Should I re-wire for 220 volts?

In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >BTW, I didn't see it as a pissing contest. I was trying to correct an
> error in
>> > Doug's post whereas he stated that a 1 HP motor
>> >draws a approx 6 amps.
>>
>> One last time...
>>
>> I DID NOT SAY THAT.
>
>Yes you did.

Al, you're a liar. You claim that I said that a 1HP motor draws 6A. That is a
lie. I never said that. And you know it.
>>
>> I said that 1HP is approximately equivalent to 6A at 120V, and I have
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> explained that I said that as a means of pointing out the absurdity of
>> supposing that the OP's motor might draw over 15A.
>>
>And here you say it again!!!

That does not say that 1 HP motor draws six amps, and you know it.
>
>One last time... 1HP is NOT approximately equivalent to 6A at 120V.

The hell it isn't. It IS approximately the same amount of power, which is all
I ever claimed. I never claimed that a 1HP motor only draws 6A. Those are
words that you put in my mouth. I've repeatedly corrected your mistaken
assumptions, and you continue to repeat your false statement *after* your
mistake has been explained to you. The inescapable conclusion is that you're
either a dolt or a liar. Either way, I've had enough.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.
>
> So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
> apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.
>

I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100% efficiency?

In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC, depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.

However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.

--
Al Reid

How will I know when I get there...
If I don't know where I'm going?

"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Eddie Munster wrote:
> >
> > It may need a new switch, one for 220.
>
> For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
> least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.

A switch for 220VAC should be, in the US of A, a 2 pole switch. That is, both hot, ungrounded conductors should be switched. For
the same reason the breaker is a 2 pole device.

--
Al Reid

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know
for sure that just ain't so." --- Mark Twain

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.
> >>
> >> So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
> >> apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.
> >>
> >
> >I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100%
> > efficiency?
>
> That was the original poster's term, not mine. I assume he meant that it draws
> 1HP of power.
> >
> >In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC,
> > depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.
>
> A motor with 1HP output, drawing 15A, isn't very efficient (around 40%). I
> think most electric motors do a little better than that.
>
> >However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient
> > motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.
>
> The point is that a 1HP motor isn't going to pull "over 15A".
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug,

If we consider Service Factor along with Efficiency and Power Factor, a 1 HP motor will pull between 10 and 15 Amps at 115 VAC.

However, the main point is that a 1 HP motor will NEVER pull 6 FLA. That calculation was just plain wrong.

HTH,


--
Al Reid

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know
for sure that just ain't so." --- Mark Twain

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:AQ%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >If we consider Service Factor along with Efficiency and Power Factor, a 1 HP
> > motor will pull between 10 and 15 Amps at 115 VAC.
>
> No argument there. My claim was that it wouldn't pull "over 15A".
> >
> >However, the main point is that a 1 HP motor will NEVER pull 6 FLA.
>
> I didn't say that it would. All I meant was that since 1HP = approx 6A at
> 120V, it's absurd to suppose that a 1HP motor is likely to pull over 15A.
>

Doug: Here is where you are wrong. No 1HP motor is rated at approx 6A at 120 VAC. PERIOD. However, if you want to state that one
theoretical or mechanical horsepower is equal to 746 watts, that would be a different story all together. As soon as you express it
in Amps, you have to take efficiency, power factor and perhaps service factor into account.

You are correct that it is unlikeky that a 1 HP motor will be rated at greater than 15 FLA, BUT that is different from saying that a
1 HP motor = approx 6 Amps. Do you see the difference?


> > That calculation was just plain wrong.
>
> Nothing wrong with the calculation, just with the interpretation of its
> meaning. Hopefully I've clarified what I meant by it.
>

See above.

> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"George" <george@least> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <lK3_d.5705$aS5.298@trndny05>, "Al Reid"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > No, that is not what it says there. I have already explained,
> _repeatedly_,
> > that my point was to show that there's _no_way_ that a 1HP motor is going
> to
> > pull "over 15A" -- but you haven't been listening.
> > >
> > >Sheesh... Just admit you ware wrong in the above statement, Is it
> really
> > >that hard?
> >
> > Sheesh. Just admit that you got a wild hair up your arse, and haven't
> bothered
> > to read any of my subsequent posts. Enough, already.
>
> Arrive at a domestic, or a urinating contest, and you end up as the tree,
> but there's truth in both positions.
>
> http://www.iprocessmart.com/leeson/leeson_singlephase_article.htm
>
> Pretty interesting, though not for swaying the convinced....
>
>

Here are most, if not all of the formulas and calculations one will ever need when working with AC motors.

http://www.reliance.com/mtr/flaclcmn.htm

BTW, I didn't see it as a pissing contest. I was trying to correct an error in Doug's post whereas he stated that a 1 HP motor
draws a approx 6 amps. If you look at the OP's follow up, he states that his 1 HP motor is rated at 12.5 FLA. That confirms the
point I was trying to make that there is a difference between theoretical horsepower and actual power consumption. In retrospect, I
believe that Doug was misled by the OP's claim that he had a true 1 HP motor. The OP used true in the context of some manufacturers
claims of a 6 peak HP unit that really only has a 2 HP motor installed.

--
Al Reid

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >BTW, I didn't see it as a pissing contest. I was trying to correct an error in
> > Doug's post whereas he stated that a 1 HP motor
> >draws a approx 6 amps.
>
> One last time...
>
> I DID NOT SAY THAT.

Yes you did.
>
> I said that 1HP is approximately equivalent to 6A at 120V, and I have
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> explained that I said that as a means of pointing out the absurdity of
> supposing that the OP's motor might draw over 15A.
>
And here you say it again!!!

One last time... 1HP is NOT approximately equivalent to 6A at 120V. The OP stated in the follow-up thread that it draws 12.5A.

> Perhaps you should go back and re-read the posts, making a particular effort
> to read what is _actually_there_ and _no_more_. You've managed to read
> something that was not there. Time to admit that, and move on. Or just drop
> it.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug,

I went back are re-read the entire thread and have concluded that it speaks for itself. I am happy to let the reader decide for
themselves.

Later,

--

Al Reid

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >BTW, I didn't see it as a pissing contest. I was trying to correct an
> > error in
> >> > Doug's post whereas he stated that a 1 HP motor
> >> >draws a approx 6 amps.
> >>
> >> One last time...
> >>
> >> I DID NOT SAY THAT.
> >
> >Yes you did.
>
> Al, you're a liar. You claim that I said that a 1HP motor draws 6A. That is a
> lie. I never said that. And you know it.
> >>
> >> I said that 1HP is approximately equivalent to 6A at 120V, and I have
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> explained that I said that as a means of pointing out the absurdity of
> >> supposing that the OP's motor might draw over 15A.
> >>
> >And here you say it again!!!
>
> That does not say that 1 HP motor draws six amps, and you know it.
> >
> >One last time... 1HP is NOT approximately equivalent to 6A at 120V.
>
> The hell it isn't. It IS approximately the same amount of power, which is all
> I ever claimed. I never claimed that a 1HP motor only draws 6A. Those are
> words that you put in my mouth. I've repeatedly corrected your mistaken
> assumptions, and you continue to repeat your false statement *after* your
> mistake has been explained to you. The inescapable conclusion is that you're
> either a dolt or a liar. Either way, I've had enough.
>

Good!! Quit while your behind. No need to continue to make a fool of yourself. My advice would be to do yourself a favor and stop
answering electrical related questions. You just continue to embarrass yourself.

And I've had enough of your childishness myself, so I'm through as well.

--

Al Reid

>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <1N4_d.75394$Ze3.17749@attbi_s51>,
David Merrill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Motor rated? How is that typically identified on the switch packaging? I
>may have to ask the electrical department guy :-)

Not to "belabor the obvious", but it has a _HP_ rating on it, in addition
to the 'amps' rating(s).

Frequently there will be a load (Amps) rating at 120 VAC, a different (Amps)
rating for 240VAC, *and* a HP rating.

You don't exceed _either_ the HP rating, or the relevant Amps limit.

"Why" you ask? simple. motors have *large* inrush currents when starting
up. Leads to arcing, and pitting of contacts not designed to handle the load.
leads to premature switching device failure.


>
>David Merrill
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>...snip
>> You may not be able to find one that's an exact form-and-fit replacement
>for
>> your existing SPST switch, but actually, you shouldn't have any trouble at
>all
>> finding a DPST switch at HD or Lowe's.
>>
>
>

In article <[email protected]>,
LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:28:59 GMT, "David Merrill"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>And there we have it, after only 63 posts and counting!
>>
>>May I be allowed an attempt to summarize:
>
>> - possibly improved life of jointer motor
>> (this one still hasn't been clarified to my satisfaction)
>
>I don't remember that being claimed, but I can dispense with it
>quickly (I thought I already had in my original response). From the
>standpoint of the motor windings, it's always running on 120V. Either
>the windings are wired in parallel (120V supply) or the windings are
>wired in series (240V). Since the motor windings are always seeing
>120V it can't possibly have any different life expectancy based on the
>input voltage.

Well, things aren't quite that simple. <grin>

"All else being equal" -- things like distance from the main breaker
panel, gauge of the distribution wire, etc. -- and which I must note
are usually _not_ equal ;

The 240v powered motor tends not to 'bog down' as much / as fast as the
120V powered one. This is attributable to the lower 'line losses' upstream
of the motor, resulting in what is effectively a "stiffer" power supply.

"Amps drawn" goes up as the load goes up, with the supply voltage remaining
constant.

*IF* the supply voltage does _not_ remain constant, but 'sags', the amps
drawn goes up even *more*, to compensate for the 'sag'.

A result of 'all of the above", plus some other things: voltage sag is
more pronounced and longer duration at 120V than 240V.

Such "parasitic' losses in the motor go up as the *square* of the current.

This _can_ have an adverse affect on motor longevity.

