Hh

"HeyBub"

08/03/2010 6:18 PM

144,000 horsepower

A look at the current - and past - state of the U.S.S. United States.

With downloadable plans for building your own copy. Out of wood.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.html?page=2


This topic has 81 replies

DW

Doug Winterburn

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 8:39 PM

Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>> On Mar 10, 4:01 pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
>>>> pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
>>>> water.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Zz Yzx wrote:
>>>>>> http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.htm...
>>> Funny thing is, that she would probably do 42 kts with 50,000 HP and
>>> the next 2 knots would take 3 times as much. Such is the rule of
>>> displacement vessels. To take that one theoretical step further, if
>>> they wanted to go 46 knots, they's need 400,000 HP. 47kt 1 million. 50
>>> kts a bezllion HP
>> I think 55 knots or so is the theoretical maximum a vessel can move through
>> the water, irrespective of the power pushing it.
>
> Nope. not even close
>
> Currently, unlimited power-boat races are in the 160MPH range. in years past,
> they got up into the 200 MPH range, but engine/fuel restrictions have brought
> the speeds down.
>
> 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>
> Some torpedoes -- which travel entirely underwater -- have sustained speeds
> well over 100 knots.

unlimiteds aren't displacement boats, they're hydroplanes. Cigarette
boats are also on plane at speed and therefore not displacement vessels.
My physicist buddy that does torpedo testing says max speed for a
conventional torpedo is 55 knots, but supercavitating torpedoes are
capable of much higher speeds by essentially traveling in a gas bubble
and are therefore also not technically [water] displacement devices.

bR

[email protected] (Robert Bonomi)

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 6:28 PM

In article <[email protected]>,
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/12/2010 11:09 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>> On Mar 12, 10:57 am, Morris Dovey<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2010 8:15 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>>>
>>>> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16 airborne. I
>>>> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.
>>>
>>> Just wondering...
>>>
>>> If I reworked a Hoby as a jet boat, how much power do you guess it might
>>> take to push it along at, say, 5 and 10 mph?
>>>
>>> I might be about to set my beer aside and try something goofy...
>>
>> Jet? As in water jet or Jet Jet? *s* But you wouldn't be talking
>> fluidyne here, eh?
>
>Yup - fluidyne water jet. I've been doing a lot of re-design and it
>appears that I can boost both the efficiency and the oscillation rate to
>the limits of mechanical check valves.
>
>With a platform like the Hoby, I think I can mount a tracking solar
>concentrator and have 3-4 kW of input power to work with and (perhaps)
>50% of that in pump power.


That'll give you a theoretical roughly 2HP. Enough to move it around,
but -not- with much speed. Think 'trolling motor'.

OTOH, if you can fit one concentrator/fluidyne, maybe you can get 2-3 of
'em on board. Now, you're approaching the capabilities of a 5HP outboard.
That should be enough to leave a wake -- at least a small one. <grin>

>My problem is that I'm not sure that'd be enough to pull a twin-hull
>platform.
>
>Heh - it just occurred to me that if I needed a horn, I could disconnect
>the pump and use the engine (at say, [email protected]} to warn off the jet
>skiers. :)

That hurts just to *think* about it.


Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 6:21 AM

On Mar 10, 10:49=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" =A0wrote:
>
> The maximum speed of a displacement vessel is determined by its
> length. The longer, the faster.... with the same power.
> -----------------------------
>
> Theotretical limit for a displacement is =3D
> (1.4)*(square root of design waterline length in feet)
>
> Lew

Zactly. Many folks also don't get it when you tell them that it takes
less power to drag an equilateral triangle shape through the water by
the flat end than by the pointy end. The drag is called drag for a
reason.
Wanna make a trailer (As in tractor/trailer van) more efficient? Put a
cone on the back end... not the front.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 2:46 PM

On Mar 12, 5:18=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> We could start an argument on the spelling of argument, but what ARE
> you talking about?
> ------------------
> Try jet skis, then toss in stink boats.
>
> > If ever there was a time for Darwin to kick in.
>
> Explain that, please.
> --------------------------------
> In order to get the keys to one of those pieces of garbage, you have
> to prove that you have no more than two brain cells, one of which is
> dead.
>
> Left to their own devices, Darwin kicks in.
>
> Same applies to the SeaRay crowd.

WTF ARE those things? What is the point of them? You can't safely ski
behind them because if I swing out, *I* will be turning that 'boat'
and not the driver.

ZY

Zz Yzx

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

08/03/2010 5:16 PM

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 18:18:46 -0600, "HeyBub" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>A look at the current - and past - state of the U.S.S. United States.
>
>With downloadable plans for building your own copy. Out of wood.
>
>http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.html?page=2
>

That is one SHARP bow profile. Yikes.

-Zz

Ns

"Nonny"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 12:11 PM


"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:d17c17dd-3e2a-484a-89c1-d7d2ed78dbf1@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 10, 10:45 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> "Robert Bonomi" wrote:
>> > 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>>
>> 'Cigarette' boats AKA: Bathtub toys.
>>
>> I used to have to listen to there bull crap about how
>> 'Cigarette'
>> boats were "Blue Water" boats.
>>
>> Used to piss off those guys no end when they would schedule a
>> race
>> then have to stay tied up at dock when a front would come thru
>> the
>> night before and they couldn't handle the 4-6 ft chop with
>> 15-20 knots
>> of wind that resulted.
>>
>> I'd hang a 110 jib, tuck a reef in the main and go out and
>> play.
>>
>> Gawd did that piss them off.
>>
>> I just grinned and got a cold one.
>>
>> Lew
>
> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16
> airborne. I
> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.

I pitchpoled my 16 several times. It's amazing how far a body can
fly from the back of a trampoline. <grin>

--
Nonny


Luxury cars now offer a great seating option for politicians.
These seats blow heated air onto their backside in the winter and
cooled air in the summer. If sold to voters, though, the car
seats
are modified to just blow smoke up the voter's rump year-round

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 1:21 PM

On Mar 11, 3:27=A0pm, "chaniarts" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Nonny wrote:
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:d17c17dd-3e2a-484a-89c1-d7d2ed78dbf1@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com..=
.
> >> On Mar 10, 10:45 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> "Robert Bonomi" wrote:
> >>>> 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>
> >>> 'Cigarette' boats AKA: Bathtub toys.
>
> >>> I used to have to listen to there bull crap about how
> >>> 'Cigarette'
> >>> boats were "Blue Water" boats.
>
> >>> Used to piss off those guys no end when they would schedule a
> >>> race
> >>> then have to stay tied up at dock when a front would come thru
> >>> the
> >>> night before and they couldn't handle the 4-6 ft chop with
> >>> 15-20 knots
> >>> of wind that resulted.
>
> >>> I'd hang a 110 jib, tuck a reef in the main and go out and
> >>> play.
>
> >>> Gawd did that piss them off.
>
> >>> I just grinned and got a cold one.
>
> >>> Lew
>
> >> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16
> >> airborne. I
> >> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.
>
> > I pitchpoled my 16 several times. =A0It's amazing how far a body can
> > fly from the back of a trampoline. <grin>
>
> try a more modern cat, like a nacra or larger prindle, without a spin. yo=
u
> have to do something really stupid and go out of your way to pitchpole a
> prindle 19 or 18.2. i've never come even really close to pitchpoling my p=
19
> and i've been out in some heavy winds. they have wave piercing hull forms=
,
> so go through rather than up and down, so it's much harder to catch the n=
ose
> and trip.

You can jury-rig some wing-type baffles to help ride up on the wave,
but the adverse effect is that IF you dig in, you're looking at your
own butt.

bR

[email protected] (Robert Bonomi)

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 9:55 PM

In article <%[email protected]>,
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:

> My physicist buddy that does torpedo testing says max speed for a
>conventional torpedo is 55 knots, but supercavitating torpedoes are
>capable of much higher speeds by essentially traveling in a gas bubble
>and are therefore also not technically [water] displacement devices.

I'll simply suggest that _something_ is moving the water out of the way,
be it the torpedo body or the 'gas bubble'. Else an elementary fact
of physics is being violated. *OR* somebody has managed to implement
the tunnel diode at a macro scale. <grin>


Hh

"HeyBub"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 8:31 PM

Robatoy wrote:
> On Mar 10, 4:01 pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
>> pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
>> water.
>>
>>
>>
>> Zz Yzx wrote:
>>>> http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.htm...
>
> Funny thing is, that she would probably do 42 kts with 50,000 HP and
> the next 2 knots would take 3 times as much. Such is the rule of
> displacement vessels. To take that one theoretical step further, if
> they wanted to go 46 knots, they's need 400,000 HP. 47kt 1 million. 50
> kts a bezllion HP

I think 55 knots or so is the theoretical maximum a vessel can move through
the water, irrespective of the power pushing it.

As the speed increases, the vessel begins to outrun its bow wave. It then
has to ride over the bow wave or push through it. The faster the vessel, the
bigger the bow wave.

