Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call the
spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that is
as wide as its knives are long.
It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
Any guidance will be appreciated.
"skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
> of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call the
> spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
> with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
> sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that is
> as wide as its knives are long.
>
> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
> Any guidance will be appreciated.
>
Plywood.
It's always flat.
And you can buy a lot of it for what you'll spend on this.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002238N/002-0213463-6344050?v=glance
skipsizemore wrote:
> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm
not
> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
> of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call
the
> spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
> with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
> sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that
is
> as wide as its knives are long.
>
> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need,
but
> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
> Any guidance will be appreciated.
I'm just a hobbiest, but 12" models are extremely expensive, and I'm
sure very rare, except in production shops. I'd imagine that you'd be
spending several thousand dollars at a minimum for such a machine, and
to make shelves??!
Seems to me that you might want to consider doing what most of the rest
of us do, buy a 6" model, joint 2, 6 inch boards and glue them back
together as one, flat 12" board. You could even send the whole thing
through a 12" planer at that point, and you'd have a very nice 12"
board. Heck, you could buy an excellent 6" jointer and a 13" planer
for a lot less than what you'd spend for a 12" jointer.
Wow, I'm surprised and really very pleased that my original post
generated so much traffic. Let me clarify my situation somewhat. I
realize that a new 12" jointer will run me at least $2k, and that it
will require help to place, move, and power. I'm not independently
wealthy, but I do believe in saving up and buying the tool that will do
what I want and last me for a good long time.
I do have a good 13" planer (Christmas present), and I've been very
impressed with the way that it produces a finished plank from a flat,
rough-sawn piece of lumber. But I'd like to be able to remove the cup
that so often shows up in wider lumber, and the planer doesn't do much
of that. You can, I've read, stick some shims against the concave side
of the board before sending it through the planer, but the planer has
enough work to do just feeding and cutting a wide piece of hardwood.
I do build a lot of shelves and I'd like to start selling them, since
quite a few folks have asked me to make them for them, and books are a
big industry here in Charlottesville. I use a PC plate joiner and some
clamps that I made myself (from 2x4's and threaded rod-they work great)
to put them all together, but I'd like to avoid having to join two
narrow pieces for the sides because 1. it's a bit of a pain, and 2. it
doesn't look as nice even with two halves of the same original board,
thanks to the kerf.
If I can remove the cup from a wide board with an 8" jointer (and it
sounds to me like I can) then obviously I'd rather save the extra
thousand dollars for lumber, electricity, and food. 8^)
Oh and, though I'm not trolling, I AM making a 7' by 30" bookcase out
of walnut at present. I can get it from the local mill for $4-6 per
b.f., which isn't too bad when I can find enough flat stock. Lowe's
wants almost $4.50/bf for clear pine, so it's not all that much to pay
for such gorgeous wood. I'm going to make the normally unseen back
halves of some of the shelves out of a cheaper wood and join them with
biscuits.
Thanks very much for all the info; I'm going to read it all carefully.
No such luck -- it's a DeWalt 735. It works well for me because I'm
patient and don't work with huge quantities of wood at once. I've got
the feed tables (not really optional accesories, IMHO) and some roller
stands, and so far I haven't had any problem with snipe at all, even on
~12.5 x 100 x 1.1 walnut. I don't think that I can adjust it they way
you can a good shop planer, though, in order to remove cup.
Your point about the hand plane is a good one. I'm always amazed by
how much it can do, but I've never tried using for getting rid of cup.
Maybe I'll try it on some cupped pine and see what happens. Thanks!
I haven't crosscut my walnut at all because I want to see which pieces
look best after planing, so that I can use those for the sides. I
figured I'd start by just getting the biggest rectangles I can out of
each board before doing anything else.
Upscale wrote:
>
> "skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
> > sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
> > able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
>
> A jointer is typically used to flatten the edges of boards. If you're
> flattening the faces of boards on a regular basis, then it's a planer that
> you'd want. You can flatten boards on a jointer, but for the price of one
> that could handle 12" boards, you could buy both a planer and a jointer that
> would likely handle all your needs. For squaring the faces and edges of
> stock, a planer and a jointer are often purchased as a pair.
Oh dear, yet again...
A planer will thickness a board, but it will not produce a flat working
face to start from....that's the jointer's job first (or a hand plane or
other technique).
To OP, if you start looking seriously, you'll find a 12" jointer will be
<very> expensive and probably too large and heavy for your shop plus
almost all will be for 3 phase power.
If you have the room and budget, I'd recommend 8", but 6" will do
adequate work. Look for longest bed you can get as one feature--the
longer the bed the easier to handle longer work which w/ bookshelves
will be a possible issue.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> No, it absolutely is not. A planer makes opposite surfaces of a board
> parallel. It does not make boards flat. For that, you need a jointer.
