Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
quality tool down the crapper !!!
"KS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
> are just killing the whole country.
Well I was not going to go that far but, you said it for me. LOL
In article <[email protected]>, "Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
>labor.
>
>Personally I have no problem with prison labor. Better to put them to work
>than laying around as they do here on our tax dollars.
Apparently you're unaware that much of the Chinese prison labor force is
composed of political prisoners, not actual criminals. If that doesn't bother
you, it should.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.
Depends on your management structure. Sometimes they actually do earn their
keep. Not saying every company is but I sub to a company thats lean and pays
well, management and labor both but that is a pretty involved story and one
you don't hear very often. The problem lies more in the definition of
skilled labor. I know a guy that works in a GM manufacturing plant that
makes about $32 an hour to stick a bolt in a threaded insert and buzz it
down with an impact wrench I have seen PBS specials that demonstrate monkeys
can work at a higher capacity. Don't take it the wrong way, I like Tim and
am glad he has a good paying job. I do bite my tongue every time he bitches
about jobs going overseas though. Compared to another fella I know that
makes about the same money working high steel you really do have to wonder
about the definition of skilled worker. Me I'm management and labor all
rolled into one so I don't really have a good opinion.....
Knothead
well with all the fus, i've been a paslode person for about 8 or 9 years
now and have 3 guns and i will only buy a paslode gun for its quality as
they have aways been rated a good gun.
as far as i know from about 9 years ago there was one model i was told
to stay away from and i got that info from a person who worked in the
main office and they did have some problems with that model, however
with a inside person telling me that up front i knew what i was looking
for and i thank that person yet today.
so there's only one name for me and thats PASLODE........say what you
wish about them but here's my 2 cents worth.
"USENET READER" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting
> the salaries of US workers?
Absolutely not. but not many CEO's have the labor union to do all of their
bidding.
> How many days a week do you work?
Usually 4. Sometimes 3, sometimes 7.
Unions fought for health coverage on
> teh job, workplace health and safety laws, wage and hour laws, Social
> Secutiry, etc. You wouldn't have the protections you have - or your
> fingers, eyes, toes, and other body parts - if not for unions!
At like the Model T, its time too has passed.
> Leon wrote:
>
>> <A Concerned Woodworker> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
>>>unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
>>>major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
>>>manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
>>>this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
>>>include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
>>>lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
>>>for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
>>>quality tool down the crapper !!!
>>
>>
>> If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
>> The reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to
>> build the products for the what they are really worth. There really is
>> no reason in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to
>> pay a high salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs
>> off to over seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail
>> gun and yet the workers here think that they should be paid rocket
>> science wages.
<A Concerned Woodworker> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
> unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
> major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
> manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
> this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
> include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
> lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
> for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
> quality tool down the crapper !!!
Yeah, just like that "made in Japan" crap....
Leon wrote:
...
> ...earn more than the people doing the same job in another
> country for 90% less. ...
While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor
may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of
the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't
be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...
So, as in any <real> issue, the problems are much more complex than such
simplistic descriptions or solutions...
World Traveler wrote:
>
...
>
> (d) The problem is multi-faceted -- an under-educated U.S. workforce which
> lacks a world-class work ethic, an education system that produces these
> unmotivated and unready graduates, a standard of management that does not
> motivate or make up the shortfalls of the educational system, and a
> political system that can't (or won't) address these problems.
I'll agree w/ most of the treatise except for the generalization that
implies essentially no variance between high and low ends of the
spectrum in both countries.
Overall, US productivity is still one of the world's highest, but that
is achieved by mechanization in the main. There is a skill level that
is variable within all work forces, worldwide. China/India/Pakistan are
no different in that regard than the US.
There is a definite problem in the US that political rhetoric gets in
the way of solutions more than in controlled economies/governments.
That this is wholly bad is a conjecture to which I'm not prepared to
accede. (The form, not the result, that is).
Kevin wrote:
...
> Personally I have no problem with prison labor. Better to put them to work
> than laying around as they do here on our tax dollars.
...
Problem isn't the ethics, it's the trade distortion of essentially free
labor.
Same problem in the US if one company were to be allowed the advantage
of not paying their employees while their competitors weren't allowed
the same opportunity.
