I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked them
against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off. As a guess,
the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an inch, and the 12" is
off by half again or twice that much.
I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking, but I
certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from Home
Despot.
Suggestions?
Thanks!
Doug White
Doug White wrote:
> I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
> squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked them
> against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off. As a guess,
> the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an inch, and the 12" is
> off by half again or twice that much.
>
> I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking, but I
> certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from Home
> Despot.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Doug White
L.S. Starrett is know for their precision and surprisingly there framing
squares don't seem to be expensive. "Toolfetch" show the L.S. Starrett
36129 Fs-24 24"X 16" Steel Framing Square to be about $13.00.
http://www.toolfetch.com/Category/Measuring_Leveling/Squares/681-36129.htm
http://www.starrett.com/download/361_cat_70_p39_40.pdf
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:21:34 -0500, "HeyBub" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>-MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/14/10 10:58 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>>> Doug White wrote:
>>> Get this one from Harbor Freight;
>>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9541
>>>
>>
>> I'm usually the first guy to defend ol' HF, but I have yet to find an
>> accurate analog measuring device in their store. One day, I went in
>> looking for a square and tested out a bunch of that exact model and
>> none were square, and a good many of them had inaccurate scales. They
>> commonly did not start at "zero" at the corners.
>>
>> I would go beyond the normal HF motto of buyer beware and say, just
>> avoid them for something like this. If not, make sure you have a way
>> of checking it for square and accuracy of the scale.
>
>Good points. I recall, however, from teaching Physics labs, that one should
>avoid using the end of a ruler -such as a yard stick (actually, we used
>"meter" sticks) - as a starting point. Start at the 1" mark and subtract one
>inch from the result to get the true distance. The reason is that the ends
>of measuring devices get boogered up and distort the beginning point.
...this goes for measuring tapes, too (maybe "especially" 'cause they
get boogered regularly)...one of the first things I learned as a
carpenter; "...burn an inch."
cg
>
>For building such things as dog houses, it probably doesn't amount to a
>significant problem. Obtaining the measurement for a piece of glass,
>however, could be a WTF? moment..
>
"Doug White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> http://zo-d.com/stuff/how-do-i/how-to-check-and-adjust-a-framing-square
>> .html
>
> I've heard of this approach, and the large square is probably close enough
> to give it a shot. I suspect I'd have to beat the hell out of the smaller
> square to get is closr to right.
>
> I'll report back on how it goes. I can probably use my machinists square
> to get started. It's not clear how precisely I can draw and check the
> lines, but over the long leg, I should be able to get pretty close. I may
> also start by stoning out any nicks & dings, and then I can use a
> precision
> straight edge for the "base" of the alignment test.
>
> Doug White
Been there. Done that. It works. Warren
"Doug White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> http://zo-d.com/stuff/how-do-i/how-to-check-and-adjust-a-framing-square
>> .html
>
> I've heard of this approach, and the large square is probably close enough
> to give it a shot. I suspect I'd have to beat the hell out of the smaller
> square to get is closr to right.
>
> I'll report back on how it goes. I can probably use my machinists square
> to get started. It's not clear how precisely I can draw and check the
> lines, but over the long leg, I should be able to get pretty close. I may
> also start by stoning out any nicks & dings, and then I can use a
> precision
> straight edge for the "base" of the alignment test.
>
> Doug White
The nicks and dings are a clue that they've probably been dropped a time or
two... generally the root cause of the problem. If you do the math you'll
find that a small movement at the corner will make pretty significant
changes at the ends of the legs--the corrections will most likely be in
minutes not degrees. As such you may not have as big a beating to undertake
as it might seem at first!
John
Upscale wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:12:39 GMT, Doug White <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
>> squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I
>> checked them against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is
>> way off. As a guess, the 24" one is out of square by more than
>> 1/32" of an inch, and the 12" is off by half again or twice that
>> much.
>>
>> I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking,
>> but I certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones
>> from Home Despot.
>
> a squared + b squared = c squared?
> If you need something bigger than a 24" square, but not very often,
> then Pythagoras can help you out.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem
Even easier is a 3x4x5 triangle, or multiples thereof.
"Doug White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
> squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked them
> against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off. As a
> guess,
> the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an inch, and the 12" is
> off by half again or twice that much.
>
> I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking, but I
> certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from Home
> Despot.
>
> Suggestions?
Tune up what you have...
This site gives the basic directions.
http://zo-d.com/stuff/how-do-i/how-to-check-and-adjust-a-framing-square.html
John
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> http://zo-d.com/stuff/how-do-i/how-to-check-and-adjust-a-framing-square
> .html
I've heard of this approach, and the large square is probably close enough
to give it a shot. I suspect I'd have to beat the hell out of the smaller
square to get is closr to right.
