Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita,
and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently or will soon be available
in Europe.
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44fae992-d105-457c-9235-2401e618684d.aspx
Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
On Feb 5, 6:56=A0pm, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 5:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita=
,
> > and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently =A0or will soon be avail=
able
> > in Europe.
>
> >http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>
> > Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
>
> Dunno, but all the Festools I have are made in Germany.
My MILWAUKEE jigsaw is made in Germany. Go figgur. So is my Ridgid
2610 6" sander.
Leon wrote:
> Absolutely and IMHO the Festool may be $100 or so over priced. Oddly the
> Festool drills come with really low amp hour rated batteries and nove are
> lithium yet. IIRC 1.2 amp is common. I have never actually tried one of
> their drills and that may be what I would have to do to understand the
> pricing but watching the rep demo the drill I saw no immediate bebefit over
> what I am using.
The C12 at least is available with 1.3, 2.4, or 3.0 Ah batteries.
Some other nice touches...
It uses an electronically controlled 3-phase motor. From people that
have used them, this gives way more torque at low speeds, with no
brushes to change.
The power to the motor doesn't actually flow through the forward/reverse
switch, unlike most regular drills. In fact the forward/reverse lever
just moves a magnet that gets detected by a solid state sensor.
The drill monitors the battery and will shut down when the battery gets
too low to prevent battery damage.
When using torque control the clutch will slip only up to half a
revolution and then shut down automatically.
Plus all those funky attachements..
I'm trained as an engineer and this drill appeals to my sense of
elegance. I'd love to get one, but I don't have $400 to drop on a
cordless drill no matter how good it is.
Chris
On Feb 6, 7:42 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I really did not know that Fein sold a drill. Is it cordless?
http://tinyurl.com/22qyhr
They make a few models.
They seem to be pretty well reviewed in different spots, but I don't
seem to be able to find anyone that actually uses one. This is a
question of curiosity, I am not running out to buy one today.
***************
OK,. just off the phone with Amazon.com's live information line.
Sombitch. After a lot of hemming and hawing, they confirmed that the
drills are made in China. He went on further to say that most of the
Fein products were these days, except the Multimaster.
I would never have suspected.
I guess that's why you can buy 2 of the Fein brand cordless drill
(literally) for the price of a similar Festool drill.
If I were going to buy a Chinese tool I would go to HD and get a
Ridgid (for $60 less) so I could get their warranty. I have had good
luck with the Taiwanese tools, not so much so with the Chinese stuff.
So for me, if I am buying a Chinese drill, I want the best warranty
possible.
If I had shelled out the dough for the Fein, even if the drill was top
flight, I would have really been pissed to think I had bought another
Chinese tool. I could do that anywhere.
Robert
Leon wrote:
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>On Feb 5, 5:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita,
>>>and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently or will soon be
>>>available
>>>in Europe.
>>>
>>>http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>>>
>>>Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
>>
>>Dunno, but all the Festools I have are made in Germany.
>
>
>
> Mine too and that is why I did not include German tools in the test market
> question.
> But back to my question I wonder why Europe is the market that the Japanese
> and US tool makers are going with first. One would think that PC and DeWalt
> would at least start out here. ;~(
>
>
Price might have something to do with it...
Example:
Dewalt DW934 18v Cordless Metal Cutting Circular Saw
US price - $150
UK price - £211 or $416 USD
http://www.amazon.com/Dewalt-DW934-Cordless-Cutting-Circular/dp/B000EMUFP4
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dewalt-Dw934-18Volt-Metal-Carcass/dp/B0009VX2VY
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
Could it be that the European countries have caps on lawsuits, encase
something is a bad design.
--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita,
> and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently or will soon be available
> in Europe.
>
> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44fae992-d105-457c-9235-2401e618684d.aspx
>
> Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
>
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Feb 5, 6:56 pm, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 5:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt,
> > Makita,
> > and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently or will soon be
> > available
> > in Europe.
>
> >http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>
> > Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
>
> Dunno, but all the Festools I have are made in Germany.
My MILWAUKEE jigsaw is made in Germany. Go figgur. So is my Ridgid
2610 6" sander.
Bought a set of Bosch 18V tools a while back. Two Swiss, one Mexico, one
China .... Open markets.
I'd probably test things that could hurt people in Europe too, given the
lawyer/user ratio.
On Feb 12, 3:30=A0am, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> O(nce again - late to a thread
>
> Couple of things to note
>
> 1. =A0The Euro equivalent of OSHA does not permit "blind cuts" - in
> =A0 =A0 =A0table saws - so no dado blades - euro table saws won't hold the=
m.
