Hiya All,
Awhile back I posted about a redheart box I had built that I
experienced glue creep on. I used Titebond II and felt it had fully
cured although the temp during curing was right around the lower
limit. Ok, so I attributed the creep to the temp.
I just finished two cherry nightstands with glued up tops (panel).
These tops were glued up and left to cure in relative warmth (85 or
so) and prior to finishing, they sat for prolly 6 weeks. Yup, 6
weeks. Took me awhile to get these projects done. Anyway, I
finished with a very thin coat of watco natural and about 8 coats or
so of shellac. Then rubbed out with limestone, rottenstone, etc....
Looked gorgeous.
So they've been in the house now for about 3 weeks (temp is a little
cooler say around 75-80) and low and behold it appears I have creep.
Right where the pieces in the panel are edge glued, I'm getting a
ridge. Can't really see it but can feel it. I used titebond II
again. This is coming out of a gallon container that is perhaps 3
months old. Glue seems fine, adheres well, and doesn't appear to have
"spoiled".
So my question, just what the heck can I do to avoid this in the
future? I've liked titebond to date but honestly if this is what it
does, then I'm gonna have to find an alternative. I see poly has been
well received on the rec. in terms of creep so maybe that's it.
Either way, I'd like to know if there's a way to avoid creep with the
titebond II. I plan to write the company cause I'm pretty ticked off
about this. I'll prolly never get the tops looking good if I go back
and knock these edges down and then try to match the finish so you can
understand my ire.
Anyway, thanks for any inputs.
Cheers,
cc
ps. forgot to mention, I'm in NM and avg. humidity has been between
prolly 10-15% for the past 8-10 weeks (from glue-up to final rubout).
Comments in inline below:
"James Cubby Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks folks for the ideas/suggestions. A few clarifications are in
> order:
>
> 1. Wood was purchased from Paxton's about 1 year ago and sat in my
> garage since it was purchased. Given our humidity levels in ABQ, I
> would venture it was pretty dry.
I would agree. Paxton sells dry wood and it sat for about a year in your
envinronment.
> 2. All the wood used was from the same bit purchased a year ago so it
> all should be the same moisture content, relatively speaking.
Agreed
> 3. No swamp cooler in the garage. I have one for the house and it
> runs about 6 hours a day. The nightstands were not moved in until all
> the finishing was done. With shellac being a strong moisture
> barrier, I wouldn't think that would do it.
>
I have a big problem with this statement. Shellac will not stop moisture;
it just slowes it down (more than many other finishes).
I remodel kitchens for a living (furniture is right now a part time job;
full time again after this year). Here in the Denver area (about as dry as
it is there) we run into a problem with swamp coolers. When a pair of doors
is hinged so that there is a gap in the center (no stile) we normally leave
a 1/16" gap; when the customer has a swamp cooler, we have to leave a 1/8"
gap to prevent the doors from swelling shut. Most domestic hardwoods have
similar movement with moisture; about 1/4" per foot, across the grain,
between 6% and 12% moisture content. Four 2 1/4" door stiles will move
about 1/8" between ambient (or air conditioned) and swamp cooler conditions.
This process usually takes several weeks and happens with all finishes.
This *could* be your problem. Thickness movement is less than across the
grain; but the wood will move in thickness. If your joint is such than the
grain is very flat on one piece and almost vertical on the other piece; you
*will* notice the difference between ambient (dry) conditions and swamp
cooler (wet) conditions. You can feel a difference of only 1 or 2 thousands
of an inch (you may not see it though)
> 4. All the joints between the boards were smooth and required little
> clamping pressure.
OK, good
> Any chance the glue is just crap? I know a lot of folks swear by the
> stuff but this is two projects in a row now. Anyway, thanks much for
> all the conversation.
No; baring a bad batch; this is great glue. (I have never heard of a bad
batch, but it is possible.) We buy TB II in 5 gallon jugs, which only last
a week or two and have used it for over ten years with no problems. I use
TB and TB II for my personal work and buy several gallon jugs per year;
again with no problems.
> Cheers,
> cc
Exactly how is your joint mismatched (mechanical description from both sides
of the panel, if you can). You now have my curiosity awake from a dead
sleep.
--
Alan Bierbaum
Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Recent Project Page: http://www.calanb.com/recent.html
Workbench project: http://www.calanb.com/wbench.html
What is the shelf life of TB II? I have some that has been around for several
years that I still use. Am I headed for trouble?
