Yeah, it is cold is SE Kansas. The kerosene heater + help from an
electric cube heater does a pretty good job but looking to upgrade.
When we built the house last year we had the plumber provide a "T",
valve and plug in the basement for future routing of natural gas
through the basement sill into the garage. I am wanting to put a
permanent heat solution in the 1,000 sf. garage shop that will
minimize impact on floor space. The garage is pretty well insulated
with 6" walls, R-19 overhead and insulated and well mounted overhead
doors.
I was wondering what kind of experience is available from rec'ers in
the following areas:
- Overhead Furnaces
- Wall-Mounted Ventless
- Overhead infrared
- Anything I have not listed
As usual, cost is important but so is a reasonable fast warm-up rate.
My kero unit can pull temperature up about 20 degrees in 1 to 1-1/2
hours on a pretty cold morning (15-30 degrees). Regarding cost I must
consider both installation and longer-term cost to operate the
system. Operating cost is probably most important.
Any help appreciated.
RonB
"RonB" wrote:
> Yeah, it is cold is SE Kansas. The kerosene heater + help from an
> electric cube heater does a pretty good job but looking to upgrade.
>
> When we built the house last year we had the plumber provide a "T",
> valve and plug in the basement for future routing of natural gas
> through the basement sill into the garage. I am wanting to put a
> permanent heat solution in the 1,000 sf. garage shop that will
> minimize impact on floor space. The garage is pretty well insulated
> with 6" walls, R-19 overhead and insulated and well mounted overhead
> doors.
>
> I was wondering what kind of experience is available from rec'ers in
> the following areas:
<snip>
------------------------------------------------
Having lived thru MidWest winters for the majority of my life, can
attest to the fact there is nothing like hydronic heating.
If I were to return to cold weather, hydronic heating would be a must.
Higher install cost, lower operating cost than forced air.
Humidity is not a problem as it is with forced air.
Since you are using a hot water boiler, can pull combustion air in
from the outside and vent exhaust outside without bothering with make
up air problems and the associated heat loss problems.
It's worth a conversation with a good heating contractor.
Lew
"Morris Dovey" wrote:
================================
> I've bragged on this shop heating set-up before, but I'll extend the
> old brag...
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
-------------------------------------
The clear winner.
Give that man a cigar.
I engaged keyboard before doing a memory scan.
Lew
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
> Would you use anti-freeze in the system? For the weekend user, it
> would be expensive to keep it heated all the time even though that
> would be nice for both the wood and finishes stored there.
That depends.
The recirc pump is going to operate 24/7.
Base piping is 3/4".
In order to be effective, you need turbulent flow which puts you in at
least the 4'-6'/minute flow rate.
Going to take some sustained period below freezing to effect that type
of flow.
As I said, that depends.
Given a well insulated space, maintaining 60F shouldn't break the bank
while keeping things stable.
Lew
"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>
>> If I were to return to cold weather, hydronic heating would be a must.
>>
>> Higher install cost, lower operating cost than forced air.
>
>Would you use anti-freeze in the system? For the weekend user, it would be
>expensive to keep it heated all the time even though that would be nice for
>both the wood and finishes stored there.
>
I have a 24'x28' shop attached to the house, hydronic heat supplied by
a conventional (30gal?) propane hot water heater circulating plain
water.
Thermostat is usually at 55F, but I may bump it to a cozy 60F if I
expect to have a full day to work in the shop. Weeknights I wear a
sweatshirt. At 60F, I might wear a long sleeve cotton shirt, but the
sleeves are usually rolled up. Somehow the heat radiating out of the
floor just makes you feel warmer. I ran it up to 70F once, it made me
want to take a nap...
Here in central Ohio, I heat the shop from about mid-November to
April. The water heater is set to run at about 90-95F, (between WARM
and VACATION). The circulating pump runs only when the thermostat
calls for it. I can not say exactly what I pay for shop heat as the
propane tank also supplies the kitchen range and clothes dryer.(Home
heat and domestic hot water are electric - geothermal) We use about
100 gallons of propane per year.