"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Overall, US productivity is still one of the world's highest, but that
> is achieved by mechanization in the main. There is a skill level that
> is variable within all work forces, worldwide. China/India/Pakistan are
> no different in that regard than the US.
Y'think? Especially as it applies to production or factory labor? Or is
the whole skewed by the office worker's "productivity?"
Isn't it all GNP $ / workforce #?
How do they figure an item manufactured in China or any other place? No
question that the value added (or just taken) favors the
importer/distributor. Have a feeling that this may be some damned lies
converted to statistics.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "World
Traveler" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > There are FAA certified aviation
> >production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
draw
> >customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
their
> >work.
>
> I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.
>
Therein lies the problem. You can demand, or you can seek. Which is more
productive?
We demand, they seek - and work.
"J. Clarke" wrote:
...
> Probably just the same kind of xenophobia that caused people in the '50s and
> early '60s to put down Japanese products before they got a load of Sony and
> Nikon.
...
Well, maybe a little, but the real reason was that from the period after
WWII, Japan had no manufacturing of significance left and much of the
production from there <was> inferior....this changed over time (thanks a
lot to they're having paid attention to Deming while he could get no
more than lip service from most American manufacturers of the time). It
took a long time to overcome the previous perceptions even when they
were no longer generally true...
A similar effect is occurring in RPC now...some products are not only
inexpensive, they're cheap. Others rate as well as any produced
anywhere in the world.
CW wrote:
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, "World
> Traveler" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > There are FAA certified aviation
> > >production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
> draw
> > >customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
> their
> > >work.
> >
> > I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.
>
> You're right not to believe it. I build commercial aircraft here and know
> where this stuff comes from.
...
Well, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there aren't at least <some>
subassemblies/parts being produced in PRC. While I don't know the
current status, there was a big hub-bub made in Wichita over one of the
agreements Boeing made w/ China on one of the major sales a couple of
years ago that included transferral of some portion of the manufacturing
to China. Where that agreement stands today I'm not certain, but if it
isn't occurring yet, I expect it will before long...
The demise of Boeing from the apex to the current status as becoming
simply an assembler of outside-produced parts is certainly a
poster-child of the overall situation.
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:32:17 GMT, the inscrutable "World Traveler"
<[email protected]> spake:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>[snip]
>>
>> Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
>> labor.
>>
>[snip]
>
>That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, --
>just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but
Poor Doug probably thinks Global Warming is real, the War on Drugs is
doing some good, DDT and silicone implants were killers, low-fat diets
were safe, bullets should be serialized for ID, cholesterol from eggs
will kill you, O.J. and Jackson are innocent, the war in Iraq is
necessary, and, um, that the DHS is making America SAFE! <sigh>
>But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor
>is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S.
>license plates and street signs?? Regards --
I've seen more stories (and video) on happy Chinese workers than I
have on prison labor tactics.
--== May The Angst Be With You! ==--
-Yoda, on a bad day
--
http://diversify.com Ending Your Web Page Angst.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.
Exactly. Now that our country has used most of its cheap natural resources
it has to compete with the rest of the world. Blaming others countries for
doing a job at a reasonable price is not going to fix our problems. Or we
could tax the living day lights out of imported products like imported cars.
I learned that the 90 Acura that my wife and I bought in 1989 would have
been 30% cheaper with out the import tax added.
You should be leading by example. The average Chinese worker makes about 18
cents an hour. If you're charging more than 20 cents, you are part of the
problem. I said $6.00 because that is about average minimum wage (try to
live on it).
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > So, you pay yourself what? About $6.00 per hour?
>
> Sometimes. Yes.
>
> Seldom more than $25.
>
>
>
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:45:12 -0500, the inscrutable A Concerned
Woodworker <> spake:
>Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
>unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
>major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
>manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
>this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
>include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
>lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
>for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
>quality tool down the crapper !!!
Now you can either pay $xxxx for a Paslode nailah made in China or $xx
for a Harbor Freight nailah made in China--perhaps at the same plant.
Your call.
--
Don't forget the 7 P's:
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance
----------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
"World Traveler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [sniip]
>
> The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
>>>China, built to FAA certification.
>>
>> That's actually a pretty scary thought.
