Hello:
For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
joints?
Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and
production pocket hole machines. They all run
around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which
I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is,
which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also
know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face
frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be
more versitle???
So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you
recommend?
Thanks,
Richard Hollingsworth
Morris Dovey wrote:
> factor. For example, I can't imagine that steel wouldn't be
> better at resisting shear;
Well, you can put all the shear you want on a high-quality bolt, but what's
going to fail is the wood itself (assuming the bolt was put in correctly).
The glue in a glue joint is stronger than the wood, so the issue is the
same. I would even say that a M&T joint would resist _more_ shear force
than wood bolted together because there is more wood surface glued together
(and therefore, more wood to break apart before failure).
--
gabriel
M&T and Pocket holes are two very different processes.
Pocket holes are now the generally accepted method for Face frames.
Strength is relative to a degree. If you use glue with the pocket joints
and you break that joint then There has probably been way too much force
applied or your wood quality stinks.
Pocket holes now have plugs too and they are used to add to the piece's
looks.
If all you plan on doing is Cabinets for a kitchen go Pocket holes.
IF you still think a M&T is needed once in a while and really want that
machine because it's cool, think about purchasing a Kreg Jig ($120-$150) and
the Mortiser.
--
Young Carpenter
"Violin playing and Woodworking are similar, it takes plenty of money,
plenty of practice, and you usually make way more noise than intended"
{Put the fiddler back "on" the roof to reply}
--
"Richard Holliingsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Hello:
>
> For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
> joints?
>
> Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and
> production pocket hole machines. They all run
> around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which
> I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is,
> which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also
> know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face
> frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be
> more versitle???
>
> So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you
> recommend?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Richard Hollingsworth
>
Stephen M wrote:
>
> IMHO Cabinets are not "fine furniture"... their expected lifetime is 30
> years (give or take). I expect hierloom furniture to be good for at least a
> century. This justifies differnet techniques.
>
> In my kitchen cabs I used both:
>
> For cabinet face frames.... Pocket holes all the way. They never show, and
> it just makes like "way too easy".
>
> For the doors, I used M&T..... However I am proabbly in the minority there.
> The mainstream answer would probably be to use rail and stile cutters which
> forms an integrated "stub tennon" on the rail.
>
> Personally I would never use pocket holes on a door. PHJ is really ugly but
> functional, doors are just way to visible.
>
If life span of the piece is THE criteria for "fine furniture" then
the
base cabinet for my mortising machine qualifies - all joints being
either
M&T or box/finger joints.
If the joinery is to be a design element of the piece as well, then
through
M&T along with dowels and rectangular pegs make it "fine furniture"
though
a lot of "Craftsman" and "Stickley" pieces have faux joints.
I can think of an example where pocket hole joinery may be better than
M&T - specifically table leg/table apron joints, assuming there's ust
enough room for two pocket holes for each end of each apron.
charlie b
Richard Holliingsworth <[email protected]> wrote:
: Hello:
: For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
: joints?
: Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and
: production pocket hole machines. They all run
: around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which
: I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is,
: which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also
: know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face
: frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be
: more versitle???
: So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you
: recommend?
: Thanks,
: Richard Hollingsworth
Hi Rich,
When yu say "cabinets" what are you talking about? Kitchen cabinets?
Or things like dressers and hutches?
To me, if you want a high end cabinet you make it with dovetails.
--- Gregg
My woodworking projects:
Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
Steambending FAQ with photos:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
"Improvise, adapt, overcome."
[email protected]
Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558
RemodGuy <[email protected]> wrote:
:> Hi Rich,
:>
:> When yu say "cabinets" what are you talking about? Kitchen cabinets?
:> Or things like dressers and hutches?
:>
:> To me, if you want a high end cabinet you make it with dovetails.
:>
:>
: "dovetails"?? what the hell are you talking about?
the carcase
> read these posts.
: we're talking face frames, not drawers. morbid curiousity forces me
: to ask you to post pics of your dovetailed face frames and doors,
Not drawers either. The carcase.
--
--- Gregg
"Improvise, adapt, overcome."
[email protected]
Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558
RemodGuy <[email protected]> wrote:
: "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
:> He was talking cabinets, and even stated "high end cabinets". Dovetails
:> _are_ a traditional way to join the carcass parts of many types of
:> "cabinets, particularly in furniture like "dressers and hutches."
: yes, but more specifically, he asked about M&T and pocket holes. from
: there the posts naturally went to doors and face frames (as i'm sure
: it was intended to do).
He started out with a very general question about high end
cabinets. it wasn't until the bottom of his post that he mentioned
face frames.
So I felt I wasn't violating the laws of the Universe to discuss how
high end carcasses are put together.
