I was talking to someone who wants me to build them a table. I have no
problems with that -- I've built tables before. But this one is supposed to
be for outside, where it has to face the weather (including the harsh
Canadian winters). I've never built outdoor furniture before, and am not
familiar with what materails work well.
What woods are good for outdoors? How would I go about treating the wood?
Also, what kind of glue should I be using?
This would be my first paid project, so I'm rather exited about it and want
to do a good job.
John
John Smith asks:
>I was talking to someone who wants me to build them a table. I have no
>problems with that -- I've built tables before. But this one is supposed to
>be for outside, where it has to face the weather (including the harsh
>Canadian winters). I've never built outdoor furniture before, and am not
>familiar with what materails work well.
>
>What woods are good for outdoors? How would I go about treating the wood?
>Also, what kind of glue should I be using?
Cedar, redwood, cypress, walnut, locust: check any good reference tome on woods
to add to the list of durable woods, including purpleheart and other exotics.
Don't treat it. Let it turn gray, or finish with exterior varnish (will
probably need refinishing every 2-3-4 years, depending on exposure, quality of
finish, quality of application).
Use polyurethane or resorcinol adhesive.
Design joints to drain, and don't fit them as tightly as you would for an
indoor project.
Charlie Self
"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without
integrity is dangerous and dreadful."
Samuel Johnson
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:47:30 +0000, Abe wrote:
> Doug -- thanks. I'll see if I can find some "Rock Hard". N.b. I love
> woodpeckers, but the little buggers can certainly be troublesome.
I had one that insisted one doing machine gun practice on the downspout
outside my bedroom window at daybreak every day. Grrrrrr
-Doug
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:04:34 -0400, "John Smith"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I was talking to someone who wants me to build them a table. I have no
>problems with that -- I've built tables before. But this one is supposed to
>be for outside, where it has to face the weather (including the harsh
>Canadian winters). I've never built outdoor furniture before, and am not
>familiar with what materails work well.
>
>What woods are good for outdoors? How would I go about treating the wood?
>Also, what kind of glue should I be using?
>
>This would be my first paid project, so I'm rather exited about it and want
>to do a good job.
>
>
>John
>
>
Redwood, Cypress, White oak, Cedar, Teak, pressure treated pine (okay,
but not for food stuff or children). Outdoor primer/paint protects
wood very well. I use CWF for clear-coating and this darkens the wood
a little. Use traditional joinery with waterproof wood glues.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:44:18 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Redwood, Cypress, White oak, Cedar, Teak, pressure treated pine (okay,
>but not for food stuff or children).
I'm surprised to see walnut and white oak on those lists. They don't
last outdoors in England. Oak does, but only for big pieces (timber
framed houses) and it looks pretty scabby close up.
I'd add larch too.
Andy Dingley responds:
>>Redwood, Cypress, White oak, Cedar, Teak, pressure treated pine (okay,
>>but not for food stuff or children).
>
>I'm surprised to see walnut and white oak on those lists. They don't
>last outdoors in England. Oak does, but only for big pieces (timber
>framed houses) and it looks pretty scabby close up.
>
White oaks only. Red oak rots like a demon. I had a white oak picnic table that
was over 20 years old when I tossed the thing because it was murder to move
when mowing the grass (is there a bigger waste of resources anywhere than
lawns?).
Walnut is moderately durable, at least that found in the eastern U.S. I've made
some of the boards and battens on my shop of log run walnut. You can't tell
now, after somethinng like 4 years, but it looked kind of odd the first 3
seasons.
Charlie Self
"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without
integrity is dangerous and dreadful."
Samuel Johnson
The beetles really go for the sapwood in black walnut. After drying though, the heartwood
is fairly resistant.
Myx
"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 18 Sep 2003 16:55:08 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
> wrote:
>
> >Walnut is moderately durable, at least that found in the eastern U.S
>
> Maybe your cold winters kill the bugs ? Our UK winters are mild, and
> it's difficult even to air-dry walnut, because it keeps attracting
> borers even when dried.
>
> We don't have red oak in the UK. A very few ornamental trees, and
> some imported timber. Our white oak species (Q. petraea and Q. robur)
> aren't quite the same as your Q. alba.
>
On 18 Sep 2003 16:55:08 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>Walnut is moderately durable, at least that found in the eastern U.S
Maybe your cold winters kill the bugs ? Our UK winters are mild, and
it's difficult even to air-dry walnut, because it keeps attracting
borers even when dried.
