I need someone to make this MDF mold for $100.

Uhh...fast and cheap? You act like that isn't an option. Apparently
my post got interpreted as: "Need High Tolerence Rocket Nozzle milled
from Kryptonite for $100." eMachineShop will mill it for $180 out of
T6 (shipped), and $140 out of mdf. And yeah...if you had a cnc in your
shop and wanted to kick something out for some extra cash so be it. If
you don't - why waste the time posting? If all of your guys' time is
worth so much why are you even replying to the post? Get over it. I
even suggested the exact model router bit - and would buy it for you to
keep, and pay in advance. And for the price of 1/10th of your entire
monthly cnc lease payment...can you really complain? If you want me to
bang it out in solidworks I guess I could...but is it really worthy?
I'm molding a prototype out of .015 hips...And at 1/2" the walls would
hold up fine. And yes...I have to drill the ports in the cativies
myself...ok thanks anyway sorry for disturbing your newsgroup.

Wow... this has gotten way out of hand. Honestly, I'm sorry. It is a
prototype...sorry. Forget the whole post. I can't believe you guys
think it is that much work to make a jig and plug in a router. Perhaps
I will just go to home depot and spend $97 on tools after all. Thank
you for your help.

The problem there is with webbing.

Andy, I have since found another solution...but the a** r*ping I got
here yesterday has been bugging me all day...so I returned to get some
closure only to find 34(!!!!!) more posts about me being an idiot.
Truth is, the sharp corners are actually bad. I was going to fill them
in with putty and sand them down. Which brings me to my next point: If
the mdf didn't fly as a mold I was going to use it as a pattern to cast
plaster. The point of the bit was to offer the angle required to allow
the mold to pull from the plastic. I couldn't use eMachineShop because
the turnaround was 30 (business) days and I needed something sooner. I
thought "Well maybe I will go try a woodworking newsgroup and see if
any hobbiests might be interested. A hundred bucks can be worth a lot
more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a
hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one
day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No? I sincerely HAD NO
IDEA that this group was populated by professional pattern makers,
engineers, and woodworkers. I am so sincerely sorry for causing so
much strife in this newsgroup. I guess I should have known better and
I'm sorry I didn't. I admire your craft to the fullest. I didn't know
I would insult you; and I *certainly* didn't mean to. I would also
like to thank Mike Marlow for being reasonable.

Andrew P states:
>> Andrew P Mar 17, 10:50 pm show options

Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
From: "Andrew P" <[email protected]> - Find messages by this author
Date: 17 Mar 2005 22:50:25 -0800
Local: Thurs, Mar 17 2005 10:50 pm
Subject: Re: I need someone to make this MDF mold for $100.
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

Andy, I have since found another solution...but the a** r*ping I got
here yesterday has been bugging me all day...so I returned to get some
closure only to find 34(!!!!!) more posts about me being an idiot.
Truth is, the sharp corners are actually bad. I was going to fill them

in with putty and sand them down. Which brings me to my next point: If

the mdf didn't fly as a mold I was going to use it as a pattern to cast

plaster. The point of the bit was to offer the angle required to allow

the mold to pull from the plastic. I couldn't use eMachineShop because

the turnaround was 30 (business) days and I needed something sooner. I

thought "Well maybe I will go try a woodworking newsgroup and see if
any hobbiests might be interested. A hundred bucks can be worth a lot
more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a
hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one
day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No? I sincerely HAD NO
IDEA that this group was populated by professional pattern makers,
engineers, and woodworkers. I am so sincerely sorry for causing so
much strife in this newsgroup. I guess I should have known better and
I'm sorry I didn't. I admire your craft to the fullest. I didn't know

I would insult you; and I *certainly* didn't mean to. I would also
like to thank Mike Marlow for being reasonable.<<

There are a lot of pros on this group. Why shouldn't there be? The
major point seems to be, though, that as things progress you have
changed your expressed requirements considerably. With the MDF, you'd
have left someone unable to make the product you require, justifying
withholding payment, because you didn't explain how you actually wanted
it done, nor did you present options.

Basically, no one on here is a mind reader. Explain what you want. Be
prepared to pay a reasonable price for it. A hundred bucks to cover
materials and two days' work to keep my wife from bugging me about
money for tools isn't my idea of a fair trade, especially when the
original specs are so screwed up I'd end up with just the experience
for my work.

> Sadly, there's never been /any/ afternoon delight in my shop. )-:

Well, no WONDER you got the job done so fast! :-)

In article <[email protected]>,
Andrew P <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you are interested in doing this and think it is worth $100, please
> email me through this post or "reply to author." I need someone to
> send this to me by Friday this week. I will pay for shipping.

2 of 3 rule...

Good

Fast

Cheap

Pick 2.

What you get, if you get it, won't be good... You've picked your 2.

--
"The thing about saying the wrong words is that A, I don't notice it, and B,
sometimes orange water gibbon bucket and plastic." -- Mr. Burrows

In article <[email protected]>, "Andrew P" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Wow... this has gotten way out of hand. Honestly, I'm sorry. It is a
>prototype...sorry. Forget the whole post. I can't believe you guys
>think it is that much work to make a jig and plug in a router. Perhaps
>I will just go to home depot and spend $97 on tools after all. Thank
>you for your help.
>
Do that.

Come back after you've finished, and tell us if it was as easy as you
expected.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

It was somewhere outside Barstow when WillR
<[email protected]> wrote:

>IMHO - each job gets assigned overhead. That's always the way it was=20
>looked at by the manufacturing shops (custom shops, programming shops=20
>etc.) I worked in/dealt with....

IMHE, only the ones being taken over by fuckwit MBAs who'd spend $100
to track a single screw.

This works for Ford. A million screws is big money. But on the scale
of Ford you don't need to have overheads. Your volume is large and
predictable, so you can track plant utilisation accurately and thus
assign even things like rent and wear on the carpets. Overheads turn
into per-item costs.

In a jobbing shop though, you can't do this. A smallwaterjet shop
with one expensive machine finds it hard to do, because they can't
predict utilisation perfectly. For a typical woodworking shop, with
two guys and half-a-dozen machines, it's impossible. Will you be using
the saw or the moulder tomorrow ? Which project column should I book
the sharpening charges to ?

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I have seen a lot of people in this group go out of their way to help
> others but when you trivialize their effort by putting a monetary value
> on that effort, without having any idea what that value is, you can get
> an adverse reaction if that number doesn't compute with any of us.

Slowwwww down Rob. Yer gonna bust a blood vessel and then yer gonna get
blood on that piece of cherry which will put you in disfavor with the wood
gods and everyone here for staining cherry, and to top it all off, yer gonna
have to clean up the mess with acetone! Really - I'd cut him a little slack
here. Looks like the production rate for this stuff is around $140 from his
posted research. I don't think he's so far out of line by reaching out to
what is a hobby newsgroup and asking if anyone is interested in doing this
for $100 plus the benefit of the bit. That really puts the pay up around
the rates the shops had quoted him. Not so bad for a hobby type with the
interest in taking in on. I know that it does not have the same appeal to
the guys here who do run production shops, but my point is that he brought
it to what is essentially a hobby group and made a reasonable offer.

>
> So, instead of laying a trip on anybody, go and buy what you need, learn
> the processes involved (keep track of your hours, including that trip to
> the Borg for that $97.00 router) get the MDF, router bit, make a jig,
> guidebushings, make a few mistakes, clean up after yourself and get back
> to us when you're all done.

That's really why most people pay someone else to do the work. They don't
want to or can't invest in the time to do that. It's really not that wrong
of this fellow to solicit a $140 professionally quoted job from a hobby
group to be done for ~$120. Though, I'd have to wonder why bother for what
appears to be only a $20 savings? But, that'd be a different conversation.
I have to admit that I think the responses by and large were a bit less than
accomodating. I understand why a production shop would not want to fart
around with something like this and can't blame them one bit for considering
something like this to be a bigger pain than it's worth, but the group
responses seemed to relay that with a vigor. Unless I misunderstood
something, at least two production shops quoted pricing that made his offer
to this group seem to be not so out of line. Again - considering that the
initial appeal was made to what is essentially a hobby group.

When I read the initial post I wasn't the least bit interested. I still
have to get this thing out of my garage that is taking up sawdust space (the
never ending project car) and I can't even think about any woodworking until
that's done. Even then, I wouldn't be interested in this type of thing.
But... I did see where there could be some guys with a router who might just
be interested in taking on a small project like this in the name of their
first commissioned project. We see plenty of that kind of stuff here. Odd
ball projects that a fellow does for a neighbor, or a church, or whatever.
For that guy, a hundred bucks plus a router bit that he may never use again
could very conceivably be an attractive offer in exchange for a few hours of
his time and the sense of accomplishment he gets out of being contracted to
do a job. Admitedly, that is the only sort of guy that I anticipated would
be interested in this, but then again if the OP found just one guy like that
here, he was golden and so was the fellow who took the work.

>
> Oh...and how I spend my time on the computer doesn't concern you..it is
> part of my anger management therapy.
>

Ahem... ummmm... Rob... yer getting confused again. It's the binary groups
that are supposed to be part of the anger management therapy...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> I have a 3-axis CNC router in my shop and after I finished
> today's work I fired up DesignCAD and spent just under ten
> minutes drawing a top view with tool paths. Then I spent another
> ten minutes hand-coding a part program with a two subroutines
> (one for cuts with a 1/2" bit to hog out the bulk of each cavity,
> and one to do the finish wall cut) to cut a single cavity. The
> main portion of the program calls those subroutines 12 times each
> to cut all the pockets. The final step was a sequence of four
> cuts to cut the tapered outer edge.
>

If I followed what you posted in total Morris, you look like you had
somewhere around 30-45 minutes total time from coding to finished product.
Make it an even hour for a cigarette break or a little afternoon delight
thrown in at some point during the project. Curious - what do you need to
get per hour for that CNC machine?
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> There are a lot of pros on this group. Why shouldn't there be? The
> major point seems to be, though, that as things progress you have
> changed your expressed requirements considerably. With the MDF, you'd
> have left someone unable to make the product you require, justifying
> withholding payment, because you didn't explain how you actually wanted
> it done, nor did you present options.

To be fair Charlie - isn't that the way it should go? A consumer knows what
he ultimately needs, does some due diligence in attempting to get part of
the way there and to be as demonstrative as he knows how to be (providing
drawings that to him are detailed and explanatory), and then comes forward
and submits his need, his due diligence effort and a proposed fee that he is
willing to pay based on market research. I really didn't see anything in
his posts that was demanding, was insistent, or otherwise less than
workable. In fact, I've seen quite the opposite. He's already acknowledged
some of the suggestions that have come up here - a good example being the
suggestion of inverting the mold. Isn't that what dialog is all about? I
know this - when I go to someone, prepared as best as I can possibly be, I
find that it is almost unavoidable that there is some dialog between that
person and myself with respect to alternative methods, etc. Things that I
just didn't think of, for any number of reasons. That's just the way it
should go. In this thread, that whole dynamic has been turned into some
sort of reason to dump on this guy. Shame.