Sort of like the increase in mass with velocity and, as the velocity
approaches the speed of light, the mass becomes infinite. Only not exactly.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 10/03/2010 8:31 PM

12/03/2010 7:44 AM

On Mar 12, 9:44=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:49:02 -0800, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Robatoy" wrote:
>
> >> Just a hard turn at good speed. here's another one:
> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/HARRRDtoPORT.jpg
>
> >--------------------------------------
> >Reminds me of my college days living in a boarding house.
>
> >Saturday nights down in the basement watching TV.
>
> >"Have Gun Will Travel" and the Navy submarine show hosted by a retired
> >Rear Admiral were fravorites.
>
> >Used footage of WWII subs and the lead into the show was the standard
> >pice of film showing the sub surfacing at about a 45 degree angle.
>
> >I'm sure that little trick cost the captain the rest of his career
> >unless it was done on orders.
>
> >Never cared to find out.
>
> No doubt it was an authorized film of the emergency surfacing
> techniques, Lew. =A0I loved those old sub flicks, too.
>
Always that drowning bunch behind the watertight door, the leaky/
squirting pipe, the sweat, the pings, the mad skipper..... if you seen
Das Boot, you've seen all the sub movies. IMHO.

I DO like sub warfare simulation games. Going back to Silent Service
on a Commodore 64. Primitive, but fun. Then Wolfpack on a Mac... I now
call those games 'time-sinks'.

LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 10/03/2010 8:31 PM

12/03/2010 7:46 PM


"LDosser" wrote:

> IIRC, Silent Service was the name of the TV show Larry watched.
--------------------------------
That was it.

Don't think Larry was old enough to watch.

Lew


LL

"LDosser"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 10/03/2010 8:31 PM

12/03/2010 7:18 PM

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1c242f4e-3c9a-4f34-9bf3-17eac545b92e@d27g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 12, 9:44 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:49:02 -0800, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Robatoy" wrote:
>
> >> Just a hard turn at good speed. here's another one:
> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/HARRRDtoPORT.jpg
>
> >--------------------------------------
> >Reminds me of my college days living in a boarding house.
>
> >Saturday nights down in the basement watching TV.
>
> >"Have Gun Will Travel" and the Navy submarine show hosted by a retired
> >Rear Admiral were fravorites.
>
> >Used footage of WWII subs and the lead into the show was the standard
> >pice of film showing the sub surfacing at about a 45 degree angle.
>
> >I'm sure that little trick cost the captain the rest of his career
> >unless it was done on orders.
>
> >Never cared to find out.
>
> No doubt it was an authorized film of the emergency surfacing
> techniques, Lew. I loved those old sub flicks, too.
>
Always that drowning bunch behind the watertight door, the leaky/
squirting pipe, the sweat, the pings, the mad skipper..... if you seen
Das Boot, you've seen all the sub movies. IMHO.

I DO like sub warfare simulation games. Going back to Silent Service
on a Commodore 64. Primitive, but fun. Then Wolfpack on a Mac... I now
call those games 'time-sinks'.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IIRC, Silent Service was the name of the TV show Larry watched. Another good
one from that era was Victory at Sea.

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "HeyBub" on 10/03/2010 8:31 PM

12/03/2010 6:44 AM

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:49:02 -0800, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>
>"Robatoy" wrote:
>
>> Just a hard turn at good speed. here's another one:
>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/HARRRDtoPORT.jpg
>
>--------------------------------------
>Reminds me of my college days living in a boarding house.
>
>Saturday nights down in the basement watching TV.
>
>"Have Gun Will Travel" and the Navy submarine show hosted by a retired
>Rear Admiral were fravorites.
>
>Used footage of WWII subs and the lead into the show was the standard
>pice of film showing the sub surfacing at about a 45 degree angle.
>
>I'm sure that little trick cost the captain the rest of his career
>unless it was done on orders.
>
>Never cared to find out.

No doubt it was an authorized film of the emergency surfacing
techniques, Lew. I loved those old sub flicks, too.

--
There is no such thing as limits to growth, because there are no limits
to the human capacity for intelligence, imagination, and wonder.
--Ronald Reagan

LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 7:45 PM


"Robert Bonomi" wrote:

> 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.

'Cigarette' boats AKA: Bathtub toys.

I used to have to listen to there bull crap about how 'Cigarette'
boats were "Blue Water" boats.

Used to piss off those guys no end when they would schedule a race
then have to stay tied up at dock when a front would come thru the
night before and they couldn't handle the 4-6 ft chop with 15-20 knots
of wind that resulted.

I'd hang a 110 jib, tuck a reef in the main and go out and play.

Gawd did that piss them off.

I just grinned and got a cold one.

Lew


Mm

Markem

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 10/03/2010 7:45 PM

12/03/2010 4:44 PM

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:18:57 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Left to their own devices, Darwin kicks in.
>
>Same applies to the SeaRay crowd.

But no fences as the snow mobile folk have. :(

Mark

LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 7:49 PM


"Robatoy" wrote:

The maximum speed of a displacement vessel is determined by its
length. The longer, the faster.... with the same power.
-----------------------------

Theotretical limit for a displacement is =
(1.4)*(square root of design waterline length in feet)

Lew


LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 1:47 PM


"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

> He
> claimed it wouldn't even get moving till the Coast Guard put out the
> small craft warning :-).

------------------------
Sounds about right.

Lew


LM

"Lee Michaels"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 8:10 PM


<[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>And last but not least, 100 stunning pics everyone should see. There
>>are some real doozies here: http://tinyurl.com/y9oha8e

Thanks for that. She also runs the website

http://www.furrytalk.com/

which has huge numbers of cute animal pictures.

My wife is a big fan of both nature and snimal pictures. This stuff will get
sent out through a vast network of folks who apprciate this sort of thing.


LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 9:49 PM


"Robatoy" wrote:

> Just a hard turn at good speed. here's another one:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/HARRRDtoPORT.jpg

--------------------------------------
Reminds me of my college days living in a boarding house.

Saturday nights down in the basement watching TV.

"Have Gun Will Travel" and the Navy submarine show hosted by a retired
Rear Admiral were fravorites.

Used footage of WWII subs and the lead into the show was the standard
pice of film showing the sub surfacing at about a 45 degree angle.

I'm sure that little trick cost the captain the rest of his career
unless it was done on orders.

Never cared to find out.

Lew




LL

"LDosser"

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 11/03/2010 9:49 PM

14/03/2010 2:12 PM

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:45:29 -0800, the infamous "LDosser"
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:30:18 -0800, the infamous "Kerry Montgomery"
>>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Larry Jaques" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You may be right, but I was already watching TV when the series
>>>>>> ended,
>>>>>> so I'm sure I watched some of the episodes with the family. When Dad
>>>>>> retired from the USAF, we moved to LoCal and he took me to see some
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the subs on display in San Diego. That was way cool.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Back to TV, I vividly remember these: SeaQuest ('93, with Stephanie
>>>>>> Beacham and Rosalind Allen, hubbahubba), the SeaView ('61), Sea Hunt
>>>>>> ('58-61, with Lloyd Bridges.)
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>> Next time you are in Cleveland, you van visit the COD, a WWII
>>>>> submarine,
>>>>> permanently on display.
>>>>>
>>>>> Next door is the Rock & Roll hall of Fame.
>>>>>
>>>>> You get to kill two birds with one stone.
>>>
>>> So give me a real reason to visit Cleavage, Oh10, eh?
>>
>>It's only 125 miles from Tony Packos.
>
> And that is...?

The best Hungarian Hot Dogs on the Planet!

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "Lew Hodgett" on 11/03/2010 9:49 PM

14/03/2010 8:24 AM

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:45:29 -0800, the infamous "LDosser"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:30:18 -0800, the infamous "Kerry Montgomery"
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>>
>>>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Larry Jaques" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You may be right, but I was already watching TV when the series ended,
>>>>> so I'm sure I watched some of the episodes with the family. When Dad
>>>>> retired from the USAF, we moved to LoCal and he took me to see some of
>>>>> the subs on display in San Diego. That was way cool.
>>>>>
>>>>> Back to TV, I vividly remember these: SeaQuest ('93, with Stephanie
>>>>> Beacham and Rosalind Allen, hubbahubba), the SeaView ('61), Sea Hunt
>>>>> ('58-61, with Lloyd Bridges.)
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>> Next time you are in Cleveland, you van visit the COD, a WWII submarine,
>>>> permanently on display.
>>>>
>>>> Next door is the Rock & Roll hall of Fame.
>>>>
>>>> You get to kill two birds with one stone.
>>
>> So give me a real reason to visit Cleavage, Oh10, eh?
>
>It's only 125 miles from Tony Packos.

And that is...?

--
No matter how cynical you are, it is impossible to keep up.
--Lily Tomlin

LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 1:18 PM


Robatoy wrote:

I thoroughly despise jet skis..... to be more precise, I thoroughly
despise the Great Unwashed who seem to see the need to get drunk and
destroy the very expensive peace and quiet one pays for on the shores
of otherwise untainted inland lakes.
--------------------------------------------
Want an arguement?

Change the subject.

If ever there was a time for Darwin to kick in.

Lew


LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 2:18 PM

Robatoy wrote:

We could start an argument on the spelling of argument, but what ARE
you talking about?
------------------
Try jet skis, then toss in stink boats.

> If ever there was a time for Darwin to kick in.

Explain that, please.
--------------------------------
In order to get the keys to one of those pieces of garbage, you have
to prove that you have no more than two brain cells, one of which is
dead.

Left to their own devices, Darwin kicks in.

Same applies to the SeaRay crowd.


Lew


LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 5:06 PM


Robatoy wrote:

> WTF ARE those things?

In polite society, they are known as "STINK FUCKS".

Take your choice, jet skis, motorcycles, power boats, snowmobiles,
etc.

They all are loud and they all stink.