We don't have red oak in the UK. A very few ornamental trees, and
some imported timber. Our white oak species (Q. petraea and Q. robur)
aren't quite the same as your Q. alba.
Andy Dingley asks:
>On 18 Sep 2003 16:55:08 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
>wrote:
>
>>Walnut is moderately durable, at least that found in the eastern U.S
>
>Maybe your cold winters kill the bugs ? Our UK winters are mild, and
>it's difficult even to air-dry walnut, because it keeps attracting
>borers even when dried.
Dunno about weather differences. Where I live in Virginia, it seldom gets below
10 deg. F. though I have seen it as low as 5 below zip (again, F.). That
happened about 18 years ago, and it hasn't come within 10 degrees of that
since.
I dry my own walnut, with no borer problems. What version is yours? Ours is J.
nigra. Durability may well differ. My references list only J. cinerea in the
family: that's butternut, and it is non-durable to a fare thee well.
I've got little info on English oak. I know I had some one time, and it was at
least as hard as white oak, but a much deeper tan. I see that Q. robur is
susceptible to beetle damage. Q. petraea isn't in any of my references. Durn.
Thought I might learn a bit more.
Charlie Self
"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without
integrity is dangerous and dreadful."
Samuel Johnson
On 18 Sep 2003 18:03:42 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>Dunno about weather differences. Where I live in Virginia, it seldom gets below
>10 deg. F.
England is all an Atlantic coastal climate - you can't get more than
100 miles from the sea, whatever you do. We probably see similar
temperatures to that, but a cold snap like that is a one or two day
occurrence every few years, not a couple of month's predictable
weather.
>I dry my own walnut, with no borer problems. What version is yours? Ours is J.
>nigra. Durability may well differ.
There's no native English walnut; ours are mainly J. regia (the
European walnut) or American Black. There's a guy near Oxford
collecting a large world seed-source for walnuts and trying to find
the best English cultivars. I'd love to grow some, but it's a
sobering thought that you don't plant walnuts for your kids, but for
your great-grandkids.
>I've got little info on English oak. I know I had some one time, and it was at
>least as hard as white oak, but a much deeper tan. I see that Q. robur is
>susceptible to beetle damage. Q. petraea isn't in any of my references. Durn.
>Thought I might learn a bit more.
Q. robur is the pedunculate oak; acorns on stalks, leaves have
"earlobes" either side of the stalk. Q. petraea is the sessile oak;
acorns sat right down, no auricles on the leaves. Both are native
throughout Europe, right out to the Caucasus, but Q. petraea doesn't
extend north-eastwards into the cold of Finland and Russia.
You can't tell the timber apart, but the trees grow differently.
Sessile oak has less trouble with epicormics (branches budding from
low-down on an already mature trunk). Most existing trees are
pedunculate, but new planting has to be sessile, if you want the
planting grants.
As timber, all my oak is locally felled. There's a lot of French oak
imported in recent years - don't know why, but they seem to be felling
everything they can get. There's also plenty of American white (and a
little red). Most of this is low-grade though, no-one seems to import
the good stuff. American white oaks are softer than English oaks - our
stuff can be _very_ hard going sometimes.
As to pests, then there's a few of them. but no really serious ones.
Longhorn beetles are extremely common, but not a big problem. They're
rife in freshly felled timber and the larvae may hatch from dried
timber. The tunnels are large (1/4") and the beetles (and their
antennae!) enormous. But they navigate well, so they typically only
eat out a larvae-width layer at the top of the sapwood. Only the more
clueless ones put the occasional tunnel into the heartwood. Apart from
the House Longhorn (SE England (and Europe) only), they don't damage
dried timber. The common furniture and powder-post beetles will
attack dry timber, but make small holes.
Andy Dingley responds:
>Dunno about weather differences. Where I live in Virginia, it seldom gets
>below
>>10 deg. F.
>
>England is all an Atlantic coastal climate - you can't get more than
>100 miles from the sea, whatever you do. We probably see similar
>temperatures to that, but a cold snap like that is a one or two day
>occurrence every few years, not a couple of month's predictable
>weather.
Not a couple months. It gets cold in early December, but cold is relative. I
spent a lot of time in upstate NY (Albany area) when I was much younger and
winters there tend to be an experience. Sometimes 25 or more below zero, windy,
lots of snow. Average snowfall in my area of VA is probably 18", with the top
amount 63" (seen close to that much in one Albany storm back in the late '60s).
But, though central VA temps may drop to 10 at 6 a.m., by 2-3 p.m., they'll
almost always be above freezing, often in the low 40s. Which is what helps
create ice problems.
