I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the way
through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will be 3/4
of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the fence? Do I
hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in position, or do I
drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the router bit into the
hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I get a true straight
clean slot this way, with no wobble?
Thanks for any and all answers!
Paul
On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 11:48:07 +0000, Leon wrote
(in article <Xhqwl.9989$%[email protected]>):
>
> "sam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> sam wrote:
>
>> Thanks for all the answers! I'm a little leary of lowering the board onto
>> the table with a spinning router. I have ten fingers and I want to keep
>> them! I think I will just drill the hole and experiment with scrap wood.
>> My problem is I want it to look like it came from a professional shop.
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>
>
> I would be fearful of starting up a router bit in an existing hole. If it
> touches any where when you start the router it is going to grab and slap the
> board. Better to have the bit spinning before it comes in contact with the
> board.
>
>
Agreed.
assuming a router bit of the correct width...
I'd lower the wood onto the spinning bit, some way into the length of the
slot - pressing firmly into the fence - and climb cut (move the piece to the
right) to the origin of the slot, then "properly" - right to left- for the
rest, against a stop block.
Frankly it would be easier with a hand-held router and a side fence.
You are absolutely right of course. I was merely advocating a climb cut
_just_ to get the bit completely vertical at the extreme end of the slot but
ONLY if the bit is the final slot width so it's cutting on both sides of the
slot at the same time, definitely not for widening the not_against_the_fence
side of a slot.
I do, however, bow to your deeper knowledge of slots and I agree that climb
cutting is generally a Very Bad Thing.
On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:15:02 +0000, Leon wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):
>
> "Bored Borg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>>
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>
>> assuming a router bit of the correct width...
>> I'd lower the wood onto the spinning bit, some way into the length of the
>> slot - pressing firmly into the fence - and climb cut (move the piece to
>> the
>> right) to the origin of the slot, then "properly" - right to left- for the
>> rest, against a stop block.
>>
>> Frankly it would be easier with a hand-held router and a side fence.
>>
>
> You don't want to do a climb cut moving the work from left to right. The
> bit will pull the work away from the fence. If you let one end of the work
> set on the table top against a stop and lower the other end onto the
> spinning bit you have good control.
>
> I have performed this procedure probably 1500 times. I used to make mouth
> blocks for Steve Knight. Each mouth block was made out of Ipe and had 2,
> 1.5" long parallel slots in blanks that were about 2" wide and 3.5" long and
> .375" thick I plunged the small piece of wood down on to the bit on the
> router table and against the fence. I did make a jig for hand held use but
> that took too much time and did not yield as accurate of results for me.
> Using a hand held resulted in having probably 30% more rejects than using
> the router table method.
>
> Each situation changes the method of attack.
>
>
Just picked up this thread again. I thought it was dead but it bit my ankles
when I was weeding stuff out.
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:47:24 +0100, Morris Dovey wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):
> Bored Borg wrote:
>
>> I do, however, bow to your deeper knowledge of slots and I agree that climb
>> cutting is generally a Very Bad Thing.
>
> That's a pretty broad brush you're using there (especially with the
> capitalization)!
>
> Climb cutting isn't a bad thing - not having adequate control of a power
> tool is the Very Bad Thing.
>
> All of the routed stuff in the photos at
>
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Bevel/
>
> was climb-cut, with both the workpieces /and/ the router adequately
> controlled - without any hint of a problem.
Hi Morris.
My broad brush was rather sweeping...
er.., I was particularly being general. :-)
I climb cut on most pieces, somewhere.
Often to stop end grain blowing out and if I'm going round a curve, freehand,
with a bearing I find that a final backwards nibble smooths out any
forward-cut roughness.
I'd be wary of whacking straight into a deep cut going back'ard though, just
as I'd be wary of starting a deep cut straight into the corner of a board and
going for'ard. As you say, it's all about control. If you think about how the
cutter is addressing the stock geometry everything should be reasonably
obvious and all you have to do then is factor in how the wood grain lies and
you're sorted.
I was replying to being told off because I advocated climb cutting a slot,
remember? ... and in the face of chastisement agreed that willy-nilly use of
the technique as THE general method is a Bad Thing . My whimsy probably
obscured communicative precision, damn you and your eagle-eyed powers of
observation !!!! :-)
Now I'm getting it in the neck from both sides. I never expected the....
Our threeeeee main weapons are:
-Loyal and unquestioning devotion to The Pope
-Surprise
-Routing so the leading edge of the bit pulls you into the work, not throws
you out of it is generally safer, particularly if you're taking off a lot of
stock in a pass and conversely, taking off very little stock lessons any
risk.
That's four, isn't it?
Our FOUR main weapons are:
-Loyal and unquestioning devotion to The Pope
-Surprise
-Routing so the leading edge of the bit pulls you into the work, not throws
you out of it is generally safer, particularly if you're taking off a lot of
stock in a pass.
-Taking off very little stock probably means you have better control of the
set-up so you can go in whatever direction gives the best finish.
-Never draw to an inside straight or top post a long reply to a short thread
in a newsgroup
Our FIVE main weapons are....
Oh Bugger!!