This seems to both you....
--- Gregg
"Improvise, adapt, overcome."
[email protected]
Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558
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RemodGuy <[email protected]> wrote:
: My first instinct when i hear "cabinets" is kitchen/bath. "furniture"
: would lead me to dressers and hutches.
You are welcome to your instincts, but I don't share them.
The terms "cabinetry" and "cabinetmaker" are quite often used with
regard to fine furniture. I would imagine it's not a stretch to think
that cabinetmakers make...well...cabinets.
Perhaps you disagree.
: Regardless, are you saying
: that dovetails can be used to attack face frames to boxes or sides to
: backs, etc?
;^) No, although I don't approach my cabinetmaking with a high level
of violence ;^)
Neither am I saying one would *attach* face frames to boxes, or
sides to backs, using dovetail joints.
Nor have I ever said it. Or even implied it, much less ever thought
of doing it.
: Thanks
You are entirely welcome.
--- Gregg
My woodworking projects:
Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
Steambending FAQ with photos:
http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
"Improvise, adapt, overcome."
[email protected]
Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics
Phone: (617) 496-1558
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ------------------
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fast, efficient and reliable. For home servers or carrier class
installations with millions of users it will allow you to grow!
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I can think of several applications where a pocket hole screw would be
much stronger than a M&T. I prefer Pocket holes due to strength and
speed and ease. M&T really slows things down. Might consider it IF I
had a wealthy customer who could appreciate such things. Maybe.
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:25:56 GMT, Richard Holliingsworth
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Hello:
>
>For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
>joints?
>
>Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and
>production pocket hole machines. They all run
>around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which
>I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is,
>which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also
>know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face
>frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be
>more versitle???
>
>So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you
>recommend?
>
>
>Thanks,
>Richard Hollingsworth
Hell these things are just kitchen cabinets nothing special, they have been
making the same old thing for the last 50 years just dressing then up here
or there or perhaps calling them "european" or the like . just buy a used
double doweling machine and you can do the joints in a complete kitchen in a
day . mjh
--
"Jeff Cochran" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:25:56 GMT, Richard Holliingsworth
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
> >joints?
>
> One thing not mentioned in other posts is a design consideration. If
> you want the look of a tenon joint, pocket holes won't help. Granted,
> that's rarely an issue in cabinetry, but it might be in yours.
>
> We have one local artisan who finger joints face frames on cabinetry,
> using dissimilar woods. The pieces are extraordinary, and naturally
> the cost is considerably more. But these are as much art pieces as
> cabinetry.
>
> So pretty much it all depends on your particular style, taste and
> design. If you're looking at buying this equipment, you've been doing
> this long enough to have a good idea of waht your business is, and
> where you'd like it to go. Base your decision on that.
>
> Jeff
Phisherman wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:20:53 -0600, Lawrence A. Ramsey
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I can think of several applications where a pocket hole
>> screw would be much stronger than a M&T. I prefer Pocket
>> holes due to strength and speed and ease. M&T really slows
>> things down. Might consider it IF I had a wealthy customer
>> who could appreciate such things. Maybe.
> I've seen numerous tests that show M&T to be the strongest
> joint. Pocket holes are fast and easy, and probably strong
> enough for many applications. Personally, I would not use
> them if the ugly oval-hole plugs show.
I would think that the application would be the determining
factor. For example, I can't imagine that steel wouldn't be
better at resisting shear; and I would expect a good M&T joint to
better resist racking.
I've been playing with modified lap joints that lock together in
3D. I'm posting sketches of three of these in
news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking if anyone's interested.
--
Morris Dovey
West Des Moines, Iowa USA
"RemodGuy" wrote in message
>>"Gregg Germain" wrote in message>
> > Hi Rich,
> >
> > When yu say "cabinets" what are you talking about? Kitchen cabinets?
> > Or things like dressers and hutches?
> >
> > To me, if you want a high end cabinet you make it with dovetails.
> >
> >
> "dovetails"?? what the hell are you talking about? read these posts.
> we're talking face frames, not drawers. morbid curiousity forces me
> to ask you to post pics of your dovetailed face frames and doors,
He was talking cabinets, and even stated "high end cabinets". Dovetails
_are_ a traditional way to join the carcass parts of many types of
"cabinets, particularly in furniture like "dressers and hutches."
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/05/04
"Richard Holliingsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Hello:
>
> For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
> joints?
>
> Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and
> production pocket hole machines. They all run
> around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which
> I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is,
> which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also
> know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face
> frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be
> more versitle???
