shop heat....dedux? lol

The famous http://www.easyradiantworks.com/ezdoz.htm



skeezics wrote:

> built the shop a year or so ago. 24 x 32 with full storage upstairs.
> 12 x 12 pitch roof makes a nice storage area. heated last winter with

For about one year, I'll work in my newly constructed garage. About
24x28 with 14-foot ceilings. California regs are tough, so this
building is tight, thermally. I bought a 220v plug in heater to take
the chill out. 1kw produces about 4000 btus. A 400 sq ft garage, if
insulated, would require about 5000+ btus to heat comfortably. So you
can gauge the heat demand, a house built to modern code will need about
12,000 btu's for every 800 ft/sq of living space.

I chose a portable electric heater over a pot-bellied stove, kerosone
barn heater, pellet stove, or propane heater. Worried about fire,
fumes, oxygen depletion, soot, ashes, and the fact that my small
electric can be moved around close to me.

All bets are off on btu ratings if your attic is porous or the windows
and walls aren't insulated. When my full-sized shop is built, it will
be heated and air-conditioned using a Geothermal Heat Pump. With
radiant piping in the floor. But that is another story.

Gary Curtis
Los Angeles

Great idea, Pat. 40,000 btu would make your shop toasty, and even with
radiant, the drafts in the attic/ceiling area wouldn't be much of a
problem. My present house (I'm moving in 6 weeks) is heated entirely
with radiant.

It makes every machine in a shop warm to the touch.

Gary Curtis

I've got the Fahrenheat version of that Dayton at the top of your list.
My garashop is a little smaller than yours, about 18 x 19, but it's
detached and uninsulated. I'm going to insulate it and tighten it up
this winter. So far this unit has done very well here in south central
Wisconsin. It can keep the inside at over 60 while it's 32 outside,
which has been just fine for finishing up the latest project. I won't
be leaving it on all night till I've got the insulation up, but I
already know it will let me do rough work inside the shop when it's
really cold outside. Then, when I've got the space down to a nice
insulated 2500 cubic feet, I think it will keep everything above
freezing and let me make sawdust all next winter. Barring the beginning
of the next ice age, of course.

I think that unit's going to be a little small for your setup, though,
especially if you're going to heat the upper storage too. If you close
up the lower part and place the heater well, then it'll probably be
good for down to 10 degrees F. But then, I'm not you and I don't mind
experimenting with your money. :-) All I can say is I'm satisfied with
this unit for my own needs.

In my neck of the woods, propane, natural gas, and oil are increasing
so much faster than electric that electric is now competitive,
especially after you figure in the cost of buying and installing a gas
or oil unit. For me, a system that's as safe and odor free as the
electric wouldn't break even for some years. I don't like it and it
goes against everything I 'm used to, but I've run the numbers and done
the forecasting, and electric keeps winning for this little bitty shop.
If there was more cubic footage, it'd be different.

I've priced it, but right now the sunshine outside my window is dull
gray with white stuff going sideways. Not sure how much heat I'm gonna
get outta that. :-)

Ya got a point. After I've gotten this shop buttoned up, a little solar
backup wouldn't be a bad idea at all. But with lots of buildings and
trees around, even without leaves, I'll have to keep an eye on the shop
with respect to available sunlight this winter. The backyard's nice for
a lot of things, but sunlight isn't one of them. None of the walls get
much sun.

skeezics <[email protected]> writes:

>built the shop a year or so ago. 24 x 32 with full storage upstairs.
>12 x 12 pitch roof makes a nice storage area. heated last winter with
>a 175000 btu kerosene heater and learned some lessons

I am curious where you are located and how much it cost to build your
shop? I am in the planning stages of a shop to be built next
spring/summer of about the same size. I would like to include attic
storage if possible, but I'm not sure I want to shingle a 12/12 pitch
roof.

I would insulate at the same time heat is installed. Propane is almost
always cheaper than electric heat unless your electric is really, really
cheap.

Your local supplier can provide you with a large above ground tank that
should last a whole season. If you contact the local propane supplier and
tell them you are thinking about electric over propane, often they will do
things such as running the piping for free. I've heard of people
sometimes getting a free propane heater.

Brian Elfert

"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> writes:

>Well, OK - but have you priced sunshine lately? :-)

Might work okay in Pheonix, but who needs heat in Pheonix?

