ebonizing maple

Joe wrote:
> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple? If
> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you used
> penetrate?
>
> tia,
>
> jc
>
>
I have used water soluble anilyne dyes on soft maple several times and
think it's excellent. I first wet the wood, let dry, then sand with 220
before I apply the dye. Sanding the raised grain before applying the dye
lets you sand less aggressively after you've dyed the wood. I apply
oil/varnish/terps or shellac as a top coat and it seems to hold up well.

Rick

"charlieb" wrote:

> WAAAAY back in The Old Days (Daze?) - "drafting" was done
> with inking pens and ink - on vellum.

Tell me about it.

Spent almost a year bent over a drafting board "inking" drawings as
part of a co-op education program.

Didn't have fancy pens to do the job either, simply a split tip pen
that you adjusted line width with a thumb screw and filled with an eye
dropper from the India ink bottle.

Buy that time, ink drawings were pretty much a relic in general
industry; however, if nothing else, it taught you patience.

Lew

On 16 Jan, 17:43, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'm going to try it and some other suggestions as well.

If I cared seriously about this project, then I'd probably regard it
as an excuse to try out some better eboniser recipes.

I've never had any luck with tea as a source of tannins, and I can't
get the right sort of Japanese persimmons to use them either. As a
better iron-black stain can be made from the tannates than from the
unstable oxides, I'd still want to try it though.

So this sounds like a starting point of vinegar, van dyke brown
solution and steel wool. I'd be interested if anyone has tried it.

Van dyke is an old recipe for a walnut brown pigment, extracted from
walnut husks. It's easy to DIY yourself (in Autumn, from green walnut
husks) but it's a filthy proces and the stuff is easily and cheaply
available commercially as nice well-behaved crystals. Just dissolve
them in a bit of hot water. This dye also has a long history of being
light-stable and reliable. It's one of the few stain ingredients I
actually use - I'm no fan of the modern synthetic ones.

As always with the vinegar + steel wool recipe, weight the steel wool
down below the surface. Any air contamination directly onto it turns
it brown instead of black (ferric oxide, rather than ferrous oxide).
Discard if it looks off-colour, brownish or mouldy.

"Smaug Ichorfang" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Jan 15, 4:14 pm, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple?
>>> I
>> f
>>> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you
>>> used penetrate?
>>>
>>> tia,
>>>
>>> jc
>>
>> You might dissolve some steel wool in vinegar
>> and try on a piece of maple scrap.
>>
>> Smitty
>
> I don't think this will work on maple, I could be wrong though. There
> are two ways of creating an "ebonized" finish in woods like walnut and
> oak - chemical reaction and dye. By dissolving shreaded steel wool in
> white vinegar, wait until it dissolves, and "painting" this on the wood,
> a chemical reaction takes place between the iron and the tannin in the
> wood resulting in a dark purple, dark brown, or black color (actual
> color depends upon species of wood and its tannin content). The other
> way is to stain the wood with a dye. There are several things that a
> google search revealed, shoe polish, India ink, commercial stains, and
> what I use for small projects - a Marks-A-Lot permenent marker. You
> might even be able to use a fabric dye (Ritz) dissolved in alcohol. The
> best resules will be from a non-pigmented dye/stain (a liquid that has
> no solid particles - everything is dissolved). This will penetrate
> further into the wood that a stain that has pigment particles that will
> tend to be trapped on the surface of the wood.
>
> So to specificly answer your question - I've used the steel wool/vinegar
> method on walnut and didn't think it was dark enough. It raised the
> grain but went deep enough that I could sand the fuzzies down with 320
> and did not sand through the color. The marker worked best giving aa
> deep black color. Since the marker used alcohol it raised the grain
> much less, but I still sanded and did not go through the color. Sorry I
> don't have better recomendations for maple.



Can you try what we've mentioned on scraps and report back to the list?

You can bet on it ;-)

jc

Wed, Jan 16, 2008, 2:14am (EST+5) [email protected] (Joe) do5th query:
Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple?
<snip>

Google. Eboize wood.



JOAT
10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President
- Bumper Sticker
I don't have a problem with a woman president - just not Hillary.

On 17 Jan, 11:25, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I think I'm
> going to be an expert on this by the time I'm through.

In that case, keep your eyes open for a copy of Sam Allen's "Classic
Finishing Techniques"

On Jan 15, 9:14=A0pm, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple? =A0I=
f
> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you used
> penetrate?
>
> tia,
>
> jc

I've used black transtint dye (with water or alcohol, i forget which)
on an oak speaker stand, and got outstanding results. Very black--but
I don't know how deep the dye went. I finished it with Deft from a
spray can.