> =A0 =A0 =A0Routers do the job safer
>
> 2. =A0The Euro plunge saws, probably developed by Festool, isn't
> =A0 =A0 =A0designed nor intended to be used by a stick frame carpenter.
> =A0 =A0 =A0It is intended for working with sheet goods. Festool made it
> =A0 =A0 =A0a part of a portable, integrated, woodworking system which
> =A0 =A0 =A0can be used in a small shop - AND - on site.
>
> The Festool plunge saw will cut at a desired line -whether the
> blade is at 90s or 45 degrees. =A0It has built in "zero clearance"
> which minimizes or eliminates tear out where the saw teeth
> come up out of the sheet goods. =A0It has pretty precise depth
> of cut setting that's reproducable and easily seen reference
> lines for starting and stopping a cut.
>
> One of the major woodworking tools and techniques for Euros
> came about at the end of WW II. =A0Europe was pretty torn up
> - manufacturing devastated, the supply of solid wood quite
> limited and a huge demand for basic household furniture
> - mainly cabinets to put things in. =A0So a bright fellow came
> up with "manufactured wood products" which used the
> readily available wood debris. =A0Skilled woodworkers were in
> very short supply - war not being particularly good for males
> between 16 and 70. =A0So a bright German came up with a
> system of cabinet making that could use task specific
> tools and jigs (that didn't require the large capital investment
> that mass production required) to make up for the lack of
> skilled craftsmen.
>
> We, in the U.S. have been playing with woodworking tools
> and machines that, for the most part, are basically
> the same as they were 50 plus years ago - machine
> green being replaced by Platinum White, and brand
> colors - for plastic parts. =A0And while we were getting
> Tried And True - the Europeans have been innovating.
> The fact that riving knives are finally showing up on
> tables saw, and riving knives will start showing up
> on these plunge saws, seem to indicate that US
> "manufacturers" (actually distributors of foreign
> made products) that are FINALLY getting the message
> - catch up or watch your market share disappear.
>
> Tired - sleep required. =A0End of message
>
> charlie b
> - the 32 mm System
Great post
Mark
On Feb 5, 6:38=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 5:55=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita=
,
> > and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently =A0or will soon be avail=
able
> > in Europe.
>
> >http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>
> > Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
>
> Oooooooo...ouch... try saying that over there...
Looking at everything from TV sitcoms, to auto innovations, to
innovations in homebuilding, home design, water and space heating,
cooling, front load washers, low flush toilets, right down to cabinet
hinges and drawer slides, I would say its somewhat the other way
around. Though we are not the guinea pigs, we are usually just way
behind the pace. I think the majority are simply resistant to change.
When I apprenticed in the trade the most common sentiment was "this is
the way I do it, because this is the way I have always done it". That
mentality leaves little to no room for innovation which is always
possible no matter how long you have done something. I can count
dozens of innovations, which are now mainstream, that when brought to
the US market from Europe were met with anything from complete
skepticism to shear distain.
I would bet most mfr's would tell you a saws like these, regardless of
how they perform, have an immediate hurdle to get over just because
they "look" different. While thats likely not the case in this NG the
masses are where the profits are.
Mark
O(nce again - late to a thread
Couple of things to note
1. The Euro equivalent of OSHA does not permit "blind cuts" - in
table saws - so no dado blades - euro table saws won't hold them.
Routers do the job safer
2. The Euro plunge saws, probably developed by Festool, isn't
designed nor intended to be used by a stick frame carpenter.
It is intended for working with sheet goods. Festool made it
a part of a portable, integrated, woodworking system which
can be used in a small shop - AND - on site.
The Festool plunge saw will cut at a desired line -whether the
blade is at 90s or 45 degrees. It has built in "zero clearance"
which minimizes or eliminates tear out where the saw teeth
come up out of the sheet goods. It has pretty precise depth
of cut setting that's reproducable and easily seen reference
lines for starting and stopping a cut.
One of the major woodworking tools and techniques for Euros
came about at the end of WW II. Europe was pretty torn up
- manufacturing devastated, the supply of solid wood quite
limited and a huge demand for basic household furniture
- mainly cabinets to put things in. So a bright fellow came
up with "manufactured wood products" which used the
readily available wood debris. Skilled woodworkers were in
very short supply - war not being particularly good for males
between 16 and 70. So a bright German came up with a
system of cabinet making that could use task specific
tools and jigs (that didn't require the large capital investment
that mass production required) to make up for the lack of
skilled craftsmen.
