I've been experimenting with my woodrat and I find that after some
practice I can make joints as tight or loose as I wish.
Although there is a certain satisfaction in making a really slick,
precise and tightly fitting dry joint, I begin to suspect that things
would be better if I left a little more room for some glue.
While all the test joints I have made seem to hold OK, with an aim of
making furniture that lasts reasonably well I am concerned to get this
right.
What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Tim Douglass wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:42:47 -0500, Nova <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>
>>John DeBoo wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some
>>>part of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the
>>>munchies....gotta go.......
>>>Go Seahawks!
>>>
>>>
>>This may refresh your memory... "bracelet assistant", right!
>>
>>http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PKBHOLD&Category_Code=
>>
>>
>
>*Very* nice roach^h^h^h^h^h bracelet assistant. And since it is made
>from wood it gets this mess back on topic.
>
>Tim Douglass
>
>http://www.DouglassClan.com
>
>
Hmmmmm, there just may be something to turning
pens................................
John
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Tim Douglass wrote:<br>
<blockquote cite="[email protected]"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:42:47 -0500, Nova <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a>
wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">John DeBoo wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some
part of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the
munchies....gotta go.......
Go Seahawks!
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">This may refresh your memory... "bracelet assistant", right!
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PKBHOLD&Category_Code=">http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PKBHOLD&Category_Code=</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
*Very* nice roach^h^h^h^h^h bracelet assistant. And since it is made
from wood it gets this mess back on topic.
Tim Douglass
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.DouglassClan.com">http://www.DouglassClan.com</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
Hmmmmm, there just may be something to turning
pens................................<br>
John<br>
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For most joints, a snug fit is best. Not so tight that it requires a
hard tug to pull it apart nor a mallet to put together, not so loose
that there is slop. My handcut dovetail joints are the exception--they
are tight and require a mallet to assemble. Don't be concerned about
enough glue in the joint, a thin layer on both mating surfaces is
enough. Never think the glue will compensate for a loose-fitting
joint.
On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I've been experimenting with my woodrat and I find that after some
>practice I can make joints as tight or loose as I wish.
>
>Although there is a certain satisfaction in making a really slick,
>precise and tightly fitting dry joint, I begin to suspect that things
>would be better if I left a little more room for some glue.
>
>While all the test joints I have made seem to hold OK, with an aim of
>making furniture that lasts reasonably well I am concerned to get this
>right.
>
>What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
>or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?
> Don't be concerned about enough glue in the joint, a thin layer on
> both mating surfaces is enough.
This is what I was worrying about. This sounds like the best of both
worlds then - a tight fitting dry joint is a pleasure to produce (in a
wierd sort of way) and should hold well too!
I assume this is also glue independant? For now I'm using TiteBond ..
Thanks people,
Nigel.
Brings back memories of 30 years ago when I could roll up a perfect
bone with one Bugler paper (not that EZwider stuff, that was for
"kids") in under 10 seconds. Although I gave up the reefer almost as
many years ago, a buddy of mine smokes Bugler's and I rolled one up
just as quick for him, better than he can, so you never lose the touch,
I guess.
Mutt
Nigel wrote:
>
...
> What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
> or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?
Snug w/ <maybe> a light tap for final drawdown on a large mortise...
More force required is too tight, a fit that goes "klunk" when it hits
the shoulder is too loose...
John DeBoo wrote:
> Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some
> part of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the
> munchies....gotta go.......
> Go Seahawks!
This may refresh your memory... "bracelet assistant", right!
http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PKBHOLD&Category_Code=
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
George wrote:
> M/T has shear strength based on the tenon depth and wood strength. Shape of
> corner unimportant. What's important is that the tenon should mate with the
> bottom of the of the mortise in the load direction. Can be loose as a goose
> up top.
>
> Racking stress depends on a firm register of the shoulders of the tenoned
> member against the mortised member.
>
> Unshouldered tenons should fit and bottom the mortise to take best advantage
> of the anti-racking available by having some resistance at right angles to
> the tenon itself.
and charlie b added:
the following may make George's points clearer
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MtPrimer4.html
wood expands more, a lot more, acrossed the grain than with the
grain.
A mortise and tenon typically joins at 90 degrees (+/-). If the
tenon
fits the opening snug all the way around, the dimension of the
mortise
won't change much, the depth of the mortise might but that's not
a problem. The tenon, on the other hand, can expand or contract
because
of the cross grain on the critical, largest cross grain height
dimension.
Leaving a little room on top gives the tenon some room to move.
|<----->|
| |------
| | ^
| | |
| | v
| |-----------
And here's some more on "fit", including "spit tight".
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MTPrimer13.html
M&Ts seem so easy and straight foreward - until you think
about it a bit - or try to make some good ones. Them old
woodworkers were pretty smart - and skilled!