"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 16 Jan, 11:05, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The ferrous acetate method works only on high-tannin content woods
>
> Steel wool + vinegar will often give you a black stain on maple or
> softwoods too. What you're seeing is black ferrous oxide, rather than
> the acetates or tannates. It's usable on indoor work (try it first),
> but has a risk of turning brown (ferric oxide / red rust) if it's kept
> wet.

Thanks Andy. This particular use doesn't stand much chance of getting wet.
I'm going to try it and some other suggestions as well.

jc

"India Ink" is too general a term for dark black, waterproof
ink. What you may want to look for is a black "drafting ink".
WAAAAY back in The Old Days (Daze?) - "drafting" was done
with inking pens and ink - on vellum. Special inking pens were
invented for "drawing" consistent line widths that used a small
metal tube through which the ink would flow when the tip of
the tube contacted the vellum. A small, weighted, wire whose
diameter with slightly smaller than the ID of the metal tube
would limit the amount of flowing ink - and help keep the inside
of the tube clean since the "drafting ink" had a high solids
content (very finely ground pigment) in a fast drying clear
liquid. (You can still get Rapid-O-Graph inking pens - but the
fine line one's are E X - phreakin' - P E N S I V E these days.

Design Higgins WaterProof Drawing Ink 4415 "For use with all
art and drafting instruments and brushes. Superb for
transparent washes. . . . Not launderproof"

I asked a knowledgeable sales person of an arts supply store
what he thought was the best ink for "ebonizing" light colored
woods. He walked right to the drawing ink specified above.
NOT "invexpensive" - 26 milliliters /cc for about $4 - but a
little goes a long ways.

Here's a link to a closeup of a sample - on maple.

http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/Tempwood/Tempwood.html

charlie b

Joe wrote:

> Wow! Thanks for the info and the photo Charlie.
>
> Gratefully,

No problem Joe. Bought this stuff to ebonize some maple
finials I'm doing for next year's christmas ornaments. Your
question got me to actually check it out on a Two Arcs
sample I'd done while playing with Multi Axis ideas Barbara
Dill's article on the subject in the Fall 07 American Woodturner
magazine. Surprisingly, the results are very similar to what
I got with black felt tip pens - though being able to brush it
on will lt me get into tight spots a felt tip couldn't reach.

Unlike felt tips, this ink raises the grain just a little, producing
a matt finish - the felt tip being more like satin/semi-gloss.
May use ink on some african blackwood stuff and maybe
walnut as well.

Thanks for the incentive to get off my ass and try the
stuff out.

charlie b

"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wed, Jan 16, 2008, 2:14am (EST+5) [email protected] (Joe) do5th query:
> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple?
> <snip>
>
> Google. Eboize wood.
>
>
>
> JOAT
> 10 Out Of 10 Terrorists Prefer Hillary For President
> - Bumper Sticker
> I don't have a problem with a woman president - just not Hillary.
>

For pete's sake JOAT, is that the only friggin answer you give???? Usenet
is a CONVERSATION! You must be a real delight around the water cooler. If
everything all anyone wants is to google, the rec wouldn't be here. For
someone who posts "just dags" as much as you do, a reasonable thinking
person would wonder why you enable everyone's googling disability by making
all your 'inspiration' posts. And before you even think it, I'm not saying
I don't like those. To the contrary, I've found some useful stuff there.
The point is that your constant dags answers in that context come off as
being extremely hypocritical.

If you don't have a method THAT YOU'VE TRIED and like, keep your dags to
yourself.

sheesh.

On Jan 15, 4:14=A0pm, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple? =A0I=
f
> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you used
> penetrate?
>
> tia,
>
> jc

You might dissolve some steel wool in vinegar
and try on a piece of maple scrap.

Smitty

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jan 15, 9:14 pm, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple? If
> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you used
> penetrate?
>
> tia,
>
> jc

I've used black transtint dye (with water or alcohol, i forget which)
on an oak speaker stand, and got outstanding results. Very black--but
I don't know how deep the dye went. I finished it with Deft from a
spray can.

Thanks eag,

Depth of penetration is going to be a concern in this app. Oddly, I'm
looking for less penetration. Tough to explain, but I'll post pics of the
project when completed. I think I have a lot of experimentation to do.


jc

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Jan 15, 4:14 pm, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple? If
> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you used
> penetrate?
>
> tia,
>
> jc

You might dissolve some steel wool in vinegar
and try on a piece of maple scrap.

