The following email was just sent around my company notifying of the
loss of a loved one. I work in a fairly large company and don't know
the individuals involved, the ages, or the details. I'm relaying it
because I think most of us would not have considered drilling a
potentially fatal activity.
"<name witheld>'s son, Ryan, passed away this week. Ryan was at home
building a crate or box to house an injured animal, drilling holes in
the lid when a piece of material broke off and impaled into his heart."
As a woodworker, my curiosity up to know the details. But there's no way
I'm asking, so don't ask me too.
-Jim Vidler
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:32:09 GMT, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
>I'm arguably the most dangerous tool in my shop. As long as I'm not in
>there the tools are all harmless.
>
>Max D.
>
good point, Max...
"saws don't maim people, people maim people"?
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
loutent wrote:
> I think the band saw is very dangerous too - just because
> it seems so "harmless" (in some ways).
It also has a relatively small table compared to most table saws.
With many typical table saws, you hav eot reach a bit to get your
hand to the blade.
That's feature the bandsaw shares with the drill press.
Supposedly the most commonly reported injury with a RAS is the
amputation of the left thumb by a person operating the saw with
his right hand. I was taught to operate a RAS with my left hand,
using my right to steady the workpiece. That way to put my
hand in the path of the blade I'd have to reach across my
body. It also means that my entire body is to the right of
the blade with no part of my body inline with the blade.
That, in turn, helps to prevent what is supposed to be the
second most common RAS injury, dislocation of the shoulder
when the saw kicks back. 'Kickback' in the case of RAS is
kicking out toward the user.
Using the RAS left-handed sounded silly and awkward at first.
It's downright unnatural. It's not the way Nahrm uses his.
But after making one cut that way I was convinced it was the
right way.
--
FF
"B a r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Has anyone seen "American Woodworker's" new idea that uses a clothespin
> to hold your cultist to the motor of a miter saw?
I didn't know David Koresh was a dorker.
(sorry)
I think the band saw is very dangerous too - just because
it seems so "harmless" (in some ways).
Every time I fire it up, I hook up the shop vac to be
sure I hear something through my ear protection.
The saw looks almost harmless when running IMHO.
Then I think of a post here a few months ago where
someone shut off his bandsaw and simply brushed
off some sawdust while the blade was still in motion-
with a terrible result...
I want to thank him for that mental image.
I also think that a woodworkers wort enemy in this
regard is fatigue. The worst things happen toward the
end of a shop day (however long that may be for you).
If you're lucky it's just a bad miter or something like
that.
Lou
In article <[email protected]>, Jim <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Last survey I saw indicated the bandsaw was the leading stationary power
> tool involved in workshop injuries. I think bandsaws are so quiet, compared
> to most of the other shop tools, that we become a bit careless. I can't tell
> you how many times I have almost pushed my thumb into the blade. Thankfully,
> I have always caught myself in time.
>
> Jim Ray, President
> McFeely's Square Drive Screws
> www.mcfeelys.com
>
> "Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
> > > the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
> > > bastard.
> >
> > The dangers of working with any power tool is axiomatic. However, IIRC,
> the
> > tablesaw has the highest number of accidents. I am not counting the
> > numerous less injurious cutting tools like chisels, knives and blades.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > http://www.usenet.com
>
>
"Jim" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Last survey I saw indicated the bandsaw was the leading stationary power
> tool involved in workshop injuries. I think bandsaws are so quiet,
compared
> to most of the other shop tools, that we become a bit careless. I can't
tell
> you how many times I have almost pushed my thumb into the blade.
Thankfully,
> I have always caught myself in time.
>
but the TS will suck you in & spit you out.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
> the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
> bastard.
The dangers of working with any power tool is axiomatic. However, IIRC, the
tablesaw has the highest number of accidents. I am not counting the
numerous less injurious cutting tools like chisels, knives and blades.
Dave
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com
On 31 Mar 2005 10:46:44 -0800, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
>the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
>bastard.
