Bosch oscillating tool review

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:33:26 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:

First, I am in the camp of using a tailed tool. BUT, I use mine on a job s=
ite and I cut and scrape a lot of stuff with it. When I go the Bosch menti=
oned in my mini review, I immediately used it to cut the bottoms off old, h=
ard, 2x6s, hard pieces of yellow pine trim, baseboards, etc. I also used i=
t for all manner of cutting for work inside a kitchen rehab. I get pissed =
off if I pick up a tool and it doesn't work at 100% capacity all the time. =
And since none of my crew guys own an oscillator, if it needs to charge tha=
t could mean down time. I have battery powered tools I use in the job (cir=
cular saw, recip saw, drills, hammer drills, etc.), but an oscillator isn't=
one of them.=20

These are not saws. While they will saw, it is only one aspect of what the=
y do. You should always use the right tool to do the job no matter what, a=
nd these are not made for continually sawing boards, plywood, etc. They ar=
e dandy trimmers, will plunge cut where your circular saw will not, can be =
used as "jamb saws", cabinet installation saws, etc. But these are not mad=
e for heavy duty sawing, sawing in straight lines, or any kind of large pro=
ject work requiring a lot wood cutting.

I do like my corded drills and haven't carried a tailed drill in years and =
years. Today's battery powered tools certainly have their place, and for l=
ight work like a small repair I have a battery powered set I take with me a=
nd don't break out anything corded. =20

=20
> I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backer =
board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. I =
would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will pr=
event failure, then I'll replace the OSB.

You need to replace the OSB. No doubt about it, your tile source is steeri=
ng your right. 1) OSB has open ended strands that will attract moisture, a=
nd in a horizontal installation, this can cause delamination of the strand =
structure. Tile is usually mopped clean at least once in a while and the w=
ater will go into the tiny little micro cracks that you won't notice in you=
r grout lines. The cracks are created from flexing of the substrate, failu=
re of the grout to adhere PERFECTLY to the tile, movement of the foundation=
, and if on wood screeds, weather changes. 2) OSB will flex over time in he=
avy traffic. I have pulled up old carpet laid over OSB subfloor and you ca=
n see the grain is raised under the pathways to bathrooms, bedrooms, etc.fr=
om tiny bits of flexing every time someone walks on it. So it does delamin=
ate some, regardless of any manufacturer's claims. Delamination causes the=
adhesive bonds to break, then the tiles move, the grout joint fails, etc. =
as above.
>=20
> The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. I =
had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board, =
then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.

Make sure that you are installing the correct backer board. The backer tha=
t you have at your local big box may be for vertical use only, NOT to be us=
ed for foot traffic. Make sure you are getting the correct stuff, don't rel=
y on the HD or Lowe's guys; go to a real tile outlet and if possible, talk =
to an installer.=20

I found this on the net, and when we put in tile flooring, this is procedur=
e we follow:

(( 5 steps to a sound ceramic floor ))

1)Prepare a solid, squeak-free subfloor. One of the keys to a long-lasting =
tile installation is the underlying subfloor. ...
=20
2) Get rid of the high ridges and sink the fasteners. ...
=20
3) Embed the cement board in latex-modified thin-set mortar. ...
=20
4) Tape the seams. ...
=20
5) Lay the tile in thin-set.

We have one more thing that I insist on personally, and that is before adhe=
ring the cement board (foot traffic, horizontal grade) to the plywood, I sp=
ray the plywood with a coating of PVC primer to close up the pores a bit on=
the plywood to make sure the adhesive gets a good bite. Plywood will draw=
out the moisture in the adhesive too quickly in some cases and will give a=
less than satisfactory bond. Besides... the latex primer is cheap, cheap =
insurance.

I advise my clients that when laying tile over this configuration that thei=
r grout joints should not be more than 1/2". regardless of prep. Remember,=
grout is not a structural component, and the only function of the grout is=
to keep stuff from getting in between and under the tiles. Wide grout joi=
nts on a wood floor will definitely let go and separate from the tiles.

Good luck on your project. Once you get it going, it won't be too bad if yo=
u follow the right steps. And if you follow them closely, your work will l=
ast as long as the tile does. With that in mind, don't buy cheap tile! Ma=
ke sure you buy something that has a PEI rating or 3 or above so it will st=
and the wear and tear of furniture, kids, coffee tables, cleaning, etc.

Hope you come back here and start a new thread and let all know you are doi=
ng with this! We all love work in progress threads.

Robert

On 3/19/2017 8:50 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/19/2017 3:16 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
>>> one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
>>> the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
>>> other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
>>> it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
>>> dinky Allen wrench.
>>
>> Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
>> Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
>> tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
>> expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
>> the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
>> They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
>> cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.
>>
>> Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
>> have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
>> engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
>> surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
>> that had to be an issue they realized in testing.
>>
>> I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
>> blade slippage was the way the tool operated.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> I think I have had mine slip ONE time and it simply was not tightened
> enough.
> The fact that the blade oscillates probably cancels the tendency to
> loosen, it tightens as much as it loosens.
> I recall talking to a factory rep about the new lug design that was to
> come out shortly. I wanted to know if I was going to want to wait. He
> of course said no, but he said that I would not be losing any advantage.
>
> I think that if slippage had been a concern that the competition would
> not have come on so strongly when the patent for the non-lug model ran out.

Just another thought on this. If your patent runs out you need to
"improve" the design so that you will have an advantage over the soon to
come competition. Had slippage been a serious problem I think they
would have addressed it some where in the 20 years before the patent ran
out.
It is not unusual for a manufacturer to give in to a perceived need that
the customer wants, more of a marketing thing.

IIRC the time my blade loosened was when I had the blade turned a little
left of the direct line of push, naturally the blade wanted to turn the
attachment bolt in the loosening direction.

But with simply pushing the tool in line with the direction that the
blade is pointed, I have not has a loosening issue since.

Also, and this may be the trick too, the rep that I spoke to indicated
to not simply push the blade and tool straight into the work. He
indicated to also use a slight back and forth motion to help clear the
teeth. I did find that the tool cuts faster when using that motion.

Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.
>>
>> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
>>
>> I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's
>> day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was
>> somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases.
>> It is a discontinued
>>
>> Robert
>
> So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>

I would ask the question, are you likely going to use the tool enough to
wear it out in the next 5-6 years.
If not I would suggest getting the tailed one. Manufacturers are
notorious for changing battery design and you may end up with a tool that
you may not be able to find replacement batteries for. And i have not see
a battery rebuild place that rebuilds Lithium Ion.

Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 12:29:20 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 4/16/2017 11:06 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> > Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> >>
> >> My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in
> >> the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile.
> >> After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to
> >> install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think about that.
> >> That vanity is in there pretty good.
> >>
> >> Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
> >> install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating
> >> tool will be very helpful there as well.
> >>
> >> After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.
> >>
> >> So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >
> > Go with the tailed version and get your projects done. You can always
> > buy a untailed version later, when you find one for a good price.
> >
> > Btw, oscillating tools tend to be much slower than circular saws. It's
> > just their nature. Trying to cut an 8' board that usually takes a minu=
te
> > or two with a circular saw will take an hour or better with the
> > oscillating saw, even with good technique. Just want to keep your
> > expectations in line.
> >
> > Puckdropper
> >
>=20
> YES! the oscillating tool is not a replacement of a jig saw or circular=
=20
> saw. It simply gets into tight areas that would other wise be almost=20
> impossible to access. But it does this with sanding and grout removing=
=20
> capabilities also. I use mine a lot to flush cut through Domino's that=
=20
> reinforce my drawer joints.

Yes, there's no way I'd use it to cut 8 feet plywood sheets. I'll need it t=
o cut the OSB that's flush to the cabinets and walls. I'll also use it to s=
crap linoleum where I need to. I'm also picturing using it to clear out tig=
ht areas so I can fit in the plywood and backer board.

Mike

On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 6:08:22 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> >> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.
> >>
> >> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
> >>
> >> I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's
> >> day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was
> >> somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases.
> >> It is a discontinued
> >>
> >> Robert
> >
> > So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
> I would ask the question, are you likely going to use the tool enough to
> wear it out in the next 5-6 years.
> If not I would suggest getting the tailed one. Manufacturers are
> notorious for changing battery design and you may end up with a tool that
> you may not be able to find replacement batteries for. And i have not see
> a battery rebuild place that rebuilds Lithium Ion.
>
> Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
> only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.

Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer constant and full power. But I am wondering if people most often prefer the mobility of a drill when they use their oscillating tool.

Mike

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

> > It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your area.
> > I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on their pegs
> > from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the expensive blades
> > from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how expensive are they? :-)

As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new Feins, for =
"any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter, and for the //new=
est// top line model you can only use the Fein blades.
=20
> I have hit a few nails with the wood cutting blades. They wore out on=20
> the first plunge. ;~( I had a lot of cutting to do and the bi-metal=20
> blades just were not cutting fast enough, or so I thought. LOL
> And that was when a 3 pack was north of $100.

Those were scary days. In bulk, you can buy the genuine article for about $=
8 - $9 a blade. The problem is that the wood blades are still highly aller=
gic to metal, and and the bimetal blades aren't much better than they were.

Not so good when cutting into nail filled wood trim, cutting into baseboard=
and hitting a sheetrock nail (or worse, a screw), or hitting an 8d that wa=
s toe nailed on the edge of a stud to straighten it out in a wall.

After trying every blade brand and style I could find, I finally found some=
that hit the sweet spot for me and I keep both wood cutting and bimetal in=
all 3 of my multitool tool bags. The blades are very inexpensive and I fe=
el that I get about 90% performance at 15% of the cost of the name brands. =
So I keep a couple of each in the two oscillators that go to the jobs, and=
a couple in the new Bosch. The "real deal" blades stay with me and I won'=
t use them unless I am sure I won't damage them by accident.

These tools can still be expensive to operate if you aren't careful.=20

Robert

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:24:28 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
=20
> Did they change something?
> I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.
=20
Mike, yes they have. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, and a well=
written review is worth about that much, check it out. This is a well wri=
tten article, and the comments at the bottom certainly reflect my feelings.=
Is this a solution to a problem that didn't exist? Is this a marketing p=
loy? =20

http://toolguyd.com/bosch-fein-starlock-oscillating-multi-tool-interface-pr=
eview/

It has a drawing, and then a picture of the "3d system" blades with the lar=
ge concave cap that looks like an old beer bottle cap.

Here is a look at the various adapters for he new Starlock, including one f=
rom Festool. I would be PISSED OFF beyond reason to have a $500 - $650 Fes=
tool multitool only to find that to use certain blades I will need to buy s=
omething else, a frickin' adapter for a tool that worked great as designed.

From what I have read, Bosch CLAIMS that their new offering will still use =
any blade out there with the tool as purchased, no adapter required. Fein =
on the other hand makes no bones about it, you need the adapter to use the =
old style blades with their new system. Note too, they do mention in the r=
eview/article that there is speculation that the new blade configuration is=
nothing more than a market gimmick.

Regardless of Bosch/Fein's claim that they will lock up better (no empirica=
l evidence presented or found by me) and that they will reduce multitool in=
juries (huh?), I don't believe it.

It is obvious that these guys want back in the blade business. Repeat buye=
rs of consumables are what make some of these tools profitable beyond their=
actual utility. I think that Fein has made that clear with their now "top=
line" model that will not use any blades except their new configuration. N=
ow that the folks on the Pacific Rim have mastered their multi tool blade/a=
ccessory manufacturing I almost never buy the Fein/Bosch blades, or anyone =
else's. I have bought a bunch of these, and at $1.75 each they kill it.

https://www.amazon.com/Cibtek-Oscillating-Multitool-Multimaster-Craftsman/d=
p/B00YG84DJ6

When I got my first batch, I put them on a tool, and cut through 10 nails I=
shot into a board for testing purposes. Barely showed any wear. Cut thro=
ugh a couple of yellow pine 2x6s, then through another 5 nails. As with al=
l bi metals, the smaller teeth can make it a challenge to cut wood, but the=
se worked as well as expected. After all that, the blade still had a lot o=
f life left in it. Knowing that I could cut through sheet rock and into a =
16 gauge plumbing shield, rip down the length of a nail that was used for a=
previous repair (like an 8d), cut downwards through a sole plate and nick =
concrete, and all the other stuff that happens to these blades during blind=
/plunge cuts, why would I spend $10 a piece when they could be ruined in a =
few seconds?
=20
The only blades that beat them out on the job, and I wouldn't want to live =
on the difference, is the Bosch or Fein. DeWalt, Dremel, HF, Lowe's (Blue =
Hawk) are OK to awful in quality. Besides, if I am going to spend that much=
for blades, I am going to the top of the chain for an extra couple of buck=
s.

BTW, lots of Youtube chatter about the Starlock system, some like it, some =
don't, like most, they use these tools once or twice a month (if at all), b=
ut the ones I watched don't consider the cost of consumables as part of too=
l ownership and cost to own. Saving $7 - $8 a blade or more can easily put=
you in the range of buying other tools you might need.

I guess this blade change business pisses me off as I have lost money on it=
in the past. I had industrial rated circular saws that I spent a /lot/ of=
money on that had diamond arbors. Remember the diamond knockouts on the s=
aw blades? Seen one lately? The new blades without the knockout were chea=
per and easier to make, and rendered the knockout obsolete, even though it =
was vastly superior at holding blades. Likewise, same deal on recip saws. =
Bought two saws that used blades that had an extra indexing and hold down =
notch stamped into the blade. They quit making the saw blades with the not=
ch in them, so the new blades (as we have now) wouldn't work as the peg in =
the saw chuck wouldn't allow the blade to sit flat when tightened. Had the=
same thing happen to my larger jig saw with an old Bosch I bought. I had =
to use Bosch blades as they had a slightly thicker shaft. An old Rockwell =
that was in the tool box for a while used the same blades. Then they start=
ed with "T" blades, and simply quit making the blades those saws used.