>
Of course this surfaces (HAHA) often, because there are many who flatten
just fine on their planers by using good sense and procedure, but there's
also the planer sled. Get yourself a copy of FWW and check it out.
"skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I do have a good 13" planer (Christmas present), and I've been very
> impressed with the way that it produces a finished plank from a flat,
> rough-sawn piece of lumber. But I'd like to be able to remove the cup
> that so often shows up in wider lumber, and the planer doesn't do much
> of that. You can, I've read, stick some shims against the concave side
> of the board before sending it through the planer, but the planer has
> enough work to do just feeding and cutting a wide piece of hardwood.
>
>
> If I can remove the cup from a wide board with an 8" jointer (and it
> sounds to me like I can) then obviously I'd rather save the extra
> thousand dollars for lumber, electricity, and food. 8^)
>
> Oh and, though I'm not trolling, I AM making a 7' by 30" bookcase out
> of walnut at present. I can get it from the local mill for $4-6 per
> b.f., which isn't too bad when I can find enough flat stock. Lowe's
> wants almost $4.50/bf for clear pine, so it's not all that much to pay
> for such gorgeous wood. I'm going to make the normally unseen back
> halves of some of the shelves out of a cheaper wood and join them with
> biscuits.
> Thanks very much for all the info; I'm going to read it all carefully.
>
A "good 13" planer" should have bed rollers and a serrated steel infeed
roller? If so, piece of cake to get the cup out, as the planer will feed a
board with almost zero infeed pressure after adjustment. If you sight the
board and do even some crude work with a hand plane you can get a _lot_ of
twist out easily, plus local lumps around knots and such. Of course, those
would take some effort even on a jointer. Can't slavishly slap the board
down and hope for flat and thick, pays to be crafty and take off only the
high stuff first.
Neat thing about a 30" bookcase is that you can make a sled for a 30" board
and do 'em all, if you care to. You are crosscutting a bit long prior to
surfacing?
"skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Your point about the hand plane is a good one. I'm always amazed by
> how much it can do, but I've never tried using for getting rid of cup.
> Maybe I'll try it on some cupped pine and see what happens. Thanks!
>
> I haven't crosscut my walnut at all because I want to see which pieces
> look best after planing, so that I can use those for the sides. I
> figured I'd start by just getting the biggest rectangles I can out of
> each board before doing anything else.
>
Not for cup, for twist, where you knock down opposite corners, and intrusion
where you've got a lump close to a knot. Quite a bit of effort for cup,
especially as you can work the side opposite of the crown, two high edges,
on the jointer one at a time.
My advice - use your mark one mod zero eyeballs , and maybe a wipe with
mineral spirits to estimate "best looking" boards, and get them closer to
manageable size before milling.
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:16:10 -0500, Paul Kierstead
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Phisherman wrote:
>
>> Flatten 12" boards with a planer. Create a straight edge with a
>> jointer. I have a DJ-20 which has 8" blades and a nice long feed
>> table, great for doors.
>
>One has to ask: If you are of the opinion that a jointer only need be
>used to create straight edges, and a planer for faces, then why do you
>have an 8" jointer?
>
>PK
Use the proper tool for what you want to do. Using a jointer in
attempt to flatten a board will give you a board with an uneven
thickness. A jointer is no substitute for a planer. As for the
DJ-20, I bought it mainly for the bed size and the mechanism of
adjusting the bed rather than the size of the knives. I can also cut
a rabbet with the DJ-20, but there are better tools to cut rabbets.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
>How else would you put an edge on 32/4 stock :)
>
I saw some of that at the Borg the other day, quartersawn, but they
only had it in widths of 3/4" and 1-1/2".
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
Phisherman wrote:
> Use the proper tool for what you want to do. Using a jointer in
> attempt to flatten a board will give you a board with an uneven
> thickness.
See, thats the thing. There is a reason they are called *thickness*
planers. They are indeed real handy for making things consistent
thickness. They do not flatten a board.
> A jointer is no substitute for a planer.
Indeed. I am curious; if you are so convinced that a planer is for the
faces and a jointer is for edges, why do you suppose there are 16"+
jointers?
PK
Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have also heard that if you set a planer to *really*
>light passes, it can flatten a fair deal,
I guess I can see that for cupped lumber, or bow in a short, thick
piece, where the pressure/feed rollers (they are one and the same on
small bench-top planers, aren't they?) don't have the "muscle" to
straighten out the warp. But I can't see it at all for twist, since
the board will rock freely with the lightest pressure from the
rollers.
> though to be honest my DeWalt
>puts quite a bit of pressure on the board before cutting at all; i.e.
>the rollers seem to be a fair be lower then the head.
Same with my Delta. Seems like they would have to be to do their job.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
Correction: 16 -18 inch drum sander not belt sander.
"Joseph Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ETBHd.12946$Os6.2397@trnddc08...