My personal vote is for hand chisels and utility knives. I've never
hurt myself with a power tool, but I've got a whole pile of scars from
neander tools. A properly sharpened chisel will hit bone before you
even know you slipped. (I've got a fingertip on my left hand that is
still aching like mad after almost a month)
They're all dangerous- it just depends on who you are, and what you're
doing.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
Mark wrote:
> I don't have a RAS, but the router is the most dangerous in my shop followed
> by the chop saw.
> Mark
>
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
>>the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
>>bastard.
Could we MAYBE provide even some anectdotal information as to WHY XXXXX
or XXXXX is the most dangerous?
The upholstery hammer is the most dangerous thing in a shop if that
happens to be the only tool you have. Sheesh!
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 18:11:53 GMT, the inscrutable Unquestionably
Confused <[email protected]> spake:
>on 4/1/2005 8:41 AM Andy Dingley said the following:
>> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:32:09 GMT, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>As long as I'm not in there the tools are all harmless.
>>
>> One of my shelves committed seppukku last week and took out the shop radio. I was asleep at the time.
>
>Marking knife or pull saw?
Most likely using one o the two following styles:
The Suzuki School of Seppuku by Dozuki
or
The Mata Hari Hara-Kiri School of Suicide
(say those 3 times really fast)
=========================================================
The Titanic. The Hindenburg. + http://www.diversify.com
The Clintons. + Website & Graphic Design
=========================================================
I do not own an RAS and am curious to know what makes them unusually
dangerous?
Seriously -- I competely believe it -- if you could just offer some
discussion?
Dave
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:30:41 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> The dangers of working with any power tool is axiomatic. However, IIRC,
>> the tablesaw has the highest number of accidents. I am not counting the
>> numerous less injurious cutting tools like chisels, knives and blades.
>
>
>Probably because TS users out number RAS users many times over. I'd bet
>that the TS accident ratio is far below that of the RAS.
>
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> People have cut fingers and hands off because they held the work with one
> hand and pulled the saw with the other hand, right across their own hand.
> This also happens with miter saws. It is possible to watch the blade moving
> along the cut mark and not realize their hand is in the way.
Has anyone seen "American Woodworker's" new idea that uses a clothespin
to hold your cultist to the motor of a miter saw?
THIS is scary:
"http://www.rd.com/americanwoodworker/article.do?siteId=2222&categoryId=7008&contentId=680"
Nothing like giving the operator something else to look at while cutting!
Barry
"Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The dangers of working with any power tool is axiomatic. However, IIRC,
> the tablesaw has the highest number of accidents. I am not counting the
> numerous less injurious cutting tools like chisels, knives and blades.
Probably because TS users out number RAS users many times over. I'd bet
that the TS accident ratio is far below that of the RAS.
Jerry S. wrote:
> "B a r r y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Has anyone seen "American Woodworker's" new idea that uses a clothespin
>>to hold your cultist to the motor of a miter saw?
>
>
> I didn't know David Koresh was a dorker.
>
> (sorry)
>
I did not see that he was being specific...
We have fewer cultists here -- so I will give the idea a try. The
thought of some of the local cultists spinning on a miter saw motor just
brings a smile to my face. ...Especially when I think about where I
could attach the clothespin(s).
--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
> the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
> bastard.
>
Accross the whole engineering/woodworking sphere in the Uk the drill
press has the most injury incidents. Having had one throw a pound of
cast iron at me, that was clamped, I can well believe it....
Niel.
"DaveH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I do not own an RAS and am curious to know what makes them unusually
> dangerous?
> Seriously -- I competely believe it -- if you could just offer some
> discussion?
> Dave
People have cut fingers and hands off because they held the work with one
hand and pulled the saw with the other hand, right across their own hand.
This also happens with miter saws. It is possible to watch the blade moving
along the cut mark and not realize their hand is in the way. With a miter
saw, it is good practice to bring the blade down to the work to see what it
is going to hit before you pull the trigger.
on 4/1/2005 8:41 AM Andy Dingley said the following:
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:32:09 GMT, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>As long as I'm not in there the tools are all harmless.
>
>
> One of my shelves committed seppukku last week and took out the shop radio. I was asleep at the time.
Marking knife or pull saw?