>>This is what I understand based on all these posts. Guys, if I'm still
>>missing or mis-stating something, take your best shot :-)
>
>I think you have probably summarized it accurately with the above
>noted exception.
>
>--
>LRod
>
>Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
>Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
>http://www.woodbutcher.net

In article <[email protected]>,
LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:03:52 -0000, [email protected]
>(Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>I don't remember that being claimed, but I can dispense with it
>>>quickly (I thought I already had in my original response). From the
>>>standpoint of the motor windings, it's always running on 120V. Either
>>>the windings are wired in parallel (120V supply) or the windings are
>>>wired in series (240V). Since the motor windings are always seeing
>>>120V it can't possibly have any different life expectancy based on the
>>>input voltage.
>>
>>Well, things aren't quite that simple. <grin>
>>
>>"All else being equal" -- things like distance from the main breaker
>>panel, gauge of the distribution wire, etc. -- and which I must note
>>are usually _not_ equal ;
>
>Points I have often made about 120V vs 240V, some in this thread.
>
>> The 240v powered motor tends not to 'bog down' as much / as fast as the
>> 120V powered one. This is attributable to the lower 'line losses' upstream
>> of the motor, resulting in what is effectively a "stiffer" power supply.
>
>"Stiff" being exactly the term I used in this thread when describing
>the supply issues.

Aw shucks, we're having an *agreement*!!! Dammit!

>> "Amps drawn" goes up as the load goes up, with the supply voltage remaining
>> constant.
>>
>> *IF* the supply voltage does _not_ remain constant, but 'sags', the amps
>> drawn goes up even *more*, to compensate for the 'sag'.
>
>Which is not stiff...

"All things are relative". <grin>

>> A result of 'all of the above", plus some other things: voltage sag is
>> more pronounced and longer duration at 120V than 240V.
>>
>> Such "parasitic' losses in the motor go up as the *square* of the current.
>
>Yes, I referred to that earlier in this thread. I described it as
>voltage drop is four times higher at 120V vs 240V.
>
>> This _can_ have an adverse affect on motor longevity.
>
>I didn't connect those dots, but it's also not necessarily a realistic
>expectation, either. I can't imagine trying to quantify the
>difference.

Quantitative difference depends totally on the *precise* circumstances
involved.

Given _sufficiently_detailed_ information a quantitative evaluation of
reduction in life expectancy is possible. The thought of actually _getting_
said detail in a USENET posting is laughable. :) It is probably *not*
realistic to expect anyone to have, or be able to produce, sufficiently
detailed source data for such an analysis of a real-world situation.

That said, everything mentioned works _against_ life-expectancy at 120V,
relative to life-expectancy at 240V. 'Best possible case' scenario is that
120V operational life is "as long as" 240V life. If there are _any_
differences, they will be in favor of the 240V operation. "Empirical"
data, from motors in near-continuous use, under varying, but peaking fairly
heavily, load, indicates a 'few' percentage points of life expectancy in
favor of the higher-voltage operation.

I'm taking issue _only_ with the "_can't_possibly_ have _any_ effect on life
expectancy" part of your recent statement.

I'd agree totally with "*probably* won't have any -significant- effect..."

'Possible/probable minor increase in motor longevity' would, it seems to me,
qualify as "one more reason" to favor 240V over 120V wiring; *not*, however,
a 'compelling reason' to change, in and of itself.

Motor rated? How is that typically identified on the switch packaging? I
may have to ask the electrical department guy :-)

David Merrill

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>...snip
> You may not be able to find one that's an exact form-and-fit replacement
for
> your existing SPST switch, but actually, you shouldn't have any trouble at
all
> finding a DPST switch at HD or Lowe's.
>

In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:AQ%[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >If we consider Service Factor along with Efficiency and Power Factor, a 1 HP
>> > motor will pull between 10 and 15 Amps at 115 VAC.
>>
>> No argument there. My claim was that it wouldn't pull "over 15A".
>> >
>> >However, the main point is that a 1 HP motor will NEVER pull 6 FLA.
>>
>> I didn't say that it would. All I meant was that since 1HP = approx 6A at
>> 120V, it's absurd to suppose that a 1HP motor is likely to pull over 15A.
>>
>
>Doug: Here is where you are wrong. No 1HP motor is rated at approx 6A at 120
> VAC. PERIOD.

I didn't say that it was. Please read what I wrote.

>However, if you want to state that one
>theoretical or mechanical horsepower is equal to 746 watts, that would be a
> different story all together. As soon as you express it
>in Amps, you have to take efficiency, power factor and perhaps service factor
> into account.

Of course - but that doesn't mean that a 1HP motor will draw over 15A at 120V.
>
>You are correct that it is unlikeky that a 1 HP motor will be rated at greater
> than 15 FLA, BUT that is different from saying that a
>1 HP motor = approx 6 Amps. Do you see the difference?

I see the difference just fine. Please un-knot your knickers long enough to
understand what I've written. The point is that since 1HP = approximately the
same power as 6A at 120V, it's just goofy to think that a 1HP motor is going
to draw two and a half times that much current in normal operation.

>> > That calculation was just plain wrong.
>>
>> Nothing wrong with the calculation, just with the interpretation of its
>> meaning. Hopefully I've clarified what I meant by it.
>>
>
>See above.

See above.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kim wrote:
>
>>
>> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:40:45 -0800, "Kim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?
>>>>
>>>>IEEE, NEC, short circuit and load flow studies, breaker/device
>>>>coordinations.
>>>
>>> You can blindly claim all the initialed documents you want, but cite
>>> just one specific paragraph in any reputable regulatory document that
>>> supports your statement: "[m]aximum breaker size 15A as your motor is
>>> only about 8A at 220V."
>>>
>>> That's pure nonsense, and I'll be the first to apologize ot you were
>>> you to come up with something. Of course that's a safe promise,
>>> because you not only can't, but you won't.
>>>
>>> Local AHJs don't count as their specific requirements are not germane
>>> to the discussion, but I'd be happy to see them if they do exist.
>>>
>>> --
>>> LRod
>>>
>>> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>>>
>>> http://www.woodbutcher.net
>>
>> Here is a portion of your statement in context as related to the above:
>>
>> ">Maximum breaker size 15A as your motor is only about 8A at 220V.
>>
>> Where do you get that from? And if there were some sort of
>> relationship to breaker size and load demand, why would 15A breaker
>> with an 8A load be okay but not 20A or 30A breaker?"
>>
>> NEC Table 430-152, dependent on the motor type, the inverse time
>> breakers
>> could go either 150%, 200% or 250% of motor load. In other words, if the
>> motor has no code letter, for example, you could go up to a 20A breaker
>> based on 8A motor running nameplate load. If the restriction falls on
>> 200%
>> or 150%, then 15A CB only. But as a general practice the lowest breaker
>> setting should be used, hence 15A. There is no reason why, from a
>> protection point of view, you would want to use an 20A, 30A or larger
>> breaker where a 15A breaker would do. 15A CB is what I would use.
>
> I think you're confusing code requirements for permanently installed
> machinery with code requirements for portable tools.

OK you got me, but the information Table 430-152 should apply, although not
mandatory for portable tools as you suggested, as motor and breaker
characteristic don't change or care if the installation is permanent or not.
For sure motor inrush current was one of the reasons for this table perhaps
also fire and electrical faults from over sized breakers - who knows what
the historical reasons were for the NEC panel decisions but you can be sure
it has much to do with safety. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
All I'm saying was the best protection for this motor is a 15A circuit
breaker based on the OP's situation. (I've used "maximum' and perhaps that
was a wrong word choice.)


>
> There is no reason, from a protection point of view, why you would want to
> call an electrician and have him remove a perfectly good 30 amp breaker
> and
> the associated 30 amp receptacle and replace it with a 15 amp breaker and
> 15 amp receptacle just because you are plugging in a saw instead of a
> dryer
> for example.
>

Sure from a protection point of view a 30A breaker doesn't see the same long
time overcurrent or instantaneous trip points as a 15A breaker. In other
words, the 30A breaker doesn't see the 1hp motor as well as a 15A breaker
and, therefore, you get better protection with a smaller breaker.

Just a question, not an argument: don't you still need to change the 30A
breaker to GFI if its now used for both dryer and portable tool(s)?






>
>
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

on 3/16/2005 12:58 PM LRod said the following:
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:16:57 GMT, Unquestionably Confused
> <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>>I didn't think it had a DPST switch but now I'm curious enough to check
>>and see. As I mentioned, I think it's a good idea but wasn't sure that
>>it was required in that setting.
>
>
> I also switched a 1972 Sears RAS to 240V and I guarantee I didn't
> (haven't) touch[ed] the switch. I can only assume that it was a DPST
> to begin with. I never looked. But the instructions only related to
> the leads in the motor.

What do you wanna bet we're talking about the very same RAS? Nice
machine AFAIC even if it was subject to a recall whereby they'll give
you $100 for the motor unit leaving you with a downpayment on a new saw<g>

I never gave the DPST/SPST a thought. Like you, I just RTFM and rolled
happily along. Made the switch about 20 years ago, after I built the
new shop.

Still curious so I'm going to have to check into it.

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:55:57 -0000, [email protected]
> (Robert Bonomi) wrote:
>
>
> >I'm taking issue _only_ with the "_can't_possibly_ have _any_ effect on
life
> >expectancy" part of your recent statement.
>
> I'm going to have to quit couching my sentiments in absolute terms.
> That's the second hammering on that score I've taken in the last
> couple of months. Of course, I was absolutely, er, uh, pretty darn
> correct in the other one.
>

Ya gotta remember - if there is a point of minutia that can be taken up
here, it will be taken up. And it will be argued as if the very fate of
mankind rested on the matter.
--

-Mike-
[email protected]

toller wrote:

...

> It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;
> no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15a
> circuit is not an appropriate analogy.
...

Precisely why for a physical reason do you think this is so?

The purpose of the breaker is to protect the wiring, not the device.

As long as the breaker is not oversized for the wiring, there's no
problem.

Eddie Munster wrote:
>
> It may need a new switch, one for 220.

For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.

Al Reid wrote:
>
> "Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > Eddie Munster wrote:
> > >
> > > It may need a new switch, one for 220.
> >
> > For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
> > least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.
>
> A switch for 220VAC should be, in the US of A, a 2 pole switch. That is, both hot, ungrounded conductors should be switched. For
> the same reason the breaker is a 2 pole device.
>

Doh...you're right. I'd <assume> but it would be worthwhile for OP to
check that if it's shipped w/ a switchable motor and is
recommended/discussed that it would have appropriate switch too, but
that wouldn't <necessarily> be so, granted.