We, in the U.S. have been playing with woodworking tools
and machines that, for the most part, are basically
the same as they were 50 plus years ago - machine
green being replaced by Platinum White, and brand
colors - for plastic parts. And while we were getting
Tried And True - the Europeans have been innovating.
The fact that riving knives are finally showing up on
tables saw, and riving knives will start showing up
on these plunge saws, seem to indicate that US
"manufacturers" (actually distributors of foreign
made products) that are FINALLY getting the message
- catch up or watch your market share disappear.
Tired - sleep required. End of message
charlie b
- the 32 mm System
On Feb 5, 5:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>
> Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
I thought the writer offered a more interesting question for this blog
"Is this saw strictly for plywood and sheet goods? Or, can you see
using this set-up for all your circular-saw needs. "
Awfully expensive for the occaisonal plywood cut, no?
On Feb 6, 8:11 am, Charlie Self <[email protected]> wrote:
> What does it say on the tool?
I thought about that, and realized that the Authorized dealer didn't
have any real reason to lie. Really, who would proclaim their tools
are proudly made in China?
No one in town stocks any Fein product except Woodcraft, and I knew
better than to call them. They only stock the Multimaster in limited
quantities with all accessories being special order.
See above for my phone call to Amazon. Indeed, made in China.
Robert
On Feb 5, 5:55=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita,
> and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently =A0or will soon be availab=
le
> in Europe.
>
> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>
> Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
Oooooooo...ouch... try saying that over there...
"asmurff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Could it be that the European countries have caps on lawsuits, encase
> something is a bad design.
I guess that could certainly be a valid reason. But, as pointed out by
another post this saw design may be better suited to the European style of
woodworking.
On Feb 5, 7:27 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On Feb 5, 5:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita,
> >> and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently or will soon be
> >> available
> >> in Europe.
>
> >>http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>
> >> Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
>
> > Dunno, but all the Festools I have are made in Germany.
>
> Mine too and that is why I did not include German tools in the test market
> question.
> But back to my question I wonder why Europe is the market that the Japanese
> and US tool makers are going with first. One would think that PC and DeWalt
> would at least start out here. ;~(
You're losing me. You include Festool, but not German tools?
On Feb 6, 10:52 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well thank you Chris for pointing out those features! CRAP! Now I will
> more seriously consider this drill when the time comes.
Well, to help stoke this fire a little while I am doing my paperwork,
check this out to see if this can help you decide how much money you
need to put aside:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/festool-drills
You should know though, that a couple of years ago there was (yet
another "shootout") a fairly comprehensive test in one of the ww mags
and the Festool was no more than middle of the pack. The winner was
the Bosch "Brute" line with its heavy case and the amount of screws
driven. It only slightly edged out the newer line of Ridgid that came
out with the 15 minute recharge batteries and lifetime case warranty.
Robert
On Feb 5, 5:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita,
> and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently or will soon be available
> in Europe.
>
> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>
> Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
Dunno, but all the Festools I have are made in Germany.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:19f4574f-4ca4-406b-bbc5-c452a0af1370@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 6, 7:42 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I really did not know that Fein sold a drill. Is it cordless?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/22qyhr
>
> They make a few models.
>
> They seem to be pretty well reviewed in different spots, but I don't
> seem to be able to find anyone that actually uses one. This is a
> question of curiosity, I am not running out to buy one today.
I looked at their site and only found corded although I did not dig deep.
>
> ***************
>
> OK,. just off the phone with Amazon.com's live information line.
> Sombitch. After a lot of hemming and hawing, they confirmed that the
> drills are made in China. He went on further to say that most of the
> Fein products were these days, except the Multimaster.
>
> I would never have suspected.
Hummm and yet their tools are still pretty highly priced. Food for thought.
>
> I guess that's why you can buy 2 of the Fein brand cordless drill
> (literally) for the price of a similar Festool drill.
Absolutely and IMHO the Festool may be $100 or so over priced. Oddly the
Festool drills come with really low amp hour rated batteries and nove are
lithium yet. IIRC 1.2 amp is common. I have never actually tried one of
their drills and that may be what I would have to do to understand the
pricing but watching the rep demo the drill I saw no immediate bebefit over
what I am using.
>
> If I were going to buy a Chinese tool I would go to HD and get a
> Ridgid (for $60 less) so I could get their warranty. I have had good
> luck with the Taiwanese tools, not so much so with the Chinese stuff.
> So for me, if I am buying a Chinese drill, I want the best warranty
> possible.
Absolutely
> If I had shelled out the dough for the Fein, even if the drill was top
> flight, I would have really been pissed to think I had bought another
> Chinese tool. I could do that anywhere.