I'll report back on how it goes. I can probably use my machinists square
to get started. It's not clear how precisely I can draw and check the
lines, but over the long leg, I should be able to get pretty close. I may
also start by stoning out any nicks & dings, and then I can use a precision
straight edge for the "base" of the alignment test.
Doug White
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 3/14/2010 12:32 PM, Doug White wrote:
>
>> I've heard of this approach, and the large square is probably close
>> enough to give it a shot. I suspect I'd have to beat the hell out of
>> the smaller square to get is closr to right.
>
> It may help if you mention what it is that you are making that takes
> that kind of "squaring" precision out of a framing square that is
> normally good for the proverbial "1/8th in 8" on a good day (not
> including pitch, rise and run, rafter layouts, etc, ot course.)?
>
> When a competent carpenter/framer needs more of such precision over a
> distance than inherent in a "framing square", he uses math.
This is for cabinet making, of a sort. I have an aluminum frame that I
am fitting shelves to, and the frame is eminently square. It's made from
80/20 structural aluminum (http://www.8020.net/).
My ShopSmith table saw is a wonderful tool, but the miter gauge is the
weakest part of the system. Cutting 14" wide shelves resulted in errors
close to a 16th of an inch. (Yes, I know, I should make a sled). I
wasn't surprised, and had planned on straightening things up with my
router. I checked the shelves initially with a general purpose
combination square. To set up a guide for the router, I grabbed my
smaller framing square, which showed that the shelves weren't nearly as
out of whack as I first measured. That's when I discovered that no two
of the four wood working squares I tried agreed. I went to my machine
shop and got out my "serious square" and found errors of one sort or
another in all of them. The worst is the smaller framing square.
Doug White
Doug White wrote:
> I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
> squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked
> them against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off.
> As a guess, the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an
> inch, and the 12" is off by half again or twice that much.
>
> I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking,
> but I certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from
> Home Despot.
>
> Suggestions?
Adjust it...center punch at the angle. Where you punch on line between
inside and outside corners determines which way it bends.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:12:39 GMT, Doug White <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
>squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked them
>against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off. As a guess,
>the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an inch, and the 12" is
>off by half again or twice that much.
>
>I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking, but I
>certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from Home
>Despot.
a squared + b squared = c squared?
If you need something bigger than a 24" square, but not very often,
then Pythagoras can help you out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_theorem
Doug White wrote:
> I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
> squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked
> them against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off.
> As a guess, the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an
> inch, and the 12" is off by half again or twice that much.
>
> I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking,
> but I certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from
> Home Despot.
>
> Suggestions?
Get this one from Harbor Freight;
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9541
It may not be any more square than the ones you've got, but at least it's
readable!
The stamped steel squares you mentioned are difficult to read after a few
years. This one has a yellow enameled surface with brown numbers on its
face.
The HF model even has a set of numbers called "centimeters" which, I think,
have something to do with the quantity of different fruits that will fit in
a standard peck.
On 3/14/2010 10:12 AM, Doug White wrote:
> I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
> squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked them
> against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off. As a guess,
> the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an inch, and the 12" is
> off by half again or twice that much.
>
> I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking, but I
> certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from Home
> Despot.
>
> Suggestions?
I bought a Lee Valley's stainless carpenter's square a couple of years
back and was delighted to discover that (as far as I've been able to
determine) it's dead-on square. I use it to square up my CNC router.
Almost as good: there's not a speck of rust on it. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 3/14/2010 11:12 AM, Doug White wrote:
> I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
> squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked them
> against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off. As a guess,
> the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an inch, and the 12" is
> off by half again or twice that much.
>
> I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking, but I
> certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from Home
> Despot.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Doug White
All of my square duties are do with a small square, I don't build
buildings.
I use a solid triangle type square for all of the adjustments around the
shop and on the shop tools. It has never failed me, and I use it all of
the time. It also has been dropped more that I would like to admit.
Based on adjustments made with this square I have made hundreds of
picture frames with perfect mitered corners. (Maybe not all "perfect"
but literally hundreds ;-) )
On 3/14/10 10:58 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> Doug White wrote:
> Get this one from Harbor Freight;
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9541
>
I'm usually the first guy to defend ol' HF, but I have yet to find an
accurate analog measuring device in their store. One day, I went in
looking for a square and tested out a bunch of that exact model and none
were square, and a good many of them had inaccurate scales. They
commonly did not start at "zero" at the corners.
I would go beyond the normal HF motto of buyer beware and say, just
avoid them for something like this. If not, make sure you have a way of
checking it for square and accuracy of the scale.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Doug White wrote:
> I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
> squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked
them
> against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off. As a
> guess, the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an inch, and
the
> 12" is off by half again or twice that much.
