"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> <http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=51101&category=51&abspage=1&ccurrency=2&SID=>
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/5ed72
>>
>>
>> Why in the world are these brackets so expensive?
>
> Because the metal ones are more expensive to manufacture than the plastic
> ones Rockler sells.
>
> Can they possibly
>> be worth it?
>
> IMHO a piece of plywood cut triangle shaped with a few holes cut through
> for the clamps to fit into works pretty well.
I can't imagine anything working better. I use the same setup.
SH - The "scrap is cheap" woodworker
> In my line of work METAL I could turn those things out by the 100's if I
> had too. They are so easy to make. We have a laser so I could cut them
> accurately......I agree that a piece of plywood cut in a triangle wood do
> the same thing. I could make the aluminum ones for less than 10.00 a
> pair.....Brian
That'll cover your material costs. What about labour, distribution, and
marketing, staffing, and general business overhead?
> A premium perhaps Edwin, but $25.00 is far past premium. That's
> ridiculous.
> There's just no material cost there and there's nothing spectacular about
> getting them square. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I sure
> wouldn't put up that money for something that simple. But then again,
> that's me.
The material costs are indeed minimal but don't forget that these items are
not just stamped aluminum. The faces are milled square. Think you could make
them to the same level of accuracy and make a profit at $12.50 per item? And
out of that $12.50 comes labour, tooling, business overhead, distribution,
and retail profits.
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:29:23 -0600, John <[email protected]> wrote:
>Errors are CUMULATIVE, so why not minimize the errors that you can,
>such as in the braces, straight edges, etc.
Then why not make them accurate to 0.00002"? Answer...same reason.
No they are not...I put them up to a machine aquare and they are
square....Brian
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hey Brian, I was looking at the angles you posted on abpw.
> Are the legs on yours milled like on the Lee Valley ones?
>
> UA100
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 08:28:44 -0500, "Robin Lee" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:RYZEd.21033$Wo.10504@lakeread08...
>> I have allready made some out of 11ga steel and they work great...But I
>wood
>> not spend that kinda money on them...my $.02 ......Brian
>> "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>
>Brian -
>
>Completely understand - but we have to leave the value judgement up to the
>customer...there are lots more people with $10 bills (well, $12.25 really),
>than there are with the desire to build their own braces.
>
>The "make vs buy" equation is different for everyone.
>
>Cheers -
>
>Rob
Rob-
don't get me wrong... if you have customers for the item at that price
I totally support your giving warehouse space, catalog space, etc to
the item. I'm highly unlikely to buy it myself, but if someone else
wants to, let 'em.
I can actually see a slight advantage to these over homemade ones-
that glue might release easier. otherwise, it seems vastly easier,
cheaper and more convenient to make them out of scraps of plywood as
needed. but maybe that's just me.
> Produced in quantity, these costs are miniscule. Once tooling is set up
> it's a run. And tooling for this particular product is not that
> elaborate.
Still, someone has to buy the tooling and set it up, and the production run
would be limited as these are not high volume products. Do you think $12.50
per piece at the retail level is unreasonable? Don't forget these are made
in the US, not in China or some other third world country.
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
<http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=51101&category=51&abspage=1&ccu
rrency=2&SID=>
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5ed72
>
>
> Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
> be worth it?
>
> JP
Specialty product, specialty prices. Why not make your own?
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The simple fact is that profits generally only come through
>providing what people want.
...or, moreso, convincing them that this is what they want.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm basing my opinion on what I see and what I have experienced. Take
a
> >> look at the parts in question. Now look at the operations to make
them.
> >> Shear a blank, punch press, brake, polish, check tolerances, package,
> >label,
> >> warehouse, ship, bill. Now the seller orders them, receives,
warehouses,
> >> prints a catalog, advertises, receives orders, warehouses, picks order,
> >> packs, ships, bills. We've not even considered insurance, operating
costs,
> >> utilities, employee benefits, taxes, and finally some profit.
> >>
> >> I'm basing my opinion (and we both only have opinions) on my experience
in
> >> doing pricing of manufactured items in both the retail and industrial
> >> markets. If you have experience with this, can tell me the steps of
> >> manufacturing and associated cost, travel through the supply chain,
I'll
> >> willing to listen and perhaps change my opinion.
> >
> >Likewise I base my comments on certain experiences. Mine might not
totally
> >parallel yours but I do have a great deal of experience in goods in the
> >supply chain and the incremental markups. I have never seen the types of
> >markups that have been spoken about here as a normal part of the supply
> >chain.
>
> I have some experience with the gems industry. there markups of 100%
> to 500% are not uncommon, at *each* level of distribution. OTOH,
> inventory is very expensive and often moves slowly.
>
Ah yes - a somewhat unique industry. Furniture is likewise marked up in
huge ways, but both of those stand out quite uniquely in terms of the mark
up they enjoy.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Jay Pique wrote:
> Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
> be worth it?
If you look at the photo in the January catalog, you can actually read the
print on the brackets.
MADE IN USA JEVONS TOOL COMPANY
PATENT PENDING Kansas City, KS
Not that that actually tells me anything, but it increases the odds that I'd
buy some.
Slightly anyway. I'm actually getting on fine with a set of four corner
clamps so far. They seem to be a very good solution to this particular
problem, and they're already paid for.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
Silvan wrote:
> Jay Pique wrote:
>
>
>>Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
>>be worth it?
>
>
> If you look at the photo in the January catalog, you can actually read the
> print on the brackets.
>
> MADE IN USA JEVONS TOOL COMPANY
> PATENT PENDING Kansas City, KS
>
> Not that that actually tells me anything, but it increases the odds that I'd
> buy some.
>
> Slightly anyway. I'm actually getting on fine with a set of four corner
> clamps so far. They seem to be a very good solution to this particular
> problem, and they're already paid for.
>
chiming in rather late in the threadbut,
You could bypass Lee Valley and buy directly form the maker:
http://www.jevonstoolco.com/_wsn/page3.html
but you have to buy 4, for a slighly higher price.
Joe
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:31:17 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> I could make the aluminum ones for less than 10.00 a
>> pair.....Brian
>Seriously, I'll take two pairs for 20 bucks.
I'll take four pairs for $40, if you're up for it. Seriously.
JP
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not. Edwin
>> asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me. I had
>> previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on the web
>> site.
