Replacing kitchen floor

"B A R R Y" wrote

> The same house had 3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom walls
> that a previous owner plastered over!

Probably could stand the sight of all that beautiful wood! LOL

I have seen that sort of thing many times as well. It is like my wife
screaming every time she sees Nahm painting a nice wood project.

"PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:gq3il.3762$%[email protected]...
Snip

>
>

Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the part
of the builder?

At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were installed
before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, I would also
have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.

P D Q


Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and never to be
seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost cutter, one that
makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe
moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet under
them also?

What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
never see?

Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your cabinets
before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you can find one that
will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.

Do you live in the USA?

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> writes:
>
>"B A R R Y" wrote
>
>> The same house had 3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom walls
>> that a previous owner plastered over!
>
>Probably could stand the sight of all that beautiful wood! LOL
>
>I have seen that sort of thing many times as well. It is like my wife
>screaming every time she sees Nahm painting a nice wood project.
>

I've seen this before too. Dark rooms aren't currently fashionable, so
folks paint the mahog walls to brighten things up. 99% of the public
aren't woodworkers and only see dark walls, not rare mahogany.

scott

PDQ wrote:
> My cabinetmaker did a fine job of future consideration when building these cabinets.

That's not what he was thinking of when he built them that way. While
it worked out well for you, most flooring is not run under existing
cabinetry. I installed tile, hardwood, and vinyl professionally for
several years.

Nowadays, most mass-produced cabinets, regardless of the size of the
shop that built them, are built like yours. It's done for shipping,
installation, and parts-standardization on the shop floor reasons. Many
installers might mount them a tad more elaborately than yours are,
especially if the sub floor isn't that level or well-built.

In older, and some new high-end stuff, the newer it is, the higher-end
it will be to see this... it's common to see extremely high quality
cabinetry and built-ins that are either built in place right on site, or
permanently assembled in place. The builders will go to great lengths
to hide fasteners, too.

Some "average quality" stuff installed in very well settled (read
"whacked", not-so level floors) antique homes is much easier to install
on plywood toe-kick bases that are blocked and shimmed level before the
boxes are set. Last summer, I did a small kitchen in a 1740's home that
would have been a nightmare without separate bases. The same house had
3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom walls that a previous
owner plastered over!

On Feb 4, 9:16=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:gq3il.3762$%[email protected]...
> Snip
>
>
>
> Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the par=
t
> of the builder?
>
> At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were install=
ed
> before the finish floor. =A0If I were having new flooring laid, I would a=
lso
> have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.
>
> P D Q
>
> Which begs the question, =A0WHY would you want more expensive and never t=
o be
> seen flooring to be under your cabinets? =A0It is a cost cutter, one that
> makes sense. =A0If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe
> moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet unde=
r
> them also?
>
> What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you wil=
l
> never see?
>
> Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your cabinets
> before putting down a new floor. =A0You will be lucky if you can find one=
that
> will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.
>
> Do you live in the USA?

Back in the mid 1990s I redid the flooring and cabinetry in two
kitchens. Rooms were stripped bare of all cabinets. I ran the
flooring wall to wall. Although in the ceramic tile floor I did use
gray tiles when I needed extras under the cabinets. White in the
visible area. And grout lines were not finished as much under the
cabinets. But the whole floor had the same thickness of tile and
cement backboard. The 25 feet of linear cabinets and the 50 square
feet of tile under the cabinets at $1 per square foot of tile was not
a big deal given the cost of the entire job. $50 extra for tile under
the cabinets. Big deal. It made the installation of the cabinets
more than $50 easier later on. Extra backer board was required too.
Little extra cost too. Also no bid deal. Running from wall to wall
was easier than stopping exactly, exactly at the edge of the
cabinetry. If I was laying tile in one kitchen a week or two a week
the cost would add up more.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
> never see?

I don't agree. Once you go that route, you're locked into the exact
placement of those cabinets. What happens if you want to put in new cabinets
some time in the future? Unlikely they'd be the same size and shape. You'd
be trying to hide areas where you didn't install flooring.

And certainly on a new build, it's much easier to install an entire floor
than to take the time to modify and cut flooring to fit around cabinets
installed before the flooring. Just doesn't make any sense. Maybe as a
contractor, get the job done and get out, possibly. For something I'd build
for my own use, certainly not.

Thank all of you for your replies.

It seems unanimous that to do the job properly I need to remove the
base cabinets. That makes sense and that's what I'll do.

With that said I may combine the later project (new cabinets) with
this project. Will there never be an end to this madness? :-(

G.S.

" =A0If the cabinets are sight-built it "

Even worse if built by a blind man

Dave in Houston wrote:
> "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to
>
> 1. Pull the base cabinets.
>
>
> Perhaps easier said than done. If the cabinets are sight-built it
> becomes a demo project.

Even if they're not site-built, some cabinetmakers use separate leveled
bases under the boxes.