Grant
Mike Hide wrote:
> > No; baring a bad batch; this is great glue. (I have never heard of a bad
> > batch, but it is possible.) We buy TB II in 5 gallon jugs, which only
> last
> > a week or two and have used it for over ten years with no problems. I use
> > TB and TB II for my personal work and buy several gallon jugs per year;
> > again with no problems.
> >
>
> However titebond does have a definite shelf life, and there is also the
> possibility of the glue being exposed to freezing temps during the winter
> months which would at least severely degrade it ......mjh
>
> > > Cheers,
> > > cc
"James Cubby Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Stay out of the adhesives aisle at Home Depot?
-- Ernie
Update to my post. I missed part of the original post last night when I
replied. I missed the PS and the word either appeared instead of neither in
the last sentence.
> Is the wood shifting, or is the glue line high on both sides of the panel?
> Where are you located? Glue creep is normally caused by force or stress;
>NEITHER of which would normally exist in a panel.
Do you have a swamp cooler in either the house or shop?
--
Alan Bierbaum
Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Recent Project Page: http://www.calanb.com/recent.html
Workbench project: http://www.calanb.com/wbench.html
"Alan Bierbaum" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sounds to me like you are building with relatively wet wood and then
taking
> it into a relatively dry environment. The wood shrinks slightly but the
hard
> glue line does not. Do you know moisture contents or relative humidifies?
> Is the wood shifting, or is the glue line high on both sides of the panel?
> Where are you located? Glue creep is normally caused by force or stress;
> either of which would normally exist in a panel.
>
> --
> Alan Bierbaum
>
> Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
> Recent Project Page: http://www.calanb.com/recent.html
> Workbench project: http://www.calanb.com/wbench.html
>
>
> "James Cubby Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hiya All,
> > snip
> >
> > I just finished two cherry nightstands with glued up tops (panel).
> > These tops were glued up and left to cure in relative warmth (85 or
> > so) and prior to finishing, they sat for prolly 6 weeks. Yup, 6
> > weeks. Took me awhile to get these projects done. Anyway, I
> > finished with a very thin coat of watco natural and about 8 coats or
> > so of shellac. Then rubbed out with limestone, rottenstone, etc....
> > Looked gorgeous.
> >
> > So they've been in the house now for about 3 weeks (temp is a little
> > cooler say around 75-80) and low and behold it appears I have creep.
> > Right where the pieces in the panel are edge glued, I'm getting a
> > ridge. Can't really see it but can feel it. I used titebond II
> > again. This is coming out of a gallon container that is perhaps 3
> > months old. Glue seems fine, adheres well, and doesn't appear to have
> > "spoiled".
> >
> > So my question, just what the heck can I do to avoid this in the
> > future? I've liked titebond to date but honestly if this is what it
> > does, then I'm gonna have to find an alternative. I see poly has been
> > well received on the rec. in terms of creep so maybe that's it.
> > Either way, I'd like to know if there's a way to avoid creep with the
> > titebond II. I plan to write the company cause I'm pretty ticked off
> > about this. I'll prolly never get the tops looking good if I go back
> > and knock these edges down and then try to match the finish so you can
> > understand my ire.
> >
> > Anyway, thanks for any inputs.
> > Cheers,
> > cc
> >
> > ps. forgot to mention, I'm in NM and avg. humidity has been between
> > prolly 10-15% for the past 8-10 weeks (from glue-up to final rubout).
>
>
Glad that your problem is solved and that it does not involve major work to
fix. You might want to spend some more time reading up on wood movement
with moisture changes. There are any number of good book (Hordsley ?
spelling, is a good one). Understanding wood movement will greatly reduce
your future problems.
--
Alan Bierbaum
Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Recent Project Page: http://www.calanb.com/recent.html
Workbench project: http://www.calanb.com/wbench.html
"James Cubby Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya Folks,
> Ok, a bit more info now. I went back today to try to see just what
> the "Mechanical" nature of the joint looked like. It was back to
> being smooth! All I can figure at this point is changes in humidity
> are causing this. So how do folks prevent this from happening?
> Wood was dry when glued and had plenty of time to acclimate before
> final smoothing/finishing. I don't seem to see this on classic
> heirlooms or even production furniture. How's it done?
>
> I suppose I could glue up and then bring the boards into the house for
> a few weeks before final smoothing? Would rather not fill a room
> with parts for a table for instance but if that's what it takes.
>
> Anyway, thanks for all the info.