>
>They're milled to within .002" per side.
>
I missed that. where does it say that?
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>> I'm basing my opinion on what I see and what I have experienced. Take a
>> look at the parts in question. Now look at the operations to make them.
>> Shear a blank, punch press, brake, polish, check tolerances, package,
>label,
>> warehouse, ship, bill. Now the seller orders them, receives, warehouses,
>> prints a catalog, advertises, receives orders, warehouses, picks order,
>> packs, ships, bills. We've not even considered insurance, operating costs,
>> utilities, employee benefits, taxes, and finally some profit.
>>
>> I'm basing my opinion (and we both only have opinions) on my experience in
>> doing pricing of manufactured items in both the retail and industrial
>> markets. If you have experience with this, can tell me the steps of
>> manufacturing and associated cost, travel through the supply chain, I'll
>> willing to listen and perhaps change my opinion.
>
>Likewise I base my comments on certain experiences. Mine might not totally
>parallel yours but I do have a great deal of experience in goods in the
>supply chain and the incremental markups. I have never seen the types of
>markups that have been spoken about here as a normal part of the supply
>chain.
I have some experience with the gems industry. there markups of 100%
to 500% are not uncommon, at *each* level of distribution. OTOH,
inventory is very expensive and often moves slowly.
> What I have seen and in this point we might be closer to agreeing
>more completely, is that specialty shops will tend to price higher simply
>because of what the market will bear rather than because of costs incurred
>throughout the supply chain.
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=51101&category=51&abspage=1&ccurrency=2&SID=>
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5ed72
>
>
> Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
> be worth it?
>
> JP
They are heavy aluminum and if they are truly accurate, they are worth it.
If you look closely, there is some time in fabricating them, not just simple
stamping. You do pay for accuracy. These are not like a 39¢ bracket from
Wal Mart
From the LV web page:
Accurately made from 3/16" aluminum, they are square to a tolerance
comparable to most machine squares.
Good chance they will be on my next Lee Valley order.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/
"Robin Lee" wrote in message
> The "make vs buy" equation is different for everyone.
Of all the catalogs I get from LV, the most recent is my personal favorite.
Despite its thinness, it contains a larger application of "crowbar grease"
than all the other's combined, and evokes the Pavlovian response of the old
"Sears catalog wishful/wistful" thinking" of my youth.
IOW, like that lovely catcher's mitt/guitar/bicycle of 50 years ago, there
are at least half a dozen items therein that, the need of which, I wasn't
even aware.
How do you do that??
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
"Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> I could make the aluminum ones for less than 10.00 a
> pair.....Brian
>
>
I'm sure you can. What you can't do for $10 a pair is print a catalog,
mail it out to your customers, inventory them in a warehouse, buy the
shipping supplies and pay someone (along with their benefits and insurance)
to pack and ship them, do the billing and deduct them from inventory on your
database. I'd be happy to call you on your 800 number and order a pair
though.
Seriously, I'll take two pairs for 20 bucks.
Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >> Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not.
> Edwin
> > >> asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me. I
> had
> > >> previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on the
> web
> > >> site.
> > >
> > >They're milled to within .002" per side.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I missed that. where does it say that?
>
> I followed one of the links that someone posted to the manufacturer's site
> and I did see it there. See if you can find one of the posts from the
last
> couple of days - after the date of my comment above, and you should find
the
> link.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
>
>
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> They are heavy aluminum and if they are truly accurate, they are worth it.
> If you look closely, there is some time in fabricating them, not just
simple
> stamping. You do pay for accuracy. These are not like a 39¢ bracket from
> Wal Mart
>
> From the LV web page:
> Accurately made from 3/16" aluminum, they are square to a tolerance
> comparable to most machine squares.
>
> Good chance they will be on my next Lee Valley order.
A premium perhaps Edwin, but $25.00 is far past premium. That's ridiculous.
There's just no material cost there and there's nothing spectacular about
getting them square. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I sure
wouldn't put up that money for something that simple. But then again,
that's me.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Errors are CUMULATIVE, so why not minimize the errors that you can,
> such as in the braces, straight edges, etc.
>
Ok - then let the .0002 errors compound. What do you end up with after a
few measurements? .0006? .0010? .0090? Is it really meaningful at all?
You'd have to accumulate a lot of errors before you ever hit a point where
it impacted the project at hand.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:02:24 -0500, "Brian In Hampton"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>The wood will move more than .002 with the humidity so why work to those
>tolerances, don't get me wrong I like to be as accurate as I can be but
>there is a point you cant get any closer.....Brian
That was my point.
Errors are CUMULATIVE, so why not minimize the errors that you can,
such as in the braces, straight edges, etc.
John
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:02:24 -0500, "Brian In Hampton"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>The wood will move more than .002 with the humidity so why work to those
>tolerances, don't get me wrong I like to be as accurate as I can be but
>there is a point you cant get any closer.....Brian
>"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:32:16 GMT, "Brian in Hampton"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
>> >from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
>>
>> Like the micrometer buffs who need just that little more accuracy when
>> cutting wood with a vibrating saw blade, how accurate do we need to
>> be?
>>
>> Anyhow, comparative shopping helps:
>>
>>
>http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=10112&objectg
>roup_id=525&catid=80&filter=clampit
>>
>> You [that's any "you"] decide.
>>
>
I posted pics of the brackets on ABPW if you want to have a look......Brian
"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:02:24 -0500, "Brian In Hampton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The wood will move more than .002 with the humidity so why work to those
> >tolerances, don't get me wrong I like to be as accurate as I can be but
> >there is a point you cant get any closer.....Brian
>
> That was my point.
>
"mp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > A premium perhaps Edwin, but $25.00 is far past premium. That's
> > ridiculous.
> > There's just no material cost there and there's nothing spectacular
about
> > getting them square. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I sure
> > wouldn't put up that money for something that simple. But then again,
> > that's me.
>
> The material costs are indeed minimal but don't forget that these items
are
> not just stamped aluminum. The faces are milled square. Think you could
make
> them to the same level of accuracy and make a profit at $12.50 per item?
And
> out of that $12.50 comes labour, tooling, business overhead, distribution,
> and retail profits.
>
>
Produced in quantity, these costs are miniscule. Once tooling is set up
it's a run. And tooling for this particular product is not that elaborate.