>
> Basically, no one on here is a mind reader. Explain what you want. Be
> prepared to pay a reasonable price for it. A hundred bucks to cover
> materials and two days' work to keep my wife from bugging me about
> money for tools isn't my idea of a fair trade, especially when the
> original specs are so screwed up I'd end up with just the experience
> for my work.
>

It may well be that the two prices he mentioned in another post are the
absolute best prices he's going to be able to get, but at least from the
perspective of the researched prices, he did offer a reasonable price.
Perhaps not to all here, but again, this is primarily a hobbyist group and
to a lot of hobbyists, that could very conceivably be a very fair price.
Can't tear the guy up for asking.

At least one regular here took up the effort and took the design to product
in what I believe was roughly an hour's time. That's $100/hour. I'd wager
no one here knocks down that kind of money, even the pros. Double the
effort - it's still $50/hour. Still probably well within the expectations
of most shops and certainly for any amateur that's interested in that kind
of work. Any more time than that and some will probably drop off due to the
income/effort ratio, but again - in a hobbyist group, it still did not seem
like an unreasonable expectation on the surface, that there would be people
interested in the job.

I'd be interested in how well Morris' product fit the design specs provided.
That's really the ultimate qualifier here. I'm not interested in whether it
lead to a re-design, just in whether it met the spec. If it did, then
Morris proved what everyone else just talked about, and he proved it to be
different than what everyone else just talked about. If the design proved
to be flawed, I'd also be interested in whether the OP was standing by with
more funding to re-run a different design - in other words, was willing to
pay for each product, regardless of whether it was what he was *really*
after.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> It's easy to forget that that clarification time costs money. Hobbyist
> or professional...

> Rarely does a person who wants something made want to pay for
> clarification (IMO). That conclusion was reached over a lot of years.


> So - I am curious Andy: Would you (try to) charge for the extra time
> spent in clarifying on such a small job? Or would you "eat it"?

> Remember the context of a small job. I have bid many large jobs. Yes I
> know they can be worth some risk.



Hey Will - can I chime in? If so, then IMHO, that clarification time is
part of overhead. I personally feel that it's reasonable, especially for
custom work.

BTW - if the answer to my question was "no", then kindly disregard the above
statements.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike:

> Please indulge me as well.

But, of course...

> Neutral tone in my questions and comments I hope... If not make them
> neutral in your mind as best you can..

Easy to do Will. I've watched you give this your best shot at neutrality
over the past day. Makes it easy to read in that context.


< snippage of a bunch of Will and Mike agreeing to disagree on some things,
being not so far apart on some things, and otherwise well presented opinions
that don't need to be objected to...>


>> If it did, then
>> Morris proved what everyone else just talked about, and he proved it to
be
>> different than what everyone else just talked about.

> Interesting conclusion. Maybe we should have a long chat in a bar or
> coffee house one day. After Morris reports -- if he is allowed to...

Now that's something I can certainly step up to. Don't drink, but they do
serve cokes in bars and I drink barrels of coffee a day, so I'm good with
either idea...

>> If the design proved
>> to be flawed, I'd also be interested in whether the OP was standing by
with
>> more funding to re-run a different design - in other words, was willing
to
>> pay for each product, regardless of whether it was what he was *really*
>> after.
>>

> That is the ultimate question I agree. Total agreement here -- are both
>parties willing stand behind the project and make it workable at a
>_mutually_ acceptable cost.

And I'll admit, that I read into the tone that I perceived in the OP's post
that he would. That's a big assumption and one that would need to be
determined up front, but I didn't get the first impression that he was
looking for some F*ck you deal out of the relationship.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


> Suspect that you are hinting it should be absorbed in "the general cost
> of doing business" -- but not sure. I was disabused of that notion long
> ago: a. By cost accountants; b. By losing money on small jobs.

Suspision confirmed - but only because the consultative effort was small.


> I have learned quite a bit about how people do business in WW from this
>discussion. Not really sure where I stand yet. But I am leaning towards
> the conservative costing approach I learned in the past -- so yes I
> think (guess) you made some conclusions -- and were right if so.

I lean toward what you are referring to as the conservative approach when I
contract to to things as well. No matter whether it's painting a car,
building something, repairing something, etc. One only has to operate in an
environment where consumables prevail, for a short time to develop a genuine
understanding of overhead. Having said that, there is the other side of me
that represents my value add, which is my expertise or my experience or even
my sense of "another way". It's that side of me that is free to say "have
you considered this instead?". That value add is, for me, overhead in that
it's not priced out in the project. It is something I expect to do and it's
something I believe customers can expect of me. It's something that I would
not think to charge for. It's a small and simple up front engagement that
hopes to ensure that the project will succeed and both parties will be
satisfied in just one iteration of the job.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Andy Dingley wrote:
>> It was somewhere outside Barstow when WillR
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So - I am curious Andy: Would you (try to) charge for the extra time
>>>spent in clarifying on such a small job? Or would you "eat it"?
>>
>>
>> Oh, I'd eat it - quite definitely. You have to factor that into your
>> overheads for sure, so it all adds to the cost. However trying to
>> _track_ the amount of this time would easily add up to even more
>> effort.
>

> Do you add a portion of the overhead to each job as a matter of course?

> I think that eating it would be a losing proposition -- and clearly
> that's why I commented.

This is where the distinction between hobbyist and production shop become
operative. For a large percentage of hobbyists, $100 for an hour or two of
work that is not so different from what they do every night for free, is a
pretty good deal. For a production shop, it's a whole different issue. The
hobbyist will often feel he learned something from the exercise, or feel
good about having done a paying job, or maybe expand his/her skills by
trying something they've never done before. But - the important point is,
the hobbyist is by definition, not in it for profit. He's in it for the fun
of it. Any pay he receives is gravy to him. Losing proposition? Yeah,
maybe, by a measured standard, but if hobbyists were to measure their
profitability, we'd all have to quit our hobby.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Mike:
>
>
>>Please indulge me as well.
>
>
> But, of course...
>
>
>>Neutral tone in my questions and comments I hope... If not make them
>>neutral in your mind as best you can..
>


>
> Easy to do Will. I've watched you give this your best shot at neutrality
> over the past day. Makes it easy to read in that context.

Ah well.. everybody gets a shot now and then. LOL

Good one.


No - I was trying to acknowledge your efforts at neutral tone and state that
I had indeed observed those efforts, so it would be easy for me to embrace
that and put forward a neutral tone as well. I was trying to be
complimentary. Sorry if it did not come across that way.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Just before 5 I finally had time to slap a piece of MDF in the
> 'Bot and try my little part program. The mold took 10:10
> (min:sec) to cut and has two errors:
>

Thanks for posting the follow-up Morris. I was quite interested in how
you'd make out.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Larry Jaques" snip
> You've got balls, Andrew. It takes many hours to produce anything
> -close- to a finished mold, and to ask for it IN 3 DAYS and for only
> $100 is a real insult to any self-respecting mold or patternmaker or
> decent woodworker.

Anyone with a CNC machine can make that in a snap.
Morris?

Dave



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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WillR wrote:
snip
> Any chance you could publish the plans?

Are they FREE plans? %-)
Dave in Fairfax
--
Dave Leader
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/
PATINA
http://www.Patinatools.org/

Oh for Christmas sake, give it a rest!! All of you have made your point
(several times!).

> > A hundred bucks can be worth a lot
> > more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a
> > hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one
> > day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No?
>
> No.
> My personal structure does not fit that bill, but you had no way of
> knowing. You jumped to a conclusion. So did I. I thought "here we go
> again, another schmuck looking for a freebie/cheepie/to take advantage.."
> Now that I have read more of who you are, it has become evident that I
> was wrong to draw that conclusion and for that I apologize.
>
> Some got caught up in the 'pile-on'. Shit happens. It has happened to
> me... as the recipient..so you dust yourself off, wash your hands in
> acetone and go on.
> I don't think any of it was 'mean' as such...just out of place.
> Hindsight has 20-20 vision, eh?

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>Suspect that you are hinting it should be absorbed in "the general cost=

>>of doing business" -- but not sure. I was disabused of that notion long=

>>ago: a. By cost accountants; b. By losing money on small jobs.
>=20
>=20
> Suspision confirmed - but only because the consultative effort was smal=
l.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>I have learned quite a bit about how people do business in WW from this=

>>discussion. Not really sure where I stand yet. But I am leaning towards=

>>the conservative costing approach I learned in the past -- so yes I
>>think (guess) you made some conclusions -- and were right if so.
>=20
>=20
> I lean toward what you are referring to as the conservative approach wh=
en I
> contract to to things as well. No matter whether it's painting a car,
> building something, repairing something, etc. One only has to operate =
in an
> environment where consumables prevail, for a short time to develop a ge=
nuine
> understanding of overhead. Having said that, there is the other side o=
f me
> that represents my value add, which is my expertise or my experience or=
even
> my sense of "another way". It's that side of me that is free to say "h=
ave
> you considered this instead?". That value add is, for me, overhead in =
that
> it's not priced out in the project. It is something I expect to do and=
it's
> something I believe customers can expect of me. It's something that I =
would
> not think to charge for. It's a small and simple up front engagement t=
hat
> hopes to ensure that the project will succeed and both parties will be
> satisfied in just one iteration of the job.
>=20
>=20


Fair enough. We're not that far apart I guess.

Good enough answer for me.



--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:36:05 -0500, the inscrutable Robatoy
<[email protected]> spake:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> WillR <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Guess I was rude -- wasn't I?
>
>Nu-uh. not rude at all..... I tossed the first 3 or 4 replies as well.
>Sometimes I will write what I really feel....then toss it, just to get
>rid of my frustration. There are posts where my initial knee-jerk
>reaction is similar to Dan Ackroyd's "Jane you ignorant slut!"
>or John Byner's backhander on Bizarre.

ROTFLMAO! Ditto here. I cleaned up the language a couple of times
before posting that.


>You are right, though.. sometimes it will take a c-note in time spent,
>just to figure out if my customer and I are even on the same page.

Rightio!


>Another observation I have made over the years, it's the 'favour' jobs
>that bite you in the ass. The smaller the margin, the better the odds
>that the customer will turn out to be Freddy Kruger's sister.

Ayup. The smaller the job, the more anal the client and the more time
you spend.


>That mold, milled out of aluminum and polished... 1000
>bucks...easy...maybe 1500. That thing needs to be drilled for vacuum
>access in strategic places as well...oops...just spent 100 bucks
>thinking.

Prolly $300 from emachineshop.com or $800 from a US shop, both
definitely CNC and both surely metal mold material, prolly alum.


-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com

Mike Marlow wrote:

> If I followed what you posted in total Morris, you look like
> you had somewhere around 30-45 minutes total time from coding
> to finished product. Make it an even hour for a cigarette
> break or a little afternoon delight thrown in at some point
> during the project. Curious - what do you need to get per
> hour for that CNC machine?

Mike...

I dunno. I've never billed for machine time. I quote either for a
whole job or by the part - and most of the time I ask the
customer what he/she thinks is reasonable. If the answer is too
low, I decline the job; and if it's way too high I offer to do
the job for what /I/ think is a reasonable price. The rule of
thumb is "Win-win or no deal".

My customers don't much care what tools I use to get a job done;
and I don't/won't work on a time and materials basis - and I
believe the customer should know exactly what a job will cost
before we agree that I should do the work.