PDQ wrote:

> 3. Peel off all the vinyl. don't want to lay tile over vinyl.

Had a house with linoleum over concrete slab in the entry way. Tile guy
did a rough sanding on the linoleum and tiled over it. I was
skeptical, but never a problem in the ten years I lived in the house.

PDQ wrote:
>
>
> If they cannot be moved and replaced without undue effort the "cabinetmaker" was not doing the job right.

Are you kidding?

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:14:28 -0600, Gordon Shumway
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
>under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
>place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
>the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
>and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
>and reinstall the cabinets?


If you go back on top, with much more thickness, you may not be able
to get the dishwasher back in.

Mike O.

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Upscale wrote:

>>
> The major problem with re-flooring a kitchen with a thick(er) material
> around existing cabinets is the flipping dishwasher. DAMHIKT



This is something to consider however I have redone kitchens and have seen
kitchens with added tile to the existing cabinets. 90% of the time the
dishwasher comes out with out problems. You typically accomplish this by
screwing in the front adjustment feet all the way and pulling it out. Once
the front is out the back comes out pretty easily. Tall tiles or thick wood
flooring may make this a bit harder but new home construction basically goes
with the cabinets, then floor/counter top, then the appliances. Typically
the appliances go in last so that they don't mysteriously disappear.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you
>> will
>> never see?
>
> I don't agree. Once you go that route, you're locked into the exact
> placement of those cabinets. What happens if you want to put in new
> cabinets
> some time in the future? Unlikely they'd be the same size and shape. You'd
> be trying to hide areas where you didn't install flooring.

While you have valid questions, ther is no problem with putting in a
different arrangement of cabinets. You simply patch in the floor if needed.
The floor will have a match problem however if you uncover unexposed floor
ther is going to present a match problem also.



>
> And certainly on a new build, it's much easier to install an entire floor
> than to take the time to modify and cut flooring to fit around cabinets
> installed before the flooring.

It is not a good idea to expose a new floor to contractors coming in and
out and dragging equipment across the floor. Fitting in a few cabinets is
no more bother than going around wall corners, door ways, or sizing to a
room, it might add 1% more work but that will be saved in not paying for
floring that will not be used.




Just doesn't make any sense. Maybe as a
> contractor, get the job done and get out, possibly. For something I'd
> build
> for my own use, certainly not.

I suspect you might do it once but the second time around you would most
likely do it the less expensive way.

Upscale wrote:
> "B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> A large vinyl floor would require a long, straight seam that might end
>> up in an inopportune place. Fitted around cabinetry, the seams are much
>> easier to hide.
>
> Ok, let's forget the cheap alternatives for a moment. A vinyl floor IMHO, is
> relatively cheap in materials, easy to cut and easy to install. Let's go
> with tiling, slate tiling for example. Costs more, is more labour intensive
> to cut and one would not be as prone to replace it on a whim like you might
> do with vinyl.
>
> What's the consensus there? Do the whole floor after the cabinets are
> removed or just tile up to existing cabinets? The disadvantage to tiling
> while the cabinets are in place is that there's a whole lot more fitting and
> cutting, alterations in the future might mean that slate is not produced
> anymore, but money saved on material costs. Or, take out the cabinets, do
> the whole floor, spend more on materials, but have an easier install?
>
>
The major problem with re-flooring a kitchen with a thick(er) material
around existing cabinets is the flipping dishwasher. DAMHIKT

"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> PDQ wrote:
>>
>>
>> If they cannot be moved and replaced without undue effort the
>> "cabinetmaker" was not doing the job right.
>
> Are you kidding?

Exactly. Almost w/o exception, the site-built cabinets I've run across
are not individual boxes. Rather, they are frames and side panels attached
to 1x6s on the rear wall which end up supporting the rear of the counter
top. The kitchen drywall becomes the cabinet back.
How do you raise those with major disassembly?
Our answer was usually that we didn't. And, we've laid tile up to the
toe-kicks on base cabinets and cannot remember a single time that the [new]
dishwasher wouldn't go in. The refrigerator space got tile like the rest of
the floor.

Dave in Houston

Upscale wrote:
> "B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> A large vinyl floor would require a long, straight seam that might end
>> up in an inopportune place. Fitted around cabinetry, the seams are much
>> easier to hide.
>
> Ok, let's forget the cheap alternatives for a moment. A vinyl floor IMHO, is
> relatively cheap in materials, easy to cut and easy to install.

Depends on the material, but I'll move on...

> What's the consensus there? Do the whole floor after the cabinets are
> removed or just tile up to existing cabinets?

Put the cabinets in first.

> The disadvantage to tiling
> while the cabinets are in place is that there's a whole lot more fitting and
> cutting, alterations in the future might mean that slate is not produced
> anymore, but money saved on material costs. Or, take out the cabinets, do
> the whole floor, spend more on materials, but have an easier install?

The install isn't that much easier, unless the whole floor accepts whole
tiles wall to wall.