(Think it would indicate a Chinese POS, but that's pretty common these
days... :( )

Doug Miller wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
> >Eddie Munster wrote:
> >>
> >> It may need a new switch, one for 220.
> >
> >For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
> >least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.
>
> Maybe so... but that's not what he meant. Switches intended for use with 120V
> typically disconnect only the hot conductor. 240V has *two* hot conductors,
> and so a double-pole switch is required, to disconnect *both* hot conductors
> at once.


Yeah, Al already beat me up over my slipup...had a toller moment
there... :(

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <lK3_d.5705$aS5.298@trndny05>, "Al Reid"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> No, that is not what it says there. I have already explained,
_repeatedly_,
> that my point was to show that there's _no_way_ that a 1HP motor is going
to
> pull "over 15A" -- but you haven't been listening.
> >
> >Sheesh... Just admit you ware wrong in the above statement, Is it
really
> >that hard?
>
> Sheesh. Just admit that you got a wild hair up your arse, and haven't
bothered
> to read any of my subsequent posts. Enough, already.

Arrive at a domestic, or a urinating contest, and you end up as the tree,
but there's truth in both positions.

http://www.iprocessmart.com/leeson/leeson_singlephase_article.htm

Pretty interesting, though not for swaying the convinced....

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:39:32 GMT, Unquestionably Confused
<[email protected]> wrote:


>If what you say is true, how is that manufacturer's of power tools that
>are easily converted from 110v to 220v are so converted by merely
>switching the connection of a pair of leads in the machine? They
>certainly are not switching both sides of the connection.

Actually, they areI can't speak for all tools and all manufacturers,
but both my Delta bandsaw switch and my Jet switch (which I bought to
use on my table saw--240V) are DPST switches, and in 120V use switch
both the hot and the neutral, and, with no further rewiring necessary,
will switch both hots of a 240V supply.

In fact, I can't think of a reason why a manufacturer of power tools
easily converted from 120V to 240V wouldn't do it that way.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Just wondering if Mark Cooper ever got his jointer going or if he was
too busy alternating between laughing and getting frustrated with the
whole flamejob that was going on over a simple question. lol

How'd it work out for ya, Mark?

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:40:45 -0800, "Kim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?
>>
>>IEEE, NEC, short circuit and load flow studies, breaker/device
>>coordinations.
>
> You can blindly claim all the initialed documents you want, but cite
> just one specific paragraph in any reputable regulatory document that
> supports your statement: "[m]aximum breaker size 15A as your motor is
> only about 8A at 220V."
>
> That's pure nonsense, and I'll be the first to apologize ot you were
> you to come up with something. Of course that's a safe promise,
> because you not only can't, but you won't.
>
> Local AHJs don't count as their specific requirements are not germane
> to the discussion, but I'd be happy to see them if they do exist.
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite


>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

Here is a portion of your statement in context as related to the above:

">Maximum breaker size 15A as your motor is only about 8A at 220V.

Where do you get that from? And if there were some sort of
relationship to breaker size and load demand, why would 15A breaker
with an 8A load be okay but not 20A or 30A breaker?"

NEC Table 430-152, dependent on the motor type, the inverse time breakers
could go either 150%, 200% or 250% of motor load. In other words, if the
motor has no code letter, for example, you could go up to a 20A breaker
based on 8A motor running nameplate load. If the restriction falls on 200%
or 150%, then 15A CB only. But as a general practice the lowest breaker
setting should be used, hence 15A. There is no reason why, from a protection
point of view, you would want to use an 20A, 30A or larger breaker where a
15A breaker would do. 15A CB is what I would use.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:51:20 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
>small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.

Why not? Do you have a bunch of teeny tiny 1A breakers to power your
clock radio and other small devices with? Someone posted similar
nonsense a whlle back saying that because Grizzly recommended a 20A
line for their blurpfl that it would void the warranty to power it
with a 30A line. I recommended that person refrain from giving
electrical advice, obviously lacking a fundamental understanding of
it.

>You basically want to avoid running two tools on the same circuit (at the
>same time of course).

Why is that? Do you have separate circuits for your food processor and
stand mixer? Geez, where do you guys come up with this stuff?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

on 3/16/2005 8:57 AM Al Reid said the following:
> "Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>Eddie Munster wrote:
>>
>>>It may need a new switch, one for 220.
>>
>>For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
>>least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.
>
>
> A switch for 220VAC should be, in the US of A, a 2 pole switch. That is, both hot, ungrounded conductors should be switched. For
> the same reason the breaker is a 2 pole device.
>

Perhaps in an external switch, i.e. wall switch or something like that.

What you suggest makes sense for safety but...

If what you say is true, how is that manufacturer's of power tools that
are easily converted from 110v to 220v are so converted by merely
switching the connection of a pair of leads in the machine? They
certainly are not switching both sides of the connection.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:03:52 -0000, [email protected]
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

>>I don't remember that being claimed, but I can dispense with it
>>quickly (I thought I already had in my original response). From the
>>standpoint of the motor windings, it's always running on 120V. Either
>>the windings are wired in parallel (120V supply) or the windings are
>>wired in series (240V). Since the motor windings are always seeing
>>120V it can't possibly have any different life expectancy based on the
>>input voltage.
>
>Well, things aren't quite that simple. <grin>
>
>"All else being equal" -- things like distance from the main breaker
>panel, gauge of the distribution wire, etc. -- and which I must note
>are usually _not_ equal ;

Points I have often made about 120V vs 240V, some in this thread.

> The 240v powered motor tends not to 'bog down' as much / as fast as the
> 120V powered one. This is attributable to the lower 'line losses' upstream
> of the motor, resulting in what is effectively a "stiffer" power supply.

"Stiff" being exactly the term I used in this thread when describing
the supply issues.

> "Amps drawn" goes up as the load goes up, with the supply voltage remaining
> constant.
>
> *IF* the supply voltage does _not_ remain constant, but 'sags', the amps
> drawn goes up even *more*, to compensate for the 'sag'.

Which is not stiff...

> A result of 'all of the above", plus some other things: voltage sag is
> more pronounced and longer duration at 120V than 240V.
>
> Such "parasitic' losses in the motor go up as the *square* of the current.

Yes, I referred to that earlier in this thread. I described it as
voltage drop is four times higher at 120V vs 240V.

> This _can_ have an adverse affect on motor longevity.

I didn't connect those dots, but it's also not necessarily a realistic
expectation, either. I can't imagine trying to quantify the
difference.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:04:13 -0800, "Kim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>The difference for 220V is half the conductor size with half the current
>draw. In other words with the same conductor size you could run your jointer
>at twice the distance with 220V.

Don't throw conductor size in the argument when debating 120V vs 240V
operation. If one is going to run 240V so one can use smaller
conductors, any possible advantage is lost, as you imply with your
"twice the distance" argument.

>Don't connect the jointer to the 30A circuit.

Why not?

>Maximum breaker size 15A as your motor is only about 8A at 220V.

Where do you get that from? And if there were some sort of
relationship to breaker size and load demand, why would 15A breaker
with an 8A load be okay but not 20A or 30A breaker?

The load demand has absolutely nothing to do with supply size unless
the load is more than the supply capacity.

Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:

>If we consider Service Factor along with Efficiency and Power Factor, a 1 HP
> motor will pull between 10 and 15 Amps at 115 VAC.

No argument there. My claim was that it wouldn't pull "over 15A".
>
>However, the main point is that a 1 HP motor will NEVER pull 6 FLA.

I didn't say that it would. All I meant was that since 1HP = approx 6A at
120V, it's absurd to suppose that a 1HP motor is likely to pull over 15A.

> That calculation was just plain wrong.

Nothing wrong with the calculation, just with the interpretation of its
meaning. Hopefully I've clarified what I meant by it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I had the local power utility repair a downed power line once and they
>accidentally reversed the phasing, which in turn destroyed a 15 HP 220V 3ph
>Ingersol Rand air compressor I operated at work (caused it to run backwards and
>the oil pump didn't pick up oil like it should).

Ouch. I hope they paid for repairs.
>
>Now, many years later, I'm dealing with 220V single phase power at the house.
>Does it make any difference which [hot] conductor goes to which blade on a 220V plug?

Not at all.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Al:

Not arguing with you... but... See below.

Al Reid wrote:
> "Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:423847A8=
[email protected]...
>=20
>>Eddie Munster wrote:
>>
>>>It may need a new switch, one for 220.
>>
>>For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
>>least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.
>=20
>=20
> A switch for 220VAC should be, in the US of A, a 2 pole switch. That i=
s, both hot, ungrounded conductors should be switched. For
> the same reason the breaker is a 2 pole device.
>=20


You are absolutely correct in that this would be a "good thing" -- is it =

indeed the law? Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it is a=20
requirement... LOL

You twigged me because I recently installed a thermostat for a baseboard =

heater... It was (from the original installation) single pole. The newer =

thermostats I bought were indeed double-pole -- but I could have bought=20
single pole style thermostats. All styles were UL and CSA approved for=20
use in Canada or the USA... I made a mental note to replace it on the=20
next go-round -- but I did not like using it it -- it was expedient=20
though. (Expediency is usually the first step down the path to something =

falling out of the sky... I Know.)

The DPST switch is indeed smarter (safer) you are right.




--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

> Now, many years later, I'm dealing with 220V single phase power at the
> house.
> Does it make any difference which conductor goes to which blade on a 220V
> plug? Obviously the ground goes to the round prong but there are the two
> remaining blades: one oriented vertically; the other hortizontally.
>
No, 3 phase has to hit the motor in the right sequence. 240v is symetrical,
so the sequence is the same either way.

In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>BTW, I didn't see it as a pissing contest. I was trying to correct an error in
> Doug's post whereas he stated that a 1 HP motor
>draws a approx 6 amps.

One last time...

I DID NOT SAY THAT.