Each time these changes came about I was left holding tools that represente=
d a good sized investment that were useless after blades stocks ran out. =
=20

I think that with the millions of multi tools of all sorts (including Fein!=
) that use the old system, blades and secondary market blades will continue=
to be available. Not too worried, but still pissed off at myself for buyi=
ng into tools that used only proprietary consumables. Never again.

Robert

On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 9:13:06 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

> It is not unusual for a manufacturer to give in to a perceived need that=
=20
> the customer wants, more of a marketing thing.

Well said, and very true. Every manufacturing company whether it is refrig=
erators or skateboards lives on "innovation", real or perceived. "Innovati=
on" brings the latest and greatest item to the market, and brings a reason =
to purchase to the consumer.

To me, that is what is going on now with the "Starlock" system with the bot=
tle cap blades and accessories. They claim that the new system transfers X=
X% more power from the motor to the tool head, and that it prevents blade s=
lippage and possible operator injury. I think it is collusion that the two=
best manufacturers have come up with a new configuration for tools that wi=
ll a new standard whether we want it or not.

Since I have never seen (I take J. Clarke's word on his experience with his=
)a lugged Fein or Bosch that had blade slippage. Neither of my 8 lug HF mo=
dels have any, and I certainly wouldn't hold them up to any high standard o=
f manufacturing tolerances.

There may be some marginal improvement with the new blade configuration, bu=
t I think at best this was a solution that was looking for a problem.

Robert

[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.
>
> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
>
> I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's
> day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was
> somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases. It
> is a discontinued tool, but since the new tool replacing this one isn't
> really much different, when this one was marked down they sold so many
> they raised the start price back up to $149. They still have the Bosch
> discount on the tool, though so you can get there for $129.
>
> It was nicknamed the "Fein killer" in an interview or two, and I can see
> why. It is a well made tool (mine in Switzerland)and is a very well
> thought out machine. It has plenty of power, a long cord of 13', soft
> start, variable speed, and tooless blade change. The bag is very sturdy,
> the bag holds the tool with velcro hold downs, and an accessory box that
> comes with really useful blades, sandpaper and sandpaper attachment, and
> a depth stop gauge. In other words, the tool is ready to go to work.
>
> So off it went to a job with a lot of wood repair, then to a front door
> remove and replace. I cut incredibly hard 2x6 pressurized boards on a
> garage jambs and did some miscellaneous sanding on one job. Then cut a
> ton of old trim to accomodate the larger trim picked out by the home
> owner as well as cut out worn and damaged trim to replace it. I did it
> all with the same blade, and the Bosch blades are pretty expensive but
> they did hold up well. The machine was flawless and worked well. When
> cutting the 2x6s, it never got hot, there was no real vibration, and
> there was plenty of power at medium speed. The slower than normal speed
> kept me from burning up the blade as it kept the heat down.
>
> When I was cutting the old trims away, it was easy to control and I
> really came to appreciate the slow start. I also used it to cut the 2x4
> shims off that I used to hang the new metal door. My particular method
> of door hanging requires me to use a lot of shims, and this one was no
> different. I cut them out of 2x4 on site, and usually put about 20 shims
> per door in place. After securing the shims (wedges, really) I flush cut
> them to the jamb. Still on the same blade at this point. So I tried
> another test. Took the 15ga trim nailer and shot through a piece of trim
> so the nails came out the other side. Took the 18ga nailer and did the
> same thing. Plugged in the saw, and buzzed through all the nails with no
> problems, cutting them flush in a few seconds with the bi metal blade I
> had been using all along. There is plenty of life left on the blade, even now.
>
> I compare this tool to the equivalent Fein, and to me this one wins hands
> down. It SEEMS that is isn't as noisy as the Fein. It does have less
> vibration, and I like the tooless blade change on this one a bit better.
> The cord has this interesting ball joint gizmo where it goes into the
> machine that is supposed to keep the wear down, and it does a great job
> of keeping the strain down. This has a 12 point grip on the saw blades,
> the Fein has 8. In practice, I don't know how important that is, but if
> it is like lugs on a truck tire, I will take 12 over 8. I like the heavy
> duty nylon bag much more than the Fein's big plastic case as it is much,
> much smaller. The tool has a lower speed and then kicks up higher than
> the commensurate Fein model. Don't know that it means much on the top
> end, but the slower speeds are something I like on this type of tool.
>
> Power and amperage are about the same, as are the cutting capabilities.
> Until this tool came along I couldn't imagine a better oscillator than
> the Fein. I tried a couple of others (Ridgid, DeWalt, HF) and the Fein
> was head and hands above them in performance and tool build. After some
> horse trading, I was took two back and stuck with the HF. Loud, rattly,
> and a bit under powered, the HF has been on the job for a few years and
> it did what it was supposed to do, for a princely $15.
>
> I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two bathrooms
> coming up, and these tools are made for maintenance/repair/remodeling
> contractors. I saw this one at the low price, and now I wish I had bought
> two! Still, even at $129 it is well worth the money. Then of course,
> the elephant in the room if you are looking for a multitool... compare
> the price of this tool to the commensurate model Fein and look at the
> price difference. You could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!
>
> Robert
>

Now you have a machine worthy of your talent! Now that and the circular
blade do a dandy job of cutting through Domino tenons on drawers.

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 10:20:58 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 4/16/2017 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:
>=20
> >>
> >> Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally th=
e
> >> only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.
> >=20
> > Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer constant =
and full power. But I am wondering if people most often prefer the mobility=
of a drill when they use their oscillating tool.
> >=20
> > Mike
> >=20
>=20
> Drill aside, the decision maker for me is where you use it. I don't use=
=20
> the oscillating tool that often and when I do, it is 90% in the shop,=20
> 10% in my own house and yes, we have electricity in the house.
>=20
> If I was often using it a job sites I'd go battery.

My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in the =
bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. After much c=
onsultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to install tile aro=
und it. I'd be curious what others think about that. That vanity is in ther=
e pretty good.

Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and install=
3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating tool will be=
very helpful there as well.

After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.

So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.

Mike

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
=20
> I'm sure Robert has a better answer but tiling under the vanity makes it=
=20
> easier for the next "re-do" I build my own vanities so I simply build=20
> them the same size or larger. BUT if you are re tiling it is not that=20
> much more trouble to cover the whole floor.

Nope. I like that one!

There is only one instance where I don't pull toilet and vanity, and that i=
s when it is a "landlord" job, where my client wants the work done as cheap=
ly as possible. Otherwise, I agree that it is best to pull the work. Be a=
ware that if you don't pull the cabinet, you can have some screwy looking e=
ffects depending on the thickness of your tile, the adhesive, the board, et=
c. that can creep up about an inch depending on what you do. =20

I pull the cabs, baseboards and toilets for a better, cleaner install. I d=
on't like a funky look to it where you can feel the cabinet height is off w=
hen you are washing your hands, the baseboards look short, and the toilet i=
s now part of a permanent install from being grouted in. Besides, when you=
pull <<everything>>, the tile job in a bath is a snap! A lot fewer cuts a=
nd plenty of room to work on the floor instead of wedging yourself in there=
to work. When you start your work, remember to take the entry door off the=
hinges as well for the duration of the job to get that out of your way, to=
o. It is surprising how much faster and how much better a job turns out wh=
en access is easy.=20

And as Leon said, building your own vanities has its place. If you are asp=
iring to do some cabinetry, the bath is a great place to start. A simple c=
arcass style constructed cabinet can be quite satisfying to build, and can =
give you enough cabinet experience to be proud of yourself. A good carcass=
, nice facing, well fitted doors and a drawer bank is a nice size, doable p=
roject.

Be aware that if you pull the cabinet you will need to take that new oscill=
ating tool and raise the holes for your plumbing in the cabinet back the co=
rresponding amount of your tile/substrate thickness. Likewise, you will ne=
ed to reset the top as it is no doubt caulked in at the edges, and may need=
to reset a mirror.

When you do a project like this, think like a contractor. Imagine yourself=
walking into the bathroom and thinking, "what would be my very first thing=
to do?", make yourself a list of all the tasks needed, form a time line, a=
nd then a final list of organization and schedule. With that, you will lea=
ve out almost nothing, you can always tell what needs to be done next, and =
where you are time-wise in the project when your significant other says, "O=
K, tell me again how much longer until I can use this bathroom again".

Robert

On 3/16/2017 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
> Snip


[snip again]

>> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
>> The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
>> The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
>> the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
>> and/or incentives for us, the buyers.
>>
>>
>
> ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
> $35-$40 each!


Pretty much unanimous on the value of these multi-tools. I've had the
Bosch cordless unit for probably 6 years now and the only fault I've
found is that I didn't buy one 20 years ago!

One of the handiest tools in my collection. Any time I head out to do a
job at one of the kid's homes, it goes with me. Doesn't matter the job,
7 out of 10 times SOMETHING will crop up that this thing will cure easily.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:Mq2dnVuG0MnhllbFnZ2dnUU7-
[email protected]:

>
> A little OT but maybe you remember. When I was much younger and looked
> thought the Sears catalog and specifically the mechanics tools sets. The
> number of pieces were listed. They always included the 20~30 hacksaw
> blades and the individual Allen wrenches in the total pieces. ;~)
>

Is it a separate piece if it's soldered onto a board? I've got like a
10,000 piece set underneath my fingertips right now!

(Yeah, it's a stretch to count the transistors that go into making up the
components. Next thing you know, Avagadro's number will be involved. X*
6.022x10^23 atom set!)

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in
> the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile.
> After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to
> install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think about that.
> That vanity is in there pretty good.
>
> Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
> install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating
> tool will be very helpful there as well.
>
> After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.
>
> So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.
>
> Mike

Go with the tailed version and get your projects done. You can always
buy a untailed version later, when you find one for a good price.

Btw, oscillating tools tend to be much slower than circular saws. It's
just their nature. Trying to cut an 8' board that usually takes a minute
or two with a circular saw will take an hour or better with the
oscillating saw, even with good technique. Just want to keep your
expectations in line.

Puckdropper

--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing and
> reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled under it.
*snip*

It sure wouldn't hurt to buy a couple extra boxes of tile and store them
somewhere safe. That way, if you need to get a new vanity with a different
foot print you'll have the tile available to fill in the gaps.

10 years down the road, there's a great chance your tile won't be available
anywhere.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On 3/18/2017 1:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 8:18:15 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
>>>> The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade,
>>>> strictly friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you
>>>> need the adapter. I have not found the non lugs to be an issue
>>>> however.
>
>> No lugs on mine, wanna trade? :-)
>
> Whoa... talk about an early model!! How old is that machine?


Got it in August 2006

I bought just as there was talk about the lugged model was soon to
appear. found it on the internet for $306. It has the metal case and
IIRC was considered the TOP. Had lots of sand paper and sanding
profiles, e-cut blades, sound blade, and grout blade.


>
> I believe you never had a problem with it. Think about it, all your
> circular saws use friction fit, and unless you have a dirty bushing
> the blades never slip.
>
> OTOH, I thought the Fein machine started with the wavy pattern around
> the spindle hole, but no lugs. If it is these, I never saw any
> reason to change the configuration as I couldn't see how the blade
> could ever slip.
>
> goo.gl/F24sDF
>
> Robert
>

On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 08:42:45 -0700 (PDT), Michael
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 10:20:58 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 4/16/2017 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >> Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
>> >> only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.
>> >
>> > Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer constant and full power. But I am wondering if people most often prefer the mobility of a drill when they use their oscillating tool.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>>
>> Drill aside, the decision maker for me is where you use it. I don't use
>> the oscillating tool that often and when I do, it is 90% in the shop,
>> 10% in my own house and yes, we have electricity in the house.
>>
>> If I was often using it a job sites I'd go battery.
>
>My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think about that. That vanity is in there pretty good.

I'd never do it. I remove cabinets and tile under them, as well.

>Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating tool will be very helpful there as well.

Absolutely, but you never know what part of the job will be such a
PITA that you'll thank yourself for having it handy. ;-)

>After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.

I don't use mine all that often but when it's needed, nothing else
comes close.