Lew

Lew


LM

"Lee Michaels"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 8:25 PM


"Morris Dovey" wrote
>
> Propulsion will be essentially a straight path with a tee connection to
> the engine between a pair of check valves. During the expansion half of
> the cycle water will be discharged rearward, and during the contraction
> half of the cycle water will be sucked in from the forward direction.
>
> I don't need to go fast - I just need to come _back_. :)
>
Wasn't it Mr Natural who said that you didn't need to move fast. Just look
cool.

He also said, "Keep on truckin'."


LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 5:48 PM


"CW" wrote:
> I guess it's safe to say you wouldn't like my Harley. It sets off
> car alarms.
-----------------------------------------
I rode in high school. Sold it to go to school and never looked back.

My landlord was a major supplier to H/D.

He got hit on his bike, saved his foot, but he will never walk right
again.

Lew


LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 11:10 PM


"Morris Dovey" wrote:


> Not necessarily. The control portion can be as
> tiny/simple/inexpensive as this:
<snip>

> and small 12 VDC automotive motors with appropriate reduction
> gearing driving lead screws should be adequate for positioning. I'd
> guess that a marine/deep discharge battery should be enough for the
> test drive.
-----------------------------------------
What provisions do you plan to marinize this stuff to survive in
either fresh or salt water?

Lew


LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

13/03/2010 2:28 PM

"Morris Dovey" wrote:

> I'm thinking this will be a one-voyage event - what do you have in
> mind?
--------------------------------------
If life of device is spent around water, then steel, other than
galvanized, won't survive and brass is no good around salt water.

So it depends on how long is the install life before actually being
asked to perform task on how you approach the problem.

Lew


Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 1:58 PM

On Mar 10, 4:01=A0pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
> pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
> water.
>
>
>
> Zz Yzx wrote:
> >>http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.htm..=
.

Funny thing is, that she would probably do 42 kts with 50,000 HP and
the next 2 knots would take 3 times as much. Such is the rule of
displacement vessels. To take that one theoretical step further, if
they wanted to go 46 knots, they's need 400,000 HP. 47kt 1 million. 50
kts a bezllion HP

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Robatoy on 10/03/2010 1:58 PM

11/03/2010 7:59 PM

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:10:15 -0500, the infamous "Lee Michaels"
<leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> scrawled the following:

>
><[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>And last but not least, 100 stunning pics everyone should see. There
>>>are some real doozies here: http://tinyurl.com/y9oha8e
>
>Thanks for that. She also runs the website
>
>http://www.furrytalk.com/
>
>which has huge numbers of cute animal pictures.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! ;)

Did you know: that a baby giraffe is born over 6' off the ground and
its mother dumps it on its head at birth? She can't squat so the baby
has a very hard time starting out in the world.

--
There is no such thing as limits to growth, because there are no limits
to the human capacity for intelligence, imagination, and wonder.
--Ronald Reagan

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Robatoy on 10/03/2010 1:58 PM

11/03/2010 8:04 PM

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:03:10 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>On Mar 11, 7:26 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:21:37 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>> >On Mar 11, 10:53 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> I can't wait to see the next hydroplaning aircraft carrier!
>>
>> >One of my all-time favourite photographs:
>>
>> >Raw energy at it's glorious finest
>>
>> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/WHeeee.jpg
>>
>> Cool.  Is that thing listing from just going over a humongous swell,
>> or what?
>>
>Just a hard turn at good speed. here's another one:
>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/HARRRDtoPORT.jpg

"Lt. Cmdr. Hudson, how many times have I told you not not SKID the
Carrier? Go to your quarters without dinner!"


>And the spookiest picture ever...
>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/chaiten5.jpg

That's a black and evil cloud if I ever saw one, alright.
<shudder> Post a copy of THAT on your front window on Halloween night
and watch the candy giveaway count go way down!

OK, enough computer for one night. I'm off to bed to get back to
Stephen Hunter's _Black Light_ sniper mystery.

--
There is no such thing as limits to growth, because there are no limits
to the human capacity for intelligence, imagination, and wonder.
--Ronald Reagan

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 2:44 PM

On Mar 12, 5:22=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/12/10 12:42 PM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > I thoroughly despise jet skis..... to be more precise, I thoroughly
> > despise the Great Unwashed who seem to see the need to get drunk and
> > destroy the very expensive peace and quiet one pays for on the shores
> > of otherwise untainted inland lakes.
>
> I'm with you one that.... add to the list anything with unnecessarily
> loud engines, including Pick-up trucks and Motorcycles.
>
> You Harley riders will take issue with me, but they are nothing more
> than a "look at me" device. =A0"Ooo, look at me, I'm so cool, I drive a
> ridiculously loud motorcycle. =A0F#@k the rest of civilization and *your*
> relaxation, I have a right to be loud. =A0After all, I'm a dentist all
> week and need an outlet for my inner beast. =A0Oh yeah, and I have a smal=
l
> pecker." =A0 :-)
>
Angela is convinced that there has to be a direct inverse relationship
between the size of a guy's SUV tires and the size of his dick.
I mean her girlfriends all just swoon at the sight of a monster
truck..:-)
I used to drive a MiniCooperS in university. Eh? Eh? =3D0)
(Robbie who remembers almost missing a rent payment because he
couldn't turn down a deal on 4 minilites. Turns out the guy that sold
them to me needed his rent money. I felt bad about that.)

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 9:21 AM

On Mar 11, 10:53=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:39:38 -0700, the infamous Doug Winterburn
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Robert Bonomi wrote:
> >> In article <[email protected]>,
> >> HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Robatoy wrote:
> >>>> On Mar 10, 4:01 pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>> Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
> >>>>> pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
> >>>>> water.
>
> >>>>> Zz Yzx wrote:
> >>>>>>>http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.=
htm...
> >>>> Funny thing is, that she would probably do 42 kts with 50,000 HP and
> >>>> the next 2 knots would take 3 times as much. Such is the rule of
> >>>> displacement vessels. To take that one theoretical step further, if
> >>>> they wanted to go 46 knots, they's need 400,000 HP. 47kt 1 million. =
50
> >>>> kts a bezllion HP
> >>> I think 55 knots or so is the theoretical maximum a vessel can move t=
hrough
> >>> the water, irrespective of the power pushing it.
>
> >> Nope. =A0not even close
>
> >> Currently, unlimited power-boat races are in the 160MPH range. in year=
s past,
> >> they got up into the 200 MPH range, but engine/fuel restrictions have =
brought
> >> the speeds down.
>
> >> 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>
> >> Some torpedoes -- which travel entirely underwater -- have sustained s=
peeds
> >> well over 100 knots.
>
> >unlimiteds aren't displacement boats, they're hydroplanes. =A0Cigarette
> >boats are also on plane at speed and therefore not displacement vessels.
>
> I can't wait to see the next hydroplaning aircraft carrier!
>

One of my all-time favourite photographs:

Raw energy at it's glorious finest

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/WHeeee.jpg

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 4:26 PM

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:21:37 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>On Mar 11, 10:53 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I can't wait to see the next hydroplaning aircraft carrier!
>
>One of my all-time favourite photographs:
>
>Raw energy at it's glorious finest
>
>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/WHeeee.jpg

Cool. Is that thing listing from just going over a humongous swell,
or what?

Here's mine. (Dad was an Air Force pilot; this isn't him.)
http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/OddPics/Images/sonicboom.jpg

More "power of nature" shots I love:

http://tinyurl.com/ygoavfz trees live on

http://tinyurl.com/c8zkx7 lightning (no "e", guys)

http://tinyurl.com/y9t447t Niagra frozen 1911 (pre-AGWK)

http://tinyurl.com/6jq8w8 we left Anchorage 10 years before the quake

And last but not least, 100 stunning pics everyone should see. There
are some real doozies here: http://tinyurl.com/y9oha8e

--
There is no such thing as limits to growth, because there are no limits
to the human capacity for intelligence, imagination, and wonder.
--Ronald Reagan

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 9:09 AM

On Mar 12, 10:57=A0am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/11/2010 8:15 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16 airborne. I
> > miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.
>
> Just wondering...
>
> If I reworked a Hoby as a jet boat, how much power do you guess it might
> take to push it along at, say, 5 and 10 mph?
>
> I might be about to set my beer aside and try something goofy...
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Jet? As in water jet or Jet Jet? *s* But you wouldn't be talking
fluidyne here, eh?