Yeah you could do better for less money.
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Feb 5, 7:27 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > On Feb 5, 5:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt,
>> >> Makita,
>> >> and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently or will soon be
>> >> available
>> >> in Europe.
>>
>> >>http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>>
>> >> Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
>>
>> > Dunno, but all the Festools I have are made in Germany.
>>
>> Mine too and that is why I did not include German tools in the test
>> market
>> question.
>> But back to my question I wonder why Europe is the market that the
>> Japanese
>> and US tool makers are going with first. One would think that PC and
>> DeWalt
>> would at least start out here. ;~(
>
> You're losing me. You include Festool, but not German tools?
I meant that I was only considering the brands and plunge saws that I
mentioned regardless of country origin.
I included Festool in the original opening paragraph but only mentioned
Japanese and US brand tools using Europe as the guinea pig for their new
products.
IIRC the Festool plunge saw was in Europe before it was here in the US but
the US and Japanese plunge saws are being introduced in Europe before the
US.
I was wondering why the US branded and Japanese tools were not presented in
the US before Europe.
BDB Construction may have answered that question with the explanation that
perhaps these saws would be better received in the European market over the
US market.
"Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Feb 5, 5:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>>
>> Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
>
> I thought the writer offered a more interesting question for this blog
> "Is this saw strictly for plywood and sheet goods? Or, can you see
> using this set-up for all your circular-saw needs. "
>
> Awfully expensive for the occaisonal plywood cut, no?
I think perhaps a bargain for the person that does handy man repairs and or
a wood worker just starting out. Certainly cheaper than a decent TS and
probably produces better results than a similarly priced TS on sheet goods.
For the framer, I don't think so. For the reasons I previously mentioned
add the question, how many framers are going to use 2 hands to plunge the
saw to cut a 2x when on a job site?
IMHO this saw is targeting the cabinet builder and coupled with the work
table that Festool sells the combination will do just about anything except
cut dado's.
"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The C12 at least is available with 1.3, 2.4, or 3.0 Ah batteries.
>
> Some other nice touches...
>
> It uses an electronically controlled 3-phase motor. From people that have
> used them, this gives way more torque at low speeds, with no brushes to
> change.
>
> The power to the motor doesn't actually flow through the forward/reverse
> switch, unlike most regular drills. In fact the forward/reverse lever
> just moves a magnet that gets detected by a solid state sensor.
>
> The drill monitors the battery and will shut down when the battery gets
> too low to prevent battery damage.
>
> When using torque control the clutch will slip only up to half a
> revolution and then shut down automatically.
>
> Plus all those funky attachements..
>
>
> I'm trained as an engineer and this drill appeals to my sense of elegance.
> I'd love to get one, but I don't have $400 to drop on a cordless drill no
> matter how good it is.
>
> Chris
Well thank you Chris for pointing out those features! CRAP! Now I will
more seriously consider this drill when the time comes.
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Feb 5, 5:55 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Here is a link to an article detailing the newer Festool, DeWalt, Makita,
>> and Porter Cable Plunge saws that are currently or will soon be
>> available
>> in Europe.
>>
>> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com:80/editorsblog/PermaLink,guid,44f...
>>
>> Is Europe the guinea pig for Japanese and US brand tools?
>
> Dunno, but all the Festools I have are made in Germany.
Mine too and that is why I did not include German tools in the test market
question.
But back to my question I wonder why Europe is the market that the Japanese
and US tool makers are going with first. One would think that PC and DeWalt
would at least start out here. ;~(
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
My MILWAUKEE jigsaw is made in Germany. Go figgur. So is my Ridgid
2610 6" sander.
IIRC the Milwaukee Jig saws were manufactured by AEG, a German company.
Mine is also, however I wonder if the newer models are still made in
Germany.
"BDBConstruction" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:45ae9559-4c40-4a80-84df-40848b9e59b7@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Looking at everything from TV sitcoms, to auto innovations, to
innovations in homebuilding, home design, water and space heating,
cooling, front load washers, low flush toilets, right down to cabinet
hinges and drawer slides, I would say its somewhat the other way
around. Though we are not the guinea pigs, we are usually just way
behind the pace. I think the majority are simply resistant to change.
Wow Mark, I believe you probably hit the nail on the head.
When I apprenticed in the trade the most common sentiment was "this is
the way I do it, because this is the way I have always done it". That
mentality leaves little to no room for innovation which is always
possible no matter how long you have done something. I can count
dozens of innovations, which are now mainstream, that when brought to
the US market from Europe were met with anything from complete
skepticism to shear distain.
Ummmm like the SawStop for instance and it originated here but many did not
like it for one reason or the other.