>So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/17/17 9:51 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/17/2017 9:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 3/17/17 12:41 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your
>>>>>> area. I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on
>>>>>> their pegs from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the
>>>>>> expensive blades from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how
>>>>>> expensive are they? :-)
>>>>
>>>> As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new
>>>> Feins, for "any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter,
>>>> and for the //newest// top line model you can only use the Fein
>>>> blades.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>
>>> Did they change something?
>>> I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
>> friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter. I
>> have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.
>
> My Fein has the splines on the mount and all its blades have the slots.
>
>

No lugs on mine, wanna trade? :-)

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 11:45:46 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> =20
> > I'm sure Robert has a better answer but tiling under the vanity makes i=
t=20
> > easier for the next "re-do" I build my own vanities so I simply build=
=20
> > them the same size or larger. BUT if you are re tiling it is not that=
=20
> > much more trouble to cover the whole floor.
>=20
> Nope. I like that one!
>=20
> There is only one instance where I don't pull toilet and vanity, and that=
is when it is a "landlord" job, where my client wants the work done as che=
aply as possible. Otherwise, I agree that it is best to pull the work. Be=
aware that if you don't pull the cabinet, you can have some screwy looking=
effects depending on the thickness of your tile, the adhesive, the board, =
etc. that can creep up about an inch depending on what you do. =20
>=20
> I pull the cabs, baseboards and toilets for a better, cleaner install. I=
don't like a funky look to it where you can feel the cabinet height is off=
when you are washing your hands, the baseboards look short, and the toilet=
is now part of a permanent install from being grouted in. Besides, when y=
ou pull <<everything>>, the tile job in a bath is a snap! A lot fewer cuts=
and plenty of room to work on the floor instead of wedging yourself in the=
re to work. When you start your work, remember to take the entry door off t=
he hinges as well for the duration of the job to get that out of your way, =
too. It is surprising how much faster and how much better a job turns out =
when access is easy.=20
>=20
> And as Leon said, building your own vanities has its place. If you are a=
spiring to do some cabinetry, the bath is a great place to start. A simple=
carcass style constructed cabinet can be quite satisfying to build, and ca=
n give you enough cabinet experience to be proud of yourself. A good carca=
ss, nice facing, well fitted doors and a drawer bank is a nice size, doable=
project.
>=20
> Be aware that if you pull the cabinet you will need to take that new osci=
llating tool and raise the holes for your plumbing in the cabinet back the =
corresponding amount of your tile/substrate thickness. Likewise, you will =
need to reset the top as it is no doubt caulked in at the edges, and may ne=
ed to reset a mirror.
>=20
> When you do a project like this, think like a contractor. Imagine yourse=
lf walking into the bathroom and thinking, "what would be my very first thi=
ng to do?", make yourself a list of all the tasks needed, form a time line,=
and then a final list of organization and schedule. With that, you will l=
eave out almost nothing, you can always tell what needs to be done next, an=
d where you are time-wise in the project when your significant other says, =
"OK, tell me again how much longer until I can use this bathroom again".
>=20
> Robert

Thanks, Robert! It's pretty great getting professional advice here. While =
I'm in there, I think I'll just go ahead and pull the big tub too and put i=
n a whirlpool. Might as well do it all.

Mike

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 1:56:19 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:33:26 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>=20
> First, I am in the camp of using a tailed tool. BUT, I use mine on a job=
site and I cut and scrape a lot of stuff with it. When I go the Bosch men=
tioned in my mini review, I immediately used it to cut the bottoms off old,=
hard, 2x6s, hard pieces of yellow pine trim, baseboards, etc. I also used=
it for all manner of cutting for work inside a kitchen rehab. I get pisse=
d off if I pick up a tool and it doesn't work at 100% capacity all the time=
. And since none of my crew guys own an oscillator, if it needs to charge t=
hat could mean down time. I have battery powered tools I use in the job (c=
ircular saw, recip saw, drills, hammer drills, etc.), but an oscillator isn=
't one of them.=20
>=20
> These are not saws. While they will saw, it is only one aspect of what t=
hey do. You should always use the right tool to do the job no matter what,=
and these are not made for continually sawing boards, plywood, etc. They =
are dandy trimmers, will plunge cut where your circular saw will not, can b=
e used as "jamb saws", cabinet installation saws, etc. But these are not m=
ade for heavy duty sawing, sawing in straight lines, or any kind of large p=
roject work requiring a lot wood cutting.
>=20
> I do like my corded drills and haven't carried a tailed drill in years an=
d years. Today's battery powered tools certainly have their place, and for=
light work like a small repair I have a battery powered set I take with me=
and don't break out anything corded. =20
>=20
> =20
> > I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backe=
r board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. =
I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will =
prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.
>=20
> You need to replace the OSB. No doubt about it, your tile source is stee=
ring your right. 1) OSB has open ended strands that will attract moisture,=
and in a horizontal installation, this can cause delamination of the stran=
d structure. Tile is usually mopped clean at least once in a while and the=
water will go into the tiny little micro cracks that you won't notice in y=
our grout lines. The cracks are created from flexing of the substrate, fai=
lure of the grout to adhere PERFECTLY to the tile, movement of the foundati=
on, and if on wood screeds, weather changes. 2) OSB will flex over time in =
heavy traffic. I have pulled up old carpet laid over OSB subfloor and you =
can see the grain is raised under the pathways to bathrooms, bedrooms, etc.=
from tiny bits of flexing every time someone walks on it. So it does delam=
inate some, regardless of any manufacturer's claims. Delamination causes t=
he adhesive bonds to break, then the tiles move, the grout joint fails, etc=
. as above.
> >=20
> > The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. =
I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board=
, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.
>=20
> Make sure that you are installing the correct backer board. The backer t=
hat you have at your local big box may be for vertical use only, NOT to be =
used for foot traffic. Make sure you are getting the correct stuff, don't r=
ely on the HD or Lowe's guys; go to a real tile outlet and if possible, tal=
k to an installer.=20
>=20
> I found this on the net, and when we put in tile flooring, this is proced=
ure we follow:
>=20
> (( 5 steps to a sound ceramic floor ))
>=20
> 1)Prepare a solid, squeak-free subfloor. One of the keys to a long-lastin=
g tile installation is the underlying subfloor. ...
> =20
> 2) Get rid of the high ridges and sink the fasteners. ...
> =20
> 3) Embed the cement board in latex-modified thin-set mortar. ...
> =20
> 4) Tape the seams. ...
> =20
> 5) Lay the tile in thin-set.
>=20
> We have one more thing that I insist on personally, and that is before ad=
hering the cement board (foot traffic, horizontal grade) to the plywood, I =
spray the plywood with a coating of PVC primer to close up the pores a bit =
on the plywood to make sure the adhesive gets a good bite. Plywood will dr=
aw out the moisture in the adhesive too quickly in some cases and will give=
a less than satisfactory bond. Besides... the latex primer is cheap, chea=
p insurance.
>=20
> I advise my clients that when laying tile over this configuration that th=
eir grout joints should not be more than 1/2". regardless of prep. Remembe=
r, grout is not a structural component, and the only function of the grout =
is to keep stuff from getting in between and under the tiles. Wide grout j=
oints on a wood floor will definitely let go and separate from the tiles.
>=20
> Good luck on your project. Once you get it going, it won't be too bad if =
you follow the right steps. And if you follow them closely, your work will=
last as long as the tile does. With that in mind, don't buy cheap tile! =
Make sure you buy something that has a PEI rating or 3 or above so it will =
stand the wear and tear of furniture, kids, coffee tables, cleaning, etc.
>=20
> Hope you come back here and start a new thread and let all know you are d=
oing with this! We all love work in progress threads.
>=20
> Robert

Thanks, Robert! What are your thoughts on removing the vanity in the bathr=
oom to tile underneath? I'm inclined not to do it, but I'm really on the fe=
nce.

Thanks,

Mike

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 1:10:08 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
=20
> Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years ago=20
> and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent expired about=
=20
> 10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless units that others=20
> were able to compete.
>=20
> It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones in 10=
=20
> or so years.

But... the lesson I learned many, many years ago is that if a tool will mak=
e you money year after year, is reliable, versatile, and the consumables ar=
e affordable you should buy it. My only misfire is the oscillating tool, a=
nd as I said even at the Fein prices of 30 years ago I should have bit. I =
have been using my awful HF for about 10-12 years now and can't imagine a r=
emodel without it.

The point being, if anyone needs that level of joinery, convenience and can=
put that bad boy to work (or if they just enjoy it!), they should buy a Do=
mino now. I have soul searched every time you put one of your "assembled w=
ith Dominoes" projects up with the details of assembly to see if there was =
any way I could get close to using one enough to justify it. Screw waiting=
until a clone comes out.

And you never know; they have tried more than once to make a clone doweling=
machine like the Mafell. You would think at $1300-$1400 someone could com=
e up with something. Nope. The Frued was a miserable attempt, and pulled =
off the market after a short time. Makita had one, only in production for =
a short time. Triton still makes one that is around $200, but talking to u=
sers and reading reviews you are better off with something else. At one tim=
e I really wanted a doweling machine because back in the 70s we were still =
using a fair amount of dowels in cabinet construction and some aspects of g=
eneral wood working.

So if they can't perfect a doweling machine that essentially drills two hol=
es at the same time by a series of gears, using a fairly immovable set of h=
olders and gears, how could they replicate the Domino? I have seen explode=
d views of the machine working and it is truly a precision instrument.

I think the Domino won't see a viable competitor for years.

Still trying to worm one into my business...

Robert

On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:50:08 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

> My Fein has what looks like the starlock mount.
> I guess I have a newer one.

If you bought on or around late May of 2016, then it might be a Starlock. It would be marked as a Starlock machine.

If you can pick up a blade with the bottle cap top without touching the release/lock lever like this

http://www.kelvinpowertools.com/blog/blog/new-bosch-fein-starlock-system

you have a Starlock.

If your blades look like a bottle cap at the mounting head of the spindle like this

https://fein.com/en_us/starlock/

you have Starlock machine.

Robert

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 8:18:15 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

> >> The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
> >> friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter. I
> >> have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.

> No lugs on mine, wanna trade? :-)

Whoa... talk about an early model!! How old is that machine?

I believe you never had a problem with it. Think about it, all your circular saws use friction fit, and unless you have a dirty bushing the blades never slip.

OTOH, I thought the Fein machine started with the wavy pattern around the spindle hole, but no lugs. If it is these, I never saw any reason to change the configuration as I couldn't see how the blade could ever slip.

goo.gl/F24sDF

Robert

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> A little OT but maybe you remember. When I was much younger and looked
> thought the Sears catalog and specifically the mechanics tools sets. The
> number of pieces were listed. They always included the 20~30 hacksaw
> blades and the individual Allen wrenches in the total pieces. ;~)

Reminds me of the convoluted formula Sears would compute the HP ratings
on their electric motors.

Dave in SoTex

On 3/19/2017 10:01 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/19/17 3:16 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
>>> one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
>>> the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
>>> other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
>>> it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
>>> dinky Allen wrench.
>>
>> Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
>> Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
>> tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
>> expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
>> the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
>> They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
>> cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.
>>
>> Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
>> have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
>> engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
>> surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
>> that had to be an issue they realized in testing.
>>
>> I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
>> blade slippage was the way the tool operated.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> Believe it or not, my HF tool did *not* have those lugs and it rarely
> loosened.
> I know HF added them at some point, but I have the model without.
>
>

I really believe the lugs are a feature that is not necessary unless you
tend to be hard on the tool, and maybe not even then.

[email protected] wrote:
> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.
>
> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
>
> I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases. It is a discontinued tool, but since the new tool replacing this one isn't really much different, when this one was marked down they sold so many they raised the start price back up to $149. They still have the Bosch discount on the tool, though so you can get there for $129.
>
> It was nicknamed the "Fein killer" in an interview or two, and I can see why. It is a well made tool (mine in Switzerland)and is a very well thought out machine. It has plenty of power, a long cord of 13', soft start, variable speed, and tooless blade change. The bag is very sturdy, the bag holds the tool with velcro hold downs, and an accessory box that comes with really useful blades, sandpaper and sandpaper attachment, and a depth stop gauge. In other words, the tool is ready to go to work.
>
> So off it went to a job with a lot of wood repair, then to a front door remove and replace. I cut incredibly hard 2x6 pressurized boards on a garage jambs and did some miscellaneous sanding on one job. Then cut a ton of old trim to accomodate the larger trim picked out by the home owner as well as cut out worn and damaged trim to replace it. I did it all with the same blade, and the Bosch blades are pretty expensive but they did hold up well. The machine was flawless and worked well. When cutting the 2x6s, it never got hot, there was no real vibration, and there was plenty of power at medium speed. The slower than normal speed kept me from burning up the blade as it kept the heat down.
>
> When I was cutting the old trims away, it was easy to control and I really came to appreciate the slow start. I also used it to cut the 2x4 shims off that I used to hang the new metal door. My particular method of door hanging requires me to use a lot of shims, and this one was no different. I cut them out of 2x4 on site, and usually put about 20 shims per door in place. After securing the shims (wedges, really) I flush cut them to the jamb. Still on the same blade at this point. So I tried another test. Took the 15ga trim nailer and shot through a piece of trim so the nails came out the other side. Took the 18ga nailer and did the same thing. Plugged in the saw, and buzzed through all the nails with no problems, cutting them flush in a few seconds with the bi metal blade I had been using all along. There is plenty of life left on the blade, even now.
>
> I compare this tool to the equivalent Fein, and to me this one wins hands down. It SEEMS that is isn't as noisy as the Fein. It does have less vibration, and I like the tooless blade change on this one a bit better. The cord has this interesting ball joint gizmo where it goes into the machine that is supposed to keep the wear down, and it does a great job of keeping the strain down. This has a 12 point grip on the saw blades, the Fein has 8. In practice, I don't know how important that is, but if it is like lugs on a truck tire, I will take 12 over 8. I like the heavy duty nylon bag much more than the Fein's big plastic case as it is much, much smaller. The tool has a lower speed and then kicks up higher than the commensurate Fein model. Don't know that it means much on the top end, but the slower speeds are something I like on this type of tool.
>
> Power and amperage are about the same, as are the cutting capabilities. Until this tool came along I couldn't imagine a better oscillator than the Fein. I tried a couple of others (Ridgid, DeWalt, HF) and the Fein was head and hands above them in performance and tool build. After some horse trading, I was took two back and stuck with the HF. Loud, rattly, and a bit under powered, the HF has been on the job for a few years and it did what it was supposed to do, for a princely $15.
>
> I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two bathrooms coming up, and these tools are made for maintenance/repair/remodeling contractors. I saw this one at the low price, and now I wish I had bought two! Still, even at $129 it is well worth the money. Then of course, the elephant in the room if you are looking for a multitool... compare the price of this tool to the commensurate model Fein and look at the price difference. You could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!
>
> Robert
>
Excellent review!