>
> So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you
> recommend?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Richard Hollingsworth
>
Mortise and tenon for everything I build but I cut mortises with a
horizontal router station I built some years back. It works adequately and
more important consistently. I'm not building cabinets in "production" but
more generally in onsite custom jobs and this thing can easily be loaded in
the trailer and brought to the job I categorize pocket screws as shortcuts
but there are times when they must be used. I do wonder about your use of
the word production. Are you actually doing continual repetitive cabinet
joinery?
EJ
Lazarus Long wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:29:15 -0600, Morris Dovey
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I would think that the application would be the determining
>> factor. For example, I can't imagine that steel wouldn't be
>> better at resisting shear; and I would expect a good M&T
>> joint to better resist racking.
>
> The steel may not break with that shear load but don't you
> think the wood around it would give way instead, resulting in
> a failure anyway?
If we apply enough force we can probably break about anything.
There's not much point in considering forces capable of breaking
the joined pieces themselves.
I'm thinking that it has to be considerably more difficult to
pull a screw out sideways than out straight; and that (if you
consider the combined dimensions of the screw shafts) 1/8" by
1/4" (two screws) or 1/8" by 3/8" (three screws) of steel would
probably be less prone to damage from shearing forces than an
appropriately sized tenon.
The racking situation might be slightly different, since the
applied forces will tend to pull the screws straight out, with
the forces applied to the screws in a very unbalanced fashion. My
guess is that a well-fit and well-glued tenon /might/ provide an
advantage over the pocket screws for this kind of stress.
I'm not an expert. If anyone has any authoratative information on
this, I'd really appreciate if you jumped in now.
--
Morris Dovey
West Des Moines, Iowa USA
For high end cabinets with face frames, I still use pocket holes unless
somebody wants to pay extra for M&T. I use M&T and other classic joints for
furniture. For that, I have a Powermatic mortiser.
However, lately I have turned more to doing mortise and tenons with a
router. The jigs are simple, the milling is cleaner than seen with the
hollow chisel mortiser and I am convinced I have a stronger joint. Also,
when using a router, you can do a through M&T without worrying as much about
tearout as you go through. You still need a backer board, but even with a
backer board, there usually is some tearout with a hollow chisel mortiser.
So for me, since I can do the M&T easily with a router, I would go for the
pocket hole machine.
Preston
"Richard Holliingsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Hello:
>
> For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
> joints?
>
> Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and
> production pocket hole machines. They all run
> around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which
> I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is,
> which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also
> know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face
> frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be
> more versitle???
>
> So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you
> recommend?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Richard Hollingsworth
>
IMHO Cabinets are not "fine furniture"... their expected lifetime is 30
years (give or take). I expect hierloom furniture to be good for at least a
century. This justifies differnet techniques.
In my kitchen cabs I used both:
For cabinet face frames.... Pocket holes all the way. They never show, and
it just makes like "way too easy".
For the doors, I used M&T..... However I am proabbly in the minority there.
The mainstream answer would probably be to use rail and stile cutters which
forms an integrated "stub tennon" on the rail.
Personally I would never use pocket holes on a door. PHJ is really ugly but
functional, doors are just way to visible.
"Richard Holliingsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Hello:
>
> For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
> joints?
>
> Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and
> production pocket hole machines. They all run
> around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which
> I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is,
> which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also
> know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face
> frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be
> more versitle???
>
> So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you
> recommend?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Richard Hollingsworth
>
It depends on the primary work you'll be doing. If you're a custom cabinet
shop doing mostly kiitche/bath cabinets, go with the pocket hole machine.
You probably won't use that many M&T's in your construction. Cope and stick
joinery is plenty strong for the average size kitchen cabinet door. If you
do furniture in your shop go with the mortiser it's more versitle.
If the cabinets are tied down (kitchens or baths); I use pocket screws.
Inexpensive built ins like book case units will use pocket holes as well.
If the item is free standing or built in in the "furniture" class; I use
dovetail joints or M&T.
--
Alan Bierbaum
Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Recent Project Page: http://www.calanb.com/recent.html
Workbench project: http://www.calanb.com/wbench.html
"Richard Holliingsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Hello:
>
> For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
> joints?
>
> Thanks,
> Richard Hollingsworth
>
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:hshWb.2043$jk2.7325@attbi_s53...
> How about a picture of that machine? It sounds interesting.
>
> Dave
Dave,
Haven't stepped up to the digital photo age yet but this will get you close.
Shopnotes issue #68 has the same concept with a few spins on it that are
considerably better designed than what I built. Following is a link to the
shopnotes back issue store that has a picture as well as the issue has
plans. If you look close at the pic in the link you can see angled slides
for setting the table height, this is a superior design to mine as I built
mine with 2 verticle slots with locknuts which makes setup a little more
complicated. Still works great though.
http://store.yahoo.com/backissuesstore/sn068.html
EJ
> Hi Rich,
>
> When yu say "cabinets" what are you talking about? Kitchen cabinets?