Sadly, there's never been /any/ afternoon delight in my shop. )-:

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Mike Marlow wrote:

but I didn't get the first impression that he was
> looking for some F*ck you deal out of the relationship.
>=20
>=20

Looks like this is the fundamental issue .

(Not trying to get you out of context -- I believe you nailed the=20
fundamental issue -- so am just trying to isolate it.)

Guess some of us decided that he was -- and that "the why" did not matter=
=2E..

The "Why" could have been intent or naivety or some combination.

In my experience the result is usually the same -- supplier takes the=20
hit if the job goes bad or takes too much work.

Other people likely have had the same experience and had the same=20
thoughts - rightly or wrongly. (Other people may be better judges of=20
character or intent...)

Guess the only debate should be on whether you allow the benefit of the=20
doubt on these... With the problem being that if you "give" you must=20
commit to spending the time and money to educate. (Been had before by=20
people playing the sincere naif...)

Don't think it's worth my time debating this as I never did figure out=20
the right answer before (I gave) and not likely to now. (Now I don't give=
=2E)

Wish I had some wisdom to offer -- but I don't since I never got it=20
right before and am unlikely to in the future any further comment from=20
me would likely (almost certainly) be pointless.

Feel free to offer any wisdom you have...


And your shot was right on -- I was anything but neutral. See above.

Really appreciate your time and thoughts. Best wishes.

Hope everyone learned something or this was pointless. :-)

--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>=20
>>"WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>>Mike:
>>
>>
>>>Please indulge me as well.
>>
>>
>>But, of course...
>>
>>
>>
>>>Neutral tone in my questions and comments I hope... If not make them
>>>neutral in your mind as best you can..
>>
>=20
>=20
>>Easy to do Will. I've watched you give this your best shot at neutrali=
ty
>>over the past day. Makes it easy to read in that context.
>=20
>=20
> Ah well.. everybody gets a shot now and then. LOL
>=20
> Good one.
>=20
>=20
> No - I was trying to acknowledge your efforts at neutral tone and state=
that
> I had indeed observed those efforts, so it would be easy for me to embr=
ace
> that and put forward a neutral tone as well. I was trying to be
> complimentary. Sorry if it did not come across that way.
>=20

Don't apologize. My mistake. But I really did think...

Anyway -- I do respect the smarts I see on this group. You never know=20
here when you are having your leg pulled -- and I probably did deserve a =

shot and assumed... Guess I'll shut up now. :-)

I wasn't sure actually and hence should have "shut up". LOL

Thank you for the tolerance. Respect your intelligence and=20
thoughtfulness -- even if and when in complete disagreement. And that=20
_is_ a sincere complement -- same to Andy Dingley -- and a few others..



--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>=20
>=20
>>It's easy to forget that that clarification time costs money. Hobbyist
>>or professional...
>=20
>=20
>>Rarely does a person who wants something made want to pay for
>>clarification (IMO). That conclusion was reached over a lot of years.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>So - I am curious Andy: Would you (try to) charge for the extra time
>>spent in clarifying on such a small job? Or would you "eat it"?
>=20
>=20
>>Remember the context of a small job. I have bid many large jobs. Yes I
>>know they can be worth some risk.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hey Will - can I chime in? If so, then IMHO, that clarification time i=
s
> part of overhead. I personally feel that it's reasonable, especially f=
or
> custom work.
>=20


No problem.


IMHO - each job gets assigned overhead. That's always the way it was=20
looked at by the manufacturing shops (custom shops, programming shops=20
etc.) I worked in/dealt with.... I still deal with engineers on (large)=20
foreign projects. I stay out of most things but I am usually clued in as =

to the charge structure as a courtesy (only) -- not as a necessity.=20
(i.e. it's none of my business -- but they don't want comments or=20
questions at the wrong time. LOL)

Is that reasonable IYO?

Many shops assign an overhead factor based on the job -- others do it=20
generally.

Suspect that you are hinting it should be absorbed in "the general cost=20
of doing business" -- but not sure. I was disabused of that notion long=20
ago: a. By cost accountants; b. By losing money on small jobs.

Feel free to comment. Would like to hear your opinion if I am close --=20
or correct me of any misunderstanding.

I have learned quite a bit about how people do business in WW from this=20
discussion. Not really sure where I stand yet. But I am leaning towards=20
the conservative costing approach I learned in the past -- so yes I=20
think (guess) you made some conclusions -- and were right if so.

=2E.And, I clearly feel that Larry J. was right in his original=20
assessment... And made the same one - just didn't comment first cause I=20
wanted to see the knowledge level in the group. It is impressive. (Not=20
that I agree with everyone on everything.)

Thanks.


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Andrew P wrote:
> Uhh...fast and cheap? You act like that isn't an option. Apparently
> my post got interpreted as: "Need High Tolerence Rocket Nozzle milled
> from Kryptonite for $100." eMachineShop will mill it for $180 out of
> T6 (shipped), and $140 out of mdf. And yeah...if you had a cnc in your
> shop and wanted to kick something out for some extra cash so be it. If
> you don't - why waste the time posting? If all of your guys' time is
> worth so much why are you even replying to the post? Get over it. I
> even suggested the exact model router bit - and would buy it for you to
> keep, and pay in advance. And for the price of 1/10th of your entire
> monthly cnc lease payment...can you really complain? If you want me to
> bang it out in solidworks I guess I could...but is it really worthy?
> I'm molding a prototype out of .015 hips...And at 1/2" the walls would
> hold up fine. And yes...I have to drill the ports in the cativies
> myself...ok thanks anyway sorry for disturbing your newsgroup.
>

So it wasn't $100 ????

So it was a prototype?

The Prototype was $180? Not $100?

So it did need a CNC machine?

Still don't know if MDF is suitable till you see it?

Look at the assumptions that were made by Morris Dovey... He then spent
an hour on it. If he chose to subsidize you - good. If it was someone
else fine. If you spent more of your time and more cash -- that is as it
should be.

if you used e-machine shop then you did additional work and - we would
have had to charge for the time?

Where did you get that tip?

What did you actually chose. MDF or metal or plastic?

Did I not suggest hidden requirements? Is that not now apparent?

Oh and learn how to ask your question correctly.

As in this is what I need. How would you make it and What would it cost.

Point made. Go away. Come back when you are a. reasonable and b. humble
and c. appreciate the tips you did get.

You got something free -- good advice -- and now you rub it in that you
used the information and now you wish to sneer.

Stupid. Stupid Stupid.

Good luck in your business -- you _will_ need it.


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Larry & Robatoy:

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:36:05 -0500, the inscrutable Robatoy
> <[email protected]> spake:
>
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>WillR <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Guess I was rude -- wasn't I?
>>
>>Nu-uh. not rude at all..... I tossed the first 3 or 4 replies as well.
>>Sometimes I will write what I really feel....then toss it, just to get
>>rid of my frustration. There are posts where my initial knee-jerk
>>reaction is similar to Dan Ackroyd's "Jane you ignorant slut!"
>>or John Byner's backhander on Bizarre.
>
>
> ROTFLMAO! Ditto here. I cleaned up the language a couple of times
> before posting that.
>
>
>
>>You are right, though.. sometimes it will take a c-note in time spent,
>>just to figure out if my customer and I are even on the same page.
>
>
> Rightio!
>
>
>
>>Another observation I have made over the years, it's the 'favour' jobs
>>that bite you in the ass. The smaller the margin, the better the odds
>>that the customer will turn out to be Freddy Kruger's sister.
>
>
> Ayup. The smaller the job, the more anal the client and the more time
> you spend.
>
>
>
>>That mold, milled out of aluminum and polished... 1000
>>bucks...easy...maybe 1500. That thing needs to be drilled for vacuum
>>access in strategic places as well...oops...just spent 100 bucks
>>thinking.
>
>
> Prolly $300 from emachineshop.com or $800 from a US shop, both
> definitely CNC and both surely metal mold material, prolly alum.
>
>
> -
> Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
> http://diversify.com

Abbot & Costello, Lucy and Ricky, The Honeymooners -- they ain't got
nothin' on you two....

When you go professional with this act I _demand_ that I be allowed to
buy front row seats...

Anyway. Glad to see I wasn't the only one that had "that reaction". LOL
And Larry -- thanks for kicking it off -- I am sure that more people had
a few questions about this one.

The last few posts got hung as wall paper in the shop. Anytime I screw
something up and need a laugh I will wander over and re-read this exchange,

BTW - I did a quick estimate of about $1000 (and got a second opinion)
-- and quite frankly I wouldn't guarantee it. There are indeed a few
hidden gotchas on this one -- including MDF likely being impractical as
it is a four layer product. I don't think routering it in this manner is
a good design choice -- but I am not going to teat or measure to verify.
Ain't worth the time.

If someone in this group takes this on I would not mind a report on the
cost of the job. Not the selling price -- the cost and maybe even how it
was achieved.


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> WillR <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>Andy Dingley is just as bad.... :-)
>=20
>=20

> He's English, you know....

Mmm yes I was aware of that "problem" -- did not wish to embarrass him=20
by making a point of it old chap..

You've outed me again. This must stop! :-)

Another snifter of Don Pedro and I shall be fine.

--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Andy Dingley wrote:
> It was somewhere outside Barstow when WillR
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>IMHO - each job gets assigned overhead.=20
>=20
>=20
> You can't assign overheads - that's the point, they're the bit that's
> not assignable, because you either have to pay it anyway (rent) or you
> can't track where it went (who finished the sandpaper?). =20

Well as I said -- in some systems each job gets a percentage of the=20
general overhead, and yes it is often a BS number -- but a reminder that =

each job must pull it's own weight.

Lets assume a shop that is earning revenue and a profit. From my POV if=20
you take the overhead (the unassignable costs in your terminology) and=20
take a job as a percentage of the revenue and then add the same=20
percentage of the overhead to the job as a cost... If the job doesn't=20
still make money you have to examine your motivation for taking the=20
work. I do _not_ mean -- don't take the work. I mean simply that you=20
_do_ have to look at your motivation to take the work and see if it=20
makes sense -- as in -- does it fit in with your plans and goals, give=20
you access to new and profitable markets. Even saying to yourself -- I=20
can lose money on this one -- I am doing it because I am bored is OK in=20
my book. Based on the assumption at the beginning of the paragraph.

Even had that done to me on contracts I was letting -- where a agreed=20
upon percentage (of the job labour and materials) was paid in addition=20
as overhead. It may have been a method for the FW MBA's to justify their =

existence -- but it was done. So I had to grin and just look at it as a=20
percentage of the job and make a decision whether the bid was economic.

I did not even consider it "fair" or "unfair". It was just the way it=20
was -- and if I wanted that "team" -- those were the rules.

There was a logic to it -- it did encourage everyone not to get=20
extravagant... or something -- I guess.

> Your jobs
> have to be sufficiently profitable in total to allow you to pay for
> overheads out of the general budget. =20

Can't argue with that... Good a way as any to look at it. See above.


> Not assigning them doesn't mean
> that you have to run at a loss.

Hope I never implied that -- but if I did consider it retracted.

Not arguing with what you think -- just trying to present another way of =

looking at it.