I said that 1HP is approximately equivalent to 6A at 120V, and I have
explained that I said that as a means of pointing out the absurdity of
supposing that the OP's motor might draw over 15A.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read the posts, making a particular effort
to read what is _actually_there_ and _no_more_. You've managed to read
something that was not there. Time to admit that, and move on. Or just drop
it.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:51:20 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
>>>small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.
>>
>> Why not? Do you have a bunch of teeny tiny 1A breakers to power your
>> clock radio and other small devices with? Someone posted similar
>> nonsense a whlle back saying that because Grizzly recommended a 20A
>> line for their blurpfl that it would void the warranty to power it
>> with a 30A line. I recommended that person refrain from giving
>> electrical advice, obviously lacking a fundamental understanding of
>> it.
>>
>If you read my post, I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.
>It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;

There's nothing wrong with that at all. The breaker is there to protect the
wiring, not what's plugged into it.

>no one would argue with that except to be a jerk.

Wrong again -- people are arguing with that because it's a false statement.

>The 1a clock on a 15a
>circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

Of course it is. Only someone who doesn't understand the purpose of circuit
breakers would think otherwise.

>
>>>You basically want to avoid running two tools on the same circuit (at the
>>>same time of course).
>>
>> Why is that? Do you have separate circuits for your food processor and
>> stand mixer? Geez, where do you guys come up with this stuff?
>>
>Kitchens are required to have two circuits because it is not a good idea to
>run a food processor and stand mixer on the same circuit at the same time.

Where do you come up with ideas like this? What's the problem with running a
7A food processor and a 5A stand mixer simultaneously on a 20A circuit? A
toaster and a microwave together, yes, that could be a problem, because each
could be pulling over 10A, but there's no problem at all with operating *many*
small devices simultaneously on the same circuit, as long as the combined
current draw does not exceed the capacity of the circuit.

>If you only have one line it is okay if necessary, but only a moron wouldn't
>try to avoid it.

Only a moron, or someone who doesn't understand electricity, would think it
has to be avoided at all costs.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

And there we have it, after only 63 posts and counting!

May I be allowed an attempt to summarize:

If you convert to 220 volts by properly rewiring the motor, properly
connecting it to your 30 amp outlet, and if the wire to that outlet is
properly sized for 220 volts/30 amps and the outlet's distance from the
breaker panel, and if the circuit isn't loaded down with other power
consuming devices you haven't told us about, electrical theory and practical
observation indicates that you can expect to benefit from:

- your jointer coming up to speed more quickly after switching it on

- less likelihood of bogging down on (overly?) heavy cuts

- no dimming of shop and/or household lighting when jointer is switched
on or bogs down

- possibly improved life of jointer motor
(this one still hasn't been clarified to my satisfaction)

Compared to an alternative 120 volt, properly sized, dedicated circuit, the
improvements gained by a 220 volt conversion may not be so dramatic as when
the comparison is made to the usual 120 volt shared household circuit.

You should NOT expect to see

- less heat buildup (lower temperature) in the jointer motor

- greater maximum power from the jointer motor

- less use of electricity

You should verify that the jointer switch is of the DPST (double pole,
single throw) type and is motor rated.

This is what I understand based on all these posts. Guys, if I'm still
missing or mis-stating something, take your best shot :-)

David Merrill



"Mark Cooper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1110945174.a3c2fd1b1ee0dcec10c4ff2019b0490e@teranews...
> I just acquired a new 6" jointer...the Craftsman which is made by Orion.
It
> has a (true) 1 HP motor and comes pre-wired for 110, but can be easily
> rewired for 220. My questions are:
>
> 1. What is the advantage of wiring for 220 vs. 110? Different Websites
say
> different things...some say the motor will run cooler, some say it will
run
> "better" (not defined!), some say it makes no difference whatsoever.
> Opinions?
>
> 2. The 220 drop in my basement is the type with two straight prongs (at
an
> angle) and one L-shaped. The L-shaped prong carries the neutral. (It's a
> 30-amp "dryer outlet.") The jointer's manual says I must connect the
ground
> wire to a true ground. My question is...if I connect the ground wire to a
> neutral instead of a true ground, am I still properly grounding the tool?
>
> Total newbie here, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Mark
>
>

>
> Any particular reason I haven't seen mention of the need for 'motor rated'
> switches brought up in this go-around on 110/220 volt conversions?

We assumed that you knew?


>
> David Merrill
>

I used a light switch in a motor for a while - it makes a lovely snap
when you turn it to the on position. Guess I better not do any finishing
till I get the right switch eh? (Just in case I get absent minded -- not
that I'm likely to repeat the error.)


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

In article <[email protected]>, Will <[email protected]> wrote:
>You are absolutely correct in that this would be a "good thing" -- is it
>indeed the law? Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it is a
>requirement... LOL

Whether it's required or not is irrelevant: to do otherwise is to create a
potential, and entirely unnecessary, safety hazard.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <lK3_d.5705$aS5.298@trndny05>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <uZ0_d.5826$FB6.1115@trndny09>, "Al Reid"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >I guess I really shouldn't expect you to admit you are wrong. You are,
>> >however, either ignorant of the facts or just don't want to admit you
>made a
>> >mistake. As I said in my first response to you statement that a 1 HP
>motor
>> >draws approx. 6A, please post a link to where I can buy some of them,
>> >because I can save a quite few bucks on my electric bill if I replace all
>of
>> >my inefficient AC motors with those 100% efficient ones you must use.
>>
>> And I guess I shouldn't expect you to admit that you've invested a lot of
>> energy refuting something I never said.
>>
>
>This all started with you replying to the following:
>
>>Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v. <
>
> with:
>
>>So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
>apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.<
>
>See it's in black and white. You clearly state that a 1HP motor draws ~6A
>at 120VAC.

No, that is not what it says there. I have already explained, _repeatedly_,
that my point was to show that there's _no_way_ that a 1HP motor is going to
pull "over 15A" -- but you haven't been listening.
>
>Sheesh... Just admit you ware wrong in the above statement, Is it really
>that hard?

Sheesh. Just admit that you got a wild hair up your arse, and haven't bothered
to read any of my subsequent posts. Enough, already.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

The on/off toggle switch in my 110/220 volt convertible Delta Dust
Collector, mentioned in my first post, above, has one wire in, one wire out
and one conductive rocker connecting the two, making it a SPST switch. I
think the lawyers and 'value engineers' have been at work; this tool, at
least, is not so "easily converted" without first consulting Delta's service
facility to obtain a proper switch. It doesn't look like something one is
likely to find at HD.

Any particular reason I haven't seen mention of the need for 'motor rated'
switches brought up in this go-around on 110/220 volt conversions?

David Merrill


"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Actually, they areI can't speak for all tools and all manufacturers,
> but both my Delta bandsaw switch and my Jet switch (which I bought to
> use on my table saw--240V) are DPST switches, and in 120V use switch
> both the hot and the neutral, and, with no further rewiring necessary,
> will switch both hots of a 240V supply.
>
> In fact, I can't think of a reason why a manufacturer of power tools
> easily converted from 120V to 240V wouldn't do it that way.
>

OK. So what is the 'real [practical] advantage' of "reducing the effect of
the high current draw (and voltage drop) at startup"?

David Merrill


"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:51:21 GMT, "David Merrill"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >PS Has anyone else noticed that, after some thirty-odd posts, nobody has
> >addressed the OP's first question regarding whether there is any real
> >[practical] advantage to his converting his 6" jointer from 120 to 240?
> >Yes, I know it's been beat to death :-) but so has the mechanics of doing
> >it.
>
> Excuse me, but I was the first to respond to the OP and I absolutely
> did address that.
>
> Sure, the answer is buried in some technical stuff, but it's there;
>...snip...
> If you
> >have a 15A run of 50 feet, you would indeed be well served by rewiring
> >the motor to 240V, if for no other reason than to reduce the effect of
> >the high current draw (and voltage drop) at startup.
>
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

Kim wrote:
> Don't connect the jointer to the 30A circuit. Maximum breaker size 15A as
> your motor is only about 8A at 220V. I would not interchange ground with
> neutral although the neutral is grounded at the main panel and the motor
> should run. Neutral carries current while ground does not except during a
> phase to ground short circuit. There should not be a neutral in your 220V
> configuration - all you require is two phase conductors and a ground unless
> your Craftsman wiring setup dictates otherwise. You need a 2-pole, 3-wire
> grounding plug and a matching receptacle type NEMA 6-15 - verify with your
> Craftsman instruction manual.



I had the local power utility repair a downed power line once and they
accidentally reversed the phasing, which in turn destroyed a 15 HP 220V 3 phase
Ingersol Rand air compressor I operated at work (caused it to run backwards and
the oil pump didn't pick up oil like it should).

Now, many years later, I'm dealing with 220V single phase power at the house.
Does it make any difference which conductor goes to which blade on a 220V plug?
Obviously the ground goes to the round prong but there are the two remaining
blades: one oriented vertically; the other hortizontally.

I would hate to make a dumb mistake just because I'm trying to save a few bucks.
I'm comfortable enough with 110V but this 220V stuff was something I'd always
let the electrician do.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[email protected]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:19:17 GMT, the inscrutable "David Merrill"
<[email protected]> spake:

>OK. So what is the 'real [practical] advantage' of "reducing the effect of
>the high current draw (and voltage drop) at startup"?

You can potentially trip fewer breakers, dim the lights in your house
less, and burn up fewer motors. It that isn't practical, I don't know
what is.

P.S: The machines FEEL more powerful, too.


-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com

LRod wrote:

>
> But, I reiterate. It's not more efficient. It doesn't use less
> electricity. It doesn't develop more power. It doesn't run cooler. The
> main thing it does is come up to speed quicker IF you don't have a
> stiff supply. It might bog down less for the same reason it starts up
> quicker--less effect from voltage drop.
>

LRod

You are definitely correct. In our area, in the summer when many AC's
are on, we can get low voltage. Sometimes as low as 100V. It got so
bad that I had trouble ripping 2x4's with a thin kerf blade without
tripping the breaker. Switch to 240V (and a 40A subpanel) and I never
trip breakers anymore, even with everyone's AC on. It is definitely
worth converting heavy loads to 240 provided it is done correctly.

