Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and kept up
with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no longer
work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop. I've
settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll run
all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker panel
outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over to
the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire. Its
cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and if
its noisy, just abandon it in place.
If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines and
power in the same conduit, please let me know.
Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new set
of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Bob
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:03:51 GMT, "Bob Davis"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Ah, facts I can use. So, since my service is #6 wires (55-60 amps depending
>on how you interpret the ratings), I need a #10 ground wire.
>
>Bob
Any special reason why yer runnin' the wire inside that pipe? You
don't need to, ya know. There's easier and cheaper ways to accomplish
what you want to do.
You might even want to just put a drop right at the garage.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Follow Joan Rivers' example --- get pre-embalmed!
no it should not be in the same conduit, run a separate (small) conduit
and run the phone, intercom, security and network cable in it.
the ground wire is NOT there to handle the load if the neutral "fails"
ask your electric supplier, he know the scoop for the local area. wire
inspectors can, and do, set their own rules.
BRuce
Bob Gramza wrote:
> You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for your shop. I would run the
> ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries the current it could burn.
> "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and kept up
> : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no longer
> : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
> : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
> :
> : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop. I've
> : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll run
> : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker panel
> : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over to
> : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire. Its
> : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
> : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
> : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and if
> : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
> :
> : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines and
> : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
> :
> : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new set
> : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
> : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
> : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
> :
> : Thanks in advance for your comments.
> :
> : Bob
> :
> :
>
>
"Bob G" <[email protected]> wrote...
> But I am curious as to why everyone said not to run the phone line inside
> the same pvc... [as power lines] Mine has been working just fine all these years.
While the odds of a fault in the power-lines and phone-lines insulation
might cause the phone wires to become "hot" (especially in the presence
of water in the conduit, which happens) may be low, the NEC authorities
probably think it isn't worth the risk.
The 100-amp 220V feed to our shop is in conduit,
and the phone lines and alarm-system lines are 12" above it,
in the same trench, in armored direct-burial cable. (As long
as you are running cable, a few extra pairs for an alarm system
is cheap enough, and may someday save your tools.)
--
Dennis M. O'Connor [email protected]
well lets see most shops are in the garage... a 3HP TS and a 2HP DC and
the air compressor starts while they are both running and for some
reason you have the lights on, the chest freezer starts, the wife opens
the garage door... Thats not 100Amps not even 80Amps which is the max
you should draw but the voltage drop on smaller conductors might cause
issues. As another poster said "wire is cheap".
BRuce
Bob Davis wrote:
> What are you guys with 100 amp feeds doing in your shop?!!!!???? I can't
> buy enough tools to suck that much power, even if run at the same time. If
> my math is right, it would take 8 3 hp motors running loaded at the same
> time to approach loading it up. I sure don't want the electricity bill
> for that.
>
> <g>
>
>
> "Dennis M. O'Connor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>The 100-amp 220V feed to our shop is in conduit,
>
>
>
"Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote ...
> What are you guys with 100 amp feeds doing in your shop?!!!!????
Well, it used to be the 100A feed to the pool, but when the backhoe
guy tore through that digging the footings for the addition, we decided
to put the pool on the 200A panel that fed the old side of the house
(since that side of the house no longer has a kitchen), and run the
100A line out of the 600A service panel to the shop, leaving the
other 200A line from the 600A panel for the addition.
Now, you might ask, why do I have a 600A service panel
(5' wide, 6' tall and 16" deep, made of 3/16" steel plate)
that has 200, 200 and 100 amp subfeeds coming off it ?
The answer is: when I added a pool about a decade ago,
I wanted enough power for the eventual addition and shop,
and the pool has 6 pumps (8.5 HP total) and 1500W of lights,
and I thought "600A" meant 300A on each side. D'oh !
$12K and a pole-mounted transformer upgrade later,
I had underground service and enough power to run
a large commercial AM radio station. Oh well. And the
600A service box is right next to the new front door.
So we put a fake tree near it and a little ceramic jaguar (cat) on it.
> I sure don't want the electricity bill for that.
Fortunately we only pay for what we use, but in the summer
in AZ, that can be over $400.
--
Dennis M. O'Connor [email protected]
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:39:00 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Now it's going to cost them dearly to rebury the cable (it still
>hasn't been done). Had they ran the wire in a conduit, it probably wouldn't
>have been damaged, and it would be a lot less costly to pull in a new wire if it
>became necessary.
Not really true.
Most phone companies, and CATV, for that matter, now use a machine
that slits the ground, places the cable, and folds the turf back in
place. It's fast, easy and inexpensive, compared to installing
conduit. The delay may involve an outside contractor's scheduling.
My father waited 6 months for a cable TV wire to get reburied.
Based on the total number of buried service installations that go in,
compared to those that go bad enough to be completely replaced, no
conduit is much cheaper. If it wasn't, they'd install the conduit,
just as they still do for large cables. Believe me, the phone company
_is_ doing it the cheapest way possible overall, based on averages.
Barry
It has been well over 10 years ..closer to 20 I guess..since I built my shop
..and honestly I do remember I ran 4 a wire telephone line inside the 2 inch
pvc line I ran to the
shop (used indivifual 6 guage wire for the electrical )...
But I am curious as to why everyone said not to run the phone line inside
the same pvc... Mine has been working just fine all these years.. ...
The phones Main use is honestly so my wife can call me for dinner... (used
as an intercom)...
I do wish I had run a Cat 5 cable down to the shop also...BUT back then I
had never heard of Cat 5 and a 300 baud dial up account was ok a 1200 baud
dial up was "bitching fast"... But the wireless connection to a laptop does
work...
Bob Griffiths
Bob GRiffiths
Bob Davis wrote:
<snip>
> Since the phone wire does not have to be in conduit, I'll just run it
> outside parallel to the power conduit and hide it behind the conduit. In my
> area, that's typically how phone wiring is done (exterior grade phone wire
> stabled to the building).
A number of years ago the company I work for erected a small building
approximately 250' from the road. When the telephone line was run the local
phone company direct buried the phone wire. This spring a woodchuck ate through
their cable. Now it's going to cost them dearly to rebury the cable (it still
hasn't been done). Had they ran the wire in a conduit, it probably wouldn't
have been damaged, and it would be a lot less costly to pull in a new wire if it
became necessary.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:39:00 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >Now it's going to cost them dearly to rebury the cable (it still
> >hasn't been done). Had they ran the wire in a conduit, it probably wouldn't
> >have been damaged, and it would be a lot less costly to pull in a new wire if it
> >became necessary.
>
> Not really true.
>
> Most phone companies, and CATV, for that matter, now use a machine
> that slits the ground, places the cable, and folds the turf back in
> place. It's fast, easy and inexpensive, compared to installing
> conduit. The delay may involve an outside contractor's scheduling.
> My father waited 6 months for a cable TV wire to get reburied.