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 1:18 PM

On Mar 11, 3:11=A0pm, "Nonny" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:d17c17dd-3e2a-484a-89c1-d7d2ed78dbf1@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 10, 10:45 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> "Robert Bonomi" wrote:
> >> > 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>
> >> 'Cigarette' boats AKA: Bathtub toys.
>
> >> I used to have to listen to there bull crap about how
> >> 'Cigarette'
> >> boats were "Blue Water" boats.
>
> >> Used to piss off those guys no end when they would schedule a
> >> race
> >> then have to stay tied up at dock when a front would come thru
> >> the
> >> night before and they couldn't handle the 4-6 ft chop with
> >> 15-20 knots
> >> of wind that resulted.
>
> >> I'd hang a 110 jib, tuck a reef in the main and go out and
> >> play.
>
> >> Gawd did that piss them off.
>
> >> I just grinned and got a cold one.
>
> >> Lew
>
> > 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16
> > airborne. I
> > miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.
>
> I pitchpoled my 16 several times. =A0It's amazing how far a body can
> fly from the back of a trampoline. <grin>
>
Especially is shallow waters...LOL

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

13/03/2010 9:28 PM

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:36:47 -0600, the infamous Morris Dovey
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>On 3/13/2010 11:06 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:45:55 -0600, the infamous Morris Dovey
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>> On 3/13/2010 12:30 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>>>> On 3/12/2010 11:44 PM, Nonny wrote:
>>>>> With the rapid and frequent movement of the small Hobie, wouldn't a
>>>>> solar tracking system be large, complex and take a good deal of power to
>>>>> operate effectively?
>>>>
>>>> Not necessarily. The control portion can be as tiny/simple/inexpensive
>>>> as this:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x (warning: large page!)
>>>>
>>>> and small 12 VDC automotive motors with appropriate reduction gearing
>>>> driving lead screws should be adequate for positioning. I'd guess that a
>>>> marine/deep discharge battery should be enough for the test drive.
>>>
>>> Oops - I meant to point out (but forgot) that the tracking system's
>>> primary job will be to accommodate the inertia of the collector - to
>>> keep it in the same orientation while the boat moves under it. This
>>> should provide minimal loading on the motors.
>>>
>>> Tracking the apparent movement of the sun will, I think, be smallest
>>> part of the job.
>>
>> How about air-loading some cylinders connected to the collector
>> system's (weighted) base to allow semi-free pivoting? It would
>> counteract the rocking motion of the boat to a great extent so
>> feedback from the position sensors would be diminished, lessening the
>> collector's "need to adjust" sensing.
>
>I like the idea, but am /really/ trying to avoid "scope creep" here. :)
>
>There's another aspect - I plan on posting photos and videos of whatever
>I end up with, and I don't want any of that to be easily adapted for
>pickup truck mountable fire control or weapons platforms. :(

No doubt _that_ has already been done six ways from Sunday. Don't
sweat it. People doing that would have lots of money to buy
sophisticated compensation units.


>> Are you using some sort of time delay, too?
>
>Duane Johnson's (redrok.com) little LED-based controller incorporates an
>adjustable delay feature that I suspect will end up being tweaked
>immediately before and during the voyage.

Yeah, prolly so.

--
I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study
mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and
philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation,
commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to
study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and
porcelain.
-- John Adams

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 6:58 PM

On Mar 10, 9:31=A0pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On Mar 10, 4:01 pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
> >> pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
> >> water.
>
> >> Zz Yzx wrote:
> >>>>http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.htm=
...
>
> > Funny thing is, that she would probably do 42 kts with 50,000 HP and
> > the next 2 knots would take 3 times as much. Such is the rule of
> > displacement vessels. To take that one theoretical step further, if
> > they wanted to go 46 knots, they's need 400,000 HP. 47kt 1 million. 50
> > kts a bezllion HP
>
> I think 55 knots or so is the theoretical maximum a vessel can move throu=
gh
> the water, irrespective of the power pushing it.
>
> As the speed increases, the vessel begins to outrun its bow wave. It then
> has to ride over the bow wave or push through it. The faster the vessel, =
the
> bigger the bow wave.
>
> Sort of like the increase in mass with velocity and, as the velocity
> approaches the speed of light, the mass becomes infinite. Only not exactl=
y.

Not exactly indeed.

The maximum speed of a displacement vessel is determined by its
length. The longer, the faster.... with the same power.

kk

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 6:31 PM

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:26:43 -0800, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:21:37 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
><[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>>On Mar 11, 10:53 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I can't wait to see the next hydroplaning aircraft carrier!
>>
>>One of my all-time favourite photographs:
>>
>>Raw energy at it's glorious finest
>>
>>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/WHeeee.jpg
>
>Cool. Is that thing listing from just going over a humongous swell,
>or what?

Think skid (notice the bubbles off the bow). The swell is his.

>Here's mine. (Dad was an Air Force pilot; this isn't him.)
>http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/OddPics/Images/sonicboom.jpg

Vapor condensing. I've seen some amazing pictures similar to this.

>More "power of nature" shots I love:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/ygoavfz trees live on
>
>http://tinyurl.com/c8zkx7 lightning (no "e", guys)
>
>http://tinyurl.com/y9t447t Niagra frozen 1911 (pre-AGWK)
>
>http://tinyurl.com/6jq8w8 we left Anchorage 10 years before the quake
>
>And last but not least, 100 stunning pics everyone should see. There
>are some real doozies here: http://tinyurl.com/y9oha8e

PB

Pat Barber

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 4:01 PM

Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
water.


Zz Yzx wrote:

>> http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.html?page=2

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Pat Barber on 10/03/2010 4:01 PM

11/03/2010 7:21 PM

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:31:43 -0600, the infamous
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> scrawled the
following:

>On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:26:43 -0800, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:21:37 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
>><[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>>On Mar 11, 10:53 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I can't wait to see the next hydroplaning aircraft carrier!
>>>
>>>One of my all-time favourite photographs:
>>>
>>>Raw energy at it's glorious finest
>>>
>>>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/WHeeee.jpg
>>
>>Cool. Is that thing listing from just going over a humongous swell,
>>or what?
>
>Think skid (notice the bubbles off the bow). The swell is his.

Wull, ya just don't "whip a U-ey" in a boat which takes a mile and a
half to stop or turn.


>>Here's mine. (Dad was an Air Force pilot; this isn't him.)
>>http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/OddPics/Images/sonicboom.jpg
>
>Vapor condensing. I've seen some amazing pictures similar to this.

Yeah, me, too, but this was the first and best I've seen.

--
There is no such thing as limits to growth, because there are no limits
to the human capacity for intelligence, imagination, and wonder.
--Ronald Reagan

Ns

"Nonny"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 9:44 PM

With the rapid and frequent movement of the small Hobie, wouldn't
a solar tracking system be large, complex and take a good deal of
power to operate effectively?
--
Nonny
When we talk to God, we're praying,
but when God talks to us,
we're schizophrenic.
What's the deal?


bR

[email protected] (Robert Bonomi)

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 10:51 PM

In article <[email protected]>,
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 3/12/2010 6:28 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> Morris Dovey<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> With a platform like the Hobie, I think I can mount a tracking solar
>>> concentrator and have 3-4 kW of input power to work with and (perhaps)
>>> 50% of that in pump power.
>>
>> That'll give you a theoretical roughly 2HP. Enough to move it around,
>> but -not- with much speed. Think 'trolling motor'.
>>
>> OTOH, if you can fit one concentrator/fluidyne, maybe you can get 2-3 of
>> 'em on board. Now, you're approaching the capabilities of a 5HP outboard.
>> That should be enough to leave a wake -- at least a small one.<grin>
>
>Two is a definite maybe - but from a practical standpoint, just one will
>be an accomplishment, and a two-mile round trip on a calm, sunny day
>should be enough to stir up a bit of interest. It might even be a good
>thing to set a record that'd be easy for someone else to beat. :)

Would that be a 'solar-powered boat' record?

How about a _water-powered_ boat record? (*THAT* just might appeal to Guiness! :)


Or, if you *really* want to stir up interest, you find a way use something like
like carp, or catfish, for thermal mass. Then you lit it slip that the boat
is powered by a "fish/sun reactor" (best said when slurred a little). An
'inherently-safe, non-radioactive' device of your own design. Hang a pole
over the stern, and claim you've 'gone fission'.

If you're going to have fun with the idea, you may as well *REALLY* have fun
with it. <GRIN>
>
>>> Heh - it just occurred to me that if I needed a horn, I could disconnect
>>> the pump and use the engine (at say, [email protected]} to warn off the jet
>>> skiers. :)
>>
>> That hurts just to *think* about it.
>
>Here's a video showing a couple of very crude pipe oscillators being
>driven with a small propane flame:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L5fKWe5El4&feature=channel
>
>It's an application of the gas laws that I'd never thought about, and
>some really serious heat (say, about 200 suns on 8' of tube) should
>produce a pretty good hoot. :-]

*LONG* time ago, there was a 'traveling science show' that went around to the
high schools. one of the things they brought was a bunch of cardboard tubes
(from mailing-tube size up to a 16' long, circa 8" ID, carpet roller). they
each had a section of metal screening in them a short distance in from one
end. Hold it carefully vertical over a high-output Bunsen burner, and let
the screen heat up, then remove it from the heat source. Fairly shortly
it would start to 'sing' -- louder, and louder, as it found it's "voice".

The carpet roller was -really- impressive; one might say profundo so. :)

Ns

"Nonny"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

13/03/2010 5:27 PM


"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 3/13/2010 12:30 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>> On 3/12/2010 11:44 PM, Nonny wrote:
>>> With the rapid and frequent movement of the small Hobie,
>>> wouldn't a
>>> solar tracking system be large, complex and take a good deal
>>> of power to
>>> operate effectively?
>>
>> Not necessarily. The control portion can be as
>> tiny/simple/inexpensive
>> as this:
>>
>> http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x (warning: large page!)
>>
>> and small 12 VDC automotive motors with appropriate reduction
>> gearing
>> driving lead screws should be adequate for positioning. I'd
>> guess that a
>> marine/deep discharge battery should be enough for the test
>> drive.
>
> Oops - I meant to point out (but forgot) that the tracking
> system's primary job will be to accommodate the inertia of the
> collector - to keep it in the same orientation while the boat
> moves under it. This should provide minimal loading on the
> motors.
>
> Tracking the apparent movement of the sun will, I think, be
> smallest part of the job.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Interesting. I'm not sure which tracker you're going to use, but
there's a pretty wide choice.