>I agree with doug. I don't see any need for a 12 inch jointer. I don't
> know about you lumber supplier, but mine carries much more 6 inch
> wide lumber than 12. So I can be much chooser and pick thru the
> 6 inch stuff for favorable grain patterns, less defects, fewer knots,
> etc.... than the 12.
> Plus the power requiremnts for a 12 must be incredible. I may be wrong,
> but we should be talking 220V at a minimal and probably three phase
> power. Takes a lot of HP to true up one face before running it thru a
> planer. I bet the joiner would weigh a ton, too.
> Plus after you look at the price of a 12 inch joiner one could buy a 6
> inch
> joiner, a 12-13 inch planer, a decent biscuit jointer, and some Besseys or
> Jorgys to clamp them together ( and depending on the brand of 12 inch
> joiner,
> mayber a 16 or 18 belt sander to smooth out the joined boards).
> Joey
>
> "Doug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> skipsizemore wrote:
>>> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm
>> not
>>> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
>>> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
>>> of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call
>> the
>>> spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
>>> with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
>>> sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that
>> is
>>> as wide as its knives are long.
>>>
>>> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need,
>> but
>>> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
>>> Any guidance will be appreciated.
>>
>>
>> I'm just a hobbiest, but 12" models are extremely expensive, and I'm
>> sure very rare, except in production shops. I'd imagine that you'd be
>> spending several thousand dollars at a minimum for such a machine, and
>> to make shelves??!
>>
>> Seems to me that you might want to consider doing what most of the rest
>> of us do, buy a 6" model, joint 2, 6 inch boards and glue them back
>> together as one, flat 12" board. You could even send the whole thing
>> through a 12" planer at that point, and you'd have a very nice 12"
>> board. Heck, you could buy an excellent 6" jointer and a 13" planer
>> for a lot less than what you'd spend for a 12" jointer.
>>
>
>
"Paul Kierstead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Phisherman wrote:
>
>> Flatten 12" boards with a planer. Create a straight edge with a
>> jointer. I have a DJ-20 which has 8" blades and a nice long feed
>> table, great for doors.
>
> One has to ask: If you are of the opinion that a jointer only need be used
> to create straight edges, and a planer for faces, then why do you have an
> 8" jointer?
>
> PK
How else would you put an edge on 32/4 stock :)
I agree with doug. I don't see any need for a 12 inch jointer. I don't
know about you lumber supplier, but mine carries much more 6 inch
wide lumber than 12. So I can be much chooser and pick thru the
6 inch stuff for favorable grain patterns, less defects, fewer knots,
etc.... than the 12.
Plus the power requiremnts for a 12 must be incredible. I may be wrong,
but we should be talking 220V at a minimal and probably three phase
power. Takes a lot of HP to true up one face before running it thru a
planer. I bet the joiner would weigh a ton, too.
Plus after you look at the price of a 12 inch joiner one could buy a 6 inch
joiner, a 12-13 inch planer, a decent biscuit jointer, and some Besseys or
Jorgys to clamp them together ( and depending on the brand of 12 inch
joiner,
mayber a 16 or 18 belt sander to smooth out the joined boards).
Joey
"Doug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> skipsizemore wrote:
>> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm
> not
>> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
>> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
>> of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call
> the
>> spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
>> with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
>> sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that
> is
>> as wide as its knives are long.
>>
>> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need,
> but
>> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
>> Any guidance will be appreciated.
>
>
> I'm just a hobbiest, but 12" models are extremely expensive, and I'm
> sure very rare, except in production shops. I'd imagine that you'd be
> spending several thousand dollars at a minimum for such a machine, and
> to make shelves??!
>
> Seems to me that you might want to consider doing what most of the rest
> of us do, buy a 6" model, joint 2, 6 inch boards and glue them back
> together as one, flat 12" board. You could even send the whole thing
> through a 12" planer at that point, and you'd have a very nice 12"
> board. Heck, you could buy an excellent 6" jointer and a 13" planer
> for a lot less than what you'd spend for a 12" jointer.
>
Joe C. wrote:
> "skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
>>sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
>>able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
>>of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call the
>>spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
>>with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
>>sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that is
>>as wide as its knives are long.
>>
>>It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
>>if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
>>Any guidance will be appreciated.
>>
>
>
> Plywood.
>
> It's always flat.
>
> And you can buy a lot of it for what you'll spend on this.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002238N/002-0213463-6344050?v=glance
>
>
Dear OP
At the risk of prolonging this thread, the 12" jointer referenced above
is $3800.00. If you assume that you could have your wood supplier dress
your wood for $1/bf, you could make 3800 ft of shelving before paying
for the jointer, neglecting the cost of the power. Of course, you could
probably get that wood dressed for MUCH less than $1/bf. 4000ft of
shelving is a LOT of shelving unless you are making it for sale.