>>
>>> There are FAA certified aviation
>>>production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
>>>draw
>>>customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
>>>their
>>>work.
>>
>> I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.
>>
> [snip]
>
> Fair enough. Here's proof, from the FAA's own web site. Go to
> http://av-info.faa.gov. Enter country: China and add any major city and
> you'll see a list of FAA certified repair stations. For example:
> Shanghai:
>
> CEA HONEYWELL AIRCRAFT WHEELS AND BRAKES REPAIR AN
> NO 24 LONGJUA AIRPORT
> SHANGHAI, 200232
>
> COLLINS AVIATION MAINTENANCE SERVICES SHANGHAI LTD
> GENERAL FACTORY BUILDING 4, FLOOR 1
> 389 GANG AO ROAD
> SHANGHAI, 200131
>
> TAIKOO XIAMEN AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING CO LTD SHANGHAI
> ROOM C3-120 & C3-121
> PASSENGER INTERNATIONAL TERMINAL
> SHANGHAI,
>
> Guangzhou:
>
> GUANGCHOU AIRCRAFT MNTC AND ENGINEERING CO LTD
> GUANGZHOU NEW BAIYUN
> INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
> GUANGZHOU, 510407
>
> GUANGZHOU HANGXIN AVIONICS COMPANY LTD
> NO. 2 KEXIN ROAD
> TIANHE DISTRICT
> GUANGZHOU, 510665
>
> plus Xian, Beijing, etc.
>
> And of course, there's HAECO, which has had previous contracts maintaining
> USAF C-130s.
>
> As for aircraft parts, Douglas started using Chinese components made in
> Shanghai about 25 years ago, starting with nosewheel landing gear doors.
> There's a quarter-of-a-century of a track record with FAA certification in
> that location alone.
>
> Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates
> you've got some other agenda --
>
> Regards --
>
Reference to "Xian" should be "Xiamen". Xiamen is a major repair station;
Xian is the Chinese flight test center.
The growth in Chinese aviation is phenomenal. In 1983 there was one
national airline; in 1986 there were 40, and 102 new major airfields. To
staff these, China is sending as many students as possible to overseas
schools, especially locations such as Embry-Riddle.
All of this is being driven by the resurgence of Chinese capital markets
policies and the profit motive. None of this has anything to do with
woodworking, except that if you visit Chinese specialty stores you'll find
solid, well-built, (if not technologically advanced) woodworking tools that
Chinese craftsmen use to turn out extraordinary wood products.
And you've completely danced around the real question -- if Chinese tools
are so inferior, how is it that Chinese craftsmen do such good work???
Well, I might as well wade in.
I am not a big HF fan but I occasionally buy small tools from them. However
I bought a $99 mortiser from them several years ago - mainly on a whim.
Surprise - It cut's square holes well and the chisels have taken several
sharpenings quite well. The hold-down mechanism sucked but I have worked
around that with some mods and clamps. Probably won't be my last mortiser
but it fills the bill for now.
Also, an aquaintance entered the trim carpentry a couple of years ago after
being laid off from the aircraft industry. Starting on a shoestring, he
purchased HF brad and finish nailers - both for about $100. Figured they
would get him going until he could afford better. His only complaint after
two years is they won't wear out and he takes a lot of crap from his peers.
(A few of whom now own HF nailers as "back ups".)
Anyone can build crap and unfortuanately we are seeing quite a bit of it
coming from "domestic manufacturers". Anyone compared a 30 year old Unisaw
with a new one lately? It ain't crap but it isn't what it used to be - just
3-4 times the price. That is why products like the Grizzly 1023 series saws
are so popular.
So There
RonB
In article <[email protected]>, "World Traveler" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Look again. The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
>China, built to FAA certification.
That's actually a pretty scary thought.
> There are FAA certified aviation
>production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which draw
>customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of their
>work.
I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.
>The computer on which you read this msg probably was at least
>partially built in China. How's that for differentiating quality and trash?
Yes, I'm sure it was, and that probably accounts for the premature failure of
various components. The overwhelming majority of failed boards and power
supplies that I've seen were made in Communist China. In my experience, those
made _anywhere_else_ are much more reliable.