In harmony with your view I was wondering what market these saws would be
going after. Surely not framers in the construction industry as I doubt
that these saws with their plunge mechanisms and riving knives and precise
alignment adjustments would not remain in good working order when being
tossed in the back of the truck. The old PC miter saw with the laser did
not fair well in the field and adjustment problems were the reason that it
failed. I suppose the new construction cabinet builder would benefit from
these saws if it would eleminate having to set up the TS on the job site,
but you are going to have to attract a special kind of cabinet builder.
On Feb 5, 8:34=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "BDBConstruction" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:45ae9559-4c40-4a80-84df-40848b9e59b7@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Looking at everything from TV sitcoms, to auto innovations, to
> innovations in homebuilding, home design, water and space heating,
> cooling, front load washers, low flush toilets, right down to cabinet
> hinges and drawer slides, I would say its somewhat the other way
> around. Though we are not the guinea pigs, we are usually just way
> behind the pace. I think the majority are simply resistant to change.
>
> Wow Mark, I believe you probably hit the nail on the head.
>
> When I apprenticed in the trade the most common sentiment was "this is
> the way I do it, because this is the way I have always done it". That
> mentality leaves little to no room for innovation which is always
> possible no matter how long you have done something. I can count
> dozens of innovations, which are now mainstream, that when brought to
> the US market from Europe were met with anything from complete
> skepticism to shear distain.
>
> Ummmm like the SawStop for instance and it originated here but many did no=
t
> like it for one reason or the other.
> In harmony with your view I was wondering what market these saws would be
> going after. =A0Surely not framers in the construction industry as I doubt=
> that these saws with their plunge mechanisms and riving knives and precise=
> alignment adjustments would not remain in good working order when being
> tossed in the back of the truck. =A0The old PC miter saw with the laser di=
d
> not fair well in the field and adjustment problems were the reason that it=
> failed. =A0I suppose the new construction cabinet builder would benefit fr=
om
> these saws if it would eleminate having to set up the TS on the job site,
> but you are going to have to attract a special kind of cabinet builder.
Yeah, I agree. Though the Dewalt shows the saw on a roof cutting
sheathing and in a framing application. Without seeing them and
reading reviews/testing it would be hard to say if one would stand up
to the riggors of an average job site and maintaining accuracy while
seeing abuse may be impossible. I have had the Festool in my hands
many times and while I think I would treat it nicely mainly due to the
cost I didnt inherantly feel like it wouldnt take some abuse. That
said, I highly doubt I would take it up on a roof. I could personally
find dozens, if not several dozen, uses for it on a job. I see it for
what it is, a great innovation.
I personally thought the sawstop was long overdue and applauded it. I
think the markets for that saw are endless from high school and trade
school shop classes, to most every jobsite out there with paid
employees, namely their employers comp claims, on and on. I wouldnt be
surprised if one day it becomes an option on all saws.
I definately dont mean to say the US lacks innovation it just seems to
me that many are too often creatures of habit and resist change.
Personally I am just the opposite. I usually try to resist routine and
habit in life and work. Habit and routine spawns stagnation, I always
say.
Mark
On Feb 6, 3:43 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:59 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > IIRC the Milwaukee Jig saws were manufactured by AEG, a German company.
> > Mine is also, however I wonder if the newer models are still made in
> > Germany.
>
> Leon and Robatoy, I just saw in interesting comment in another venue.
> I found a new in the box 18v Fein drill for about $140, new, in the
> case, with two batteries, a 15 minute charger and warranty. This was
> in a couple of places, not just one. Although it is a great price for
> the drill, Fein drills seem to be a little cheaper than their Euro
> counterparts.
>
> When I asked why the drill was so cheap compared to the other Fein
> tool offerings, the reply was "Simple. These drills are now made in
> China". I don't know this guy from Adam but he claims to be an
> authorized Fein distributor. And he may be as full of crap as the
> Thanksgiving turkey. I thought Fein was Euro only.
>
> Any thoughts? Leon? r?
>
What does it say on the tool?
On Feb 5, 9:05=A0pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 8:34=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "BDBConstruction" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:45ae9559-4c40-4a80-84df-40848b9e59b7@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...=
>
> > Looking at everything from TV sitcoms, to auto innovations, to
> > innovations in homebuilding, home design, water and space heating,
> > cooling, front load washers, low flush toilets, right down to cabinet
> > hinges and drawer slides, I would say its somewhat the other way
> > around. Though we are not the guinea pigs, we are usually just way
> > behind the pace. I think the majority are simply resistant to change.