I'll respect your option to do your own home as you like.

Just went through a similar project and agree with most below, except I
used 1/4 inch cement board as an underlayment over a marginal subfloor.
Results are excellent.

PDQ wrote:
> Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to
>
> 1. Pull the base cabinets.
>
> 2. Pull the floor trim. Your tile will not have to be cut quite as precisely as it would require if the moldings were not pulled.
>
>
> 3. Peel off all the vinyl. don't want to lay tile over vinyl.
>
> 4. Inspect the subfloor to see if any parts need replacing. Now would be a good time to add squeak silencers (screws into the noisy joists).
>
> 5. If the subfloor is good stuff, lay 1/4 inch plywood over it and screw it in every 6 inches. Be sure the joints between the new sheets does not fall along the joints between the subfloor.
>
> 6. Get on with the tile. Wall to Wall. This way you will not have to fit your new kitchen cabinets to the old footprint
>
> 7. Replace the floor moldings and reinstall the old cabinets.
>
> Been there, done that, loved the results.
>
> P D Q
>
> "Gordon Shumway" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> Our 35 year old kitchen floor (sheet vinyl) needs to be replaced. We
>> have decided to replace it with 12" square tiles. With other
>> remodeling going on we have decided not to replace the kitchen
>> cabinets now. That will be a later project.
>>
>> The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
>> under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
>> place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
>> the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
>> and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
>> and reinstall the cabinets?
>>
>> Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> G.S.

Doug Winterburn wrote:
> Even with the front legs screwed all the way
> up, it was necessary to loosen the screws from under the cabinet fronts
> and pry the counter top loose. This wasn't easy as the counter tops had
> also been set in a silicone glue in addition to the screws.

Imagine removing your cabinets?

Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:v2Dil.12879$Pc.2393
@newsfe10.iad:

> It all
> worked out in the end, but my vocabulary was somewhat increased.
>

I hope you documented the CME credits, or continuing tile educcation
credits, as the case may be.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Gordon Shumway" wrote

> The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
> under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
> place,

Yes, but it depends ...

>along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
> the existing floor?

Depends upon the condition of the subfloor.

Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
> and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
> and reinstall the cabinets?

No, but it depends ...

> Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?

Not really ... you need an experienced builder/remodeler to evaluate _your_
situation and advise you on what best fits _your_ situation.

Simply put, no amount of guessing here will get you the best results for
_your_ situation.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> A large vinyl floor would require a long, straight seam that might end
> up in an inopportune place. Fitted around cabinetry, the seams are much
> easier to hide.

Ok, let's forget the cheap alternatives for a moment. A vinyl floor IMHO, is
relatively cheap in materials, easy to cut and easy to install. Let's go
with tiling, slate tiling for example. Costs more, is more labour intensive
to cut and one would not be as prone to replace it on a whim like you might
do with vinyl.

What's the consensus there? Do the whole floor after the cabinets are
removed or just tile up to existing cabinets? The disadvantage to tiling
while the cabinets are in place is that there's a whole lot more fitting and
cutting, alterations in the future might mean that slate is not produced
anymore, but money saved on material costs. Or, take out the cabinets, do
the whole floor, spend more on materials, but have an easier install?

"Gordon Shumway" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
> place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
> the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
> and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
> and reinstall the cabinets?

At the very least, take it down to whatever goes from wall to wall
underneath the cabinets. At that point you can decide if sub floor
reconstruction needs to be done. Redoing a floor just up to existing
cabinets is leaving yourself open to a whole lot of future cursing,
swearing, misery and burning of money.

That is of course unless you're planning on moving soon and don't care that
you'd be passing all the future cursing, swearing, misery and burning of
money onto someone else.

On Feb 4, 11:17=A0am, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:542559f6-2c0a-4894-b285-d=
[email protected]...
>
> On Feb 4, 9:16 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> > "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:gq3il.3762$%[email protected]...
> > Snip
>
> > Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the p=
art
> > of the builder?
>
> > At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were insta=
lled
> > before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, I would al=
so
> > have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.
>
> > P D Q
>
> > Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and never to=
be
> > seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost cutter, one that
> > makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe
> > moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet un=
der
> > them also?
>
> > What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you w=
ill
> > never see?
>
> > Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your cabine=
ts
> > before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you can find one =
that
> > will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.
>
> > Do you live in the USA?
>
> Back in the mid 1990s I redid the flooring and cabinetry in two
> kitchens. =A0Rooms were stripped bare of all cabinets. =A0I ran the
> flooring wall to wall. =A0Although in the ceramic tile floor I did use
> gray tiles when I needed extras under the cabinets. =A0White in the
> visible area. =A0And grout lines were not finished as much under the
> cabinets. =A0But the whole floor had the same thickness of tile and
> cement backboard. =A0The 25 feet of linear cabinets and the 50 square
> feet of tile under the cabinets at $1 per square foot of tile was not
> a big deal given the cost of the entire job. =A0$50 extra for tile under
> the cabinets. =A0Big deal. =A0It made the installation of the cabinets
> more than $50 easier later on. =A0Extra backer board was required too.
> Little extra cost too. =A0Also no bid deal. =A0Running from wall to wall
> was easier than stopping exactly, exactly at the edge of the
> cabinetry. =A0If I was laying tile in one kitchen a week or two a week
> the cost would add up more.
>
> Seems like a =A0"PAY ME NOW OR PAY ME LATER" situation. =A0I agree with y=
our thoughts. =A0Only way to do this is to explain to the end-user that the=
little extra in time and materials will save time and exasperation later o=
n and not force them into a set footprint.
>
> As far a colour differences between what's under the counter and what's o=
ut in the open - a little time and no one will be able to see the differenc=
e. =A0Besides one never goes smaller.