The accuracy they would have you believe is so critical is really rather
trivial for any shop. One would wonder though, why they would go to the
extent of milling when other, more economical but equally effective methods
exist.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:58:50 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Errors are CUMULATIVE, so why not minimize the errors that you can,
> >> such as in the braces, straight edges, etc.
> >>
> >
> >Ok - then let the .0002 errors compound. What do you end up with after a
> >few measurements? .0006? .0010? .0090? Is it really meaningful at all?
> >You'd have to accumulate a lot of errors before you ever hit a point
where
> >it impacted the project at hand.
>
> That's what I'm saying! Let me be a little more clear.... It's
> idiotic to expect such accuracy, or especially expect to need such
> accuracy when cutting wood.
>
Argh!!!! Sorry man - I mis read your intent. Thought you were saying the
opposite.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:58:50 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Errors are CUMULATIVE, so why not minimize the errors that you can,
>> such as in the braces, straight edges, etc.
>>
>
>Ok - then let the .0002 errors compound. What do you end up with after a
>few measurements? .0006? .0010? .0090? Is it really meaningful at all?
>You'd have to accumulate a lot of errors before you ever hit a point where
>it impacted the project at hand.
That's what I'm saying! Let me be a little more clear.... It's
idiotic to expect such accuracy, or especially expect to need such
accuracy when cutting wood.
I am SURE they could be produced to a 0.0002 tolerance, but the COST
would probably be prohibitive. Balance between COST and the tolerance
is why they are only done to 0.002 or whatever
The key is to MINIMIZE the error, as it is not really possible to
eliminate all errors
John
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:04:31 -0500, Guess who
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:29:23 -0600, John <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Errors are CUMULATIVE, so why not minimize the errors that you can,
>>such as in the braces, straight edges, etc.
>
>Then why not make them accurate to 0.00002"? Answer...same reason.
"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Yes, often the cost of materials AND labor is bumped 50 -100% going to
> the wholesaler, who then bumps it again 100%, and then the retailer
> bumps it 100% again.
>
I imagine every distributor and every retailer in the world would love to
work under the margin scheme you suggest. The reality is far from those
types of markups though.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:y4iFd.21465$Wo.21369@lakeread08...
> Looked at the pic and they are not milled. There are no milling marks
> anywhere on the parts....Brian
Brian -
Respectfully - you're wrong...you're looking at a low res photo... I'm
looking at the actual product.
The wood contact surfaces are all milled.
Cheers -
Rob
Sorry bout that Mike..I forgot about that................Brian
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Brian in Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:j3XEd.10991$F97.9251@trnddc06...
> > Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on
them
> > from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
> >
> >
>
> Hey Brian - include the text you're referring to in your posts will ya? A
> lot of folks do not keep the entire thread tree visible in our readers and
> it's about impossible to tell exactly who or what you're commenting on
when
> you don't include the text.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
>
>
<[email protected]> wrote in message
> where does it say these are made in the US?
>
In the picture where it is stamped Kansas City , KS Of course, technically
it does not say "Made in USA," but I guess made in KS is good enough.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:09:00 -0500, Guess who
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> The simple fact is that profits generally only come through
> >>providing what people want.
> >
> >...or, moreso, convincing them that this is what they want.
>
>
> or from eliminating all alternatives.
>
> you will be assimilated....
There is no pain, you are receding...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> That markup seems pretty high Edwin. There is more than just the cost of
> raw material to be considered. There's the cost of manufacturing and
> potentially middle- costs. That would make the markup on the "produce"
> less
> than the 4X for raw materials. The poster we both replied to and the
> comment we were both commenting on was a finished goods cost of $10.
The finished cost of $10 is from someone that intends on making an
equivalent himself; nothing to do with actual cost. He has not responded
yet to my offer to buy them at that price and probably will not. The cost of
these brackets is less than the $10 he mentioned.
I'm basing my opinion on what I see and what I have experienced. Take a
look at the parts in question. Now look at the operations to make them.
Shear a blank, punch press, brake, polish, check tolerances, package, label,
warehouse, ship, bill. Now the seller orders them, receives, warehouses,
prints a catalog, advertises, receives orders, warehouses, picks order,
packs, ships, bills. We've not even considered insurance, operating costs,
utilities, employee benefits, taxes, and finally some profit.
I'm basing my opinion (and we both only have opinions) on my experience in
doing pricing of manufactured items in both the retail and industrial
markets. If you have experience with this, can tell me the steps of
manufacturing and associated cost, travel through the supply chain, I'll
willing to listen and perhaps change my opinion.
Not related to just this item:
Funny how many people complain about the perceived high cost of an item and
also complain that industry and retail don't pay their employees enough of a
wage to make a living. The retailer is gouging us and making a fortune and
at the same time retailers are filing for bankruptcy and their employees are
complaining they don't get paid enough and have poor benefits. I do know
that I sure don't have the answers.
I understand that most people do not have a brake shear laser or punch but,
I could do the same with some scrap plywood too. I am fortunate to have the
steel and the equipment to make anything I need, given that I still think
that the price is a bit high.. We have a shop min. of $45.00. If some came
in and wanted the brackets made they would be 45.00. If they wanted 10 each
it might be 45.00 also. the set-up is the cost in the whole thing.I also
could cut all the wood with the laser too but I want to do the woodworking
myself. I use the fancy equipment to make jigs and fixtures............Brian
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:RYZEd.21033$Wo.10504@lakeread08...
> >I have allready made some out of 11ga steel and they work great...But I
> >wood
> > not spend that kinda money on them...my $.02 ......Brian
>
> Great, but I don't have any 11 gauge steel, nor do I have a shear, brake,
> etc.
>
>
"LVBAH!!!" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:r5%Dd.1138$jS.549@attbi_s03...
> Amen brother!!! I agree with you 110%. But you and I both know that 75% of
> the people that hang out here have their noses so far up LV's ass that,
> well
> probably enough said already. I'm the greatest, I bought all my stuff from
> Lee Valley! Bull shit!
So uh you have a chip on your shoulder for any particular reason?
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > I could make the aluminum ones for less than 10.00 a
> > pair.....Brian
> >
> >
>
> I'm sure you can. What you can't do for $10 a pair is print a catalog,
> mail it out to your customers, inventory them in a warehouse, buy the
> shipping supplies and pay someone (along with their benefits and
insurance)
> to pack and ship them, do the billing and deduct them from inventory on
your
> database. I'd be happy to call you on your 800 number and order a pair
> though.