I work for a major telephone company and part of my job requires me to cover
excavations that might affect our cables. I've been doing this now for over four
years, covering an area encompassing the entire western third of New York state (from
20 miles east of Rochester, NY to the Pennsylvania border). Although I know these
devices exist, I have never encountered any contractor using one.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
>I work for a major telephone company and part of my job requires me to cover
>excavations that might affect our cables. I've been doing this now for over
>four
>years, covering an area encompassing the entire western third of New York
>state (from
>20 miles east of Rochester, NY to the Pennsylvania border). Although I know
>these
>devices exist, I have never encountered any contractor using one.
I imagine you are working on the cables that run down the right of way. These
machines are used to bury the customers drop in the yard. Around here they just
use a spade and they barely get under the sod.
I assume they are worried about hitting sprinkler pipes that are 4-6" down.
I have one that popped up in my yard. I told the telco about it but they don't
seem interested in fixing it until I run over it with the lawn mower.
Gfretwell wrote:
> I imagine you are working on the cables that run down the right of way. These
> machines are used to bury the customers drop in the yard. Around here they just
> use a spade and they barely get under the sod.
> I assume they are worried about hitting sprinkler pipes that are 4-6" down.
> I have one that popped up in my yard. I told the telco about it but they don't
> seem interested in fixing it until I run over it with the lawn mower.
The cables under my area of responsibility are transcontinental and take a variety
of different routes, ranging from railroad property, urban neighborhood streets,
farmland and suburban developments. In many places the cables now run through
residential front and back yards.
By law, anytime the ground is broken (other than agriculture) a dig report is
required to be filed. If any of these reported dig sites are within a one-quarter
mile buffer for our cables I get the report to make the final decision as to
whether or not the activity poses a threat to our service. Depending on the time
of year, I typically receive 20 to 90 reports per day. Each of these reports
contains a "method of excavation" entry. Other than "invisible fence"
installations, I've never received a report where a "cable plow" was used.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:23:30 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I work for a major telephone company and part of my job requires me to cover
> >excavations that might affect our cables.
>
> You're a CBYD guy?
>
> Barry
It's one of the many different hats I wear, but occupies the majority of my time.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
run the phone live seperate.......I needed my once in an emergency....glad I
had a phone in the shop to call for help...it wasn,t ;wood related though,
slip n fell on the icy drive n broke my ankle, the shop phone was the
closest I could get too....have fun....
<BRuce> wrote in message news:1067354520.854745@sj-nntpcache-3...
> no it should not be in the same conduit, run a separate (small) conduit
> and run the phone, intercom, security and network cable in it.
>
> the ground wire is NOT there to handle the load if the neutral "fails"
>
> ask your electric supplier, he know the scoop for the local area. wire
> inspectors can, and do, set their own rules.
>
> BRuce
>
> Bob Gramza wrote:
>
> > You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for
your shop. I would run the
> > ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries
the current it could burn.
> > "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and
kept up
> > : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
longer
> > : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
> > : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
> > :
> > : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop.
I've
> > : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll
run
> > : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker
panel
> > : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over
to
> > : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire.
Its
> > : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but
I'm
> > : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance
with
> > : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable
and if
> > : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
> > :
> > : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines
and
> > : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
> > :
> > : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new
set
> > : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer,
band
> > : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my
woodworking
> > : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
> > :
> > : Thanks in advance for your comments.
> > :
> > : Bob
> > :
> > :
> >
> >
>
Don't cheapen out -- drop a 1/2" or better 3/4" conduit next to the power
line so that you can pull in phone, network, even cable TV or internet
connection. You don't know what you will want/need down the road but you
will be thankful for having that extra conduit available, especially if it
travels underground for any distance.
PS. If you are using PVC conduit, the voice/data lines should not be
attached to or very close to the power conduit -- vinyl does not provide the
shielding that steel conduit would -- keep them a couple of inches or more
apart.
"Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I appreciate all the replies. I'm at the stage where its easier to change
> and be safe, rather than try to get by. That's why I asked before I
actually
> did the "cannot turn back" part of the installation.
>
> In summary the suggestions/admonitions from the group:
>
> 1. Do not run the phone wire in the same conduit with the power.
> 2. Use a larger ground wire, suggested #6 or #8.
>
> Since the phone wire does not have to be in conduit, I'll just run it
> outside parallel to the power conduit and hide it behind the conduit. In
my
> area, that's typically how phone wiring is done (exterior grade phone wire
> stabled to the building).
>
> Best regards,
> Bob
>
> "Bob Gramza" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:sAvnb.6212$P%[email protected]...
> > You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for
your
> shop. I would run the
> > ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries
the
> current it could burn.
> > "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and
> kept up
> > : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
> longer
> > : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
> > : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
> > :
> > : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop.
> I've
> > : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll
> run
> > : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker
> panel
> > : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over
> to
> > : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire.
> Its
> > : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but
I'm
> > : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance
with
> > : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable
and
> if
> > : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
> > :
> > : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines
> and
> > : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
> > :
> > : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new
> set
> > : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer,
band
> > : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my
woodworking
> > : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
> > :
> > : Thanks in advance for your comments.
> > :
> > : Bob
> > :
> > :
> >
> >
>
>
In article <1067354520.854745@sj-nntpcache-3>, BRuce <BRuce> wrote:
>no it should not be in the same conduit, run a separate (small) conduit
>and run the phone, intercom, security and network cable in it.
>
Instead of "should not" be in the same conduit, substitute "must not". This is
explicitly prohibited by the NEC, Article 800-52.
>the ground wire is NOT there to handle the load if the neutral "fails"
True, but he still should use a #6 or #8 equipment ground instead of #12.
>
>ask your electric supplier, he know the scoop for the local area. wire
>inspectors can, and do, set their own rules.
>
>BRuce
>
>Bob Gramza wrote:
>
>> You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for your
> shop. I would run the
>> ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries the
> current it could burn.
>> "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and kept
> up
>> : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no longer
>> : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
>> : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
>> :
>> : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop. I've
>> : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll run
>> : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker panel
>> : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over to
>> : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire. Its
>> : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
>> : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
>> : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and if
>> : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
>> :
>> : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines and
>> : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
>> :
>> : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new set
>> : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
>> : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
>> : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
>> :
>> : Thanks in advance for your comments.
>> :
>> : Bob
>> :
>> :
>>
>>
>
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Thanks, Myx.
I think I miscommunicated about where I am running this. None of its
underground. The original wiring to my 3 car garage went through the
ceiling of the first floor from the opposite side of the house (breaker
panel). There is no way to add wire through that ceiling, since its a 2
story house. So I'm bringing the wire from the breaker box (interior closet)
through an exterior wall and into a conduit that will run along the back
side of the house toward the garage.
Bob
"Myxylplyk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob,
>
> Some years ago, about 5, I upgraded the service and communications links
to my shop and
> house.