> Cheers,
> cc
Oh I wasn't referring to stability. I'm saying that if you perfectly align
and glue two pieces of wood, one at 8% and one at 11%, then after a few
weeks for the wood to acclimate to the environment they will no longer be
perfectly flat. Since the wood is at different moisture levels, they react
differently to environmental humidity and will expand/contract a different
amount. The result is small step in the wood. Here's what the book has to
say (Nick Engler's "Woodworking Wisdom", p. 13):
"Joinery that has been planed and sanded flush sometimes develops 'glue
steps' -- tiny changes in the surface levels from one board to another.
These are especially noticeable in tabletops where two or more boards are
joined edge to edge. The common misconception is that these steps are
caused by improper gluing technique, but they are actually the result of
uneven wood movement. Sometimes a craftsman fails to shop-dry the lumber.
The individual boards have different moisture contents when they are
joined, and the moister boards move more than the drier ones. Or the
craftsman glues flat grain to quarter grain, opposing tangential movement
to radial movement. The flat-grain edge moves at a different rate than the
quarter-grain edge. In both cases, a step results."
Now the OP did say that he waited six weeks after glue up so this doesn't
sound like the perfect answer to his problem, but I figured that sharing
the wisdom might help the OP out anyway.
I would like to check out the Hoadley material that you mentioned. I'll
see if the library has any of his titles.
david
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:54:33 GMT, George wrote:
> You're reading the wrong book if you think there's a difference in
> stability.
>
> Check Hoadley and others for information. X % is X % regardless.
>
> "D K Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I agree with Steve, and I just read about this in a book a few nights ago.
>> If you are gluing two woods with different moisture contents (such as one
>> board air-dried and one board kiln-dried), whenever they acclimate to
> their
>> surroundings the will expand/contract to different amounts.
Sounds to me like you are building with relatively wet wood and then taking
it into a relatively dry environment. The wood shrinks slightly but the hard
glue line does not. Do you know moisture contents or relative humidifies?
Is the wood shifting, or is the glue line high on both sides of the panel?
Where are you located? Glue creep is normally caused by force or stress;
either of which would normally exist in a panel.
--
Alan Bierbaum
Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Recent Project Page: http://www.calanb.com/recent.html
Workbench project: http://www.calanb.com/wbench.html
"James Cubby Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya All,
> snip
>
> I just finished two cherry nightstands with glued up tops (panel).
> These tops were glued up and left to cure in relative warmth (85 or
> so) and prior to finishing, they sat for prolly 6 weeks. Yup, 6
> weeks. Took me awhile to get these projects done. Anyway, I
> finished with a very thin coat of watco natural and about 8 coats or
> so of shellac. Then rubbed out with limestone, rottenstone, etc....
> Looked gorgeous.
>
> So they've been in the house now for about 3 weeks (temp is a little
> cooler say around 75-80) and low and behold it appears I have creep.
> Right where the pieces in the panel are edge glued, I'm getting a
> ridge. Can't really see it but can feel it. I used titebond II
> again. This is coming out of a gallon container that is perhaps 3
> months old. Glue seems fine, adheres well, and doesn't appear to have
> "spoiled".
>
> So my question, just what the heck can I do to avoid this in the
> future? I've liked titebond to date but honestly if this is what it
> does, then I'm gonna have to find an alternative. I see poly has been
> well received on the rec. in terms of creep so maybe that's it.
> Either way, I'd like to know if there's a way to avoid creep with the
> titebond II. I plan to write the company cause I'm pretty ticked off
> about this. I'll prolly never get the tops looking good if I go back
> and knock these edges down and then try to match the finish so you can
> understand my ire.
>
> Anyway, thanks for any inputs.
> Cheers,
> cc
>
> ps. forgot to mention, I'm in NM and avg. humidity has been between
> prolly 10-15% for the past 8-10 weeks (from glue-up to final rubout).
You're reading the wrong book if you think there's a difference in
stability.
Check Hoadley and others for information. X % is X % regardless.
"D K Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I agree with Steve, and I just read about this in a book a few nights ago.
> If you are gluing two woods with different moisture contents (such as one
> board air-dried and one board kiln-dried), whenever they acclimate to
their
> surroundings the will expand/contract to different amounts.
On 19 Jul 2003 19:10:29 -0700, [email protected] (James Cubby
Culbertson) wrote:
>Thanks folks for the ideas/suggestions. A few clarifications are in
>order:
>
>1. Wood was purchased from Paxton's about 1 year ago and sat in my
>garage since it was purchased. Given our humidity levels in ABQ, I
>would venture it was pretty dry.
>
>2. All the wood used was from the same bit purchased a year ago so it
>all should be the same moisture content, relatively speaking.