If your bank balance is good, and your cash flow is good -- as I think=20
you implied -- who gives a s**t about the overhead -- it must be OK and=20
a few risks are worth taking. If that's what you implied I am good with=20
that. :-)


Really appreciate the time and the comments.

--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Andrew P wrote:
> Andy, I have since found another solution...but the a** r*ping I got
> here yesterday has been bugging me all day...so I returned to get some
> closure only to find 34(!!!!!) more posts about me being an idiot.
> Truth is, the sharp corners are actually bad. I was going to fill them
> in with putty and sand them down. Which brings me to my next point: If
> the mdf didn't fly as a mold I was going to use it as a pattern to cast
> plaster. The point of the bit was to offer the angle required to allow
> the mold to pull from the plastic. I couldn't use eMachineShop because
> the turnaround was 30 (business) days and I needed something sooner. I
> thought "Well maybe I will go try a woodworking newsgroup and see if
> any hobbiests might be interested. A hundred bucks can be worth a lot
> more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a
> hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one
> day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No? I sincerely HAD NO
> IDEA that this group was populated by professional pattern makers,
> engineers, and woodworkers. I am so sincerely sorry for causing so
> much strife in this newsgroup. I guess I should have known better and
> I'm sorry I didn't. I admire your craft to the fullest. I didn't know
> I would insult you; and I *certainly* didn't mean to. I would also
> like to thank Mike Marlow for being reasonable.
>

Someone here has pointed out (IMO) a much better way to approach this --
based on the bit I know from doing some work in plastics manufacturing...

Maybe you should read the posts doing your best to ignore anything you
consider inflammatory..

Nice of you to re-think it and post this.

Actually everyone was reasonable -- in their own way.

It was probably the way you asked.

Even if you are pretty sure it is often wise to ask -- ...


What would be the cost? (Based on the design)
Are there any obvious pitfalls?
Is the design clear?
Is there a better way? Cause maybe I don't know something...



An entirely different reaction might have ensued.

Chalk it up to a learning experience.

Note that the group does have "rec" in the heading. _Maybe_ everyone see
it as a playground and a respite from work and sometimes difficult
clients. (And maybe not too...)


Usenet can be pretty tough on people. Try not to lose any sleep. Your
life does not depend on what we think. LOL


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Andy Dingley wrote:
> It was somewhere outside Barstow when WillR
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>So - I am curious Andy: Would you (try to) charge for the extra time=20
>>spent in clarifying on such a small job? Or would you "eat it"?
>=20
>=20
> Oh, I'd eat it - quite definitely. You have to factor that into your
> overheads for sure, so it all adds to the cost. However trying to
> _track_ the amount of this time would easily add up to even more
> effort.
>=20

Do you add a portion of the overhead to each job as a matter of course?

I think that eating it would be a losing proposition -- and clearly=20
that's why I commented.

My (just) previous post makes that clear -- how my thinking runs.

IMO - not factoring in overhead (general or specific) is a disaster in=20
the making unless this is to gain a long term larger scale client or a=20
general class of business. In this case - except for Morris (maybe!) --=20
it would IMO be a losing proposition. And even then I have learned to be =

cautious and question my own motives. (The clients are usually clear...=20
superior work at a low price.)

Maybe I'm older than I realized and have been had too many times --=20
through exactly that thinking -- "throw it in overhead". Comment - not=20
criticism -- as clearly I have done this and the past an now believe I=20
was wrong.

Thanks for the thoughts...

Any more are welcome.


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Andrew P" <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> [snipperectomized]
>=20
>=20
>>A hundred bucks can be worth a lot
>>more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a
>>hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one
>>day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No?
>=20
>=20
> No.



> My personal structure does not fit that bill, but you had no way of=20
> knowing.=20

Nor mine.


> You jumped to a conclusion. So did I. I thought "here we go=20
> again, another schmuck looking for a freebie/cheepie/to take advantage.=
=2E"
> Now that I have read more of who you are, it has become evident that I=
=20
> was wrong to draw that conclusion and for that I apologize.=20
>=20

Didn't we all. :-(


> Some got caught up in the 'pile-on'. Shit happens. It has happened to=20
> me... as the recipient..so you dust yourself off, wash your hands in=20
> acetone and go on.
> I don't think any of it was 'mean' as such...just out of place.
> Hindsight has 20-20 vision, eh?
>=20

well said.

>=20
>> I sincerely HAD NO
>>IDEA that this group was populated by professional pattern makers,
>>engineers, and woodworkers. I am so sincerely sorry for causing so
>>much strife in this newsgroup. I guess I should have known better and
>>I'm sorry I didn't. I admire your craft to the fullest. I didn't know=

>>I would insult you; and I *certainly* didn't mean to. =20
>=20
>=20
> A lot of what you felt as strife, is just poking fun..but sometimes tha=
t=20
> poking gets a little out of hand, and on the net nobody knows you're a =

> dog, as the saying goes. Humour is very difficult to grasp sometimes=20
> without all the smirks, tongues-in-cheeks, winks, shrugs and all those =

> visual indicators. I have had to explain this before, but if you're not=
=20
> sure if I'm kidding, I am...=20
>=20

Hmmm. Take your word on this one? Gimme a few hours to mull it over. :-)

>=20
>=20
>>I would also
>>like to thank Mike Marlow for being reasonable.
>=20
>=20
> He seems like a reasonable bloke.

Careful -- it may be a carefully crafted facade. I have never found=20
anyone that reasonable before - it has to be a cruel trick and I see he=20
caught you too. LOL

Andy Dingley is just as bad.... :-)


>=20
> Now, WillR, on the other hand, you have to watch out for. <G>

Sheesh - can't trust anybody these days they'll turn on yah for anything.=



>=20
>=20
> 0=BF-
> =98
>=20
> Rob

As an aside -- note that what he is doing is an attempt to automate a=20
food production step. Interesting idea coming from a chef -- that he=20
understands automation and how to alter cost structures. ...And how you =

can take a manual operation and bring it into a system -- kinda like=20
manufacturing. Pretty sharp I think. I guess he does understand these=20
processes.

;-)

(But then my daughter has worked in large kitchens in her student years=20
and she saw the idea...)



--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

J. Clarke wrote:
> Andrew P wrote:
>
>
>>I am starting a small gourmet food business and I need a mold for a
>>vacuum molded tray. I made the vacuum machine myself, however I have a
>>serious lack of tools to make a mold. I was hoping that someone in

[snip]

>>email me through this post or "reply to author." I need someone to
>>send this to me by Friday this week. I will pay for shipping.
>
> Find your nearest high school or vocational school that has a shop. Find a
> student who has access to that shop and _really_ needs that hundred bucks.
>
> Don't be surprised if halfway through either the instructor shuts him off or
> he decides that he's putting far more than 100 bucks worth of effort into
> it.
>
> Seriously, you need to decide whether you want to be in the gourmet food
> business or the plastic tray business and then do one or the other. I
> would be very surprised if there was not someone manufacturing plastic
> trays that would fit your need for less than it will cost you to make them.

Quite true but he probably already knows that and figures he can do it
quicker and cheaper anyway off the backs of somebody here. If that sort
of thinking runs true in his business plan, I think I'd also probably
want to take a pass on his gourmet food... "How much for that butter?
What, you ain't got some that's past the sell date?" LOL!

Andrew P wrote:

> I am starting a small gourmet food business and I need a mold
> for a vacuum molded tray. I made the vacuum machine myself,
> however I have a serious lack of tools to make a mold. I was
> hoping that someone in this newsgroup might be able to make it
> for me this week.

You have mail.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> WillR <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>If you found that our comments were substantially out of place I will b=
e=20
>>pleased to eat crow publicly.
>=20
>=20
> I've eaten crow before, it's not that bad. I used this gourmet=20
> recipe..published on the net by:...my goodness...could it be the same=20
> Andrew?

You need to ask -- with my luck?

probably has ingredients that give it an almond flavor.

--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Morris Dovey wrote:

> I don't have either the taper bit or the 3/16" ball mill (to
> get rid of the sharp angle between walls and floor) on hand,
> but if I have time today I'll cut his prototype mold with
> straight bits and shoot a photo. It'll "sorta" resemble
> Andrew's drawing, but won't be the "real deal".

Just before 5 I finally had time to slap a piece of MDF in the
'Bot and try my little part program. The mold took 10:10
(min:sec) to cut and has two errors:

[1] I displaced the taper cut by 1/16" up and right.
[2] I didn't displace the right cut-off by a tool radius.

Otherwise the part came out pretty much as expected. I used a
1/4" instead of 1/2" down spiral to hog out the cavity because
the 1/2" bit would leave an uncut area in the corners of the
bottom. When I switched to 1/4" bit I also switched from one to
two passes to cut down to the 1/2" depth (which would have been a
single pass with the 1/2" bit).

There's a sketch and photo on A.B.P.W - the ridge around the
bottom of the cavity would have been converted to a fillet if I'd
had a 3/16" ball end cutter.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

WillR wrote:

> If someone in this group takes this on I would not mind a
> report on the cost of the job. Not the selling price -- the
> cost and maybe even how it was achieved.

I have a 3-axis CNC router in my shop and after I finished
today's work I fired up DesignCAD and spent just under ten
minutes drawing a top view with tool paths. Then I spent another
ten minutes hand-coding a part program with a two subroutines
(one for cuts with a 1/2" bit to hog out the bulk of each cavity,
and one to do the finish wall cut) to cut a single cavity. The
main portion of the program calls those subroutines 12 times each
to cut all the pockets. The final step was a sequence of four
cuts to cut the tapered outer edge.

My approach was to use a 1/2" down spiral to hog out most of the
material and accurately size the blank, then use the Amana
tapered bit to do a light (final) stock removal on all of the
"walls". Probably less than eight minutes of cutting time. (1.5
inch/sec at 18,000 RPM)

I hadn't thought about it before tonight, but I think I could add
a logo or business name (as well as drill a hole) at the bottom
of each cavity with about another five to ten minutes of work.

I've never produced or used a mold so I can't make any judgements
as to suitability of MDF - so I simply assumed the OP knows what
he's doing.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Robatoy wrote:

> It turns out the gentleman wanted a proto type. Quite a bit
> different than a production mold. You got the jig to do the
> gig.
>
> It is not often that I feel envy...but a CNC router would be a
> wonderful challenge and addition to my arsenal. It could
> happen. That gets crazy pretty quick...I mean a decent vacuum
> pump alone costs a bundle, not to mention dust control and
> power supply. But cutting out cooktop- and sink holes in my
> solid surfacecountertops...and fancy-pants drainboards??? I'd
> much rather have one of those CNC jobbies (small) than a new
> Range Rover.

Rob...

It's possible to find used machines that cost less than a new
Unisaw. I built my own vacuum clamping setup for less than $100
and have a page on my web site that shows how it can be done on
the cheap. I also have a web page showing how a good dust
collection system can be built inexpensively for a CNC router
(using the HF $150 DC unit and two LV separator lids).

You're welcome to browse around my web site. There're a fair
number of pictures showing everything from setting one up to
holding work while routing - there're pictures of some of the
more interesting possibilities for joinery and even a (very
small) sampling of CNC software.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>$100 for an hour or two of work

If you can't run a joinery shop, all in, for under <$50/hour you're
just doing it wrong.

Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>
>>and to ask for it IN 3 DAYS and for only
>>$100 is a real insult to any self-respecting mold or patternmaker or
>>decent woodworker.
>
>
> ...you beat me to it, Larry...
>
> and you are right about the 1/8" MDF partitions/walls..you'd never get
> them to survive during the fabrication of the mold.... much less pulling
> off a piece of vacuum formed plastic.
>
> That mold s a job for aluminum, IMHO.
>
> 0?0
>
> Rob

Interesting...

I was going to make a smart-ass remark -- but canned the post. Larry was
at least polite -- unlike my first instinct...

If someone had CNC machinery and was geared up for small jobs -- and had
done something almost identical -- maybe.

I find it usually takes an hour just to "understand" a small job
completely -- and there goes the $100. Unless of course you are willing
to do a job over and over and over -- till you discover what the client
really wanted...

And MDF? I thought metal would be better as well.

These jobs always look simple -- sometimes they even are simple --
sometimes they are anything but simple -- most of the times there are
"hidden requirements".

Nice to see that it wasn't only me that thought it an "odd" post. Spec
is actually convoluted as well.

One other thing. It reminds me of many books I have seen where a
"sketch" is passed off as a plan. And of course there have been more
than a few customers that have given me plans at least as good as this
one...

Notice one other thing.... Over the years I have had many clients admit
that they know nothing about engineering and software dictate the tools
and methods to use for the job. In a way it is almost nice to know that
this silliness isn't restricted to one field.

Got no tools - can't do the work - can't create a plan - yet tells one
how to build it. Cute!

Been there done that -- no more please.

Hardwood? -- maybe a very dense strong hardwood! - Compound angles for
$100 har har har. Better get some (acetone free) Gorilla glue and a few
pounds of railroad spikes to hold it together though.

Even someone with a milling machine better note that the plan is not a
plan and had better be able to create one and form it pretty quick -- or
have a template -- otherwise you will be paying $100 to do the job.

Come back with $500 -- as a starting offer.

Guess I was rude -- wasn't I?

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
http://woodwork.pmccl.com

Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [snipperized to be replied to later]
>
>
>> and to top it all off, yer gonna
>>have to clean up the mess with acetone!
>
>
> Oh, I always have a spray bottle of acetone handy.
> I open a blast gate, turn on the DC, and spray directly into the suction
> flow. I do that to keep the ground wires in the PVC ducting clean and
> spiffy. Sometimes the bags blow off the DC, dunno why.
>
> All my cordless tools run better now that I have converted them to
> single-pole 270-degree 4.5 phase direct current. I can now make screws
> pop out of the side of all my cabinets MUCH faster than before.


Any chance you could publish the plans?

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Robatoy wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Morris Dovey
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It's possible to find used machines that cost less than a
>> new Unisaw. I built my own vacuum clamping setup for less
>> than $100 and have a page on my web site that shows how it
>> can be done on the cheap. I also have a web page showing how
>> a good dust collection system can be built inexpensively for
>> a CNC router (using the HF $150 DC unit and two LV separator
>> lids).
>
> I won't need a vacuum unit like this?
> http://www.aerzen.ca/images/images1/bigblowerenlarge.jpg

One of my fellow ShopBotters uses a 15hp vacuum pump. I use the
input side of a (free!) recycled refrigerator compressor and have
been happy with the job it does.

> Those venture-type low volume vacuum generators that are
> mounted inside my Par-a-lign vacuum clamps, can they be had
> separately?

Yes. I've seen 'em advertized (but can't remember where.) I'll
keep my eyes peeled...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Andrew P wrote:

> I am starting a small gourmet food business and I need a mold for a
> vacuum molded tray. I made the vacuum machine myself, however I have a
> serious lack of tools to make a mold. I was hoping that someone in
> this newsgroup might be able to make it for me this week. I can pay
> via paypal in advance if you are interested but I only have $100 to
> spend on this mold. I will pay $50 up front and $50 upon receipt.
> Optionally, if you contact me and want to complete the job, you can
> place an auction on ebay for your service and I can purchase through
> ebay. My feedback rating is 59 and is 100% positive.
>
> Here are some images of what I need made that I drew up in a cad
> program:
>
> http://www.lloydsgourmet.com/pub/view2.gif
> http://www.lloydsgourmet.com/pub/view1.gif
> http://www.lloydsgourmet.com/pub/wire_image.gif
>
> You will need to make a jig and obviously have a router.
>
> I am hoping to find someone that has the bit necessary to do this but
> if you don't I think this one will do (the sharper angle version):
>
http://www.toolstoday.com/displaytools.asp?num=0&pdescription=Solid+Carbide+%26%2339%3BV%26%2339%3B+Groove+Router+Bits
>
> Amana Tool's 45780 could create a good angle. Optionally, and deep
> core box bit at a slight angle with a 1/4" or 3/8" radius could create
> a nice rounded far edge to the cavity. Either way.
>
> The reason that the walls between cavities (and all vertical walls)
> must have an angle is to allow for the plastic to pull off the mold
> after vacuum forming. If the sides were a 90 degree angle, the mold
> would stick inside the plastic.
>
> If you are interested in doing this and think it is worth $100, please
> email me through this post or "reply to author." I need someone to
> send this to me by Friday this week. I will pay for shipping.

Find your nearest high school or vocational school that has a shop. Find a
student who has access to that shop and _really_ needs that hundred bucks.

Don't be surprised if halfway through either the instructor shuts him off or
he decides that he's putting far more than 100 bucks worth of effort into
it.

Seriously, you need to decide whether you want to be in the gourmet food
business or the plastic tray business and then do one or the other. I
would be very surprised if there was not someone manufacturing plastic
trays that would fit your need for less than it will cost you to make them.

> Thank you.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Andrew P wrote:

> Wow... this has gotten way out of hand. Honestly, I'm sorry. It is a
> prototype...sorry. Forget the whole post. I can't believe you guys
> think it is that much work to make a jig and plug in a router. Perhaps
> I will just go to home depot and spend $97 on tools after all. Thank
> you for your help.

Or if you contact a manufacturer of food packaging they will probably
provide you with a suitable prototype from their current production with
the understanding that when you get your first round venture capital
they'll fine tune it to your exact needs for the production runs.

Perhaps you'd have done better to say that you needed to make x number of
plastic trays of thus and so form and could anybody give suggestions on a
cheap way to make a mold.

If you could work with a _male_ mold instead of female it's 8 passes with
the router from the looks of things, or it could be cut on a table saw for
that matter, but would take more passes. If you absolutely _have_ to have
a female mold then you could pull one in acrylic molding compound or
fiberglass off of the male mold.

Making the mold you want directly in MDF without an NC machine and having it
come out decent on the first try is going to be more effort than you
expect.




--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

In article <[email protected]>,
WillR <[email protected]> wrote:

> Andy Dingley is just as bad.... :-)

He's English, you know....

In article <[email protected]>,
WillR <[email protected]> wrote:

> Robatoy wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > [snipperized to be replied to later]
> >
> >
> >> and to top it all off, yer gonna
> >>have to clean up the mess with acetone!
> >
> >
> > Oh, I always have a spray bottle of acetone handy.
> > I open a blast gate, turn on the DC, and spray directly into the suction
> > flow. I do that to keep the ground wires in the PVC ducting clean and
> > spiffy. Sometimes the bags blow off the DC, dunno why.
> >
> > All my cordless tools run better now that I have converted them to
> > single-pole 270-degree 4.5 phase direct current. I can now make screws
> > pop out of the side of all my cabinets MUCH faster than before.
>
>
> Any chance you could publish the plans?

Nope, already sold them to Andrew, sorry. Got a C-note for them. US $.
That is ..errrmm..*calculating*...enough in Kanuckistani Dnjeprs to put
a kid through college.

In article <[email protected]>,
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:

[snipped a great article for brevity's sake]
> I've never produced or used a mold so I can't make any judgements
> as to suitability of MDF - so I simply assumed the OP knows what
> he's doing.

It turns out the gentleman wanted a proto type. Quite a bit different
than a production mold. You got the jig to do the gig.

It is not often that I feel envy...but a CNC router would be a wonderful
challenge and addition to my arsenal. It could happen. That gets crazy
pretty quick...I mean a decent vacuum pump alone costs a bundle, not to
mention dust control and power supply. But cutting out cooktop- and sink
holes in my solid surfacecountertops...and fancy-pants drainboards???
I'd much rather have one of those CNC jobbies (small) than a new Range
Rover.

*drools*

If you can't dream, you're dead.

0?0

Rob

In article <[email protected]>,
"Andrew P" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Uhh...fast and cheap? You act like that isn't an option. Apparently
> my post got interpreted as: "Need High Tolerence Rocket Nozzle milled
> from Kryptonite for $100." eMachineShop will mill it for $180 out of
> T6 (shipped), and $140 out of mdf. And yeah...if you had a cnc in your
> shop and wanted to kick something out for some extra cash so be it. If
> you don't - why waste the time posting? If all of your guys' time is
> worth so much why are you even replying to the post? Get over it. I
> even suggested the exact model router bit - and would buy it for you to
> keep, and pay in advance. And for the price of 1/10th of your entire
> monthly cnc lease payment...can you really complain? If you want me to
> bang it out in solidworks I guess I could...but is it really worthy?
> I'm molding a prototype out of .015 hips...And at 1/2" the walls would
> hold up fine. And yes...I have to drill the ports in the cativies
> myself...ok thanks anyway sorry for disturbing your newsgroup.
>

It would have helped a whole lot had you been more specific in your
original request. Words like 'vacuum-forming molds' and 'non-production
proto-type' have a completely different meaning with this crowd. The
difference in approach is astounding.
You knew what you meant....we didn't.
Communications, my friend.

When a customer of yours says "pickle on the side", you may know if
he/she wants that pickle on the plate or beside plate....left side or
right side....the side of the house... the side of error?

I have seen a lot of people in this group go out of their way to help
others but when you trivialize their effort by putting a monetary value
on that effort, without having any idea what that value is, you can get
an adverse reaction if that number doesn't compute with any of us.

So, instead of laying a trip on anybody, go and buy what you need, learn
the processes involved (keep track of your hours, including that trip to
the Borg for that $97.00 router) get the MDF, router bit, make a jig,
guidebushings, make a few mistakes, clean up after yourself and get back
to us when you're all done.

A(n) $18.00 1/4" shank routerbit (Amana 45780) is hardly a lure either.

Oh...and how I spend my time on the computer doesn't concern you..it is
part of my anger management therapy.

0¿0
*

Rob

In article <[email protected]>,
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:


> Rob...
>
> It's possible to find used machines that cost less than a new
> Unisaw. I built my own vacuum clamping setup for less than $100
> and have a page on my web site that shows how it can be done on
> the cheap. I also have a web page showing how a good dust
> collection system can be built inexpensively for a CNC router
> (using the HF $150 DC unit and two LV separator lids).

I won't need a vacuum unit like this?
http://www.aerzen.ca/images/images1/bigblowerenlarge.jpg

>
> You're welcome to browse around my web site. There're a fair
> number of pictures showing everything from setting one up to
> holding work while routing - there're pictures of some of the
> more interesting possibilities for joinery and even a (very
> small) sampling of CNC software.

I have visited and I am intrigued.