--
GW Ross

On 3/16/2017 8:49 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:09:53 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/16/2017 11:18 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>>> On 3/16/2017 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Snip
>>>
>>>
>>> [snip again]
>>>
>>>>> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
>>>>> The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
>>>>> The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
>>>>> the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
>>>>> and/or incentives for us, the buyers.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
>>>> $35-$40 each!
>>>
>>>
>>> Pretty much unanimous on the value of these multi-tools. I've had the
>>> Bosch cordless unit for probably 6 years now and the only fault I've
>>> found is that I didn't buy one 20 years ago!
>>
>> Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years ago
>> and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent expired about
>> 10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless units that others
>> were able to compete.
>>
>> It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones in 10
>> or so years.
>>
> Or SawStop clones in two or three years. ;-)

Exactly. Bosch probably has no issue with waiting and tweaking until
they can sell with the blessings of the powers that regulate.

On 3/16/2017 8:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 1:10:08 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
>> Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years
>> ago and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent
>> expired about 10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless
>> units that others were able to compete.
>>
>> It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones
>> in 10 or so years.
>
> But... the lesson I learned many, many years ago is that if a tool
> will make you money year after year, is reliable, versatile, and the
> consumables are affordable you should buy it. My only misfire is the
> oscillating tool, and as I said even at the Fein prices of 30 years
> ago I should have bit. I have been using my awful HF for about 10-12
> years now and can't imagine a remodel without it.

I have learned that lesson too. You CAN blame the tool if it is not up
to your level of expertise. ;~)

>
> The point being, if anyone needs that level of joinery, convenience
> and can put that bad boy to work (or if they just enjoy it!), they
> should buy a Domino now.

Totally agree.

I have soul searched every time you put one
> of your "assembled with Dominoes" projects up with the details of
> assembly to see if there was any way I could get close to using one
> enough to justify it. Screw waiting until a clone comes out.

I think if I were in your shoes it would be extremely hard to justify
from a business point of view. Fortunately for me I did not have to
justify to learn the value of the tool. Now however, for what I use the
tool for, I could easily justify a replacement.



>
> And you never know; they have tried more than once to make a clone
> doweling machine like the Mafell. You would think at $1300-$1400
> someone could come up with something. Nope. The Frued was a
> miserable attempt, and pulled off the market after a short time.
> Makita had one, only in production for a short time. Triton still
> makes one that is around $200, but talking to users and reading
> reviews you are better off with something else. At one time I really
> wanted a doweling machine because back in the 70s we were still using
> a fair amount of dowels in cabinet construction and some aspects of
> general wood working.
>
> So if they can't perfect a doweling machine that essentially drills
> two holes at the same time by a series of gears, using a fairly
> immovable set of holders and gears, how could they replicate the
> Domino? I have seen exploded views of the machine working and it is
> truly a precision instrument.

The problem with the doweling machine is that it can't adjust like the
Domino. The Domino allows you to make a slightly wider mortise so that
if the mating mortise does not align precisely that is not a problem.
In fact I pretty much never have exact fit mating mortises when there
are two or more Domino's to be used.

A doweling machine does not allow a wider hole/mortise for the dowel
therefore every dowel mortise/hole must be precisely mated.

I would not be surprised if the doweling machined did a great job but if
you needed 4 or more holes, user alignment may have become the issue.

I have never seen one, Marfell, up close so I might be way off base as
far as alignment goes. And for that matter there are plenty of doweling
jigs that probably are not much slower than using the machine.
Cutting mortises OTOH is a different story, compared with a mortiser the
Domino is probably 30 times faster, maybe more.


>
> I think the Domino won't see a viable competitor for years.

I think their patents probably protect them for now.

>
> Still trying to worm one into my business...
>
> Robert
>

On 3/16/2017 4:02 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/16/2017 1:35 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement. The
>>> Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places. The great news is that
>>> with another multi-tool equal in performance to the Fein, that
>>> means competition and competition mean lower prices and/or
>>> incentives for us, the buyers.
>
> Snip
>
>> Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling
>> the tool in order to make it look like you are getting more for your
>> money. I am fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE
>> sheet of sandpaper as an accessory when marketing. Worse, when
>> selling the bottom rung of their oscillating line, the sandpaper
>> accessory isn't even perforated for dust removal, it is just hook and
>> loop paper.
>>
>
> A little OT but maybe you remember. When I was much younger and looked
> thought the Sears catalog and specifically the mechanics tools sets. The
> number of pieces were listed. They always included the 20~30 hacksaw
> blades and the individual Allen wrenches in the total pieces. ;~)
>
Some things never change.
http://www.sears.com/search=tool%20set

On 4/16/2017 11:06 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Michael <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum in
>> the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile.
>> After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity and to
>> install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think about that.
>> That vanity is in there pretty good.
>>
>> Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
>> install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the oscillating
>> tool will be very helpful there as well.
>>
>> After that, I'm assuming it will come in handy in many other ways.
>>
>> So I'm really torn between tail/no tail.
>>
>> Mike
>
> Go with the tailed version and get your projects done. You can always
> buy a untailed version later, when you find one for a good price.
>
> Btw, oscillating tools tend to be much slower than circular saws. It's
> just their nature. Trying to cut an 8' board that usually takes a minute
> or two with a circular saw will take an hour or better with the
> oscillating saw, even with good technique. Just want to keep your
> expectations in line.
>
> Puckdropper
>

YES! the oscillating tool is not a replacement of a jig saw or circular
saw. It simply gets into tight areas that would other wise be almost
impossible to access. But it does this with sanding and grout removing
capabilities also. I use mine a lot to flush cut through Domino's that
reinforce my drawer joints.

On 3/19/2017 3:16 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
>> one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
>> the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
>> other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
>> it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
>> dinky Allen wrench.
>
> Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
> Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
> tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
> expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
> the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
> They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
> cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.
>
> Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
> have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
> engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
> surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
> that had to be an issue they realized in testing.
>
> I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
> blade slippage was the way the tool operated.
>
> Robert
>

I think I have had mine slip ONE time and it simply was not tightened
enough.
The fact that the blade oscillates probably cancels the tendency to
loosen, it tightens as much as it loosens.
I recall talking to a factory rep about the new lug design that was to
come out shortly. I wanted to know if I was going to want to wait. He
of course said no, but he said that I would not be losing any advantage.

I think that if slippage had been a concern that the competition would
not have come on so strongly when the patent for the non-lug model ran out.

On 3/17/2017 9:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/17/17 12:41 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>
>>>> It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your
>>>> area. I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on
>>>> their pegs from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the
>>>> expensive blades from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how
>>>> expensive are they? :-)
>>
>> As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new
>> Feins, for "any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter,
>> and for the //newest// top line model you can only use the Fein
>> blades.
>>
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> Did they change something?
> I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.
>
>

The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter.
I have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.

In article <91664aad-3b4b-4b6a-8566-
[email protected]>, nailshooter41
@aol.com says...
>
> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 8:18:15 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
> > >> The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
> > >> friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter. I
> > >> have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.
>
> > No lugs on mine, wanna trade? :-)
>
> Whoa... talk about an early model!! How old is that machine?
>
> I believe you never had a problem with it. Think about it, all your circular saws use friction fit, and unless you have a dirty bushing the blades never slip.
>
> OTOH, I thought the Fein machine started with the wavy pattern around the spindle hole, but no lugs. If it is these, I never saw any reason to change the configuration as I couldn't see how the blade could ever slip.
>
> goo.gl/F24sDF
>
> Robert

Nope. My Fein is flat as a pancake in those
areas. And the "adapter" is pretty much
worthless unless you weld it on.

And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in
one direction, the one in which (if the saw is
well designed) the friction tightens the bolt.
The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the
bolt, the other loosens it. After a while no
matter how much you tighten it, it comes loose.
Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
dinky Allen wrench.

The blades you link are for the SuperCut, not
the original MultiMaster.

In article <e01900d6-2090-4aea-906b-83cd6d29e7a9
@googlegroups.com>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in
> > one direction, the one in which (if the saw is
> > well designed) the friction tightens the bolt.
> > The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the
> > bolt, the other loosens it. After a while no
> > matter how much you tighten it, it comes loose.
> > Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
> > dinky Allen wrench.
>
> Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit. Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine. They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened, cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.
>
> Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely that had to be an issue they realized in testing.
>
> I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that blade slippage was the way the tool operated.
>
> Robert

Fein ultimately did recognize the issue and made
a half-hearted attempt at a retrofit for the
early tools--a little washer with four lugs on
one side to engage the blade and some carbide
grit on the other that was supposed to bite into
the platen (or whatever you call the part that
the blade is tightened against). Didn't work
very well because you couldn't tighten it enough
to get it to bite. Some people took a stick
welder to the thing--one of these days I'm going
to try that.

In article <0LmdnVRyEOR0DFPFnZ2dnUU7-
[email protected]>, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
says...
>
> On 3/19/2017 8:50 AM, Leon wrote:
> > On 3/19/2017 3:16 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>
> >>> And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
> >>> one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
> >>> the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
> >>> other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
> >>> it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
> >>> dinky Allen wrench.
> >>
> >> Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
> >> Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
> >> tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
> >> expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
> >> the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
> >> They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
> >> cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.
> >>
> >> Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
> >> have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
> >> engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
> >> surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
> >> that had to be an issue they realized in testing.
> >>
> >> I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
> >> blade slippage was the way the tool operated.
> >>
> >> Robert
> >>
> >
> > I think I have had mine slip ONE time and it simply was not tightened
> > enough.
> > The fact that the blade oscillates probably cancels the tendency to
> > loosen, it tightens as much as it loosens.
> > I recall talking to a factory rep about the new lug design that was to
> > come out shortly. I wanted to know if I was going to want to wait. He
> > of course said no, but he said that I would not be losing any advantage.
> >
> > I think that if slippage had been a concern that the competition would
> > not have come on so strongly when the patent for the non-lug model ran out.
>
> Just another thought on this. If your patent runs out you need to
> "improve" the design so that you will have an advantage over the soon to
> come competition. Had slippage been a serious problem I think they
> would have addressed it some where in the 20 years before the patent ran
> out.
> It is not unusual for a manufacturer to give in to a perceived need that
> the customer wants, more of a marketing thing.
>
> IIRC the time my blade loosened was when I had the blade turned a little
> left of the direct line of push, naturally the blade wanted to turn the
> attachment bolt in the loosening direction.
>
> But with simply pushing the tool in line with the direction that the
> blade is pointed, I have not has a loosening issue since.
>
> Also, and this may be the trick too, the rep that I spoke to indicated
> to not simply push the blade and tool straight into the work. He
> indicated to also use a slight back and forth motion to help clear the
> teeth. I did find that the tool cuts faster when using that motion.

You're either very lucky or have the muscles of
a gorilla if you've never had the blade on a
first generation Fein pop loose in the middle of
a cut.

On 3/16/2017 1:35 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement. The
>> Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places. The great news is that
>> with another multi-tool equal in performance to the Fein, that
>> means competition and competition mean lower prices and/or
>> incentives for us, the buyers.

Snip

> Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling
> the tool in order to make it look like you are getting more for your
> money. I am fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE
> sheet of sandpaper as an accessory when marketing. Worse, when
> selling the bottom rung of their oscillating line, the sandpaper
> accessory isn't even perforated for dust removal, it is just hook and
> loop paper.
>

A little OT but maybe you remember. When I was much younger and looked
thought the Sears catalog and specifically the mechanics tools sets. The
number of pieces were listed. They always included the 20~30 hacksaw
blades and the individual Allen wrenches in the total pieces. ;~)