My concern, again, would be the combination of speed and power
needed to orient the collector. IMHO, it would go up considerably
with requirements for accuracy. If a fairly wide range of "almost
OK" would be acceptable, then a slower actuator and less power
would be needed. When the Hobie bobs in a wave or turns sharply,
it's going to put one heck of a load on the actuators, I think.

BTW, if I was planning something that required tracking, I'd
consider an X-shaped baffle inside a coffee can with solar cells
located on each of the 4 corners where the X comes together.
Then, any pointing away from the sun would create more voltage on
one or two of the cells. Two relays- one for horizontal and one
for vertical movement could be used, with two coils per relay
moving a center contact. As one coil would get more power from
the solar cell, it would draw the contactor toward it and thus
make an electrical contact. With no light or with a balanced
"shadow," from the X-shaped baffle, the pull on either side of the
contactor would be equal, and thus no current to an actuator. I'm
sure that this has been done many times by others.

--
Nonny
When we talk to God, we're praying,
but when God talks to us,
we're schizophrenic.
What's the deal?


Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 1:33 PM

On Mar 12, 4:18=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> I thoroughly despise jet skis..... to be more precise, I thoroughly
> despise the Great Unwashed who seem to see the need to get drunk and
> destroy the very expensive peace and quiet one pays for on the shores
> of otherwise untainted inland lakes.
> --------------------------------------------

I will entertain you, Lew...for a lark:

> Want an arguement?

We could start an argument on the spelling of argument, but what ARE
you talking about?

> Change the subject.

WHAT subject? The one where Morris mentions his warning off jet-skis,
and my distaste for them? (Hinting at running them over instead, or
was that too deep for you?)

> If ever there was a time for Darwin to kick in.

Explain that, please.

r

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 6:03 PM

On Mar 11, 7:26=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:21:37 -0800 (PST), the infamous Robatoy
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
> >On Mar 11, 10:53=A0am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I can't wait to see the next hydroplaning aircraft carrier!
>
> >One of my all-time favourite photographs:
>
> >Raw energy at it's glorious finest
>
> >http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/WHeeee.jpg
>
> Cool. =A0Is that thing listing from just going over a humongous swell,
> or what?
>
Just a hard turn at good speed. here's another one:
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/HARRRDtoPORT.jpg

And the spookiest picture ever...
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/chaiten5.jpg

LL

"LDosser"

in reply to Robatoy on 11/03/2010 6:03 PM

13/03/2010 9:45 PM

"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:30:18 -0800, the infamous "Kerry Montgomery"
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>>
>>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Larry Jaques" wrote:
>>>
>>>> You may be right, but I was already watching TV when the series ended,
>>>> so I'm sure I watched some of the episodes with the family. When Dad
>>>> retired from the USAF, we moved to LoCal and he took me to see some of
>>>> the subs on display in San Diego. That was way cool.
>>>>
>>>> Back to TV, I vividly remember these: SeaQuest ('93, with Stephanie
>>>> Beacham and Rosalind Allen, hubbahubba), the SeaView ('61), Sea Hunt
>>>> ('58-61, with Lloyd Bridges.)
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> Next time you are in Cleveland, you van visit the COD, a WWII submarine,
>>> permanently on display.
>>>
>>> Next door is the Rock & Roll hall of Fame.
>>>
>>> You get to kill two birds with one stone.
>
> So give me a real reason to visit Cleavage, Oh10, eh?

It's only 125 miles from Tony Packos.

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Robatoy on 11/03/2010 6:03 PM

13/03/2010 9:35 PM

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 15:30:18 -0800, the infamous "Kerry Montgomery"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>
>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Larry Jaques" wrote:
>>
>>> You may be right, but I was already watching TV when the series ended,
>>> so I'm sure I watched some of the episodes with the family. When Dad
>>> retired from the USAF, we moved to LoCal and he took me to see some of
>>> the subs on display in San Diego. That was way cool.
>>>
>>> Back to TV, I vividly remember these: SeaQuest ('93, with Stephanie
>>> Beacham and Rosalind Allen, hubbahubba), the SeaView ('61), Sea Hunt
>>> ('58-61, with Lloyd Bridges.)
>>
>> --------------------------------------------
>> Next time you are in Cleveland, you van visit the COD, a WWII submarine,
>> permanently on display.
>>
>> Next door is the Rock & Roll hall of Fame.
>>
>> You get to kill two birds with one stone.

So give me a real reason to visit Cleavage, Oh10, eh?


>> Episodes of "Sea Hunt" still appear on late night TV here along with "Mr.
>> Ed".
>>
>> Can "Gilligan's Island" be far behind?
>
>Lew,
>Recently heard that a re-make of Gilligan's Island is in the works.

"Reality based", no doubt. I'm sure glad I turned in my satellite
dish.

--
I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study
mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and
philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation,
commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to
study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and
porcelain.
-- John Adams

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 6:15 AM

On Mar 10, 10:45=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robert Bonomi" wrote:
> > 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>
> 'Cigarette' boats AKA: Bathtub toys.
>
> I used to have to listen to there bull crap about how 'Cigarette'
> boats were "Blue Water" boats.
>
> Used to piss off those guys no end when they would schedule a race
> then have to stay tied up at dock when a front would come thru the
> night before and they couldn't handle the 4-6 ft chop with 15-20 knots
> of wind that resulted.
>
> I'd hang a 110 jib, tuck a reef in the main and go out and play.
>
> Gawd did that piss them off.
>
> I just grinned and got a cold one.
>
> Lew

15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16 airborne. I
miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.

Rc

Robatoy

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 10:42 AM

On Mar 12, 1:32=A0pm, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/12/2010 11:09 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > On Mar 12, 10:57 am, Morris Dovey<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
> >> On 3/11/2010 8:15 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> >>> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16 airborne. =
I
> >>> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.
>
> >> Just wondering...
>
> >> If I reworked a Hoby as a jet boat, how much power do you guess it mig=
ht
> >> take to push it along at, say, 5 and 10 mph?
>
> >> I might be about to set my beer aside and try something goofy...
>
> > Jet? As in water jet or Jet Jet? *s* But you wouldn't be talking
> > fluidyne here, eh?
>
> Yup - fluidyne water jet. I've been doing a lot of re-design and it
> appears that I can boost both the efficiency and the oscillation rate to
> the limits of mechanical check valves.
>
> With a platform like the Hoby, I think I can mount a tracking solar
> concentrator and have 3-4 kW of input power to work with and (perhaps)
> 50% of that in pump power.
>
> My problem is that I'm not sure that'd be enough to pull a twin-hull
> platform.
>
> Heh - it just occurred to me that if I needed a horn, I could disconnect
> the pump and use the engine (at say, [email protected]} to warn off the jet
> skiers. :)
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

I thoroughly despise jet skis..... to be more precise, I thoroughly
despise the Great Unwashed who seem to see the need to get drunk and
destroy the very expensive peace and quiet one pays for on the shores
of otherwise untainted inland lakes.

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 7:46 AM

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:01:09 -0500, the infamous Pat Barber
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
>pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
>water.

If you thought that was a sharp bow profile (which I feel is pretty
much standard for destroyers and other navy ships) check this out:
http://tinyurl.com/yeurjz6 The HSV-2 Swift, a 323-foot U.S. Navy
high-speed vessel with a real knife-edge bow and outriggers.

I wonder how much wood they burn in her boilers. (lame attempt to
bring it back on topic)

--
There is no such thing as limits to growth, because there are no limits
to the human capacity for intelligence, imagination, and wonder.
-- Ronald Reagan

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 11:52 PM

On 3/10/2010 10:39 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> Robert Bonomi wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>,
>> HeyBub<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Robatoy wrote:
>>>> On Mar 10, 4:01 pm, Pat Barber<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
>>>>> pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
>>>>> water.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Zz Yzx wrote:
>>>>>>> http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.htm...
>>>> Funny thing is, that she would probably do 42 kts with 50,000 HP and
>>>> the next 2 knots would take 3 times as much. Such is the rule of
>>>> displacement vessels. To take that one theoretical step further, if
>>>> they wanted to go 46 knots, they's need 400,000 HP. 47kt 1 million. 50
>>>> kts a bezllion HP
>>> I think 55 knots or so is the theoretical maximum a vessel can move through
>>> the water, irrespective of the power pushing it.
>>
>> Nope. not even close
>>
>> Currently, unlimited power-boat races are in the 160MPH range. in years past,
>> they got up into the 200 MPH range, but engine/fuel restrictions have brought
>> the speeds down.
>>
>> 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>>
>> Some torpedoes -- which travel entirely underwater -- have sustained speeds
>> well over 100 knots.
>
> unlimiteds aren't displacement boats, they're hydroplanes. Cigarette
> boats are also on plane at speed and therefore not displacement vessels.
> My physicist buddy that does torpedo testing says max speed for a
> conventional torpedo is 55 knots, but supercavitating torpedoes are
> capable of much higher speeds by essentially traveling in a gas bubble
> and are therefore also not technically [water] displacement devices.

Your physicist buddy is playing word games. The torpedo is going so
fast that flow detaches from its surface at the transition from the nose
cone to the body. But it is most assuredly travelling in water.

In any case the British seem to be laboring under the misconception that
their Spearfish torpedo can exceed 60 knots. Perhaps he should call
them and inform them of their error.




LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 5:40 PM

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:15:52 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

>
> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16 airborne. I
> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.

I'm not a boat nut, but a friend of mine had an old wooden sailboat in
Southern California. I believe it was a ketch -20 some feet long -
anyway a rig he could handle by himself. Oak with a heavy lead keel. He
claimed it wouldn't even get moving till the Coast Guard put out the
small craft warning :-).