>
Yeah, true, but even if the cost to produce them was $10 - and I highly
doubt it's more than about $3, that kind of markup would be way over what's
typical for profitability.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not.
Edwin
> >> asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me. I
had
> >> previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on the
web
> >> site.
> >
> >They're milled to within .002" per side.
> >
>
>
> I missed that. where does it say that?
I followed one of the links that someone posted to the manufacturer's site
and I did see it there. See if you can find one of the posts from the last
couple of days - after the date of my comment above, and you should find the
link.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> <http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=51101&category=51&abspage=1&ccurrency=2&SID=>
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5ed72
>
>
> Why in the world are these brackets so expensive?
Because the metal ones are more expensive to manufacture than the plastic
ones Rockler sells.
Can they possibly
> be worth it?
IMHO a piece of plywood cut triangle shaped with a few holes cut through for
the clamps to fit into works pretty well.
Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 3:46pm (EST+5) [email protected] (Leon)
says:
<snip> IMHO a piece of plywood cut triangle shaped with a few holes cut
through for the clamps to fit into works pretty well.
Yup. Or, if you wanted metal ones, be plenty easy to cut, and
weld, some angle iron.
JOAT
EVERY THING THAT HAPPENS STAYS HAPPENED.
- Death
J T wrote:
> Yup. Or, if you wanted metal ones, be plenty easy to cut, and
> weld, some angle iron.
It'd be easy if I could afford welding equipment. :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Yup. Or, if you wanted metal ones, be plenty easy to cut, and
> weld, some angle iron.
>
Then, with your handy milling machine (everyone has one , right?) machine
them strait and square in two axis.
"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 1:02pm (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) says:
> Then, with your handy milling machine (everyone has one , right?)
> machine them strait and square in two axis.
>
> Well, no, actually. I had thought it would go without saying you'd
> take a bit of care, and get it right. Guess not.
>
> Make a jig, to hold the pieces square for welding. Yes, you'd have
> to make sure the jig is square first. I'd make the jig from wood, of
> course. Angle hacksaw cut the angle Iron, butt the pieces in the jig,
> weld - gas, arc, MIG, TIG, whatever's available - brazing would work
> too. No prob if the angle cuts are a shade off, the sides are what's
> important, and they'll be aligned in the jig, the weld will hold them
> square. No prob. Wouldn't be bootiful, unless you painted 'em, but
> they'd be plenty accurate. If you wanted, you could smooth the welds a
> bit with a grinder, no milling machine required. Hell, if I had a
> millig machine, I could just make some from solid stock. No prob. You
> could probably even make some using silver solder, but that might get a
> bit pricey. It ain't rocket science.
>
>
I think you would be better off machining it after you welded it. The
technique you describe is likely to induce warp in the piece and while it
may be possible to weld with a technique to reduce the warpage, I doubt you
could reasonably expect any technique to give you zero.
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 10:30pm (EST-3) [email protected] (Roger Shoaf)
says:
I think you would be better off machining it after you welded it. The
technique you describe is likely to induce warp in the piece and while
it may be possible to weld with a technique to reduce the warpage, I
doubt you could reasonably expect any technique to give you zero.
Well, I'm not about to got into a buchch of "how I'd do it", and
variables include type of joining used, angle iron thickness, etc..
But, yeah, I expect I could do it without warping, and no machining. Not
in 30 seconds, but doable close enuogh to zero as to not matter - then
you paint it yellow. I figure most people here could, after a bit of
practice. Then there's always the 10% that couldn't do it with a robot
welder.
But, I doubt I'd do it, I'd probably just use plywood, as described
by someone else. Faster, easier, cheaper, just as accurate.
I suppose it comes down to a matter of accuracy. If I was going to make a
reference standard I would not like to have an out of square error of .020
over a six inches, but others might think that error to be too trivial to
worry about.
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 10:30pm (EST-3) [email protected] (Roger=A0Shoaf)
says:
I think you would be better off machining it after you welded it. The
technique you describe is likely to induce warp in the piece and while
it may be possible to weld with a technique to reduce the warpage, I
doubt you could reasonably expect any technique to give you zero.
Well, I'm not about to got into a buchch of "how I'd do it", and
variables include type of joining used, angle iron thickness, etc..
But, yeah, I expect I could do it without warping, and no machining. Not
in 30 seconds, but doable close enuogh to zero as to not matter - then
you paint it yellow. I figure most people here could, after a bit of
practice. Then there's always the 10% that couldn't do it with a robot
welder.
But, I doubt I'd do it, I'd probably just use plywood, as described
by someone else. Faster, easier, cheaper, just as accurate.
JOAT
Success is getting what you want.
Happiness is wanting what you get.
- =A0Dale Carnegie
Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 1:02pm (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) says:
Then, with your handy milling machine (everyone has one , right?)
machine them strait and square in two axis.
Well, no, actually. I had thought it would go without saying you'd
take a bit of care, and get it right. Guess not.
Make a jig, to hold the pieces square for welding. Yes, you'd have
to make sure the jig is square first. I'd make the jig from wood, of
course. Angle hacksaw cut the angle Iron, butt the pieces in the jig,
weld - gas, arc, MIG, TIG, whatever's available - brazing would work
too. No prob if the angle cuts are a shade off, the sides are what's
important, and they'll be aligned in the jig, the weld will hold them
square. No prob. Wouldn't be bootiful, unless you painted 'em, but
they'd be plenty accurate. If you wanted, you could smooth the welds a
bit with a grinder, no milling machine required. Hell, if I had a
millig machine, I could just make some from solid stock. No prob. You
could probably even make some using silver solder, but that might get a
bit pricey. It ain't rocket science.
JOAT
EVERY THING THAT HAPPENS STAYS HAPPENED.
- Death
It'll move when it comes out of the jig. If not immediately, in time.
Guaranteed.
"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 1:02pm (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) says:
> Then, with your handy milling machine (everyone has one , right?)
> machine them strait and square in two axis.
>
> Well, no, actually. I had thought it would go without saying you'd
> take a bit of care, and get it right. Guess not.