>
> > Wow Mark, I believe you probably hit the nail on the head.
>
> > When I apprenticed in the trade the most common sentiment was "this is
> > the way I do it, because this is the way I have always done it". That
> > mentality leaves little to no room for innovation which is always
> > possible no matter how long you have done something. I can count
> > dozens of innovations, which are now mainstream, that when brought to
> > the US market from Europe were met with anything from complete
> > skepticism to shear distain.
>
> > Ummmm like the SawStop for instance and it originated here but many did =
not
> > like it for one reason or the other.
> > In harmony with your view I was wondering what market these saws would b=
e
> > going after. =A0Surely not framers in the construction industry as I dou=
bt
> > that these saws with their plunge mechanisms and riving knives and preci=
se
> > alignment adjustments would not remain in good working order when being
> > tossed in the back of the truck. =A0The old PC miter saw with the laser =
did
> > not fair well in the field and adjustment problems were the reason that =
it
> > failed. =A0I suppose the new construction cabinet builder would benefit =
from
> > these saws if it would eleminate having to set up the TS on the job site=
,
> > but you are going to have to attract a special kind of cabinet builder.
>
> Yeah, I agree. Though the Dewalt shows the saw on a roof cutting
> sheathing and in a framing application. Without seeing them and
> reading reviews/testing it would be hard to say if one would stand up
> to the riggors of an average job site and maintaining accuracy while
> seeing abuse may be impossible. I have had the Festool in my hands
> many times and while I think I would treat it nicely mainly due to the
> cost I didnt inherantly feel like it wouldnt take some abuse. That
> said, I highly doubt I would take it up on a roof. I could personally
> find dozens, if not several dozen, uses for it on a job. I see it for
> what it is, a great innovation.
>
> I personally thought the sawstop was long overdue and applauded it. I
> think the markets for that saw are endless from high school and trade
> school shop classes, to most every jobsite out there with paid
> employees, namely their employers comp claims, on and on. I wouldnt be
> surprised if one day it becomes an option on all saws.
>
> I definately dont mean to say the US lacks innovation it just seems to
> me that many are too often creatures of habit and resist change.
> Personally I am just the opposite. I usually try to resist routine and
> habit in life and work. Habit and routine spawns stagnation, I always
> say.
>
> Mark- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I thought the design had something to do with European style tools and
space limitations. In the first case, don't they use a sliding top
table saw design? They may not be used to our standard circular saw.
In the second case, most woodworkers don't have a lot of shop space so
a saw like this would lend itself to under mounting on a table. Anyone
out there with first hand experience?
Regards,
Dave
On Feb 5, 9:59 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> IIRC the Milwaukee Jig saws were manufactured by AEG, a German company.
> Mine is also, however I wonder if the newer models are still made in
> Germany.
Leon and Robatoy, I just saw in interesting comment in another venue.
I found a new in the box 18v Fein drill for about $140, new, in the
case, with two batteries, a 15 minute charger and warranty. This was
in a couple of places, not just one. Although it is a great price for
the drill, Fein drills seem to be a little cheaper than their Euro
counterparts.
When I asked why the drill was so cheap compared to the other Fein
tool offerings, the reply was "Simple. These drills are now made in
China". I don't know this guy from Adam but he claims to be an
authorized Fein distributor. And he may be as full of crap as the
Thanksgiving turkey. I thought Fein was Euro only.
Any thoughts? Leon? r?
Robert
Dave wrote:
> On Feb 5, 9:05 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On Feb 5, 8:34 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "BDBConstruction" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>> news:45ae9559-4c40-4a80-84df-40848b9e59b7@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> Looking at everything from TV sitcoms, to auto innovations, to
>>> innovations in homebuilding, home design, water and space heating,
>>> cooling, front load washers, low flush toilets, right down to
>>> cabinet hinges and drawer slides, I would say its somewhat the
>>> other way
>>> around. Though we are not the guinea pigs, we are usually just way
>>> behind the pace. I think the majority are simply resistant to
>>> change.
>>
>>> Wow Mark, I believe you probably hit the nail on the head.
>>
>>> When I apprenticed in the trade the most common sentiment was
>>> "this
>>> is
>>> the way I do it, because this is the way I have always done it".
>>> That mentality leaves little to no room for innovation which is
>>> always
>>> possible no matter how long you have done something. I can count
>>> dozens of innovations, which are now mainstream, that when brought
>>> to
>>> the US market from Europe were met with anything from complete
>>> skepticism to shear distain.
>>
>>> Ummmm like the SawStop for instance and it originated here but
>>> many
>>> did not like it for one reason or the other.