> First rule for the power upgrade was to do the labor myself to save money,
but do it under
> the direction of a licensed electrician. Let the electrician make the
final hookups and
> call for the inspection. You'll still save a lot of money, but you'll
avoid issues with
> the inspector and possibily your insurance company.
> For communications, I ran a separate 1" conduit and placed it 15" to 18"
away from the
> power conduit. (Local phone and cable company recomendation to avoid
signal degradation
> and interferance.) Since I dug a two foot wide trench, I just put them on
opposite sides.
> Further, even though your using undergound conduit, use underground,
waterproof cables.
> I used 12 pair, gel filled for phone/isdn/dsl and heavy ground rated cable
for digital
> cable service. Both cables were provided by the respective phone and
cable companies.
> Both installers were grateful for me doing/helping with the installation.
I paid only
> small reconnect fees.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Myx
>
>
>
> "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I appreciate all the replies. I'm at the stage where its easier to
change
> > and be safe, rather than try to get by. That's why I asked before I
actually
> > did the "cannot turn back" part of the installation.
> >
> > In summary the suggestions/admonitions from the group:
> >
> > 1. Do not run the phone wire in the same conduit with the power.
> > 2. Use a larger ground wire, suggested #6 or #8.
> >
> > Since the phone wire does not have to be in conduit, I'll just run it
> > outside parallel to the power conduit and hide it behind the conduit.
In my
> > area, that's typically how phone wiring is done (exterior grade phone
wire
> > stabled to the building).
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bob
> >
>
>
In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Davis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>Thanks, Myx.
>
>I think I miscommunicated about where I am running this. None of its
>underground. The original wiring to my 3 car garage went through the
>ceiling of the first floor from the opposite side of the house (breaker
>panel). There is no way to add wire through that ceiling, since its a 2
>story house. So I'm bringing the wire from the breaker box (interior closet)
>through an exterior wall and into a conduit that will run along the back
>side of the house toward the garage.
>
One additional comment/recommendataion:
You mentioned using PVC conduit. A lot of PVC, given exposure to
sunlight, degrades over time. This is a potential problem 'several years
from now'. Also, if it's 'on the surface', it's exposed to all the other
"slings and arrows of outrageous fortune", as it were. The "do it right"
approach is _ridgid_ conduit, w/ waterproof fittings.
> You must have a separate, full sized neutral, and a ground. The neutral
and
> ground must have separate busses, and the neutral buss must be separate
and
> insulated from the case of the breaker housing. One of the busses is
> probably already insulated, and has to be grounded, if need be, with a
> separate thingies.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
Got it. I bought one of the GE consumer main lug boxes and purchased a
separate ground bus that bolts straight to the case.
Whew! Its a good thing my labor is free. I started down this quest because
just adding branch breakers to my existing panel was so darned expensive
(no-longer manufactured Federal Pacific). It was cheaper to add one big
breaker in it to feed the subpanel. I like the idea of paying $8 for a dual
20 amp breaker instead of $48!
Bob
> Elect. conduit is UV approved, and no problem. Use
> glue and have a first class setup.
Thanks for the added note. I'm all for doing something that will outlast
me. There are some practical considerations that I did not add. The
conduit will be in the shade, anyway. My wife wants me to build a wood box
around it to "hide it". And last but not least - I don't have the tools to
thread conduit. Its one of those tools that I will never acquire.
Bob
The other gentleman was correct in that it is not a current carrying wire. It can be a smaller. I do
not know the gauge size the NEC calls for though. My book is long gone.
"Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
: Thanks for the reply, Bob.
:
: Regarding your comment about the neutral, I want to be sure we are talking
: apples and apples. My plan is to carry three #6 conductors for 120/240
: single phase service. The #12 was intended to be just an equipment ground,
: not a current carrying wire. Does the code require it to be same size? My
: existing panel would be in violation. I think its got 3 #2's coming in and
: what appears to be a #10 going to ground rod.
:
: Best regards,
: Bob
:
: "Bob Gramza" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: news:sAvnb.6212$P%[email protected]...
: > You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for your
: shop. I would run the
: > ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries the
: current it could burn.
: > "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > news:[email protected]...
: > : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and
: kept up
: > : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
: longer
: > : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
: > : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
: > :
: > : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop.
: I've
: > : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll
: run
: > : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker
: panel
: > : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over
: to
: > : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire.
: Its
: > : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
: > : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
: > : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and
: if
: > : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
: > :
: > : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines
: and
: > : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
: > :
: > : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new
: set
: > : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
: > : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
: > : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
: > :
: > : Thanks in advance for your comments.
: > :
: > : Bob
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:
In article <[email protected]>, "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Thanks for the reply, Bob.
>
>Regarding your comment about the neutral, I want to be sure we are talking
>apples and apples. My plan is to carry three #6 conductors for 120/240
>single phase service. The #12 was intended to be just an equipment ground,
>not a current carrying wire. Does the code require it to be same size? My
>existing panel would be in violation. I think its got 3 #2's coming in and
>what appears to be a #10 going to ground rod.
>
The 1993 NEC (latest one that I have at hand) says "Copper, aluminum, or
copper-clad aluminum equipment grounding conductors shall not be less than
shown in table 250-95." [Article 250-95]
The table gives the following for copper wire:
*** Please note that more recent codes may have more restrictive requirements.
In any event, though, this shows that your plan is clearly a code violation
even under the 1993 NEC. Your service entrance isn't in compliance either, but
it may have been at the time it was installed.
15A breaker, 14 ga wire
20A, 12 ga
30 thru 60A, 10ga
100A, 8ga
200A, 6ga
[higher amperages omitted]
>Best regards,
>Bob
>
>"Bob Gramza" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:sAvnb.6212$P%[email protected]...
>> You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for your
>shop. I would run the
>> ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries the
>current it could burn.
>> "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and
>kept up
>> : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
>longer
>> : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
>> : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
>> :
>> : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop.
>I've
>> : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll
>run
>> : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker
>panel
>> : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over
>to
>> : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire.
>Its
>> : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
>> : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
>> : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and
>if
>> : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
>> :
>> : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines
>and
>> : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
>> :
>> : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new
>set
>> : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
>> : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
>> : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
>> :
>> : Thanks in advance for your comments.
>> :
>> : Bob
>> :
>> :
>>
>>
>
>
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
In article <[email protected]>, "Erik Ahrens" <erikl_nospam_@_nospam_syserco.com> wrote:
>Bob,
>
>The ground wire cannot be less than two wire sizes smaller than the current
>carrying wire - #6 = #10 ground minimum.