Those venture-type low volume vacuum generators that are mounted inside
my Par-a-lign vacuum clamps, can they be had separately?
http://monumenttoolworks.com/pages/parallign.htm
Small pump source? I have googled myself into tizzy, just can't make
neither heads nor tails from the specs. I seem to get stuck in the
medical research equipment pages.

In article <[email protected]>,
"Andrew P" <[email protected]> wrote:

[snipperectomized]

> A hundred bucks can be worth a lot
> more than a hundred bucks if you can tell your wife that you made a
> hundred bucks carving wood and she gets off your back (for even one
> day!) about buying toys for your woodshop. No?

No.
My personal structure does not fit that bill, but you had no way of
knowing. You jumped to a conclusion. So did I. I thought "here we go
again, another schmuck looking for a freebie/cheepie/to take advantage.."
Now that I have read more of who you are, it has become evident that I
was wrong to draw that conclusion and for that I apologize.

Some got caught up in the 'pile-on'. Shit happens. It has happened to
me... as the recipient..so you dust yourself off, wash your hands in
acetone and go on.
I don't think any of it was 'mean' as such...just out of place.
Hindsight has 20-20 vision, eh?

> I sincerely HAD NO
> IDEA that this group was populated by professional pattern makers,
> engineers, and woodworkers. I am so sincerely sorry for causing so
> much strife in this newsgroup. I guess I should have known better and
> I'm sorry I didn't. I admire your craft to the fullest. I didn't know
> I would insult you; and I *certainly* didn't mean to.

A lot of what you felt as strife, is just poking fun..but sometimes that
poking gets a little out of hand, and on the net nobody knows you're a
dog, as the saying goes. Humour is very difficult to grasp sometimes
without all the smirks, tongues-in-cheeks, winks, shrugs and all those
visual indicators. I have had to explain this before, but if you're not
sure if I'm kidding, I am...


>I would also
> like to thank Mike Marlow for being reasonable.

He seems like a reasonable bloke.

Now, WillR, on the other hand, you have to watch out for. <G>


0¿-
˜

Rob

In article <[email protected]>,
WillR <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you found that our comments were substantially out of place I will be
> pleased to eat crow publicly.

I've eaten crow before, it's not that bad. I used this gourmet
recipe..published on the net by:...my goodness...could it be the same
Andrew?

In article <[email protected]>,
WillR <[email protected]> wrote:

> Guess I was rude -- wasn't I?

Nu-uh. not rude at all..... I tossed the first 3 or 4 replies as well.
Sometimes I will write what I really feel....then toss it, just to get
rid of my frustration. There are posts where my initial knee-jerk
reaction is similar to Dan Ackroyd's "Jane you ignorant slut!"
or John Byner's backhander on Bizarre.

You are right, though.. sometimes it will take a c-note in time spent,
just to figure out if my customer and I are even on the same page.

Another observation I have made over the years, it's the 'favour' jobs
that bite you in the ass. The smaller the margin, the better the odds
that the customer will turn out to be Freddy Kruger's sister.

That mold, milled out of aluminum and polished... 1000
bucks...easy...maybe 1500. That thing needs to be drilled for vacuum
access in strategic places as well...oops...just spent 100 bucks
thinking.

In article <[email protected]>,
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:

> I use the
> input side of a (free!) recycled refrigerator compressor and have
> been happy with the job it does.

Good idea! But I really don't have room for a refrigerator....
.
.
.
.
<g>

In article <[email protected]>,
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:

[snipperized to be replied to later]

> and to top it all off, yer gonna
> have to clean up the mess with acetone!

Oh, I always have a spray bottle of acetone handy.
I open a blast gate, turn on the DC, and spray directly into the suction
flow. I do that to keep the ground wires in the PVC ducting clean and
spiffy. Sometimes the bags blow off the DC, dunno why.

All my cordless tools run better now that I have converted them to
single-pole 270-degree 4.5 phase direct current. I can now make screws
pop out of the side of all my cabinets MUCH faster than before.

In article <[email protected]>,
"SHOOTER1" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Oh for Christmas sake, give it a rest!! All of you have made your point
> (several times!).

Uh ohhh...somebody let his AMT membership lapse...

In article <[email protected]>,
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you could work with a _male_ mold instead of female it's 8 passes with
> the router from the looks of things, or it could be cut on a table saw for
> that matter, but would take more passes. If you absolutely _have_ to have
> a female mold then you could pull one in acrylic molding compound or
> fiberglass off of the male mold.

That is why I never became rich. I need to learn to think outside the
box. Excellent idea, John. (I'm miffed I didn't think of it.)
That approach solves all problems with wall thicknesses etc.
(I am absolutely serious..(it happens sometimes)..)

The Wreck rules! Kudos to Mr. Clarke.

*tip of the hat*

0?0


Rob

In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

> and to ask for it IN 3 DAYS and for only
> $100 is a real insult to any self-respecting mold or patternmaker or
> decent woodworker.

...you beat me to it, Larry...

and you are right about the 1/8" MDF partitions/walls..you'd never get
them to survive during the fabrication of the mold.... much less pulling
off a piece of vacuum formed plastic.

That mold s a job for aluminum, IMHO.

0?0

Rob

In article <[email protected]>,
Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:

> It was somewhere outside Barstow when WillR
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >IMHO - each job gets assigned overhead.
>
> You can't assign overheads - that's the point, they're the bit that's
> not assignable, because you either have to pay it anyway (rent) or you
> can't track where it went (who finished the sandpaper?). Your jobs
> have to be sufficiently profitable in total to allow you to pay for
> overheads out of the general budget. Not assigning them doesn't mean
> that you have to run at a loss.

Bingo!

Andy Dingley wrote:
> It was somewhere outside Barstow when "Andrew P" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>the a** r*ping I got here yesterday has been bugging me all day.
>=20
>=20
> I'm not surprised ! It was well out of line.
>=20
> My point was that your original post was unclear - there were two ways
> to intepret it, for one the costing was reasonable, for the other it
> wasn't. =20


> But if someone wants to feel so offended about you expecting
> too much for too little, they should be carefult that that's really
> what you'd meant.

Andy:

Indulge me please if you have time...

This discussion is worth carrying on because there is something to learn =

here... For all of us.

Neutral Tone here...

It's easy to forget that that clarification time costs money. Hobbyist=20
or professional...

Rarely does a person who wants something made want to pay for=20
clarification (IMO). That conclusion was reached over a lot of years.


So - I am curious Andy: Would you (try to) charge for the extra time=20
spent in clarifying on such a small job? Or would you "eat it"?

Remember the context of a small job. I have bid many large jobs. Yes I=20
know they can be worth some risk.


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

It was somewhere outside Barstow when WillR
<[email protected]> wrote:

>So - I am curious Andy: Would you (try to) charge for the extra time
>spent in clarifying on such a small job? Or would you "eat it"?

Oh, I'd eat it - quite definitely. You have to factor that into your
overheads for sure, so it all adds to the cost. However trying to
_track_ the amount of this time would easily add up to even more
effort.

It was somewhere outside Barstow when WillR
<[email protected]> wrote:

>IMHO - each job gets assigned overhead.

You can't assign overheads - that's the point, they're the bit that's
not assignable, because you either have to pay it anyway (rent) or you
can't track where it went (who finished the sandpaper?). Your jobs
have to be sufficiently profitable in total to allow you to pay for
overheads out of the general budget. Not assigning them doesn't mean
that you have to run at a loss.

Morris Dovey wrote:
> Actually, specs seem to (at least almost) always be flawed in one way o=
r=20
> another - no matter whether you're cutting and pasting Verilog blocks o=
r=20
> MDF blocks.
>=20
> Real competency appears to lie in being able to emerge from the manure =

> pile smelling like roses. In more formal terms, gaining sufficient=20
> understanding of the project's real needs to produce something that=20
> satisfies them (and perhaps helping to modify the spec along the way, s=
o=20
> that everyone learns.)

Can't argue with that.

>=20
> IMO, agreeing to participate in any development effort includes=20
> agreement to participate in debugging the specs - because there isn't=20
> any other way that works. People who sidetrack into issues of rightness=
=20
> and wrongness /subtract/ from constructive effort.

or that... (usually) :-)

> FWIW, in so far as it was intended to, it meets the spec. I produced a =

> reject on the first try, corrected the software part program, and got a=
=20
> good part on the second try. Normally I don't photograph and show the=20
> contents of the scrap bin; but did this time so that I could post befor=
e=20
> servers began pruning the thread.

Like to see them

> If the work had been done for a customer and if the part that met the=20
> spec had not been what was needed, both the customer and I would have=20
> decisions to make about what came next.

Always the case :-)

>> People don't pay for things that don't work. they assume a
>> credible supplier will "make it right" and fix a bad design.
>> Not fair -- but that is experience. (Yes it is anecdotal -- I
>> know) :-)
>=20
>=20
> Glad you put the smiley there, because people always pay for things tha=
t=20
> don't work. They pay in time, in effort, in credibility, in goodwill,=20
> and all of these things have real value. Perhaps because I've been=20
> lucky, my customers have always paid me - or perhaps it's because I've=
=20
> taken pains to think and speak of myself and my customer as co-producer=
s=20
> of /our/ product.


That's what I always thought...


From time to time I've had clients (not many, and not in WW - that=20
issued PO's, that loved the work, got value from it) then decided not to =

pay because "their budget ran short" -- and I do mean they were=20
satisfied and admitted it -- in no uncertain terms. Simply did not wish=20
to pay -- even though they made money off the work. After that I got=20
more cautious.

Not worth anyone's speculation on this -- they did admit that the PO's=20
were not properly approved and all - but no way for me the supplier to=20
know... Even the Purchasing agent was shocked. He left shortly after in=20
the incident with that one large client -- and admitted later I was not=20
the only one to get a "special deal".

Hence the caution these days...

>>> If it did, then Morris proved what everyone else just talked
>>> about, and he proved it to be different than what everyone
>>> else just talked about.
>=20
>=20
> Well - yes and no. "Yes" because I have atypical shop capabilities and =

> in typical shops there'd have been a need for a fair amount of careful =

> planning and fixture/jig design and fabrication before a part could be =

> produced; and "no" because most people weren't thinking in terms of CNC=
,=20
> where a lot of the jigs/fixtures/templates are nothing more than text=20
> files and software on a computer.

True - not CNC.

Now that I know someone who has the capability.. I will not ignore the=20
work I see that could use it. However, everyone I see knows now that I=20
did not want (could not do) that work -- so I will not likely see=20
anything in the near future...

>=20
>> Interesting conclusion. Maybe we should have a long chat in a
>> bar or coffee house one day. After Morris reports -- if he is
>> allowed to...
>=20
>=20
> 'S hard to shut me up. (-:
>=20
> I'd like to make a motion that we meet in my shop (I-80 exit 110 in Iow=
a=20
> - map on web site) for coffee.
>=20

Maybe this summer or fall -- I will be going in that general direction=20
at holiday time...


> A lot of this discussion has been philosophical (isn't philosophy an=20
> important part of woodworking?) The value of a job isn't really just=20
> man/machine hours or "what the market will bear" - as Patriarch, Tom=20
> Watson, and others here remind us from time to time.


Yeah -- interesting to see the various approaches...

