
>>Before you replace the timber edges it always a good idea to coat the
>>edges of the top with a layer of contact. This helps to water proof the
>>edges.
>>hope you can make some sense out of this :)
>>Good luck
>>John
>
>
>
About five years ago, I made a frame for an air mattress(high end, not
camping type). The entire frame and six large drawers are made from MDF
covered with plastic laminate. Only one side is laminated and looks as good
now as it did when new.
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Seems we may have found the problem. I only laminated the top of the
MDF.
> Didn't realize I needed to do the bottom and sides as well. Thanks for
> the help!
> Cheers,
> cc
>
> "James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hiya Folks,
> > I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple and
> > MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
> > stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then
put
> > plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
> > purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
> > This was my first time laminating with plastic
> > laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
> > back edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
> > table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
> > thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
> > for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
> > lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
> > Cheers,
> > cc
> >
> >
>
>
Well, removing the laminate may prove to be futile at this point. I would
suggest flipping the top over and laminate the backside (just for the sake
of reusing what you already have made.) if possible. If not, hopefully you
have enough laminate and MDF laying around to construct a new top. --dave
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya Dave,
> Yeah I got to thinking more about it and realized, I've never seen
> laminated tables
> with laminate on the underside.
> Your comments about the glue was where I was headed next. I put down one
> real thick coat on the MDF and no cement on the laminate. Didn't realize
> I needed
> to. I'll bet that's what's going on there.
> Now, how to remove and replace it. I may have to scrap the maple edging
> and
> just peel it off as best I can and re-glue another piece on there. Is
> there anything I
> need to do to the MDF before re-cementing? Thanks for the help!
> Cheers,
> cc
>
> "Dave Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> It is NOT necessary to laminate both sides, in fact, even suggesting that
>> in this case is just crazy. If you think about all the manufactured
>> laminate kitchen countertops in this country, NONE are laminated on both
>> sides. More than likely, the bond between the laminate and the MDF
>> failed. Did you put two coats of contact cement on the MDF? One coat is
>> just not enough to provide good adhesion as the first coat is mostly
>> absorbed by the substrate. However, one good coat on the laminate is
>> usually sufficient. Also, make sure the contact cement is not wet when
>> you adhere the laminate, it should be slightly tacky, but not wet, or it
>> won't stick. Once joined, roll the hell out of the thing with a good j
>> roller starting from the middle and working out. --dave
>>
>>
>> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> About five years ago, I made a frame for an air mattress(high end, not
>>> camping type). The entire frame and six large drawers are made from MDF
>>> covered with plastic laminate. Only one side is laminated and looks as
>>> good
>>> now as it did when new.
>>>
>>> "James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Seems we may have found the problem. I only laminated the top of the
>>> MDF.
>>>> Didn't realize I needed to do the bottom and sides as well. Thanks
>>>> for
>>>> the help!
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> cc
>>>>
>>>> "James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> > Hiya Folks,
>>>> > I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple
>>>> > and
>>>> > MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>>>> > stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I
>>>> > then
>>> put
>>>> > plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>>>> > purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out
>>>> > stock.
>>>> > This was my first time laminating with plastic
>>>> > laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at
>>>> > the
>>>> > back edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>>>> > table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm
>>>> > now
>>>> > thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>>>> > for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>>>> > lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
>>>> > Cheers,
>>>> > cc
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Hiya Dave,
Yeah I got to thinking more about it and realized, I've never seen laminated
tables
with laminate on the underside.
Your comments about the glue was where I was headed next. I put down one
real thick coat on the MDF and no cement on the laminate. Didn't realize I
needed
to. I'll bet that's what's going on there.
Now, how to remove and replace it. I may have to scrap the maple edging
and
just peel it off as best I can and re-glue another piece on there. Is
there anything I
need to do to the MDF before re-cementing? Thanks for the help!