>
>It isn't the ethnicity of the worker that establishes the quality of a
>product,
Who said it was? I have _no_problem_ buying tools, electronics, or whatever,
made in Taiwan, where the workers are of identical ethnicity to those on the
mainland - and the goods they produce are of _markedly_better_ quality.
>it's the design and management decisions made that guide the
>worker, and the q.c. and management oversight of the production process.
Yes, indeed - all of which seem to be very sadly lacking in most of the stuff
that comes out of the PRC.
>
>What China has been lacking in is enough capital to build a modernized
>production base.
No, what China has been lacking, and continues to lack, is an economic system
that rewards quality and punishes its absence. And until that system appears,
they will continue to produce crap.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "World
Traveler" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > There are FAA certified aviation
> >production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
draw
> >customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
their
> >work.
>
> I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.
You're right not to believe it. I build commercial aircraft here and know
where this stuff comes from.
>
> >The computer on which you read this msg probably was at least
> >partially built in China. How's that for differentiating quality and
trash?
>
> Yes, I'm sure it was, and that probably accounts for the premature failure
of
> various components. The overwhelming majority of failed boards and power
> supplies that I've seen were made in Communist China. In my experience,
those
> made _anywhere_else_ are much more reliable.
> >
> >It isn't the ethnicity of the worker that establishes the quality of a
> >product,
>
> Who said it was? I have _no_problem_ buying tools, electronics, or
whatever,
> made in Taiwan, where the workers are of identical ethnicity to those on
the
> mainland - and the goods they produce are of _markedly_better_ quality.
>
> >it's the design and management decisions made that guide the
> >worker, and the q.c. and management oversight of the production process.
>
> Yes, indeed - all of which seem to be very sadly lacking in most of the
stuff
> that comes out of the PRC.
> >
> >What China has been lacking in is enough capital to build a modernized
> >production base.
>
> No, what China has been lacking, and continues to lack, is an economic
system
> that rewards quality and punishes its absence. And until that system
appears,
> they will continue to produce crap.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Leon wrote:
> "KS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>[email protected] says...
>
>
>>Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
>>are just killing the whole country.
>
>
> Well I was not going to go that far but, you said it for me. LOL
>
You are a tool if you think that management is worth more than the hands
that build the tools!
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The
> reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
> the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason
> in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
> salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
> seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
> workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.
>
Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
are just killing the whole country.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> snip
> problem get to this point. Unfortunately there are too many that believe
> they have a right to earn more than the people doing the same job in another
> country for 90% less. I retired from upper automotive management at 40.
> snip
>
Exactly correct. But lets not limit our thinking and bias towards
workers.
Why does American management think they are "better" than their Chinese
counterparts and therefore should not be outsourced along with the
workers?
I suspect its a simple answer of: Well, but ah....because I'm management
and without me running the show here in the US the whole company might as
well be in China.......oh ah, wait a minute.... I ah meant to say....
Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan. I
was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every bit as
good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the cheap,
poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they can
sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not as
profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company, not the
Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
<A Concerned Woodworker> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Oh well, another
> quality tool down the crapper !!!
They made some real nice stuff years ago too but the American importers that
went there were not looking to buy that. They wanted cheap that they could
maximize profits with. If American importers were to buy quality Chinese
made products, bring them here and expect to sell them at their typical huge
markup, they wouldn't sell. If the buying public looks at two identical
products, one is $100.00, the other is $95.00 and the $95.00 is made in
China, which one are they going to buy? Everybody thinks all things made in
china are junk. The only advantage to buying Chinese is buying junk. If you
want quality, you might as well buy American, German, English, ect.
"skeezics" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> JMHO. But japan got that same rep some years back also and today they
> make some real nice stuff so change is likely to come for the better.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
> China is
> that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
> the
> lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing
> business in
> China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
> and
> for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
> regulation.
>
>>There really is no reason
>>in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
>>salary.
>
> More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality
> steel.
> (How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?) It
> pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
> products
> in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
> to,
> wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
> their
> surroundings clean.)
I agree about the lower cost due to lack of regulation and cheaper labor.
While a lot of stuff coming from China is crap, they are also very capable
of turning out high quality goods also. We use some products made in Korea
and China that are superior than what we can get in the US. The days of
making generalizations that China = crap are pretty much gone.
