On Dec 11, 12:39=A0am, Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
> Want to dye maple jet black. =A0Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
> silver grey, but not black. =A0Water-soluble, also warps wood more
> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
Since you are wanting "jet black", I assume you mean an opaque
colorant.
Why don't you use black lacquer? It isn't water based, works well,
and will be completely black with just a couple of coats.
If you don't like the sheen, then you can burnish it to a satin with a
little elbow grease.
Then of course, there is always a super high quality paint that mimics
lacquer in appearance but will be available over the counter in the
sheen you want.
Robert
On Dec 11, 12:40=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Dec 11, 8:54=A0am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > > Try black leather (or shoe) dye. A few hours after it dries, wipe it
> > > with a soft cloth. A coat of oil or varnish will seal the color in th=
e
> > > wood.
> > That won't yield a jet black finish though.
>
> Even more fun than that would be getting any kind of finish such as
> varnish to stick on certain dyes.
>
> To penetrate the leather, *some* have a large amount of animal fat
> based oils in suspension them to hold the colorants. =A0
Tallow. Not sure if shellac sticks to it, or if fully dries. Result
is, the piece gets gunked up fast if kept in a dusty environment.
> Some of them
> also have waxes in them that allow them to be buffed for a light
> sheen.
>
> Not only would you have an uneven finish because of the porosity of
> the maple, but likely not much would stick it after dye/oil/wax is
> applied.
Right. I'd prefer to stick with commercial dyes made for wood,
like SolarLuxe. Zero experience, though. Anyone?
> Personally, I have never understood why folks try to make finishing so
> hard by trying to reinvent the wheel. =A0If you have a tiny project,
> India ink is good choice. =A0Not such a good idea with a book case, a
> grandfather clock, etc. as it is too expensive to be practical. =A0Nor
> does it always give predictable results. =A0Why would you use ink when
> you can apply color and finish in one step and build from there?
>
> And I have absolutely no remote clue why anyone would use a vinegar
> based solution with unknown metals partially dissolved in it. =A0
Iron, AFAIK.
> You can
> never match the density of the solids in a manufactured product (which
> some contain powdered metals of >>exact<< specification and particle
> size) by throwing filings and old nails and screws in a jar of vinegar
> for a couple of weeks. =A0Then of course, after application you leave
> behind the traces of acetic acid from the vinegar along with any other
> impurities you introduced from your garage lab...
>
> Go to a good paint store, get what you need, apply it as per
> instructions. =A0Read a bit on the internet to learn about possible
> pitfalls. =A0Be prepared when you start. =A0Have an afternoon of
> successful finishing while enjoying a cup of coffee. =A0Done.
>
> Robert
Lots of ways to finish, lots of ways to make a project
unique.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Dec 11, 12:39 am, Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
> Want to dye maple jet black. Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
> silver grey, but not black. Water-soluble, also warps wood more
> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
Since you are wanting "jet black", I assume you mean an opaque
colorant.
Why don't you use black lacquer? It isn't water based, works well,
and will be completely black with just a couple of coats.
[...]
He is right. IME it is not possible to totally blacken wood by stain/dye,
you will see the grain no matter how many coats you apply. You need to use a
black laquer.
Tim W
Father Haskell wrote:
> Want to dye maple jet black. Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
> silver grey, but not black. Water-soluble, also warps wood more
> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
How much maple? Marking pens get stuff nice and black, so does India ink
but I don't know if it comes in other than a water base.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On Dec 11, 4:52=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Dec 11, 12:39=A0am, Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Want to dye maple jet black. =A0Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
> > silver grey, but not black. =A0Water-soluble, also warps wood more
> > than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
>
> Since you are wanting "jet black", I assume you mean an opaque
> colorant.
>
> Why don't you use black lacquer? =A0It isn't water based, works well,
> and will be completely black with just a couple of coats.
Want the grain to be visible if you look *very* close. Keeps
it interesting.
> If you don't like the sheen, then you can burnish it to a satin with a
> little elbow grease.
French polish on my last guitar neck was like glass. This
one will be even shinier.
On Dec 11, 5:59=A0pm, Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
> Right. =A0I'd prefer to stick with commercial dyes made for wood,
> like SolarLuxe. =A0Zero experience, though. =A0Anyone?
I have used SolarLux for years and personally can't recommend them
enough. Unlike the water based stuff, these have tremendous fade
resistance.
They saturate well, you can thin them to apply them using different
methods (I sometimes spray this stuff) and mix them with other colors
to make them your own blends. They also do an excellent tone on
tone. Great shelf life, reasonably priced and easy to use. Love that
stuff.
> > And I have absolutely no remote clue why anyone would use a vinegar
> > based solution with unknown metals partially dissolved in it. =A0
> Iron, AFAIK.