Here in Minnesota, I just heard we average around six sunny days in
November. A lot of our other winter months aren't much better.

My new shop will probably have natural gas heat even though equipment is
somewhat expensive. I believe natural gas would have to at least double
to equal electric. Electricity is likely to increase in cost as other
energy sources cost more.

Brian Elfert

Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 11:52pm (EST+5) [email protected] (skeezics) doth
burble:
<snip> gas heat is just 1 more thing to run to town for in the middle of
important shop time. <snip>

Maybe for you. Me, I'd have at least one spare tank. Or, a
couple of the big tanks, then when one ran out, call the gas guy to come
out and fill it.



JOAT
Just pretend I'm not here. That's what I'm doing.

Many heating and cooling guys end up with heat pumps that
are "too small" for certain jobs. They will often sell these
at VERY low prices to get rid of them. I have seen 2.5 ton
systems for "around" $1200.


skeezics wrote:


> gas is out. our propane has tripled in the last 5 years. i realize it
> is probly better but......
>
> skeez

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:27:55 GMT, Pat Barber
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The famous http://www.easyradiantworks.com/ezdoz.htm
>
>
>
>skeezics wrote:
>
>> built the shop a year or so ago. 24 x 32 with full storage upstairs.
>> 12 x 12 pitch roof makes a nice storage area. heated last winter with

gas is out. our propane has tripled in the last 5 years. i realize it
is probly better but......

skeez

"skeezics" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> built the shop a year or so ago. 24 x 32 with full storage upstairs.
> 12 x 12 pitch roof makes a nice storage area. heated last winter with
> a 175000 btu kerosene heater and learned some lessons

> i want something that will heat it up quick and
> keep it above 45 degrees on cold days. the 300 dollar one says it will
> heat up to 500 SF i got nearly 800 SF to heat. im not lookin to make
> it toasty warm so this may work. here are some links to what i found
> so far. any suggestions? or alternatives?

How much heat do you need? The best way to find out is to do hte
calculations based on building construction, climate, temperature rise you
must achieve. Not knowing your locations, I can't even guess what you may
need.

How well did the 175,000 Btu model do? That is quite a bit as many home
heaters are in the 100,000 Btu range. The ones you listed below are in the
30,000 Btu range. Based on my smaller shop with only partial insulation,
that is probably not enough if you get down to single digits.

They are also listed at about 40 amps or 9,000 watts. That is 9 kWh. In my
neighborhood, running one of them would cost $1.35 an hour and it would have
to run most of the time to maintain temperature. You could be looking at
$15 per day to operate it in very cold weather. If you ran two of them even
part of the time, $20 to $25 a day is not out of the question.

Do you have the service in the shop to handle that load in addition to the
tools?

skeezics (in [email protected]) said:

| On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:02:03 -0600, "Morris Dovey"
| <[email protected]> wrote:

<snip>

|| [1] Warm (less dense) air always rises above cooler (more dense)
|| air.
||
|| [2] The glazed area of a panel determines the amount of energy
|| available for capture.
||
|| [3] The goal is to get heat *out* of the panel and into the heated
|| space, *not* to maximize the temperature inside the panel. Remember
|| that heat and temperature are *not* synonyms.
||
|| [4] The panel joinery and glazing needs to be as close to airtight
|| as you can manage.
||
|| [5] For a given panel design, taller panels will generate higher
|| temperatures - and it /is/ possible to build a panel capable of
|| catastrophic self-destruction (so don't get _too_ greedy!)

<snip>

| after reading just a
| little bit i an concidering a panel about 4 feet wide and 6 to 8
| feet high and using 8" flex for the in and out pipeing. i have a
| couple of 6" computer mainframe fans that would assist in air flow.
| does this sound feasible?

Depends. Any kind of ducting will impede airflow - so it'd be
appropriate to ask if you really need ducting. If you use ducting you
don't really need and incorporate a fan to make up for having used it,
you're wasting power. How will this setup behave when the fan is
switched off or when the power fails?

I'd try for a design that uses principal [1] to obviate ducting and/or
fan. If you want a fan, put it near the ceiling and use it to blow
warm air toward the floor, so that the heat (from whatever source) is
better distributed. If you want to use ducting, use it with the fan to
draw the warm air from near the ceiling and blow it across the floor
(a concrete floor can work passably well as a thermal "flywheel" to
temper night temperature drops).