Love what you've done with the protractor, btw.
sam <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
> mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
>
> I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the
> way through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will
> be 3/4 of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the
> fence? Do I hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in
> position, or do I drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the
> router bit into the hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I
> get a true straight clean slot this way, with no wobble?
> Thanks for any and all answers!
> Paul
I'd probably use the second method, of making a hole then setting the
fence. However, if you need the groove to be exactly the same size the
entire width, you'll have to either make multiple passes with a smaller
bit or perform a plunge cut. Be extremely careful with plunge cuts, as
you cannot see the bit until it emerges from the board. (They're best
done on a hand-held router, but you've gotta use the tools you've got.)
Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
Yep, the MR can do the job and you are exactly right, with just a
little care it will always do a great job. I attributed the variance I
have ssen to bit flexing and maybe I was really just seeing some small
amount of variance in the whole tolerance chain. I think I do tend to
bull things through with power tools. I will get a MR this year I
hope. But I also hope to soon after that get a powermatic or some
other single end tenoner and a Maka or Centorino swing chisel
mortiser. Then I'll just push the button real hard if I am in a hurry.
Thx for the compliment.
On Mar 20, 2:29=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" wrote
>
>
>
>
>
> > I generally agree with your statements but inthe case of the
> > Multirouter and how it uses templates, the size accuracy of the tenon
> > is mostly assured if you use good technique. The position and angle
> > can be effected by the stock prep and it mightbe slightly off ceneter
> > if stock thickness varies from the thickness used for setup, etc.
>
> > The real "consistency" issue is related making cuts off the side of an
> > end mill type cutter. You have this long cutter cutting on edge for
> > more than an inch. It can flex. especially if you are doing long
> > tennons. It also can have issues at the shoulders with some chip out
> > or minor gouging, etc.
>
> > It's a great system, it's just a little finicky to get it working well
> > on tenons and takes some time to get used to it.
>
> > I've heard it can be finicky for wide dovetails and finger joints also
> > but I've only toyed with them for doing M&T.
>
> You know, I've been seeing the above online for years now, mostly from on=
e
> particular detractor who's become infamous on some forums for doing so, b=
ut
> he admits to not ever having, or using but momentarily, a M-R.
>
> AAMOF, I use mostly long 3/8 end mills by choice in mine, but have never =
had
> even a 1/4 end mill flex to any discernable degree when doing any task,
> although I admit it could do so if blunt force was used to bull through a
> cut ... but a router bit of that length would be far less likely to be
> lacking in the accuracy department, in my experience.
>
> Basically, it's a tool that is more than accurate enough for all woodwork=
ing
> tasks most woodworkers will ever put it through, and as with all accurate
> tools, a certain degree of delicacy should be exercised in the use thereo=
f
> to get the greatest benefit.
>
> One this is for certain ... it is an absolutely invaluable "shop producti=
on"
> tool for a serious, professional woodworker, and it is a production chair
> maker's dream!
>
> I've seen your work, I'm most impressed with the quality and your experti=
se,
> and would say that you, of all folks, deserve one yourself! =A0:)
>
> So, what are you waiting for?
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
If you use the correct bit you can plunge down to get started.
Set the fence with a pencil mark of where you wnat to start and a stop
block for the finish if you need real precise.
You will get a little bit of shake because the bit is cutting in two
directions. It would be nice to have some hold downs but a little
difficult when you are plunging, but make some sort of feather board,
springs of even just a second fence to help keep it from jumping.
a 5/16 slot should be able to cut in one pass in most woods pretty
easy but play with feed speed. Also, clogging can be an issue where
the chips don't evacuate but a full through slot should make this not
to problematic and strong down suction dust removal will be a big
help.
Another option is to place the piece on top of a sacrificial piece of
ply and construct a jig over the top with a few boards and do it free
hand. In this case I would take multiple succesivly deeper passes and
you can control super precise start and stop locations.
Or even just use a base guide on the router and do it free hand.
Lots o options
You will get a little shake because the bit is cutting in two
directions when it is in
On Mar 18, 9:29=A0pm, sam <[email protected]> wrote:
> I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
> mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
>
> I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the way
> through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will be =A03/=
4
> of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the fence? Do I
> hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in position, or do I
> drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the router bit into the
> hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I get a true straight
> clean slot this way, with no wobble?
> Thanks for any and all answers!
> Paul
Yes, super cool. I hope to have one soon. However, they only have an
8" throw so if you are doing a longer slot it will be a little less
perfect for the job. Even though they are dead accurate, unclamping
and moving the stock to continue a cut is never perfect. Probably more
than perfect enough though.
Interesting side note (to some): Many of the folks who I know that are
using this unit to do furniture are often (or exclusively) using it
like a domino with floating tenons when doing M&T. Even though it does
mortise and tenon, the tenons are more setup and less consistent. I
also see that most of these folks do not pin both sides of the joint,
so in my opinion, they are not building furniture that will last
forever. A true pinned M&T has a mechanical lock in addition to the
glue and the glue will fail someday.
On Mar 20, 5:58=A0am, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 7:20=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "sam" wrote:
> > > I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the
> > > way through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will
> > > be =A03/4 of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the
> > > fence? Do I hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in
> > > position, or do I drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit
> > > the router bit into the hole, bringing my fence up to the board?