In my case it was white ceramic tile in the visible area. And gray
tile under some of the cabinet. Not just a little color difference.
Two different colors. I presume the white tile was out of stock when
I went to get more and the gray was there. I did put the gray tiles
in the corner under the lazy susan cabinet. Pretty sure the corner
will always have cabinets over it.




>
> P D Q- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to=20

1. Pull the base cabinets.=20
=20
2. Pull the floor trim. Your tile will not have to be cut quite as =
precisely as it would require if the moldings were not pulled.


3. Peel off all the vinyl. don't want to lay tile over vinyl.

4. Inspect the subfloor to see if any parts need replacing. Now would =
be a good time to add squeak silencers (screws into the noisy joists).

5. If the subfloor is good stuff, lay 1/4 inch plywood over it and =
screw it in every 6 inches. Be sure the joints between the new sheets =
does not fall along the joints between the subfloor.

6. Get on with the tile. Wall to Wall. This way you will not have to =
fit your new kitchen cabinets to the old footprint=20

7. Replace the floor moldings and reinstall the old cabinets.

Been there, done that, loved the results.

P D Q

"Gordon Shumway" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> Our 35 year old kitchen floor (sheet vinyl) needs to be replaced. We
> have decided to replace it with 12" square tiles. With other
> remodeling going on we have decided not to replace the kitchen
> cabinets now. That will be a later project.
>=20
> The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
> under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
> place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
> the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
> and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
> and reinstall the cabinets?
>=20
> Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?
>=20
> Thanks,
> G.S.

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> PDQ wrote:
>=20
> > 3. Peel off all the vinyl. don't want to lay tile over vinyl.
>=20
> Had a house with linoleum over concrete slab in the entry way. Tile =
guy
> did a rough sanding on the linoleum and tiled over it. I was
> skeptical, but never a problem in the ten years I lived in the house.

Tile over concrete is not like tile over wood when it comes to movement.

In the former, if the adhesion is good, no problem.
In the latter, it really does not matter, the tile will eventually =
wander.
Maybe sooner than later.

P D Q

"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> Dave in Houston wrote:
> > "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> > news:[email protected]...
> > Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to
> >=20
> > 1. Pull the base cabinets.
> >=20
> >=20
> > Perhaps easier said than done. If the cabinets are sight-built =
it=20
> > becomes a demo project.
>=20
> Even if they're not site-built, some cabinetmakers use separate =
leveled=20
> bases under the boxes.

If they cannot be moved and replaced without undue effort the =
"cabinetmaker" was not doing the job right.

It is not like the bases have to be structural - all that is needed is a =
screw or two into the studs at the back of the bases to hold them tight =
to the wall and the levelers can be amended if the levelness of the =
floor changes unduly.

P D Q

<[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:15:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> >Thank all of you for your replies.
> >
> >It seems unanimous that to do the job properly I need to remove the
> >base cabinets. That makes sense and that's what I'll do.
> >
> >With that said I may combine the later project (new cabinets) with
> >this project. Will there never be an end to this madness? :-(
> >
> >G.S.
> If you plan to do the cabinets in the next 3-5 years, do them now -
> and I'd think twice about using vinyl tile. How big is the kitchen? If
> one dimension is 12 feet or less (from cabinet base to wall) I'd go
> with ssolid sheet vinyl - and NO seams in the traffic area.
> Did my kitchen16 years ago (man how time flies) with edge glued only,
> full floating solid vinyl over fresh 3/8" underlay. Mine has one
> seam, but i can't find it even today.
>=20
> I've never had luck with tile floors - particularly in kitchens and
> baths.

clare:

According to the following I think the OP did not have vinyl in mind. =
Rather "stone".

>The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
>under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
>place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
>the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
>and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
>and reinstall the cabinets?