Cheers,
cc
"Dave Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It is NOT necessary to laminate both sides, in fact, even suggesting that
> in this case is just crazy. If you think about all the manufactured
> laminate kitchen countertops in this country, NONE are laminated on both
> sides. More than likely, the bond between the laminate and the MDF failed.
> Did you put two coats of contact cement on the MDF? One coat is just not
> enough to provide good adhesion as the first coat is mostly absorbed by
> the substrate. However, one good coat on the laminate is usually
> sufficient. Also, make sure the contact cement is not wet when you adhere
> the laminate, it should be slightly tacky, but not wet, or it won't stick.
> Once joined, roll the hell out of the thing with a good j roller starting
> from the middle and working out. --dave
>
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> About five years ago, I made a frame for an air mattress(high end, not
>> camping type). The entire frame and six large drawers are made from MDF
>> covered with plastic laminate. Only one side is laminated and looks as
>> good
>> now as it did when new.
>>
>> "James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Seems we may have found the problem. I only laminated the top of the
>> MDF.
>>> Didn't realize I needed to do the bottom and sides as well. Thanks
>>> for
>>> the help!
>>> Cheers,
>>> cc
>>>
>>> "James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>> > Hiya Folks,
>>> > I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple
>>> > and
>>> > MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>>> > stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then
>> put
>>> > plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>>> > purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
>>> > This was my first time laminating with plastic
>>> > laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
>>> > back edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>>> > table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
>>> > thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>>> > for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>>> > lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > cc
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
John,
<snip> A big drum of lacquer thinners is the best ticket
I've always used solvent based CC and cleaned up with laquer thinner, but he
mentioned using water based CC on this project. I'm thinking the laquer
thinner may not work very well on the water based CC, simply because
chemistry teaches that likes dissolve likes. Any experience removing water
based CC with laquer thinner? Just curious if it works as well as on solvent
based. --dave
"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
>
>> Hiya Dave,
>> Yeah I got to thinking more about it and realized, I've never seen
>> laminated tables
>> with laminate on the underside.
>> Your comments about the glue was where I was headed next. I put down
>> one
>> real thick coat on the MDF and no cement on the laminate. Didn't realize
>> I needed
>> to. I'll bet that's what's going on there.
>> Now, how to remove and replace it. I may have to scrap the maple edging
>> and
>> just peel it off as best I can and re-glue another piece on there. Is
>> there anything I
>> need to do to the MDF before re-cementing? Thanks for the help!
>> Cheers,
>> cc
>>
>> "Dave Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>It is NOT necessary to laminate both sides, in fact, even suggesting that
>>>in this case is just crazy. If you think about all the manufactured
>>>laminate kitchen countertops in this country, NONE are laminated on both
>>>sides. More than likely, the bond between the laminate and the MDF
>>>failed. Did you put two coats of contact cement on the MDF? One coat is
>>>just not enough to provide good adhesion as the first coat is mostly
>>>absorbed by the substrate. However, one good coat on the laminate is
>>>usually sufficient. Also, make sure the contact cement is not wet when
>>>you adhere the laminate, it should be slightly tacky, but not wet, or it
>>>won't stick. Once joined, roll the hell out of the thing with a good j
>>>roller starting from the middle and working out. --dave
>>>
>>>
>>>"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>About five years ago, I made a frame for an air mattress(high end, not
>>>>camping type). The entire frame and six large drawers are made from MDF
>>>>covered with plastic laminate. Only one side is laminated and looks as
>>>>good
>>>>now as it did when new.
>>>>
>>>>"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>>Seems we may have found the problem. I only laminated the top of the
>>>>
>>>>MDF.
>>>>
>>>>>Didn't realize I needed to do the bottom and sides as well. Thanks
>>>>>for
>>>>>the help!