On 3/16/2017 8:45 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/16/17 1:35 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement. The
>>> Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places. The great news is that
>>> with another multi-tool equal in performance to the Fein, that
>>> means competition and competition mean lower prices and/or
>>> incentives for us, the buyers.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> The comparison in price is tricky, and I just tossed that number out.
>> I will stick by my personal outlay since I bought it on CPO's Pres
>> day sale for $84 delivered.
>>
>> But there are shenanigans about in how the Fein is marketed. First,
>> Fein developed the new tooless design with Bosch, and all the new
>> tools from both manufacturers are using the 12 point "Starlock"
>> mount, "3d" blade mount system. The older, least expensive Fein
>> models on the market need an adapter purchased separately for the
>> tool in order to use what is becoming the new industry standard mount
>> for Fein and Bosch. Fein is abandoning their old wavy mount for the
>> new Starlock 12 point in the near future as they feel that they can
>> deliver better blades and accessories as the new blade capture device
>> is superior. Both Fein and Bosch claim better energy transfer with
>> the 12 point system, although the reviews I read didn't seem to find
>> anything different on the Fein tools from the old blade retention
>> system to the new. One needs to be aware that the Fein Starlock 3d
>> system of blade capture is NOT the same as the Bosch, as the Bosch is
>> still flat mounted and can use just about any blade without
>> adapters.
>>
>> Personally, like our ink jet printers, I have always thought that
>> Fein and company made their money from the blades and accessories,
>> not the tool. This was evident to me when they were selling the same
>> tool but as different models based on the start package of
>> accessories. I didn't bite on a Fein 30 years ago (although as stated
>> before, I wish I had)because of the blade cost. I could never choke
>> down the fact that a moderate quality oscillating blade that could be
>> ruined by touching a nail (no bi metal in those days) cost more than
>> twice what I paid for a good carbide saw blade for my job site table
>> saw. I am thinking now that Fein and Bosch have concocted a new blade
>> style that is easily patented, so if you want to use their tools, you
>> will eventually have to buy their blades. While some of the older
>> tools can use the Starlock blades with an adapter, Fein has already
>> released their first oscillator that uses ONLY Starlock blades.
>>
>> Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling
>> the tool in order to make it look like you are getting more for your
>> money. I am fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE
>> sheet of sandpaper as an accessory when marketing. Worse, when
>> selling the bottom rung of their oscillating line, the sandpaper
>> accessory isn't even perforated for dust removal, it is just hook and
>> loop paper.
>>
>> So yes, you can get a real Fein for under $200, but you have to be
>> careful when comparing as you almost have to set up a spreadsheet for
>> comparison these days.
>>
>> The Bosch I bought came with 5 real Bosch blades, a depth stop and a
>> sanding pad, (screw the sandpaper, it's .50 a sheet everywhere). The
>> closest competing setup from Fein is about $226 from Amazon. It has
>> 3 blades (I don't count a scraper as a blade since my old blades are
>> GREAT scrapers after sanding off the dull teeth). To kind of match
>> up to the Bosch, add in another $10 each or so for a couple of
>> blades, and then another $20 for the depth stop that came with the
>> Bosch (honestly, this is handy), and then the cost of the adapter to
>> enable you to use the non Starlock blades.
>>
>> It's tricky business.
>>
>> I do know that I can buy just about any blade and it will fit the
>> Bosch I just purchased. And since the new Bosch tools don't have the
>> 3d feature, there will be plenty of knock off blades and accessories
>> around. I don't want to fiddle with an adapter adapter bolt (as seen
>> on a Fein video) and don't want to have to drive to the local
>> Woodcraft to buy a $12 - $15 blade because I got caught short on a
>> job.
>>
>> One thing you noticed that was correct is that the price of the
>> everyday utility blades has gone down, even for real Bosch and Fein
>> blades. This go around, even the Fein 3d blades seem to average
>> about $10 or so for the standards 1 3/8" straight, medium tooth
>> carbon blades. Not bad.
>>
>> So I learned two things after reading your post and doing a bit more
>> research. First, I am completely confused as to what Fein is doing
>> to market their product, but I am glad I didn't bite on the 3d
>> Starlock system. I am thinking that 3d system (not well reviewed) is
>> just something more to sell. The Bosch uses the 12 point flat
>> blades and pretty much all other flat blade capture configurations
>> including the split back blades and the 8 pt lock blades. The flat 8
>> and 12 point lock system blades are available /everywhere/ and at all
>> manner of quality and price.
>>
>> The second thing is that at $85, I should have bought two. One for
>> the job, and one for me. Nuts.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your area.
> I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on their pegs
> from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the expensive blades
> from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how expensive are they? :-)

I have hit a few nails with the wood cutting blades. They wore out on
the first plunge. ;~( I had a lot of cutting to do and the bi-metal
blades just were not cutting fast enough, or so I thought. LOL
And that was when a 3 pack was north of $100.

On 4/17/2017 1:56 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:33:26 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>
> First, I am in the camp of using a tailed tool. BUT, I use mine on a job site and I cut and scrape a lot of stuff with it. When I go the Bosch mentioned in my mini review, I immediately used it to cut the bottoms off old, hard, 2x6s, hard pieces of yellow pine trim, baseboards, etc. I also used it for all manner of cutting for work inside a kitchen rehab. I get pissed off if I pick up a tool and it doesn't work at 100% capacity all the time. And since none of my crew guys own an oscillator, if it needs to charge that could mean down time. I have battery powered tools I use in the job (circular saw, recip saw, drills, hammer drills, etc.), but an oscillator isn't one of them.
>
> These are not saws. While they will saw, it is only one aspect of what they do. You should always use the right tool to do the job no matter what, and these are not made for continually sawing boards, plywood, etc. They are dandy trimmers, will plunge cut where your circular saw will not, can be used as "jamb saws", cabinet installation saws, etc. But these are not made for heavy duty sawing, sawing in straight lines, or any kind of large project work requiring a lot wood cutting.
>
> I do like my corded drills and haven't carried a tailed drill in years and years. Today's battery powered tools certainly have their place, and for light work like a small repair I have a battery powered set I take with me and don't break out anything corded.
>
>
>> I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backer board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.
>
> You need to replace the OSB. No doubt about it, your tile source is steering your right. 1) OSB has open ended strands that will attract moisture, and in a horizontal installation, this can cause delamination of the strand structure. Tile is usually mopped clean at least once in a while and the water will go into the tiny little micro cracks that you won't notice in your grout lines. The cracks are created from flexing of the substrate, failure of the grout to adhere PERFECTLY to the tile, movement of the foundation, and if on wood screeds, weather changes. 2) OSB will flex over time in heavy traffic. I have pulled up old carpet laid over OSB subfloor and you can see the grain is raised under the pathways to bathrooms, bedrooms, etc.from tiny bits of flexing every time someone walks on it. So it does delaminate some, regardless of any manufacturer's claims. Delamination causes the adhesive bonds to break, then the tiles move, the grout joint fails, etc. as above.
>>
>> The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.
>
> Make sure that you are installing the correct backer board. The backer that you have at your local big box may be for vertical use only, NOT to be used for foot traffic. Make sure you are getting the correct stuff, don't rely on the HD or Lowe's guys; go to a real tile outlet and if possible, talk to an installer.
>
> I found this on the net, and when we put in tile flooring, this is procedure we follow:
>
> (( 5 steps to a sound ceramic floor ))
>
> 1)Prepare a solid, squeak-free subfloor. One of the keys to a long-lasting tile installation is the underlying subfloor. ...
>
> 2) Get rid of the high ridges and sink the fasteners. ...
>
> 3) Embed the cement board in latex-modified thin-set mortar. ...
>
> 4) Tape the seams. ...
>
> 5) Lay the tile in thin-set.
>
> We have one more thing that I insist on personally, and that is before adhering the cement board (foot traffic, horizontal grade) to the plywood, I spray the plywood with a coating of PVC primer to close up the pores a bit on the plywood to make sure the adhesive gets a good bite. Plywood will draw out the moisture in the adhesive too quickly in some cases and will give a less than satisfactory bond. Besides... the latex primer is cheap, cheap insurance.
>
> I advise my clients that when laying tile over this configuration that their grout joints should not be more than 1/2". regardless of prep. Remember, grout is not a structural component, and the only function of the grout is to keep stuff from getting in between and under the tiles. Wide grout joints on a wood floor will definitely let go and separate from the tiles.
>
> Good luck on your project. Once you get it going, it won't be too bad if you follow the right steps. And if you follow them closely, your work will last as long as the tile does. With that in mind, don't buy cheap tile! Make sure you buy something that has a PEI rating or 3 or above so it will stand the wear and tear of furniture, kids, coffee tables, cleaning, etc.
>
> Hope you come back here and start a new thread and let all know you are doing with this! We all love work in progress threads.
>
> Robert
>


And there you have it. The final word. :~) Thank you Robert!

On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Snip

>>
>> I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two
>> bathrooms coming up, and these tools are made for
>> maintenance/repair/remodeling contractors. I saw this one at the low
>> price, and now I wish I had bought two! Still, even at $129 it is
>> well worth the money. Then of course, the elephant in the room if
>> you are looking for a multitool... compare the price of this tool to
>> the commensurate model Fein and look at the price difference. You
>> could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
> The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
> The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
> the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
> and/or incentives for us, the buyers.
>
>

ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
$35-$40 each!

On Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:47:09 -0700 (PDT), Michael
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.
>>
>> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
>>
>> I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases. It is a discontinued
>>
>> Robert
>
>So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?

I recommend the tail-less. I had a Dremel tailed twitcher before I
bought the Bosch tail-less. I haven't used the Dremel since.

On 3/19/2017 9:53 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <0LmdnVRyEOR0DFPFnZ2dnUU7-
> [email protected]>, lcb11211@swbelldotnet
> says...
>>
>> On 3/19/2017 8:50 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/19/2017 3:16 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
>>>>> one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
>>>>> the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
>>>>> other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
>>>>> it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
>>>>> dinky Allen wrench.
>>>>
>>>> Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
>>>> Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
>>>> tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
>>>> expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
>>>> the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
>>>> They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
>>>> cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.
>>>>
>>>> Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
>>>> have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
>>>> engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
>>>> surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
>>>> that had to be an issue they realized in testing.
>>>>
>>>> I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
>>>> blade slippage was the way the tool operated.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think I have had mine slip ONE time and it simply was not tightened
>>> enough.
>>> The fact that the blade oscillates probably cancels the tendency to
>>> loosen, it tightens as much as it loosens.
>>> I recall talking to a factory rep about the new lug design that was to
>>> come out shortly. I wanted to know if I was going to want to wait. He
>>> of course said no, but he said that I would not be losing any advantage.
>>>
>>> I think that if slippage had been a concern that the competition would
>>> not have come on so strongly when the patent for the non-lug model ran out.
>>
>> Just another thought on this. If your patent runs out you need to
>> "improve" the design so that you will have an advantage over the soon to
>> come competition. Had slippage been a serious problem I think they
>> would have addressed it some where in the 20 years before the patent ran
>> out.
>> It is not unusual for a manufacturer to give in to a perceived need that
>> the customer wants, more of a marketing thing.
>>
>> IIRC the time my blade loosened was when I had the blade turned a little
>> left of the direct line of push, naturally the blade wanted to turn the
>> attachment bolt in the loosening direction.
>>
>> But with simply pushing the tool in line with the direction that the
>> blade is pointed, I have not has a loosening issue since.
>>
>> Also, and this may be the trick too, the rep that I spoke to indicated
>> to not simply push the blade and tool straight into the work. He
>> indicated to also use a slight back and forth motion to help clear the
>> teeth. I did find that the tool cuts faster when using that motion.
>
> You're either very lucky or have the muscles of
> a gorilla if you've never had the blade on a
> first generation Fein pop loose in the middle of
> a cut.
>

I tighten enough that the tool, if it stopped in the left extreme of
travel, upside down, will turn to the right extreme direction when
tightening. And as I stated earlier pushing in line with the length of
the cutting attachment is very helpful. If the tool is right side up
and the blade is pointed right of center and you push in line with tool,
not the blade, the blade can loosen. In that case you need to push with
you hand on the head directly behind and in line with the cutter. And
as I mentioned before, a talk with the rep ironed out several issues.

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
=20
> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
> The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
> The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to=20
> the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices=20
> and/or incentives for us, the buyers.

Thanks!

The comparison in price is tricky, and I just tossed that number out. I wil=
l stick by my personal outlay since I bought it on CPO's Pres day sale for =
$84 delivered.

But there are shenanigans about in how the Fein is marketed. First, Fein d=
eveloped the new tooless design with Bosch, and all the new tools from both=
manufacturers are using the 12 point "Starlock" mount, "3d" blade mount sy=
stem. The older, least expensive Fein models on the market need an adapter=
purchased separately for the tool in order to use what is becoming the new=
industry standard mount for Fein and Bosch. Fein is abandoning their old =
wavy mount for the new Starlock 12 point in the near future as they feel th=
at they can deliver better blades and accessories as the new blade capture =
device is superior. Both Fein and Bosch claim better energy transfer with =
the 12 point system, although the reviews I read didn't seem to find anythi=
ng different on the Fein tools from =20
the old blade retention system to the new. One needs to be aware that the =
Fein Starlock 3d system of blade capture is NOT the same as the Bosch, as t=
he Bosch is still flat mounted and can use just about any blade without ada=
pters.

Personally, like our ink jet printers, I have always thought that Fein and =
company made their money from the blades and accessories, not the tool. Th=
is was evident to me when they were selling the same tool but as different =
models based on the start package of accessories. I didn't bite on a Fein 3=
0 years ago (although as stated before, I wish I had)because of the blade c=
ost. I could never choke down the fact that a moderate quality oscillating=
blade that could be ruined by touching a nail (no bi metal in those days) =
cost more than twice what I paid for a good carbide saw blade for my job si=
te table saw. I am thinking now that Fein and Bosch have concocted a new bl=
ade style that is easily patented, so if you want to use their tools, you w=
ill eventually have to buy their blades. While some of the older tools can=
use the Starlock blades with an adapter, Fein has already released their f=
irst oscillator that uses ONLY Starlock blades.

Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling the to=
ol in order to make it look like you are getting more for your money. I am=
fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE sheet of sandpaper as =
an accessory when marketing. Worse, when selling the bottom rung of their =
oscillating line, the sandpaper accessory isn't even perforated for dust re=
moval, it is just hook and loop paper.

So yes, you can get a real Fein for under $200, but you have to be careful =
when comparing as you almost have to set up a spreadsheet for comparison th=
ese days.

The Bosch I bought came with 5 real Bosch blades, a depth stop and a sandin=
g pad, (screw the sandpaper, it's .50 a sheet everywhere). The closest comp=
eting setup from Fein is about $226 from Amazon. It has 3 blades (I don't =
count a scraper as a blade since my old blades are GREAT scrapers after san=
ding off the dull teeth). To kind of match up to the Bosch, add in another=
$10 each or so for a couple of blades, and then another $20 for the depth =
stop that came with the Bosch (honestly, this is handy), and then the cost =
of the adapter to enable you to use the non Starlock blades.

It's tricky business.

I do know that I can buy just about any blade and it will fit the Bosch I j=
ust purchased. And since the new Bosch tools don't have the 3d feature, th=
ere will be plenty of knock off blades and accessories around. I don't want=
to fiddle with an adapter adapter bolt (as seen on a Fein video) and don't=
want to have to drive to the local Woodcraft to buy a $12 - $15 blade beca=
use I got caught short on a job.