False. Ground wire size depends on the rating of the overcurrent protection
device, and is specified by Table 290-95. [NEC, Article 290-95]
>You CAN run the tele wire in the same conduit
False. This is _explicitly_prohibited_ by the NEC: "Communications conductors
shall not be placed in any raceway, compartment, junction box, or similar
fitting with conductors of electric light or power circuits..." [NEC, Article
800-52(a)(2)c.1]
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
The only way you can run LV and line voltage in the same conduit is if one of
them is in another raceway inside that big one (usually the LV). This is pretty
common when you have duct banks between buildings but not that practical for
residential or anything you are building to a spec. The duct has to be pretty
big to accomodate a raceway plus whatever conductors you run.
"Trent©" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In this modern world...and unless you have a specific need for a
> corded phone...I wouldn't run a phone line at all. Just get a good
> cordless phone.
I am cordless phone poor. I own two cordless headsets, a multi-phone
seimens system, a standard cordless phone - 6 in all, both 2.4 ghz and 900
mhz. None of the works reliably in the shop from a base unit in the house.
The only cure for this is a phone wire to the shop.
Bob
OK, here's my fiew on this. In Canada the local code says it's OK to have
the 'wires in the same trench, as long as they're in separate conduits.
So in one trench, I put water line( good 5/8 garden hose),in 4" weeper
conduit,backfilled 6 inshes,then 100A service feed,again in 4" NON weeper
conductor piping,backfilled 6",then another 4" nonweeping conductor in which
I run TV coax and 2 CAT5 cables,backfilled 6 inches with gravel,then good
topsoil.
The CAT5 wires are for phone lines and alarm system.
Sure it's overkill,but the big conduits give me EASY access for 'upgrade' or
repairs and everything is now in the shop IF I want it in the future...
hth
jay
The run is from the main box inside the house to a detached garage. Part of
the run is outside. I'm only putting the wire in pipe where its outside. I
guess I just feel more comfortable with it being put inside of something and
pipe is cheap.
Bob
"Trent©" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any special reason why yer runnin' the wire inside that pipe? You
> don't need to, ya know. There's easier and cheaper ways to accomplish
> what you want to do.
I'm cheating. I'm doing individual wires and assembling the conduit over
the wire and mounting it - slide on a section, bolt it down, etc. I'd hate
to charge by the hour to do it this way, but its easier on a guy with back
problems. :-)
Bob
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Vm9ob.6576$P%[email protected]...
> f) How many pull boxes did you have in the middle of this 75-foot run?
It's
> probably overkill, but I usually install a pull box every two or three
> sections of conduit. It makes life much easier.
>I'm cheating. I'm doing individual wires and assembling the conduit over
>the wire and mounting it
It's not really legal, but again, I doubt the wiring police will be knocking on
your door. In fact that is how FPL runs long service laterals here. I see it
all the time.
The code assumption is any raceway system is built such that the wires can be
pulled in and out at any time. That makes a lot of sense in a commercial
setting but the code is a "one size fits all" affair.
When I asked my boss how I should use 90-4 (the inspector discretion clause) he
said "just make it safe". Your method is safe IMHO.
Actually, then end result will physically be the same as if I had run the
conduit and pulled the wire through it. I just happen to have the luxury of
being able to put up one 10 foot section of conduit at a time because the
run is not that long (70 feet). I'll have pull boxes and two 90 degree
bends in the conduit. I just don't want to pull it because of my back.
I appreciate your practical comments.
Bob
"Gfretwell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The code assumption is any raceway system is built such that the wires can
be
> pulled in and out at any time.
Thanks for the reply, Bob.
Regarding your comment about the neutral, I want to be sure we are talking
apples and apples. My plan is to carry three #6 conductors for 120/240
single phase service. The #12 was intended to be just an equipment ground,
not a current carrying wire. Does the code require it to be same size? My
existing panel would be in violation. I think its got 3 #2's coming in and
what appears to be a #10 going to ground rod.
Best regards,
Bob
"Bob Gramza" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:sAvnb.6212$P%[email protected]...
> You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for your
shop. I would run the
> ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries the
current it could burn.
> "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and
kept up
> : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
longer
> : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
> : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
> :
> : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop.
I've
> : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll
run
> : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker
panel
> : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over
to
> : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire.
Its
> : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
> : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
> : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and
if
> : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
> :
> : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines
and
> : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
> :
> : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new
set
> : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
> : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
> : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
> :
> : Thanks in advance for your comments.
> :
> : Bob
> :
> :
>
>
I appreciate all the replies. I'm at the stage where its easier to change
and be safe, rather than try to get by. That's why I asked before I actually
did the "cannot turn back" part of the installation.
In summary the suggestions/admonitions from the group:
1. Do not run the phone wire in the same conduit with the power.
2. Use a larger ground wire, suggested #6 or #8.
Since the phone wire does not have to be in conduit, I'll just run it
outside parallel to the power conduit and hide it behind the conduit. In my
area, that's typically how phone wiring is done (exterior grade phone wire
stabled to the building).
Best regards,
Bob
"Bob Gramza" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:sAvnb.6212$P%[email protected]...
> You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for your
shop. I would run the
> ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries the
current it could burn.
> "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and
kept up
> : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
longer
> : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
> : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
> :
> : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop.
I've
> : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll
run
> : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker
panel
> : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over
to
> : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire.
Its
> : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
> : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
> : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and
if
> : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
> :
> : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines
and
> : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
> :
> : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new
set
> : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
> : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
> : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
> :
> : Thanks in advance for your comments.
> :
> : Bob
> :
> :
>
>
Eric Tonks wrote:
> Don't cheapen out -- drop a 1/2" or better 3/4" conduit next to the power
> line so that you can pull in phone, network, even cable TV or internet
> connection. You don't know what you will want/need down the road but you
> will be thankful for having that extra conduit available, especially if it
> travels underground for any distance.
Exactly. Since your going to be 'up there' anyhow might as well do it now.
My shop has it's own 200 amp service so running power wasn't an issue.
But, all self respecting shops and garages have water, since I had to
trench for the water line I figured I would also run a conduit so I
could operate walk lights switched from both garage and house.
The conduit 'grew' to carrying 3 4 conductor phone lines ( (total 12
wires) just happens I had a spool of wire laying around,) a 4 conductor
16 ga intercom line, CAT-5 LAN, 'TV' cable/ coax, one normal power
circuit for motion lights and one 3 way circuit for the walk lights (all
12 ga)
Funny how these things escalate when one has the 'might as well do it
now' mentality.
Far as I know there are two conditions for running power (115 volt) and
other wires through a conduit, 1) insulation must be rated 600 volts or
higher, and 2) the total fill must not exceed 40%.
Fact, fill should not exceed 40% in any conduit, IIRC.
About my memory, I freely admit it could be faulty. Check your codes.
Better yet call the inspector. I have found inspectors pretty cool
people, (then I'm a homeowner that believes in overbuild) I have yet to
meet an inspector that wasn't more than willing to tell all to someone
with half a clue that there are codes and what they are.