Actually, it *is* more efficient as the power loss in the wires will be
less, with half the current flowing. And the wires will be cooler. The
motor would probably run cooler for the same reason. (half as much
current in the windings) It would save some electrical power.

You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker. I would replace the breaker
with a 15 or 20a and replace the outlet with an appropriate outlet. That
the wire is too big is good.

Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v. They will draw half
the amperage, so voltage drop is smaller, especially with starting. It is
not really an issue with your jointer, which is probably only 10a UNLESS you
will also be running your dust collector on the same circuit. Then you
should rewire one to 240v just to get them on separate circuits. Are you
following me, or am I too tired to be coherent? You basically want to avoid
running two tools on the same circuit (at the same time of course). If
rewiring will prevent that, then rewire.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:16:57 GMT, Unquestionably Confused
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I was thinking of the only such tool (other than an air compressor) that
>I switched over to 220v being a Craftsman RAS (and yes, it was a 70's
>vintage Craftsman that preceded many of the Crapsman power tools that
>followed<g>).
>
>I didn't think it had a DPST switch but now I'm curious enough to check
>and see. As I mentioned, I think it's a good idea but wasn't sure that
>it was required in that setting.

I also switched a 1972 Sears RAS to 240V and I guarantee I didn't
(haven't) touch[ed] the switch. I can only assume that it was a DPST
to begin with. I never looked. But the instructions only related to
the leads in the motor.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

toller wrote:

>
> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:51:20 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put
>>>a small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.
>>
>> Why not? Do you have a bunch of teeny tiny 1A breakers to power your
>> clock radio and other small devices with? Someone posted similar
>> nonsense a whlle back saying that because Grizzly recommended a 20A
>> line for their blurpfl that it would void the warranty to power it
>> with a 30A line. I recommended that person refrain from giving
>> electrical advice, obviously lacking a fundamental understanding of
>> it.
>>
> If you read my post, I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.
> It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a
> breaker;
> no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15a
> circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

So why is it OK to put a 1A clock on a 15A circuit but not on a 30A circuit?

>>>You basically want to avoid running two tools on the same circuit (at the
>>>same time of course).
>>
>> Why is that? Do you have separate circuits for your food processor and
>> stand mixer? Geez, where do you guys come up with this stuff?
>>
> Kitchens are required to have two circuits because it is not a good idea
> to run a food processor and stand mixer on the same circuit at the same
> time.

Why not?

The reason kitchens have two circuits is that they are used for cooking,
which often involves heating, using, in addition to the stove, things like
toaster ovens and microwave ovens and deep friers that draw a full 15 amps.

When the requirement for two circuits was put into the codes, nobody had
ever _heard_ of a "food processor".

> If you only have one line it is okay if necessary, but only a moron
> wouldn't try to avoid it.
>
> Friend of Doug's?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Kim wrote:

>
> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:40:45 -0800, "Kim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?
>>>
>>>IEEE, NEC, short circuit and load flow studies, breaker/device
>>>coordinations.
>>
>> You can blindly claim all the initialed documents you want, but cite
>> just one specific paragraph in any reputable regulatory document that
>> supports your statement: "[m]aximum breaker size 15A as your motor is
>> only about 8A at 220V."
>>
>> That's pure nonsense, and I'll be the first to apologize ot you were
>> you to come up with something. Of course that's a safe promise,
>> because you not only can't, but you won't.
>>
>> Local AHJs don't count as their specific requirements are not germane
>> to the discussion, but I'd be happy to see them if they do exist.
>>
>> --
>> LRod
>>
>> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
>
>>
>> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>>
>> http://www.woodbutcher.net
>
> Here is a portion of your statement in context as related to the above:
>
> ">Maximum breaker size 15A as your motor is only about 8A at 220V.
>
> Where do you get that from? And if there were some sort of
> relationship to breaker size and load demand, why would 15A breaker
> with an 8A load be okay but not 20A or 30A breaker?"
>
> NEC Table 430-152, dependent on the motor type, the inverse time breakers
> could go either 150%, 200% or 250% of motor load. In other words, if the
> motor has no code letter, for example, you could go up to a 20A breaker
> based on 8A motor running nameplate load. If the restriction falls on 200%
> or 150%, then 15A CB only. But as a general practice the lowest breaker
> setting should be used, hence 15A. There is no reason why, from a
> protection point of view, you would want to use an 20A, 30A or larger
> breaker where a 15A breaker would do. 15A CB is what I would use.

I think you're confusing code requirements for permanently installed
machinery with code requirements for portable tools.

There is no reason, from a protection point of view, why you would want to
call an electrician and have him remove a perfectly good 30 amp breaker and
the associated 30 amp receptacle and replace it with a 15 amp breaker and
15 amp receptacle just because you are plugging in a saw instead of a dryer
for example.



--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

>On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 19:19:17 GMT, the inscrutable "David Merrill"
><[email protected]> spake:
>
>>OK. So what is the 'real [practical] advantage' of "reducing the effect of
>>the high current draw (and voltage drop) at startup"?

My first shop was located about 60 feet from the breaker box. That
means by the time the power got to my saw or air compressor, I
essentially had at least a 70' extension cord on them.

When my 4HP (wink wink) AC kicked in, half the time it would trip the
20A breaker. If it didn't trip the breaker, it would *slowly* work its
way up to full speed, taking about 30 seconds to do so. Lights would go
almost completely out. For kicks and grins, I pulled the 20A breaker
and replaced it (temporarily) with a 30A breaker. That dang AC still
tripped the 30A breaker when it kicked on! (Yes, I put the 20A back in
-- I'm not that young....)

When my 2HP TS turned on, the lights would dim for a
second, and it would take about 10 seconds to come up to speed.

I rewired the AC for 220V, and the end result was amazing. When it
kicked in, it did so with no hesistation, etc. 1st it was off, and
milliseconds later it was at full power.

For the TS, it wasn't as big as an improvement, but it was still
noticeable. Now the TS is at full speed almost instantly.

After I moved, I literally had my AC sitting just under the breaker box.
I didn't have 220V immediately at my disposal, so I rewired it for 120V.
While it wasn't as bad as when it was at the other place with 70' of
extension cord, it was still noticeable. I rewired it back to 220V as
soon as I got a chance to run 220V to it.

Now I wouldn't even dream of running my TS at anything other than 220V

YMMV

-Steve in Banks, OR
http://woodworking.bigelowsite.com

LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:28:59 GMT, "David Merrill"
> > - possibly improved life of jointer motor
> > (this one still hasn't been clarified to my satisfaction)

> I don't remember that being claimed, but I can dispense with it

I read this whole long thread and it did seem to be
implied somewhere, but I'm not going to go looking.

> quickly (I thought I already had in my original response). From the
> standpoint of the motor windings, it's always running on 120V. Either
> the windings are wired in parallel (120V supply) or the windings are
> wired in series (240V). Since the motor windings are always seeing
> 120V it can't possibly have any different life expectancy based on the
> input voltage.

I will offer this as a *possible* mechanism for longer life
at 240 vs. 120. The slower startup times increase the time
during which those windings are drawing more than normal current.
This will cause a little more heat and possibly shorten the
life of the motor by some small amount. I'm not even sure I
believe this myself, but maybe . . .

> I think you have probably summarized it accurately with the above
> noted exception.

I do agree here. His summary seems spot on with the above
all noted (and he noted it was an iffy point).

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

Kim wrote:

>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Kim wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:40:45 -0800, "Kim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?
>>>>>
>>>>>IEEE, NEC, short circuit and load flow studies, breaker/device
>>>>>coordinations.
>>>>
>>>> You can blindly claim all the initialed documents you want, but cite
>>>> just one specific paragraph in any reputable regulatory document that
>>>> supports your statement: "[m]aximum breaker size 15A as your motor is
>>>> only about 8A at 220V."
>>>>
>>>> That's pure nonsense, and I'll be the first to apologize ot you were
>>>> you to come up with something. Of course that's a safe promise,
>>>> because you not only can't, but you won't.
>>>>
>>>> Local AHJs don't count as their specific requirements are not germane
>>>> to the discussion, but I'd be happy to see them if they do exist.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> LRod
>>>>
>>>> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>>>>
>>>> http://www.woodbutcher.net
>>>
>>> Here is a portion of your statement in context as related to the above:
>>>
>>> ">Maximum breaker size 15A as your motor is only about 8A at 220V.
>>>
>>> Where do you get that from? And if there were some sort of
>>> relationship to breaker size and load demand, why would 15A breaker
>>> with an 8A load be okay but not 20A or 30A breaker?"
>>>
>>> NEC Table 430-152, dependent on the motor type, the inverse time
>>> breakers
>>> could go either 150%, 200% or 250% of motor load. In other words, if the
>>> motor has no code letter, for example, you could go up to a 20A breaker
>>> based on 8A motor running nameplate load. If the restriction falls on
>>> 200%
>>> or 150%, then 15A CB only. But as a general practice the lowest breaker
>>> setting should be used, hence 15A. There is no reason why, from a
>>> protection point of view, you would want to use an 20A, 30A or larger
>>> breaker where a 15A breaker would do. 15A CB is what I would use.
>>
>> I think you're confusing code requirements for permanently installed
>> machinery with code requirements for portable tools.
>
> OK you got me, but the information Table 430-152 should apply, although
> not mandatory for portable tools as you suggested, as motor and breaker
> characteristic don't change or care if the installation is permanent or
> not.

No, they don't. But unless you are going to put some kind of exotic plug on
that tool there is no way to guarantee that it is always going to be
plugged into the outlet that has your special breaker and the guy who plugs
his dryer into that outlet is going to be really pissed when the breaker
pops for no good reason other than that you decided to makes it undersized
to protect a tool that is now plugged in somewhere else.

> For sure motor inrush current was one of the reasons for this table
> perhaps also fire and electrical faults from over sized breakers - who
> knows what the historical reasons were for the NEC panel decisions but you
> can be sure it has much to do with safety. Don't throw out the baby with
> the bath water. All I'm saying was the best protection for this motor is a
> 15A circuit breaker based on the OP's situation. (I've used "maximum' and
> perhaps that was a wrong word choice.)