--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

cc

"chaniarts"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 1:27 PM

Nonny wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:d17c17dd-3e2a-484a-89c1-d7d2ed78dbf1@q15g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>> On Mar 10, 10:45 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> "Robert Bonomi" wrote:
>>>> 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>>>
>>> 'Cigarette' boats AKA: Bathtub toys.
>>>
>>> I used to have to listen to there bull crap about how
>>> 'Cigarette'
>>> boats were "Blue Water" boats.
>>>
>>> Used to piss off those guys no end when they would schedule a
>>> race
>>> then have to stay tied up at dock when a front would come thru
>>> the
>>> night before and they couldn't handle the 4-6 ft chop with
>>> 15-20 knots
>>> of wind that resulted.
>>>
>>> I'd hang a 110 jib, tuck a reef in the main and go out and
>>> play.
>>>
>>> Gawd did that piss them off.
>>>
>>> I just grinned and got a cold one.
>>>
>>> Lew
>>
>> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16
>> airborne. I
>> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.
>
> I pitchpoled my 16 several times. It's amazing how far a body can
> fly from the back of a trampoline. <grin>

try a more modern cat, like a nacra or larger prindle, without a spin. you
have to do something really stupid and go out of your way to pitchpole a
prindle 19 or 18.2. i've never come even really close to pitchpoling my p19
and i've been out in some heavy winds. they have wave piercing hull forms,
so go through rather than up and down, so it's much harder to catch the nose
and trip.

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 5:02 PM

On 3/11/2010 12:40 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 06:15:52 -0800, Robatoy wrote:
>
>>
>> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16 airborne. I
>> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.
>
> I'm not a boat nut, but a friend of mine had an old wooden sailboat in
> Southern California. I believe it was a ketch -20 some feet long -
> anyway a rig he could handle by himself. Oak with a heavy lead keel. He
> claimed it wouldn't even get moving till the Coast Guard put out the
> small craft warning :-).

Speaking of sail, the thing that amazes me is the speeds that are being
sustained under sail. At the rate things are going it won't be long
before United States' transatlantic record falls to a sailing
yacht--last August Banque Populaire 5 came within about 9 hours of
beating it. 32 knots under sail, all the way across. I remember when
Crossbow first managed to struggle over 30 knots on a short measured
course and now that's being bettered for thousands of miles at a
stretch, and here's what a big boat going fast looks like today
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFGS7YCDk3Y>. Same boat flipped at
SIXTY-ONE KNOTS.

LB

Larry Blanchard

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 2:39 AM

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:03:10 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> And the spookiest picture ever...
> http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/chaiten5.jpg

Wow! That is one mean funnel.

--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 9:57 AM

On 3/11/2010 8:15 AM, Robatoy wrote:

> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16 airborne. I
> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.

Just wondering...

If I reworked a Hoby as a jet boat, how much power do you guess it might
take to push it along at, say, 5 and 10 mph?

I might be about to set my beer aside and try something goofy...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 12:32 PM

On 3/12/2010 11:09 AM, Robatoy wrote:
> On Mar 12, 10:57 am, Morris Dovey<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 3/11/2010 8:15 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>>
>>> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16 airborne. I
>>> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.
>>
>> Just wondering...
>>
>> If I reworked a Hoby as a jet boat, how much power do you guess it might
>> take to push it along at, say, 5 and 10 mph?
>>
>> I might be about to set my beer aside and try something goofy...
>
> Jet? As in water jet or Jet Jet? *s* But you wouldn't be talking
> fluidyne here, eh?

Yup - fluidyne water jet. I've been doing a lot of re-design and it
appears that I can boost both the efficiency and the oscillation rate to
the limits of mechanical check valves.

With a platform like the Hoby, I think I can mount a tracking solar
concentrator and have 3-4 kW of input power to work with and (perhaps)
50% of that in pump power.

My problem is that I'm not sure that'd be enough to pull a twin-hull
platform.

Heh - it just occurred to me that if I needed a horn, I could disconnect
the pump and use the engine (at say, [email protected]} to warn off the jet
skiers. :)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

JC

"J. Clarke"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 2:27 PM

On 3/12/2010 1:32 PM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 3/12/2010 11:09 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>> On Mar 12, 10:57 am, Morris Dovey<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2010 8:15 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>>>
>>>> 15-20 knots and 6-ft chop wouldn't even get my old Hoby 16 airborne. I
>>>> miss that thing, but I couldn't take the pounding at this age.
>>>
>>> Just wondering...
>>>
>>> If I reworked a Hoby as a jet boat, how much power do you guess it might
>>> take to push it along at, say, 5 and 10 mph?
>>>
>>> I might be about to set my beer aside and try something goofy...
>>
>> Jet? As in water jet or Jet Jet? *s* But you wouldn't be talking
>> fluidyne here, eh?
>
> Yup - fluidyne water jet. I've been doing a lot of re-design and it
> appears that I can boost both the efficiency and the oscillation rate to
> the limits of mechanical check valves.
>
> With a platform like the Hoby, I think I can mount a tracking solar
> concentrator and have 3-4 kW of input power to work with and (perhaps)
> 50% of that in pump power.
>
> My problem is that I'm not sure that'd be enough to pull a twin-hull
> platform.
>
> Heh - it just occurred to me that if I needed a horn, I could disconnect
> the pump and use the engine (at say, [email protected]} to warn off the jet
> skiers. :)

That should be about the same power output as the old Evinrude Lightwin.
Not gonna move a Hobie _fast_ but it will move it at a useful speed
assuming you don't lose much efficiency in the propulsor.

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 2:39 PM

On 3/12/2010 1:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

> That should be about the same power output as the old Evinrude Lightwin.
> Not gonna move a Hobie _fast_ but it will move it at a useful speed
> assuming you don't lose much efficiency in the propulsor.

Thanks, John, that's what I needed to know. I'm not sure how well it's
going to work out, but that tells me that it's worth a try. The engine
isn't anywhere near as big a deal as the tracking system needed to keep
the collector pointed at the sun.

Propulsion will be essentially a straight path with a tee connection to
the engine between a pair of check valves. During the expansion half of
the cycle water will be discharged rearward, and during the contraction
half of the cycle water will be sucked in from the forward direction.

I don't need to go fast - I just need to come _back_. :)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

cc

"chaniarts"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 1:50 PM

Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 3/12/2010 1:27 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> That should be about the same power output as the old Evinrude
>> Lightwin. Not gonna move a Hobie _fast_ but it will move it at a
>> useful speed assuming you don't lose much efficiency in the
>> propulsor.
>
> Thanks, John, that's what I needed to know. I'm not sure how well it's
> going to work out, but that tells me that it's worth a try. The engine
> isn't anywhere near as big a deal as the tracking system needed to
> keep the collector pointed at the sun.
>
> Propulsion will be essentially a straight path with a tee connection
> to the engine between a pair of check valves. During the expansion
> half of the cycle water will be discharged rearward, and during the
> contraction half of the cycle water will be sucked in from the
> forward direction.
> I don't need to go fast - I just need to come _back_. :)

ron @ fastlane sailing in san diego (http://www.fastlanesailing.com/) has a
hobie with a hard deck and power boat console mounted on top. they run
theirs with an outboard, but i don't know how big it is. you might contact
him for further details.

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 3:56 PM

On 3/12/2010 2:50 PM, chaniarts wrote:

> ron @ fastlane sailing in san diego (http://www.fastlanesailing.com/) has a
> hobie with a hard deck and power boat console mounted on top. they run
> theirs with an outboard, but i don't know how big it is. you might contact
> him for further details.

I've stashed the link for when I have an engine ready for the job. First
I need to get engine and tracking system worked out. The Hobie (spelling
corrected) will be a rental boat, so whatever I come up with will be
something I can assemble and set in place at the marina, then lift
off/disassemble when I'm done.

Thanks!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

Mm

-MIKE-

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 4:22 PM

On 3/12/10 12:42 PM, Robatoy wrote:
> I thoroughly despise jet skis..... to be more precise, I thoroughly
> despise the Great Unwashed who seem to see the need to get drunk and
> destroy the very expensive peace and quiet one pays for on the shores
> of otherwise untainted inland lakes.

I'm with you one that.... add to the list anything with unnecessarily
loud engines, including Pick-up trucks and Motorcycles.

You Harley riders will take issue with me, but they are nothing more
than a "look at me" device. "Ooo, look at me, I'm so cool, I drive a
ridiculously loud motorcycle. F#@k the rest of civilization and *your*
relaxation, I have a right to be loud. After all, I'm a dentist all
week and need an outlet for my inner beast. Oh yeah, and I have a small
pecker." :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 8:54 PM

On 3/12/2010 6:28 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Morris Dovey<[email protected]> wrote:

>> With a platform like the Hobie, I think I can mount a tracking solar
>> concentrator and have 3-4 kW of input power to work with and (perhaps)
>> 50% of that in pump power.
>
> That'll give you a theoretical roughly 2HP. Enough to move it around,
> but -not- with much speed. Think 'trolling motor'.
>
> OTOH, if you can fit one concentrator/fluidyne, maybe you can get 2-3 of
> 'em on board. Now, you're approaching the capabilities of a 5HP outboard.
> That should be enough to leave a wake -- at least a small one.<grin>

Two is a definite maybe - but from a practical standpoint, just one will
be an accomplishment, and a two-mile round trip on a calm, sunny day
should be enough to stir up a bit of interest. It might even be a good
thing to set a record that'd be easy for someone else to beat. :)

>> Heh - it just occurred to me that if I needed a horn, I could disconnect
>> the pump and use the engine (at say, [email protected]} to warn off the jet
>> skiers. :)
>
> That hurts just to *think* about it.