The wireless (G) connection to my shop works...175 foot
from the wireless access point in the house Plus I needed a signal booster
(B)..because no one markets one for G yet ... ???? plus 2 Radio Shack 5 Db
antenna's....on the
Booster... signal varies from good to very good...without the booster or
antenna I got very poor or no signal depending on how many drill bits I had
left on the drill press table... LOL
Bob G.
You pulled Romex through conduit? Ugh! When I worked a lot with industrial
electrial, residential electicians were called "Romex jerkers".
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob Davis wrote:
>
> > pulling it, including some broken wires on long, complex runs. An
> > electrician will practically kiss you when the code says 40% fill and
you
> > go for 25% fill instead.
>
> I can see why. I pulled one single wire (10/3) through 1.5" conduit. A
> total of four bends, and a run of about 75'. I don't think there's any
way
> I could ever get the *tape* back through that conduit to pull a second,
let
> alone actually manage to force another wire into there.
>
> I'm sure pros would fare better. I'm just saying I had no idea what an
> all-consuming bitch it is to pull wire through conduit.
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
>
In article <[email protected]>, Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
>Bob Davis wrote:
>
>> pulling it, including some broken wires on long, complex runs. An
>> electrician will practically kiss you when the code says 40% fill and you
>> go for 25% fill instead.
>
>I can see why. I pulled one single wire (10/3) through 1.5" conduit. A
>total of four bends, and a run of about 75'. I don't think there's any way
>I could ever get the *tape* back through that conduit to pull a second, let
>alone actually manage to force another wire into there.
>
>I'm sure pros would fare better. I'm just saying I had no idea what an
>all-consuming bitch it is to pull wire through conduit.
>
Pulling *wires* through conduit is easy. You were pulling a *cable*. You had a
lot of factors working against you:
a) First and foremost, Romex cable is composed of *solid* wires. There just
isn't a lot of flexibility there. Especially in 10-gauge. It's much easier to
pull *stranded* wire.
b) Bundling wires together in a cable reduces flexibility still further. It's
much easier to pull four individual wires than one 4-wire cable -- even if you
wrap them together at the point where you attach the fish tape, and pull all
four at once, it's still easier than pulling a cable.
c) Cable sheathing isn't especially slippery either. THHN/THWN wire has a
hard, slick outer layer that makes it positively glide through a conduit.
d) Romex tends to twist up as it's paid out, which compounds the friction and
flexure issues.
e) Were you using a wire-pulling lube on the cable?
f) How many pull boxes did you have in the middle of this 75-foot run? It's
probably overkill, but I usually install a pull box every two or three
sections of conduit. It makes life much easier.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Bob,
Some years ago, about 5, I upgraded the service and communications links to my shop and
house.
First rule for the power upgrade was to do the labor myself to save money, but do it under
the direction of a licensed electrician. Let the electrician make the final hookups and
call for the inspection. You'll still save a lot of money, but you'll avoid issues with
the inspector and possibily your insurance company.
For communications, I ran a separate 1" conduit and placed it 15" to 18" away from the
power conduit. (Local phone and cable company recomendation to avoid signal degradation
and interferance.) Since I dug a two foot wide trench, I just put them on opposite sides.
Further, even though your using undergound conduit, use underground, waterproof cables.
I used 12 pair, gel filled for phone/isdn/dsl and heavy ground rated cable for digital
cable service. Both cables were provided by the respective phone and cable companies.
Both installers were grateful for me doing/helping with the installation. I paid only
small reconnect fees.
Good luck,
Myx
"Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I appreciate all the replies. I'm at the stage where its easier to change
> and be safe, rather than try to get by. That's why I asked before I actually
> did the "cannot turn back" part of the installation.
>
> In summary the suggestions/admonitions from the group:
>
> 1. Do not run the phone wire in the same conduit with the power.
> 2. Use a larger ground wire, suggested #6 or #8.
>
> Since the phone wire does not have to be in conduit, I'll just run it
> outside parallel to the power conduit and hide it behind the conduit. In my
> area, that's typically how phone wiring is done (exterior grade phone wire
> stabled to the building).
>
> Best regards,
> Bob
>
"Trent©" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You can find the code on the Internet, Bob.
I've found where I can buy it. But I've googled all over the place looking
for excerpts of it. Any help?
Bob
>> You can find the code on the Internet, Bob.
>
>I've found where I can buy it. But I've googled all over the place looking
>for excerpts of it. Any help?
>
You may find some interpretations on the net but the NEC is a copyrighted NFPA
document and they are very protective of their property. You would have a
better chance of keeping bootleg copies of Win/XP on your site than to keep the
NEC up there for long.
That's consistent with what I've found looking around.
Thanks,
Bob
"Gfretwell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >> You can find the code on the Internet, Bob.
> >
> >I've found where I can buy it. But I've googled all over the place
looking
> >for excerpts of it. Any help?
> >
>
> You may find some interpretations on the net but the NEC is a copyrighted
NFPA
> document and they are very protective of their property. You would have a
> better chance of keeping bootleg copies of Win/XP on your site than to
keep the
> NEC up there for long.
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:23:30 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I work for a major telephone company and part of my job requires me to cover
>excavations that might affect our cables.
You're a CBYD guy?
Barry
Ah, facts I can use. So, since my service is #6 wires (55-60 amps depending
on how you interpret the ratings), I need a #10 ground wire.
Bob
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Ehynb.6274$P%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Bob
Davis" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Thanks for the reply, Bob.
> >
> >Regarding your comment about the neutral, I want to be sure we are
talking
> >apples and apples. My plan is to carry three #6 conductors for 120/240
> >single phase service. The #12 was intended to be just an equipment
ground,
> >not a current carrying wire. Does the code require it to be same size?
My
> >existing panel would be in violation. I think its got 3 #2's coming in
and
> >what appears to be a #10 going to ground rod.
> >
> The 1993 NEC (latest one that I have at hand) says "Copper, aluminum, or
> copper-clad aluminum equipment grounding conductors shall not be less than
> shown in table 250-95." [Article 250-95]
>
> The table gives the following for copper wire:
>
> *** Please note that more recent codes may have more restrictive
requirements.
> In any event, though, this shows that your plan is clearly a code
violation
> even under the 1993 NEC. Your service entrance isn't in compliance either,
but
> it may have been at the time it was installed.
>
> 15A breaker, 14 ga wire
> 20A, 12 ga
> 30 thru 60A, 10ga
> 100A, 8ga
> 200A, 6ga
> [higher amperages omitted]
>
> >Best regards,
> >Bob
> >
> >"Bob Gramza" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:sAvnb.6212$P%[email protected]...
> >> You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for
your
> >shop. I would run the
> >> ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries
the
> >current it could burn.
> >> "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and
> >kept up
> >> : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
> >longer
> >> : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
> >> : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
> >> :
> >> : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop.
> >I've
> >> : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll
> >run
> >> : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker
> >panel
> >> : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and
over
> >to
> >> : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire.