>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>cc
>>>>>
>>>>>"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hiya Folks,
>>>>>>I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>>>>>>stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then
>>>>
>>>>put
>>>>
>>>>>>plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>>>>>>purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
>>>>>>This was my first time laminating with plastic
>>>>>>laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
>>>>>>back edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>>>>>>table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
>>>>>>thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>>>>>>for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>>>>>>lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>cc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> A big drum of lacquer thinners is the best ticket.
> I have removed a lot of laminates over the years and have found the
> following to be the best.
> If you want to use the existing laminate again.
> Carefully pry up a corner with a flat knife (I use a Putty Knife)
> Fill a plastic sauce bottle with thinner and squirt a bit into the gap.
> As the laminate lifts slowly insert the knife and cut away any adhesive.
> Squirt more thinners in the now bigger gap and keep on going.
> Once the laminate has been removed wash the glued side down with thinners
> and leave it a couple of days to dry.
> Using a belt sander or a random orbital with atleast 80g paper give the
> mdf a good sanding. You do not have to remove all of the contact but it
> should be SMOOTH. Also give the underside of the laminate a sanding until
> it to is smooth.
> Apply contact evenly to both the laminate and the mdf and leave until it
> wont stick to the back of you hand when you touch it.
> Now for the tricky part, Aligning the two pieces.
> Get yourself some 3/8" dowels or thin pieces of timber wider than the top.
> Lay them across the top about 6 - 8" apart.
> Lay your laminate on top of these rods.
> A line one corner and edge, and press gently together.
> Remove the rod closes to this join and press the two faces together. Carry
> on up the length removing each rod as you come to it.
> All things being equal, the laminate and mdf should now be in position.
> Use a roller if you have one to press the two surfaces together If not, a
> block of timber wrapped in a rag, place on top of the laminate and belt
> the hell out of it, moving it slowly around until the whole surface has
> had a good hiding. Pay particular attention to the edges.
> Before you replace the timber edges it always a good idea to coat the
> edges of the top with a layer of contact. This helps to water proof the
> edges.
> hope you can make some sense out of this :)
> Good luck
> John
James,
Two or three key points . . .
1) You said 'laundry room'. Toward the end of your comments you said, "
. . . lift/buckle . . " This seems to point to a POSSIBLE cause. MDF is
basically paper dust & glue. Heavy, relatively hard, stable {NO 'GRAIN'}
. . . as long as it is DRY. Depending on the humidity of your 'laundry
room', or if some wet items were placed on the table, there is the
possibility that water/moisture was trapped between the wood edging and
the MDF. Over time it saturated and the MDF deteriorated. Maybe only the
top surface, which lost integrity and separated along with the laminate.
2} Another possibility - the same type of 'error' that happens with a
'cheap' artwork framing job. MDF is stable, but 'tensions' caused by the
different expansion/contraction rate of the laminate are tremendous. If
you put the laminate ONLY on the TOP - the very slight movement of the
MDF {again, due to moisture absorption from the atmosphere - via the
bottom side} will be greater than the strength of the adhesive. WHATEVER
you do to the TOP you have to do to the BOTTOM. There is even a type of
'blank' laminate specifically for this. In the case of artwork attached
to 'Foamcore' board . . . if a large photo, or paper print is attached
to the front . . . an equal size piece of paper must be attached to the
back. If not the board will actually BOW and pop out of the frame. This
will simply be due to the difference in humidity between the summer and
winter.
Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
----- Original Message -----
From: "James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]>
Subject: Does MDF Move?
> Hiya Folks,
> I built a little table a while back for our laundry room . . .
SNIP
> I used the MDF for the top. I then put plastic laminate on the MDF
. . .
SNIP
> the laminate appears to be buckling at the back edge. . . .why did
it lift/buckle?
It is NOT necessary to laminate both sides, in fact, even suggesting that in
this case is just crazy. If you think about all the manufactured laminate
kitchen countertops in this country, NONE are laminated on both sides. More
than likely, the bond between the laminate and the MDF failed. Did you put
two coats of contact cement on the MDF? One coat is just not enough to
provide good adhesion as the first coat is mostly absorbed by the substrate.