>=20
>=20
> In this instance it's a moot issue. The OP's deadline has passed and=20
> he's found an alternative solution.

That's pretty normal.

> The old adage is true: "When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's =

> hard to remember that the original objective was to drain the swamp."=20

I think I live by that.... or maybe it's that people around me do. Hmmm.

> /I'm/ wondering what kind of gourmet goodies will go in the molded=20
> plastic trays - and will they go well with coffee?

The you are a deeper thinker than I. :-)


Nice to know you are there and available.

--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Mike Marlow wrote:

>=20
> This is where the distinction between hobbyist and production shop beco=
me
> operative. For a large percentage of hobbyists, $100 for an hour or tw=
o of
> work that is not so different from what they do every night for free, i=
s a
> pretty good deal. For a production shop, it's a whole different issue.=
=20

Agreed

> The
> hobbyist will often feel he learned something from the exercise, or fee=
l
> good about having done a paying job, or maybe expand his/her skills by
> trying something they've never done before. =20

Agreed

> But - the important point is,
> the hobbyist is by definition, not in it for profit. He's in it for th=
e fun
> of it. Any pay he receives is gravy to him. Losing proposition? Yeah=
,
> maybe, by a measured standard, but if hobbyists were to measure their
> profitability, we'd all have to quit our hobby.
>=20


Agreed. Knitting it is. :-)



--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "Andrew P" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>the a** r*ping I got here yesterday has been bugging me all day.

I'm not surprised ! It was well out of line.

My point was that your original post was unclear - there were two ways
to intepret it, for one the costing was reasonable, for the other it
wasn't. But if someone wants to feel so offended about you expecting
too much for too little, they should be carefult that that's really
what you'd meant.

Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Andrew P" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Uhh...fast and cheap? You act like that isn't an option. Apparently
>>my post got interpreted as: "Need High Tolerence Rocket Nozzle milled
>>from Kryptonite for $100."
> A(n) $18.00 1/4" shank routerbit (Amana 45780) is hardly a lure either.
>
> Oh...and how I spend my time on the computer doesn't concern you..it is
> part of my anger management therapy.
>
> 0¿0
> *
>
> Rob

Rob:

He had me pissed enuff that I never really read your reply.
Guess I have to admit the same...

>Oh...and how I spend my time on the computer doesn't concern you..it
>is part of my anger management therapy.

Well put.

Just curious -- do Dorks like this one cause the need for AMT? Hoping
that most of your customers are more reasonable...

PT Barnum (who I understand was misquoted -- but if he wasn't --) should
have said... "There is an idiot born every minute."



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

WillR wrote:

> Mike Marlow wrote:

> The risk factors bothered me most. Bad specs have high risk.
>
> Even with CNC it has proved be "high risk" for the money
> offered. (IMO)
>
>> I'd be interested in how well Morris' product fit the design
>> specs provided.
>
> Easily IMO -- he seems very competent -- but then they were
> the wrong specs IMO. :-)
>
>> That's really the ultimate qualifier here.

Actually, specs seem to (at least almost) always be flawed in one
way or another - no matter whether you're cutting and pasting
Verilog blocks or MDF blocks.

Real competency appears to lie in being able to emerge from the
manure pile smelling like roses. In more formal terms, gaining
sufficient understanding of the project's real needs to produce
something that satisfies them (and perhaps helping to modify the
spec along the way, so that everyone learns.)

IMO, agreeing to participate in any development effort includes
agreement to participate in debugging the specs - because there
isn't any other way that works. People who sidetrack into issues
of rightness and wrongness /subtract/ from constructive effort.

>> I'm not interested in whether it lead to a re-design, just
>> in whether it met the spec.
>
> To me that is the only issue -- the re-design. But I was
> looking at the difficulty of producing something workable --
> not just meeting the spec. A bad habit I guess.

FWIW, in so far as it was intended to, it meets the spec. I
produced a reject on the first try, corrected the software part
program, and got a good part on the second try. Normally I don't
photograph and show the contents of the scrap bin; but did this
time so that I could post before servers began pruning the thread.

If the work had been done for a customer and if the part that met
the spec had not been what was needed, both the customer and I
would have decisions to make about what came next.

> People don't pay for things that don't work. they assume a
> credible supplier will "make it right" and fix a bad design.
> Not fair -- but that is experience. (Yes it is anecdotal -- I
> know) :-)

Glad you put the smiley there, because people always pay for
things that don't work. They pay in time, in effort, in
credibility, in goodwill, and all of these things have real
value. Perhaps because I've been lucky, my customers have always
paid me - or perhaps it's because I've taken pains to think and
speak of myself and my customer as co-producers of /our/ product.

>> If it did, then Morris proved what everyone else just talked
>> about, and he proved it to be different than what everyone
>> else just talked about.

Well - yes and no. "Yes" because I have atypical shop
capabilities and in typical shops there'd have been a need for a
fair amount of careful planning and fixture/jig design and
fabrication before a part could be produced; and "no" because
most people weren't thinking in terms of CNC, where a lot of the
jigs/fixtures/templates are nothing more than text files and
software on a computer.

> Interesting conclusion. Maybe we should have a long chat in a
> bar or coffee house one day. After Morris reports -- if he is
> allowed to...

'S hard to shut me up. (-:

I'd like to make a motion that we meet in my shop (I-80 exit 110
in Iowa - map on web site) for coffee.

A lot of this discussion has been philosophical (isn't philosophy
an important part of woodworking?) The value of a job isn't
really just man/machine hours or "what the market will bear" - as
Patriarch, Tom Watson, and others here remind us from time to time.

>> If the design proved to be flawed, I'd also be interested in
>> whether the OP was standing by with more funding to re-run a
>> different design - in other words, was willing to pay for
>> each product, regardless of whether it was what he was
>> *really* after.

> That is the ultimate question I agree. Total agreement here --
> are both parties willing stand behind the project and make it
> workable at a _mutually_ acceptable cost.

In this instance it's a moot issue. The OP's deadline has passed
and he's found an alternative solution.

The old adage is true: "When you're up to your ass in alligators,
it's hard to remember that the original objective was to drain
the swamp." /I'm/ wondering what kind of gourmet goodies will go
in the molded plastic trays - and will they go well with coffee?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On 16 Mar 2005 22:02:21 -0800, the inscrutable "Andrew P"
<[email protected]> spake:

>Wow... this has gotten way out of hand. Honestly, I'm sorry. It is a
>prototype...sorry. Forget the whole post. I can't believe you guys
>think it is that much work to make a jig and plug in a router. Perhaps
>I will just go to home depot and spend $97 on tools after all. Thank
>you for your help.

That's a marvelous idea, Andrew. Please do, and let us know 2 things:

1) How many hours it takes you to perform this simple function on MDF.

and

2) How many prototypes it takes you to make one which works and fits
the specs you posted.

Please be honest in reporting, too. I guarantee you'll be surprised at
how complex the task actually is without a CNC machine and experience.

P.S: You said "mold" in the post, not prototype. The difference might
be, say, 5 hours of detailing.

P.P.S: Did you get a quote from emachineshop?

P.P.P.S: Please post pictures of your proto when it's done.


-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com

Mike Marlow wrote:

> At least one regular here took up the effort and took the
> design to product in what I believe was roughly an hour's
> time.

I do that with a lot of stuff as a "learning exercise". It helps
me to hit the ground running when customers walk in and ask: "Can
you..." Dazzles the hell out of 'em when I can say that their
latest nightmare will be ready by lunchtime. (-8

> I'd be interested in how well Morris' product fit the design
> specs provided. That's really the ultimate qualifier here.
> I'm not interested in whether it lead to a re-design, just in
> whether it met the spec. If it did, then Morris proved what
> everyone else just talked about, and he proved it to be
> different than what everyone else just talked about.

I don't have either the taper bit or the 3/16" ball mill (to get
rid of the sharp angle between walls and floor) on hand, but if I
have time today I'll cut his prototype mold with straight bits
and shoot a photo. It'll "sorta" resemble Andrew's drawing, but
won't be the "real deal".

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Mike Marlow wrote:
> "WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>=20
>>Mike:
>=20
>=20
>>Please indulge me as well.
>=20
>=20
> But, of course...
>=20
>=20
>>Neutral tone in my questions and comments I hope... If not make them
>>neutral in your mind as best you can..
>=20


>=20
> Easy to do Will. I've watched you give this your best shot at neutrali=
ty
> over the past day. Makes it easy to read in that context.

Ah well.. everybody gets a shot now and then. LOL

Good one.


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "Andrew P" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>http://www.lloydsgourmet.com/pub/view2.gif

>You will need to make a jig and obviously have a router.


How much were you expecting this thing to cost ?

Now I'm pretty neutral here - I'm overseas: shipping would kill the
deal -- so no axe grinding here.

But I looked at this thing and thought "No, can't make that for this
much". It's the sharp internal corners - I can't rout those and I
can't make them by any other technique for that price.

So I'm guessing that what's happened here is that you've drawn one
picture that can be read two ways. Do you really
_need_ these sharp internal corners ? They're going to cost you an
additional three times the basic cost of a simply routed one.

Andrew P wrote:

> Wow... this has gotten way out of hand. Honestly, I'm sorry. It is a
> prototype...sorry. Forget the whole post. I can't believe you guys
> think it is that much work to make a jig and plug in a router. Perhaps
> I will just go to home depot and spend $97 on tools after all. Thank
> you for your help.
>

Gimme a break. Despite the sarcasm you got some well thought out replies
-- appropriate to your business acumen. Live with it.

If you learned nothing from these posts, then you are a fool or worse.
Think on that long and hard.

Come back when you have respect for other people in business.

And oh yes... I too would love to see the photos. Please some close ups
showing the quality of the compound angle joints.

If you found that our comments were substantially out of place I will be
pleased to eat crow publicly.

BTW:
I'll bet you charge too much for your food -- considering that all you
do is fling some ingredients into a pan, burn it for a few minutes and
fling it on a plate (probably plastic).

Sorry -- couldn't resist the analogy.

Best wishes...



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
http://woodwork.pmccl.com

On 15 Mar 2005 23:58:09 -0800, the inscrutable "Andrew P"
<[email protected]> spake:

>I am starting a small gourmet food business and I need a mold for a
>vacuum molded tray. I made the vacuum machine myself, however I have a
>serious lack of tools to make a mold. I was hoping that someone in
>this newsgroup might be able to make it for me this week. I can pay
>via paypal in advance if you are interested but I only have $100 to
>spend on this mold. I will pay $50 up front and $50 upon receipt.
>Optionally, if you contact me and want to complete the job, you can
>place an auction on ebay for your service and I can purchase through
>ebay. My feedback rating is 59 and is 100% positive.

You've got balls, Andrew. It takes many hours to produce anything
-close- to a finished mold, and to ask for it IN 3 DAYS and for only
$100 is a real insult to any self-respecting mold or patternmaker or
decent woodworker.

Try http://www.emachineshop.com/ . You won't be getting it this week,
but it might be closer to the paltry fee you offered.

100:1 they recommend another material. 1/8" thick walls in MDF aren't
very strong.


-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com

It was somewhere outside Barstow when Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Oh, I always have a spray bottle of acetone handy.