My only regret is that we do not have hydronic heat in the house. I
just could not justify the cost of radiant heat plus a separate A/C
system.
In article
<7303eefd-9345-4436-a7fc-eb97ecefc182@d20g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
[email protected] says...
>Yeah, it is cold is SE Kansas. The kerosene heater + help from an
>electric cube heater does a pretty good job but looking to upgrade.
>
>When we built the house last year we had the plumber provide a "T",
>valve and plug in the basement for future routing of natural gas
>through the basement sill into the garage. I am wanting to put a
>permanent heat solution in the 1,000 sf. garage shop that will
>minimize impact on floor space. The garage is pretty well insulated
>with 6" walls, R-19 overhead and insulated and well mounted overhead
>doors.
>
>I was wondering what kind of experience is available from rec'ers in
>the following areas:
>
>- Overhead Furnaces
>- Wall-Mounted Ventless
>- Overhead infrared
I live in northern Ohio and my garage is 660 sq ft. R13 walls and R19
ceilings, insulated garage doors. I use a 21,000 btu Warm Morning
through-the-wall furnace (direct vent) when I need to. It works
perfectly and is actually more than I really need and has a fairly low
duty cycle when on. I replaced the blower with a heat-rated higher flow
model and it help circulation quite a bit.
--
Dennis
In article <[email protected]>, Nonny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>My concern was that without the forced air and NONsyphon-type
>system, I'd be losing heat when there was no sunshine. Is that a
>problem or issue with your installation?
Nope. he's got that matter solved.
> Have you considered some
>type of free-swinging dampers on the intakes to prevent
>counterflow.
He considered it, and came up with a better solution.
> Is there counterflow at night?
Nope.
>My next door neighbor told me that the coating of the aluminum
>separator should be on both the front and back: the best
>collector is also the best emitter.
That is true.
> He also reminded me that IR
>is just another frequency and that a half wavelength antenna is
>what I want.
*THAT* is nonsense. For antenna construction the 1/2-lambda figure is
for a _center-fed_ dipole -- oriented _perpendicular to the direction of
the radiation. The 'depth' of the antenna (i.e., in the same direction as
the radiation is coming)` is irrelevant.
Note: there is nothing 'magic' about 1/2 wavelength. _Any_ odd multiple
of lambda/2 will work at least as well.
> I don't recall exactly, but 4 mils on both sides
>rings a bell.
IR wavelengths are around 600-1000 _nano_-meters. I'll let you work
out the conversion, and figure out how far off you are. *IF* it was
a meaningful calculation, in the first place.
> What do you do for the coating, coating thickness
>etc?
"what works". <grin>
A 'black body' absorber is good. The right kind of IR-reflective glass
may also be beneficial in some circumstances. (when you grok _why_ that
latter statement is true, you'll have begun to have a _real_ understanding
of how passive solar heating works. :)
On Jan 4, 3:00=A0am, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> > If I were to return to cold weather, hydronic heating would be a must.
>
> > Higher install cost, lower operating cost than forced air.
>
> Would you use anti-freeze in the system? =A0For the weekend user, it woul=
d be
> expensive to keep it heated all the time even though that would be nice f=
or
> both the wood and finishes stored there.
If it's not going to be heated all the time, antifreeze is a must.
And even if it is, a long power failure could result in burst pipes.
Water in a hydronic system where temperatures stay below freezing for
a long time is pound foolish.
Luigi
who has propylene glycol in his heating system.
On Jan 3, 11:54=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "RonB" wrote:
> > Yeah, it is cold is SE Kansas. =A0The kerosene heater + help from an
> > electric cube heater does a pretty good job but looking to upgrade.