However, one good coat on the laminate is usually sufficient. Also, make
sure the contact cement is not wet when you adhere the laminate, it should
be slightly tacky, but not wet, or it won't stick. Once joined, roll the
hell out of the thing with a good j roller starting from the middle and
working out. --dave
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> About five years ago, I made a frame for an air mattress(high end, not
> camping type). The entire frame and six large drawers are made from MDF
> covered with plastic laminate. Only one side is laminated and looks as
> good
> now as it did when new.
>
> "James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Seems we may have found the problem. I only laminated the top of the
> MDF.
>> Didn't realize I needed to do the bottom and sides as well. Thanks for
>> the help!
>> Cheers,
>> cc
>>
>> "James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Hiya Folks,
>> > I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple
>> > and
>> > MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>> > stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then
> put
>> > plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>> > purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
>> > This was my first time laminating with plastic
>> > laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
>> > back edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>> > table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
>> > thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>> > for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>> > lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
>> > Cheers,
>> > cc
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
James \Cubby\ Culbertson Wrote:
> Hiya Folks,
> I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Mapl
> and
> MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
> stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I the
> put
> plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
> purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
> This was my first time laminating with plastic
> laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at th
> back
> edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
> table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
> thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
> for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
> lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
> Cheers,
> cc
Hi James,
MDF is pretty darn stable due to the fact that it is composed o
sawdust (no grain) and that the glue that binds it together is more o
less resistant to moisture (but not waterproof).
The problem with the laminate lifting near an edge probably had more t
do with your laminating technique. I'm going to guess that either yo
did not get a sufficient coat of adhesive on either the laminate or th
substrate, or you had a wet patch of adhesive (too much adhesive in on
spot/too thick of a coat in a spot) and the contact adhesive didn'
work properly.
You might be able to fix the problem with some Gorilla glue carefull
squeezed into the void and some clamps.
Are you using solvent-based contact adhesive or a water-based adhesive
I personally prefer the water-based product as it is easier to clean u
and doesn't leave you with a raging headache.
Good luck
--
makesawdust
Thanks folks for all the great help!
I found the can of the glue that I used and it looks like it is in fact
solvent based, not water
based as I remembered. I remember debating a lot on which one to use and
finally broke
down and used the solvent based. It is Hybond 80 Plus. Anyway, got to
looking at the table
a bit more and realized it's not just the edge that's lifting. I can feel
pockets other areas that are
lifting as well so the diagnosis that the glue up was the culprit appears to
be correct. With the
advice of how to remove it, I think I can get the old off and re-do this
thing. I'd really like to
do this as this was my first project that I did all the mortise/tenons/box
joints, etc... by hand. It
was actually a lot of fun chopping mortises with a mallet and chisel (not so
fun in Hard Maple though!)
and I'd hate to have to completely remake the top. I'll give it a try to
remove the top and re-glue it.
Thanks again folks for the help. Great to know this group has so many good
inputs!
Cheers,
cc
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 23:31:00 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hiya Dave,
>Yeah I got to thinking more about it and realized, I've never seen laminated
>tables
>with laminate on the underside.
>Your comments about the glue was where I was headed next. I put down one
>real thick coat on the MDF and no cement on the laminate. Didn't realize I
>needed
>to. I'll bet that's what's going on there.
>Now, how to remove and replace it. I may have to scrap the maple edging
>and
>just peel it off as best I can and re-glue another piece on there. Is
>there anything I
>need to do to the MDF before re-cementing? Thanks for the help!
James, try this link for a general 'primer' (pardon the pun), noting
the first eight words <g>
http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/contact1.shtml
I use thin dowels - 3 mm diameter - as spacers, and pull them out one
at a time, this lets me position it perfectly.