I seem to remember reading in the "Letters" section of FWW a long time ago a
note from a hand surgeon who was also a woodworker. He stated that the
WORST hand injuries from woodworking resulted from:
1. Ripping on a RAS;
2. Ripping grooves w/ dado blades on TS.
Both situations are set up so the operator is pushing directly into the
blade, against considerable resistance. Any slip off the workpiece and
hands plow into blades and digits fly.
At my work, our major client, and hence us too, have implemented a "Loss
Prevention System" (LPS). One of the tenets is called a "safe performance
self assessment" (SPSA). The SPSA basically is this: before EVERY new job
element (i.e. after you set up a new cut, but before you reach for the "on"
switch to rip that board), stop for a few seconds and ask yourself "What can
go wrong with this set-up?" Then, change your work practice to reduce the
risk.
It works for me.
-jbb
"Jim Vidler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The following email was just sent around my company notifying of the loss
> of a loved one. I work in a fairly large company and don't know the
> individuals involved, the ages, or the details. I'm relaying it because I
> think most of us would not have considered drilling a potentially fatal
> activity.
>
> "<name witheld>'s son, Ryan, passed away this week. Ryan was at home
> building a crate or box to house an injured animal, drilling holes in the
> lid when a piece of material broke off and impaled into his heart."
>
> As a woodworker, my curiosity up to know the details. But there's no way
> I'm asking, so don't ask me too.
>
> -Jim Vidler
I don't have a RAS, but the router is the most dangerous in my shop followed
by the chop saw.
Mark
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
> the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
> bastard.
>
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:00:03 GMT, Badger <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>
>> I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
>> the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
>> bastard.
>>
>Accross the whole engineering/woodworking sphere in the Uk the drill
>press has the most injury incidents. Having had one throw a pound of
>cast iron at me, that was clamped, I can well believe it....
>
>Niel.
ahh, but now you're opening up the metal working box of horrors.. *g*
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:06:04 GMT, Badger <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>loutent wrote:
>
>> I also think that a woodworkers wort enemy in this
>> regard is fatigue. The worst things happen toward the
>> end of a shop day (however long that may be for you).
>> If you're lucky it's just a bad miter or something like
>> that.
>
>Your so right, using a recip (sawzall) this week on sheet steel when
>getting tired I had to stop and think when I realised just how stupid
>the cut I was attempting to make was...9 hours in to the third 11 hour
>day rebuilding the wifes car (rusty land-rover).
>
>Niel.
agreed that the fatigue factor is dangerous, but for me, not as bad as the
repetition factor..
I tend to know when I'm getting to tired to have a good attention span when I'm
doing various things in the shop, but the killer is when (on about any tool)
you're into "production" mode and doing several of the same cuts, or whatever...
you really have to stay focused or you sort of go on auto pilot... and that's
when you are at risk..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:17:52 GMT, the inscrutable "J.B. Bobbitt"
<[email protected]> spake:
>I seem to remember reading in the "Letters" section of FWW a long time ago a
>note from a hand surgeon who was also a woodworker. He stated that the
>WORST hand injuries from woodworking resulted from:
>
>1. Ripping on a RAS;
>2. Ripping grooves w/ dado blades on TS.
>
>Both situations are set up so the operator is pushing directly into the
>blade, against considerable resistance. Any slip off the workpiece and
>hands plow into blades and digits fly.
The "OUCH!" factor.
>At my work, our major client, and hence us too, have implemented a "Loss
>Prevention System" (LPS). One of the tenets is called a "safe performance
>self assessment" (SPSA). The SPSA basically is this: before EVERY new job
>element (i.e. after you set up a new cut, but before you reach for the "on"
>switch to rip that board), stop for a few seconds and ask yourself "What can
>go wrong with this set-up?" Then, change your work practice to reduce the
>risk.
Before it was Yuppieized it was called "common sense", and IIRC, our
8th grade Metal & Wood Shop teacher, Mr. Workman, presented it to us
something like this:
"Pay Attention, Dipsticks! You'll -need- those fingers and hands for
the rest of your lives."
>It works for me.