> >Its
> >> : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but
I'm
> >> : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance
with
> >> : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable
and
> >if
> >> : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
> >> :
> >> : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone
lines
> >and
> >> : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
> >> :
> >> : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete
new
> >set
> >> : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer,
band
> >> : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my
woodworking
> >> : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
> >> :
> >> : Thanks in advance for your comments.
> >> :
> >> : Bob
> >> :
> >> :
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:32:48 GMT, "Bob Davis"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I appreciate all the replies. I'm at the stage where its easier to change
>and be safe, rather than try to get by. That's why I asked before I actually
>did the "cannot turn back" part of the installation.
>
>In summary the suggestions/admonitions from the group:
>
>1. Do not run the phone wire in the same conduit with the power.
In this modern world...and unless you have a specific need for a
corded phone...I wouldn't run a phone line at all. Just get a good
cordless phone.
>2. Use a larger ground wire, suggested #6 or #8.
Yes.
But, as Bruce emitted, you should check into your LOCAL codes. The
NEC doesn't need to be adapted by your local governing body...and is
often edited/changed for a particular area.
>Since the phone wire does not have to be in conduit, I'll just run it
>outside parallel to the power conduit and hide it behind the conduit. In my
>area, that's typically how phone wiring is done (exterior grade phone wire
>stabled to the building).
Make sure you run the proper class of wire inside that pipe.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Follow Joan Rivers' example --- get pre-embalmed!
Mark <[email protected]> wrote:
> Doug Miller wrote:
> >
> > False. This is _explicitly_prohibited_ by the NEC: "Communications conductors
> > shall not be placed in any raceway, compartment, junction box, or similar
> > fitting with conductors of electric light or power circuits..." [NEC, Article
> > 800-52(a)(2)c.1]
> I thought I asked the inspector if it was permissible, I thought he said
> yes with 600 volt insulation.
The current NEC does not permit it, and I think that has been
true for a long time, as long as I can remember, but *local*
code does not always follow the NEC. And local inspectors may
interpret the code differently than you might think. It almost
never causes a problem to use a safer practice than the local
inspector requires, but I would never try to convince him/her to
let me squeak by on something.
> I guess all those lighting conductors I ran in the conduit with
> communications conductors are now going to be low voltage operating relays.
I really hope you mean this.
Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:55:38 GMT, "Bob Davis"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I appreciate the wisdom of your remarks, Eric. Years ago, I had an
>experience working as lead engineer on a plant reconstruction. The
>electrical foreman taught me a lesson well remembered. I was busy
>specifying and buying materials and watching the budget. He told me to
>always buy conduit one or two sizes bigger than the code called for. He
>told me I'd eat up my dollars paying for labor soaping the cables and
>pulling it, including some broken wires on long, complex runs. An
>electrician will practically kiss you when the code says 40% fill and you go
>for 25% fill instead.
>
>It seems silly that I know so much about the heavy stuff (high voltage,
>motor control centers, etc) and I'm as dumb as a skunk on residential
>wiring. I wish I could find my old copy of the code. It would be kind of
>fun to go through it for old times sake.
>
>Bob
You can find the code on the Internet, Bob.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Follow Joan Rivers' example --- get pre-embalmed!
Bob Davis wrote:
> pulling it, including some broken wires on long, complex runs. An
> electrician will practically kiss you when the code says 40% fill and you
> go for 25% fill instead.
I can see why. I pulled one single wire (10/3) through 1.5" conduit. A
total of four bends, and a run of about 75'. I don't think there's any way
I could ever get the *tape* back through that conduit to pull a second, let
alone actually manage to force another wire into there.
I'm sure pros would fare better. I'm just saying I had no idea what an
all-consuming bitch it is to pull wire through conduit.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:40:30 GMT, "Bob G" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>It has been well over 10 years ..closer to 20 I guess..since I built my shop
>..and honestly I do remember I ran 4 a wire telephone line inside the 2 inch
>pvc line I ran to the
>shop (used indivifual 6 guage wire for the electrical )...
>
>But I am curious as to why everyone said not to run the phone line inside
>the same pvc... Mine has been working just fine all these years.. ...
Hypothetical...and almost impossible...but...
Rodent gets into pipe...eats thru hot wire and phone wire in same
location...they touch...yer on the phone.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Follow Joan Rivers' example --- get pre-embalmed!
What are you guys with 100 amp feeds doing in your shop?!!!!???? I can't
buy enough tools to suck that much power, even if run at the same time. If
my math is right, it would take 8 3 hp motors running loaded at the same
time to approach loading it up. I sure don't want the electricity bill
for that.
<g>
"Dennis M. O'Connor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The 100-amp 220V feed to our shop is in conduit,
You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for your shop. I would run the
ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries the current it could burn.
"Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
: Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and kept up
: with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no longer
: work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
: residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
:
: I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop. I've
: settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll run
: all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker panel
: outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over to
: the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire. Its
: cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
: concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
: National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and if
: its noisy, just abandon it in place.
:
: If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines and
: power in the same conduit, please let me know.
:
: Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new set
: of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
: saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
: friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
:
: Thanks in advance for your comments.
:
: Bob
:
:
I appreciate the wisdom of your remarks, Eric. Years ago, I had an
experience working as lead engineer on a plant reconstruction. The
electrical foreman taught me a lesson well remembered. I was busy
specifying and buying materials and watching the budget. He told me to
always buy conduit one or two sizes bigger than the code called for. He
told me I'd eat up my dollars paying for labor soaping the cables and
pulling it, including some broken wires on long, complex runs. An
electrician will practically kiss you when the code says 40% fill and you go
for 25% fill instead.
It seems silly that I know so much about the heavy stuff (high voltage,
motor control centers, etc) and I'm as dumb as a skunk on residential
wiring. I wish I could find my old copy of the code. It would be kind of
fun to go through it for old times sake.
Bob
"Eric Tonks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Don't cheapen out -- drop a 1/2" or better 3/4" conduit next to the power
> line so that you can pull in phone, network, even cable TV or internet
> connection. You don't know what you will want/need down the road but you
> will be thankful for having that extra conduit available, especially if it
> travels underground for any distance.
> PS. If you are using PVC conduit, the voice/data lines should not be
> attached to or very close to the power conduit -- vinyl does not provide
the
> shielding that steel conduit would -- keep them a couple of inches or more
> apart.
>
> "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I appreciate all the replies. I'm at the stage where its easier to
change
> > and be safe, rather than try to get by. That's why I asked before I
> actually
> > did the "cannot turn back" part of the installation.
> >
> > In summary the suggestions/admonitions from the group:
> >
> > 1. Do not run the phone wire in the same conduit with the power.
> > 2. Use a larger ground wire, suggested #6 or #8.
> >
> > Since the phone wire does not have to be in conduit, I'll just run it
> > outside parallel to the power conduit and hide it behind the conduit.