Right now a cargo plane from Korea is bringing in some tooling we ordered.
(better quality at half the price in a third the time) One of the US
companies we requested information from has not even provided a quote yet.
One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.
Kevin wrote:
> I got back from a visit to China over the Christams holidays and saw a
> couple things that speak to the comments below.
> As to the cost of living - yep, you can live cheap in China. There were
> about 15 of us at 2 tables in a VERY GOOD restaurant in Guanzhou. All
> together over 20 dishes and when we were finished there was a good deal of
> food left over. Cost? - less that $100.00. Also in Guanzhou saw some USB
> key chain storage units. 128 MB for about $12.00.
> You can retire in relative comfort for about $200/month there although you
> will be giving up a few things that most probably see as essential here.
Like quality health care, democracy, freedom of speech, etc. Can't wait
to see how fast Bush starts to force retirees to move to China to make
their SOcial Security checks go further - wait until you live next to a
chicken slaughter house and come down with SARS.
>
>
> At the same time while crossing a bridge to head home, saw maybe a dozen
> people selling pirated software. Most was of music and groups I never heard
> of.
>
>
> "BillyBob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:_d9ce.19056$yc.2079@trnddc07...
>
>>"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Leon wrote:
>>>...
>>>
>>>>...earn more than the people doing the same job in another
>>>>country for 90% less. ...
>>>
>>>While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor
>>>may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of
>>>the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't
>>>be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...
>>>
>>>So, as in any <real> issue, the problems are much more complex than such
>>>simplistic descriptions or solutions...
>>
>>One area that has not been discussed is the wholesale piracy of
>
> intellectual
>
>>property by the Chinese - this ranges from hi-tech to low tech. When you
>
> do
>
>>not have to do R&D to develop an item your production cost is lower. . .
>>
>>Also there was an article in Business Week a couple of months ago about
>>counterfeit products - it was scary as counterfeits may not be made to the
>>same spec and could cause injury or loss of life.
>>
>>Products made in China can be high quality but my experience is that is
>>generally not the rule - I do have a Canon copier made in China that is of
>>the same quality of one made in Japan.
>>
>>I was surprised recent on a visit to Lowes to see an Ingersol-Rand ratchet
>>(made in China) sitting next to a Campbell Hausfield (made in Taiwan). The
>>IR was about 2.5X the price of the CH and appeared to be of equal
>
> quality -
>
>>what seems to be happening is that many companies are going to China and
>
> the
>
>>execs apologize for losing local jobs as they line their own pockets. . .
>>
>>BillyB
>>
>>
>
>
>
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[snip]
>
> Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
> labor.
>
[snip]
That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, --
just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but
it's a gross overstatement to say that "a lot" of the exports are
prison-produced. Prison products are sold in the local marketplace to raise
money to operate the prisons -- to that extent they are self-supporting
rather than dependent upon tax dollars.
Things operate differently in China and it's a mistake to take single
examples out of context. For example, standard procedure in a hospital is
for the patient (or family) to provide the meals; the military grows its own
crops; cities and provinces get involved in commercial ventures as
profit-making enterprises. Everyone is producing and looking for that edge
to make themselves more profitable. The Air Force operates commercial
vegetable farms and a commercial airline (China United Airline); Chengdu
city was a partner with Hughes to develop the cell telephone network -- for
Chengdu city.
But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor
is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S.
license plates and street signs?? Regards --
In article <[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or else
you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for
comparison.
>The
>reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
>the products for the what they are really worth.
What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to China is
that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at the
lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing business in
China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor - and
for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental regulation.
>There really is no reason
>in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
>salary.
More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality steel.
(How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?) It
pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture products
in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want to,
wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep their
surroundings clean.)
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
In article <[email protected]>, novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:32:17 GMT, the inscrutable "World Traveler"
><[email protected]> spake:
>
>>
>>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>[snip]
>>>
>>> Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
>>> labor.
>>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, --
>>just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but
>
>Poor Doug probably thinks Global Warming is real, the War on Drugs is
>doing some good, DDT and silicone implants were killers, low-fat diets
>were safe, bullets should be serialized for ID, cholesterol from eggs
>will kill you, O.J. and Jackson are innocent, the war in Iraq is
>necessary, and, um, that the DHS is making America SAFE! <sigh>
No, no, no, yes, no, maybe, no, too early to tell, and probably not.