>>> In harmony with your view I was wondering what market these saws
>>> would be going after. Surely not framers in the construction
>>> industry as I doubt that these saws with their plunge mechanisms
>>> and riving knives and precise alignment adjustments would not
>>> remain in good working order when being tossed in the back of the
>>> truck. The old PC miter saw with the laser did not fair well in
>>> the
>>> field and adjustment problems were the reason that it failed. I
>>> suppose the new construction cabinet builder would benefit from
>>> these saws if it would eleminate having to set up the TS on the
>>> job
>>> site, but you are going to have to attract a special kind of
>>> cabinet builder.
>>
>> Yeah, I agree. Though the Dewalt shows the saw on a roof cutting
>> sheathing and in a framing application. Without seeing them and
>> reading reviews/testing it would be hard to say if one would stand
>> up
>> to the riggors of an average job site and maintaining accuracy
>> while
>> seeing abuse may be impossible. I have had the Festool in my hands
>> many times and while I think I would treat it nicely mainly due to
>> the cost I didnt inherantly feel like it wouldnt take some abuse.
>> That said, I highly doubt I would take it up on a roof. I could
>> personally find dozens, if not several dozen, uses for it on a job.
>> I see it for what it is, a great innovation.
>>
>> I personally thought the sawstop was long overdue and applauded it.
>> I
>> think the markets for that saw are endless from high school and
>> trade
>> school shop classes, to most every jobsite out there with paid
>> employees, namely their employers comp claims, on and on. I wouldnt
>> be surprised if one day it becomes an option on all saws.
>>
>> I definately dont mean to say the US lacks innovation it just seems
>> to me that many are too often creatures of habit and resist change.
>> Personally I am just the opposite. I usually try to resist routine
>> and habit in life and work. Habit and routine spawns stagnation, I
>> always say.
>>
>> Mark- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I thought the design had something to do with European style tools
> and
> space limitations. In the first case, don't they use a sliding top
> table saw design? They may not be used to our standard circular saw.
> In the second case, most woodworkers don't have a lot of shop space
> so
> a saw like this would lend itself to under mounting on a table.
> Anyone
> out there with first hand experience?
From the fact that there are at least four brands of plunge saw that
all use the same track, one suspects that they are a response to some
kind of European standard.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
>> IMHO this saw is targeting the cabinet builder and coupled with the work
>> table that Festool sells the combination will do just about anything
>> except cut dado's.
>
> They should put a depth stop on the plunge mechanism...then it could do
> dados/grooves as well!
>
> Chris
The Festool and IIRC The DeWalt do have depth stops but I do not know if you
could stack dado blades on the these saws. This is what keeps the saw from
cutting "through" the table tops on those nice benches that they sell.
Believe it or not I do have a dado set for a hand held circle saw that works
pretty well, all things considered.
In my years in the Air Force I spent 10 of them in Europe (from mid 70s to
mid 90s) and hand tools are the norm. In the late 70s my German landlord
was a carpenter, everything from construction to cabinets. The only power
tool I ever saw him use was a drill and I know he had no stationary or bench
top tools, his work shop was smaller than a one car garage. Most tradesman
there and in Spain used hand held tools, some powered some not, rarely did I
see any stationary tools unless you were in a manufacturing facility. I'm
not sure resistance to change is a factor, I think you'd find more trades or
craftsman doing things the old way in most of Europe than you would here.
Also they do apprentice longer, which gives the teacher more time to
indoctrinate the newbie.
One of the main things you see in Europe though are designs to get the most
out of any given space and I'm sure it applies to their tools as well as
furniture and cars.
--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ed6cb855-b7c1-465d-b83a-7332f9079265@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 5, 9:05 pm, BDBConstruction <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 8:34 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "BDBConstruction" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >news:45ae9559-4c40-4a80-84df-40848b9e59b7@m34g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Looking at everything from TV sitcoms, to auto innovations, to
> > innovations in homebuilding, home design, water and space heating,
> > cooling, front load washers, low flush toilets, right down to cabinet
> > hinges and drawer slides, I would say its somewhat the other way
> > around. Though we are not the guinea pigs, we are usually just way
> > behind the pace. I think the majority are simply resistant to change.
>
> > Wow Mark, I believe you probably hit the nail on the head.
>
> > When I apprenticed in the trade the most common sentiment was "this is
> > the way I do it, because this is the way I have always done it". That
> > mentality leaves little to no room for innovation which is always
> > possible no matter how long you have done something. I can count
> > dozens of innovations, which are now mainstream, that when brought to
> > the US market from Europe were met with anything from complete
> > skepticism to shear distain.