Here's a video showing a couple of very crude pipe oscillators being
driven with a small propane flame:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L5fKWe5El4&feature=channel

It's an application of the gas laws that I'd never thought about, and
some really serious heat (say, about 200 suns on 8' of tube) should
produce a pretty good hoot. :-]

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

13/03/2010 12:30 AM

On 3/12/2010 11:44 PM, Nonny wrote:
> With the rapid and frequent movement of the small Hobie, wouldn't a
> solar tracking system be large, complex and take a good deal of power to
> operate effectively?

Not necessarily. The control portion can be as tiny/simple/inexpensive
as this:

http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x (warning: large page!)

and small 12 VDC automotive motors with appropriate reduction gearing
driving lead screws should be adequate for positioning. I'd guess that a
marine/deep discharge battery should be enough for the test drive.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

13/03/2010 1:28 AM

On 3/13/2010 1:10 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" wrote:
>
>
>> Not necessarily. The control portion can be as
>> tiny/simple/inexpensive as this:
> <snip>
>
>> and small 12 VDC automotive motors with appropriate reduction
>> gearing driving lead screws should be adequate for positioning. I'd
>> guess that a marine/deep discharge battery should be enough for the
>> test drive.
> -----------------------------------------
> What provisions do you plan to marinize this stuff to survive in
> either fresh or salt water?

I'm thinking this will be a one-voyage event - what do you have in mind?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

13/03/2010 1:45 AM

On 3/13/2010 12:30 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 3/12/2010 11:44 PM, Nonny wrote:
>> With the rapid and frequent movement of the small Hobie, wouldn't a
>> solar tracking system be large, complex and take a good deal of power to
>> operate effectively?
>
> Not necessarily. The control portion can be as tiny/simple/inexpensive
> as this:
>
> http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x (warning: large page!)
>
> and small 12 VDC automotive motors with appropriate reduction gearing
> driving lead screws should be adequate for positioning. I'd guess that a
> marine/deep discharge battery should be enough for the test drive.

Oops - I meant to point out (but forgot) that the tracking system's
primary job will be to accommodate the inertia of the collector - to
keep it in the same orientation while the boat moves under it. This
should provide minimal loading on the motors.

Tracking the apparent movement of the sun will, I think, be smallest
part of the job.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

13/03/2010 12:36 PM

On 3/13/2010 11:06 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:45:55 -0600, the infamous Morris Dovey
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>> On 3/13/2010 12:30 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>>> On 3/12/2010 11:44 PM, Nonny wrote:
>>>> With the rapid and frequent movement of the small Hobie, wouldn't a
>>>> solar tracking system be large, complex and take a good deal of power to
>>>> operate effectively?
>>>
>>> Not necessarily. The control portion can be as tiny/simple/inexpensive
>>> as this:
>>>
>>> http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x (warning: large page!)
>>>
>>> and small 12 VDC automotive motors with appropriate reduction gearing
>>> driving lead screws should be adequate for positioning. I'd guess that a
>>> marine/deep discharge battery should be enough for the test drive.
>>
>> Oops - I meant to point out (but forgot) that the tracking system's
>> primary job will be to accommodate the inertia of the collector - to
>> keep it in the same orientation while the boat moves under it. This
>> should provide minimal loading on the motors.
>>
>> Tracking the apparent movement of the sun will, I think, be smallest
>> part of the job.
>
> How about air-loading some cylinders connected to the collector
> system's (weighted) base to allow semi-free pivoting? It would
> counteract the rocking motion of the boat to a great extent so
> feedback from the position sensors would be diminished, lessening the
> collector's "need to adjust" sensing.

I like the idea, but am /really/ trying to avoid "scope creep" here. :)

There's another aspect - I plan on posting photos and videos of whatever
I end up with, and I don't want any of that to be easily adapted for
pickup truck mountable fire control or weapons platforms. :(

> Are you using some sort of time delay, too?

Duane Johnson's (redrok.com) little LED-based controller incorporates an
adjustable delay feature that I suspect will end up being tweaked
immediately before and during the voyage.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

13/03/2010 6:17 PM

On 3/13/2010 4:28 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking this will be a one-voyage event - what do you have in
>> mind?
> --------------------------------------
> If life of device is spent around water, then steel, other than
> galvanized, won't survive and brass is no good around salt water.
>
> So it depends on how long is the install life before actually being
> asked to perform task on how you approach the problem.

No problemo :o) We're sandbagging (again) in Iowa, but there's no danger
(yet) from salt water.

I'm hoping it won't take more than an hour to set up and worry over,
another hour for a two-mile round-trip, and then twenty minutes for
teardown.

Here's the most probable test site (watch for wrap):

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.820199,-93.74136&spn=0.024818,0.082397&z=15

I should be able to recycle most of the materials.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

14/03/2010 9:04 AM

On 3/13/2010 11:28 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:36:47 -0600, the infamous Morris Dovey
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>> There's another aspect - I plan on posting photos and videos of whatever
>> I end up with, and I don't want any of that to be easily adapted for
>> pickup truck mountable fire control or weapons platforms. :(
>
> No doubt _that_ has already been done six ways from Sunday. Don't
> sweat it. People doing that would have lots of money to buy
> sophisticated compensation units.

No doubt - but not by everyone who might like to have, and I'm not
inclined to provide a "how-to" for doing it on the cheap.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

MD

Morris Dovey

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

15/03/2010 10:41 AM

On 3/14/2010 9:04 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 3/13/2010 11:28 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:36:47 -0600, the infamous Morris Dovey
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>>> There's another aspect - I plan on posting photos and videos of whatever
>>> I end up with, and I don't want any of that to be easily adapted for
>>> pickup truck mountable fire control or weapons platforms. :(
>>
>> No doubt _that_ has already been done six ways from Sunday. *Don't
>> sweat it.* People doing that would have lots of money to buy
>> sophisticated compensation units.
>
> No doubt - but not by everyone who might like to have, and I'm not
> inclined to provide a "how-to" for doing it on the cheap.

I'd prefer not to sweat it, but do. By way of explanation let me share a
short thread I saved (OP had a middle-eastern name and was posting via
Google Groups from the UK):

comp.lang.c - 2006 July 20-21
Subject: Center of Contour

<start of thread>

Speed:

Could you please tell me what is the most efficient way of finding the
center of mass of the area enclosed by a closed contour.

I have a considerable circular region with streaks coming out of it in
either direction. Basically i want to find the center of the circular
region but it is getting offset due to the presence of connected
outlier segments.

I am working with binary images only.

Morris:

It's not really a difficult problem; but the answer would depend on what
you mean by "efficiency". Are you looking for the smallest code
footprint - or are you looking for fastest execution time?

Speed:

I am working with a 120x160 binary edge image and by efficient I mean -
mostlly speed of execution.

Morris:

I thought it might be an interesting exercise. Including some #defines
to parameterize the problem, the solution took fewer than 2 dozen
statements. It was compact _and_ fast.

Pleased with myself, I leaned back and thought about possible/probable
uses for the code...
...and then deleted the files.

Sometimes life just sucks.

<End of thread>

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

bR

[email protected] (Robert Bonomi)

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

10/03/2010 9:06 PM

In article <[email protected]>,
HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
>Robatoy wrote:
>> On Mar 10, 4:01 pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
>>> pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
>>> water.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Zz Yzx wrote:
>>>>> http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.htm...
>>
>> Funny thing is, that she would probably do 42 kts with 50,000 HP and
>> the next 2 knots would take 3 times as much. Such is the rule of
>> displacement vessels. To take that one theoretical step further, if
>> they wanted to go 46 knots, they's need 400,000 HP. 47kt 1 million. 50
>> kts a bezllion HP
>
>I think 55 knots or so is the theoretical maximum a vessel can move through
>the water, irrespective of the power pushing it.

Nope. not even close

Currently, unlimited power-boat races are in the 160MPH range. in years past,
they got up into the 200 MPH range, but engine/fuel restrictions have brought
the speeds down.

'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.

Some torpedoes -- which travel entirely underwater -- have sustained speeds
well over 100 knots.

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 7:53 AM

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:39:38 -0700, the infamous Doug Winterburn
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>Robert Bonomi wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Robatoy wrote:
>>>> On Mar 10, 4:01 pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
>>>>> pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
>>>>> water.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Zz Yzx wrote:
>>>>>>> http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.htm...
>>>> Funny thing is, that she would probably do 42 kts with 50,000 HP and
>>>> the next 2 knots would take 3 times as much. Such is the rule of
>>>> displacement vessels. To take that one theoretical step further, if
>>>> they wanted to go 46 knots, they's need 400,000 HP. 47kt 1 million. 50
>>>> kts a bezllion HP
>>> I think 55 knots or so is the theoretical maximum a vessel can move through
>>> the water, irrespective of the power pushing it.
>>
>> Nope. not even close
>>
>> Currently, unlimited power-boat races are in the 160MPH range. in years past,
>> they got up into the 200 MPH range, but engine/fuel restrictions have brought
>> the speeds down.
>>
>> 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>>
>> Some torpedoes -- which travel entirely underwater -- have sustained speeds
>> well over 100 knots.
>
>unlimiteds aren't displacement boats, they're hydroplanes. Cigarette
>boats are also on plane at speed and therefore not displacement vessels.