>
>
>>But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor
>>is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S.
>>license plates and street signs?? Regards --
>
>I've seen more stories (and video) on happy Chinese workers than I
>have on prison labor tactics.
And in the mid-1800s there were a lot of stories about the happy slaves on
Southern plantations, too. Do you believe everything you see?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
One of the biggest problems with China right now is that the Chinese
government is artificially suppressing the value of their money in order to
flood the world with Chinese products and force everyone else out of the
market. This is not highly publicized but is well known to (our) government.
They are threatening trade sanctions if this doesn't cease. The Chinese, of
course, are claiming that the big, bad US is just being mean. Listen to
Chinese radio to hear them whine about it. If their currency was allowed to
inflate naturally (as it would), there would come a time when Chinese
production would loose a lot of it's appeal to American importers, just as
happened with Japan, and to a lesser extent, Taiwan.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Again CW, you hit the nail on the head.
>
>
>
>
>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan.
I
> > was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every bit
> > as
> > good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
> > consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the cheap,
> > poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
> > importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they
can
> > sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
> > quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not as
> > profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
> > company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company, not
> > the
> > Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
> > <A Concerned Woodworker> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > Oh well, another
> >> quality tool down the crapper !!!
> >
> >
>
>
In article <[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "Leon"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or
>> else
>> you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for
>> comparison.
>
>Wrong on both counts.
>Every body is capable of building quality and trash. I have seen an equal
>amount from just about every where.
Then IMO either you haven't been looking very hard, or your ability to
distinguish quality from trash is impaired. Do you *seriously* contend that
the average quality level of tools made in China and India is on a par with
those made in Germany, Canada, or the U.S.?
>
>
>>>The
>>>reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
>>>the products for the what they are really worth.
>
>> What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
>> China is
>> that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
>> the
>> lowest possible cost without regard for quality.
>
>Lowest cost yes, but a a quality that the public is willing to put up with
>or settle for.
Speak for yourself. *Some* of the public, yes. Even *most* of the public,
perhaps.
>
> The cost of doing business in
>> China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
>> and
>> for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
>> regulation.
>
>Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.
Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison labor.
>>>There really is no reason
>>>in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
>>>salary.
>>
>> More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor.
>
>It does not require that kind of skill to do repeated assembly.
There's a lot more to it than just assembly-line work. Somebody has to
maintain the production machinery. Somebody has to inspect raw materials
coming in, and finished products going out.
>It pays for high-quality steel. Probably not $30 worth of steel unless the
>steel was manufactured by over paid workers.
The company SWMBO works for recently started - and then abandoned - an effort
to establish a subsidiary in China, to produce goods for use _in_China_, not
for export. Among the reasons they abandoned the project was the inability of
Chinese steel producers to consistently supply steel that met their specs.
They have not had that problem at their U.S. plants. I can't imagine that
their experience is unique.
>> (How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?)
>
>I am betting no more than a low quality American screw.
And I am betting that you haven't been paying attention to where the screws
you use are made. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've ever, in
my life, twisted the head off of a screw that I know was made in the U.S. or
Canada.
>
>Country origin has absolutely no factor over resulting quality.
Yeah, right. I bet you drive a Yugo, and think that it's just as good as a
Mercedes.
>
>
>It > pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
>products
>> in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
>> to,
>> wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
>> their
>> surroundings clean.).
>
>Still THAT has nothing to do with over paid workers.
Just pointing out that there are *other* reasons for the low price of Chinese
products besides the disparity in worker salaries. You apparently think that's
the only reason, and that's just not true.
>
>Until we start blaming ourselves for our own problems in pricing and
>quality, we will remain in this situation.
Unfortunately, *you* are a large part of that problem, with your obstinate and
ridiculous belief that the quality of Chinese-made products is on a par with
those made elsewhere. It's quite apparent that, like millions of other
Americans, you can't tell the difference.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
"Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
> ...
> > ...earn more than the people doing the same job in another
> > country for 90% less. ...
>
> While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor
> may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of
> the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't
> be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...
>
> So, as in any <real> issue, the problems are much more complex than such
> simplistic descriptions or solutions...