One thing you noticed that was correct is that the price of the everyday ut=
ility blades has gone down, even for real Bosch and Fein blades. This go a=
round, even the Fein 3d blades seem to average about $10 or so for the stan=
dards 1 3/8" straight, medium tooth carbon blades. Not bad.

So I learned two things after reading your post and doing a bit more resear=
ch. First, I am completely confused as to what Fein is doing to market thei=
r product, but I am glad I didn't bite on the 3d Starlock system. I am thin=
king that 3d system (not well reviewed) is just something more to sell. Th=
e Bosch uses the 12 point flat blades and pretty much all other flat blade =
capture configurations including the split back blades and the 8 pt lock bl=
ades. The flat 8 and 12 point lock system blades are available /everywhere=
/ and at all manner of quality and price.

The second thing is that at $85, I should have bought two. One for the job=
, and one for me. Nuts.

Robert

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
=20
> And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in=20
> one direction, the one in which (if the saw is=20
> well designed) the friction tightens the bolt. =20
> The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the=20
> bolt, the other loosens it. After a while no=20
> matter how much you tighten it, it comes loose. =20
> Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little=20
> dinky Allen wrench.

Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit. Trul=
y, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the tool would e=
ver work for more than the lightest applications. I expect my multi tools t=
o be able to cut everything on the job without the blade coming loose, and =
even the cheap HFs do that just fine. They have crudely cut lugs (8) that =
hold the blades using a hardened, cupped washer held in place by a hex head=
screw.

Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I have to s=
hake my head with wonder that all the heralded German engineering couldn't =
solve the problem of slick blade retainage surfaces /before/ the tool was f=
irst released decades ago. Surely that had to be an issue they realized in=
testing.
=20
I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that blade slip=
page was the way the tool operated.

Robert

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.
>
> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
>
> I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases. It is a discontinued
>
> Robert

So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?

Thanks,

Mike

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 11:08:50 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 4/16/17 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:

> >
> > My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum
> > in the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and
> > tile. After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity
> > and to install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think
> > about that. That vanity is in there pretty good.
> >
>=20
> Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing and
> reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled under it.
>=20
> Is there a reason you're taking out the OSB? If it's sound, there's no
> reason to. As for backer board, you may want to look into Schluter
> products. It's now carried at most home Depots.
>=20
>=20
> > Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
> > install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the
> > oscillating tool will be very helpful there as well.
>=20
> Front room? Is this a living room or part of the bathroom. There's no
> need for cement board under tile that won't be subjected to constant
> moisture. All you need is to decouple the mortar from the wood
> subfloor. That can be done old-school with simple tar-paper, or using
> more modern sheet products.

Mike,

I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backer bo=
ard. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. I wo=
uld prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will prev=
ent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.

The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. I ha=
d plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board, th=
en tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.

Thanks,

Mike

On 2017-03-16, Just Wondering <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 3/16/2017 4:02 PM, Leon wrote:


>> A little OT but maybe you remember. When I was much younger and looked
>> thought the Sears catalog and specifically the mechanics tools sets. The
>> number of pieces were listed. They always included the 20~30 hacksaw
>> blades and the individual Allen wrenches in the total pieces. ;~)

> Some things never change.

It's still better than having those sets "back ordered" then sent, one
piece at a time, at min shipping fees. IOW, a complete shipping order
fer each piece of a set. That's how Cooper Tools usta do it.

Infuriating! ;)

nb

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:09:53 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/16/2017 11:18 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> On 3/16/2017 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>
>>> Snip
>>
>>
>> [snip again]
>>
>>>> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
>>>> The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
>>>> The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
>>>> the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
>>>> and/or incentives for us, the buyers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
>>> $35-$40 each!
>>
>>
>> Pretty much unanimous on the value of these multi-tools. I've had the
>> Bosch cordless unit for probably 6 years now and the only fault I've
>> found is that I didn't buy one 20 years ago!
>
>Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years ago
>and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent expired about
>10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless units that others
>were able to compete.
>
>It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones in 10
>or so years.
>
Or SawStop clones in two or three years. ;-)
>
>>
>> One of the handiest tools in my collection. Any time I head out to do a
>> job at one of the kid's homes, it goes with me. Doesn't matter the job,
>> 7 out of 10 times SOMETHING will crop up that this thing will cure easily.
>>
>>

On 16/03/2017 7:06 @wiz, [email protected] wrote:
> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its
> hype.
>
> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
>


I've found this thing invaluable in fitting doors and locks for security
screens in my place. So much easier to get those weird angles and cuts!
Very easy to control and
The slow and smooth start is the best for the use I make of it.
Had mine for quite a few years now, not sure if it is still available
here in Australia.

On 3/16/17 3:06 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its
> hype.
>
> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
>
> I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their
> President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch
> promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with
> some other purchases. It is a discontinued tool, but since the new
> tool replacing this one isn't really much different, when this one
> was marked down they sold so many they raised the start price back up
> to $149. They still have the Bosch discount on the tool, though so
> you can get there for $129.
>
> It was nicknamed the "Fein killer" in an interview or two, and I can
> see why. It is a well made tool (mine in Switzerland)and is a very
> well thought out machine. It has plenty of power, a long cord of
> 13', soft start, variable speed, and tooless blade change. The bag
> is very sturdy, the bag holds the tool with velcro hold downs, and an
> accessory box that comes with really useful blades, sandpaper and
> sandpaper attachment, and a depth stop gauge. In other words, the
> tool is ready to go to work.
>
> So off it went to a job with a lot of wood repair, then to a front
> door remove and replace. I cut incredibly hard 2x6 pressurized
> boards on a garage jambs and did some miscellaneous sanding on one
> job. Then cut a ton of old trim to accomodate the larger trim picked
> out by the home owner as well as cut out worn and damaged trim to
> replace it. I did it all with the same blade, and the Bosch blades
> are pretty expensive but they did hold up well. The machine was
> flawless and worked well. When cutting the 2x6s, it never got hot,
> there was no real vibration, and there was plenty of power at medium
> speed. The slower than normal speed kept me from burning up the
> blade as it kept the heat down.
>
> When I was cutting the old trims away, it was easy to control and I
> really came to appreciate the slow start. I also used it to cut the
> 2x4 shims off that I used to hang the new metal door. My particular
> method of door hanging requires me to use a lot of shims, and this
> one was no different. I cut them out of 2x4 on site, and usually put
> about 20 shims per door in place. After securing the shims (wedges,
> really) I flush cut them to the jamb. Still on the same blade at
> this point. So I tried another test. Took the 15ga trim nailer and
> shot through a piece of trim so the nails came out the other side.
> Took the 18ga nailer and did the same thing. Plugged in the saw, and
> buzzed through all the nails with no problems, cutting them flush in
> a few seconds with the bi metal blade I had been using all along.
> There is plenty of life left on the blade, even now.
>
> I compare this tool to the equivalent Fein, and to me this one wins
> hands down. It SEEMS that is isn't as noisy as the Fein. It does
> have less vibration, and I like the tooless blade change on this one
> a bit better. The cord has this interesting ball joint gizmo where
> it goes into the machine that is supposed to keep the wear down, and
> it does a great job of keeping the strain down. This has a 12 point
> grip on the saw blades, the Fein has 8. In practice, I don't know
> how important that is, but if it is like lugs on a truck tire, I will
> take 12 over 8. I like the heavy duty nylon bag much more than the
> Fein's big plastic case as it is much, much smaller. The tool has a
> lower speed and then kicks up higher than the commensurate Fein
> model. Don't know that it means much on the top end, but the slower
> speeds are something I like on this type of tool.
>
> Power and amperage are about the same, as are the cutting
> capabilities. Until this tool came along I couldn't imagine a better
> oscillator than the Fein. I tried a couple of others (Ridgid,
> DeWalt, HF) and the Fein was head and hands above them in performance
> and tool build. After some horse trading, I was took two back and
> stuck with the HF. Loud, rattly, and a bit under powered, the HF has
> been on the job for a few years and it did what it was supposed to
> do, for a princely $15.
>
> I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two
> bathrooms coming up, and these tools are made for
> maintenance/repair/remodeling contractors. I saw this one at the low
> price, and now I wish I had bought two! Still, even at $129 it is
> well worth the money. Then of course, the elephant in the room if
> you are looking for a multitool... compare the price of this tool to
> the commensurate model Fein and look at the price difference. You
> could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!
>
> Robert
>

Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
and/or incentives for us, the buyers.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/16/17 1:35 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 9:10:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement. The
>> Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places. The great news is that
>> with another multi-tool equal in performance to the Fein, that
>> means competition and competition mean lower prices and/or
>> incentives for us, the buyers.
>
> Thanks!
>
> The comparison in price is tricky, and I just tossed that number out.
> I will stick by my personal outlay since I bought it on CPO's Pres
> day sale for $84 delivered.
>
> But there are shenanigans about in how the Fein is marketed. First,
> Fein developed the new tooless design with Bosch, and all the new
> tools from both manufacturers are using the 12 point "Starlock"
> mount, "3d" blade mount system. The older, least expensive Fein
> models on the market need an adapter purchased separately for the
> tool in order to use what is becoming the new industry standard mount
> for Fein and Bosch. Fein is abandoning their old wavy mount for the
> new Starlock 12 point in the near future as they feel that they can
> deliver better blades and accessories as the new blade capture device
> is superior. Both Fein and Bosch claim better energy transfer with
> the 12 point system, although the reviews I read didn't seem to find
> anything different on the Fein tools from the old blade retention
> system to the new. One needs to be aware that the Fein Starlock 3d
> system of blade capture is NOT the same as the Bosch, as the Bosch is
> still flat mounted and can use just about any blade without
> adapters.
>
> Personally, like our ink jet printers, I have always thought that
> Fein and company made their money from the blades and accessories,
> not the tool. This was evident to me when they were selling the same
> tool but as different models based on the start package of
> accessories. I didn't bite on a Fein 30 years ago (although as stated
> before, I wish I had)because of the blade cost. I could never choke
> down the fact that a moderate quality oscillating blade that could be
> ruined by touching a nail (no bi metal in those days) cost more than
> twice what I paid for a good carbide saw blade for my job site table
> saw. I am thinking now that Fein and Bosch have concocted a new blade
> style that is easily patented, so if you want to use their tools, you
> will eventually have to buy their blades. While some of the older
> tools can use the Starlock blades with an adapter, Fein has already
> released their first oscillator that uses ONLY Starlock blades.
>
> Also, (this is cheesy to me) they count the accessories when selling
> the tool in order to make it look like you are getting more for your
> money. I am fine with that, except that they count (1), yes ONE
> sheet of sandpaper as an accessory when marketing. Worse, when
> selling the bottom rung of their oscillating line, the sandpaper
> accessory isn't even perforated for dust removal, it is just hook and
> loop paper.
>
> So yes, you can get a real Fein for under $200, but you have to be
> careful when comparing as you almost have to set up a spreadsheet for
> comparison these days.
>
> The Bosch I bought came with 5 real Bosch blades, a depth stop and a
> sanding pad, (screw the sandpaper, it's .50 a sheet everywhere). The
> closest competing setup from Fein is about $226 from Amazon. It has
> 3 blades (I don't count a scraper as a blade since my old blades are
> GREAT scrapers after sanding off the dull teeth). To kind of match
> up to the Bosch, add in another $10 each or so for a couple of
> blades, and then another $20 for the depth stop that came with the
> Bosch (honestly, this is handy), and then the cost of the adapter to
> enable you to use the non Starlock blades.
>
> It's tricky business.
>
> I do know that I can buy just about any blade and it will fit the
> Bosch I just purchased. And since the new Bosch tools don't have the
> 3d feature, there will be plenty of knock off blades and accessories
> around. I don't want to fiddle with an adapter adapter bolt (as seen
> on a Fein video) and don't want to have to drive to the local
> Woodcraft to buy a $12 - $15 blade because I got caught short on a
> job.
>
> One thing you noticed that was correct is that the price of the
> everyday utility blades has gone down, even for real Bosch and Fein
> blades. This go around, even the Fein 3d blades seem to average
> about $10 or so for the standards 1 3/8" straight, medium tooth
> carbon blades. Not bad.
>
> So I learned two things after reading your post and doing a bit more
> research. First, I am completely confused as to what Fein is doing
> to market their product, but I am glad I didn't bite on the 3d
> Starlock system. I am thinking that 3d system (not well reviewed) is
> just something more to sell. The Bosch uses the 12 point flat
> blades and pretty much all other flat blade capture configurations
> including the split back blades and the 8 pt lock blades. The flat 8
> and 12 point lock system blades are available /everywhere/ and at all
> manner of quality and price.
>
> The second thing is that at $85, I should have bought two. One for
> the job, and one for me. Nuts.
>
> Robert
>

It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your area.
I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on their pegs
from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the expensive blades
from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how expensive are they? :-)

Like I said, it's a really good thing that there are at least two
really high quality multi-tools from which to choose.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/17/17 12:41 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
>>> It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your
>>> area. I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on
>>> their pegs from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the
>>> expensive blades from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how
>>> expensive are they? :-)
>
> As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new
> Feins, for "any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter,
> and for the //newest// top line model you can only use the Fein
> blades.
>
>
> Robert
>

Did they change something?
I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/17/17 9:51 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/17/2017 9:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 3/17/17 12:41 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 11:14:15 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It may also have a lot to do with what is available in your
>>>>> area. I like that I can walk into HOD or Lowes and any blade on
>>>>> their pegs from any manufacturer will fit on my Fein. FWIW, the
>>>>> expensive blades from Fein just don't seem to wear out. So how
>>>>> expensive are they? :-)
>>>
>>> As well as with the Bosch. However, as pointed out, on the new
>>> Feins, for "any" blade to fit you will need a $25 two piece adapter,
>>> and for the //newest// top line model you can only use the Fein
>>> blades.
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>
>> Did they change something?
>> I've only had mine for a couple years and I can use all the other blades.
>>
>>
>
> The older Fein's blades mounted like a circular saw blade, strictly
> friction fit, no lugs. If you want the non slip you need the adapter. I
> have not found the non lugs to be an issue however.