Greg
Yes, I'll agree with the others on the glue issue. While most "higher-end"
tables do have the bottom surface covered, it's not at all the same issue with
plastic as with a wood laminate or veneer. With a wood veneer on top of the
MDF, its expansion/contraction will cause considerable stress on the top
surface, and needs to be balanced with the same on the bottom. Obviously,
plastic laminate doesn't have this issue.
As mentioned, make sure there's a thin coating of contact cement remaining on
both surfaces before putting it together. Also as mentioned, the MDF will
often absorb most of the first coating of cement. Do not, however, try to get
really thick with the contact cement, or you will weaken the joint.
Although the edges of MDF are more porous, normally wood edging is enough. In
a laundry, however, I'd seal the edges. Finally, again due to the laundry, I'd
also seal the underside with shellac. I've done that in both the kitchen and
laundry cabinets and counters. It not only reduces moisture absorbed from the
air, but will make it much easier to clean up from any inadvertant spills.
GerryG
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:20:58 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Thanks folks for all the great help!
>I found the can of the glue that I used and it looks like it is in fact
>solvent based, not water
>based as I remembered. I remember debating a lot on which one to use and
>finally broke
>down and used the solvent based. It is Hybond 80 Plus. Anyway, got to
>looking at the table
>a bit more and realized it's not just the edge that's lifting. I can feel
>pockets other areas that are
>lifting as well so the diagnosis that the glue up was the culprit appears to
>be correct. With the
>advice of how to remove it, I think I can get the old off and re-do this
>thing. I'd really like to
>do this as this was my first project that I did all the mortise/tenons/box
>joints, etc... by hand. It
>was actually a lot of fun chopping mortises with a mallet and chisel (not so
>fun in Hard Maple though!)
>and I'd hate to have to completely remake the top. I'll give it a try to
>remove the top and re-glue it.
>Thanks again folks for the help. Great to know this group has so many good
>inputs!
>Cheers,
>cc
>
No. MDF, like any wood product, will expand/contract with moisture
content changes. MDF and ply are considered "stable" in that they
don't move as much as solid wood. Soak any wood product in water or
stream, and it will swell, buckle, crack, or fall apart. The edges of
the MDF should be trimmed with wood and/or sealed with varnish,
shellac, paint, or urethane. It's my guess there was some kind of a
water spill on the MDF.
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:31:29 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hiya Folks,
>I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple and
>MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then put
>plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
>This was my first time laminating with plastic
>laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the back
>edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
>thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
>Cheers,
>cc
>
Seems we may have found the problem. I only laminated the top of the MDF.
Didn't realize I needed to do the bottom and sides as well. Thanks for
the help!
Cheers,
cc
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya Folks,
> I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple and
> MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
> stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then put
> plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
> purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
> This was my first time laminating with plastic
> laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
> back edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
> table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
> thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
> for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
> lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
> Cheers,
> cc
>
>
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:31:29 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hiya Folks,
>I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple and
>MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then put
>plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
>This was my first time laminating with plastic
>laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the back
>edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
>thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
What do you think might happen if you poured water onto the edge of
your MDF? If not sure, take a small piece and give it a try. Let the
water sit a while.
I'm no expert on these matters but I'll take a stab at it...
Is there any chance something spilled between the lam and the maple? I don't
think MDF is conducive to warping etc. but it's very sensitive to moisture
and will swell.
-Brian
"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
: Hiya Folks,
: I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple and
: MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
: stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then put
: plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
: purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
: This was my first time laminating with plastic
: laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
back
: edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
: table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
: thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
: for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
: lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
: Cheers,
: cc
:
:
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
> Hiya Dave,
> Yeah I got to thinking more about it and realized, I've never seen laminated
> tables
> with laminate on the underside.
> Your comments about the glue was where I was headed next. I put down one
> real thick coat on the MDF and no cement on the laminate. Didn't realize I
> needed
> to. I'll bet that's what's going on there.
> Now, how to remove and replace it. I may have to scrap the maple edging
> and
> just peel it off as best I can and re-glue another piece on there. Is
> there anything I
> need to do to the MDF before re-cementing? Thanks for the help!
> Cheers,
> cc
>
> "Dave Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>It is NOT necessary to laminate both sides, in fact, even suggesting that
>>in this case is just crazy. If you think about all the manufactured
>>laminate kitchen countertops in this country, NONE are laminated on both
>>sides. More than likely, the bond between the laminate and the MDF failed.
>>Did you put two coats of contact cement on the MDF? One coat is just not
>>enough to provide good adhesion as the first coat is mostly absorbed by
>>the substrate. However, one good coat on the laminate is usually
>>sufficient. Also, make sure the contact cement is not wet when you adhere
>>the laminate, it should be slightly tacky, but not wet, or it won't stick.
>>Once joined, roll the hell out of the thing with a good j roller starting
>>from the middle and working out. --dave
>>
>>
>>"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>About five years ago, I made a frame for an air mattress(high end, not
>>>camping type). The entire frame and six large drawers are made from MDF
>>>covered with plastic laminate. Only one side is laminated and looks as
>>>good
>>>now as it did when new.
>>>
>>>"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>Seems we may have found the problem. I only laminated the top of the
>>>
>>>MDF.
>>>
>>>>Didn't realize I needed to do the bottom and sides as well. Thanks
>>>>for
>>>>the help!
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>cc
>>>>
>>>>"James "Cubby" Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>>Hiya Folks,
>>>>>I built a little table a while back for our laundry room using Maple
>>>>>and
>>>>>MDF. I basically used the Maple for the legs,
>>>>>stretchers, rails, and drawers. I used the MDF for the top. I then
>>>
>>>put
>>>
>>>>>plastic laminate on the MDF given it's utilitarian
>>>>>purpose and the fact that I got a great price on some close-out stock.
>>>>>This was my first time laminating with plastic
>>>>>laminate. 9 months later, the laminate appears to be buckling at the
>>>>>back edge. I should also say I ran maple edging around the
>>>>>table to enclose the laminate (ie. flush with the laminate). I'm now
>>>>>thinking I need to trim the laminate and re-glue it but that's
>>>>>for another day. My biggest question at the moment is why did it
>>>>>lift/buckle? I thought MDF stayed constant in it's size?
>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>cc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
A big drum of lacquer thinners is the best ticket.
I have removed a lot of laminates over the years and have found the
following to be the best.
If you want to use the existing laminate again.
Carefully pry up a corner with a flat knife (I use a Putty Knife)
Fill a plastic sauce bottle with thinner and squirt a bit into the gap.
As the laminate lifts slowly insert the knife and cut away any adhesive.
Squirt more thinners in the now bigger gap and keep on going.
Once the laminate has been removed wash the glued side down with
thinners and leave it a couple of days to dry.
Using a belt sander or a random orbital with atleast 80g paper give the
mdf a good sanding. You do not have to remove all of the contact but it
should be SMOOTH. Also give the underside of the laminate a sanding
until it to is smooth.
Apply contact evenly to both the laminate and the mdf and leave until it
wont stick to the back of you hand when you touch it.
Now for the tricky part, Aligning the two pieces.
Get yourself some 3/8" dowels or thin pieces of timber wider than the top.
Lay them across the top about 6 - 8" apart.
Lay your laminate on top of these rods.
A line one corner and edge, and press gently together.
Remove the rod closes to this join and press the two faces together.
Carry on up the length removing each rod as you come to it.
All things being equal, the laminate and mdf should now be in position.
Use a roller if you have one to press the two surfaces together If not,
a block of timber wrapped in a rag, place on top of the laminate and
belt the hell out of it, moving it slowly around until the whole surface
has had a good hiding. Pay particular attention to the edges.
Before you replace the timber edges it always a good idea to coat the
edges of the top with a layer of contact. This helps to water proof the
edges.
hope you can make some sense out of this :)
Good luck
John