>
> > When we built the house last year we had the plumber provide a "T",
> > valve and plug in the basement for future routing of natural gas
> > through the basement sill into the garage. =A0I am wanting to put a
> > permanent heat solution in the 1,000 sf. garage shop that will
> > minimize impact on floor space. =A0The garage is pretty well insulated
> > with 6" walls, R-19 overhead and insulated and well mounted overhead
> > doors.
>
> > I was wondering what kind of experience is available from rec'ers in
> > the following areas:
>
> <snip>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Having lived thru MidWest winters for the majority of my life, can
> attest to the fact there =A0is nothing like hydronic heating.
>
> If I were to return to cold weather, hydronic heating would be a must.
>
> Higher install cost, lower operating cost than forced air.
Why would a hydronic system have a lower operating cost? Filters?
Forced air has faster recovery but for a shop, filters might be an
issue.
> Humidity is not a problem as it is with forced air.
Because you can drop a mold maker in the plenum? Raising the
temperature of air will "dry" it out. Hydronic shouldn't be any
different than forced air.
> Since you are using a hot water boiler, can pull combustion air in
> from the outside and vent exhaust outside without bothering with make
> up air problems and the associated heat loss problems.
Forced air systems have a heat exchanger, too. It should be possible
to use outside air for combustion. Don't know if it's done, though.
> It's worth a conversation with a good heating contractor.
I'd certainly agree with that.
I've had hydronic systems in my previous two houses. I didn't like
the recovery time, but with a set-back thermostat I could anticipate
temperature changes. We'd have about a 7F delta programmed in, with a
couple of bumps per day.
Our current house has forced cold air "heat" (heat pumps). I don't
much like them, but we only have half the delta-T to make up (VT vs.
AL).
On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 00:56:18 -0600, the infamous Morris Dovey
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 1/3/2010 8:30 PM, RonB wrote:
>> Yeah, it is cold is SE Kansas. The kerosene heater + help from an
>> electric cube heater does a pretty good job but looking to upgrade.
>>
>> When we built the house last year we had the plumber provide a "T",
>> valve and plug in the basement for future routing of natural gas
>> through the basement sill into the garage. I am wanting to put a
>> permanent heat solution in the 1,000 sf. garage shop that will
>> minimize impact on floor space. The garage is pretty well insulated
>> with 6" walls, R-19 overhead and insulated and well mounted overhead
>> doors.
>>
>> I was wondering what kind of experience is available from rec'ers in
>> the following areas:
>>
>> - Overhead Furnaces
>> - Wall-Mounted Ventless
>> - Overhead infrared
>> - Anything I have not listed
>>
>> As usual, cost is important but so is a reasonable fast warm-up rate.
>
>I've bragged on this shop heating set-up before, but I'll extend the old
>brag...
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
That first pic is a doozy. Boy, and I thought _I_ had gopher problems.
>This 1200 ft^2 shop has remained above 65°F day and night for more than
>two years now, and the gas and electricity savings are now more than the
>original cost of the panels - meaning that for the next 20 winters the
>shop will be warm 24/7 without spending even a dime for heat.
>
>The indoor/outdoor thermometer here reads -4°F.
Cool, er, warm!
--
Society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness.
--Thomas Paine
On Sun, 3 Jan 2010 18:30:05 -0800 (PST), RonB <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Yeah, it is cold is SE Kansas. The kerosene heater + help from an
>electric cube heater does a pretty good job but looking to upgrade.
>
>When we built the house last year we had the plumber provide a "T",
>valve and plug in the basement for future routing of natural gas
>through the basement sill into the garage. I am wanting to put a
>permanent heat solution in the 1,000 sf. garage shop that will
>minimize impact on floor space. The garage is pretty well insulated
>with 6" walls, R-19 overhead and insulated and well mounted overhead
>doors.
>
>I was wondering what kind of experience is available from rec'ers in
>the following areas:
>
>- Overhead Furnaces
>- Wall-Mounted Ventless
>- Overhead infrared
>- Anything I have not listed
>
>As usual, cost is important but so is a reasonable fast warm-up rate.