A 12 incher? You are seriously considering one? I'm impressed! I know
18 man cabinet shops that don't have one of those and get by just fine.
Just how MANY solid wood shelves are you turning out per annum, if I
may ask?
David
skipsizemore wrote:
> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
> of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call the
> spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
> with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
> sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that is
> as wide as its knives are long.
>
> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
> Any guidance will be appreciated.
>
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
> of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call the
> spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
> with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
> sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that is
> as wide as its knives are long.
>
> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
> Any guidance will be appreciated.
>
>
Check back with us after you've checked the prices of eight and twelve
inch jointer. Better yet, after you have looked at what a 12" plank will
cost you
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
[email protected]
www.heirloom-woods.net
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> A jointer is typically used to flatten the edges of boards. If you're
> flattening the faces of boards on a regular basis, then it's a planer that
> you'd want. You can flatten boards on a jointer, but for the price of one
> that could handle 12" boards, you could buy both a planer and a jointer that
> would likely handle all your needs. For squaring the faces and edges of
> stock, a planer and a jointer are often purchased as a pair.
>
>
>
A jointer is typically used, by those who know what they are for, to,
first, flatten a reference face on the stock so that you can then put
that face against the fence and get a jointed edge at a true ninety
degrees to that face. From there the table saw and planer will establish
the other faces by referencing off the jointed face and edge.
While, with smaller not to badly warped stock, it is not impossible to
successfully get a flat face on a piece of stock with a planer it does
take some dicking around and jigs to do it. A planer however will not,
can not , give you a trued edge.
If I had to do without one or t'oer I'd go without the planer. Any fool
can establish a true board with a hand plane, resawing on a band saw or
table saw or, god forbid, a belt sander, once one face and edge is true.
Considering the weight and mass of a 12" plank it would be virtually
impossible to "joint" such a board unless one had and industrial sized
planer and was willing to do the dicking around necessary. I'd have to
assume anyone with such a planer would also have and recognize the value
of an equally competent jointer.
--
Mike G.
Heirloom Woods
[email protected]
www.heirloom-woods.net
Hi- I agree with Dave. If you can find an old 16 inch jointer go for it. My
son buys rough sawn lumber from mills
and his 16 " is about right. Wider jointer will allow you to run the
stock thru on an angle to get a shearing cut.
Trying to face joint a 6 inch oak board on a six inch jointer is not a
pleasant experience. It will tell you you are taxing it.
A 240V. three phase motor can be handled by a rotary phase converter,
no big deal. Keep your sights high. Jim.
Dave Jackson <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Contrary to everyone else's opinion, i say go for it. Sure, they cost
much
> more, but also will handle wider stock. Personally, I've been going to
> auctions and keeping an eye on classifieds for a larger jointer for months
> now, >8". Eventually it'll happen. When i bought mine, all i could
afford
> was a 6" and, although it's a good machine, it didn't take long to realise
> that a 12" would be more suited to my needs. My local lumber mill usually
> has wide boards (heck, i have some left over oak >20" wide) in stock.
> Although most shops cannot handle real wide stock without ripping it down,
> IMO, ideally, the width of your jointer should match the width of your
> planer. Sure'd be nice to be able to face a 12" wide board. --dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Paul Kierstead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > skipsizemore wrote:
> >> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
> >> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
> >> Any guidance will be appreciated.
> >
> > Don't forget to budget for floor re-enforcements.
> >
> > PK
>
>
alexy wrote:
> Just to be fair, they CAN flatten a board, even though that is not
> their primary purpose. I'm sure you are referring to the fact that if
> you have an 8/4 board 12" wide with a twist, repeated passes through a
> planer will give you a thinner and thinner twisted board. (same with
> cup or bow)
<snip good description of planer sled>
Very true. However, a router can do this as well, but nobody would say
it is the "right" tool for the job; just a tool that could get the job
done in a pinch. I have also heard that if you set a planer to *really*
light passes, it can flatten a fair deal, though to be honest my DeWalt
puts quite a bit of pressure on the board before cutting at all; i.e.
the rollers seem to be a fair be lower then the head. So I don't know
about that one.
PK
In article <[email protected]>, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
>> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
>> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
>
>A jointer is typically used to flatten the edges of boards.
And the faces.
>If you're
>flattening the faces of boards on a regular basis, then it's a planer that
>you'd want.
No, it absolutely is not. A planer makes opposite surfaces of a board
parallel. It does not make boards flat. For that, you need a jointer.
>You can flatten boards on a jointer,
Yep. That's what jointers are for.
> but for the price of one
>that could handle 12" boards, you could buy both a planer and a jointer that
>would likely handle all your needs.
Quite.
>For squaring the faces and edges of
>stock, a planer and a jointer are often purchased as a pair.