>
> > Ummmm like the SawStop for instance and it originated here but many did
> > not
> > like it for one reason or the other.
> > In harmony with your view I was wondering what market these saws would
> > be
> > going after. Surely not framers in the construction industry as I doubt
> > that these saws with their plunge mechanisms and riving knives and
> > precise
> > alignment adjustments would not remain in good working order when being
> > tossed in the back of the truck. The old PC miter saw with the laser did
> > not fair well in the field and adjustment problems were the reason that
> > it
> > failed. I suppose the new construction cabinet builder would benefit
> > from
> > these saws if it would eleminate having to set up the TS on the job
> > site,
> > but you are going to have to attract a special kind of cabinet builder.
>
> Yeah, I agree. Though the Dewalt shows the saw on a roof cutting
> sheathing and in a framing application. Without seeing them and
> reading reviews/testing it would be hard to say if one would stand up
> to the riggors of an average job site and maintaining accuracy while
> seeing abuse may be impossible. I have had the Festool in my hands
> many times and while I think I would treat it nicely mainly due to the
> cost I didnt inherantly feel like it wouldnt take some abuse. That
> said, I highly doubt I would take it up on a roof. I could personally
> find dozens, if not several dozen, uses for it on a job. I see it for
> what it is, a great innovation.
>
> I personally thought the sawstop was long overdue and applauded it. I
> think the markets for that saw are endless from high school and trade
> school shop classes, to most every jobsite out there with paid
> employees, namely their employers comp claims, on and on. I wouldnt be
> surprised if one day it becomes an option on all saws.
>
> I definately dont mean to say the US lacks innovation it just seems to
> me that many are too often creatures of habit and resist change.
> Personally I am just the opposite. I usually try to resist routine and
> habit in life and work. Habit and routine spawns stagnation, I always
> say.
>
> Mark- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I thought the design had something to do with European style tools and
space limitations. In the first case, don't they use a sliding top
table saw design? They may not be used to our standard circular saw.
In the second case, most woodworkers don't have a lot of shop space so
a saw like this would lend itself to under mounting on a table. Anyone
out there with first hand experience?
Regards,
Dave
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f06f87e2-5e84-470a-a38c-555130d1661c@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 5, 9:59 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> IIRC the Milwaukee Jig saws were manufactured by AEG, a German company.
>> Mine is also, however I wonder if the newer models are still made in
>> Germany.
>
> Leon and Robatoy, I just saw in interesting comment in another venue.
> I found a new in the box 18v Fein drill for about $140, new, in the
> case, with two batteries, a 15 minute charger and warranty. This was
> in a couple of places, not just one. Although it is a great price for
> the drill, Fein drills seem to be a little cheaper than their Euro
> counterparts.
>
> When I asked why the drill was so cheap compared to the other Fein
> tool offerings, the reply was "Simple. These drills are now made in
> China". I don't know this guy from Adam but he claims to be an
> authorized Fein distributor. And he may be as full of crap as the
> Thanksgiving turkey. I thought Fein was Euro only.
>
> Any thoughts? Leon? r?
>
> Robert
That very well could be. The Chinese are as capable as any one to build
quality products. It all depends on the company that is placing the order
and the spec's that they require.
Personally I have a Fein Multimaster but have never been inspired to
purchase any of their other products. IMHO it appears that Festool, a
really major player in the US these days, may be casting a large shadow on
the Fein products. Perhaps the Festool "curb appeal" has a stronger
influence over the potential Fein customers and Fein has had to make
manufacturing changes to lower the price of their drills to gain more
appeal.
I really did not know that Fein sold a drill. Is it cordless?
Looking from another angle, the new local Woodcraft had a Grand Opening that
was quite impressive. Manufacturer reps from Delta/Porter Cable, Steel City,
Jet, Festool, Kreg, and Fein were there showing off their products and
giving hands on demonstrations. They all were showing a good variety of the
products that they market except for Fein. The only tool that I recall
seeing demonstrated was their Multimaster. AAMOF the Kreg guy was using the
Festool vacuum in his pocket hole demonstrations. The Fein rep was
demonstrating the Multimaster about 30' away from the Kreg rep and Festool
was on the opposite end of the store.
Soooo, the cheaper Fein drill price could be an indicator of a multitude of
possibilities. Maybe China is making the cost of the Fein drill a more
affordable package. Maybe the vendor is closing out the Fein drills and has
cut the price to get rid of them. Rockler recently cut the price of the
Metabo small Drill driver in half to $75. I believe that model is being
closed out. Or perhaps they simply need to drop the price to attract
buyers.