>My kero unit can pull temperature up about 20 degrees in 1 to 1-1/2
>hours on a pretty cold morning (15-30 degrees). Regarding cost I must
>consider both installation and longer-term cost to operate the
>system. Operating cost is probably most important.
>
>Any help appreciated.
>
>RonB
I have a stand alone building with a woodstove no problem with heat.
When I built it I did multiple layers of gravel and insulation under a
6" slab, and can heat the 16x32x10' space with a 1500 watt heater most
of the year. If not a code problem pellet stoves are great.
Mike M
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
That's a very clean-looking installation. When we had a home in
Fort Wayne, IN, I built a 4 X 8' panel and placed it outside my
workshop. It was just an experimental thing, so I didn't do much
in the way of a permanent installation. The panel introduced air
at the outside top of the panel, where it flowed down a corrugated
aluminum separator to the bottom, then back up the backside, where
there was a thermostat and small blower. The panel was piped into
the top of a double hung window, which was opened about 6", with a
plywood header inserted and two ducts running to the panel: air
in and air out.
My concern was that without the forced air and NONsyphon-type
system, I'd be losing heat when there was no sunshine. Is that a
problem or issue with your installation? Have you considered some
type of free-swinging dampers on the intakes to prevent
counterflow. Is there counterflow at night?
My next door neighbor told me that the coating of the aluminum
separator should be on both the front and back: the best
collector is also the best emitter. He also reminded me that IR
is just another frequency and that a half wavelength antenna is
what I want. I don't recall exactly, but 4 mils on both sides
rings a bell. What do you do for the coating, coating thickness
etc?
--
Nonny
ELOQUIDIOT (n) A highly educated, sophisticated,
and articulate person who has absolutely no clue
concerning what they are talking about.
The person is typically a media commentator or politician.
On 01/04/2010 05:00 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>>
>> If I were to return to cold weather, hydronic heating would be a must.
>>
>> Higher install cost, lower operating cost than forced air.
>
> Would you use anti-freeze in the system? For the weekend user, it would be
> expensive to keep it heated all the time even though that would be nice for
> both the wood and finishes stored there.
Hydronic has lots of thermal mass, making it slow to heat and slow to
cool. Not ideal for quickly heating up on weekends.
I've got a Lennox unit heater (similar to the Hot Dawg mentioned
before). At 45K Btu it's oversized for the double garage, but it heats
up pretty quick which is good for my own weekend warrior ways.
Incidentally, you can use an old metal coil thermostat to keep the
temperature just above freezing. Normally they don't go that low, but
if you mount it with a single screw you can just twist the whole
thermostat body to get lower temperatures. I have tick marks on the
wall to tell me where to set the case corner for particular temperatures.
Chris
RonB wrote:
> Yeah, it is cold is SE Kansas. The kerosene heater + help from an
> electric cube heater does a pretty good job but looking to upgrade.
>
> When we built the house last year we had the plumber provide a "T",
> valve and plug in the basement for future routing of natural gas
> through the basement sill into the garage.
Modine Hot Dawg available at many places
http://www.gas-space-heater.com/modine-hot-dawg.html
Thanks for the input.
The garage is attached to the north side of the house so solar is not
an option unless we go to the roof. We did build a passive solar
addition onto a previous house and will attest to its effectiveness.
This place uses good exposure on the living side.
Starting to lean to infrared. The hardest things to warm up, and be
comfortable working with, are the metal surfaces in the shop (saws,
etc.) I believe IR would start warming them first.
RonB
On 1/3/2010 8:30 PM, RonB wrote:
> Yeah, it is cold is SE Kansas. The kerosene heater + help from an
> electric cube heater does a pretty good job but looking to upgrade.
>
> When we built the house last year we had the plumber provide a "T",
> valve and plug in the basement for future routing of natural gas
> through the basement sill into the garage. I am wanting to put a
> permanent heat solution in the 1,000 sf. garage shop that will
> minimize impact on floor space. The garage is pretty well insulated
> with 6" walls, R-19 overhead and insulated and well mounted overhead
> doors.