And used as a pair, too -- by flattening one *face* of a board on the jointer,
then using the planer to make the opposite face parallel to it.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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<< >If you're
>flattening the faces of boards on a regular basis, then it's a planer that
>you'd want.
No, it absolutely is not. A planer makes opposite surfaces of a board
parallel. It does not make boards flat. For that, you need a jointer.
>>
Gentlemen,
I've never understood how a planer can make opposite sides parallel, if it
doesn't also make them flat? If one face-joints one side of a board, then runs
the opposite surface through a planer, is the planed surface considered flat?
Does the board then need to be face jointed on the planed side? When I look at
a board that has been planed to thickness, it looks flat to me. How flat is
flat?
I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer. I really want to know.
Curt Blood
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (CBlood59) wrote:
><< >If you're
>>flattening the faces of boards on a regular basis, then it's a planer that
>>you'd want.
>
>No, it absolutely is not. A planer makes opposite surfaces of a board
>parallel. It does not make boards flat. For that, you need a jointer.
> >>
>
>Gentlemen,
>
>I've never understood how a planer can make opposite sides parallel, if it
>doesn't also make them flat?
The surfaces of two concentric arcs are parallel, are they not?
I suppose it's more accurate to say that a planer makes a board a consistent
thickness, that the two faces are a constant distance from each other whether
measured side to side or end to end.
> If one face-joints one side of a board, then runs
>the opposite surface through a planer, is the planed surface considered flat?
Of course. But suppose you have a board with a slight bow in it, and you run
it through a planer without face-jointing it first. You get a board that is a
consistent thickness, smooth, and still bowed.
Same thing applies to twist. If it's twisted going into the planer, it's gonna
be twisted coming out.
Unless you use a planer sled with shims, as others have pointed out -- but
please note that the purpose of doing so is to allow the planer to perform the
work of a jointer. I prefer to joint with the jointer, and plane with the
planer. Seems to be easier that way.
>Does the board then need to be face jointed on the planed side?
NO! If you do that, you no longer have any guarantee that the opposite faces
are parallel, i.e. no guarantee that the board is a consistent thickness side
to side OR end to end.
>When I look at a board that has been planed to thickness, it looks flat to
>me.
If it was jointed first, by whatever method you choose, it *is* flat.
>How flat is flat?
For some folks, S4S lumber from the Borg is flat enough. It just depends on
how picky you are.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> No, it absolutely is not. A planer makes opposite surfaces of a board
>> parallel. It does not make boards flat. For that, you need a jointer.
>>
>
>Of course this surfaces (HAHA) often, because there are many who flatten
>just fine on their planers by using good sense and procedure, but there's
>also the planer sled. Get yourself a copy of FWW and check it out.
>
Yep, saw that. It's a good idea, but for most boards 6" and under, i.e. narrow
enough to fit on my jointer... the jointer is a _whole_lot_ less work.
--
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joeD wrote:
> I agree with most of the replies that an 8" jointer would do just fine in
> most shops. But if you insist on 12" look here:
> http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G4178 I think its
> pretty reasonable if a 12" jointer is what you really want. It even comes
> with a free pair of push blocks.
Actually, I have to say, I looked at a couple and they were not much
heavier then the 8" models. I had assumed they were extremely heavy,
going on the 8" models (which I have looked at quite a bit). Even a
General weighs in at only 1000 lbs or so.
In any case, one can only conclude one of the following:
- the OP was trolling. I am surprised he didn't say he wanted to make
them of walnut or something.
- the OP isn't really familiar with the tools, prices and sizes
- the OP has waaay more money then necessary (good for the economy!)
PK
Phisherman wrote:
> Flatten 12" boards with a planer. Create a straight edge with a
> jointer. I have a DJ-20 which has 8" blades and a nice long feed
> table, great for doors.
One has to ask: If you are of the opinion that a jointer only need be
used to create straight edges, and a planer for faces, then why do you
have an 8" jointer?
PK
"skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I do have a good 13" planer (Christmas present), and I've been very
>impressed with the way that it produces a finished plank from a flat,
>rough-sawn piece of lumber. But I'd like to be able to remove the cup
>that so often shows up in wider lumber, and the planer doesn't do much
>of that. You can, I've read, stick some shims against the concave side
>of the board before sending it through the planer, but the planer has
>enough work to do just feeding and cutting a wide piece of hardwood.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the planer has enough work to do just
feeding and cutting a wide piece of hardwood". Removing the cup is
certainly no more strain on the planer--just a couple of extra passes,
at less than full load. Before passing on this approach, I strongly
encourage you to give it a try, even if on a junk SPF 1x10.