> > > Will I get a true straight clean slot this way, with no wobble?
>
> > What you want to do is the functional equivalent of cutting a mortise
> > using a router and a straight bit.
>
> > IMHO, it is not possible to safely accomplish this operation using a
> > fixed base router, router table with a fence.
>
> > You need a plunge router and jigs that duplicate the functional
> > equivalent of cutting a mortise.
>
> > Do a Google for "mortise jig" to get and idea of an approach to
> > solving your problem safely.
>
> > Lew
>
> Better yet, look up "Multi-router" ala David Marks. Not only is this
> setup safe, accurate and easy - it's about the coolest router
> accessory I've ever seen. Might be a bit expensive, but it sure would
> be nice to have in the shop!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
sam wrote:
> sam wrote:
>> I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
>> mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
>>
>> I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the
>> way through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will
>> be 3/4 of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the
>> fence? Do I hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in
>> position, or do I drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the
>> router bit into the hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I
>> get a true straight clean slot this way, with no wobble?
>> Thanks for any and all answers!
>> Paul
> Well this topic has gone far beyond answering my question. I don't have
> the money or the expertise to do some of the things suggested. My router
> is just not strong enough to cut a 5/16 inch slot in Fir, let alone
> cherry. I guess I'll have to come up with another way of tensioning the
> warp on my looms. :( but thanks to all who posted.
Sam...
With deep cuts, it's sometimes preferable to make repeated passes - with
each pass removing a little more wood (perhaps 1/8"). It /can/ be done
with a not-so-powerful table-mounted router, but as Puckdropper first
mentioned, it's easier to exercise control with a hand-held plunge-based
router with some kind of fence/guide and end stops to ensure repeatability.
Before you change/compromise your design, think about getting a little
direct help from someone who already has the expertise and tools to do
the job easily and who'll be willing to let you watch and learn.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> It /can/ be done with a not-so-powerful table-mounted router, but as
>> Puckdropper first mentioned, it's easier to exercise control with a
>> hand-held plunge-based router with some kind of fence/guide and end stops
>> to ensure repeatability.
>
> Maybe for you. From personal experience, I disagree. I can make perfectly
> accurate, repeatable cuts on my router table. With the hand held, I suck.
> Hardly ever use it and will go to the table every time if I can.
>
> I'd make the slot in multiple passes getting to about 1/2" of the end. Once
> through, I'd set up a mark or stop and slowly do the two ends.
I'm working /really/ hard to not give you what I think of as a "Robatoy
response". :)
Next time you travel across Iowa on I-80, stop in at my shop for a good
cup of coffee and we'll cure that problem with the hand-held router. :-D
Then we'll cut the slot on one of the CNC machines and completely spoil
you for anything less than a (nearly silent) 5 hp spindle. ;-)
(O shucks - I did it anyway!)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Han wrote:
> Well, google maps says it's 1044 miles to you from here (07410), so maybe
> I'll wait a bit before coming over. Though I would really like to see
> your setup and your solar gadgets. Is there a train somewhere near?
<http://find.mapmuse.com/re1/map_brand_mm2.php?brandID=AMTRAK&init=42.0808,-93.5961,7&tlist=AMTRAK,>
Osceola, Iowa has the closest Amtrak station - and I'd be delighted to
meet you at the station, show off shop, solar, and a bit of Iowa, and
return you to the station.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
Bored Borg wrote:
> I do, however, bow to your deeper knowledge of slots and I agree that climb
> cutting is generally a Very Bad Thing.
That's a pretty broad brush you're using there (especially with the
capitalization)!
Climb cutting isn't a bad thing - not having adequate control of a power
tool is the Very Bad Thing.
All of the routed stuff in the photos at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Projects/Bevel/
was climb-cut, with both the workpieces /and/ the router adequately
controlled - without any hint of a problem.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On Mar 19, 7:20=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "sam" wrote:
> > I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the
> > way through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will
> > be =A03/4 of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the
> > fence? Do I hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in
> > position, or do I drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit
> > the router bit into the hole, bringing my fence up to the board?
> > Will I get a true straight clean slot this way, with no wobble?
>
> What you want to do is the functional equivalent of cutting a mortise
> using a router and a straight bit.
>
> IMHO, it is not possible to safely accomplish this operation using a
> fixed base router, router table with a fence.
>
> You need a plunge router and jigs that duplicate the functional
> equivalent of cutting a mortise.
>
> Do a Google for "mortise jig" to get and idea of an approach to
> solving your problem safely.
>
> Lew
Better yet, look up "Multi-router" ala David Marks. Not only is this
setup safe, accurate and easy - it's about the coolest router
accessory I've ever seen. Might be a bit expensive, but it sure would
be nice to have in the shop!
sam wrote:
> I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
> mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
>
> I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the way
> through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will be 3/4
> of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the fence? Do I
> hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in position, or do I
> drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the router bit into the
> hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I get a true straight
> clean slot this way, with no wobble?
> Thanks for any and all answers!
> Paul
Well this topic has gone far beyond answering my question. I don't have
the money or the expertise to do some of the things suggested. My router
is just not strong enough to cut a 5/16 inch slot in Fir, let alone
cherry. I guess I'll have to come up with another way of tensioning the
warp on my looms. :( but thanks to all who posted.