>
> Make a jig, to hold the pieces square for welding. Yes, you'd have
> to make sure the jig is square first. I'd make the jig from wood, of
> course. Angle hacksaw cut the angle Iron, butt the pieces in the jig,
> weld - gas, arc, MIG, TIG, whatever's available - brazing would work
> too. No prob if the angle cuts are a shade off, the sides are what's
> important, and they'll be aligned in the jig, the weld will hold them
> square. No prob. Wouldn't be bootiful, unless you painted 'em, but
> they'd be plenty accurate. If you wanted, you could smooth the welds a
> bit with a grinder, no milling machine required. Hell, if I had a
> millig machine, I could just make some from solid stock. No prob. You
> could probably even make some using silver solder, but that might get a
> bit pricey. It ain't rocket science.
>
>
>
> JOAT
> EVERY THING THAT HAPPENS STAYS HAPPENED.
> - Death
>
Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 10:41pm (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) informs us:
It'll move when it comes out of the jig. If not immediately, in time.
Guaranteed.
Anything to back up that statement?
JOAT
Success is getting what you want.
Happiness is wanting what you get.
- =A0Dale Carnegie
Yep, 19 years of machining and fabrication experience. Weldments will move
after fabrication unless stress relieved.
"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 10:41pm (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) informs us:
It'll move when it comes out of the jig. If not immediately, in time.
Guaranteed.
Anything to back up that statement?
JOAT
Success is getting what you want.
Happiness is wanting what you get.
- Dale Carnegie
Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 8:22am (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) claims:
Yep, 19 years of machining and fabrication experience. Weldments will
move after fabrication unless stress relieved.
Machining and fabricating what? You saying "anything" welded will
move unless it's stress relieved? Elucidate.
JOAT
Success is getting what you want.
Happiness is wanting what you get.
- =A0Dale Carnegie
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:26:51 -0500, [email protected] (J T)
wrote:
>Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 8:22am (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) claims:
>Yep, 19 years of machining and fabrication experience. Weldments will
>move after fabrication unless stress relieved.
>
> Machining and fabricating what? You saying "anything" welded will
>move unless it's stress relieved? Elucidate.
he's actually almost completely right. there are ways to weld that do
not result in a stressed joint. those would pretty much fall into the
exotic category, though...
Look it up. It's not my goal in life to educate you.
"J T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 8:22am (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) claims:
Yep, 19 years of machining and fabrication experience. Weldments will
move after fabrication unless stress relieved.
Machining and fabricating what? You saying "anything" welded will
move unless it's stress relieved? Elucidate.
JOAT
Success is getting what you want.
Happiness is wanting what you get.
- Dale Carnegie
Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 10:02am (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) says:
Look it up. It's not my goal in life to educate you.
Sure it is. You're the one seems to think anything and everything
that gets welded needs stress relief. I don't. Especially something
like this. Hell, if I was that worried about it, I'd just use epoxy, or
JB Weld.
=A0 What "do" you machine and fabricate? Or, do you just work for
a company that does?
JOAT
Success is getting what you want.
Happiness is wanting what you get.
- =A0Dale Carnegie
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:26:51 -0500, [email protected] (J T)
wrote:
>Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 8:22am (EST-3) [email protected] (CW) claims:
>Yep, 19 years of machining and fabrication experience. Weldments will
>move after fabrication unless stress relieved.
>
> Machining and fabricating what? You saying "anything" welded will
>move unless it's stress relieved? Elucidate.
Here's one source that might help you:
http://www.welding-advisers.com/Welding-distortion.html
Try Google for more if you don't have personal experience.
Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 5:19pm [email protected] (Guess=A0who) says:
Here's one source that might help you: <snip>
Thanks, but I'm aware of that. You're missing it too. I just
don't believe that EVERY weld has to be stress relieved; and, the
impression I get, he does.
JOAT
Success is getting what you want.
Happiness is wanting what you get.
- =A0Dale Carnegie
I have allready made some out of 11ga steel and they work great...But I wood
not spend that kinda money on them...my $.02 ......Brian
"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Brian in Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ABXEd.1931$SS6.331@trnddc07...
> > Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on
them
> > from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
> >
> > "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or
not.
> > > Edwin
> > > > >> asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy
me.
> I
> > > had
> > > > >> previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on
> the
> > > web
> > > > >> site.
> > > > >
> > > > >They're milled to within .002" per side.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I missed that. where does it say that?
> > >
> > > I followed one of the links that someone posted to the manufacturer's
> site
> > > and I did see it there. See if you can find one of the posts from the
> > last
> > > couple of days - after the date of my comment above, and you should
find
> > the
> > > link.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > -Mike-
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Brian they are milled on the reference surfaces - on 3 faces, to within
> .002" over 6". Material is sheared and bent aluminum - 3/16 thick...
>
> The web copy is being/has been updated....
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob
>
>
"Brian in Hampton" <[email protected]> writes:
>E-mail me a high res pic to show me.......Brian
Why should he? Why do you care? Are you just Robert
under a different name?
scott
The wood will move more than .002 with the humidity so why work to those
tolerances, don't get me wrong I like to be as accurate as I can be but
there is a point you cant get any closer.....Brian
"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:32:16 GMT, "Brian in Hampton"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
> >from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
>
> Like the micrometer buffs who need just that little more accuracy when
> cutting wood with a vibrating saw blade, how accurate do we need to
> be?
>
> Anyhow, comparative shopping helps:
>
>
http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=10112&objectg
roup_id=525&catid=80&filter=clampit
>
> You [that's any "you"] decide.
>
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in news:8bidnQG_z99gsnjcRVn-
[email protected]:
> How do you do that??
>
Simple; he's evil. ;-) (if the humor's not obvious).
Between the last two update catalogs, and some leftover needed misc. shop
supplies, I expect I'll ordering in the next week ...
Regards,
JT
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:09:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>
> where does it say they are milled?
>
> "Many woodworkers have difficulty assembling projects; it is hard to
> square corners while juggling clamps. More disheartening is leaving
> the glue to cure, only to discover that things crept out of alignment
> while the piece was clamped.
>
> This pair of right-angle brackets is ideal for temporarily attaching
> to opposite corners of a cabinet carcass, drawer or box to prevent
> this frustration. Accurately made from 3/16" aluminum, they are square
> to a tolerance comparable to most machine squares.
>
> May also be used as braces for constructing power tool jigs or
> assembly fixtures."
Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not. Edwin
asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me. I had
previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on the web
site.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Jz0Fd.21061$Wo.10594@lakeread08...