The BEST protection for this motor is a purpose made contactor with
overcurrent protection designed specifically for the purpose of protecting
motors, not a general purpose breaker stuck in a breaker panel.

If there is a hole in the wall into which a cord is to be plugged, then the
breaker on the circuit to which that hole is connected should be sized to
protect the wiring--the architect, the engineer, the inspector, the
electrician, and everyone else involved have NO control over what gets
plugged into that outlet.

>> There is no reason, from a protection point of view, why you would want
>> to call an electrician and have him remove a perfectly good 30 amp
>> breaker and
>> the associated 30 amp receptacle and replace it with a 15 amp breaker and
>> 15 amp receptacle just because you are plugging in a saw instead of a
>> dryer
>> for example.
>>
>
> Sure from a protection point of view a 30A breaker doesn't see the same
> long time overcurrent or instantaneous trip points as a 15A breaker. In
> other words, the 30A breaker doesn't see the 1hp motor as well as a 15A
> breaker and, therefore, you get better protection with a smaller breaker.

If your purpose is to protect the motor on a tool that is plugged into a
receptacle, then PUT THE PROTECTION ON THE TOOL because there is no
guarantee that it is always going to be plugged into the same receptacle.

> Just a question, not an argument: don't you still need to change the 30A
> breaker to GFI if its now used for both dryer and portable tool(s)?

Generally speaking the code does not address anything that happens beyond
the receptacle. There is certainly no requirement in any code I've ever
heard of that one change existing work just to plug in a tool.

If there is a requirement for a GFI on the receptacle then it will be
required regardless of what you plan to plug into it.

>> --
>> --John
>> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
>> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

on 3/16/2005 11:08 AM LRod said the following:
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:39:32 GMT, Unquestionably Confused
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>If what you say is true, how is that manufacturer's of power tools that
>>are easily converted from 110v to 220v are so converted by merely
>>switching the connection of a pair of leads in the machine? They
>>certainly are not switching both sides of the connection.
>
>
> Actually, they areI can't speak for all tools and all manufacturers,
> but both my Delta bandsaw switch and my Jet switch (which I bought to
> use on my table saw--240V) are DPST switches, and in 120V use switch
> both the hot and the neutral, and, with no further rewiring necessary,
> will switch both hots of a 240V supply.
>
> In fact, I can't think of a reason why a manufacturer of power tools
> easily converted from 120V to 240V wouldn't do it that way.

Hmmm, perhaps my bad - I made an assumption and you know what...

I was thinking of the only such tool (other than an air compressor) that
I switched over to 220v being a Craftsman RAS (and yes, it was a 70's
vintage Craftsman that preceded many of the Crapsman power tools that
followed<g>).

I didn't think it had a DPST switch but now I'm curious enough to check
and see. As I mentioned, I think it's a good idea but wasn't sure that
it was required in that setting.

Thanks.

In article <[email protected]>,
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you read my post, I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.
> It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;
> no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15a
> circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

It sure as hell is an appropriate analogy.

It may need a new switch, one for 220.

Mark Cooper wrote:
> I just acquired a new 6" jointer...the Craftsman which is made by Orion. It
> has a (true) 1 HP motor and comes pre-wired for 110, but can be easily
> rewired for 220. My questions are:
>
> 1. What is the advantage of wiring for 220 vs. 110? Different Websites say
> different things...some say the motor will run cooler, some say it will run
> "better" (not defined!), some say it makes no difference whatsoever.
> Opinions?
>
> 2. The 220 drop in my basement is the type with two straight prongs (at an
> angle) and one L-shaped. The L-shaped prong carries the neutral. (It's a
> 30-amp "dryer outlet.") The jointer's manual says I must connect the ground
> wire to a true ground. My question is...if I connect the ground wire to a
> neutral instead of a true ground, am I still properly grounding the tool?
>
> Total newbie here, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Mark
>
>

Doug Miller wrote:
>> I had the local power utility repair a downed power line once and they
>> accidentally reversed the phasing, which in turn destroyed a 15 HP 220V 3ph
>> Ingersol Rand air compressor I operated at work (caused it to run backwards
>> and the oil pump didn't pick up oil like it should).
>
> Ouch. I hope they paid for repairs.


They did. I cost them quite a bit: that was a 5000 psi 15 cfm air compressor
originally designed to pump up the oleo struts of B-52s. I used it to fill
scuba cylinders.


>> Now, many years later, I'm dealing with 220V single phase power at the house.
>> Does it make any difference which [hot] conductor goes to which blade on a
>> 220V plug?
>
> Not at all.


Thanks very much. This 220V stuff is looking easier all the time.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[email protected]

In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
>small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.

The breaker is for the protection of the wiring, not the tool that's plugged
into it.

> I would replace the breaker
>with a 15 or 20a and replace the outlet with an appropriate outlet. That
>the wire is too big is good.

That's NOT a good idea. The wire used in a 40A circuit is too large to be
adequately secured in a 15- or 20-amp receptacle.

A much better idea - IF, but ONLY if the existing circuit has both a neutral
and a ground - would be to use the existing circuit to feed a subpanel, and
branch new circuits off the subpanel.

>Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.

So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.

>They will draw half
>the amperage, so voltage drop is smaller, especially with starting. It is
>not really an issue with your jointer, which is probably only 10a UNLESS you
>will also be running your dust collector on the same circuit. Then you
>should rewire one to 240v just to get them on separate circuits.

There's really not much point in doing that, unless the two of them together
would overload a single 20A circuit.

>Are you
>following me, or am I too tired to be coherent? You basically want to avoid
>running two tools on the same circuit (at the same time of course). If
>rewiring will prevent that, then rewire.

There's nothing wrong with running two, or more, tools on the same circuit at
the same time, as long as the combined load doesn't exceed the capacity of the
circuit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Duane:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
> toller wrote:
>=20
> ...
>=20
>=20
>>It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a brea=
ker;
>>no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15=
a
>>circuit is not an appropriate analogy.
>=20

It is an entirely appropriate analogy. Devices should (and sometimes=20
must) have internal protective circuitry. He is not being a jerk.=20
Frustrated maybe -- but not a jerk.

> ...
>=20
> Precisely why for a physical reason do you think this is so?
>=20
> The purpose of the breaker is to protect the wiring, not the device.
>=20
> As long as the breaker is not oversized for the wiring, there's no
> problem.


People are confusing _device safety_ with the safety of the distribution =

system as you and other people have pointed out...

You are absolutely correct in your assessment. Not that you need my vote =

to confirm you are correct, but what the heck.

Stands on soap box...
Motors (can, should must etc. depending on applicable regulations and=20
usage) have "safety cut-offs" in the form of thermal and current=20
overdraw breakers of various forms. That's what they are for. So you=20
won't have to put a "small breaker" at the the panel. That's why radios=20
and other electronic devices (should) have an internal fuse or breaker=20
-- although they often don't. But at least when the radio melts it=20
_should not_ harm the wiring -- or you could (might, possibly) get a=20
fire in the wall.
=2E..dismounts from soap box.

OK some else can have it. LOL


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>Eddie Munster wrote:
>>
>> It may need a new switch, one for 220.
>
>For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
>least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.

Maybe so... but that's not what he meant. Switches intended for use with 120V
typically disconnect only the hot conductor. 240V has *two* hot conductors,
and so a double-pole switch is required, to disconnect *both* hot conductors
at once.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

> Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?

IEEE, NEC, short circuit and load flow studies, breaker/device
coordinations.

Wow......thanks everyone! (I think...)

I particularly appreciated the summary!

And as to whether or not the jointer turns out to be a Craftsman or a
Crapsman, I'll let everyone know after I've acquired the skills to know the
difference!



"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:28:59 GMT, "David Merrill"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>And there we have it, after only 63 posts and counting!
>>
>>May I be allowed an attempt to summarize:
>
>> - possibly improved life of jointer motor
>> (this one still hasn't been clarified to my satisfaction)
>
> I don't remember that being claimed, but I can dispense with it
> quickly (I thought I already had in my original response). From the
> standpoint of the motor windings, it's always running on 120V. Either
> the windings are wired in parallel (120V supply) or the windings are
> wired in series (240V). Since the motor windings are always seeing
> 120V it can't possibly have any different life expectancy based on the
> input voltage.
>
>>This is what I understand based on all these posts. Guys, if I'm still
>>missing or mis-stating something, take your best shot :-)
>
> I think you have probably summarized it accurately with the above
> noted exception.
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>Doug doesn't know of a source, In fact he doesn't know his ass from a hole
>in the ground.
>He simply looks for my posts and says I am wrong.

You usually are, when it comes to electricity. Frequently, your errors lead
you to give advice that is not only incorrect, but potentially dangerous.

>He will take quote out of
>context to make it look like I said something silly.

I don't have to take your words out of context to make it look like you said
something silly. You do a perfectly adequate job of looking silly entirely on
your own, without any help from me.

> Here I actually said
>the 1hp motor probably drew 10a and didn't need to be changed; only motors
>over 15 amps needed to be changed. He quoted the "over 15" to make it look
>like I said the 1hp motor drew over 15a.

You missed the point: 15A motors, regardless of what they need, are utterly
irrelevant to the original poster, because he doesn't have one. So why bring
it up? Like I said, so who has a 15A motor?

> He is an idiot and an obnoxious jerk. I have him killfiled, but I see him
>when someone replies to a post in which he says something stupid about my
>post.

You want some cheese to go with that whine? You're just upset because I caught
*another* instance of you giving incorrect answers to electrical questions.
Quit posting bad advice, and I'll quit calling you on it.

You *don't* know what you're talking about. Someone who makes the mistake of
thinking you do could wind up hurting himself.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:13:39 -0800, "Kim" <[email protected]> wrote:


>NEC Table 430-152, dependent on the motor type, the inverse time breakers
>could go either 150%, 200% or 250% of motor load. In other words, if the
>motor has no code letter, for example, you could go up to a 20A breaker
>based on 8A motor running nameplate load. If the restriction falls on 200%
>or 150%, then 15A CB only. But as a general practice the lowest breaker
>setting should be used, hence 15A. There is no reason why, from a protection
>point of view, you would want to use an 20A, 30A or larger breaker where a
>15A breaker would do. 15A CB is what I would use.