Hope this helps.
charlie b
GerryG wrote:
>
> Charlie's site like a pretty good reference for many to start with. As was
> mentioned, there are very few articles that go into enough detail. However,
> keep an eye open for articles by Ian Kirby. He goes into more details of
> joinery than most.
>
> A little confusing, though, on his mortise/tenon-first page. He says he cuts
> the tenon first, then goes on and gives another reason for cutting the mortise
> first. I agree with his comments, but I'm not sure which his conclusion is.
Geez, and I thought I was like The Pope - inflammable. Sorry - it
was
a Thinko (mental equivalent of a typo) and it's been fixed.
Definitely
mortise first -yeah, mortise first. K-Mart sucks, yeah.
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MTPrimer11.html
Sorry about the confusion. My bad.
charlie b
"Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > Don't be concerned about enough glue in the joint, a thin layer on
> > both mating surfaces is enough.
>
> This is what I was worrying about. This sounds like the best of both
> worlds then - a tight fitting dry joint is a pleasure to produce (in a
> wierd sort of way) and should hold well too!
>
> I assume this is also glue independant? For now I'm using TiteBond ..
>
Well, it's not all that you think. The word "snug" is best, I believe, in
describing the dry fit. Water-soluble glues expand the fiber almost
immediately, so don't dawdle over assembly.
Oh yes, the plastic will keep the area expanded as it solidifies, so you
really can get by with a little less than a press fit.
"Tim Douglass" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Maybe on a related thought, are mortises
> stronger with rounded corners (routed) or with square corners?
> Intuition would tell me that a rounded M&T would have fewer stress
> points and would therefore be stronger, but intuition is often wrong.
>
M/T has shear strength based on the tenon depth and wood strength. Shape of
corner unimportant. What's important is that the tenon should mate with the
bottom of the of the mortise in the load direction. Can be loose as a goose
up top.
Racking stress depends on a firm register of the shoulders of the tenoned
member against the mortised member.
Unshouldered tenons should fit and bottom the mortise to take best advantage
of the anti-racking available by having some resistance at right angles to
the tenon itself.
On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I've been experimenting with my woodrat and I find that after some
>practice I can make joints as tight or loose as I wish.
>
>Although there is a certain satisfaction in making a really slick,
>precise and tightly fitting dry joint, I begin to suspect that things
>would be better if I left a little more room for some glue.
>
>While all the test joints I have made seem to hold OK, with an aim of
>making furniture that lasts reasonably well I am concerned to get this
>right.
>
>What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
>or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?
you want them to slide smoothly together without needing to be driven
and without slopping about.
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:42:47 -0500, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:
>John DeBoo wrote:
>
>> Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some
>> part of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the
>> munchies....gotta go.......
>> Go Seahawks!
>
>This may refresh your memory... "bracelet assistant", right!
>
> http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=PKBHOLD&Category_Code=
*Very* nice roach^h^h^h^h^h bracelet assistant. And since it is made
from wood it gets this mess back on topic.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 03:44:44 GMT, GerryG <[email protected]> wrote:
>While I agree with all the posts, I'll add one item: the surfaces should be
>smooth. I can just a joint on the bandsaw that slides smoothly together
>without slop, but the rougher surface just won't be as strong unless the glue
>is sufficiently gap-filling and enough is applied.
>
>Still and all, most well-made glue joints are stronger than the wood itself. I
>compared MT joints with the mortice from morticing bits and the tenon on a BS,
>against routed mortice and TS tenon. Angled strain broke the wood in both
>cases. However, repeated back-and-forth pounding loosened the former while the
>latter held.
>GerryG
Good point and one I hadn't thought of. How smooth *are* the mortises
from a mortising machine? Maybe on a related thought, are mortises
stronger with rounded corners (routed) or with square corners?
Intuition would tell me that a rounded M&T would have fewer stress
points and would therefore be stronger, but intuition is often wrong.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:06:43 +0000, LRod
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
>subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
>the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
>is...one what, I don't know.
Beat me to it.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
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Tim Douglass wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:06:43 +0000, LRod
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
>>subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
>>the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
>>is...one what, I don't know.
>>
>>
>
>Beat me to it.
>
>Tim Douglass
>
>
Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some part
of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the munchies....gotta
go.......
Go Seahawks!
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<title></title>
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Tim Douglass wrote:<br>
<blockquote cite="[email protected]"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:06:43 +0000, LRod
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a> wrote:
I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
is...one what, I don't know.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Beat me to it.
Tim Douglass
</pre>
</blockquote>
Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some part
of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the munchies....gotta
go.......<br>
Go Seahawks!<br>
</body>
</html>
--------------050809020101060604010409--
Ummm... on
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MTPrimer11.html
you have "Another reason for doing the mortises first"
still there.
GerryG
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:06:17 -0800, charlie b <[email protected]> wrote:
>GerryG wrote:
>>
>> Charlie's site like a pretty good reference for many to start with. As was
>> mentioned, there are very few articles that go into enough detail. However,
>> keep an eye open for articles by Ian Kirby. He goes into more details of
>> joinery than most.
>>
>> A little confusing, though, on his mortise/tenon-first page. He says he cuts
>> the tenon first, then goes on and gives another reason for cutting the mortise
>> first. I agree with his comments, but I'm not sure which his conclusion is.
>
> Geez, and I thought I was like The Pope - inflammable. Sorry - it
>was
> a Thinko (mental equivalent of a typo) and it's been fixed.
>Definitely
> mortise first -yeah, mortise first. K-Mart sucks, yeah.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MTPrimer11.html
>
> Sorry about the confusion. My bad.
>
> charlie b
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:21:34 -0700, John DeBoo <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> RE: Subject
>>
>> Reminds me of the old one about how do you make a hormone?
>>
>> Answer:
>>
>> Don't pay her.
>>
>> <Moan>
>>
>> Lew
>
>Or step on her douche bag..............
Pinch her tit.
"Nigel" wrote in message
> What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
> or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?
My general rule of thumb is just tight enough to put together and take apart
by hand, but not so loose that it will fall apart by itself.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:21:46 -0800, the inscrutable charlie b
<[email protected]> spake:
>SCREAMING YELLOW ZONKERS
>THE Ultimate stoner munchie!
>
>charlie b
>flashing back
>now its nitros oxide - at the dontist's
>endodontist, periodontist, prostheodontist ...
>"we can rebuild him - we have the
>technology.
>(am way beyond mere dentists and
> approaching the 6 million dollar mark)
Zig-zag machine. (Remove stems and seeds first.)
Hmmm, mmm mmm "No stems, no seeds that you don't need,
Acapulco Gold is Bad Ass Weed." mmmmm
(from a whole 'nother life ago)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction. --Steven Wright
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
In addition to the leaves not falling out, don't forget that air must pass
through it easily once lit, or else it is too tight. --dave
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
> subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
> the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
> is...one what, I don't know.
>
>
> - -
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
While I agree with all the posts, I'll add one item: the surfaces should be
smooth. I can just a joint on the bandsaw that slides smoothly together
without slop, but the rougher surface just won't be as strong unless the glue
is sufficiently gap-filling and enough is applied.
Still and all, most well-made glue joints are stronger than the wood itself. I
compared MT joints with the mortice from morticing bits and the tenon on a BS,
against routed mortice and TS tenon. Angled strain broke the wood in both
cases. However, repeated back-and-forth pounding loosened the former while the
latter held.
GerryG
On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:07:07 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I've been experimenting with my woodrat and I find that after some
>>practice I can make joints as tight or loose as I wish.
>>
>>Although there is a certain satisfaction in making a really slick,
>>precise and tightly fitting dry joint, I begin to suspect that things
>>would be better if I left a little more room for some glue.
>>
>>While all the test joints I have made seem to hold OK, with an aim of
>>making furniture that lasts reasonably well I am concerned to get this
>>right.
>>
>>What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
>>or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?
>
>
>you want them to slide smoothly together without needing to be driven
>and without slopping about.
Charlie's site like a pretty good reference for many to start with. As was
mentioned, there are very few articles that go into enough detail. However,
keep an eye open for articles by Ian Kirby. He goes into more details of
joinery than most.
A little confusing, though, on his mortise/tenon-first page. He says he cuts
the tenon first, then goes on and gives another reason for cutting the mortise
first. I agree with his comments, but I'm not sure which his conclusion is.
For most cases, I used to always start with the mortise. Moving to router
template jigs, however, it no longer matters since I get exact duplicates
(provided I don't flip the reference faces, of course).
GerryG
On 23 Feb 2005 12:09:04 -0800, "Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I just browsed around a bit on charlie b's site. There are some
>interesting thoughts there ... probably old hat to you pro's but this
>beginner is pushed into thinking a bit about what he finds there.
>Thanks charlie !
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:13:57 -0800, charlie b <[email protected]>
wrote:
> and charlie b added:
>
> the following may make George's points clearer
>
>http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MtPrimer4.html
Good stuff all the way around. I guess there really isn't any reason
to square the corners of my mortises when I cut them with a router. It
is dead simple to make the tenon fit the rounded corners and a bit of
a pain to make the mortise square, so with no structural reason to do
it differently I'm voting for round ended M&Ts unless someone provides
a practical reason or if I'm doing a through tenon.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:24:03 -0700, John DeBoo <[email protected]>
wrote:
Please turn off your HTML.
- -
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote:
I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
is...one what, I don't know.
- -
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:13:09 -0700, John DeBoo <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Tim Douglass wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:06:43 +0000, LRod
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
>>>subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
>>>the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
>>>is...one what, I don't know.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Beat me to it.
>>
>>Tim Douglass
>>
>>
>Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some part
>of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the munchies....gotta
>go.......
I think that a clip of some sort would be considered part of *using*
not *making*.
>Go Seahawks!
Right on!
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com