In
> my
> > area, that's typically how phone wiring is done (exterior grade phone
wire
> > stabled to the building).
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bob
> >
> > "Bob Gramza" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:sAvnb.6212$P%[email protected]...
> > > You cannot run the telephone lines in the same conduit as the AC for
> your
> > shop. I would run the
> > > ground wire as a #6 also. If the neutral fails and the ground carries
> the
> > current it could burn.
> > > "Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > : Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and
> > kept up
> > > : with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
> > longer
> > > : work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
> > > : residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
> > > :
> > > : I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging
shop.
> > I've
> > > : settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground.
I'll
> > run
> > > : all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing
breaker
> > panel
> > > : outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and
over
> > to
> > > : the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type
wire.
> > Its
> > > : cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but
> I'm
> > > : concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance
> with
> > > : National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable
> and
> > if
> > > : its noisy, just abandon it in place.
> > > :
> > > : If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone
lines
> > and
> > > : power in the same conduit, please let me know.
> > > :
> > > : Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete
new
> > set
> > > : of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer,
> band
> > > : saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my
> woodworking
> > > : friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
> > > :
> > > : Thanks in advance for your comments.
> > > :
> > > : Bob
> > > :
> > > :
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Duh! I usually fail to remember the library. The internet has ruined me.
I'll check it out.
Thanks,
Bob
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My local Public Library has several copies.
Bob,
The ground wire cannot be less than two wire sizes smaller than the current
carrying wire - #6 = #10 ground minimum.
You CAN run the tele wire in the same conduit BUT the insulation rating of
the cables/wires has to match the highest rated wire e.g. 600v insulation
for power wiring will require 600v insulation for the tele wire (I don't
think that is readily available) and noise from the power wiring may
crosstalk on the tele wire. I agree to run it separate.
Also, modern telephones only require two wires, tip and ring (R&G). I would
run 4 though, you may want to have two line or DSL out there some day.
Hope this helps,
Erik
"Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and kept
up
> with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
longer
> work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
> residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
>
> I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop.
I've
> settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll run
> all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker
panel
> outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over to
> the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire. Its
> cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
> concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
> National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and
if
> its noisy, just abandon it in place.
>
> If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines and
> power in the same conduit, please let me know.
>
> Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new set
> of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
> saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
> friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments.
>
> Bob
>
>
If you use twisted pair for your phone line it won't be bothered by the power.
That is also true of CAT5 and LANs. The design on a NIC rejects virtually all
"common mode" noise. If telephone lines were bothered by 60hz they certainly
wouldn't be putting it on poles next to fat transformers and 13kv cables. The
secret is twisted pair tho. Straight through (red,green,yellow,black) will pick
up everything from adjacent phone line crosstalk to your local radio station.
As for the EGC (ground) the other posters are on point, #10 minimum and you
want #8 min to a ground rod. Anything smaller than #4 requires physical
protection.
"Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Years ago, I actually owned a copy of the National Electric Code and kept
up
> with it, as an electrical engineer in an industrial situation. I no
longer
> work as an electrical engineer and I've never had to know much about
> residential applications, so I have some dumb questions.
>
> I'm running a new power feed and two phone lines to my emerging shop.
I've
> settled on running individual #6 power lines with a #12 ground. I'll run
> all of this through a 1" PVC conduit to get from the existing breaker
panel
> outside to a point where I can bring the wires into the attic and over to
> the garage shop. I also will have a 4 conductor telephone-type wire. Its
> cleaner to run the phone line in the same conduit as the power, but I'm
> concerned about two things - electrical noise pickup and compliance with
> National electric code. As to the noise, I can always run the cable and
if
> its noisy, just abandon it in place.
>
> If you have any knowledge about NEC with regard to running phone lines and
> power in the same conduit, please let me know.
>
> Yes, this is related to woodworking. The power will run a complete new set
> of tools - table saw, dust collector, jointer, drill press, planer, band
> saw, and coffee pot. The phone line will be used to call my woodworking
> friends when I get stuck with a problem in the shop.
>
> Thanks in advance for your comments.
>
> Bob
>
>
You must have a separate, full sized neutral, and a ground. The neutral and
ground must have separate busses, and the neutral buss must be separate and
insulated from the case of the breaker housing. One of the busses is
probably already insulated, and has to be grounded, if need be, with a
separate thingies.
--
Jim in NC
"Bob Gramza" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Eaxnb.6247$P%[email protected]...
> The other gentleman was correct in that it is not a current carrying wire.
It can be a smaller. I do
> not know the gauge size the NEC calls for though. My book is long gone.
Wrongo. If it is the first panel, the neutral does not need to be as big as
the hot conductors. When it is a sub panel, it has to have 3 full sized
conductors, and a separate ground, separate busses on the second panel,
neutral insulated.
It does not have to make sense to you. It is the code, remember? <g>
--
Jim in NC
>Wrongo. If it is the first panel, the neutral does not need to be as big as
>the hot conductors. When it is a sub panel, it has to have 3 full sized
>conductors, and a separate ground, separate busses on the second panel,
>neutral insulated.
>
>It does not have to make sense to you. It is the code, remember? <g>
>--
>Jim in NC
>
Actually if you read 220.22 you only have to size the neutral to the
"unbalanced load". If your sub panel is all 240v breakers with no neutral load
you don't even need a neutral. As an inspector I would demand that the neutral
was sized to the largest total number of single pole breakers on either phase.
That could easily be bigger than the required size of the feeder "hots" though
if this was a general lighting panel, loaded with single pole breakers so you
default to "equal size".
On the other hand if this is basically a 240v shop with a couple 120v circuits
you could downsize the neutral. I still advise against it. The only logical
reason you would do it would be a conduit fill issue with an already "in place"
raceway system, you didn't want to dig up. Wire is cheap. The same is true with
choosing a 3 wire feeder system over a 4 wire system. Lots of things that might
work and may even be "hold your nose" legal are not the best choice.
"Bob Davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message . I wish I could
find my old copy of the code. It would be kind of
> fun to go through it for old times sake.
>
> Bob
Don't bother <g> The new code bears little resemblance to the current
code.
--
Jim in NC
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Bob Davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Thanks, Myx.
> >
> >I think I miscommunicated about where I am running this. None of its
> >underground. The original wiring to my 3 car garage went through the
> >ceiling of the first floor from the opposite side of the house (breaker
> >panel). There is no way to add wire through that ceiling, since its a 2
> >story house. So I'm bringing the wire from the breaker box (interior
closet)
> >through an exterior wall and into a conduit that will run along the back
> >side of the house toward the garage.
> >
>
> One additional comment/recommendataion:
>
> You mentioned using PVC conduit. A lot of PVC, given exposure to
> sunlight, degrades over time. This is a potential problem 'several years
> from now'. Also, if it's 'on the surface', it's exposed to all the other
> "slings and arrows of outrageous fortune", as it were. The "do it right"
> approach is _ridgid_ conduit, w/ waterproof fittings.