Well, I may stand corrected. Not having the NEC in front of me to see
the table in context prevents me from fully capitulating, but I do
concede that you provided an actual source that at least appears to
require a max breaker size for a particular motor.

I'll continue to explore this.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

In article <uZ0_d.5826$FB6.1115@trndny09>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I guess I really shouldn't expect you to admit you are wrong. You are,
>however, either ignorant of the facts or just don't want to admit you made a
>mistake. As I said in my first response to you statement that a 1 HP motor
>draws approx. 6A, please post a link to where I can buy some of them,
>because I can save a quite few bucks on my electric bill if I replace all of
>my inefficient AC motors with those 100% efficient ones you must use.

And I guess I shouldn't expect you to admit that you've invested a lot of
energy refuting something I never said.

Have a nice day.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:32:55 -0600, Duane Bozarth
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Yeah, Al already beat me up over my slipup...had a toller moment
>there... :(

Good one!

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 23:11:18 GMT, "David Merrill"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Would it make a difference if other loads, say a dust collector, existed on
>the same circuit? Assuming, as you stated, adequately sized wire and
>appropriate circuit breaker.

Of course it would. It would also depend on whether said dust
collector, etc. was on. But that's all a smoke screen irrelevant to
the question. It's simple electrical physics. The voltage drop at 240V
is ¼ what it is at 120V. Therefore, if your saw is 70' from the source
and you're drawing near the max amps (more at startup) on a circuit,
you're four times more likely to see anomalous effects at 120V than at
240V, that is dimming of lights, prolonged startup time, etc.

Those who profess there is no difference in performance between a saw
running on 120V vs one running on 240V either have a stiff supply in
the first place, or have never actually made the comparison. I've
experienced it. It's a real effect.

But, I reiterate. It's not more efficient. It doesn't use less
electricity. It doesn't develop more power. It doesn't run cooler. The
main thing it does is come up to speed quicker IF you don't have a
stiff supply. It might bog down less for the same reason it starts up
quicker--less effect from voltage drop.

>Or is the presumed benefit of changing to 220 volts simply that it usually
>involves getting the tool onto a dedicated circuit.

Nothing presumed about it. But I don't think you can ignore the
possibility that the dedicated circuit is a factor or a benefit.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>> >Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.
>>
>> So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
>> apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.
>>
>
>I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100%
> efficiency?

That was the original poster's term, not mine. I assume he meant that it draws
1HP of power.
>
>In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC,
> depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.

A motor with 1HP output, drawing 15A, isn't very efficient (around 40%). I
think most electric motors do a little better than that.

>However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient
> motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.

The point is that a 1HP motor isn't going to pull "over 15A".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <uZ0_d.5826$FB6.1115@trndny09>, "Al Reid"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I guess I really shouldn't expect you to admit you are wrong. You are,
> >however, either ignorant of the facts or just don't want to admit you
made a
> >mistake. As I said in my first response to you statement that a 1 HP
motor
> >draws approx. 6A, please post a link to where I can buy some of them,
> >because I can save a quite few bucks on my electric bill if I replace all
of
> >my inefficient AC motors with those 100% efficient ones you must use.
>
> And I guess I shouldn't expect you to admit that you've invested a lot of
> energy refuting something I never said.
>

This all started with you replying to the following:

>Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v. <

with:

>So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.<

See it's in black and white. You clearly state that a 1HP motor draws ~6A
at 120VAC.

Sheesh... Just admit you ware wrong in the above statement, Is it really
that hard? You clearly neglected power factor, efficiency and service
factor in stating that a 1 HP motor cannot draw 15A. I'll give you that
most 1HP motors will not draw 15 amps at 120 V if you can show me any 1 HP
motor that draws ~6A.

I hope I made it clear enough for you to understand.

--

Al Reid

> Have a nice day.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 13:13:39 -0800, "Kim" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>NEC Table 430-152, dependent on the motor type, the inverse time breakers
>>could go either 150%, 200% or 250% of motor load. In other words, if the
>>motor has no code letter, for example, you could go up to a 20A breaker
>>based on 8A motor running nameplate load. If the restriction falls on 200%
>>or 150%, then 15A CB only. But as a general practice the lowest breaker
>>setting should be used, hence 15A. There is no reason why, from a protection
>>point of view, you would want to use an 20A, 30A or larger breaker where a
>>15A breaker would do. 15A CB is what I would use.
>
>Well, I may stand corrected. Not having the NEC in front of me to see
>the table in context prevents me from fully capitulating, but I do
>concede that you provided an actual source that at least appears to
>require a max breaker size for a particular motor.
>
>I'll continue to explore this.
>
What he states is correct, but irrelevant to the present discussion. The cited
portion of the NEC is concerned with permanently installed motors and the
circuits that supply them. We were talking about cord-and-plug-connected
motorized tools. The NEC pretty much stops at the receptacle. There is *no*
code violation in plugging a tool with an 8A motor into a receptacle on a 20A
circuit. Or a 30A circuit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:51:21 GMT, "David Merrill"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>PS Has anyone else noticed that, after some thirty-odd posts, nobody has
>addressed the OP's first question regarding whether there is any real
>[practical] advantage to his converting his 6" jointer from 120 to 240?
>Yes, I know it's been beat to death :-) but so has the mechanics of doing
>it.

Excuse me, but I was the first to respond to the OP and I absolutely
did address that.

Sure, the answer is buried in some technical stuff, but it's there;
note especially paragraphs two and three:

>Here's the way to look at it: in most dual voltage motors there are
>two windings. It is possible to connect the windings either in series
>or in parallel. For 120V operation, the windings are connected in
>parallel; for 240V operation, the windings are connected in series.

>What all of this means is related to E=IR (Ohm's Law) and the
>derivative, P=IE, and the result is half the current used at 240V vs
>that used at 120V--however, the power (watts) is the same. The
>windings in your motor are thus always seeing 120V so no difference in
>efficiency, no change in the electric bill, and no cooler running.

>If you have a stiff supply (short run of adequately sized wire) it
>won't make a whit of difference which voltage you run it on. If you
>have a 15A run of 50 feet, you would indeed be well served by rewiring
>the motor to 240V, if for no other reason than to reduce the effect of
>the high current draw (and voltage drop) at startup.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"Mark Cooper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1110945174.a3c2fd1b1ee0dcec10c4ff2019b0490e@teranews...
>I just acquired a new 6" jointer...the Craftsman which is made by Orion.
>It has a (true) 1 HP motor and comes pre-wired for 110, but can be easily
>rewired for 220. My questions are:
>
> 1. What is the advantage of wiring for 220 vs. 110? Different Websites
> say different things...some say the motor will run cooler, some say it
> will run "better" (not defined!), some say it makes no difference
> whatsoever. Opinions?
>

Makes no difference if line voltage drop were the same.

The difference for 220V is half the conductor size with half the current
draw. In other words with the same conductor size you could run your jointer
at twice the distance with 220V.


> 2. The 220 drop in my basement is the type with two straight prongs (at
> an angle) and one L-shaped. The L-shaped prong carries the neutral.
> (It's a 30-amp "dryer outlet.") The jointer's manual says I must connect
> the ground wire to a true ground. My question is...if I connect the
> ground wire to a neutral instead of a true ground, am I still properly
> grounding the tool?
>

Don't connect the jointer to the 30A circuit. Maximum breaker size 15A as
your motor is only about 8A at 220V. I would not interchange ground with
neutral although the neutral is grounded at the main panel and the motor
should run. Neutral carries current while ground does not except during a
phase to ground short circuit. There should not be a neutral in your 220V
configuration - all you require is two phase conductors and a ground unless
your Craftsman wiring setup dictates otherwise. You need a 2-pole, 3-wire
grounding plug and a matching receptacle type NEMA 6-15 - verify with your
Craftsman instruction manual.




> Total newbie here, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Mark
>

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:51:20 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
>>small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.
>
> Why not? Do you have a bunch of teeny tiny 1A breakers to power your
> clock radio and other small devices with? Someone posted similar
> nonsense a whlle back saying that because Grizzly recommended a 20A
> line for their blurpfl that it would void the warranty to power it
> with a 30A line. I recommended that person refrain from giving
> electrical advice, obviously lacking a fundamental understanding of
> it.
>
If you read my post, I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.
It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;
no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15a
circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

>>You basically want to avoid running two tools on the same circuit (at the
>>same time of course).
>
> Why is that? Do you have separate circuits for your food processor and
> stand mixer? Geez, where do you guys come up with this stuff?
>
Kitchens are required to have two circuits because it is not a good idea to
run a food processor and stand mixer on the same circuit at the same time.
If you only have one line it is okay if necessary, but only a moron wouldn't
try to avoid it.

Friend of Doug's?

I think we're getting closer to answering the OP's question here. But, what
do you mean by "FEEL more powerful", or was that with a smiley face?

David Merrill

"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You can potentially trip fewer breakers, dim the lights in your house
> less, and burn up fewer motors. It that isn't practical, I don't know
> what is.
>
> P.S: The machines FEEL more powerful, too.

In article <TU2_d.142418$tl3.41783@attbi_s02>, "David Merrill" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The on/off toggle switch in my 110/220 volt convertible Delta Dust
>Collector, mentioned in my first post, above, has one wire in, one wire out
>and one conductive rocker connecting the two, making it a SPST switch. I
>think the lawyers and 'value engineers' have been at work; this tool, at
>least, is not so "easily converted" without first consulting Delta's service
>facility to obtain a proper switch. It doesn't look like something one is
>likely to find at HD.

You may not be able to find one that's an exact form-and-fit replacement for
your existing SPST switch, but actually, you shouldn't have any trouble at all
finding a DPST switch at HD or Lowe's.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:31:47 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>If you read my post,

I did read it.

> I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.

And I asked you why not.

>It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;

Please cite a single reputable source that supports that nonsense.
Just one. Of course you won't be able to because any reputable source
is in direct conflict with your distorted concept of electricity.

>no one would argue with that except to be a jerk.

If you consider someone disagreeing with a completely nonsensical,
unsupportable proposition being a jerk, then I'll wear the badge
proudly.