Paul
I generally agree with your statements but inthe case of the
Multirouter and how it uses templates, the size accuracy of the tenon
is mostly assured if you use good technique. The position and angle
can be effected by the stock prep and it mightbe slightly off ceneter
if stock thickness varies from the thickness used for setup, etc.
The real "consistency" issue is related making cuts off the side of an
end mill type cutter. You have this long cutter cutting on edge for
more than an inch. It can flex. especially if you are doing long
tennons. It also can have issues at the shoulders with some chip out
or minor gouging, etc.
It's a great system, it's just a little finicky to get it working well
on tenons and takes some time to get used to it.
I've heard it can be finicky for wide dovetails and finger joints also
but I've only toyed with them for doing M&T.
On Mar 20, 12:03=A0pm, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" wrote
>
> > Yes, super cool. I hope to have one soon. However, they only have an
> > 8" throw so if you are doing a longer slot it will be a little less
> > perfect for the job. Even though they are dead accurate, unclamping
> > and moving the stock to continue a cut is never perfect. Probably more
> > than perfect enough though.
>
> The biggest source or error in this case would be the accuracy of the
> dimensioning of the stock to begin with. IOW, with the M-R, the cut will =
be
> as accurate as using the most accurate of fences on any other type of too=
l
> ... for you would clamp the stock to the table, and move the table, which
> is, in effect, the "fence" in this type of operation.
>
> An added benefit, that is not usually available when passing the stock ov=
er
> the cutting device, instead of vice versa, is that clamping pressure to t=
he
> M-R's table can mitigate error in the flatness of the stock.
>
> Granted, as you say, we're talking a case of "perfect enough".
>
> > Interesting side note (to some): Many of the folks who I know that are
> > using this unit to do furniture are often (or exclusively) using it
> > like a domino with floating tenons when doing M&T. Even though it does
> > mortise and tenon, the tenons are more setup and less consistent. I
> > also see that most of these folks do not pin both sides of the joint,
> > so in my opinion, they are not building furniture that will last
> > forever. A true pinned M&T has a mechanical lock in addition to the
> > glue and the glue will fail someday.
>
> Yabbut, forever is a long time and the "pin" is also glued in, and, as yo=
u
> say, glue will fail someday ... and, it is arguable that the wood itself
> will not last "forever" in any event. :)
>
> It would be interesting to see some test results bearing out your
> contention. Like you, my gut feeling is that pinning would certainly add
> some mechanical strength to any joint, but how much, or whether it is
> necessary, is highly subjective.
>
> IME, it is not remotely necessary to pin a properly done "floating tenon"
> joint.
>
> AAMOF, in all the test results I've seen of the relative strengths of thi=
s
> type joint compared with various others, I've yet to see a test which
> "pinned" the floating tenon as one of its parameters.
>
> What is interesting in these tests is that the "rounded" floating tenons
> performed slightly better than squared ones.
>
> (Fine Woodworking, Nov 2006)
>
> And, while I've been known to do it myself, I would certainly NOT want to
> leave the impression with anyone that pinning their properly done floatin=
g
> tenon joinery is necessary to it's practical longevity.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> It /can/ be done with a not-so-powerful table-mounted router, but as
>> Puckdropper first mentioned, it's easier to exercise control with a
>> hand-held plunge-based router with some kind of fence/guide and end stops
>> to ensure repeatability.
>
> Maybe for you. From personal experience, I disagree. I can make perfectly
> accurate, repeatable cuts on my router table. With the hand held, I suck.
> Hardly ever use it and will go to the table every time if I can.
>
> I'd make the slot in multiple passes getting to about 1/2" of the end. Once
> through, I'd set up a mark or stop and slowly do the two ends.
>
>
>>I'd make the slot in multiple passes getting to about 1/2" of the
end. Once
through, I'd set up a mark or stop and slowly do the two ends.
You know I never thought of that! When I drop the wood on top of the
bit, when it goes through(before I begin the slot)I have tear out. Doing
it in passes, would enable be to reach the surface slowly, hopefully
eliminating the tear-out.
"Bored Borg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You are absolutely right of course. I was merely advocating a climb cut
> _just_ to get the bit completely vertical at the extreme end of the slot
> but
> ONLY if the bit is the final slot width so it's cutting on both sides of
> the
> slot at the same time, definitely not for widening the
> not_against_the_fence
> side of a slot.
Your thinking makes a good case however if the bit is the final width of the
slot the bit is really only cutting in "1" place in the slot. It is not
cutting on eigher the fence or far side of the slot, it is cutting on the
leading side of the bit back to tangent with either the sides of the slot,
It is the direction of rotation on that leading side of the bit that will
determine which way the work will be pulled by the bit. If pushing the
stock from right to left the leading edge of the bit is on the right end of
the slot, turning away from you towards the fence. If you are feeding
left to right the leading side of the bit is on the left end of the slot,
turning towards you and away from the fence.
>
> I do, however, bow to your deeper knowledge of slots and I agree that
> climb
> cutting is generally a Very Bad Thing.