I can't wait to see the next hydroplaning aircraft carrier!


> My physicist buddy that does torpedo testing says max speed for a
>conventional torpedo is 55 knots, but supercavitating torpedoes are
>capable of much higher speeds by essentially traveling in a gas bubble
>and are therefore also not technically [water] displacement devices.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/7151 233mph torpedo.

--
There is no such thing as limits to growth, because there are no limits
to the human capacity for intelligence, imagination, and wonder.
-- Ronald Reagan

LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to Larry Jaques on 11/03/2010 7:53 AM

13/03/2010 2:38 PM


"Larry Jaques" wrote:

> You may be right, but I was already watching TV when the series
> ended,
> so I'm sure I watched some of the episodes with the family. When
> Dad
> retired from the USAF, we moved to LoCal and he took me to see some
> of
> the subs on display in San Diego. That was way cool.
>
> Back to TV, I vividly remember these: SeaQuest ('93, with Stephanie
> Beacham and Rosalind Allen, hubbahubba), the SeaView ('61), Sea Hunt
> ('58-61, with Lloyd Bridges.)

--------------------------------------------
Next time you are in Cleveland, you van visit the COD, a WWII
submarine, permanently on display.

Next door is the Rock & Roll hall of Fame.

You get to kill two birds with one stone.

Episodes of "Sea Hunt" still appear on late night TV here along with
"Mr. Ed".

Can "Gilligan's Island" be far behind?

Lew


LH

"Lew Hodgett"

in reply to Larry Jaques on 11/03/2010 7:53 AM

13/03/2010 4:57 PM


"Robatoy" wrote:

Ricci for Mary-Ann and Lady Gaga for Ginger. Tim Conway for
skipper, ... lesseee...who else..
--------------------------------
From the vault of useless trivia.

"Tim" Conway started out life as Tom Conway in Chagrin Falls, a
Cleveland burb.

When he got to California, he found there was already an actor named
Tom Conway, thus "Chagrin Tom Conway" became "Tim Conway" and the rest
is history.

Lew


Rc

Robatoy

in reply to Larry Jaques on 11/03/2010 7:53 AM

13/03/2010 3:34 PM

On Mar 13, 6:30=A0pm, "Kerry Montgomery" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Larry Jaques" wrote:
>
> >> You may be right, but I was already watching TV when the series ended,
> >> so I'm sure I watched some of the episodes with the family. =A0When Da=
d
> >> retired from the USAF, we moved to LoCal and he took me to see some of
> >> the subs on display in San Diego. =A0That was way cool.
>
> >> Back to TV, I vividly remember these: SeaQuest ('93, with Stephanie
> >> Beacham and Rosalind Allen, hubbahubba), the SeaView ('61), Sea Hunt
> >> ('58-61, with Lloyd Bridges.)
>
> > --------------------------------------------
> > Next time you are in Cleveland, you van visit the COD, a WWII submarine=
,
> > permanently on display.
>
> > Next door is the Rock & Roll hall of Fame.
>
> > You get to kill two birds with one stone.
>
> > Episodes of "Sea Hunt" still appear on late night TV here along with "M=
r.
> > Ed".
>
> > Can "Gilligan's Island" be far behind?
>
> > Lew
>
> Lew,
> Recently heard that a re-make of Gilligan's Island is in the works.
> Kerry

Ricci for Mary-Ann and Lady Gaga for Ginger. Tim Conway for
skipper, ... lesseee...who else..

KM

"Kerry Montgomery"

in reply to Larry Jaques on 11/03/2010 7:53 AM

13/03/2010 3:30 PM


"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Larry Jaques" wrote:
>
>> You may be right, but I was already watching TV when the series ended,
>> so I'm sure I watched some of the episodes with the family. When Dad
>> retired from the USAF, we moved to LoCal and he took me to see some of
>> the subs on display in San Diego. That was way cool.
>>
>> Back to TV, I vividly remember these: SeaQuest ('93, with Stephanie
>> Beacham and Rosalind Allen, hubbahubba), the SeaView ('61), Sea Hunt
>> ('58-61, with Lloyd Bridges.)
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Next time you are in Cleveland, you van visit the COD, a WWII submarine,
> permanently on display.
>
> Next door is the Rock & Roll hall of Fame.
>
> You get to kill two birds with one stone.
>
> Episodes of "Sea Hunt" still appear on late night TV here along with "Mr.
> Ed".
>
> Can "Gilligan's Island" be far behind?
>
> Lew
>
>
>
Lew,
Recently heard that a re-make of Gilligan's Island is in the works.
Kerry

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to Larry Jaques on 11/03/2010 7:53 AM

13/03/2010 8:24 AM

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:46:10 -0800, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>
>"LDosser" wrote:
>
>> IIRC, Silent Service was the name of the TV show Larry watched.
>--------------------------------
>That was it.
>
>Don't think Larry was old enough to watch.

True, I wasn't like some of you guys, writing in cunieform or Latin
when I was in school. ;)

You may be right, but I was already watching TV when the series ended,
so I'm sure I watched some of the episodes with the family. When Dad
retired from the USAF, we moved to LoCal and he took me to see some of
the subs on display in San Diego. That was way cool.

Back to TV, I vividly remember these: SeaQuest ('93, with Stephanie
Beacham and Rosalind Allen, hubbahubba), the SeaView ('61), Sea Hunt
('58-61, with Lloyd Bridges.)

--
Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to
make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done,
whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be
learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably
the last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
-- Thomas H. Huxley

Cc

"CW"

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

12/03/2010 5:41 PM


"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Robatoy wrote:
>
>> WTF ARE those things?
>
> In polite society, they are known as "STINK FUCKS".
>
> Take your choice, jet skis, motorcycles, power boats, snowmobiles, etc.
>
> They all are loud and they all stink.
>
> Lew
>

I guess it's safe to say you wouldn't like my Harley. It sets off car
alarms.

LJ

Larry Jaques

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

13/03/2010 9:06 AM

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 01:45:55 -0600, the infamous Morris Dovey
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>On 3/13/2010 12:30 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:
>> On 3/12/2010 11:44 PM, Nonny wrote:
>>> With the rapid and frequent movement of the small Hobie, wouldn't a
>>> solar tracking system be large, complex and take a good deal of power to
>>> operate effectively?
>>
>> Not necessarily. The control portion can be as tiny/simple/inexpensive
>> as this:
>>
>> http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3x (warning: large page!)
>>
>> and small 12 VDC automotive motors with appropriate reduction gearing
>> driving lead screws should be adequate for positioning. I'd guess that a
>> marine/deep discharge battery should be enough for the test drive.
>
>Oops - I meant to point out (but forgot) that the tracking system's
>primary job will be to accommodate the inertia of the collector - to
>keep it in the same orientation while the boat moves under it. This
>should provide minimal loading on the motors.
>
>Tracking the apparent movement of the sun will, I think, be smallest
>part of the job.

How about air-loading some cylinders connected to the collector
system's (weighted) base to allow semi-free pivoting? It would
counteract the rocking motion of the boat to a great extent so
feedback from the position sensors would be diminished, lessening the
collector's "need to adjust" sensing. Are you using some sort of time
delay, too?

--
Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to
make yourself do the thing you have to do, when it ought to be done,
whether you like it or not; it is the first lesson that ought to be
learned; and however early a man's training begins, it is probably
the last lesson that he learns thoroughly.
-- Thomas H. Huxley

kk

in reply to "HeyBub" on 08/03/2010 6:18 PM

11/03/2010 6:26 PM

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:21:37 -0800 (PST), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Mar 11, 10:53 am, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:39:38 -0700, the infamous Doug Winterburn
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Robert Bonomi wrote:
>> >> In article <[email protected]>,
>> >> HeyBub <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>> Robatoy wrote:
>> >>>> On Mar 10, 4:01 pm, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>>>> Which is how/why she could do 44kts(50mph), which is
>> >>>>> pretty much hauling ass for anything that size in the
>> >>>>> water.
>>
>> >>>>> Zz Yzx wrote:
>> >>>>>>>http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4263478.htm...
>> >>>> Funny thing is, that she would probably do 42 kts with 50,000 HP and
>> >>>> the next 2 knots would take 3 times as much. Such is the rule of
>> >>>> displacement vessels. To take that one theoretical step further, if
>> >>>> they wanted to go 46 knots, they's need 400,000 HP. 47kt 1 million. 50
>> >>>> kts a bezllion HP
>> >>> I think 55 knots or so is the theoretical maximum a vessel can move through
>> >>> the water, irrespective of the power pushing it.
>>
>> >> Nope.  not even close
>>
>> >> Currently, unlimited power-boat races are in the 160MPH range. in years past,
>> >> they got up into the 200 MPH range, but engine/fuel restrictions have brought
>> >> the speeds down.
>>
>> >> 'Cigarette' boats can reach 80+knots in calm water.
>>
>> >> Some torpedoes -- which travel entirely underwater -- have sustained speeds
>> >> well over 100 knots.
>>
>> >unlimiteds aren't displacement boats, they're hydroplanes.  Cigarette
>> >boats are also on plane at speed and therefore not displacement vessels.
>>
>> I can't wait to see the next hydroplaning aircraft carrier!
>>
>
>One of my all-time favourite photographs:
>
>Raw energy at it's glorious finest
>
>http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/WHeeee.jpg

Here, hold my beer...


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