>
> I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking, but
I
> certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from Home
> Despot.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Doug White
You can fix the one you have by pinging it in the right areas. See google
for easy to follow directions.
--
You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK !
Mandriva 2010 using KDE 4.3
Website: www.rentmyhusband.biz
On 3/14/10 4:08 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Generally a simple ball pien hammer does the job and does not leave
> the rough "divots" on the surface of the square.. Just pien it on an
> anvil. Carefully - you don't want to go TOO far!!
I'm going to try that, next time, instead of a punch. Good idea.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 3/14/10 5:21 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> Good points. I recall, however, from teaching Physics labs, that one should
> avoid using the end of a ruler -such as a yard stick (actually, we used
> "meter" sticks) - as a starting point. Start at the 1" mark and subtract one
> inch from the result to get the true distance. The reason is that the ends
> of measuring devices get boogered up and distort the beginning point.
>
Yeah, I think we all have learned to start at the one, at some point in
our experience.
But since the topic is "precision" framing square. I know that's an
oxymoron. -)
In any case, I like to have at least one nice L square and one nice rule
(from a combination square) that are each sanded "true zero" on each end
and at the corners.
I often find myself with a square and a file, taking of the blister from
a ding at the corner where it's been dropped on the concrete floor.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/14/10 10:58 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>> Doug White wrote:
>> Get this one from Harbor Freight;
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=9541
>>
>
> I'm usually the first guy to defend ol' HF, but I have yet to find an
> accurate analog measuring device in their store. One day, I went in
> looking for a square and tested out a bunch of that exact model and
> none were square, and a good many of them had inaccurate scales. They
> commonly did not start at "zero" at the corners.
>
> I would go beyond the normal HF motto of buyer beware and say, just
> avoid them for something like this. If not, make sure you have a way
> of checking it for square and accuracy of the scale.
Good points. I recall, however, from teaching Physics labs, that one should
avoid using the end of a ruler -such as a yard stick (actually, we used
"meter" sticks) - as a starting point. Start at the 1" mark and subtract one
inch from the result to get the true distance. The reason is that the ends
of measuring devices get boogered up and distort the beginning point.
For building such things as dog houses, it probably doesn't amount to a
significant problem. Obtaining the measurement for a piece of glass,
however, could be a WTF? moment..
As I recall, a framing saw is calibrated square and a center punch is
used to dent at the inside or outside of the V pint between the arms.
At the inside it spreads. Outside it pinches.
Martin
-MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/14/10 5:21 PM, HeyBub wrote:
>> Good points. I recall, however, from teaching Physics labs, that one
>> should
>> avoid using the end of a ruler -such as a yard stick (actually, we used
>> "meter" sticks) - as a starting point. Start at the 1" mark and
>> subtract one
>> inch from the result to get the true distance. The reason is that the
>> ends
>> of measuring devices get boogered up and distort the beginning point.
>>
>
> Yeah, I think we all have learned to start at the one, at some point in
> our experience.
> But since the topic is "precision" framing square. I know that's an
> oxymoron. -)
>
> In any case, I like to have at least one nice L square and one nice rule
> (from a combination square) that are each sanded "true zero" on each end
> and at the corners.
>
> I often find myself with a square and a file, taking of the blister from
> a ding at the corner where it's been dropped on the concrete floor.
>
>
On 3/14/2010 12:32 PM, Doug White wrote:
> I've heard of this approach, and the large square is probably close enough
> to give it a shot. I suspect I'd have to beat the hell out of the smaller
> square to get is closr to right.
It may help if you mention what it is that you are making that takes
that kind of "squaring" precision out of a framing square that is
normally good for the proverbial "1/8th in 8" on a good day (not
including pitch, rise and run, rafter layouts, etc, ot course.)?
When a competent carpenter/framer needs more of such precision over a
distance than inherent in a "framing square", he uses math.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:40:14 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Doug White wrote:
>> I'm working on a project, and have determined that both of my framing
>> squares aren't square. I have a precison machinists square I checked
>> them against, and the 24" one is close, but the 12" one is way off.
>> As a guess, the 24" one is out of square by more than 1/32" of an
>> inch, and the 12" is off by half again or twice that much.
>>
>> I need something bigger than the machinists square for woodworking,
>> but I certainly can't rely on the old fashion stamped steel ones from
>> Home Despot.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>
>Adjust it...center punch at the angle. Where you punch on line between
>inside and outside corners determines which way it bends.
Generally a simple ball pien hammer does the job and does not leave
the rough "divots" on the surface of the square.. Just pien it on an
anvil. Carefully - you don't want to go TOO far!!