Don't bow to me, I am the one that mentioned in an earlier post that I
probably cut 1500 of these type slots in Ipe. Just last week when making a
DP fence with a similar slot I forgot that you absolutely need to as close
to the extreme left end of the slot as possible. I plunged the slot
starting it near where I wanted it to begin and went left to right 1/2" to
establish that end of the slot. The bit immediately pulled the work away
from the router table fence a bit and I ended up with a slight bit of wobble
in the slot.
When I was cutting the many slots in Ipe I was always using stops for both
ends of the work. "Beginning against the right end stop" and pushing
towards the left end stop insured that I did not go in both directions to
make the slot.
"sam" wrote:
> I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the
> way through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will
> be 3/4 of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the
> fence? Do I hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in
> position, or do I drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit
> the router bit into the hole, bringing my fence up to the board?
> Will I get a true straight clean slot this way, with no wobble?
What you want to do is the functional equivalent of cutting a mortise
using a router and a straight bit.
IMHO, it is not possible to safely accomplish this operation using a
fixed base router, router table with a fence.
You need a plunge router and jigs that duplicate the functional
equivalent of cutting a mortise.
Do a Google for "mortise jig" to get and idea of an approach to
solving your problem safely.
Lew
"SonomaProducts.com" wrote
> Yes, super cool. I hope to have one soon. However, they only have an
> 8" throw so if you are doing a longer slot it will be a little less
> perfect for the job. Even though they are dead accurate, unclamping
> and moving the stock to continue a cut is never perfect. Probably more
> than perfect enough though.
The biggest source or error in this case would be the accuracy of the
dimensioning of the stock to begin with. IOW, with the M-R, the cut will be
as accurate as using the most accurate of fences on any other type of tool
... for you would clamp the stock to the table, and move the table, which
is, in effect, the "fence" in this type of operation.
An added benefit, that is not usually available when passing the stock over
the cutting device, instead of vice versa, is that clamping pressure to the
M-R's table can mitigate error in the flatness of the stock.
Granted, as you say, we're talking a case of "perfect enough".
> Interesting side note (to some): Many of the folks who I know that are
> using this unit to do furniture are often (or exclusively) using it
> like a domino with floating tenons when doing M&T. Even though it does
> mortise and tenon, the tenons are more setup and less consistent. I
> also see that most of these folks do not pin both sides of the joint,
> so in my opinion, they are not building furniture that will last
> forever. A true pinned M&T has a mechanical lock in addition to the
> glue and the glue will fail someday.
Yabbut, forever is a long time and the "pin" is also glued in, and, as you
say, glue will fail someday ... and, it is arguable that the wood itself
will not last "forever" in any event. :)
It would be interesting to see some test results bearing out your
contention. Like you, my gut feeling is that pinning would certainly add
some mechanical strength to any joint, but how much, or whether it is
necessary, is highly subjective.
IME, it is not remotely necessary to pin a properly done "floating tenon"
joint.
AAMOF, in all the test results I've seen of the relative strengths of this
type joint compared with various others, I've yet to see a test which
"pinned" the floating tenon as one of its parameters.
What is interesting in these tests is that the "rounded" floating tenons
performed slightly better than squared ones.
(Fine Woodworking, Nov 2006)
And, while I've been known to do it myself, I would certainly NOT want to
leave the impression with anyone that pinning their properly done floating
tenon joinery is necessary to it's practical longevity.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Bored Borg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>
> Agreed.
>
>
> assuming a router bit of the correct width...
> I'd lower the wood onto the spinning bit, some way into the length of the
> slot - pressing firmly into the fence - and climb cut (move the piece to
> the
> right) to the origin of the slot, then "properly" - right to left- for the
> rest, against a stop block.
>
> Frankly it would be easier with a hand-held router and a side fence.
>
You don't want to do a climb cut moving the work from left to right. The
bit will pull the work away from the fence. If you let one end of the work
set on the table top against a stop and lower the other end onto the
spinning bit you have good control.
I have performed this procedure probably 1500 times. I used to make mouth
blocks for Steve Knight. Each mouth block was made out of Ipe and had 2,
1.5" long parallel slots in blanks that were about 2" wide and 3.5" long and
.375" thick I plunged the small piece of wood down on to the bit on the
router table and against the fence. I did make a jig for hand held use but
that took too much time and did not yield as accurate of results for me.
Using a hand held resulted in having probably 30% more rejects than using
the router table method.
Each situation changes the method of attack.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> First, the key is the guide. By "guide" I don't think he's talking about
> one of those crappy little fence thingies that come with some routers.
> Make up a carrier that rides on both edges of the board or a template that
> clamps to the board and you should get cuts as precise at the router
> table.
My handheld is a DW 621. I did replace the base with one from Pat Warner
and it helped. I made a cutting board and wanted a groove around it so I
made a frame as a guide. Three straight out of four sides is getting
better. I probably should take more time to practice.
sam wrote:
> I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
> mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
>
> I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the way
> through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will be 3/4
> of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the fence? Do I
> hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in position, or do I
> drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the router bit into the
> hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I get a true straight
> clean slot this way, with no wobble?
> Thanks for any and all answers!