If you want to get fancy, control the ceiling fan with an air
conditioning thermostat near the ceiling.

I'd want the bottom of the panel above the level where termites and
carpenter ants might be inclined to make a meal of it. The top of the
panel discharge shouldn't be higher than your ceiling. Work backward
from there to determine the best panel height.

HTH

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

Brian Elfert (in [email protected]) said:

| "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> writes:
|
|| Well, OK - but have you priced sunshine lately? :-)
|
| Might work okay in Pheonix, but who needs heat in Pheonix?
|
| Here in Minnesota, I just heard we average around six sunny days in
| November. A lot of our other winter months aren't much better.
|
| My new shop will probably have natural gas heat even though
| equipment is somewhat expensive. I believe natural gas would have
| to at least double to equal electric. Electricity is likely to
| increase in cost as other energy sources cost more.

Interesting. I solar heated my shop in Minnesota for over ten years -
and during the winter months had to use 2x4 scraps to hold the door
open to let the heat _out_ of the shop - even when it was thirty below
and blowing outside. You might find it interesting that the shop was
an uninsulated 24'x32' concrete block building with an uninsulated
slab floor.

Of course, that was in the southern (sunny) part of the state. ;-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On 16 Nov 2005 08:16:31 -0800, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I've got the Fahrenheat version of that Dayton at the top of your list.
>My garashop is a little smaller than yours, about 18 x 19, but it's
>detached and uninsulated. I'm going to insulate it and tighten it up
>this winter. So far this unit has done very well here in south central
>Wisconsin. It can keep the inside at over 60 while it's 32 outside,
>which has been just fine for finishing up the latest project. I won't
>be leaving it on all night till I've got the insulation up, but I
>already know it will let me do rough work inside the shop when it's
>really cold outside. Then, when I've got the space down to a nice
>insulated 2500 cubic feet, I think it will keep everything above
>freezing and let me make sawdust all next winter. Barring the beginning
>of the next ice age, of course.
>
>I think that unit's going to be a little small for your setup, though,
>especially if you're going to heat the upper storage too. If you close
>up the lower part and place the heater well, then it'll probably be
>good for down to 10 degrees F. But then, I'm not you and I don't mind
>experimenting with your money. :-) All I can say is I'm satisfied with
>this unit for my own needs.

thanks that is what i was looking for. if that unit is ok for your
shop size then i guess i should look at the next size up. was looking
at one right in the middle at 24000 btu i think. i dont want to overdo
it but i dont want to underdo either! lol

skeez

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:02:03 -0600, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>skeezics (in [email protected]) said:
>
>| nope not kidding! i didnt realize it could be so cheaply done. even
>| if it were over 1000 bucks it would pay for itself over time and
>| eventually be free heat. free is my favorite number. lol btw...
>| thanks for the idea and the links. ive heard of solor but never
>| thought about it for this . doeh!!!!.
>
>For people with reasonable woodworking skills, solar panels are *not*
>a difficult undertaking. To get you started in the right direction,
>there are a few simple principles to keep in mind:
>
>[1] Warm (less dense) air always rises above cooler (more dense) air.
>
>[2] The glazed area of a panel determines the amount of energy
>available for capture.
>
>[3] The goal is to get heat *out* of the panel and into the heated
>space, *not* to maximize the temperature inside the panel. Remember
>that heat and temperature are *not* synonyms.
>
>[4] The panel joinery and glazing needs to be as close to airtight as
>you can manage.
>
>[5] For a given panel design, taller panels will generate higher
>temperatures - and it /is/ possible to build a panel capable of
>catastrophic self-destruction (so don't get _too_ greedy!)

great info. i think i can do this. certainly warming the shop wil not
be instantainious. how long does it take to get heat after a cold
night? i know this is a very general question but im unsure how to
pose it. i am thinking i should have a heater for the morning hours
till the sun gets up and the air has a chance to get moving. i usualy
get out ther at or before daylight so a warm up would be required. but
the solar sound good because i wont have to run the heater all day.
weekdays would be beter cause it would be afternoon before i could get
into the shop. after reading just a little bit i an concidering a
panel about 4 feet wide and 6 to 8 feet high and using 8" flex for the
in and out pipeing. i have a couple of 6" computer mainframe fans that
would assist in air flow. does this sound feasible?