Particularly if cup is what you are dealing with--that is the easiest
form of warp to fix on the planer, IMHO. That is because your "sled"
doesn't need any rigidity along its length. A 12" MDF shelf from the
Borg is perfect for this. Just put your board on the carrier MDF,
concave side down, with a few spacers under the center (I'd run 1"
wide stock 1' long through the planer to get just the right thickness,
and put a spacer every 2' or 3' of board length, with each spacer
milled to the right thickness for its location.) Run this "package"
through your planer, taking light cuts near the end, until it is
planing full width. Then flip and plane the other side w/o the sled.
Then sticker it and wait to see how much bow returns, possibly in the
opposite direction. Then repeat. Or get it locked into the structure
of your project.
The second paragraph applies no matter how you remove the cup from a
wide board. And to a lesser extent, any warpage.
Someone else here mentioned that if you don't have structure to keep
the cup out, it is likely to return, even if the wood is perfectly
stable, just due to seasonal movement.
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:
>Phisherman wrote:
>
>> Flatten 12" boards with a planer. Create a straight edge with a
>> jointer. I have a DJ-20 which has 8" blades and a nice long feed
>> table, great for doors.
>
>One has to ask: If you are of the opinion that a jointer only need be
>used to create straight edges, and a planer for faces, then why do you
>have an 8" jointer?
>
>PK
What a silly question. Why, to joint the edges of VERY thick boards,
of course! <g>
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
"Paul Kierstead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> skipsizemore wrote:
>> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
>> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
>> Any guidance will be appreciated.
>
> Don't forget to budget for floor re-enforcements.
>
> PK
I agree with most of the replies that an 8" jointer would do just fine in
most shops. But if you insist on 12" look here:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?ItemNumber=G4178 I think its
pretty reasonable if a 12" jointer is what you really want. It even comes
with a free pair of push blocks.
IMHO even if I was dealing with stock that wide for a shelf I would rip it
just for strength and to help relieve any stress.
>
> My advice - use your mark one mod zero eyeballs , and maybe a wipe with
> mineral spirits to estimate "best looking" boards, and get them closer to
> manageable size before milling.
IMHO, this is good advice. smaller pieces mahine much more accurately.
Suppose you have an 8' board from which you want to make 3 30" shelves.
milling an 8' board flat and straight is actually quite tough (unless you
have pretty large equipment) and you will loose alot of material to a bow or
twist. Rough-cut to 32" and it's a snap on modest equipment and you will
have minimal loss of material.
This concept even applies to chopping up plywood. Full sheets are hard to
manage and can drift off slightly off course if they are not really well
supported.
BTW you can cheat and push your board through the planer for a light pass
before flattening to help you see what's going on with the grain.
-Steve
Stephen M writes:
>BTW you can cheat and push your board through the planer for a light pass
>before flattening to help you see what's going on with the grain.
Common practice, not cheating. It's called skip planing or hit and miss
planing.
Charlie Self
"One of the common denominators I have found is that expectations rise above
that which is expected." George W. Bush
Paul Kierstead <[email protected]> wrote:
>Phisherman wrote:
>> Use the proper tool for what you want to do. Using a jointer in
>> attempt to flatten a board will give you a board with an uneven
>> thickness.
>
>See, thats the thing. There is a reason they are called *thickness*
>planers. They are indeed real handy for making things consistent
>thickness. They do not flatten a board.
Just to be fair, they CAN flatten a board, even though that is not
their primary purpose. I'm sure you are referring to the fact that if
you have an 8/4 board 12" wide with a twist, repeated passes through a
planer will give you a thinner and thinner twisted board. (same with
cup or bow)
But if I were asked to flatten that board without my hand planes, my
13" planer would be the tool of choice. I would make a carrier (a box
beam the width of my planer and length of the workpiece), use wedges
(with double-stick tape) to provide support under the high corners and
edges of my workpiece, then run it through the planer. The carrier and
wedges will hopefully keep the rollers from flattening the piece, thus
keeping the planer from doing its job of cutting to uniform thickness.
Then once I have a surface planed parallel to my flat box-beam
reference surface, I can flip the board and use the planer as it was
intended to bring the board to uniform thickness.
So I would use a planer to flatten a board by jury-rigging a way to
keep it from doing its intended job!
--
Alex -- Replace "nospam" with "mail" to reply by email. Checked infrequently.
On 19 Jan 2005 14:38:33 -0800, "skipsizemore" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
>sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
>able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
>of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call the
>spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
>with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
>sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that is
>as wide as its knives are long.
>
>It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
>if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
>Any guidance will be appreciated.
Flatten 12" boards with a planer. Create a straight edge with a
jointer. I have a DJ-20 which has 8" blades and a nice long feed
table, great for doors.
Contrary to everyone else's opinion, i say go for it. Sure, they cost much
more, but also will handle wider stock. Personally, I've been going to
auctions and keeping an eye on classifieds for a larger jointer for months
now, >8". Eventually it'll happen. When i bought mine, all i could afford
was a 6" and, although it's a good machine, it didn't take long to realise
that a 12" would be more suited to my needs. My local lumber mill usually
has wide boards (heck, i have some left over oak >20" wide) in stock.