P D Q

"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 22:57:36 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>=20
> >On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:15:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>Thank all of you for your replies.
> >>
> >>It seems unanimous that to do the job properly I need to remove the
> >>base cabinets. That makes sense and that's what I'll do.
> >>
> >>With that said I may combine the later project (new cabinets) with
> >>this project. Will there never be an end to this madness? :-(
> >>
> >>G.S.
> > If you plan to do the cabinets in the next 3-5 years, do them now -
> >and I'd think twice about using vinyl tile. How big is the kitchen? =
If
> >one dimension is 12 feet or less (from cabinet base to wall) I'd go
> >with ssolid sheet vinyl - and NO seams in the traffic area.
> >Did my kitchen16 years ago (man how time flies) with edge glued only,
> >full floating solid vinyl over fresh 3/8" underlay. Mine has one
> >seam, but i can't find it even today.
> >
> >I've never had luck with tile floors - particularly in kitchens and
> >baths.
>=20
>=20
> Vinyl is the best floor covering for a kitchen. It cleans up easily,
> wears well, very water resistant, installs easily, comes in endless
> colors and patterns. Seams/tiles can be trouble.

Sometime you should check my oak floor - 20 years and still looks like =
new.
P D Q

"Dave in Houston" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
>=20
> "B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> news:[email protected]...
> > PDQ wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> If they cannot be moved and replaced without undue effort the=20
> >> "cabinetmaker" was not doing the job right.
> >
> > Are you kidding?
>=20
> Exactly. Almost w/o exception, the site-built cabinets I've run =
across=20
> are not individual boxes. Rather, they are frames and side panels =
attached=20
> to 1x6s on the rear wall which end up supporting the rear of the =
counter=20
> top. The kitchen drywall becomes the cabinet back.
> How do you raise those with major disassembly?
> Our answer was usually that we didn't. And, we've laid tile up to =
the=20
> toe-kicks on base cabinets and cannot remember a single time that the =
[new]=20
> dishwasher wouldn't go in. The refrigerator space got tile like the =
rest of=20
> the floor.
>=20
> Dave in Houston=20
>=20
>=20

Catch you both here.

The 1X6 (in my case 1X3) were fixed to the wall by 2 screws. All I had =
to do was back out the screws and lift the base cabinets out of the way. =
After the floor was laid to the walls the cabinets were returned to =
their original location and the screws reinstalled.

Only had to cut out enough of the base of the cabinets for the sink to =
allow the pipes to properly sit in place. This was the most I had to do =
to replace the cabinets. My cabinetmaker did a fine job of future =
consideration when building these cabinets.

P D Q

Sounds to me that what you have just described is a perfect scenario for =
a "French Cleat" and a scribed kick-pad fronting some shims. Of course =
one must build the cabinets with a tad more depth than the back would =
require so that vagarities in the wall may be circumvented.

Given the nature of the populace today anybody who builds kitchen =
cabinetry for the ages is self-delusional.

P D Q

"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> PDQ wrote:
> > My cabinetmaker did a fine job of future consideration when building =
these cabinets.
>=20
> That's not what he was thinking of when he built them that way. While =

> it worked out well for you, most flooring is not run under existing=20
> cabinetry. I installed tile, hardwood, and vinyl professionally for=20
> several years.
>=20
> Nowadays, most mass-produced cabinets, regardless of the size of the=20
> shop that built them, are built like yours. It's done for shipping,=20
> installation, and parts-standardization on the shop floor reasons. =
Many=20
> installers might mount them a tad more elaborately than yours are,=20
> especially if the sub floor isn't that level or well-built.
>=20
> In older, and some new high-end stuff, the newer it is, the higher-end =

> it will be to see this... it's common to see extremely high quality=20
> cabinetry and built-ins that are either built in place right on site, =
or=20
> permanently assembled in place. The builders will go to great lengths =

> to hide fasteners, too.
>=20
> Some "average quality" stuff installed in very well settled (read=20
> "whacked", not-so level floors) antique homes is much easier to =
install=20
> on plywood toe-kick bases that are blocked and shimmed level before =
the=20
> boxes are set. Last summer, I did a small kitchen in a 1740's home =
that=20
> would have been a nightmare without separate bases. The same house =
had=20
> 3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom walls that a previous=20
> owner plastered over!

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:gq3il.3762$%[email protected]...
>=20
> "Gordon Shumway" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> news:[email protected]...
> > Our 35 year old kitchen floor (sheet vinyl) needs to be replaced. =
We
> > have decided to replace it with 12" square tiles. With other
> > remodeling going on we have decided not to replace the kitchen
> > cabinets now. That will be a later project.
> >
> > The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
> > under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
> > place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile =
over
> > the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
> > and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
> > and reinstall the cabinets?
> >
> > Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > G.S.
>=20
> Almost always new construction these days, the cabinets go in before =
the=20
> floors. Putting a new floor in now and replacing the cabinets later =
is not=20
> a big deal. I do suggest that you build the new cabinets taller by =
the=20
> amount of the thickness of the new floor and if you have a dish washer =

> extend the tile floor inside that cavity or build up the floor to the =
new=20
> floor height.
> When I have replaced existing kitchen and bath room cabinets and there =
is a=20
> taller tile floor, I let the toe kick plate hide any gap. The new =
cabinets=20
> simply set in the same spot that the old cabinets did except I build =
them=20
> taller by the height of the new floor.=20
>=20
>=20

Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the =
part of the builder?

