I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim
involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with
watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some
anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd
really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client
has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have
had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in
my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain.
I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base
stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if
possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
I've never done WB on a large scale but have done lots of RO furniture
pieces with WB stains. I've used the General Finishes dark colors which
is very thick. What I've done to avoid the white spots problem is to
grind the stain in witha stiff brush so it esentially acts like a
glaze, getting down in the pores. I couldn't imagine doing this on a
whole house scale though.
What about tinting a sprayed top coat and not staining at all?
BW
"bridger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim
> involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with
> watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some
> anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd
> really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client
> has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have
> had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in
> my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain.
> I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base
> stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if
> possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
Heard those stories too. You've whipped up a few examples already, I'm
sure. Are the stories true?
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >[email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >thickened water based dye
> >> stains will just about fit the bill...
>
>
> On Tue, 24 May 2005 15:37:37 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Thickened with what and how does thickening get the dye into the pores
> >better?
> >
>
> thickened with acrylic, presumably. the higher viscosity keeps surface
> tension from bridging the pore, I assume.
>
Two things, adhesion and cohesion. Higher viscosity equals higher
cohesion - surface tension.
At any rate, following the best advice ever given on the rec, you're
experimenting on scrap rather than your project, right?
Make sure you experiment on quarter _and_ face grain. What looks good on
one, might suck on the other.
On 25 May 2005 10:52:08 -0700, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I've never done WB on a large scale but have done lots of RO furniture
>pieces with WB stains. I've used the General Finishes dark colors which
>is very thick. What I've done to avoid the white spots problem is to
>grind the stain in witha stiff brush so it esentially acts like a
>glaze, getting down in the pores. I couldn't imagine doing this on a
>whole house scale though.
>
>What about tinting a sprayed top coat and not staining at all?
>
>BW
spraying is not an option on this project.
do you have a link for the general products?
Results with WB dyes on oak depend mostly on how dark of finish you are
shooting for. the darker the dye stain, the more prominent the unfilled
pores will be. I've tried wetting agents, spraying, and find that
there's always a portion of unfilled pores that remain light. for
critical work, I've had to go over the dye with either a glaze or a
(gasp!) pigmented solvent based stain. The fun part is finding a
combination that doesn't end up too dark or that changes the tone.
BTW, spraying dry coats, at least for me, results in the least amount of
undyed pores, but only by a small margin. I've still had to either add
a solvent based stain, glaze, or tone the top coat to hide those light
pores.
I no longer use Minwhacks products so I've no comment on Rumpty's
assertion that he's gotten good results using their stuff.
Dave
bridger wrote:
> I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim
> involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with
> watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some
> anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd
> really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client
> has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have
> had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in
> my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain.
> I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base
> stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if
> possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
I wasn't saying that you didn't get good results! I just can't comment
on the particular Minwhacks products you said you used! :) Sorry I
didn't make it clear that while I no longer used their pigment based
stains, I've zero knowledge of the efficacy of their other products, so
that's why I had "no comment".
Dave
Rumpty wrote:
>>I no longer use Minwhacks products so I've no comment on Rumpty's
>
> assertion that he's gotten good results using their stuff.
>
> Dave,
>
> I'm a Hydrocote water based stain user in a commercial shop. I have used
> Minwax H20 stuff in the field, and IMHO it is acceptable.
>
> --
>
> Rumpty
>
> Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>
> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Results with WB dyes on oak depend mostly on how dark of finish you are
>>shooting for. the darker the dye stain, the more prominent the unfilled
>>pores will be. I've tried wetting agents, spraying, and find that
>>there's always a portion of unfilled pores that remain light. for
>>critical work, I've had to go over the dye with either a glaze or a
>>(gasp!) pigmented solvent based stain. The fun part is finding a
>>combination that doesn't end up too dark or that changes the tone.
>>
>>BTW, spraying dry coats, at least for me, results in the least amount of
>>undyed pores, but only by a small margin. I've still had to either add
>>a solvent based stain, glaze, or tone the top coat to hide those light
>>pores.
>>
>>
>>I no longer use Minwhacks products so I've no comment on Rumpty's
>>assertion that he's gotten good results using their stuff.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>bridger wrote:
>>
>>>I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim
>>>involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with
>>>watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some
>>>anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd
>>>really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client
>>>has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have
>>>had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in
>>>my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain.
>>>I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base
>>>stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if
>>>possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
>
>
>
>I no longer use Minwhacks products so I've no comment on Rumpty's
assertion that he's gotten good results using their stuff.
Dave,
I'm a Hydrocote water based stain user in a commercial shop. I have used
Minwax H20 stuff in the field, and IMHO it is acceptable.
--
Rumpty
Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Results with WB dyes on oak depend mostly on how dark of finish you are
> shooting for. the darker the dye stain, the more prominent the unfilled
> pores will be. I've tried wetting agents, spraying, and find that
> there's always a portion of unfilled pores that remain light. for
> critical work, I've had to go over the dye with either a glaze or a
> (gasp!) pigmented solvent based stain. The fun part is finding a
> combination that doesn't end up too dark or that changes the tone.
>
> BTW, spraying dry coats, at least for me, results in the least amount of
> undyed pores, but only by a small margin. I've still had to either add
> a solvent based stain, glaze, or tone the top coat to hide those light
> pores.