> I understand that most people do not have a brake shear laser or punch
but,
> I am fortunate to have the steel and the equipment to make anything I
need.
> I also could cut all the wood with the laser too but I want to do the
> woodworking myself. I use the fancy equipment to make jigs and fixtures
You suck Brian.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
K
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Brian in Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:j3XEd.10991$F97.9251@trnddc06...
> > Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on
them
> > from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
> >
> >
>
> Hey Brian - include the text you're referring to in your posts will ya? A
> lot of folks do not keep the entire thread tree visible in our readers and
> it's about impossible to tell exactly who or what you're commenting on
when
> you don't include the text.
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
>
>
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Yeah, true, but even if the cost to produce them was $10 - and I highly
> doubt it's more than about $3, that kind of markup would be way over
> what's
> typical for profitability.
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
Typical selling price for items sold through the retail distribution system
have selling prices about 4X the cost of material. Next time you chug a
beer, drink a store bought cup of coffee, replace a printer ink cartridge,
apply a gallon of paint, see if you can justify your statement in light of
the cost of raw material.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > Yeah, true, but even if the cost to produce them was $10 - and I highly
> > doubt it's more than about $3, that kind of markup would be way over
> > what's
> > typical for profitability.
> > --
> >
> > -Mike-
> > [email protected]
>
> Typical selling price for items sold through the retail distribution
system
> have selling prices about 4X the cost of material. Next time you chug a
> beer, drink a store bought cup of coffee, replace a printer ink cartridge,
> apply a gallon of paint, see if you can justify your statement in light of
> the cost of raw material.
That markup seems pretty high Edwin. There is more than just the cost of
raw material to be considered. There's the cost of manufacturing and
potentially middle- costs. That would make the markup on the "produce" less
than the 4X for raw materials. The poster we both replied to and the
comment we were both commenting on was a finished goods cost of $10.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:23:05 -0500, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
><http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=51101&category=51&abspage=1&ccurrency=2&SID=>
>
>or
>
>http://tinyurl.com/5ed72
>
>
>Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
>be worth it?
>
>JP
If you want 2 pair, they are about 20% cheaper at McFeelys:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/subcat.asp?subcat=18.5.1
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I'm basing my opinion on what I see and what I have experienced. Take a
> look at the parts in question. Now look at the operations to make them.
> Shear a blank, punch press, brake, polish, check tolerances, package,
label,
> warehouse, ship, bill. Now the seller orders them, receives, warehouses,
> prints a catalog, advertises, receives orders, warehouses, picks order,
> packs, ships, bills. We've not even considered insurance, operating costs,
> utilities, employee benefits, taxes, and finally some profit.
>
> I'm basing my opinion (and we both only have opinions) on my experience in
> doing pricing of manufactured items in both the retail and industrial
> markets. If you have experience with this, can tell me the steps of
> manufacturing and associated cost, travel through the supply chain, I'll
> willing to listen and perhaps change my opinion.
Likewise I base my comments on certain experiences. Mine might not totally
parallel yours but I do have a great deal of experience in goods in the
supply chain and the incremental markups. I have never seen the types of
markups that have been spoken about here as a normal part of the supply
chain. What I have seen and in this point we might be closer to agreeing
more completely, is that specialty shops will tend to price higher simply
because of what the market will bear rather than because of costs incurred
throughout the supply chain.
>
> Not related to just this item:
> Funny how many people complain about the perceived high cost of an item
and
> also complain that industry and retail don't pay their employees enough of
a
> wage to make a living. The retailer is gouging us and making a fortune
and
> at the same time retailers are filing for bankruptcy and their employees
are
> complaining they don't get paid enough and have poor benefits. I do know
> that I sure don't have the answers.
>
>
A well taken point. To a degree, I'm a walking contradiction. I'm a
capitalist at heart and have no philosophical problem with profit at all.
Especially large profits. On the other hand, I'm not often inclined to
contribute to those profits without seeing the value for the product. I'm
fine with the merchant or the manufacturer getting all they can get, but I'm
equally fine voicing my opinion on the worth of the product. Likewise, I am
amused at those who complain about high prices and then complain about low
wages at places like Wal Mart, etc. For the most part, I don't believe that
most major retailers are really gouging all that bad. Competition keeps
things somewhat in check. It's just too easy for people to sit back -
usually too uninformed, and complain about the huge profits the corporations
are making. The simple fact is that profits generally only come through
providing what people want.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:RYZEd.21033$Wo.10504@lakeread08...
> I have allready made some out of 11ga steel and they work great...But I
wood
> not spend that kinda money on them...my $.02 ......Brian
> "Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
Brian -
Completely understand - but we have to leave the value judgement up to the
customer...there are lots more people with $10 bills (well, $12.25 really),
than there are with the desire to build their own braces.
The "make vs buy" equation is different for everyone.
Cheers -
Rob
"Brian in Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ABXEd.1931$SS6.331@trnddc07...
> Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
> from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or not.
> > Edwin
> > > >> asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy me.
I
> > had
> > > >> previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on
the
> > web
> > > >> site.
> > > >
> > > >They're milled to within .002" per side.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I missed that. where does it say that?
> >
> > I followed one of the links that someone posted to the manufacturer's
site
> > and I did see it there. See if you can find one of the posts from the
> last
> > couple of days - after the date of my comment above, and you should find
> the
> > link.
> >
> > --
> >
> > -Mike-
> > [email protected]
> >
> >
Brian they are milled on the reference surfaces - on 3 faces, to within
.002" over 6". Material is sheared and bent aluminum - 3/16 thick...
The web copy is being/has been updated....
Cheers -
Rob
E-mail me a high res pic to show me.......Brian
"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:y4iFd.21465$Wo.21369@lakeread08...
> > Looked at the pic and they are not milled. There are no milling marks
> > anywhere on the parts....Brian
>
> Brian -
>
> Respectfully - you're wrong...you're looking at a low res photo... I'm
> looking at the actual product.
>
> The wood contact surfaces are all milled.
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob
>
>
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:06:55 -0800, "mp" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Produced in quantity, these costs are miniscule. Once tooling is set up
>> it's a run. And tooling for this particular product is not that
>> elaborate.