At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were =
installed before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, =
I would also have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.

P D Q

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
>=20
> "B A R R Y" wrote
>=20
> > The same house had 3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom =
walls=20
> > that a previous owner plastered over!
>=20
> Probably could stand the sight of all that beautiful wood! LOL
>=20
> I have seen that sort of thing many times as well. It is like my wife =

> screaming every time she sees Nahm painting a nice wood project.
>=20
>=20
>=20

That flower in your garden must be a tree hugger of note. <G>

P D Q

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
>=20
> "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> news:[email protected]...
>=20
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> news:gq3il.3762$%[email protected]...
> Snip
>=20
> >
> >
>=20
> Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the =
part=20
> of the builder?
>=20
> At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were =
installed=20
> before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, I would =
also=20
> have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.
>=20
> P D Q
>=20
>=20
> Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and never =
to be=20
> seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost cutter, one =
that=20
> makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe=20
> moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet =
under=20
> them also?
>=20
> What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you =
will=20
> never see?
>=20
> Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your =
cabinets=20
> before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you can find =
one that=20
> will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.
>=20
> Do you live in the USA?=20
>=20
>=20

Kanukistan.

Yup, I know what you mean. I once had a fellow laying my floor who, =
when told it would be nice if he were to start at the feature (Stepped =
Archway) and lay to the opposite wall, replied "I am a professional, I =
know what I am doing, but out". Kicked his ass off the lot and dot his =
boss to supply a new floor guy to fix the mess. 2 days of new guy =
swearing about the old guy and floor was looking good. Never let it be =
said that pros always know what they are doing.

BTB: I removed all casings, trim, moldings, and base cabinets before the =
floor was laid and replaced them afterwards.

That is why DIY any time the job looks like something I can do is my =
credo.

P D Q

Upscale wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
>> never see?
>
> I don't agree. Once you go that route, you're locked into the exact
> placement of those cabinets. What happens if you want to put in new cabinets
> some time in the future? Unlikely they'd be the same size and shape. You'd
> be trying to hide areas where you didn't install flooring.
>
> And certainly on a new build, it's much easier to install an entire floor
> than to take the time to modify and cut flooring to fit around cabinets
> installed before the flooring. Just doesn't make any sense. Maybe as a
> contractor, get the job done and get out, possibly. For something I'd build
> for my own use, certainly not.
>

Doesn't it depend on the situation? Flooring used to be a major
expense, and it was something that could be resurfaced/refinished.

Now it seems to be something that is changed like lighting fixtures,
whenever a new fad or style comes out, or when the walls are painted.

Seems to me, if someone is putting down linoleum or cardboard
"hardwood," they're not the type of person who's going to care about the
flooring going under the cabinets... or even dishwasher for that matter.

Depends on the customer, doesn't it? We've all had instances where our
trying to convert the customer into someone who respects quality and
craftsmanship the way we do, only comes across, to them, as us trying to
increase the price of the job.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

<[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
On Feb 4, 9:16 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:gq3il.3762$%[email protected]...
> Snip
>
>
>
> Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the =
part
> of the builder?
>
> At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were =
installed
> before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, I would =
also
> have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.
>
> P D Q
>
> Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and never =
to be
> seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost cutter, one that
> makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe
> moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet =
under
> them also?
>
> What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you =
will
> never see?
>
> Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your =
cabinets
> before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you can find one =
that
> will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.
>
> Do you live in the USA?

Back in the mid 1990s I redid the flooring and cabinetry in two
kitchens. Rooms were stripped bare of all cabinets. I ran the
flooring wall to wall. Although in the ceramic tile floor I did use
gray tiles when I needed extras under the cabinets. White in the
visible area. And grout lines were not finished as much under the
cabinets. But the whole floor had the same thickness of tile and
cement backboard. The 25 feet of linear cabinets and the 50 square
feet of tile under the cabinets at $1 per square foot of tile was not
a big deal given the cost of the entire job. $50 extra for tile under
the cabinets. Big deal. It made the installation of the cabinets
more than $50 easier later on. Extra backer board was required too.
Little extra cost too. Also no bid deal. Running from wall to wall
was easier than stopping exactly, exactly at the edge of the
cabinetry. If I was laying tile in one kitchen a week or two a week
the cost would add up more.

Seems like a "PAY ME NOW OR PAY ME LATER" situation. I agree with your =
thoughts. Only way to do this is to explain to the end-user that the =
little extra in time and materials will save time and exasperation later =
on and not force them into a set footprint.

As far a colour differences between what's under the counter and what's =
out in the open - a little time and no one will be able to see the =
difference. Besides one never goes smaller.