Yes. Use whatever works!
----------------------------------------------------
Thesaurus: Ancient reptile with excellent vocabulary
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications
====================================================
Last survey I saw indicated the bandsaw was the leading stationary power
tool involved in workshop injuries. I think bandsaws are so quiet, compared
to most of the other shop tools, that we become a bit careless. I can't tell
you how many times I have almost pushed my thumb into the blade. Thankfully,
I have always caught myself in time.
Jim Ray, President
McFeely's Square Drive Screws
www.mcfeelys.com
"Teamcasa" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
> > the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
> > bastard.
>
> The dangers of working with any power tool is axiomatic. However, IIRC,
the
> tablesaw has the highest number of accidents. I am not counting the
> numerous less injurious cutting tools like chisels, knives and blades.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.usenet.com
Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> on 4/1/2005 8:41 AM Andy Dingley said the following:
>> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:32:09 GMT, "Max" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>As long as I'm not in there the tools are all harmless.
>>
>>
>> One of my shelves committed seppukku last week and took out the shop
>> radio. I was asleep at the time.
>
> Marking knife or pull saw?
Sloppy either way--sounds more like hari-kari than seppukku.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Prometheus wrote:
> On 31 Mar 2005 10:46:44 -0800, "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
>>the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
>>bastard.
>
> My personal vote is for hand chisels and utility knives. I've never
> hurt myself with a power tool, but I've got a whole pile of scars from
> neander tools. A properly sharpened chisel will hit bone before you
> even know you slipped. (I've got a fingertip on my left hand that is
> still aching like mad after almost a month)
>
> They're all dangerous- it just depends on who you are, and what you're
> doing.
I jabbed myself in the knuckle with an X-acto knife when I was 8 and it
still reminds me on occasion 40+ years later.
> Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"Unquestionably Confused" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark wrote:
>> I don't have a RAS, but the router is the most dangerous in my shop
>> followed
>> by the chop saw.
>> Mark
>>
>> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>I consider the RAS and the drill press to two most dangerous tools in
>>>the the shop. The RAS is obvious but that drill press is a sneaky
>>>bastard.
>
> Could we MAYBE provide even some anectdotal information as to WHY XXXXX or
> XXXXX is the most dangerous?
>
> The upholstery hammer is the most dangerous thing in a shop if that
> happens to be the only tool you have. Sheesh!
I'm arguably the most dangerous tool in my shop. As long as I'm not in
there the tools are all harmless.
Max D.
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:27:27 GMT, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"longshot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>>
>>
>> but the TS will suck you in & spit you out.
>
>
>Actually, It will not. I know this from experience and for piece of mind, I
>experimented with pushing an empty leather glove into a spinning TS blade.
>The glove was only being cut as long as I pushed it and is simply sat in
>place when I stopped pushing the glove into the blade. Your skin and
>bones are way softer than wood and simply "dissolve, so to speak" as they
>hit the blade much like the glove did. The TS will however cut your
>personal body parts as fast as you can feed them, no problem.
>
damn... I realized after reading your post that my right hand was CLENCHED so
hard I had to open it with the other hand...
I try to maintain a healthy balance of fear/respect for all sharp objects, but
the image of a spinning blade cutting through hands or fingers just chills my
shit.. *shiver*
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
loutent wrote:
> I also think that a woodworkers wort enemy in this
> regard is fatigue. The worst things happen toward the
> end of a shop day (however long that may be for you).
> If you're lucky it's just a bad miter or something like
> that.
Your so right, using a recip (sawzall) this week on sheet steel when
getting tired I had to stop and think when I realised just how stupid
the cut I was attempting to make was...9 hours in to the third 11 hour
day rebuilding the wifes car (rusty land-rover).
Niel.
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 03:53:38 GMT, Unquestionably Confused <[email protected]> wrote:
>Could we MAYBE provide even some anectdotal information as to WHY XXXXX
>or XXXXX is the most dangerous?
Only if you qualify the meaning of dangerous.