> Paul
I have a pic of my set up at http://www.handleys.us/router.jpg
Thanks,
Paul
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Next time you travel across Iowa on I-80, stop in at my shop for a good
> cup of coffee and we'll cure that problem with the hand-held router. :-D
I may take you up on that. I do want to drive out that way some day.
>
> Then we'll cut the slot on one of the CNC machines and completely spoil
> you for anything less than a (nearly silent) 5 hp spindle. ;-)
>
> (O shucks - I did it anyway!)
And I bet you don't even feel bad about it :)
sam wrote:
> I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
> mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
>
> I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the way
> through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will be 3/4
> of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the fence? Do I
> hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in position, or do I
> drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the router bit into the
> hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I get a true straight
> clean slot this way, with no wobble?
> Thanks for any and all answers!
> Paul
Thanks for all the answers! I'm a little leary of lowering the board
onto the table with a spinning router. I have ten fingers and I want to
keep them! I think I will just drill the hole and experiment with scrap
wood. My problem is I want it to look like it came from a professional shop.
Thanks,
Paul
"sam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> sam wrote:
> Thanks for all the answers! I'm a little leary of lowering the board onto
> the table with a spinning router. I have ten fingers and I want to keep
> them! I think I will just drill the hole and experiment with scrap wood.
> My problem is I want it to look like it came from a professional shop.
> Thanks,
> Paul
I would be fearful of starting up a router bit in an existing hole. If it
touches any where when you start the router it is going to grab and slap the
board. Better to have the bit spinning before it comes in contact with the
board.
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> It /can/ be done with a not-so-powerful table-mounted router, but
>>> as
>>> Puckdropper first mentioned, it's easier to exercise control with a
>>> hand-held plunge-based router with some kind of fence/guide and end
>>> stops to ensure repeatability.
>>
>> Maybe for you. From personal experience, I disagree. I can make
>> perfectly accurate, repeatable cuts on my router table. With the
>> hand held, I suck. Hardly ever use it and will go to the table every
>> time if I can.
>>
>> I'd make the slot in multiple passes getting to about 1/2" of the
>> end. Once through, I'd set up a mark or stop and slowly do the two
>> ends.
>
> I'm working /really/ hard to not give you what I think of as a
> "Robatoy response". :)
>
> Next time you travel across Iowa on I-80, stop in at my shop for a
> good cup of coffee and we'll cure that problem with the hand-held
> router. :-D
>
> Then we'll cut the slot on one of the CNC machines and completely
> spoil you for anything less than a (nearly silent) 5 hp spindle. ;-)
>
> (O shucks - I did it anyway!)
>
Well, google maps says it's 1044 miles to you from here (07410), so maybe
I'll wait a bit before coming over. Though I would really like to see
your setup and your solar gadgets. Is there a train somewhere near?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Han wrote:
>
>> Well, google maps says it's 1044 miles to you from here (07410), so
>> maybe I'll wait a bit before coming over. Though I would really like
>> to see your setup and your solar gadgets. Is there a train somewhere
>> near?
>
> <http://find.mapmuse.com/re1/map_brand_mm2.php?brandID=AMTRAK&init=42.0
> 808,-93.5961,7&tlist=AMTRAK,>
>
> Osceola, Iowa has the closest Amtrak station - and I'd be delighted to
> meet you at the station, show off shop, solar, and a bit of Iowa, and
> return you to the station.
I'll keep that in mind, Morris! Thank you!
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:4d932693-6899-4400-b68c-61042979970b@e38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Better yet, look up "Multi-router" ala David Marks. Not only is this
setup safe, accurate and easy - it's about the coolest router
accessory I've ever seen. Might be a bit expensive, but it sure would
be nice to have in the shop!
The Multirouter being a $3,000.00 router accessory it would be cheaper for
the OP to simply pay a pro to do the "slot".
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Yep, the MR can do the job and you are exactly right, with just a
>> little care it will always do a great job. I attributed the variance I
>
> Got a link to this router?
>
>
Oddly named, it is not a router but a terrific accessory to attach your
router to.
http://www.jdstools.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=12
"sam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
>mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
>
> I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the way
> through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will be 3/4
> of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the fence? Do I
> hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in position, or do I
> drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the router bit into the
> hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I get a true straight clean
> slot this way, with no wobble?
> Thanks for any and all answers!
> Paul
Your drawing does not "for sure" indicate whether you are using a router
table and fence or a router with a fence.
I'll assume you are using a router table. I did virtually the same thing on
the drill press table fence that I posted on a.b.p.w. If you pre drill a
hole to begin the slot you literally have to be dead on accurate. I don't
recommend doing it this way, it is an unnecessary step.
Start with a shallow cut and begin the cut as close to the far left end of
the cut as possible. Basically you only want to feed the stock from right
to left with the stock being between you and the fence. This direction will
allow the spinning router bit to keep the stock pulled up against the fence.
Going in the opposite direction will cause the bit to pull the stock away
from the fence.
To start the cut each time rest the tail end of the board on the table and
hover the end to be cut above the bit and against the fence. With the tail
end setting on the table it is easier to keep the board surface parallel to
the table top. Slowly pivot the stock down on to the router bit until it
rests on the table and then slowly feed the stock the required distance.
Raise the bit a bit more and repeat until the bit goes all the way through
the wood.