Smitty


I think that only works on Oak.

"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 16 Jan, 17:43, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm going to try it and some other suggestions as well.
>
> If I cared seriously about this project, then I'd probably regard it
> as an excuse to try out some better eboniser recipes.
>
> I've never had any luck with tea as a source of tannins, and I can't
> get the right sort of Japanese persimmons to use them either. As a
> better iron-black stain can be made from the tannates than from the
> unstable oxides, I'd still want to try it though.
>
> So this sounds like a starting point of vinegar, van dyke brown
> solution and steel wool. I'd be interested if anyone has tried it.
>
> Van dyke is an old recipe for a walnut brown pigment, extracted from
> walnut husks. It's easy to DIY yourself (in Autumn, from green walnut
> husks) but it's a filthy proces and the stuff is easily and cheaply
> available commercially as nice well-behaved crystals. Just dissolve
> them in a bit of hot water. This dye also has a long history of being
> light-stable and reliable. It's one of the few stain ingredients I
> actually use - I'm no fan of the modern synthetic ones.
>
> As always with the vinegar + steel wool recipe, weight the steel wool
> down below the surface. Any air contamination directly onto it turns
> it brown instead of black (ferric oxide, rather than ferrous oxide).
> Discard if it looks off-colour, brownish or mouldy.

Thanks again Andy. This project is definately worth it, so I think I'm
going to be an expert on this by the time I'm through.

Joe

charlieb wrote:
> > Design Higgins WaterProof Drawing Ink 4415 "For use with all
> art and drafting instruments and brushes. Superb for
> transparent washes. . . . Not launderproof"
>
> I asked a knowledgeable sales person of an arts supply store
> what he thought was the best ink for "ebonizing" light colored
> woods. He walked right to the drawing ink specified above.
> NOT "invexpensive" - 26 milliliters /cc for about $4 - but a
> little goes a long ways.

That's exactly the stuff I get that works.

I won't mention the stuff that didn't. <G>

"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple? If
>> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you used
>> penetrate?
>>
>
> The ferrous acetate method works only on high-tannin content woods, as
> mentioned. Some have added tannin with tea baths and then the acetate.
> Works like nothing on hard maple.
>
> Dye is the answer, and water-based my preference, so it gets a bit farther
> in before its ride evaporates. You can still see the grain through two
> coats, but it is black. Not 100-grit black, but two strokes of 320 deep
> maybe.

George,

Since I'm going for less penetration, would alcohol based dye be better in
your opinion?

jc

I used Bob Flexner's method on some oak. (I am finishing the pieces at this
moment). He calls for black aniline dye followed by black pigment stain. I
used both and these pieces are VERY black. The test pieces that I did look
really good when I clear coated them.

SteveP.

"Smaug Ichorfang" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Boy, that brought back memories, charlie. I spent many hours bent over a
> drafting desk in my younger days. *Somewhere* in all my stuff I still
> have
> a set of Kohinor (sp?) Rapid-o-graph pens. On my drafting desk, I've got
> a
> pair of K&E Leroy lettering "bugs" with pens and several lettering guides.
> I found dried up bottles of Higgins Black India ink and some not-yet-dead
> bottles of Windsor and Newton colored inks (I used the colored inks for
> airbrush art). I found the case to my Dietzgen compass set, but it was
> empty (pencil and inking set). Gotta do a SERIOUS clean-up this Spring!
>
> More to the topic - I tried the vinegar and steel wool method this weekend
> on maple. It made the wood wet and smell kinda nice, but no staining.

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Jan 15, 4:14 pm, "Joe" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple?
>>  I
> f
>> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you
>> used penetrate?
>>
>> tia,
>>
>> jc
>
> You might dissolve some steel wool in vinegar
> and try on a piece of maple scrap.
>
> Smitty

I don't think this will work on maple, I could be wrong though. There
are two ways of creating an "ebonized" finish in woods like walnut and
oak - chemical reaction and dye. By dissolving shreaded steel wool in
white vinegar, wait until it dissolves, and "painting" this on the wood,
a chemical reaction takes place between the iron and the tannin in the
wood resulting in a dark purple, dark brown, or black color (actual
color depends upon species of wood and its tannin content). The other
way is to stain the wood with a dye. There are several things that a
google search revealed, shoe polish, India ink, commercial stains, and
what I use for small projects - a Marks-A-Lot permenent marker. You
might even be able to use a fabric dye (Ritz) dissolved in alcohol. The
best resules will be from a non-pigmented dye/stain (a liquid that has
no solid particles - everything is dissolved). This will penetrate
further into the wood that a stain that has pigment particles that will
tend to be trapped on the surface of the wood.