Although most shops cannot handle real wide stock without ripping it down,
IMO, ideally, the width of your jointer should match the width of your
planer. Sure'd be nice to be able to face a 12" wide board. --dave
"Paul Kierstead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> skipsizemore wrote:
>> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
>> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
>> Any guidance will be appreciated.
>
> Don't forget to budget for floor re-enforcements.
>
> PK
skipsizemore wrote:
> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
> of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call the
> spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
> with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
> sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that is
> as wide as its knives are long.
>
> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
> Any guidance will be appreciated.
>
Seems you're only considering one of the functions of a jointer and the
less common one at that.
Primarily, jointers are used to edge-joint edges of surfaced-two-sides
(S2S) lumber. This operation is typically in preparation for edge-gluing
two or more pieces together to make a wider surface. In this function, a
longer bed is better as you'll be able to remove the cup from longer boards.
For the function of face-jointing (the one you described) wider is
better, but a 6 or 8 inch wide jointer can handle 12 or 16 inch wide
boards. Also, unless you're starting with fallen trees, most stock is
typically in the 6"-8" range.
~Mark.
>
>>If you're
>>flattening the faces of boards on a regular basis, then it's a planer that
>>you'd want.
>
> No, it absolutely is not. A planer makes opposite surfaces of a board
> parallel. It does not make boards flat. For that, you need a jointer.
>
Of course you are right, but if you start with decent lumber a planer will
produce wood flat enough for shelves. (In all likelihood; he didn't tell us
anything about his shelves.)
I have a grizzly 12 inch jointer and the only way I can "justify" it is by
sawing my own lumber. If you use a buncha rough stock, then a bigger
jointer is better, you must have a dust system and 220 to run a jointer this
big. All the other problems with glue up, cup, etc can be worked around
well with a good 8 or 6 inch jointer. Its just a question of what you want.
imho
Schroeder
skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Wow, I'm surprised and really very pleased that my original post
> generated so much traffic. Let me clarify my situation somewhat. I
> realize that a new 12" jointer will run me at least $2k, and that it
> will require help to place, move, and power. I'm not independently
> wealthy, but I do believe in saving up and buying the tool that will do
> what I want and last me for a good long time.
>
> I do have a good 13" planer (Christmas present), and I've been very
> impressed with the way that it produces a finished plank from a flat,
> rough-sawn piece of lumber. But I'd like to be able to remove the cup
> that so often shows up in wider lumber, and the planer doesn't do much
> of that. You can, I've read, stick some shims against the concave side
> of the board before sending it through the planer, but the planer has
> enough work to do just feeding and cutting a wide piece of hardwood.
>
> I do build a lot of shelves and I'd like to start selling them, since
> quite a few folks have asked me to make them for them, and books are a
> big industry here in Charlottesville. I use a PC plate joiner and some
> clamps that I made myself (from 2x4's and threaded rod-they work great)
> to put them all together, but I'd like to avoid having to join two
> narrow pieces for the sides because 1. it's a bit of a pain, and 2. it
> doesn't look as nice even with two halves of the same original board,
> thanks to the kerf.
>
> If I can remove the cup from a wide board with an 8" jointer (and it
> sounds to me like I can) then obviously I'd rather save the extra
> thousand dollars for lumber, electricity, and food. 8^)
>
> Oh and, though I'm not trolling, I AM making a 7' by 30" bookcase out
> of walnut at present. I can get it from the local mill for $4-6 per
> b.f., which isn't too bad when I can find enough flat stock. Lowe's
> wants almost $4.50/bf for clear pine, so it's not all that much to pay
> for such gorgeous wood. I'm going to make the normally unseen back
> halves of some of the shelves out of a cheaper wood and join them with
> biscuits.
> Thanks very much for all the info; I'm going to read it all carefully.
>
It's possible to use a smaller joiner to flatten a wide board. In a pinch,
yes you can emove SAFETY Equipment and plane the right 6-8 inches until
flat. Then place on a mdf sled and run through a planer being supported by a
6-8 inch sled. Then flip oner and finish the first side with a planer.
Don't expect to plane both side of the same board parallel with just a
joiner. It takes both a planer and a joiner. 12" is rare in a machine but
grizzley has one.
"skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
> of which said you can remove the blade guard (or whatever you call the
> spring-loaded piece that pushes the stock against the fence) and work
> with boards up to nearly twice as large as the blade length. Other
> sources (several) state that the jointer will only handle stock that is
> as wide as its knives are long.
>
> It would be nice to get an 8-inch model if it will do what I need, but
> if not, I'll wait until I can afford a 12-inch.
> Any guidance will be appreciated.