My Fein has the splines on the mount and all its blades have the slots.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/17/17 6:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:24:28 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> Did they change something? I've only had mine for a couple years
>> and I can use all the other blades.
>
> Mike, yes they have. Since a picture is worth a thousand words, and
> a well written review is worth about that much, check it out. This
> is a well written article, and the comments at the bottom certainly
> reflect my feelings. Is this a solution to a problem that didn't
> exist? Is this a marketing ploy?
>
> http://toolguyd.com/bosch-fein-starlock-oscillating-multi-tool-interface-preview/
>
> It has a drawing, and then a picture of the "3d system" blades with
> the large concave cap that looks like an old beer bottle cap.
>
> Here is a look at the various adapters for he new Starlock, including
> one from Festool. I would be PISSED OFF beyond reason to have a $500
> - $650 Festool multitool only to find that to use certain blades I
> will need to buy something else, a frickin' adapter for a tool that
> worked great as designed.
>
> From what I have read, Bosch CLAIMS that their new offering will
> still use any blade out there with the tool as purchased, no adapter
> required. Fein on the other hand makes no bones about it, you need
> the adapter to use the old style blades with their new system. Note
> too, they do mention in the review/article that there is speculation
> that the new blade configuration is nothing more than a market
> gimmick.
>
> Regardless of Bosch/Fein's claim that they will lock up better (no
> empirical evidence presented or found by me) and that they will
> reduce multitool injuries (huh?), I don't believe it.
>
> It is obvious that these guys want back in the blade business.
> Repeat buyers of consumables are what make some of these tools
> profitable beyond their actual utility. I think that Fein has made
> that clear with their now "top line" model that will not use any
> blades except their new configuration. Now that the folks on the
> Pacific Rim have mastered their multi tool blade/accessory
> manufacturing I almost never buy the Fein/Bosch blades, or anyone
> else's. I have bought a bunch of these, and at $1.75 each they kill
> it.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Cibtek-Oscillating-Multitool-Multimaster-Craftsman/dp/B00YG84DJ6
>
> When I got my first batch, I put them on a tool, and cut through 10
> nails I shot into a board for testing purposes. Barely showed any
> wear. Cut through a couple of yellow pine 2x6s, then through another
> 5 nails. As with all bi metals, the smaller teeth can make it a
> challenge to cut wood, but these worked as well as expected. After
> all that, the blade still had a lot of life left in it. Knowing that
> I could cut through sheet rock and into a 16 gauge plumbing shield,
> rip down the length of a nail that was used for a previous repair
> (like an 8d), cut downwards through a sole plate and nick concrete,
> and all the other stuff that happens to these blades during
> blind/plunge cuts, why would I spend $10 a piece when they could be
> ruined in a few seconds?
>
> The only blades that beat them out on the job, and I wouldn't want to
> live on the difference, is the Bosch or Fein. DeWalt, Dremel, HF,
> Lowe's (Blue Hawk) are OK to awful in quality. Besides, if I am going
> to spend that much for blades, I am going to the top of the chain for
> an extra couple of bucks.
>
> BTW, lots of Youtube chatter about the Starlock system, some like it,
> some don't, like most, they use these tools once or twice a month (if
> at all), but the ones I watched don't consider the cost of
> consumables as part of tool ownership and cost to own. Saving $7 -
> $8 a blade or more can easily put you in the range of buying other
> tools you might need.
>
> I guess this blade change business pisses me off as I have lost money
> on it in the past. I had industrial rated circular saws that I spent
> a /lot/ of money on that had diamond arbors. Remember the diamond
> knockouts on the saw blades? Seen one lately? The new blades
> without the knockout were cheaper and easier to make, and rendered
> the knockout obsolete, even though it was vastly superior at holding
> blades. Likewise, same deal on recip saws. Bought two saws that
> used blades that had an extra indexing and hold down notch stamped
> into the blade. They quit making the saw blades with the notch in
> them, so the new blades (as we have now) wouldn't work as the peg in
> the saw chuck wouldn't allow the blade to sit flat when tightened.
> Had the same thing happen to my larger jig saw with an old Bosch I
> bought. I had to use Bosch blades as they had a slightly thicker
> shaft. An old Rockwell that was in the tool box for a while used the
> same blades. Then they started with "T" blades, and simply quit
> making the blades those saws used.
>
> Each time these changes came about I was left holding tools that
> represented a good sized investment that were useless after blades
> stocks ran out.
>
> I think that with the millions of multi tools of all sorts (including
> Fein!) that use the old system, blades and secondary market blades
> will continue to be available. Not too worried, but still pissed off
> at myself for buying into tools that used only proprietary
> consumables. Never again.
>
> Robert
>

My Fein has what looks like the starlock mount.
I guess I have a newer one.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/17 1:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:50:08 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> My Fein has what looks like the starlock mount. I guess I have a
>> newer one.
>
> If you bought on or around late May of 2016, then it might be a
> Starlock. It would be marked as a Starlock machine.
>
> If you can pick up a blade with the bottle cap top without touching
> the release/lock lever like this
>
> http://www.kelvinpowertools.com/blog/blog/new-bosch-fein-starlock-system
>
> you have a Starlock.
>
> If your blades look like a bottle cap at the mounting head of the
> spindle like this
>
> https://fein.com/en_us/starlock/
>
> you have Starlock machine.
>
> Robert
>

Ok, now I get it. Well according to that page and what I see on the
blades, they still fit my Fein. I just have to use two hands. The
tool-less, quick fit lever on my Fein is certainly light years ahead of
the old wrench method.

That new system certainly is slick, but it's certainly not enough to
make me covet it or go trading in any time soon.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/18/17 10:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/18/17 1:50 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Friday, March 17, 2017 at 9:50:08 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>>> My Fein has what looks like the starlock mount. I guess I have a
>>> newer one.
>>
>> If you bought on or around late May of 2016, then it might be a
>> Starlock. It would be marked as a Starlock machine.
>>
>> If you can pick up a blade with the bottle cap top without
>> touching the release/lock lever like this
>>
>> http://www.kelvinpowertools.com/blog/blog/new-bosch-fein-starlock-system
>>
>>
>>
you have a Starlock.
>>
>> If your blades look like a bottle cap at the mounting head of the
>> spindle like this
>>
>> https://fein.com/en_us/starlock/
>>
>> you have Starlock machine.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> Ok, now I get it. Well according to that page and what I see on the
> blades, they still fit my Fein. I just have to use two hands. The
> tool-less, quick fit lever on my Fein is certainly light years ahead
> of the old wrench method.
>
> That new system certainly is slick, but it's certainly not enough to
> make me covet it or go trading in any time soon.
>

I do think it's thick in irony that they came out with a new "standard"
blade to fit all multitools but there's still 3 different kinds. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/19/17 3:16 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 3:52:48 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> And yes, it is a problem. Circular saws turn in one direction, the
>> one in which (if the saw is well designed) the friction tightens
>> the bolt. The Fein oscillates, one direction tightens the bolt, the
>> other loosens it. After a while no matter how much you tighten it,
>> it comes loose. Doesn't help that it's tightened with a little
>> dinky Allen wrench.
>
> Never knew that the early Feins had nothing more than a friction fit.
> Truly, that doesn't make any sense, and I can't figure out how the
> tool would ever work for more than the lightest applications. I
> expect my multi tools to be able to cut everything on the job without
> the blade coming loose, and even the cheap HFs do that just fine.
> They have crudely cut lugs (8) that hold the blades using a hardened,
> cupped washer held in place by a hex head screw.
>
> Knowing that Fein was (is?) the undisputed king of oscillators, I
> have to shake my head with wonder that all the heralded German
> engineering couldn't solve the problem of slick blade retainage
> surfaces /before/ the tool was first released decades ago. Surely
> that had to be an issue they realized in testing.
>
> I guess with nothing to compare it to, it was just accepted that
> blade slippage was the way the tool operated.
>
> Robert
>

Believe it or not, my HF tool did *not* have those lugs and it rarely
loosened.
I know HF added them at some point, but I have the model without.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 4/16/17 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:
> On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 10:20:58 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 4/16/2017 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me
>>>> personally the only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the
>>>> option, are drills.
>>>
>>> Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer
>>> constant and full power. But I am wondering if people most often
>>> prefer the mobility of a drill when they use their oscillating
>>> tool.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>
>> Drill aside, the decision maker for me is where you use it. I
>> don't use the oscillating tool that often and when I do, it is 90%
>> in the shop, 10% in my own house and yes, we have electricity in
>> the house.
>>
>> If I was often using it a job sites I'd go battery.
>
> My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the linoleum
> in the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and
> tile. After much consultation,I've decided not to take out the vanity
> and to install tile around it. I'd be curious what others think
> about that. That vanity is in there pretty good.
>

Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing and
reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled under it.

Is there a reason you're taking out the OSB? If it's sound, there's no
reason to. As for backer board, you may want to look into Schluter
products. It's now carried at most home Depots.


> Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room and
> install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the
> oscillating tool will be very helpful there as well.

Front room? Is this a living room or part of the bathroom. There's no
need for cement board under tile that won't be subjected to constant
moisture. All you need is to decouple the mortar from the wood
subfloor. That can be done old-school with simple tar-paper, or using
more modern sheet products.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 4/17/17 12:33 AM, Michael wrote:
> On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 11:08:50 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 4/16/17 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:
>
>>>
>>> My first use is to help me take out the OSB from under the
>>> linoleum in the bathroom before I install 3/4 plywood, backer
>>> board, and tile. After much consultation,I've decided not to
>>> take out the vanity and to install tile around it. I'd be curious
>>> what others think about that. That vanity is in there pretty
>>> good.
>>>
>>
>> Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing
>> and reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled
>> under it.
>>
>> Is there a reason you're taking out the OSB? If it's sound,
>> there's no reason to. As for backer board, you may want to look
>> into Schluter products. It's now carried at most home Depots.
>>
>>
>>> Next I'm going to take out the carpet and OSB in the front room
>>> and install 3/4 plywood, backer board, and tile. I assume the
>>> oscillating tool will be very helpful there as well.
>>
>> Front room? Is this a living room or part of the bathroom. There's
>> no need for cement board under tile that won't be subjected to
>> constant moisture. All you need is to decouple the mortar from the
>> wood subfloor. That can be done old-school with simple tar-paper,
>> or using more modern sheet products.
>
> Mike,
>
> I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a
> backer board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in
> 3/4 plywood. I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of
> course, but if it will prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.
>
> The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over
> OSB. I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and
> backer board, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how
> to do it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>

They "whys" are as important as the "hows."
There are newer technologies available that can save you a a lot of
work, possibly money, and which may do a better job than what has always
been used.

I'm just saying make sure the conditions that require doing what they
are telling you to do actually exist in your situation.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 4/17/17 11:45 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>
>> I'm sure Robert has a better answer but tiling under the vanity
>> makes it easier for the next "re-do" I build my own vanities so I
>> simply build them the same size or larger. BUT if you are re
>> tiling it is not that much more trouble to cover the whole floor.
>
> Nope. I like that one!
>
> There is only one instance where I don't pull toilet and vanity, and
> that is when it is a "landlord" job, where my client wants the work
> done as cheaply as possible. Otherwise, I agree that it is best to
> pull the work. Be aware that if you don't pull the cabinet, you can
> have some screwy looking effects depending on the thickness of your
> tile, the adhesive, the board, etc. that can creep up about an inch
> depending on what you do.
>
> I pull the cabs, baseboards and toilets for a better, cleaner
> install. I don't like a funky look to it where you can feel the
> cabinet height is off when you are washing your hands, the
> baseboards look short, and the toilet is now part of a permanent
> install from being grouted in. Besides, when you pull
> <<everything>>, the tile job in a bath is a snap! A lot fewer cuts
> and plenty of room to work on the floor instead of wedging yourself
> in there to work. When you start your work, remember to take the
> entry door off the hinges as well for the duration of the job to get
> that out of your way, too. It is surprising how much faster and how
> much better a job turns out when access is easy.
>
> And as Leon said, building your own vanities has its place. If you
> are aspiring to do some cabinetry, the bath is a great place to
> start. A simple carcass style constructed cabinet can be quite
> satisfying to build, and can give you enough cabinet experience to
> be proud of yourself. A good carcass, nice facing, well fitted
> doors and a drawer bank is a nice size, doable project.
>
> Be aware that if you pull the cabinet you will need to take that new
> oscillating tool and raise the holes for your plumbing in the
> cabinet back the corresponding amount of your tile/substrate
> thickness. Likewise, you will need to reset the top as it is no doubt
> caulked in at the edges, and may need to reset a mirror.
>
> When you do a project like this, think like a contractor. Imagine
> yourself walking into the bathroom and thinking, "what would be my
> very first thing to do?", make yourself a list of all the tasks
> needed, form a time line, and then a final list of organization and
> schedule. With that, you will leave out almost nothing, you can
> always tell what needs to be done next, and where you are time-wise
> in the project when your significant other says, "OK, tell me again
> how much longer until I can use this bathroom again".
>
> Robert
>

I retract my previous statement about not pulling the vanity.
Like you, I was thinking about the "landlord" type of job.
I forgot how annoying it is the see the shrunken toe kick and weird trim
transitions around cabinets like that.