>
>Still, someone has to buy the tooling and set it up, and the production run
>would be limited as these are not high volume products. Do you think $12.50
>per piece at the retail level is unreasonable? Don't forget these are made
>in the US, not in China or some other third world country.
>
the tooling to make these is the same as the tooling to make any of
the simpson strongtie hardware. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that
the manufacturer *was* simpson.
where does it say these are made in the US?
Many woodworkers have difficulty assembling projects; it is hard to
square corners while juggling clamps. More disheartening is leaving
the glue to cure, only to discover that things crept out of alignment
while the piece was clamped.
This pair of right-angle brackets is ideal for temporarily attaching
to opposite corners of a cabinet carcass, drawer or box to prevent
this frustration. Accurately made from 3/16" aluminum, they are square
to a tolerance comparable to most machine squares.
May also be used as braces for constructing power tool jigs or
assembly fixtures.
"Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:RYZEd.21033$Wo.10504@lakeread08...
>I have allready made some out of 11ga steel and they work great...But I
>wood
> not spend that kinda money on them...my $.02 ......Brian
Great, but I don't have any 11 gauge steel, nor do I have a shear, brake,
etc.
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:32:16 GMT, "Brian in Hampton"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
>from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
Like the micrometer buffs who need just that little more accuracy when
cutting wood with a vibrating saw blade, how accurate do we need to
be?
Anyhow, comparative shopping helps:
http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=10112&objectgroup_id=525&catid=80&filter=clampit
You [that's any "you"] decide.
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:09:12 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"mp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> > A premium perhaps Edwin, but $25.00 is far past premium. That's
>> > ridiculous.
>> > There's just no material cost there and there's nothing spectacular
>about
>> > getting them square. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I sure
>> > wouldn't put up that money for something that simple. But then again,
>> > that's me.
>>
>> The material costs are indeed minimal but don't forget that these items
>are
>> not just stamped aluminum. The faces are milled square. Think you could
>make
>> them to the same level of accuracy and make a profit at $12.50 per item?
>And
>> out of that $12.50 comes labour, tooling, business overhead, distribution,
>> and retail profits.
>>
>>
>
>Produced in quantity, these costs are miniscule. Once tooling is set up
>it's a run. And tooling for this particular product is not that elaborate.
>The accuracy they would have you believe is so critical is really rather
>trivial for any shop. One would wonder though, why they would go to the
>extent of milling when other, more economical but equally effective methods
>exist.
where does it say they are milled?
"Many woodworkers have difficulty assembling projects; it is hard to
square corners while juggling clamps. More disheartening is leaving
the glue to cure, only to discover that things crept out of alignment
while the piece was clamped.
This pair of right-angle brackets is ideal for temporarily attaching
to opposite corners of a cabinet carcass, drawer or box to prevent
this frustration. Accurately made from 3/16" aluminum, they are square
to a tolerance comparable to most machine squares.
May also be used as braces for constructing power tool jigs or
assembly fixtures."
Not me............
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Brian in Hampton wrote:
> >No they are not...I put them up to a machine aquare and they are
> >square....Brian
>
>
>
> By the way, are you the same Brian that gave more to tsunami
> relief than I make in a month, if I had a job?
>
> UA100
I sent you an email did ya get it??
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Brian in Hampton wrote:
> >No they are not...I put them up to a machine aquare and they are
> >square....Brian
>
>
>
> By the way, are you the same Brian that gave more to tsunami
> relief than I make in a month, if I had a job?
>
> UA100
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:21:43 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:Jz0Fd.21061$Wo.10594@lakeread08...
>
>> I understand that most people do not have a brake shear laser or punch
>but,
>> I am fortunate to have the steel and the equipment to make anything I
>need.
>> I also could cut all the wood with the laser too but I want to do the
>> woodworking myself. I use the fancy equipment to make jigs and fixtures
>
>You suck Brian.
>
>--
>
>-Mike-
I think you might want to re-punctuate that. ("Eats, shoots, and leaves.")
"igor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:21:43 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Brian In Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:Jz0Fd.21061$Wo.10594@lakeread08...
> >
> >> I understand that most people do not have a brake shear laser or punch
> >but,
> >> I am fortunate to have the steel and the equipment to make anything I
> >need.
> >> I also could cut all the wood with the laser too but I want to do the
> >> woodworking myself. I use the fancy equipment to make jigs and fixtures
> >
> >You suck Brian.
> >
> >--
> >
> >-Mike-
>
> I think you might want to re-punctuate that. ("Eats, shoots, and
leaves.")
>
OK - You suck, Brian.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Amen brother!!! I agree with you 110%. But you and I both know that 75% of
the people that hang out here have their noses so far up LV's ass that, well
probably enough said already. I'm the greatest, I bought all my stuff from
Lee Valley! Bull shit!
"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:23:05 -0500, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
><http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=51101&category=51&abspage=1&cc
urrency=2&SID=>
> >
> >or
> >
> >http://tinyurl.com/5ed72
> >
> >
> >Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
> >be worth it?
>
> Not in the least. Like a lot of Lee Valley products, they are for
> Yuppieville wannabees. If a woodworker can't align his pieces at 90
> degrees while clamping, he should find another hobby. If you wore
> everything they sell before going into your garden to grow a few spuds
> you'd look like a Martian immigrant. I've gone through magazine after
> magazine wondering who on Earth spends their money this way. Sure,
> there might be the odd item, but page after page of such rubbish just
> turns me away. They might suit the computerised micrometer clan
> though, who can't cut a piece of wood if it's not accurate to ten
> thou.
>
I don't beleive JT expressed and opinion (other than spelling)?
"Guess who" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:16:56 -0500, [email protected] (J T)
> wrote:
>
> >Too bad you don't have any credibility tho. By
> >the way, I believe that bullshit is one word. And, I don't own anything
> >from Lee Valley
>
> Which makes your opinion credible, of course?
>
Sun, Jan 9, 2005, 12:41am (EST+5) [email protected] (LVBAH!!!) claims:
Amen brother!!! I agree with you 110%. But you and I both know that 75%
of the people that hang out here have their noses so far up LV's ass
that, well probably enough said already. I'm the greatest, I bought all
my stuff from Lee Valley! Bull shit!
Well, well. Glad to see your alt.test post went well, so you could
post this drivel here. Too bad you don't have any credibility tho. By
the way, I believe that bullshit is one word. And, I don't own anything
from Lee Valley - but that's subject to change at any time, especially
in view of your enlightening post..