I wouldn't really want to sleep outside without a good sleeping bag from late
November through about late March, but it's possible to readily survive without
it, if you keep your head.
We're maybe 160 miles inland, maybe 170. One day, I'll clock it. But we're
right in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Appalachian chain), so we
get some modifying influence there.
And, with luck, in 6-8 weeks I'll have this house sold and be back there!
Charlie Self
"Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and
steady dedication of a lifetime. "
Adlai E. Stevenson
On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:51:19 +0000, Abe wrote:
> This is a little off-topic, but: I'd like to fill in some knot-holes in
> fascia boards on the front of my house to improve their appearance. Can
> I just clean up the holes, use Bondo (or wood putty, or something like
> that) and paint over the repairs? I'm worried about creating conditions
> that will encourage dry rot. N.b. The surfaces to be repaired are
> vertical, and exposed to the weather.
I had a woodpecker peck some holes through the 1x6 cedar siding in the gable
end of my old house. I think it was something like "Rock Hard", a
powdered product you mix with water that I used to fill the holes. I
worked great and took the house stain OK.
The woodpecker almost broke his pecker when he came back and tried to go
through that stuff.
-Doug
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> John Smith asks:
>
> >I was talking to someone who wants me to build them a table. I have no
> >problems with that -- I've built tables before. But this one is supposed to
> >be for outside, where it has to face the weather (including the harsh
> >Canadian winters). I've never built outdoor furniture before, and am not
> >familiar with what materails work well.
> >
> >What woods are good for outdoors? How would I go about treating the wood?
> >Also, what kind of glue should I be using?
>
> Cedar, redwood, cypress, walnut, locust: check any good reference tome on woods
> to add to the list of durable woods, including purpleheart and other exotics.
>
> Don't treat it. Let it turn gray, or finish with exterior varnish (will
> probably need refinishing every 2-3-4 years, depending on exposure, quality of
> finish, quality of application).
>
> Use polyurethane or resorcinol adhesive.
>
> Design joints to drain, and don't fit them as tightly as you would for an
> indoor project.
This is a little off-topic, but: I'd like to fill in some knot-holes in
fascia boards on the front of my house to improve their appearance. Can
I just clean up the holes, use Bondo (or wood putty, or something like
that) and paint over the repairs? I'm worried about creating conditions
that will encourage dry rot. N.b. The surfaces to be repaired are
vertical, and exposed to the weather.
Cheers,
Abe
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 05:51:19 +0000, Abe wrote:
>
>
> > This is a little off-topic, but: I'd like to fill in some knot-holes in
> > fascia boards on the front of my house to improve their appearance. Can
> > I just clean up the holes, use Bondo (or wood putty, or something like
> > that) and paint over the repairs? I'm worried about creating conditions
> > that will encourage dry rot. N.b. The surfaces to be repaired are
> > vertical, and exposed to the weather.
>
> I had a woodpecker peck some holes through the 1x6 cedar siding in the gable
> end of my old house. I think it was something like "Rock Hard", a
> powdered product you mix with water that I used to fill the holes. I
> worked great and took the house stain OK.
>
> The woodpecker almost broke his pecker when he came back and tried to go
> through that stuff.
>
> -Doug
>
Doug -- thanks. I'll see if I can find some "Rock Hard". N.b. I love
woodpeckers, but the little buggers can certainly be troublesome.
--
A numeral would be more efficient than spelling out "ONE" in an email
addy, don't you think?
The product you are thinking of may be "Durham's Water Putty" IIRC it
says something about drying rock hard on the label.
--
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]
How about Iroko? I think it has durability similar to that of Teak, but is
_much_ cheaper.
"John Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I was talking to someone who wants me to build them a table. I have no
> problems with that -- I've built tables before. But this one is supposed
to
> be for outside, where it has to face the weather (including the harsh
> Canadian winters). I've never built outdoor furniture before, and am not
> familiar with what materails work well.
>
> What woods are good for outdoors? How would I go about treating the wood?
> Also, what kind of glue should I be using?
>
> This would be my first paid project, so I'm rather exited about it and
want
> to do a good job.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
"putz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:59:43 +0100, Andy Dingley
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:44:18 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >
> >>Redwood, Cypress, White oak, Cedar, Teak, pressure treated pine
(okay,
> >>but not for food stuff or children).
> >
> >I'm surprised to see walnut and white oak on those lists. They don't
> >last outdoors in England. Oak does, but only for big pieces (timber
> >framed houses) and it looks pretty scabby close up.
> >
> >I'd add larch too.