Most likely to have an accident ? (hammer, chisel, stacked heavy things)
Most serious, if you do have an accident? (spindle moulder, jointer)
In article <[email protected]>,
Jim Vidler <[email protected]> wrote:
> "<name witheld>'s son, Ryan, passed away this week. Ryan was at home
> building a crate or box to house an injured animal, drilling holes in
> the lid when a piece of material broke off and impaled into his heart."
>
> As a woodworker, my curiosity up to know the details. But there's no way
> I'm asking, so don't ask me too.
That's a pretty tough story to believe - at least considering what tools
I use to drill holes and how I do it. I'm thinking something is missing
from the explanation - like the Ryan chucked the crate to the drill
chuck while holding the bit stationary...
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:32:09 +0000, Max wrote:
> I'm arguably the most dangerous tool in my shop. As long as I'm not in
> there the tools are all harmless.
Except for the plastic tubing air lines, and the static charged dust
collector... </me ducks>
--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com
>Has anyone seen "American Woodworker's" new idea that uses a clothespin
>to hold your cultist to the motor of a miter saw?
I would think most cultists are too large to be held securely with a
clothespin. Usually, I use some rope or a roll of duct tape to attach
those pesky cultists to my tools. :)
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 04:32:09 GMT, "Max" <[email protected]> wrote:
>As long as I'm not in there the tools are all harmless.
One of my shelves committed seppukku last week and took out the shop radio. I was asleep at the time.
On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:15:28 GMT, B a r r y <[email protected]> wrote:
>Has anyone seen "American Woodworker's" new idea that uses a clothespin
>to hold your cultist to the motor of a miter saw?
Isn't Readers Digest (who own AW) that trashy little mag that used to always have stories about how "I lost my arm in a
combine /. chainsaw / good honest American blue-collar occupation and had to carry it 20 miles home, which I could only
do because I'm not a Damn Stinking Communist" ?
This is the dumbest idea I've seen all week
(Apart from the "ripping a huge log" accident I'm about to have in a few minutes - If I don't post again, send spare
fingers)
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:27:27 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> but the TS will suck you in & spit you out.
...which is, of course, patently untrue. Your description of reality
was bang on.
>The TS will however cut your
>personal body parts as fast as you can feed them, no problem.
>
But we unfortuantely usually feed them to some extent, as we are
usually pushing in that direction at the time.
On 1 Apr 2005 13:18:49 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
<snip>
>Supposedly the most commonly reported injury with a RAS is the
>amputation of the left thumb by a person operating the saw with
>his right hand. I was taught to operate a RAS with my left hand,
>using my right to steady the workpiece. That way to put my
>hand in the path of the blade I'd have to reach across my
>body. It also means that my entire body is to the right of
>the blade with no part of my body inline with the blade.
>That, in turn, helps to prevent what is supposed to be the
>second most common RAS injury, dislocation of the shoulder
>when the saw kicks back. 'Kickback' in the case of RAS is
>kicking out toward the user.
>
>Using the RAS left-handed sounded silly and awkward at first.
>It's downright unnatural. It's not the way Nahrm uses his.
>But after making one cut that way I was convinced it was the
>right way.
I'm left/correct handed but use most power tools right handed.. the RAS is a
definite exception, for the reasons that you listed..
I actually felt that I was using it "right handed", as I was aligning and
holding the stock with my right hand and only using my left to pull the saw..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
"longshot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>
> but the TS will suck you in & spit you out.
Actually, It will not. I know this from experience and for piece of mind, I
experimented with pushing an empty leather glove into a spinning TS blade.
The glove was only being cut as long as I pushed it and is simply sat in
place when I stopped pushing the glove into the blade. Your skin and
bones are way softer than wood and simply "dissolve, so to speak" as they
hit the blade much like the glove did. The TS will however cut your
personal body parts as fast as you can feed them, no problem.
"Owen Lowe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> That's a pretty tough story to believe - at least considering what tools
> I use to drill holes and how I do it. I'm thinking something is missing
> from the explanation - like the Ryan chucked the crate to the drill
> chuck while holding the bit stationary...
Way hard to believe. Sounds like a story that was "made up" by some one
trying to make a point but does not have a clue.