JOAT
EVERY THING THAT HAPPENS STAYS HAPPENED.
- Death
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:47:26 -0600, "Doug Brown"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I don't beleive JT expressed and opinion (other than spelling)?
>>so you could
>>post this drivel here. Too bad you don't have any credibility tho
What did I miss?
On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:16:56 -0500, [email protected] (J T)
wrote:
>Too bad you don't have any credibility tho. By
>the way, I believe that bullshit is one word. And, I don't own anything
>from Lee Valley
Which makes your opinion credible, of course?
Sat, Jan 8, 2005, 10:17pm [email protected] (Guess=A0who)
questions:
Which makes your opinion credible, of course?
110% more cridible then his, and that's no bullshit.
JOAT
Success is getting what you want.
Happiness is wanting what you get.
- =A0Dale Carnegie
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:09:00 -0500, Guess who
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:06:41 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> The simple fact is that profits generally only come through
>>providing what people want.
>
>...or, moreso, convincing them that this is what they want.
or from eliminating all alternatives.
you will be assimilated....
On 08 Jan 2005 19:48:43 GMT, [email protected] (Tom) wrote:
> Jay wrote:>Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they
>possibly
>>be worth it?
not to me.
>
>They may have sold some at that price before? Ahhh, capitalism in action!
Yes, I suppose. But I think there is very little value offered for
that price. Not when it would be so easy to make something like it
from plywood. Which I have done. Or even angle iron. Which I have
also used.
Okay, they will continue to sell them for that price. There are a lot
of guys out there that maybe don't quite know what they are buying.
Yup, they are the legitimate prey of honest capitalists like Lee
Valley. Hey, I've ordered from Lee Valley in the past. They have
some unique items you are not likley to find anywhere else.
Do those squares perform as advertised? Sure. Is anyone being ripped
off? Nah. Are there better cheap alternatives? I'm sure.
Now, if I had a little brother who was ramping up a shop of his own, I
would not advise him to spend much money on Lee Valley stuff. But
y'all ain't my little brother.
Caveat Emptor (Did I spell that right?)
-Dan V.
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 10:23:05 -0500, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
wrote:
><http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=51101&category=51&abspage=1&ccurrency=2&SID=>
>
>or
>
>http://tinyurl.com/5ed72
>
>
>Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
>be worth it?
Not in the least. Like a lot of Lee Valley products, they are for
Yuppieville wannabees. If a woodworker can't align his pieces at 90
degrees while clamping, he should find another hobby. If you wore
everything they sell before going into your garden to grow a few spuds
you'd look like a Martian immigrant. I've gone through magazine after
magazine wondering who on Earth spends their money this way. Sure,
there might be the odd item, but page after page of such rubbish just
turns me away. They might suit the computerised micrometer clan
though, who can't cut a piece of wood if it's not accurate to ten
thou.
Yes, often the cost of materials AND labor is bumped 50 -100% going to
the wholesaler, who then bumps it again 100%, and then the retailer
bumps it 100% again.
So, if it cost 3$ in material, and $2 in labor, it goes out the door
to the wholesaler for $10, who then sells it to the retailer for
$15-$20, who then marks it up again. Everyone at EVERY LEVEL has to
make a profit off that item that cost $3 in materials
John
On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:10:46 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Yeah, true, but even if the cost to produce them was $10 - and I highly
>> doubt it's more than about $3, that kind of markup would be way over
>> what's
>> typical for profitability.
>> --
>>
>> -Mike-
>> [email protected]
>
>Typical selling price for items sold through the retail distribution system
>have selling prices about 4X the cost of material. Next time you chug a
>beer, drink a store bought cup of coffee, replace a printer ink cartridge,
>apply a gallon of paint, see if you can justify your statement in light of
>the cost of raw material.
"mp" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > Produced in quantity, these costs are miniscule. Once tooling is set up
> > it's a run. And tooling for this particular product is not that
> > elaborate.
>
> Still, someone has to buy the tooling and set it up, and the production
run
> would be limited as these are not high volume products. Do you think
$12.50
> per piece at the retail level is unreasonable? Don't forget these are made
> in the US, not in China or some other third world country.
>
>
Well, my personal opinion is that they are hardly worth anything - but that
is nothing more than a personal opinion. That opinion is based on the
commonplace nature of alternate solutions which serve the purpose nicely.
To me it just simply looks like a solution looking for a problem. I guess,
to fairly answer your question, I would not consider the value they bring to
be more than a $2.00 proposition. But again - that's just my opinion.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
I posted some pictures on ABPW of the brackets I made yesterday of the ones
in this thread.........Brian
"Jay Pique" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
<http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=51101&category=51&abspage=1&ccu
rrency=2&SID=>
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5ed72
>
>
> Why in the world are these brackets so expensive? Can they possibly
> be worth it?
>
> JP
"Brian in Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:j3XEd.10991$F97.9251@trnddc06...
> Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on them
> from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
>
>
Hey Brian - include the text you're referring to in your posts will ya? A
lot of folks do not keep the entire thread tree visible in our readers and
it's about impossible to tell exactly who or what you're commenting on when
you don't include the text.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Looked at the pic and they are not milled. There are no milling marks
anywhere on the parts....Brian
"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Brian in Hampton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ABXEd.1931$SS6.331@trnddc07...
> > Looked at the pic and they are not milled I can see the die marks on
them
> > from the press....they may say that, but I see otherwise....Brian
> >
> > "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:14:11 -0800, "mp" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> Confession time. I did not check whether they were milled or
not.
> > > Edwin
> > > > >> asserted that they were and I just took his word for it - lazy
me.
> I
> > > had
> > > > >> previously thought they were just stamped based on the picture on
> the
> > > web
> > > > >> site.
> > > > >
> > > > >They're milled to within .002" per side.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I missed that. where does it say that?
> > >
> > > I followed one of the links that someone posted to the manufacturer's
> site
> > > and I did see it there. See if you can find one of the posts from the
> > last
> > > couple of days - after the date of my comment above, and you should
find
> > the
> > > link.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > -Mike-
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > >
>
>
> Brian they are milled on the reference surfaces - on 3 faces, to within
> .002" over 6". Material is sheared and bent aluminum - 3/16 thick...
>
> The web copy is being/has been updated....
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob
>
>