>
skipsizemore wrote:
> If I can remove the cup from a wide board with an 8" jointer (and it
> sounds to me like I can) then obviously I'd rather save the extra
> thousand dollars for lumber, electricity, and food. 8^)
Well, a couple of things to consider:
- Usually, 12" wide boards are either not available, or only at a
serious premium, or crap. This is not always the case, though; you might
have a sweet deal
- Boards that wide are going to be a lot bigger PITA then you might
think, *especially* for shelves *if* those shelves are not in a dado (eg
adjustable shelving). You will joint an plane them, put them in the
bookcase and they won't be flat anymore. Wide boards are a non trivial
exercise to work with. I am willing to bet that in quite a few cases,
that shelves only sitting on pins could be jointed an planed several
times over quite a few days before they stay totally flat on their own.
> Oh and, though I'm not trolling, I AM making a 7' by 30" bookcase out
> of walnut at present. I can get it from the local mill for $4-6 per
> b.f., which isn't too bad when I can find enough flat stock. Lowe's
> wants almost $4.50/bf for clear pine, so it's not all that much to pay
> for such gorgeous wood.
It is an awesome price, especially if it comes 12"+ wide.
> I'm going to make the normally unseen back
> halves of some of the shelves out of a cheaper wood and join them with
> biscuits.
How are you attaching said backs? Solid wood backs can be ....
troublesome in the long run if they are fully glued on. Or even medium run.
PK
Woody wrote:
> For the function of face-jointing (the one you described) wider is
> better, but a 6 or 8 inch wide jointer can handle 12 or 16 inch wide
> boards.
Not properly, and with no way to select how the knives address the grain.
Jointing half of one side and turning the board to face joint the other
is simply not the same as properly face jointing the whole board.
Barry
On 20 Jan 2005 06:58:01 -0800, "skipsizemore" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Wow, I'm surprised and really very pleased that my original post
>generated so much traffic. Let me clarify my situation somewhat. I
>realize that a new 12" jointer will run me at least $2k, and that it
>will require help to place, move, and power. I'm not independently
>wealthy, but I do believe in saving up and buying the tool that will do
>what I want and last me for a good long time.
>
>I do have a good 13" planer (Christmas present), and I've been very
>impressed with the way that it produces a finished plank from a flat,
>rough-sawn piece of lumber. But I'd like to be able to remove the cup
>that so often shows up in wider lumber, and the planer doesn't do much
>of that. You can, I've read, stick some shims against the concave side
>of the board before sending it through the planer, but the planer has
>enough work to do just feeding and cutting a wide piece of hardwood.
here is where hand tools really come in. with a scrub plane you can
quickly get enough of the sup/twist/bow out of the board to run it
through the planer. a scrub plane will cost you $20 on ebay and an
hour or two of cleaning and sharpening. and it'll fit in a shoe box.
>
>I do build a lot of shelves and I'd like to start selling them, since
>quite a few folks have asked me to make them for them, and books are a
>big industry here in Charlottesville. I use a PC plate joiner and some
>clamps that I made myself (from 2x4's and threaded rod-they work great)
>to put them all together, but I'd like to avoid having to join two
>narrow pieces for the sides because 1. it's a bit of a pain, and 2. it
>doesn't look as nice even with two halves of the same original board,
>thanks to the kerf.
>
>If I can remove the cup from a wide board with an 8" jointer (and it
>sounds to me like I can) then obviously I'd rather save the extra
>thousand dollars for lumber, electricity, and food. 8^)
>
>Oh and, though I'm not trolling, I AM making a 7' by 30" bookcase out
>of walnut at present. I can get it from the local mill for $4-6 per
>b.f., which isn't too bad when I can find enough flat stock. Lowe's
>wants almost $4.50/bf for clear pine, so it's not all that much to pay
>for such gorgeous wood. I'm going to make the normally unseen back
>halves of some of the shelves out of a cheaper wood and join them with
>biscuits.
>Thanks very much for all the info; I'm going to read it all carefully.
you really should look into designs using hardwood veneered plywood
and solid edge banding and face frames.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>Use the proper tool for what you want to do. Using a jointer in
>attempt to flatten a board will give you a board with an uneven
>thickness.
Which is, of course, why you run the board through a thickness planer
afterwards.
> A jointer is no substitute for a planer.
Neither is a planer a substitute for a jointer.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
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You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
"skipsizemore" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hello, I'm looking to buy a jointer and, having never used one, I'm not
> sure what size to buy. I make a lot of shelves and so I'd like to be
> able to flatten 12" boards. I have read two conflicting sources, one
A jointer is typically used to flatten the edges of boards. If you're
flattening the faces of boards on a regular basis, then it's a planer that
you'd want. You can flatten boards on a jointer, but for the price of one
that could handle 12" boards, you could buy both a planer and a jointer that
would likely handle all your needs. For squaring the faces and edges of
stock, a planer and a jointer are often purchased as a pair.