>
>
> I no longer use Minwhacks products so I've no comment on Rumpty's
> assertion that he's gotten good results using their stuff.
>
> Dave
>
> bridger wrote:
> > I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim
> > involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with
> > watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some
> > anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd
> > really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client
> > has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have
> > had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in
> > my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain.
> > I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base
> > stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if
> > possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
bridger <[email protected]> wrote in news:bridger-
[email protected]:
> I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim
> involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with
> watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some
> anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd
> really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client
> has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have
> had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in
> my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain.
> I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base
> stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if
> possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
The first route I'd try would be a water-based dye, on scrap, of course.
TransFast, or something similar.
Patriarch
On Mon, 23 May 2005 23:23:38 -0700, bridger <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim
>involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with
>watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some
>anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd
>really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client
>has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have
>had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in
>my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain.
>I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base
>stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if
>possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I have used General Finishes
water based stains (see
http://www.generalfinishes.com/finishes/water-base-finishes/waterbase%20finishes3.htm#EF%20Wood%20Stains)
on a sanded white oak floor, among other things, in my old house. I
also did the white pine beadboard, on the walls, with the same stain.
Blotchiness was an issue on the white pine, and I was told to pre-coat
with their clear stain. With this system, you put the final stain on
while the pre-coat is still wet. The General water based stuff worked
better than ANY minwhacks stuff I have ever had the displeasure of
using. Final color was deep and clear; not muddy at all.
Irronically, both the floors were finished with an oil-based wipe-on
poly, also from General Finishes. This schedule was suggested by the
guy at the local Rockler, and it worked beautifully. If, by chance,
you have a local Rockler, stop by and ask if they can show some of the
General products. Take a scrap of what you would like to finish too.
At my local store, the guy pulled a couple of cans from the shelf,
demonstrated on some handy scrap, and let me have a go. Much better
than flying blind.
I'm sure other vendors sell the same stuff too.
I have also used the Homestead dyes, with good luck, but think the
General stains are a better match for your project. The Transtint dyes
might be handy for making a final minor color correction if you are
trying to match an existing job done with another finishing system.
DLGlos
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>thickened water based dye
>> stains will just about fit the bill...
On Tue, 24 May 2005 15:37:37 -0700, David <[email protected]> wrote:
>Thickened with what and how does thickening get the dye into the pores
>better?
>
thickened with acrylic, presumably. the higher viscosity keeps surface
tension from bridging the pore, I assume.
On Wed, 25 May 2005 22:03:22 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>On 25 May 2005 10:52:08 -0700, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>I've never done WB on a large scale but have done lots of RO furniture
>>pieces with WB stains. I've used the General Finishes dark colors which
>>is very thick. What I've done to avoid the white spots problem is to
>>grind the stain in witha stiff brush so it esentially acts like a
>>glaze, getting down in the pores. I couldn't imagine doing this on a
>>whole house scale though.
>>
>>What about tinting a sprayed top coat and not staining at all?
>>
>>BW
>
>
>spraying is not an option on this project.
>
>do you have a link for the general products?
www.generalfinishes.com
BTW, check out my earlier post where I report much happiness with the
General Finishes EF stains. If you have a Rockler nearby, you could
probably take a scrap in the store and experiement. They were quite
helpful in this regard at my local store.
DLGlos
But then you can fall victim to scratches-look-like-hell syndrome.
Better by most accounts to get MOST of the color IN the wood, then add a
bit more color to the top coats to blend in the light pores.
Dave
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I've never done WB on a large scale but have done lots of RO furniture
> pieces with WB stains. I've used the General Finishes dark colors which
> is very thick. What I've done to avoid the white spots problem is to
> grind the stain in witha stiff brush so it esentially acts like a
> glaze, getting down in the pores. I couldn't imagine doing this on a
> whole house scale though.
>
> What about tinting a sprayed top coat and not staining at all?
>
> BW
>
Thickened with what and how does thickening get the dye into the pores
better?
[email protected] wrote:
>
>
thickened water based dye
> stains will just about fit the bill...
Minwax's water based works well. Wipe on and wipe off, stain, seal (use a
coat of top coat), sand with 330 and top coat.
--
Rumpty
Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"bridger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim
> involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with
> watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some
> anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd
> really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client
> has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have
> had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in
> my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain.
> I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base
> stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if
> possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
On Tue, 24 May 2005 09:21:49 -0500, Patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:
>bridger <[email protected]> wrote in news:bridger-
>[email protected]:
>
>> I have a project where the finish schedule for the interior trim
>> involves staining red oak to match some existing work finished with
>> watco medium walnut and spar varnish. the new work includes some
>> anderson windows and other various trim in red oak and sugar pine. I'd
>> really like to avoid filling and sanding these in place, and the client
>> has requested that all waterbase products be used from here out. I have
>> had experience with waterborne acrylic poly products- I'm confident in
>> my ability to handle the top coats. what I'm nervous about is the stain.
>> I've heard horror stories about open pores of red oak and water base
>> stains. I'd like to find a product designed for this application if
>> possible. any words of wisdom from y'all would make my life easier....
>
>The first route I'd try would be a water-based dye, on scrap, of course.
>TransFast, or something similar.
>
>Patriarch
thanks. I posted also on homestead and have gotten some good replies
there. I'm tending to think that their thickened water based dye
stains will just about fit the bill...