Yes, but ONE of the keys to good finishing is repeatability. Scratch
made homebrews with different materials (this time use filings,
another use nails, another use cleaned steel wool, etc.) make colors
impossible to duplicate. Additionally, they carry the distinct
possibility of carrying contaminants to your finish.
> Lots of ways to finish, lots of ways to make a project
> unique.
I will certainly grant you that. Finishing is part art, part
experience, and part science. Any of those variables can be twisted
to have an acceptable outcome. I guess because I do it professionally
I need to be able to replicate the colors and finishes without any
guessing or hassle.
I live fairly close to the Texas border. I remember going down to
their furniture stores across the border and there were all kinds of
things that were done to wood in a very bohemian way.
They used tar dissolved in gasoline to make a black glaze for pine.
After it dried, they could even buff it up a bit. They used old
rusted nails and who knows what dissolved in containers with light
acid (muratic/pool most likely) to speed things up. This was their
"brown" dye.
A little known fact is that the 78s (records) made here were made from
shellac, or a shellac blend. So it was common practice among the
thrifty minded finishers to smash the records to dust and melt them as
you would regular shellac for finishing use. (I always wonder about
those dark hued pieces....)
So there are many ways to skin the cat. I just don't make it one step
harder than I need to. I get no joy out of making a color I may or
may not like from old household items (and couldn't match again on a
bet), brewing up a finish that may or may not be something that works,
or taking the time to do either.
Robert
[email protected] wrote:
> On Dec 11, 1:39 am, Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Want to dye maple jet black. Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
>> silver grey, but not black. Water-soluble, also warps wood more
>> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
>
> Try black leather (or shoe) dye. A few hours after it dries, wipe it
> with a soft cloth. A coat of oil or varnish will seal the color in the
> wood.
That won't yield a jet black finish though.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> There was a time you could buy a quart / liter of India Ink
> at an art supply store. Pen and ink types like lots of ink.
You still can at the right store. Dick Blick's lists their store brand
India Ink for $11.99 a quart and Speedball for 14.99. And Sennelier for
about four times as much.
> There are also block ink - dehydrated.
Blick has Japanese block ink but not dried India.
>
> Martin
>
> On 12/11/2010 9:53 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> > I'll second the India ink, I have used it very successfully.
> >
> > Just make sure you wear nytril gloves whenever dying. I usually will put
> > two layers on when dealing with certain woods. because they can tear the
> > first layer. Consider dyes and India ink to be close to tattoo ink.
> >
> > On 12/11/2010 8:03 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> >> Father Haskell wrote:
> >>> Want to dye maple jet black. Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
> >>> silver grey, but not black. Water-soluble, also warps wood more
> >>> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
> >>
> >> How much maple? Marking pens get stuff nice and black, so does India ink
> >> but I don't know if it comes in other than a water base.
> >>
There was a time you could buy a quart / liter of India Ink
at an art supply store. Pen and ink types like lots of ink.
There are also block ink - dehydrated.
Martin
On 12/11/2010 9:53 AM, tiredofspam wrote:
> I'll second the India ink, I have used it very successfully.
>
> Just make sure you wear nytril gloves whenever dying. I usually will put
> two layers on when dealing with certain woods. because they can tear the
> first layer. Consider dyes and India ink to be close to tattoo ink.
>
> On 12/11/2010 8:03 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Father Haskell wrote:
>>> Want to dye maple jet black. Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
>>> silver grey, but not black. Water-soluble, also warps wood more
>>> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
>>
>> How much maple? Marking pens get stuff nice and black, so does India ink
>> but I don't know if it comes in other than a water base.
>>
On Dec 11, 1:39=A0am, Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
> Want to dye maple jet black. =A0Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
> silver grey, but not black. =A0Water-soluble, also warps wood more
> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
Water won't warp your piece as bad as you think. I had a similar
problem when I wanted to dye poplar black without the green bleeding
through.
I mixed a small container of Transfast black dye into 1 (or 1-1/4)
cups of water (and yes I know the directions say it makes a lot more
than that). Then added 1 small container of india ink. Put it in a
squirt bottle and tried it out. Added another bottle of india ink and
it worked well. The only draw back is that it will leave a white
residue on the surface that you can wipe off. Then I followed with 2
coats of ebony stain. Coated it with 2 coats of MW satin poly. I will
warn you that if you spill anything on the finish before the poly is
applied, the black will lift some and you can't fix it. It will give
you a nice jet black finish.