skeez

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 18:32:52 -0500, [email protected] (J T)
wrote:

>Tue, Nov 15, 2005, 11:52pm (EST+5) [email protected] (skeezics) doth
>burble:
><snip> gas heat is just 1 more thing to run to town for in the middle of
>important shop time. <snip>
>
> Maybe for you. Me, I'd have at least one spare tank. Or, a
>couple of the big tanks, then when one ran out, call the gas guy to come
>out and fill it.
>
>
>
>JOAT
>Just pretend I'm not here. That's what I'm doing.

yeh i know all about the big tank fillup theory. i heat the house with
propane. the price has gone through the roof lately. thats why im
concidering solor heat for the shop. looks workable. if it works well
in the uninsulated shop there just may be another system for tghe
house in the near future. use the gas mans money for more wood and
tools! lol... im shocked that you aint doing this JOAT. BTW any of
those boat motors runnig yet? no???? well dont feel bad those rusty
old handsaws are still hangin round rusty. someday........

skeez

skeezics (in [email protected]) said:

| thats interesting. what might a solar system cost? got some links?

You gotta be kidding!

But just in case you're not:

You can build enough passive solar heating panels to heat a shop the
size of a two-car garage for less than $500 in materials and a
not-unreasonable amount of work. You'll need a table saw, router, some
clamps, and a screwdriver.

For links try http://www.google.com and lurk on
news:alt.solar.thermal - and if you get really stumped, try following
the link below and browse for ideas.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 03:11:35 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"skeezics" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> built the shop a year or so ago. 24 x 32 with full storage upstairs.
>> 12 x 12 pitch roof makes a nice storage area. heated last winter with
>> a 175000 btu kerosene heater and learned some lessons
>
>> i want something that will heat it up quick and
>> keep it above 45 degrees on cold days. the 300 dollar one says it will
>> heat up to 500 SF i got nearly 800 SF to heat. im not lookin to make
>> it toasty warm so this may work. here are some links to what i found
>> so far. any suggestions? or alternatives?
>
>How much heat do you need? The best way to find out is to do hte
>calculations based on building construction, climate, temperature rise you
>must achieve. Not knowing your locations, I can't even guess what you may
>need.
>
central N.C.

>How well did the 175,000 Btu model do? That is quite a bit as many home
>heaters are in the 100,000 Btu range. The ones you listed below are in the
>30,000 Btu range. Based on my smaller shop with only partial insulation,
>that is probably not enough if you get down to single digits.
>
we dont get that cold as often as more northern states and when its in
the low teens i wont be out there. lol...

>They are also listed at about 40 amps or 9,000 watts. That is 9 kWh. In my
>neighborhood, running one of them would cost $1.35 an hour and it would have
>to run most of the time to maintain temperature. You could be looking at
>$15 per day to operate it in very cold weather. If you ran two of them even
>part of the time, $20 to $25 a day is not out of the question.
>
i wont be heating unless i am out there. only a few hours a week
mostly.i closed off the upstairs last weekend so the louvered gables
are not a problem now. the shop is semi insulated. it has 1/2" foam
type sheathing and then hardiplan siding. the R value isnt all that
much but all in all the building is tight.

>Do you have the service in the shop to handle that load in addition to the
>tools?
>
>
got 200 amp service so power is no problem.
thanks.

skeez
>

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 20:29:53 -0600, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>skeezics (in [email protected]) said:
>
>| thats interesting. what might a solar system cost? got some links?
>
>You gotta be kidding!
>
>But just in case you're not:
>
>You can build enough passive solar heating panels to heat a shop the
>size of a two-car garage for less than $500 in materials and a
>not-unreasonable amount of work. You'll need a table saw, router, some
>clamps, and a screwdriver.
>
>For links try http://www.google.com and lurk on
>news:alt.solar.thermal - and if you get really stumped, try following
>the link below and browse for ideas.

nope not kidding! i didnt realize it could be so cheaply done. even if
it were over 1000 bucks it would pay for itself over time and
eventually be free heat. free is my favorite number. lol btw...
thanks for the idea and the links. ive heard of solor but never
thought about it for this . doeh!!!!.

skeez

skeezics (in [email protected]) said:

| nope not kidding! i didnt realize it could be so cheaply done. even
| if it were over 1000 bucks it would pay for itself over time and
| eventually be free heat. free is my favorite number. lol btw...
| thanks for the idea and the links. ive heard of solor but never
| thought about it for this . doeh!!!!.