Makes a handy firelighter too, when you want to flame a few of those
pesky christians.

Andy Dingley wrote:
> It was somewhere outside Barstow=20

(Toronto actually - but what the heck...) :-)

> when WillR
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>IMHO - each job gets assigned overhead. That's always the way it was=3D=
20
>>looked at by the manufacturing shops (custom shops, programming shops=3D=
20
>>etc.) I worked in/dealt with....=20
>=20
>=20
> IMHE, only the ones being taken over by fuckwit MBAs who'd spend $100
> to track a single screw.

I never said anything about MBA's -- you did. (Just in case any crazed=20
MBA's with guns are reading this.) Now I gotta clean my screen cause I=20
spit all over it... Notice I carefully avoided comment on useless=20
fuckwit MBA types. But wasn't thinking of tracking single screws --=20
except as noted by you. Simply referred to overhead... And you have=20
answered well so you don't need to re-comment unless you would like=20
to... (But loved your "way with words".)

But I think I understand your point - so that's OK -- tend to agree that =

trivial items should be tracked only on large jobs. The the only issue=20
becomes the "cut-off point" -- which is by nature quite debatable.

(And no -- no MBA here)

> This works for Ford. A million screws is big money. But on the scale
> of Ford you don't need to have overheads. Your volume is large and
> predictable, so you can track plant utilisation accurately and thus
> assign even things like rent and wear on the carpets. Overheads turn
> into per-item costs.
>Easy=20

Agreed. Easier to do at that level. Agreed.


> In a jobbing shop though, you can't do this. A smallwaterjet shop
> with one expensive machine finds it hard to do, because they can't
> predict utilisation perfectly. For a typical woodworking shop, with
> two guys and half-a-dozen machines, it's impossible. Will you be using
> the saw or the moulder tomorrow ? Which project column should I book
> the sharpening charges to ?
>=20

Created system that do this data collection -- so just different=20
experience I guess.

You can't predict utilization better than 80% even in large shops (not=20
in any industries I saw anyway) -- you can only observe (what happened)=20
with close to 100% accuracy. This requires closed loop (adaptive)=20
systems - which should be discussed somewhere else.

Can't argue with your reasoning though if the shop isn't equipped to do=20
the data collection you are correct. IMO. (and since most probably don't.=
=2E.)

Understood. Appreciate the comments. Promise not to get an MBA.


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Mike:

Please indulge me as well.

Neutral tone in my questions and comments I hope... If not make them=20
neutral in your mind as best you can..

Thank you.


Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>=20
>>There are a lot of pros on this group. Why shouldn't there be? The
>>major point seems to be, though, that as things progress you have
>>changed your expressed requirements considerably. With the MDF, you'd
>>have left someone unable to make the product you require, justifying
>>withholding payment, because you didn't explain how you actually wanted=

>>it done, nor did you present options.
>=20
>=20
> To be fair Charlie - isn't that the way it should go? A consumer knows=
what
> he ultimately needs, does some due diligence in attempting to get part =
of
> the way there and to be as demonstrative as he knows how to be (providi=
ng
> drawings that to him are detailed and explanatory), and then comes forw=
ard
> and submits his need, his due diligence effort and a proposed fee that =
he is
> willing to pay based on market research. =20

The proposed fee was based on automated manufacturing - which has a much =

lower cost structure. Clearly (IMO) that wasn't considered and was naive =

(in the neutral sense).

Many manufacturers I dealt with would not run certain machines because=20
they made their operation too expensive -- and so the machines sat idle=20
much of the time. They were needed to supply in overload situations --=20
but then the cost was blended. (Ok - fudged to cover up the loss.)

A hobbyist or professional woodworker has different equipment and a much =

higher cost structure that was not allowed for in the request. Nor was=20
the history of the request provided. Which would have been a vital clue=20
in how to proceed.


>I really didn't see anything in
> his posts that was demanding, was insistent, or otherwise less than
> workable. =20

Given the context of the request and the "hidden info" that came out not =

sure I agree - but is that the central issue? To me anything less than=20
full disclosure in these situations wastes a lot of time. And it did...

> In fact, I've seen quite the opposite. He's already acknowledged
> some of the suggestions that have come up here - a good example being t=
he
> suggestion of inverting the mold. =20

As I pointed out earlier -- that was free advice. The client did not pay =

for value received. Is that fair? Would he have paid a hobbyist the true =

value to make his idea workable. Doesn't seem reasonable to me...=20
Reasonable in the sense that the charges would/should have been much=20
greater than the perceived value. This is not a slight -- just an=20
observation I have made in hundreds of similar situations.

> Isn't that what dialog is all about? I
> know this - when I go to someone, prepared as best as I can possibly be=
, I
> find that it is almost unavoidable that there is some dialog between th=
at
> person and myself with respect to alternative methods, etc. =20

Dialog -- or design expertise? :-)

Do you pay? Is there an ongoing relationship that make sit worth while=20
to both of you? Is it a "one-off" situation such as this. Are the=20
situations comparable?

> Things that I
> just didn't think of, for any number of reasons. That's just the way i=
t
> should go. In this thread, that whole dynamic has been turned into som=
e
> sort of reason to dump on this guy. Shame.

Not really. Misunderstandings on both sides -- and the client chose a=20
public venue. Their call. Probably a bad call - but their call and the=20
way they asked the questions.

Had I know they had gotten a price structure from an automated=20
manufacturer I would have recognized the issue immediately. (I hope or I =

would have been ashamed.) That information was withheld. Should I have=20
spotted it? Maybe -- as those sorts of drawings can be made with a $49=20
package -- maybe not.


>=20
>>Basically, no one on here is a mind reader. Explain what you want. Be
>>prepared to pay a reasonable price for it. A hundred bucks to cover
>>materials and two days' work to keep my wife from bugging me about
>>money for tools isn't my idea of a fair trade, especially when the
>>original specs are so screwed up I'd end up with just the experience
>>for my work.
>>
>=20
>=20
> It may well be that the two prices he mentioned in another post are the=

> absolute best prices he's going to be able to get, but at least from th=
e
> perspective of the researched prices, he did offer a reasonable price.

To an automated manufacturer -- yes. Not by the techniques used by most=20
people in this group. Misstated requirements -- not our problem. A=20
problem -- Yes! Not ours. But had an under-equipped person done this it=20
would have been a serious problem for them. Thank good for little=20
mercies -- and Morris -- and Tom knowing who could do what... :-)


> Perhaps not to all here, but again, this is primarily a hobbyist group =
and
> to a lot of hobbyists, that could very conceivably be a very fair price=
=2E
> Can't tear the guy up for asking.
>=20


Only if you don't know your own costs -- or are content to subsidize=20
someone's business effort (for whatever reason). IMO - and this can be=20
easily calculated. So it need not be debated -- since it is different=20
for all our shops.



> At least one regular here took up the effort and took the design to pro=
duct
> in what I believe was roughly an hour's time. =20


Using the original methods priced. And now hopefully with a different=20
design and approach -- but either way it is beyond us now.

> That's $100/hour. I'd wager
> no one here knocks down that kind of money, even the pros. =20

I would have questioned the price even with the CNC machine. The=20
client's price was not economic. And I suspect there is at least some=20
extra costs now.

> Double the
> effort - it's still $50/hour. =20

For that kind of machinery? Hmm -- would have to look at the cost=20
structure of the shop that did it -- and it is not my business -- in=20
either sense. And I was used to routinely doing those estimates and=20
costs -- and I would not dare make the conclusion that you did. Maybe=20
you have more experience -- I simply don't know and don't care for a=20
pissing match -- because I don't know peoples numbers and would make=20
erroneous conclusions and estimates. Maybe you would be willing to make=20
a general comment as to whether you are guessing or have experience in=20
these types of job shop or manufacturing estimates. Maybe somebody with=20
a great deal of experience in job shop would be willing to give a second =

opinion -- and I would like to hear it.


> Still probably well within the expectations
> of most shops and certainly for any amateur that's interested in that k=
ind
> of work. =20

IMO you are wrong. Difficult without CNC and particularly with MDF if=20
you want a "smooth" mold. But then the spec for the required smoothness=20
wasn't given -- was it? So either of us could be right. And if the mold=20
is not smooth enough is that a justification fro withholding payment --=20
based on the non-spec? that was one of the issues that bothered me.

> Any more time than that and some will probably drop off due to the
> income/effort ratio, but again - in a hobbyist group, it still did not =
seem
> like an unreasonable expectation on the surface, that there would be pe=
ople
> interested in the job.

Only because the job was badly specced -- but then people picked up on it=
=2E

IMO -- it was unreasonable. I was looking at it from a=20
hobbyist/professional woodworker perspective. Did not make sense with my =

cost structure. And I can work pretty cheap if I want to.

The risk factors bothered me most. Bad specs have high risk.

Even with CNC it has proved be "high risk" for the money offered. (IMO)

> I'd be interested in how well Morris' product fit the design specs prov=
ided.

Easily IMO -- he seems very competent -- but then they were the wrong=20
specs IMO. :-)

> That's really the ultimate qualifier here. =20

Don't agree - but that's an opinion.

> I'm not interested in whether it
> lead to a re-design, just in whether it met the spec. =20

To me that is the only issue -- the re-design. But I was looking at the=20
difficulty of producing something workable -- not just meeting the spec. =

A bad habit I guess.

People don't pay for things that don't work. they assume a credible=20
supplier will "make it right" and fix a bad design. Not fair -- but that =

is experience. (Yes it is anecdotal -- I know) :-)

> If it did, then
> Morris proved what everyone else just talked about, and he proved it to=
be
> different than what everyone else just talked about. =20

Interesting conclusion. Maybe we should have a long chat in a bar or=20
coffee house one day. After Morris reports -- if he is allowed to...

> If the design proved
> to be flawed, I'd also be interested in whether the OP was standing by =
with
> more funding to re-run a different design - in other words, was willing=
to
> pay for each product, regardless of whether it was what he was *really*=

> after.
>=20

That is the ultimate question I agree. Total agreement here -- are both=20
parties willing stand behind the project and make it workable at a=20
_mutually_ acceptable cost.


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>If you could work with a _male_ mold instead of female it's 8 passes wi=
th
>>the router from the looks of things, or it could be cut on a table saw =
for
>>that matter, but would take more passes. If you absolutely _have_ to h=
ave
>>a female mold then you could pull one in acrylic molding compound or
>>fiberglass off of the male mold.
>=20
>=20
> That is why I never became rich. I need to learn to think outside the=20
> box. Excellent idea, John. (I'm miffed I didn't think of it.)
> That approach solves all problems with wall thicknesses etc.
> (I am absolutely serious..(it happens sometimes)..)
>=20
> The Wreck rules! Kudos to Mr. Clarke.
>=20
> *tip of the hat*
>=20
> 0?0
>=20
>=20
> Rob

Hope he doesn't spot that post. I did think of that but he asked for MDF =

eh? (And a mold.) And it is not what he specced. Sometimes the revenge=20
is in delivering the product as requested.

That said - kudos to the gentleman (J. Clarke). He deserves them.

Hope Andrew gets it in MDF -- should be interesting.

The fellow got Several $K worth of good advice -- along with a=20
lambasting true -- but he expressed precious little appreciation.

Typical chef... :-)


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw