Advice needed on type of plane to trim 3/4" red oak with the grain

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "Dick Snyder"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Speaking of sharpening, I have done a little research on this too and have
>some more questions.

Yeah, well do about a dozen years research on it and then you'll be
_really_ confused over the options !

> I see devices to hold the steel blade for sharpening,

Don't like them. They don't fit chisels, they don't fit wide plane
irons, the ones with narrow rollers groove the stones. The Veritas one
is about the best.

>another device to hold it at a different angle for honing,

Honing is still at the same angle. The small shift to a steeper angle
is putting a "micro-bevel" onto it. This is a rather bad habit to get
into - it's useful, but makes sharpening at the real angle much
harder, if over-done. You're better learning to do a good job with a
single angle before you try.

For a plane iron on a flat stone, then you can quite easily "feel" the
angle and when you're holding the iron at the right angle. A cheap
brass angle gauge will allow you to measure what this is, and whether
it's right (a major chore in refurbing old planes).

You don't much care about the angle anyway. Get it vaguely right, then
worry about getting it flat and consistent. The wrong angle, done
well, will work pretty well for you.

As to the stone itself, then the favourites round here are Scary
Sharp, waterstones and maybe diamond stones.

Scary Sharp is quick and uses cheap materials.

Waterstones are a really good method, but a little fussy for a quick
touch up on one tool. They work better on harder steels, which is nice
for Japanese tools or A2.

Diamond stones are expensive and need as much care in looking after as
waterstones. The cheap ones aren't much good.

Leonard Lee's sharpening book is a great investment.

Dick Snyder wrote:
> ...
>
> I need to remove a small amount of trim (up to 1/8" in a couple of
cases -
> usually less than that). ... Can you either point me at a good
on-line
> resource so I can read about this or can you give some advice based
on your
> own experience?
>

The practice of removing small amounts of material to make pieces fit
is called 'blocking in' and the tool commonly used is the block plane.

Stanley manufactured an enormous variety of block planes, some of
the best are still made by Stanley, with Record and others making
knock-offs while Lee Valley and Lie Neilsen have somewhat improved
designs derivative from the Stanley designs. The fanciest have an a
djustable mouth and fine adjustments for the depth of cut and skew
of the blade. All three of those features are useful.

If you can find an old Stanley, as at an antique store the quality
will probably be better than any but the most expensive ones made
today.

Here is a guide to Stanley planes, there were serveral series
of block planes but the 9 1/2 and 65 are the ones still
made by Stanley though they no longer use those model numbers
and I think the new 65s have a skew adjustment not shown on the
webpages.

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html

Lee Valley and Lie Neilsen (Nielsen?) have their won webpages.

Simpler less expspensive models without the fine adjustments
will get the job done, but I recommend getting one with those
as they'll save you a lot of time and frustration fettling
it.

Personally, I prefer the lever caps that use a knurled screw to
clamp down the blade as I can slightly loosen it befor adjusting.
The 'snail lever' and other quick release caps save 2 - 3 seconds
when removing the blade for honing which, in my view is a silly
time to worry about saving a second or two compared to making
it easier to adjust during use. Clearly this is a minority
opinion, though.

After using a block plane, there will be no going back. Befor
long when you get a tool catalog in the mail you'll flip past
the powah tools and rowtah bits to get to the hand tools section,
scan the pictures and then say to yourself, they sure don't
make them like they used to.

Good luck.

--

FF

Dick Snyder wrote:
> I replied to this message with a further question about sharpening.
> Subsequent to doing that I found a good web resource that answered my

> question so I don't need any replies. I'm sorry I couldn't find this
sooner
> so I wouldn't waste people's time replying to my question.
>
>
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/furniture/1273096.html?page=1&c=y
>

Two comments on that article.

1) For good results you should hone finer that 1000 grit especially for
a place blade. 1000 grit will be OK for a scrubplane but cutters
for smoothing planes will more often be honed down to an 8,000
grti waterstone.

2) The specialized equipment needed to sharpen a saw is a trangular
file.
After a few sharpenings the teeh will need to be jointed, which
requires a medium bastard file and a holder--the holder can just
be a piece of rabbeted wood. And the teeth will need to be reset
which is done with a sawset, typically $5 to $10 at an antique
store.



> Dick Snyder
> "AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:wNLUd.19$Ke.6@fed1read03...
> >
> > I mulled over this descision for quite a while, constantly looking
> > at low angle block planes for a few months. I discovered all
options
> > and prices, small and large, eBay is always loaded with them from
> > all makers but to get a decent Stanley 60 1/2 used is too much con-
> > sidering the condition, lots of japanning chipped off, and "just
old",
> > you might need a new $30 blade as well so why pay $50-$60 for
> > that plane, after all the bidding and waiting PLUS shipping???
> > Forget it.
>

I haven't priced them on eBay recently so I dunno what the going rate
is for a user. Chipped japaning has no effect on useablity and old
is good in terms fo fit and function. Typically an old block plane
will require less fettling than a new one to get it useable condition.
I like restoring planes so maybe that is what makes the difference
to me.

I'll agree that you can't go wrong with LN or LV though, and the plane
will be useable or at most require a slight honing to the blade
right out of the box.

--

FF

Thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate you taking the time to do it.

Dick Snyder
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Dick Snyder wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> I need to remove a small amount of trim (up to 1/8" in a couple of
> cases -
>> usually less than that). ... Can you either point me at a good
> on-line
>> resource so I can read about this or can you give some advice based
> on your
>> own experience?
>>
>
> The practice of removing small amounts of material to make pieces fit
> is called 'blocking in' and the tool commonly used is the block plane.
>
> Stanley manufactured an enormous variety of block planes, some of
> the best are still made by Stanley, with Record and others making
> knock-offs while Lee Valley and Lie Neilsen have somewhat improved
> designs derivative from the Stanley designs. The fanciest have an a
> djustable mouth and fine adjustments for the depth of cut and skew
> of the blade. All three of those features are useful.
>
> If you can find an old Stanley, as at an antique store the quality
> will probably be better than any but the most expensive ones made
> today.
>
> Here is a guide to Stanley planes, there were serveral series
> of block planes but the 9 1/2 and 65 are the ones still
> made by Stanley though they no longer use those model numbers
> and I think the new 65s have a skew adjustment not shown on the
> webpages.
>
> http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html
>
> Lee Valley and Lie Neilsen (Nielsen?) have their won webpages.
>
> Simpler less expspensive models without the fine adjustments
> will get the job done, but I recommend getting one with those
> as they'll save you a lot of time and frustration fettling
> it.
>
> Personally, I prefer the lever caps that use a knurled screw to
> clamp down the blade as I can slightly loosen it befor adjusting.
> The 'snail lever' and other quick release caps save 2 - 3 seconds
> when removing the blade for honing which, in my view is a silly
> time to worry about saving a second or two compared to making
> it easier to adjust during use. Clearly this is a minority
> opinion, though.
>
> After using a block plane, there will be no going back. Befor
> long when you get a tool catalog in the mail you'll flip past
> the powah tools and rowtah bits to get to the hand tools section,
> scan the pictures and then say to yourself, they sure don't
> make them like they used to.
>
> Good luck.
>
> --
>
> FF
>

> I replied to this message with a further question about sharpening.
> Subsequent to doing that I found a good web resource that answered my question so I don't need any replies. I'm sorry I couldn't
> find this sooner so I wouldn't waste people's time replying to my question.
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/furniture/1273096.html?page=1&c=y Dick Snyder

That's OK, I'll answer anyway... it's a pleasure:

I am not out to spend massive amounts of buckaroos on sharpening
because I am destitutely po'! heh heh... so I use the "scary sharp"
method.

On this you will find a wealth of info on the 'net for free. I will not
buy some companies SS outfit for too much dough either, I went to
my local (and wonderful) junk shop and bought a piece of glass that
is a serious 3/4" thick (highly expensive new, I paid $10), and a length
of marble around 24" long x 11" or so wide, $15.

With these you'd want a cheap vise type Chinese honing guide (they
are usually grey/silver painted), these actually are heavy and work
very well. This is the guide I use, same one comes under many names
and they are on eBay. Anywhere from $9 to $13. It is made to hold
both plane cutters and chisels, as long as they're not real thick ones
like current Stanleys. They have to be proper bench chisels.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000DD0KS/qid=1109660865/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5973910-5972627?v=glance&s=hi
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/product_info.php?cPath=34_48&products_id=1249&osCsid=7874c8a7dbbb49927571999363b3416d
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3114
http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?offerings_id=2417&gcid=C11135x002-4AW&keyword=Honing%20Guide
http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/10910
http://www.thewoodworkerschoice.com/detail.asp?product_id=0239
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-HG-800-1800&Category_Code=THG

They are everywhere.

To set the bevels you have to measure how far out of the guide the
blade extends. I use the depth end of a Vernier caliper, this info is
on the guide's package and molded into the side of the guide, two
measurements each per type of blade, in metric.

The other items are a can of 3M super 77 adhesive spray, a can of
Bestine's rubber cement thinner ~or~ a can of s.p.e.c.s. paint thinner
works just as well (specifically), and cheaper. The dry glue must be
removed before applying new papers to avoid hills and valleys.

And a set of Norton sandpapers that are aluminum oxide, from 100,
220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1200. You can go as high as 1500 if you
can find it. On these papers I would look to the 'net for best pricing.
I skip 400 and 800 for drudgery, but this system works extremely well.

...just one economical idea for you,

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Dick Snyder wrote:
>
> I am building a dresser with 6 drawers and each drawer has red oak trim
> around all four edges. I can put up a picture on apbw but I don't think you
> would need to see anything to give me some advice.
>
> I need to remove a small amount of trim (up to 1/8" in a couple of cases -
> usually less than that). I believe a plane would be the right tool to use
> rather than a sanding block and sandpaper. The only plane I own is a 40 year
> only monster from Sears. I have looked on the web and in this newsgroup
> history via google but I can't find any resource that can give some advice
> on what kind of plane to buy. Can you either point me at a good on-line
> resource so I can read about this or can you give some advice based on your
> own experience?
>

For that sounds like a small block plane would be fine if you don't want
to spend much...sharpen it up good and lap the sole a little if it seems
too sorry initially.

If you clean up the old smoother you could probably get by, but it may
be a little awkward (as I gather is the hesitation to just go get it
now)...

If, otoh, you're looking or an excuse, there's always Lie-Nelson, et
al... :)

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Dick Snyder wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> I need to remove a small amount of trim (up to 1/8" in a couple of
> cases -
>> usually less than that). ... Can you either point me at a good
> on-line
>> resource so I can read about this or can you give some advice based
> on your
>> own experience?
>>
>
> The practice of removing small amounts of material to make pieces fit
> is called 'blocking in' and the tool commonly used is the block plane.
>
> Stanley manufactured an enormous variety of block planes, some of
> the best are still made by Stanley, with Record and others making
> knock-offs while Lee Valley and Lie Neilsen have somewhat improved
> designs derivative from the Stanley designs. The fanciest have an a
> djustable mouth and fine adjustments for the depth of cut and skew
> of the blade. All three of those features are useful.
>
> If you can find an old Stanley, as at an antique store the quality
> will probably be better than any but the most expensive ones made
> today.
>
> Here is a guide to Stanley planes, there were serveral series
> of block planes but the 9 1/2 and 65 are the ones still
> made by Stanley though they no longer use those model numbers
> and I think the new 65s have a skew adjustment not shown on the
> webpages.
>
> http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html
>
> Lee Valley and Lie Neilsen (Nielsen?) have their won webpages.
>
> Simpler less expspensive models without the fine adjustments
> will get the job done, but I recommend getting one with those
> as they'll save you a lot of time and frustration fettling
> it.
>
> Personally, I prefer the lever caps that use a knurled screw to
> clamp down the blade as I can slightly loosen it befor adjusting.
> The 'snail lever' and other quick release caps save 2 - 3 seconds
> when removing the blade for honing which, in my view is a silly
> time to worry about saving a second or two compared to making
> it easier to adjust during use. Clearly this is a minority
> opinion, though.
>
> After using a block plane, there will be no going back. Befor
> long when you get a tool catalog in the mail you'll flip past
> the powah tools and rowtah bits to get to the hand tools section,
> scan the pictures and then say to yourself, they sure don't
> make them like they used to.
>
> Good luck.
>
> --
>
> FF

My experience with antique stores is that most of the time the planes are
mostly over priced and not in good condition. You can but new planes for
prices competitive to the prices in the antique stores I've been in. If I
need to do the task you need to do I use the Veritas apron plane ($70
range), a LN 140 ($185 range), or a Stanley #4 smoother (Ebay $25-$30
range).

I strongly second the Veritas apron plane. It comes from the store (almost)
ready to use, fits the hand, adjusts easily and cuts well. What more could
a person want?

Walt C


"Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:BBKUd.64665$Dc.36791@trnddc06...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Dick Snyder wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I need to remove a small amount of trim (up to 1/8" in a couple of
>> cases -
>>> usually less than that). ... Can you either point me at a good
>> on-line
>>> resource so I can read about this or can you give some advice based
>> on your
>>> own experience?
>>>
>>
>> The practice of removing small amounts of material to make pieces fit
>> is called 'blocking in' and the tool commonly used is the block plane.
>>
>> Stanley manufactured an enormous variety of block planes, some of
>> the best are still made by Stanley, with Record and others making
>> knock-offs while Lee Valley and Lie Neilsen have somewhat improved
>> designs derivative from the Stanley designs. The fanciest have an a
>> djustable mouth and fine adjustments for the depth of cut and skew
>> of the blade. All three of those features are useful.
>>
>> If you can find an old Stanley, as at an antique store the quality
>> will probably be better than any but the most expensive ones made
>> today.
>>
>> Here is a guide to Stanley planes, there were serveral series
>> of block planes but the 9 1/2 and 65 are the ones still
>> made by Stanley though they no longer use those model numbers
>> and I think the new 65s have a skew adjustment not shown on the
>> webpages.
>>
>> http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html
>>
>> Lee Valley and Lie Neilsen (Nielsen?) have their won webpages.
>>
>> Simpler less expspensive models without the fine adjustments
>> will get the job done, but I recommend getting one with those
>> as they'll save you a lot of time and frustration fettling
>> it.
>>
>> Personally, I prefer the lever caps that use a knurled screw to
>> clamp down the blade as I can slightly loosen it befor adjusting.
>> The 'snail lever' and other quick release caps save 2 - 3 seconds
>> when removing the blade for honing which, in my view is a silly
>> time to worry about saving a second or two compared to making
>> it easier to adjust during use. Clearly this is a minority
>> opinion, though.
>>
>> After using a block plane, there will be no going back. Befor
>> long when you get a tool catalog in the mail you'll flip past
>> the powah tools and rowtah bits to get to the hand tools section,
>> scan the pictures and then say to yourself, they sure don't
>> make them like they used to.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> --
>>
>> FF
>
> My experience with antique stores is that most of the time the planes are
> mostly over priced and not in good condition. You can but new planes for
> prices competitive to the prices in the antique stores I've been in. If I
> need to do the task you need to do I use the Veritas apron plane ($70
> range), a LN 140 ($185 range), or a Stanley #4 smoother (Ebay $25-$30
> range).
>
>
>

I replied to this message with a further question about sharpening.
Subsequent to doing that I found a good web resource that answered my
question so I don't need any replies. I'm sorry I couldn't find this sooner
so I wouldn't waste people's time replying to my question.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/furniture/1273096.html?page=1&c=y

Dick Snyder
"AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:wNLUd.19$Ke.6@fed1read03...
>
> I mulled over this descision for quite a while, constantly looking
> at low angle block planes for a few months. I discovered all options
> and prices, small and large, eBay is always loaded with them from
> all makers but to get a decent Stanley 60 1/2 used is too much con-
> sidering the condition, lots of japanning chipped off, and "just old",
> you might need a new $30 blade as well so why pay $50-$60 for
> that plane, after all the bidding and waiting PLUS shipping???
> Forget it.
>
> So, I decided upon a Lee Valley Veritas low angle block plane, brand
> new, very heavy and well made including a thick A2 steel blade for
> $99, and no way have I regreted it. The body is of ductile iron which
> will not crack from dropping and has nice brass parts that are precision
> machined.
>
> Also, the A2 blade will hold an edge longer, and is a little harder to
> sharpen. I did it the other night and it was a bit harder but nothing
> that would deter me from buying A2 in the future. This plane has a
> 1/4" wider blade than the Lie-Nielson blade, which is not "traditional",
> and has a blade skewer that LN also does not have, and it is $51 more.
>
> Anyway, good luck in your decision,
>
> --
> Alex
> cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
> not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
>

Thanks for taking the time to give me a detailed answer. Good stuff!

"AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3IUUd.389$Ke.82@fed1read03...
>
>> I replied to this message with a further question about sharpening.
>> Subsequent to doing that I found a good web resource that answered my
>> question so I don't need any replies. I'm sorry I couldn't find this
>> sooner so I wouldn't waste people's time replying to my question.
>> http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/furniture/1273096.html?page=1&c=y
>> Dick Snyder
>
> That's OK, I'll answer anyway... it's a pleasure:
>
> I am not out to spend massive amounts of buckaroos on sharpening
> because I am destitutely po'! heh heh... so I use the "scary sharp"
> method.
>
> On this you will find a wealth of info on the 'net for free. I will not
> buy some companies SS outfit for too much dough either, I went to
> my local (and wonderful) junk shop and bought a piece of glass that
> is a serious 3/4" thick (highly expensive new, I paid $10), and a length
> of marble around 24" long x 11" or so wide, $15.
>
> With these you'd want a cheap vise type Chinese honing guide (they
> are usually grey/silver painted), these actually are heavy and work
> very well. This is the guide I use, same one comes under many names
> and they are on eBay. Anywhere from $9 to $13. It is made to hold
> both plane cutters and chisels, as long as they're not real thick ones
> like current Stanleys. They have to be proper bench chisels.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000DD0KS/qid=1109660865/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5973910-5972627?v=glance&s=hi
> http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/product_info.php?cPath=34_48&products_id=1249&osCsid=7874c8a7dbbb49927571999363b3416d
> http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=3114
> http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?offerings_id=2417&gcid=C11135x002-4AW&keyword=Honing%20Guide
> http://www.hartvilletool.com/product/10910
> http://www.thewoodworkerschoice.com/detail.asp?product_id=0239
> http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-HG-800-1800&Category_Code=THG
>
> They are everywhere.
>
> To set the bevels you have to measure how far out of the guide the
> blade extends. I use the depth end of a Vernier caliper, this info is
> on the guide's package and molded into the side of the guide, two
> measurements each per type of blade, in metric.
>
> The other items are a can of 3M super 77 adhesive spray, a can of
> Bestine's rubber cement thinner ~or~ a can of s.p.e.c.s. paint thinner
> works just as well (specifically), and cheaper. The dry glue must be
> removed before applying new papers to avoid hills and valleys.
>
> And a set of Norton sandpapers that are aluminum oxide, from 100,
> 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, 1200. You can go as high as 1500 if you
> can find it. On these papers I would look to the 'net for best pricing.
> I skip 400 and 800 for drudgery, but this system works extremely well.
>
> ...just one economical idea for you,
>
> --
> Alex
> cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
> not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
>

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "Walt Cheever" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I strongly second the Veritas apron plane.

I wouldn't. For the extra money, their adjustable mouth version is
even better. The Lee Valley / Veritas low angle block plane is one of
the few hand tools I've bought new over the last few years and really
been happy with.

> It comes from the store (almost)
>ready to use

What needs doing to it ? One of the things I like about Veritas is
that they send them out ready-to-roll. Most makers don't. Steve
Knight is another one who sets them up properly before shipping.

I mulled over this descision for quite a while, constantly looking
at low angle block planes for a few months. I discovered all options
and prices, small and large, eBay is always loaded with them from
all makers but to get a decent Stanley 60 1/2 used is too much con-
sidering the condition, lots of japanning chipped off, and "just old",
you might need a new $30 blade as well so why pay $50-$60 for
that plane, after all the bidding and waiting PLUS shipping???
Forget it.

So, I decided upon a Lee Valley Veritas low angle block plane, brand
new, very heavy and well made including a thick A2 steel blade for
$99, and no way have I regreted it. The body is of ductile iron which
will not crack from dropping and has nice brass parts that are precision
machined.

Also, the A2 blade will hold an edge longer, and is a little harder to
sharpen. I did it the other night and it was a bit harder but nothing
that would deter me from buying A2 in the future. This plane has a
1/4" wider blade than the Lie-Nielson blade, which is not "traditional",
and has a blade skewer that LN also does not have, and it is $51 more.

Anyway, good luck in your decision,

--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/

Speaking of sharpening, I have done a little research on this too and have
some more questions. I see devices to hold the steel blade for sharpening,
another device to hold it at a different angle for honing, and sets of 3
stones for sharpening. Does this sound right? The price of all that stuff is
more than the plane in some cases...........

"AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:wNLUd.19$Ke.6@fed1read03...
>
> I mulled over this descision for quite a while, constantly looking
> at low angle block planes for a few months. I discovered all options
> and prices, small and large, eBay is always loaded with them from
> all makers but to get a decent Stanley 60 1/2 used is too much con-
> sidering the condition, lots of japanning chipped off, and "just old",
> you might need a new $30 blade as well so why pay $50-$60 for
> that plane, after all the bidding and waiting PLUS shipping???
> Forget it.
>
> So, I decided upon a Lee Valley Veritas low angle block plane, brand
> new, very heavy and well made including a thick A2 steel blade for
> $99, and no way have I regreted it. The body is of ductile iron which
> will not crack from dropping and has nice brass parts that are precision
> machined.
>
> Also, the A2 blade will hold an edge longer, and is a little harder to
> sharpen. I did it the other night and it was a bit harder but nothing
> that would deter me from buying A2 in the future. This plane has a
> 1/4" wider blade than the Lie-Nielson blade, which is not "traditional",
> and has a blade skewer that LN also does not have, and it is $51 more.
>
> Anyway, good luck in your decision,
>
> --
> Alex
> cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
> not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
>