>
> I was wondering what kind of experience is available from rec'ers in
> the following areas:
>
> - Overhead Furnaces
> - Wall-Mounted Ventless
> - Overhead infrared
> - Anything I have not listed
>
> As usual, cost is important but so is a reasonable fast warm-up rate.
I've bragged on this shop heating set-up before, but I'll extend the old
brag...
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
This 1200 ft^2 shop has remained above 65°F day and night for more than
two years now, and the gas and electricity savings are now more than the
original cost of the panels - meaning that for the next 20 winters the
shop will be warm 24/7 without spending even a dime for heat.
The indoor/outdoor thermometer here reads -4°F.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 1/4/2010 1:25 PM, Robert Bonomi wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, Nonny<[email protected]> wrote:
Sorry, Nonny's post hasn't arrived here yet, or I'd have responded
sooner. Robert's answers are on the mark - and I'll add a little that I
suspect he's figured out but left for me to say...
>> My concern was that without the forced air and NONsyphon-type
>> system, I'd be losing heat when there was no sunshine. Is that a
>> problem or issue with your installation?
>
> Nope. he's got that matter solved.
>
>> Have you considered some
>> type of free-swinging dampers on the intakes to prevent
>> counterflow.
>
> He considered it, and came up with a better solution.
>
>> Is there counterflow at night?
>
> Nope.
>
>> My next door neighbor told me that the coating of the aluminum
>> separator should be on both the front and back: the best
>> collector is also the best emitter.
>
> That is true.
I'll interject that I don't have a "separator" as Nonny speaks of it - I
have an absorber constructed of formed 0.1 mm glossy black aluminum
ribbon that absorbs and re-radiates on _both_ sides - formed, oriented,
and spaced in such a way that emitted energy is directed almost entirely
at adjacent ribbons.
There's a concept (_not_ design!) drawing at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Astro/SC_Types.html
That shows how counterflow is prevented and hints as to how the absorber
is configured.
>> He also reminded me that IR
>> is just another frequency and that a half wavelength antenna is
>> what I want.
>
> *THAT* is nonsense. For antenna construction the 1/2-lambda figure is
> for a _center-fed_ dipole -- oriented _perpendicular to the direction of
> the radiation. The 'depth' of the antenna (i.e., in the same direction as
> the radiation is coming)` is irrelevant.
>
> Note: there is nothing 'magic' about 1/2 wavelength. _Any_ odd multiple
> of lambda/2 will work at least as well.
>
>> I don't recall exactly, but 4 mils on both sides
>> rings a bell.
I'd take that with a grain of salt.
> IR wavelengths are around 600-1000 _nano_-meters. I'll let you work
> out the conversion, and figure out how far off you are. *IF* it was
> a meaningful calculation, in the first place.
>
>> What do you do for the coating, coating thickness
>> etc?
>
> "what works".<grin>
Etc's aren't allowed. The coating is the thinnest glossy black
powdercoat I could order.
> A 'black body' absorber is good. The right kind of IR-reflective glass
> may also be beneficial in some circumstances. (when you grok _why_ that
> latter statement is true, you'll have begun to have a _real_ understanding
> of how passive solar heating works. :)
Wikipedia has articles on black/gray bodies, black body radiation,
temperature viscosity of air, and laminar flow that I found exceedingly
helpful - and I'd have had a difficult time sorting a lot of this stuff
without some high-quality coaching/mentoring from real physicists over
on alt.solar.thermal
Funny thing, tho - every time they "helped" my head hurt for a week. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> If I were to return to cold weather, hydronic heating would be a must.
>
> Higher install cost, lower operating cost than forced air.
Would you use anti-freeze in the system? For the weekend user, it would be
expensive to keep it heated all the time even though that would be nice for
both the wood and finishes stored there.