So to specificly answer your question - I've used the steel wool/vinegar
method on walnut and didn't think it was dark enough. It raised the
grain but went deep enough that I could sand the fuzzies down with 320
and did not sand through the color. The marker worked best giving aa
deep black color. Since the marker used alcohol it raised the grain
much less, but I still sanded and did not go through the color. Sorry I
don't have better recomendations for maple. Can you try what we've
mentioned on scraps and report back to the list?

Boy, that brought back memories, charlie. I spent many hours bent over a
drafting desk in my younger days. *Somewhere* in all my stuff I still have
a set of Kohinor (sp?) Rapid-o-graph pens. On my drafting desk, I've got a
pair of K&E Leroy lettering "bugs" with pens and several lettering guides.
I found dried up bottles of Higgins Black India ink and some not-yet-dead
bottles of Windsor and Newton colored inks (I used the colored inks for
airbrush art). I found the case to my Dietzgen compass set, but it was
empty (pencil and inking set). Gotta do a SERIOUS clean-up this Spring!

More to the topic - I tried the vinegar and steel wool method this weekend
on maple. It made the wood wet and smell kinda nice, but no staining.

"charlieb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "India Ink" is too general a term for dark black, waterproof
> ink. What you may want to look for is a black "drafting ink".
> WAAAAY back in The Old Days (Daze?) - "drafting" was done
> with inking pens and ink - on vellum. Special inking pens were
> invented for "drawing" consistent line widths that used a small
> metal tube through which the ink would flow when the tip of
> the tube contacted the vellum. A small, weighted, wire whose
> diameter with slightly smaller than the ID of the metal tube
> would limit the amount of flowing ink - and help keep the inside
> of the tube clean since the "drafting ink" had a high solids
> content (very finely ground pigment) in a fast drying clear
> liquid. (You can still get Rapid-O-Graph inking pens - but the
> fine line one's are E X - phreakin' - P E N S I V E these days.
>
> Design Higgins WaterProof Drawing Ink 4415 "For use with all
> art and drafting instruments and brushes. Superb for
> transparent washes. . . . Not launderproof"
>
> I asked a knowledgeable sales person of an arts supply store
> what he thought was the best ink for "ebonizing" light colored
> woods. He walked right to the drawing ink specified above.
> NOT "invexpensive" - 26 milliliters /cc for about $4 - but a
> little goes a long ways.
>
> Here's a link to a closeup of a sample - on maple.
>
> http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/Tempwood/Tempwood.html
>
> charlie b

Wow! Thanks for the info and the photo Charlie.

Gratefully,

Joe C.

"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple? If
> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you used
> penetrate?
>

The ferrous acetate method works only on high-tannin content woods, as
mentioned. Some have added tannin with tea baths and then the acetate.
Works like nothing on hard maple.

Dye is the answer, and water-based my preference, so it gets a bit farther
in before its ride evaporates. You can still see the grain through two
coats, but it is black. Not 100-grit black, but two strokes of 320 deep
maybe.

"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> George,
>
> Since I'm going for less penetration, would alcohol based dye be better in
> your opinion?
>
Makes sense. The alcohol would evaporate faster. I've found alcohol dyes
to be fairly shallow, though better than pigment stains.

It's a push/pull if you don't do a fuzz set and sand prior to application,
because you'll have to defuzz, taking off the shallow color. I still like
two coats.

> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple?

I've gotten excellent results on several species of wood with black
leather dye. Any shoe repair shop should be able to provide it.

Joel

On 16 Jan, 11:05, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:

> The ferrous acetate method works only on high-tannin content woods

Steel wool + vinegar will often give you a black stain on maple or
softwoods too. What you're seeing is black ferrous oxide, rather than
the acetates or tannates. It's usable on indoor work (try it first),
but has a risk of turning brown (ferric oxide / red rust) if it's kept
wet.

Joe wrote:
> Can anyone offer some help on the best method(s) for ebonizing maple? If
> you've actually done this, how deeply does the ebonizing method you used
> penetrate?

I've used India Ink on ash and maple, but have no idea how deeply it
penetrates. It is _black_, though. I buy it in the pen aisle at Staples.

All inks are not created equal, so try the one you buy on scrap.