> Or things like dressers and hutches?
>
> To me, if you want a high end cabinet you make it with dovetails.
>
>
"dovetails"?? what the hell are you talking about? read these posts.
we're talking face frames, not drawers. morbid curiousity forces me
to ask you to post pics of your dovetailed face frames and doors,
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> He was talking cabinets, and even stated "high end cabinets". Dovetails
> _are_ a traditional way to join the carcass parts of many types of
> "cabinets, particularly in furniture like "dressers and hutches."
yes, but more specifically, he asked about M&T and pocket holes. from
there the posts naturally went to doors and face frames (as i'm sure
it was intended to do).
My first instinct when i hear "cabinets" is kitchen/bath. "furniture"
would lead me to dressers and hutches. Regardless, are you saying
that dovetails can be used to attack face frames to boxes or sides to
backs, etc? If so, please describe the process, as i have never seen
an example.
Thanks
> He was talking cabinets, and even stated "high end cabinets". Dovetails
> _are_ a traditional way to join the carcass parts of many types of
> "cabinets, particularly in furniture like "dressers and hutches."
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:20:53 -0600, Lawrence A. Ramsey
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I can think of several applications where a pocket hole screw would be
>much stronger than a M&T. I prefer Pocket holes due to strength and
>speed and ease. M&T really slows things down. Might consider it IF I
>had a wealthy customer who could appreciate such things. Maybe.
>
I've seen numerous tests that show M&T to be the strongest joint.
Pocket holes are fast and easy, and probably strong enough for many
applications. Personally, I would not use them if the ugly oval-hole
plugs show.
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:25:56 GMT, Richard Holliingsworth
<[email protected]> wrote:
>For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
>joints?
One thing not mentioned in other posts is a design consideration. If
you want the look of a tenon joint, pocket holes won't help. Granted,
that's rarely an issue in cabinetry, but it might be in yours.
We have one local artisan who finger joints face frames on cabinetry,
using dissimilar woods. The pieces are extraordinary, and naturally
the cost is considerably more. But these are as much art pieces as
cabinetry.
So pretty much it all depends on your particular style, taste and
design. If you're looking at buying this equipment, you've been doing
this long enough to have a good idea of waht your business is, and
where you'd like it to go. Base your decision on that.
Jeff
How about a picture of that machine? It sounds interesting.
Dave
"Eric Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Richard Holliingsworth" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
> > Hello:
> >
> > For those who build high end cabinets-----Do you use pocket holes or M&T
> > joints?
> >
> > Here's my concern. I'm looking at several stationary mortisers and
> > production pocket hole machines. They all run
> > around 700.00 to 900.00. In that range, it really dosen't matter which
> > I buy as far as price goes. So then the question is,
> > which is preferred. I understand pocket holes are faster, but I also
> > know they are not as strong as clasic M&T. So fine, in a cabinet face
> > frame - who cares? But what about other projects. Would the M&T be
> > more versitle???
> >
> > So, IF you are going to spend that kind of money, which type do you
> > recommend?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Richard Hollingsworth
> >
>
>
> Mortise and tenon for everything I build but I cut mortises with a
> horizontal router station I built some years back. It works adequately
and
> more important consistently. I'm not building cabinets in "production"
but
> more generally in onsite custom jobs and this thing can easily be loaded
in
> the trailer and brought to the job I categorize pocket screws as
shortcuts
> but there are times when they must be used. I do wonder about your use of
> the word production. Are you actually doing continual repetitive cabinet
> joinery?
>
> EJ
>
>
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:29:15 -0600, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I would think that the application would be the determining
>factor. For example, I can't imagine that steel wouldn't be
>better at resisting shear; and I would expect a good M&T joint to
>better resist racking.
>
The steel may not break with that shear load but don't you think the
wood around it would give way instead, resulting in a failure anyway?
"RemodGuy" wrote in message
>>>"RemodGuy" wrote in message
>>> "dovetails"?? what the hell are you talking about? read these posts.
>>> we're talking face frames, not drawers. morbid curiousity forces me
>>> to ask you to post pics of your dovetailed face frames and doors,
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> > He was talking cabinets, and even stated "high end cabinets". Dovetails
> > _are_ a traditional way to join the carcass parts of many types of
> > "cabinets, particularly in furniture like "dressers and hutches."
>
> yes, but more specifically, he asked about M&T and pocket holes. from
> there the posts naturally went to doors and face frames (as i'm sure
> it was intended to do).
... "more specifically" the OP excluded face frames from the discussion in
the very first post in the thread.
So much for "read these posts.", eh.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/05/04