>The 1a clock on a 15a circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

It's a perfect analogy. That you don't recognsize it is an indicator
that you don't understand electricity. I now believe it was you I
recommended not give any electrical advice. You clearly don't have a
clue about it. In fact, you are the very embodiment of why people
should take advice gleaned from the internet with a huge grain of
salt.

>Friend of Doug's?

That would be fine with me. He knows what he's talking about with
regard to electricity. You don't.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Would it make a difference if other loads, say a dust collector, existed on
the same circuit? Assuming, as you stated, adequately sized wire and
appropriate circuit breaker. Or is the presumed benefit of changing to 220
volts simply that it usually involves getting the tool onto a dedicated
circuit.

David Merrill


"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
...snip>
> >If you have a stiff supply (short run of adequately sized wire) it
> >won't make a whit of difference which voltage you run it on.

"Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.
>>
>> So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
>> apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.
>>
>
> I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100%
> efficiency?
>
> In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC,
> depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.
>
> However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient
> motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.
>
Doug doesn't know of a source, In fact he doesn't know his ass from a hole
in the ground.
He simply looks for my posts and says I am wrong. He will take quote out of
context to make it look like I said something silly. Here I actually said
the 1hp motor probably drew 10a and didn't need to be changed; only motors
over 15 amps needed to be changed. He quoted the "over 15" to make it look
like I said the 1hp motor drew over 15a.
He is an idiot and an obnoxious jerk. I have him killfiled, but I see him
when someone replies to a post in which he says something stupid about my
post.
Do yourself a favor and killfile him; you won't be sorry.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 02:55:57 -0000, [email protected]
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:


>I'm taking issue _only_ with the "_can't_possibly_ have _any_ effect on life
>expectancy" part of your recent statement.

I'm going to have to quit couching my sentiments in absolute terms.
That's the second hammering on that score I've taken in the last
couple of months. Of course, I was absolutely, er, uh, pretty darn
correct in the other one.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:40:45 -0800, "Kim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?
>
>IEEE, NEC, short circuit and load flow studies, breaker/device
>coordinations.

You can blindly claim all the initialed documents you want, but cite
just one specific paragraph in any reputable regulatory document that
supports your statement: "[m]aximum breaker size 15A as your motor is
only about 8A at 220V."

That's pure nonsense, and I'll be the first to apologize ot you were
you to come up with something. Of course that's a safe promise,
because you not only can't, but you won't.

Local AHJs don't count as their specific requirements are not germane
to the discussion, but I'd be happy to see them if they do exist.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:58:22 -0500, "Mark Cooper"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I just acquired a new 6" jointer...the Craftsman which is made by Orion. It
>has a (true) 1 HP motor and comes pre-wired for 110, but can be easily
>rewired for 220. My questions are:
>
>1. What is the advantage of wiring for 220 vs. 110? Different Websites say
>different things...some say the motor will run cooler, some say it will run
>"better" (not defined!), some say it makes no difference whatsoever.
>Opinions?
>
>2. The 220 drop in my basement is the type with two straight prongs (at an
>angle) and one L-shaped. The L-shaped prong carries the neutral. (It's a
>30-amp "dryer outlet.") The jointer's manual says I must connect the ground
>wire to a true ground. My question is...if I connect the ground wire to a
>neutral instead of a true ground, am I still properly grounding the tool?

Here's the way to look at it: in most dual voltage motors there are
two windings. It is possible to connect the windings either in series
or in parallel. For 120V operation, the windings are connected in
parallel; for 240V operation, the windings are connected in series.

What all of this means is related to E=IR (Ohm's Law) and the
derivative, P=IE, and the result is half the current used at 240V vs
that used at 120V--however, the power (watts) is the same. The
windings in your motor are thus always seeing 120V so no difference in
efficiency, no change in the electric bill, and no cooler running.

If you have a stiff supply (short run of adequately sized wire) it
won't make a whit of difference which voltage you run it on. If you
have a 15A run of 50 feet, you would indeed be well served by rewiring
the motor to 240V, if for no other reason than to reduce the effect of
the high current draw (and voltage drop) at startup.

Now, erase all thoughts of a "neutral" in a 240V circuit. Ain't no
such animal. There are two 120V hot leads (180° out of phase) and a
ground, and the ground is only for safety; it's not needed to make the
motor run (dryers were permitted to use the ground as a netural so
that they could use one leg of the 240V circuit for electric timers
and such, but otherwise, the 240V feed is used for the heating coils).

If the panel that feeds your "dryer outlet" is the main load center,
Bob's your uncle, as the ground and neutral are bonded in the panel
and the third wire can truly be used as a ground with no further
effort. If the panel is a sub-panel then you must make sure the third
wire is indeed connected to the ground bus.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Your observations prompted me to check the Instruction Manuals for a Delta
10" Contractor's Saw, circa 1990 and a Delta 1HP Dust Collector, circa 2001.
Both machines are supplied with dual voltage 120/230 volt motors.

The more recent manual makes a point of the need for the conversion to be
done by "qualified electrical personnel" to include a)re-wiring the motor
for 240 volts; b)installing a 240 volt plug on the cord; and c) replacing
the single pole on/off switch with a double pole switch. However, the older
manual for the table saw describes only the motor rewiring and the plug
replacement but makes no mention of the need for a new switch. The switch
in question is a simple metal toggle mounted directly in the saw cabinet (so
I haven't dug it out to examine it's specs; parts list just says 'Switch',
438-01-628-004).

Is it possible that the switch supplied with the table saw was/is suitable
for both 120 and 240 volt operation? Is it likely that it is, in fact, DPST
to begin with; and, if so, can a DPST be used for either 120 or 240 volt
operation.

The newer, Dust Collector manual Parts List doesn't list a 220 volt switch
either and the switch design doesn't look 'generic'; instead, the manual
says: "Should you desire to have your dust collector converted for 240
volts, take your dust collector to the nearest Authorized Service Center".

David Merrill

PS Has anyone else noticed that, after some thirty-odd posts, nobody has
addressed the OP's first question regarding whether there is any real
[practical] advantage to his converting his 6" jointer from 120 to 240?
Yes, I know it's been beat to death :-) but so has the mechanics of doing
it.



"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Will
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >You are absolutely correct in that this would be a "good thing" -- is it
> >indeed the law? Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it is a
> >requirement... LOL
>
> Whether it's required or not is irrelevant: to do otherwise is to create a
> potential, and entirely unnecessary, safety hazard.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:AQ%[email protected]...
> >> In article <[email protected]>, "Al Reid"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >If we consider Service Factor along with Efficiency and Power Factor,
a 1 HP
> >> > motor will pull between 10 and 15 Amps at 115 VAC.
> >>
> >> No argument there. My claim was that it wouldn't pull "over 15A".
> >> >
> >> >However, the main point is that a 1 HP motor will NEVER pull 6 FLA.
> >>
> >> I didn't say that it would. All I meant was that since 1HP = approx 6A
at
> >> 120V, it's absurd to suppose that a 1HP motor is likely to pull over
15A.
> >>
> >
> >Doug: Here is where you are wrong. No 1HP motor is rated at approx 6A
at 120
> > VAC. PERIOD.
>
> I didn't say that it was. Please read what I wrote.
>
> >However, if you want to state that one
> >theoretical or mechanical horsepower is equal to 746 watts, that would be
a
> > different story all together. As soon as you express it
> >in Amps, you have to take efficiency, power factor and perhaps service
factor
> > into account.
>
> Of course - but that doesn't mean that a 1HP motor will draw over 15A at
120V.
> >
> >You are correct that it is unlikeky that a 1 HP motor will be rated at
greater
> > than 15 FLA, BUT that is different from saying that a
> >1 HP motor = approx 6 Amps. Do you see the difference?
>
> I see the difference just fine. Please un-knot your knickers long enough
to
> understand what I've written. The point is that since 1HP = approximately
the
> same power as 6A at 120V, it's just goofy to think that a 1HP motor is
going
> to draw two and a half times that much current in normal operation.
>
> >> > That calculation was just plain wrong.
> >>
> >> Nothing wrong with the calculation, just with the interpretation of its
> >> meaning. Hopefully I've clarified what I meant by it.
> >>
> >
> >See above.
>
> See above.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug,

I guess I really shouldn't expect you to admit you are wrong. You are,
however, either ignorant of the facts or just don't want to admit you made a
mistake. As I said in my first response to you statement that a 1 HP motor
draws approx. 6A, please post a link to where I can buy some of them,
because I can save a quite few bucks on my electric bill if I replace all of
my inefficient AC motors with those 100% efficient ones you must use.

Later,
--
Al Reid

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:38:11 GMT, the inscrutable "David Merrill"
<[email protected]> spake:

>I think we're getting closer to answering the OP's question here. But, what
>do you mean by "FEEL more powerful", or was that with a smiley face?

No, 220v pops 'em to life quicker. The resultant feeling is that they
have more power, though the actual power gain is probably in the
hundredths of HP.


-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 02:28:59 GMT, "David Merrill"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>And there we have it, after only 63 posts and counting!
>
>May I be allowed an attempt to summarize:

> - possibly improved life of jointer motor
> (this one still hasn't been clarified to my satisfaction)

I don't remember that being claimed, but I can dispense with it
quickly (I thought I already had in my original response). From the
standpoint of the motor windings, it's always running on 120V. Either
the windings are wired in parallel (120V supply) or the windings are
wired in series (240V). Since the motor windings are always seeing
120V it can't possibly have any different life expectancy based on the
input voltage.

>This is what I understand based on all these posts. Guys, if I'm still
>missing or mis-stating something, take your best shot :-)

I think you have probably summarized it accurately with the above
noted exception.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Al Reid" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.
>>>
>>> So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
>>> apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.
>>>
>>
>> I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100%
>> efficiency?
>>
>> In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC,
>> depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.
>>
>> However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient
>> motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.
>>
>Doug doesn't know of a source, In fact he doesn't know his ass from a hole
>in the ground.
[snip further ranting]

Toller, your posts demonstrate that you have no business giving anybody advice
on electrical wiring.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?