On Mar 19, 1:35=A0am, sam <[email protected]> wrote:
> sam wrote:
> > I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
> > mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
>
> > I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the way
> > through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will be =A0=
3/4
> > of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the fence? Do I
> > hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in position, or do =
I
> > drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the router bit into the
> > hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I get a true straight
> > clean slot this way, with no wobble?
> > Thanks for any and all answers!
> > Paul
>
> Thanks for all the answers! I'm a little leary of lowering the board
> onto the table with a spinning router. I have ten fingers and I want to
> keep them! I think I will just drill the hole and experiment with scrap
> wood. My problem is I want it to look like it came from a professional sh=
op.
> Thanks,
> Paul
Are you trying to make a stopped slot - where the slot does not come
all the way to the edges of the board? I'm not clear from your
description - it almost sounds like you're just trying to figure out
how to set the fence and take into consideration the width of the
cutter. If that's the case, there is no need to do a plunge cut, just
add 1/2 the bit diameter to your 3/4 inch center line and you should
have it.
Like I said though, I might not be clear on what you are trying to
accomplish...
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Yep, the MR can do the job and you are exactly right, with just a
> little care it will always do a great job. I attributed the variance I
Got a link to this router?
I just did this yesterday on some mortise holes. I used stops at each
end of the fence, and lowered the board on the spinning bit, with one
end of the board resting on the table. Used a feather board to hold
the board against the fence.
BUT... I used some scraps first to 1st: set the exact depth of the
cutter, 2nd: set the distance from the fence, and 3rd-17th! to set
both stops. When all was perfect, I proceded on the actual pieces.
Oh, yes, keep yer fingers well clear of that bit!!!
Hope this helps.....
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Oddly named, it is not a router but a terrific accessory to attach your
> router to.
>
> http://www.jdstools.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=12
Well, that explains the cost that people were talking about. I searched for
M-R Router not knowing that it referred to Multi-Router and came up with
several thousand Mr. Router links. I wonder how it compares with the
WoodRat?
In my opinion, the Woodrat and Leigh FMT are both fine pieces of
equipment but one step down towards the home builder. The Multi-Router
is more towards the commercial side. I think the biggest advantages
are both the flexibility to do more types of parts and the speed at
which you can run parts through the system. With the Multi-router,
once you have a setup and if you use the air clamps it is pretty high
production. The Leign and Woodrat are not as robust of clamping
systems and take more work to get the parts clamped in position.
Of course a full production shop will have dedicated mortiser,
tenoner, and dovetailers. The MR is really great for the one-off or
short run custom funriture builder.
The Woodworkers supply guys have a Woodtek version of the MR called
the matchmaker. Haven't heard much about it but saw it at AWFS. Looks
pretrty similar. I think it uses plastic templates which might be less
expensive "maybe". Took forever to find on their website. Had to find
exact name elsewhere. http://woodworker.com/ search matchmaker.
On Mar 22, 9:14=A0am, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Oddly named, it is not a router but a terrific accessory to attach your
> > router to.
>
> >http://www.jdstools.com/index.asp?PageAction=3DCustom&ID=3D12
>
> Well, that explains the cost that people were talking about. I searched f=
or
> M-R Router not knowing that it referred to Multi-Router and came up with
> several thousand Mr. Router links. I wonder how it compares with the
> WoodRat?
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Oddly named, it is not a router but a terrific accessory to attach your
>> router to.
>>
>> http://www.jdstools.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=12
>
> Well, that explains the cost that people were talking about. I searched
> for
> M-R Router not knowing that it referred to Multi-Router and came up with
> several thousand Mr. Router links. I wonder how it compares with the
> WoodRat?
>
>
I cannot say however Swingman bought one a few years ago and used it
immediately to build several round backed chairs. He used a jig and the MR
to cut several slots in the curved upper back and lower back sections to
receive and hold the long back slats. The tool is very well made, heavy
duty, and operates smoothly. I would compare it in build quality and
tolerances to a quality Cabinet saw or my HD Laguna band saw. You are
getting what you pay for on this tool. It will easily last a life time.
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> It /can/ be done with a not-so-powerful table-mounted router, but as
>> Puckdropper first mentioned, it's easier to exercise control with a
>> hand-held plunge-based router with some kind of fence/guide and end
>> stops to ensure repeatability.
>
> Maybe for you. From personal experience, I disagree. I can make
> perfectly accurate, repeatable cuts on my router table. With the
> hand held, I suck. Hardly ever use it and will go to the table every
> time if I can.
> I'd make the slot in multiple passes getting to about 1/2" of the
> end. Once through, I'd set up a mark or stop and slowly do the two
> ends.
First, the key is the guide. By "guide" I don't think he's talking about
one of those crappy little fence thingies that come with some routers. Make
up a carrier that rides on both edges of the board or a template that clamps
to the board and you should get cuts as precise at the router table.
If your router won't cut 5/16 by the way, I'd find out what was wrong with
it--that's a little over 1/4 and a Bosch Colt or a Rotozip doesn't have any
trouble with that. If it's a through cut though you may want to make
multiple passes.