I have to see some pretty horrendous trim/tile awkwardness every day in
my own home due to previous owners who fancied themselves "flippers"
after watching to many HGTV shows. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 4/16/2017 10:42 AM, Michael wrote:

>>
>> Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
>> only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.
>
> Same here. I have tried a cordless circular saw, but I prefer constant and full power. But I am wondering if people most often prefer the mobility of a drill when they use their oscillating tool.
>
> Mike
>

Drill aside, the decision maker for me is where you use it. I don't use
the oscillating tool that often and when I do, it is 90% in the shop,
10% in my own house and yes, we have electricity in the house.

If I was often using it a job sites I'd go battery.

On 17 Apr 2017 05:24:45 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> Nothing wrong with that. No need to create extra work by removing and
>> reinstalling the same vanity just so you can say you tiled under it.
>*snip*
>
>It sure wouldn't hurt to buy a couple extra boxes of tile and store them
>somewhere safe. That way, if you need to get a new vanity with a different
>foot print you'll have the tile available to fill in the gaps.

And "filling the gaps" looks like the hack it is.
>
>10 years down the road, there's a great chance your tile won't be available
>anywhere.

You won't be able to match the grout, either, so best just bite the
bullet and tile under the damned thing. Tiling is a lot of work, it's
not that much more work to pull a vanity and really saves the work of
cutting little pieces around it, to say nothing of the added planning
complications.

On 3/16/2017 11:18 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 3/16/2017 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/16/2017 9:10 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>> Snip
>
>
> [snip again]
>
>>> Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
>>> The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
>>> The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
>>> the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
>>> and/or incentives for us, the buyers.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ALso the big advantage to the competition is that blades are no longer
>> $35-$40 each!
>
>
> Pretty much unanimous on the value of these multi-tools. I've had the
> Bosch cordless unit for probably 6 years now and the only fault I've
> found is that I didn't buy one 20 years ago!

Take heard in knowing that Fein was the only of its kind 20 years ago
and it was very expensive. It was not until Fein's patent expired about
10 years ago and they switched over to the toolless units that others
were able to compete.

It will be interesting to see who all comes out with Domino clones in 10
or so years.



>
> One of the handiest tools in my collection. Any time I head out to do a
> job at one of the kid's homes, it goes with me. Doesn't matter the job,
> 7 out of 10 times SOMETHING will crop up that this thing will cure easily.
>
>

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 06:08:14 -0500, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:

>Michael <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:06:09 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>>> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its hype.
>>>
>>> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
>>>
>>> I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their President's
>>> day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch promotion, it was
>>> somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with some other purchases.
>>> It is a discontinued
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> So after much thought I am ready to buy the Bosch. My question: tail or no tail?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
>I would ask the question, are you likely going to use the tool enough to
>wear it out in the next 5-6 years.
>If not I would suggest getting the tailed one. Manufacturers are
>notorious for changing battery design and you may end up with a tool that
>you may not be able to find replacement batteries for. And i have not see
>a battery rebuild place that rebuilds Lithium Ion.

I would have reversed that completely. If you're using it so much
that you'll wear it out in a short time, buy a Fein or green, tailed
tool. You'll probably kill a lot batteries in this time. I've had my
Bosch for close to ten years (probably eight) and they're still making
the same batteries. OTOH, it's provably time they change. ;-)
>
>Corded will likely out last a battery powered. For me personally the
>only cordless tools that I buy, then I have the option, are drills.

I like cordless tools that I don't use for hours at a time. For quick
jobs, you can't beat cordless. They're also better for tools you may
be using at odd angles (drills, and small saws).

All of your flashlights have power cords? ;-)

On 4/17/2017 9:28 AM, Michael wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 1:56:19 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 12:33:26 AM UTC-5, Michael wrote:
>>
>> First, I am in the camp of using a tailed tool. BUT, I use mine on a job site and I cut and scrape a lot of stuff with it. When I go the Bosch mentioned in my mini review, I immediately used it to cut the bottoms off old, hard, 2x6s, hard pieces of yellow pine trim, baseboards, etc. I also used it for all manner of cutting for work inside a kitchen rehab. I get pissed off if I pick up a tool and it doesn't work at 100% capacity all the time. And since none of my crew guys own an oscillator, if it needs to charge that could mean down time. I have battery powered tools I use in the job (circular saw, recip saw, drills, hammer drills, etc.), but an oscillator isn't one of them.
>>
>> These are not saws. While they will saw, it is only one aspect of what they do. You should always use the right tool to do the job no matter what, and these are not made for continually sawing boards, plywood, etc. They are dandy trimmers, will plunge cut where your circular saw will not, can be used as "jamb saws", cabinet installation saws, etc. But these are not made for heavy duty sawing, sawing in straight lines, or any kind of large project work requiring a lot wood cutting.
>>
>> I do like my corded drills and haven't carried a tailed drill in years and years. Today's battery powered tools certainly have their place, and for light work like a small repair I have a battery powered set I take with me and don't break out anything corded.
>>
>>
>>> I've asked the tile store people and others about using OSB and a backer board. They all insisted that I take out the OSB and put in 3/4 plywood. I would prefer to put cement board over the OSB, of course, but if it will prevent failure, then I'll replace the OSB.
>>
>> You need to replace the OSB. No doubt about it, your tile source is steering your right. 1) OSB has open ended strands that will attract moisture, and in a horizontal installation, this can cause delamination of the strand structure. Tile is usually mopped clean at least once in a while and the water will go into the tiny little micro cracks that you won't notice in your grout lines. The cracks are created from flexing of the substrate, failure of the grout to adhere PERFECTLY to the tile, movement of the foundation, and if on wood screeds, weather changes. 2) OSB will flex over time in heavy traffic. I have pulled up old carpet laid over OSB subfloor and you can see the grain is raised under the pathways to bathrooms, bedrooms, etc.from tiny bits of flexing every time someone walks on it. So it does delaminate some, regardless of any manufacturer's claims. Delamination causes the adhesive bonds to break, then the tiles move, the grout joint fails, etc. as above.
>>>
>>> The front room is the living room. It's currently has carpet over OSB. I had plan to take out the OSB and replace it with plywood and backer board, then tile. Again, that's because I'm told that's how to do it.
>>
>> Make sure that you are installing the correct backer board. The backer that you have at your local big box may be for vertical use only, NOT to be used for foot traffic. Make sure you are getting the correct stuff, don't rely on the HD or Lowe's guys; go to a real tile outlet and if possible, talk to an installer.
>>
>> I found this on the net, and when we put in tile flooring, this is procedure we follow:
>>
>> (( 5 steps to a sound ceramic floor ))
>>
>> 1)Prepare a solid, squeak-free subfloor. One of the keys to a long-lasting tile installation is the underlying subfloor. ...
>>
>> 2) Get rid of the high ridges and sink the fasteners. ...
>>
>> 3) Embed the cement board in latex-modified thin-set mortar. ...
>>
>> 4) Tape the seams. ...
>>
>> 5) Lay the tile in thin-set.
>>
>> We have one more thing that I insist on personally, and that is before adhering the cement board (foot traffic, horizontal grade) to the plywood, I spray the plywood with a coating of PVC primer to close up the pores a bit on the plywood to make sure the adhesive gets a good bite. Plywood will draw out the moisture in the adhesive too quickly in some cases and will give a less than satisfactory bond. Besides... the latex primer is cheap, cheap insurance.
>>
>> I advise my clients that when laying tile over this configuration that their grout joints should not be more than 1/2". regardless of prep. Remember, grout is not a structural component, and the only function of the grout is to keep stuff from getting in between and under the tiles. Wide grout joints on a wood floor will definitely let go and separate from the tiles.
>>
>> Good luck on your project. Once you get it going, it won't be too bad if you follow the right steps. And if you follow them closely, your work will last as long as the tile does. With that in mind, don't buy cheap tile! Make sure you buy something that has a PEI rating or 3 or above so it will stand the wear and tear of furniture, kids, coffee tables, cleaning, etc.
>>
>> Hope you come back here and start a new thread and let all know you are doing with this! We all love work in progress threads.
>>
>> Robert
>
> Thanks, Robert! What are your thoughts on removing the vanity in the bathroom to tile underneath? I'm inclined not to do it, but I'm really on the fence.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>


I'm sure Robert has a better answer but tiling under the vanity makes it
easier for the next "re-do" I build my own vanities so I simply build
them the same size or larger. BUT if you are re tiling it is not that
much more trouble to cover the whole floor.

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:10:10 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 3/16/17 3:06 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> This is just a quick look at a new tool I bought that lives up to its
>> hype.
>>
>> http://www.cpooutlets.com/bosch-mx30ec-31-multi-x-3-0-amp-oscillating-tool-kit-with-31-accessories/bshnmx30ec-31,default,pd.html
>>
>> I bought this about a month ago at CPO when they had their
>> President's day sale. With their sale prices and the Bosch
>> promotion, it was somewhere in the mid $80 range to the door with
>> some other purchases. It is a discontinued tool, but since the new
>> tool replacing this one isn't really much different, when this one
>> was marked down they sold so many they raised the start price back up
>> to $149. They still have the Bosch discount on the tool, though so
>> you can get there for $129.
>>
>> It was nicknamed the "Fein killer" in an interview or two, and I can
>> see why. It is a well made tool (mine in Switzerland)and is a very
>> well thought out machine. It has plenty of power, a long cord of
>> 13', soft start, variable speed, and tooless blade change. The bag
>> is very sturdy, the bag holds the tool with velcro hold downs, and an
>> accessory box that comes with really useful blades, sandpaper and
>> sandpaper attachment, and a depth stop gauge. In other words, the
>> tool is ready to go to work.
>>
>> So off it went to a job with a lot of wood repair, then to a front
>> door remove and replace. I cut incredibly hard 2x6 pressurized
>> boards on a garage jambs and did some miscellaneous sanding on one
>> job. Then cut a ton of old trim to accomodate the larger trim picked
>> out by the home owner as well as cut out worn and damaged trim to
>> replace it. I did it all with the same blade, and the Bosch blades
>> are pretty expensive but they did hold up well. The machine was
>> flawless and worked well. When cutting the 2x6s, it never got hot,
>> there was no real vibration, and there was plenty of power at medium
>> speed. The slower than normal speed kept me from burning up the
>> blade as it kept the heat down.
>>
>> When I was cutting the old trims away, it was easy to control and I
>> really came to appreciate the slow start. I also used it to cut the
>> 2x4 shims off that I used to hang the new metal door. My particular
>> method of door hanging requires me to use a lot of shims, and this
>> one was no different. I cut them out of 2x4 on site, and usually put
>> about 20 shims per door in place. After securing the shims (wedges,
>> really) I flush cut them to the jamb. Still on the same blade at
>> this point. So I tried another test. Took the 15ga trim nailer and
>> shot through a piece of trim so the nails came out the other side.
>> Took the 18ga nailer and did the same thing. Plugged in the saw, and
>> buzzed through all the nails with no problems, cutting them flush in
>> a few seconds with the bi metal blade I had been using all along.
>> There is plenty of life left on the blade, even now.
>>
>> I compare this tool to the equivalent Fein, and to me this one wins
>> hands down. It SEEMS that is isn't as noisy as the Fein. It does
>> have less vibration, and I like the tooless blade change on this one
>> a bit better. The cord has this interesting ball joint gizmo where
>> it goes into the machine that is supposed to keep the wear down, and
>> it does a great job of keeping the strain down. This has a 12 point
>> grip on the saw blades, the Fein has 8. In practice, I don't know
>> how important that is, but if it is like lugs on a truck tire, I will
>> take 12 over 8. I like the heavy duty nylon bag much more than the
>> Fein's big plastic case as it is much, much smaller. The tool has a
>> lower speed and then kicks up higher than the commensurate Fein
>> model. Don't know that it means much on the top end, but the slower
>> speeds are something I like on this type of tool.
>>
>> Power and amperage are about the same, as are the cutting
>> capabilities. Until this tool came along I couldn't imagine a better
>> oscillator than the Fein. I tried a couple of others (Ridgid,
>> DeWalt, HF) and the Fein was head and hands above them in performance
>> and tool build. After some horse trading, I was took two back and
>> stuck with the HF. Loud, rattly, and a bit under powered, the HF has
>> been on the job for a few years and it did what it was supposed to
>> do, for a princely $15.
>>
>> I wanted a better oscillator as I have a full kitchen and two
>> bathrooms coming up, and these tools are made for
>> maintenance/repair/remodeling contractors. I saw this one at the low
>> price, and now I wish I had bought two! Still, even at $129 it is
>> well worth the money. Then of course, the elephant in the room if
>> you are looking for a multitool... compare the price of this tool to
>> the commensurate model Fein and look at the price difference. You
>> could almost buy 3 of these for the cost of the Fein!
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
>Great review! The only issue I have is the last statement.
>The Fein can be had for $150-199 at many places.
>The great news is that with another multi-tool equal in performance to
>the Fein, that means competition and competition mean lower prices
>and/or incentives for us, the buyers.

I have both the Bosch cordless and Dremel corded multi-tools. I like
'em both but if I didn't have the Dremel, at the current prices, I'd
probably have bought the Fein. I used one for a little while at a
Woodcraft demo and *really* liked it.