The only other thing might be multiple coats of Minwax Ebony stain
then followed with a couple of coats of a tinted shellac. Or you might
want to experiment with:
Ink jet printer ink (the refill bottles)
RIT dyes ( for clothing)
India ink
The only problem is that maple doesn't contain very much tannin and
that is why the vinegar/steel wool didn't work very well. if you DAGS
"tannin tea" or "ebonizing maple" you will get pointed more on what to
do.
Allen
On Dec 11, 1:39=A0am, Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
> Want to dye maple jet black. =A0Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
> silver grey, but not black. =A0Water-soluble, also warps wood more
> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
Try black leather (or shoe) dye. A few hours after it dries, wipe it
with a soft cloth. A coat of oil or varnish will seal the color in the
wood.
On Dec 11, 8:54=A0am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > Try black leather (or shoe) dye. A few hours after it dries, wipe it
> > with a soft cloth. A coat of oil or varnish will seal the color in the
> > wood.
> That won't yield a jet black finish though.
Even more fun than that would be getting any kind of finish such as
varnish to stick on certain dyes.
To penetrate the leather, *some* have a large amount of animal fat
based oils in suspension them to hold the colorants. Some of them
also have waxes in them that allow them to be buffed for a light
sheen.
Not only would you have an uneven finish because of the porosity of
the maple, but likely not much would stick it after dye/oil/wax is
applied.
Personally, I have never understood why folks try to make finishing so
hard by trying to reinvent the wheel. If you have a tiny project,
India ink is good choice. Not such a good idea with a book case, a
grandfather clock, etc. as it is too expensive to be practical. Nor
does it always give predictable results. Why would you use ink when
you can apply color and finish in one step and build from there?
And I have absolutely no remote clue why anyone would use a vinegar
based solution with unknown metals partially dissolved in it. You can
never match the density of the solids in a manufactured product (which
some contain powdered metals of >>exact<< specification and particle
size) by throwing filings and old nails and screws in a jar of vinegar
for a couple of weeks. Then of course, after application you leave
behind the traces of acetic acid from the vinegar along with any other
impurities you introduced from your garage lab...
Go to a good paint store, get what you need, apply it as per
instructions. Read a bit on the internet to learn about possible
pitfalls. Be prepared when you start. Have an afternoon of
successful finishing while enjoying a cup of coffee. Done.
Robert
On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 01:52:12 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>> Want to dye maple jet black. Â Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
>> silver grey, but not black. Â Water-soluble, also warps wood more than
>> alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
>
> Since you are wanting "jet black", I assume you mean an opaque colorant.
Only the OP knows, but I assume he wants the grain to show through. If
not all he has to do is buy some black paint and I doubt he'd post here
if that were the case.
I'd use black alcohol compatible dye mixed into shellac. If I had spray
equipment I'd probably just mix the dye with the proper amount of alcohol
and skip the shellac, but I've never had any luck applying alcohol based
dye directly by hand - it dries too fast.
On a really large piece even shellac is too quick-drying. I'd mix water
based dye into a water based finish.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
: Want to dye maple jet black. Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
: silver grey, but not black. Water-soluble, also warps wood more
: than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
Indian ink will give you a deep black, and not obscure the grain.
-- Andy Barss
Father Haskell wrote:
> Want to dye maple jet black. Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
> silver grey, but not black. Water-soluble, also warps wood more
> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
Early in 2010 there was a discussion on here about ebonizing wood,
triggered by an article by Brian Boggs in Popular Woodworking. It
involved using quebracho extract (used in the taxidermy field) to add
tannin to the wood, and then applying vinegar/iron solution. I bought
the extract, tried out the recipe on maple, with stunning results. It
took 2 or 3 cycles of the application, but the result was really black
maple, similar to coal.
cheers ...
brian
Stillwater Lake, Nova Scotia
On Sat, 11 Dec 2010 18:44:49 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Father Haskell <[email protected]> wrote:
>: Want to dye maple jet black. Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
>: silver grey, but not black. Water-soluble, also warps wood more
>: than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
>
>
>Indian ink will give you a deep black, and not obscure the grain.
>
Another easily accessible cheap solution is ink jet ink. Black ink
comes in both dye and pigment form and is available for about $5 for 4
ounces.
>-- Andy Barss
I'll second the India ink, I have used it very successfully.
Just make sure you wear nytril gloves whenever dying. I usually will put
two layers on when dealing with certain woods. because they can tear
the first layer. Consider dyes and India ink to be close to tattoo ink.
On 12/11/2010 8:03 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Father Haskell wrote:
>> Want to dye maple jet black. Vinegar / iron solution gives a nice,
>> silver grey, but not black. Water-soluble, also warps wood more
>> than alcohol or oil-based, prefer not to use water-based.
>
> How much maple? Marking pens get stuff nice and black, so does India ink
> but I don't know if it comes in other than a water base.
>