>
>3. No swamp cooler in the garage. I have one for the house and it
>runs about 6 hours a day. The nightstands were not moved in until all
>the finishing was done. With shellac being a strong moisture
>barrier, I wouldn't think that would do it.
>
>4. All the joints between the boards were smooth and required little
>clamping pressure.
>
>Any chance the glue is just crap? I know a lot of folks swear by the
>stuff but this is two projects in a row now. Anyway, thanks much for
>all the conversation.
>Cheers,
>cc
Here's some food for thought, Jim. I'm a neophyte at fine
woodworking...so take this with a grain of salt...
Consider using the Kreg tool for pocket joinery. I've used it several
times now...and the joints are super tight and instant. They suggest
that glue also be used...but the joints are tight enough even without
any glue.
I have never had a project sit around for any long period of time,
though. I just got my first ever major project done a few weeks
ago...and I did some of the joints with and without glue. But all the
joints are super tight.
Again...just another viewpoint.
Good luck.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Follow Joan Rivers' example --- get pre-embalmed!
Well here is another guess .
seems to me you should send a copy of your post to titebond and see if they
have any suggestions .
Even tough some creep is possible ,really there is little reason for its
cause in this case providing the wood on either side of the glue joint is
free to move , i.e. the joint is stress free .
One thought comes to mind [although your first example should nullify this
argument where you left it unfinished for 6 weeks ], sometimes excessive
clamp pressure can cause problems . At times when the joint is not a perfect
fit,the edges do not quite fit it is tempting to over tighten to obtain the
desired squeeze out . Particularly with wide boards more pressure is
required to obtain this result . while this is fine for the troubling areas
of the joint it causes glue starvation in other areas which fit correctly
.Inasmuch that the perfect requires a glue film between surfaces to perform
correctly ,this might be at least a contributor to the problem .
The only other suggestion to the cause might be tightbond being water based
causes a marked increase in moisture content locally which obviously would
take some time to stabilize to that of the surrounding wood .Living where
you do the material moisture content should be pretty low ,probably
something like 5% or less I would guess. However I would have thought 6
weeks before finishing should have been ample time to stabilize .
So my suggestion is to get as perfect a dry joint as you can and that should
result in low clamp pressure and lower joint residual stresses .It is the
stress that causes the deformation in any medium....mjh
--
mike hide
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"James Cubby Culbertson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hiya All,
> Awhile back I posted about a redheart box I had built that I
> experienced glue creep on. I used Titebond II and felt it had fully
> cured although the temp during curing was right around the lower
> limit. Ok, so I attributed the creep to the temp.
>
> I just finished two cherry nightstands with glued up tops (panel).
> These tops were glued up and left to cure in relative warmth (85 or
> so) and prior to finishing, they sat for prolly 6 weeks. Yup, 6
> weeks. Took me awhile to get these projects done. Anyway, I
> finished with a very thin coat of watco natural and about 8 coats or
> so of shellac. Then rubbed out with limestone, rottenstone, etc....
> Looked gorgeous.
>
> So they've been in the house now for about 3 weeks (temp is a little
> cooler say around 75-80) and low and behold it appears I have creep.
> Right where the pieces in the panel are edge glued, I'm getting a
> ridge. Can't really see it but can feel it. I used titebond II
> again. This is coming out of a gallon container that is perhaps 3
> months old. Glue seems fine, adheres well, and doesn't appear to have
> "spoiled".
>
> So my question, just what the heck can I do to avoid this in the
> future? I've liked titebond to date but honestly if this is what it
> does, then I'm gonna have to find an alternative. I see poly has been
> well received on the rec. in terms of creep so maybe that's it.
> Either way, I'd like to know if there's a way to avoid creep with the
> titebond II. I plan to write the company cause I'm pretty ticked off
> about this. I'll prolly never get the tops looking good if I go back
> and knock these edges down and then try to match the finish so you can
> understand my ire.
>
> Anyway, thanks for any inputs.
> Cheers,
> cc
>
> ps. forgot to mention, I'm in NM and avg. humidity has been between
> prolly 10-15% for the past 8-10 weeks (from glue-up to final rubout).
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 17:51:07 GMT, Steve Knight wrote:
> O
> I think most creep is caused by wood that is not dry enough. You can also use a
> poly glue to eliminate it.
I agree with Steve, and I just read about this in a book a few nights ago.
If you are gluing two woods with different moisture contents (such as one
board air-dried and one board kiln-dried), whenever they acclimate to their
surroundings the will expand/contract to different amounts. The book was
discussing the importance of acclimating wood to your shop environment for
a period of time before working with it.
david
--
I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have
of it.
-- Thomas Jefferson