On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:29:15 -0400, sam <[email protected]> wrote:
>I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a router is
>mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
>
>I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all the way
>through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will be 3/4
>of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the fence? Do I
>hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in position, or do I
>drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the router bit into the
>hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I get a true straight
>clean slot this way, with no wobble?
>Thanks for any and all answers!
>Paul
I understand you said router table, but my first choice for routing
this operation, work size permitting, would be an edge guided plunge
router.
But, going with the router table, I think either way would work, but
unless you predrill, be sure the router bit is one suitable for
plunging - has a cutting edge that extends completely across the end
of the bit.
If the size of the work permits, I'd recommend stop blocks positioned
to limit the movement of the work so that the ends of the slot are
determined by the stop blocks.
If there is no router lift installed on your table, I think I'd go
with the predrilled hole, position the work, then position the fence,
the turn on the router. If you do have a router lift, position the
fence 3/4" from the edge of the work, position the work against the
fence, and raise the bit through the work.
My last choice would be to lower the work onto a spinning bit and then
only if stop blocks can be used to locate and restrain the work. I've
done it, but have never been comfortable with that technique.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> It /can/ be done with a not-so-powerful table-mounted router, but as
> Puckdropper first mentioned, it's easier to exercise control with a
> hand-held plunge-based router with some kind of fence/guide and end stops
> to ensure repeatability.
Maybe for you. From personal experience, I disagree. I can make perfectly
accurate, repeatable cuts on my router table. With the hand held, I suck.
Hardly ever use it and will go to the table every time if I can.
I'd make the slot in multiple passes getting to about 1/2" of the end. Once
through, I'd set up a mark or stop and slowly do the two ends.
"sam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:4m%[email protected]...
: sam wrote:
: > I know this is going to sound stupid, but my knowledge of a
router is
: > mostly limited to putting a fancy edge on plaques.
: >
: > I want to take a 30" length of 4" wide board and put a slot all
the way
: > through the board about 4" long. the centerline of the slot will
be 3/4
: > of and inch from the edge of the board. Where do I put the fence?
Do I
: > hold the board above the router and slowly lower it in position,
or do I
: > drill my 5/16 hole first into the board and fit the router bit
into the
: > hole, bringing my fence up to the board? Will I get a true
straight
: > clean slot this way, with no wobble?
: > Thanks for any and all answers!
: > Paul
: Well this topic has gone far beyond answering my question. I don't
have
: the money or the expertise to do some of the things suggested. My
router
: is just not strong enough to cut a 5/16 inch slot in Fir, let alone
: cherry. I guess I'll have to come up with another way of tensioning
the
: warp on my looms. :( but thanks to all who posted.
: Paul
Why use a router table at all for this??
Attach your edge guide to the router, and set it so the edge is 3/4in
from the centerline of the collet.
Clamp stop blocks to your piece at a distance equal to half the width
of you're routers base from each end of the slot you want to make.
Install you're 5/16th bit, spiral flute is best for this type of
work, and set it so it's just above the boards surface.
Put the router on the board, with the edge guide tight against the
board, and slide it back and forth. Eyeball to verify the stop blocks
are stopping the bit at the correct point. Adjust if needed.
Assuming you don't have a plunge router:
Set the bit for a 1/8in cut, bring the edge guide against the board
with the bit slightly above the surface.
Turn the router on, lower the bit into the board and make your first
pass.
Turn router off, adjust for a slightly deeper cut, and make a second
pass.
Repeat until you have a slot.
Tedious, but not difficult. A plunge router speeds things up a bit.
Len
"SonomaProducts.com" wrote
> I generally agree with your statements but inthe case of the
> Multirouter and how it uses templates, the size accuracy of the tenon
> is mostly assured if you use good technique. The position and angle
> can be effected by the stock prep and it mightbe slightly off ceneter
> if stock thickness varies from the thickness used for setup, etc.
>
> The real "consistency" issue is related making cuts off the side of an
> end mill type cutter. You have this long cutter cutting on edge for
> more than an inch. It can flex. especially if you are doing long
> tennons. It also can have issues at the shoulders with some chip out
> or minor gouging, etc.
>
> It's a great system, it's just a little finicky to get it working well
> on tenons and takes some time to get used to it.
>
> I've heard it can be finicky for wide dovetails and finger joints also
> but I've only toyed with them for doing M&T.
You know, I've been seeing the above online for years now, mostly from one
particular detractor who's become infamous on some forums for doing so, but
he admits to not ever having, or using but momentarily, a M-R.
AAMOF, I use mostly long 3/8 end mills by choice in mine, but have never had
even a 1/4 end mill flex to any discernable degree when doing any task,
although I admit it could do so if blunt force was used to bull through a
cut ... but a router bit of that length would be far less likely to be
lacking in the accuracy department, in my experience.
Basically, it's a tool that is more than accurate enough for all woodworking
tasks most woodworkers will ever put it through, and as with all accurate
tools, a certain degree of delicacy should be exercised in the use thereof
to get the greatest benefit.
One this is for certain ... it is an absolutely invaluable "shop production"
tool for a serious, professional woodworker, and it is a production chair
maker's dream!
I've seen your work, I'm most impressed with the quality and your expertise,
and would say that you, of all folks, deserve one yourself! :)
So, what are you waiting for?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)