For people with reasonable woodworking skills, solar panels are *not*
a difficult undertaking. To get you started in the right direction,
there are a few simple principles to keep in mind:

[1] Warm (less dense) air always rises above cooler (more dense) air.

[2] The glazed area of a panel determines the amount of energy
available for capture.

[3] The goal is to get heat *out* of the panel and into the heated
space, *not* to maximize the temperature inside the panel. Remember
that heat and temperature are *not* synonyms.

[4] The panel joinery and glazing needs to be as close to airtight as
you can manage.

[5] For a given panel design, taller panels will generate higher
temperatures - and it /is/ possible to build a panel capable of
catastrophic self-destruction (so don't get _too_ greedy!)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:54:16 -0600, "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Brian Elfert (in [email protected]) said:
>
>| "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> writes:
>|
>|| Well, OK - but have you priced sunshine lately? :-)
>|
>| Might work okay in Pheonix, but who needs heat in Pheonix?
>|
>| Here in Minnesota, I just heard we average around six sunny days in
>| November. A lot of our other winter months aren't much better.
>|
>| My new shop will probably have natural gas heat even though
>| equipment is somewhat expensive. I believe natural gas would have
>| to at least double to equal electric. Electricity is likely to
>| increase in cost as other energy sources cost more.
>
>Interesting. I solar heated my shop in Minnesota for over ten years -
>and during the winter months had to use 2x4 scraps to hold the door
>open to let the heat _out_ of the shop - even when it was thirty below
>and blowing outside. You might find it interesting that the shop was
>an uninsulated 24'x32' concrete block building with an uninsulated
>slab floor.
>
>Of course, that was in the southern (sunny) part of the state. ;-)

thats interesting. what might a solar system cost? got some links?

skeez

[email protected] (in
[email protected]) said:

| In my neck of the woods, propane, natural gas, and oil are
| increasing so much faster than electric that electric is now
| competitive, especially after you figure in the cost of buying and
| installing a gas or oil unit. For me, a system that's as safe and
| odor free as the electric wouldn't break even for some years. I
| don't like it and it goes against everything I 'm used to, but I've
| run the numbers and done the forecasting, and electric keeps
| winning for this little bitty shop. If there was more cubic
| footage, it'd be different.

Well, OK - but have you priced sunshine lately? :-)

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:21:10 -0000, Brian Elfert <[email protected]>
wrote:

>skeezics <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>built the shop a year or so ago. 24 x 32 with full storage upstairs.
>>12 x 12 pitch roof makes a nice storage area. heated last winter with
>>a 175000 btu kerosene heater and learned some lessons
>
>I am curious where you are located and how much it cost to build your
>shop? I am in the planning stages of a shop to be built next
>spring/summer of about the same size. I would like to include attic
>storage if possible, but I'm not sure I want to shingle a 12/12 pitch
>roof.
>
i had it built. central N.C. didnt have the time for such a large
project.

>I would insulate at the same time heat is installed. Propane is almost
>always cheaper than electric heat unless your electric is really, really
>cheap.
>
mine was 27000 without electric. i pulled the permit and did the
wiring myself.

>Your local supplier can provide you with a large above ground tank that
>should last a whole season. If you contact the local propane supplier and
>tell them you are thinking about electric over propane, often they will do
>things such as running the piping for free. I've heard of people
>sometimes getting a free propane heater.
>

they do that here but you have to agree to so much usage to get the
free stuff. on our home we have gas heat and the tank is free and so
was the hookup. i nearly SMP's at the last fillup!!!!!

skeez

[email protected] (in
[email protected]) said:

| I've priced it, but right now the sunshine outside my window is dull
| gray with white stuff going sideways. Not sure how much heat I'm
| gonna get outta that. :-)

It was like that here yesterday. Still, every time the shop air passed
through the collector it came out 9 degrees (F) warmer.

Typical sunny day temperature gain this time of year is 85-100F and
about 20F more at mid-winter. The output is noticably better than that
when the ground is snow-covered.

I like to brag that I heat my shop with a large unshielded fusion
reactor. :-D

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html