> >
>
> I never heard walnut is a good outdoor wood (maybe it is I don't
> know). There's a big difference between white oak and other kinds of
> oak. Any wood used for boatbuilding is a good choice.
Walnut was widely used for sills because insects and rot don't
particularly care for it. Of course that was when you harvested your
own wood and had the ability to use the right wood for the right job.
Now with economic constraints, it doesn't really make sense.
Frank Nakashima notes:
>Walnut was widely used for sills because insects and rot don't
>particularly care for it. Of course that was when you harvested your
>own wood and had the ability to use the right wood for the right job.
>Now with economic constraints, it doesn't really make sense.
Uh, well...it's been some time since I bought walnut, but the last time around,
I almost had my tailgate dragging on an 8' Dodge pick up full of green log run
walnut at 75 cents a bf.
As I said, I used some of it for siding and battens, but that REALLY was cull
stock.
Charlie Self
"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without
integrity is dangerous and dreadful."
Samuel Johnson
On 18 Sep 2003 18:05:56 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>Uh, well...it's been some time since I bought walnut, but the last time around,
>I almost had my tailgate dragging on an 8' Dodge pick up full of green log run
>walnut at 75 cents a bf.
Talking of walnut, here's a recent post from alt.crafts.blacksmithing.
Take a look at the pictures.
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:51:28 -0700, Grant Erwin
<[email protected]> wrote:
I finished my version of the "chunk of wood" anvil stand today. I
learned quite a lot. This anvil stand started with a walnut stump.
The wood is roughly 12x12x22" and is bound on both top and bottom
with 2x¼" steel flat bar. Since the wood is green, I sealed it to
slow the drying process hoping to keep it from cracking. Of course,
with the ends bound in steel (driven on tightly, the steel had to
stretch 1/16" to fit on) I'm hoping it won't crack anyway.
The anvil isn't fastened down to the top - it's just secured from
moving. I can "walk" the anvil/stand around my shop - portability
is a must in my small shop - without the anvil coming loose, but
if I need to put them in a truck and drive away I can just lift
the anvil off and move them separately.
The ends of the block aren't quite flat. Either is my floor, so
I'll be kicking a wedge under a corner. The anvil doesn't quite
sit flat on the top but a piece of thin aluminum sheet metal as
a shim works very well. With the shim and wedge it sits dead solid.
I used bullseye shellac. I'm sure the hot scale will tear it up but
I felt I had to do something.
Next step is to get all the blue paint off the anvil, then start
on the forge.
Pix:
http://www.tinyisland.com/images/anvilstand.jpg
http://www.tinyisland.com/images/anviliron.jpg
Grant Erwin
Kirkland, Washington
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Frank Nakashima notes:
>
> >Walnut was widely used for sills because insects and rot don't
> >particularly care for it. Of course that was when you harvested
your
> >own wood and had the ability to use the right wood for the right job.
> >Now with economic constraints, it doesn't really make sense.
>
> Uh, well...it's been some time since I bought walnut, but the last
time around,
> I almost had my tailgate dragging on an 8' Dodge pick up full of green
log run
> walnut at 75 cents a bf.
>
And I went to the store for a bag of apples and came back with a sack of
oranges. Since nobody's going to use green log run walnut for sills, it
sounds like you did as well. IOW, try comparing the cost of 6/4 KD
walnut with treated lumber.
Frank Nakashima writes:
>>
>
>And I went to the store for a bag of apples and came back with a sack of
>oranges. Since nobody's going to use green log run walnut for sills, it
>sounds like you did as well. IOW, try comparing the cost of 6/4 KD
>walnut with treated lumber.
>
For pete's sake. I really DO have sense enough to dry the shit before I use it
for anything important! That lumber has built numerous projects: log run turns
out a reasonable amount of FAS lumber (about 50% in this case), with culls
useful for other things, like siding and birdhouses and whatnot.
IMO, buying fully dried hardwood is about like burning money. A little patience
and some stickers are required, but you can easily reduce your wood costs by
65% when you start with green lumber. Too, particularly in the case walnut,
most kilns steam the stuff, creating a mushy brown look. Air dried is far more
attractive.
Point being, really, if you think ahead a bit, paying whatever FAS 6/4 walnut
costs need not be all that painful. Probably roughly $1.90 a board foot.
Charlie Self
"Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and
steady dedication of a lifetime. "
Adlai E. Stevenson
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Frank Nakashima writes:
>
> >>
> >
> >And I went to the store for a bag of apples and came back with a sack
of
> >oranges. Since nobody's going to use green log run walnut for sills,
it
> >sounds like you did as well. IOW, try comparing the cost of 6/4 KD
> >walnut with treated lumber.