P D Q

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f915fd93-4f89-4ec0-87c5-aef90d7b9ad2@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com=20
> On Feb 4, 11:17 am, "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in
>> =
messagenews:[email protected].=
com...
>>=20
>> On Feb 4, 9:16 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> "PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>=20
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>=20
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>=20
>>> news:gq3il.3762$%[email protected]...
>>> Snip
>>=20
>>> Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on
>>> the part of the builder?
>>=20
>>> At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were
>>> installed before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring
>>> laid, I would also have the cabinets removed and re-installed after
>>> the lay.=20
>>=20
>>> P D Q
>>=20
>>> Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and
>>> never to be seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost
>>> cutter, one that makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do
>>> you remove all shoe moldings, base boards, and door sills so that
>>> you can put the carpet under them also?

Actually, I pulled the carpets, put them in the garage under my cars, =
and laid hardwood. Yes, I lifted all the trim (that cheap shit that =
looks like mahogany) and replaced it with oak. I had carpet laid in my =
basement and put the moldings on afterwards.

>>=20
>>> What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that
>>> you will never see?
>>=20

I know, and that is all thatr matters.

>>> Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your
>>> cabinets before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you
>>> can find one that will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.
>>=20
>>> Do you live in the USA?
>>=20
>> Back in the mid 1990s I redid the flooring and cabinetry in two
>> kitchens. Rooms were stripped bare of all cabinets. I ran the
>> flooring wall to wall. Although in the ceramic tile floor I did use
>> gray tiles when I needed extras under the cabinets. White in the
>> visible area. And grout lines were not finished as much under the
>> cabinets. But the whole floor had the same thickness of tile and
>> cement backboard. The 25 feet of linear cabinets and the 50 square
>> feet of tile under the cabinets at $1 per square foot of tile was not
>> a big deal given the cost of the entire job. $50 extra for tile under
>> the cabinets. Big deal. It made the installation of the cabinets
>> more than $50 easier later on. Extra backer board was required too.
>> Little extra cost too. Also no bid deal. Running from wall to wall
>> was easier than stopping exactly, exactly at the edge of the
>> cabinetry. If I was laying tile in one kitchen a week or two a week
>> the cost would add up more.
>>=20
>> Seems like a "PAY ME NOW OR PAY ME LATER" situation. I agree with
>> your thoughts. Only way to do this is to explain to the end-user
>> that the little extra in time and materials will save time and
>> exasperation later on and not force them into a set footprint. =20
>>=20
>> As far a colour differences between what's under the counter and
>> what's out in the open - a little time and no one will be able to
>> see the difference. Besides one never goes smaller. =20
>=20
> In my case it was white ceramic tile in the visible area. And gray
> tile under some of the cabinet. Not just a little color difference.
> Two different colors. I presume the white tile was out of stock when
> I went to get more and the gray was there. I did put the gray tiles
> in the corner under the lazy susan cabinet. Pretty sure the corner
> will always have cabinets over it.
>=20
>=20
Russell, not to get sweaty, just added a few comments to earlier stuff =
to see if OEquotefix really works. Beyond that, with tile, one does =
what one must. I have the same problem in my basement where SWMBO wants =
to pull some of the carpet and install more tile beside the tile that is =
already there. Ever try to match 20 year old last of the run tile?

That story will have to remain for another time.

>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> P D Q- Hide quoted text -
>>=20
>> - Show quoted text -

P D Q

Upscale <[email protected]> wrote:

> with tiling, slate tiling for example. Costs more, is more labour intensive
> to cut and one would not be as prone to replace it on a whim like you might
> do with vinyl.

> What's the consensus there? Do the whole floor after the cabinets are
> removed or just tile up to existing cabinets? The disadvantage to tiling

Personally, I'd remove all the cabinets and put new flooring wall-to-wall.
You know the advantages. Ask a flooring contractor how much cost
difference there will be. They usually price flooring per square foot
installed, but I don't know if they just calculate the room dimensions
to get the square footage or do they deduct the cabinet's footprint?

Easy enough to ask. Then it's just a question of whether you think
the cost difference (if any) is worth the possible later hassels.

It's interesting that in Europe it's fairly common for people to
take all their kitchen cabinets with them when they move. So floors
are finished to the walls, and new tenants/owners arrange their
kitchen as they like when they move in.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

Swingman wrote:
> "Gordon Shumway" wrote
>=20
>> The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
>> under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
>> place,
>=20
> Yes, but it depends ...
>=20
>> along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
>> the existing floor?
>=20
> Depends upon the condition of the subfloor.
>=20
> Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
>> and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
>> and reinstall the cabinets?
>=20
> No, but it depends ...
>=20
>> Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?
>=20
> Not really ... you need an experienced builder/remodeler to evaluate
> _your_ situation and advise you on what best fits _your_ situation.
>=20
> Simply put, no amount of guessing here will get you the best results
> for _your_ situation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I enjoyed all your waffling up front.

I couldn't agree more with you on your closing statement.

P D Q

"Gordon Shumway" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Our 35 year old kitchen floor (sheet vinyl) needs to be replaced. We
> have decided to replace it with 12" square tiles. With other
> remodeling going on we have decided not to replace the kitchen
> cabinets now. That will be a later project.
>
> The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
> under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
> place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
> the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
> and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
> and reinstall the cabinets?
>
> Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?
>
> Thanks,
> G.S.

Almost always new construction these days, the cabinets go in before the
floors. Putting a new floor in now and replacing the cabinets later is not
a big deal. I do suggest that you build the new cabinets taller by the
amount of the thickness of the new floor and if you have a dish washer
extend the tile floor inside that cavity or build up the floor to the new
floor height.
When I have replaced existing kitchen and bath room cabinets and there is a
taller tile floor, I let the toe kick plate hide any gap. The new cabinets
simply set in the same spot that the old cabinets did except I build them
taller by the height of the new floor.

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:15:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Thank all of you for your replies.
>
>It seems unanimous that to do the job properly I need to remove the
>base cabinets. That makes sense and that's what I'll do.
>
>With that said I may combine the later project (new cabinets) with
>this project. Will there never be an end to this madness? :-(
>
>G.S.
If you plan to do the cabinets in the next 3-5 years, do them now -
and I'd think twice about using vinyl tile. How big is the kitchen? If
one dimension is 12 feet or less (from cabinet base to wall) I'd go
with ssolid sheet vinyl - and NO seams in the traffic area.
Did my kitchen16 years ago (man how time flies) with edge glued only,
full floating solid vinyl over fresh 3/8" underlay. Mine has one
seam, but i can't find it even today.

I've never had luck with tile floors - particularly in kitchens and
baths.

"PDQ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to

1. Pull the base cabinets.


Perhaps easier said than done. If the cabinets are sight-built it
becomes a demo project.

Dave in Houston

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 22:57:36 -0500, [email protected] wrote:

>On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:15:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Thank all of you for your replies.
>>
>>It seems unanimous that to do the job properly I need to remove the
>>base cabinets. That makes sense and that's what I'll do.
>>
>>With that said I may combine the later project (new cabinets) with
>>this project. Will there never be an end to this madness? :-(
>>
>>G.S.
> If you plan to do the cabinets in the next 3-5 years, do them now -
>and I'd think twice about using vinyl tile. How big is the kitchen? If
>one dimension is 12 feet or less (from cabinet base to wall) I'd go
>with ssolid sheet vinyl - and NO seams in the traffic area.
>Did my kitchen16 years ago (man how time flies) with edge glued only,
>full floating solid vinyl over fresh 3/8" underlay. Mine has one
>seam, but i can't find it even today.
>
>I've never had luck with tile floors - particularly in kitchens and
>baths.


Vinyl is the best floor covering for a kitchen. It cleans up easily,
wears well, very water resistant, installs easily, comes in endless
colors and patterns. Seams/tiles can be trouble.

Upscale wrote:
>
> I don't agree. Once you go that route, you're locked into the exact
> placement of those cabinets. What happens if you want to put in new cabinets
> some time in the future? Unlikely they'd be the same size and shape. You'd
> be trying to hide areas where you didn't install flooring.

I've never seen a cabinet replacement job that didn't include a new
floor, with the exception of antique wood floors which were going to be
refinished. That's like buying new cabinets and keeping the old counter
tops.

Most folks remodel _kitchens_, not cabinets.

> And certainly on a new build, it's much easier to install an entire floor
> than to take the time to modify and cut flooring to fit around cabinets
> installed before the flooring.

Maybe, maybe not... It depends on the layout, materials, etc...

A large vinyl floor would require a long, straight seam that might end
up in an inopportune place. Fitted around cabinetry, the seams are much
easier to hide.

Leon wrote:
> "Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Upscale wrote:
>
>> The major problem with re-flooring a kitchen with a thick(er) material
>> around existing cabinets is the flipping dishwasher. DAMHIKT
>
>
>
> This is something to consider however I have redone kitchens and have seen
> kitchens with added tile to the existing cabinets. 90% of the time the
> dishwasher comes out with out problems. You typically accomplish this by
> screwing in the front adjustment feet all the way and pulling it out. Once
> the front is out the back comes out pretty easily. Tall tiles or thick wood
> flooring may make this a bit harder but new home construction basically goes
> with the cabinets, then floor/counter top, then the appliances. Typically
> the appliances go in last so that they don't mysteriously disappear.
>
>
I agree. The situation I had was moving into a house that had the
kitchen floor redone with tile. The dishwasher needed to be replaced
when the issue came up. Even with the front legs screwed all the way
up, it was necessary to loosen the screws from under the cabinet fronts
and pry the counter top loose. This wasn't easy as the counter tops had
also been set in a silicone glue in addition to the screws. The
alternative would have been removing the tiles directly in front of the
dishwasher, but they were a 10" variety that I could find no
replacements for and I knew I would break them in removal. It all
worked out in the end, but my vocabulary was somewhat increased.