Gads, more bad advise. Elect. conduit is UV approved, and no problem. Use
glue and have a first class setup.
--
Jim in NC
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:H3Bnb.6300$P%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Erik Ahrens"
<erikl_nospam_@_nospam_syserco.com> wrote:
> >Bob,
> >
> >The ground wire cannot be less than two wire sizes smaller than the
current
> >carrying wire - #6 = #10 ground minimum.
Actually, I just read it in the NEC a few days ago and now can't find where
it was stated. When I find it (and my mind) I'll attempt to clarify.
> False. Ground wire size depends on the rating of the overcurrent
protection
> device, and is specified by Table 290-95. [NEC, Article 290-95]
>
> >You CAN run the tele wire in the same conduit
>
> False. This is _explicitly_prohibited_ by the NEC: "Communications
conductors
> shall not be placed in any raceway, compartment, junction box, or similar
> fitting with conductors of electric light or power circuits..." [NEC,
Article
> 800-52(a)(2)c.1]
Yes, you are right! I was thinking of running different voltages in the same
conduit. My apologies.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:39:00 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > >Now it's going to cost them dearly to rebury the cable (it still
> > >hasn't been done). Had they ran the wire in a conduit, it probably
wouldn't
> > >have been damaged, and it would be a lot less costly to pull in a new
wire if it
> > >became necessary.
> >
> > Not really true.
> >
> > Most phone companies, and CATV, for that matter, now use a machine
> > that slits the ground, places the cable, and folds the turf back in
> > place. It's fast, easy and inexpensive, compared to installing
> > conduit. The delay may involve an outside contractor's scheduling.
> > My father waited 6 months for a cable TV wire to get reburied.
>
> I work for a major telephone company and part of my job requires me to
cover
> excavations that might affect our cables. I've been doing this now for
over four
> years, covering an area encompassing the entire western third of New York
state (from
> 20 miles east of Rochester, NY to the Pennsylvania border). Although I
know these
> devices exist, I have never encountered any contractor using one.
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
>
>
Common for phone, and cable in western NC.
--
Jim in NC
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob Davis wrote:
>
> > pulling it, including some broken wires on long, complex runs. An
> > electrician will practically kiss you when the code says 40% fill and
you
> > go for 25% fill instead.
>
> I can see why. I pulled one single wire (10/3) through 1.5" conduit. A
> total of four bends, and a run of about 75'. I don't think there's any
way
> I could ever get the *tape* back through that conduit to pull a second,
let
> alone actually manage to force another wire into there.
>
> I'm sure pros would fare better. I'm just saying I had no idea what an
> all-consuming bitch it is to pull wire through conduit.
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
You should be using individual wire, not romex. As a matter of fact, there
is something in the code that reduces the amount of wire that can be used if
it is romex, as I recall, but I don't remember exactly what it was.
Temperature rise, or something.
--
Jim in NC
> As a matter of fact, there
>is something in the code that reduces the amount of wire that can be used if
>it is romex, as I recall, but I don't remember exactly what it was.
Cables pulled into conduit has to be computed as a conductor using the widest
dimension as the diameter.
If you twist the cable a few times the widest dimension IS the diameter.
12-2 Romex won't "fit" in 1/2" conduit because of this. If you have ever tried
to pull it through a few bends you would agree. Most inspectors will ignore
this for short sections of conduit used for supplimentry protection, like down
the wall of your garage or shop. 3 wire with ground is usually smaller than 2
wire in the computation since it is closer to round with a smaller diameter.
"j.b. miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OK, here's my fiew on this. In Canada the local code says it's OK to have
> the 'wires in the same trench, as long as they're in separate conduits.
> So in one trench, I put water line( good 5/8 garden hose),in 4" weeper
> conduit,backfilled 6 inshes,then 100A service feed,again in 4" NON weeper
> conductor piping,backfilled 6",then another 4" nonweeping conductor in
which
> I run TV coax and 2 CAT5 cables,backfilled 6 inches with gravel,then good
> topsoil.
> The CAT5 wires are for phone lines and alarm system.
> Sure it's overkill,but the big conduits give me EASY access for 'upgrade'
or
> repairs and everything is now in the shop IF I want it in the future...
> hth
> jay
>
>
Power lines should be buried at least 3 feet.
--
Jim in NC
So how far away is your shop? Is it line of site? Wireless is amazing and
they have wireless repeaters to amplify the signal that don't cost much.
I'm placing a repeater between my (network) router and the shop and setting
up a custom stand for my laptop. I work as a consultant and have to check
email frequently waiting on jobs, so I might as well being working in the
shop with easy access to email.
Bob
"Bob G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I do wish I had run a Cat 5 cable down to the shop also...BUT back then I
> had never heard of Cat 5 and a 300 baud dial up account was ok a 1200 baud
> dial up was "bitching fast"... But the wireless connection to a laptop
does
> work...
Doug Miller wrote:
>
> False. This is _explicitly_prohibited_ by the NEC: "Communications conductors
> shall not be placed in any raceway, compartment, junction box, or similar
> fitting with conductors of electric light or power circuits..." [NEC, Article
> 800-52(a)(2)c.1]
Thanks Doug.
I thought I asked the inspector if it was permissible, I thought he said
yes with 600 volt insulation.
I guess I should ask again.
I guess all those lighting conductors I ran in the conduit with
communications conductors are now going to be low voltage operating relays.
Uh, I got your point Bruce, though its a bit exaggerated. Your example
won't even be 40 amps and just for a second or two. The motors will be about
22-25 amps. Voltage drop might be a consideration over a long run, but a
100-150' is not a long run as far as voltage drop is concerned.
Heck, I find myself being argumentative and I'll get off the tone. The cost
is not the issue. I ran what I thought was ample. But I'm running a hobby
shop in my home in a city neighborhood. I guess that's the main difference.
I just can't see spending money on something I'll never come anywhere near
using.
Bob
<BRuce> wrote in message news:1067453604.741196@sj-nntpcache-3...
> well lets see most shops are in the garage... a 3HP TS and a 2HP DC and
> the air compressor starts while they are both running and for some
> reason you have the lights on, the chest freezer starts, the wife opens
> the garage door... Thats not 100Amps not even 80Amps which is the max
> you should draw but the voltage drop on smaller conductors might cause
> issues. As another poster said "wire is cheap".
>
> BRuce
>
> Bob Davis wrote:
>
> > What are you guys with 100 amp feeds doing in your shop?!!!!???? I
can't
> > buy enough tools to suck that much power, even if run at the same time.
If
> > my math is right, it would take 8 3 hp motors running loaded at the same
> > time to approach loading it up. I sure don't want the electricity
bill
> > for that.
> >
> > <g>
> >
> >
> > "Dennis M. O'Connor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> >>The 100-amp 220V feed to our shop is in conduit,
> >
> >
> >
>