> >
>
> For pete's sake. I really DO have sense enough to dry the shit before
I use it
> for anything important! That lumber has built numerous projects: log
run turns
> out a reasonable amount of FAS lumber (about 50% in this case), with
culls
> useful for other things, like siding and birdhouses and whatnot.
>
> IMO, buying fully dried hardwood is about like burning money. A little
patience
> and some stickers are required, but you can easily reduce your wood
costs by
> 65% when you start with green lumber. Too, particularly in the case
walnut,
> most kilns steam the stuff, creating a mushy brown look. Air dried is
far more
> attractive.
>
> Point being, really, if you think ahead a bit, paying whatever FAS 6/4
walnut
> costs need not be all that painful. Probably roughly $1.90 a board
foot.
>
> Charlie Self
>
> "Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the
tranquil and
> steady dedication of a lifetime. "
> Adlai E. Stevenson
>
If you'll recall, we were talking about using it as sills for houses.
Most home builders aren't going to buy a bunch of green walnut, sticker
it, air dry it, mill it, etc. If they REALLY wanted to use walnut, they
would buy it already dried and milled. That's why I said it isn't
economically feasible to use walnut for sills. Not to mention the fact
that even at 1.90 bf, (excluding all the labor to mill, dry etc.)
treated lumber is still cheaper.
I want to think that I read that the "bog oak" or oak that has been
buried in bogs is very good for this purpose. Maybe someone over there
will know. I can't remember the name ya'll use for it.
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:25:29 -0500, D K Woods
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>What woods are good for outdoors? How would I go about treating the wood?
>>>Also, what kind of glue should I be using?
>>
>> Cedar, redwood, cypress, walnut, locust: check any good reference tome on woods
>> to add to the list of durable woods, including purpleheart and other exotics.
>>
>> Don't treat it. Let it turn gray, or finish with exterior varnish
>
>Likewise with the exterior varnish (spar urethane is a popular choice), use
>an exterior grade waterproof glue.
>
>As for woods, I see a lot of ads for Ipe (a type of ironwood I believe)
>decks, and though I've never used Ipe myself I would assume that to be good
>for decks it would have similar qualities as what you need.
>
>david
On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:59:43 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:44:18 GMT, Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Redwood, Cypress, White oak, Cedar, Teak, pressure treated pine (okay,
>>but not for food stuff or children).
>
>I'm surprised to see walnut and white oak on those lists. They don't
>last outdoors in England. Oak does, but only for big pieces (timber
>framed houses) and it looks pretty scabby close up.
>
>I'd add larch too.
>
I never heard walnut is a good outdoor wood (maybe it is I don't
know). There's a big difference between white oak and other kinds of
oak. Any wood used for boatbuilding is a good choice.
I have made a number of porch swings out of Cypress,
which is inexpensive in this area (Atlanta). One has been hanging from an
A-frame in the weather (not sheltered) for six months without any visible
sign of deterioration. Also made a window box which has been weathering for
3 years with no sign of deterioration. Cypress is easy to work with but not
very hard. It is not necessary to put a finish on it, but a coat of Tung
Oil with a UV inhibitor gives it a nice appearance and probably helps
preserve the wood.
Fred
"John Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I was talking to someone who wants me to build them a table. I have no
> problems with that -- I've built tables before. But this one is supposed
to
> be for outside, where it has to face the weather (including the harsh
> Canadian winters). I've never built outdoor furniture before, and am not
> familiar with what materails work well.
>
> What woods are good for outdoors? How would I go about treating the wood?
> Also, what kind of glue should I be using?
>
> This would be my first paid project, so I'm rather exited about it and
want
> to do a good job.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>>What woods are good for outdoors? How would I go about treating the wood?
>>Also, what kind of glue should I be using?
>
> Cedar, redwood, cypress, walnut, locust: check any good reference tome on woods
> to add to the list of durable woods, including purpleheart and other exotics.
>
> Don't treat it. Let it turn gray, or finish with exterior varnish
Likewise with the exterior varnish (spar urethane is a popular choice), use
an exterior grade waterproof glue.
As for woods, I see a lot of ads for Ipe (a type of ironwood I believe)
decks, and though I've never used Ipe myself I would assume that to be good
for decks it would have similar qualities as what you need.
david
--
It is of interest to note that while some dolphins are reported to have
learned English -- up to 50 words used in correct context -- no human being
has been reported to have learned dolphinese.
-- Carl Sagan
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