One area that has not been discussed is the wholesale piracy of intellectual
property by the Chinese - this ranges from hi-tech to low tech. When you do
not have to do R&D to develop an item your production cost is lower. . .
Also there was an article in Business Week a couple of months ago about
counterfeit products - it was scary as counterfeits may not be made to the
same spec and could cause injury or loss of life.
Products made in China can be high quality but my experience is that is
generally not the rule - I do have a Canon copier made in China that is of
the same quality of one made in Japan.
I was surprised recent on a visit to Lowes to see an Ingersol-Rand ratchet
(made in China) sitting next to a Campbell Hausfield (made in Taiwan). The
IR was about 2.5X the price of the CH and appeared to be of equal quality -
what seems to be happening is that many companies are going to China and the
execs apologize for losing local jobs as they line their own pockets. . .
BillyB
You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting
the salaries of US workers?
How many days a week do you work? Unions fought for health coverage on
teh job, workplace health and safety laws, wage and hour laws, Social
Secutiry, etc. You wouldn't have the protections you have - or your
fingers, eyes, toes, and other body parts - if not for unions!
Leon wrote:
> <A Concerned Woodworker> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
>>unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
>>major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
>>manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
>>this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
>>include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
>>lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
>>for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
>>quality tool down the crapper !!!
>
>
> If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The
> reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
> the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason
> in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
> salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
> seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
> workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.
>
>
So, you pay yourself what? About $6.00 per hour?
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> The exact point I was making. And I wonder how long it took to learn that
> skill of screwing a bolt into that insert? ;~) The management can be
> blamed equally for having poor working conditions years ago and letting
the
> problem get to this point. Unfortunately there are too many that believe
> they have a right to earn more than the people doing the same job in
another
> country for 90% less. I retired from upper automotive management at 40.
I
> now work doing woodworking for a fraction of what I was being paid. It
was
> my choice and I accept the lower wages. Actually I am self employed and
> charge what I feel the work is actually worth and not what I can get.
>
>
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:52:26 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"skeezics" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
>>
>> It doe's and no i am not!
>
>No id does not and yes you are.
>
>
anything i have ever seen that says made in china looked and felt
zackaly ! [ zacaly like shit ! ] there may be some good stuff comming
from china but blue collar joe aint sein it so far as i can tell.
JMHO. But japan got that same rep some years back also and today they
make some real nice stuff so change is likely to come for the better.
>>>
>>
>> Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
>> than it does there. lets not forget that!
>
>You ever stop to think why that is so, could it be because labor gets paid
>more than its production value?
that may be but if everyone in this country gave back a % of their
salery we would all
would starve to death before the drop in prices could occur.
>
>And ummm... do ya think that
>> 300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
>> it built cheeper in china? I think not.
>
>If the American worker building that gun would sell work for a wage that is
>equal to the skill level required you would see a lot of stuff drop in
>price.
see above.
>
>
>> More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
>> for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
>> profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
>> for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
>> sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
>> money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
>> this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
>> sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.
>
>If labor was a reasonable cost this would have never had to happen.
>
while i agree with this we all must take a good long look into the
past when this country was coming of age in industry.
I dont know how all this stuff is going to get fixed but i do know if
it doesn't get fixed our children and grandchildren are gonna be i
hurt status. I'm not sure ther is one simple fix but we don't seem to
be doing anything!! THATS SCARY !!
BTW i am posting pics of my newest and most specialist gloat over in
ABPW. only took 5 or 6 weeks for someone to send a pic but i got it
today on my b-day and I AN TICKLED PINK !!! take a look. be up in 5.
skeez
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> In article <[email protected]>, "Leon"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
-----------much snippage---------------
> > The cost of doing business in
> >> China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
> >> and
> >> for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
> >> regulation.
> >
> >Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.
>
> Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
labor.
<lurk mode off
Personally I have no problem with prison labor. Better to put them to work
than laying around as they do here on our tax dollars.
<lurk mode on
I got back from a visit to China over the Christams holidays and saw a
couple things that speak to the comments below.
As to the cost of living - yep, you can live cheap in China. There were
about 15 of us at 2 tables in a VERY GOOD restaurant in Guanzhou. All
together over 20 dishes and when we were finished there was a good deal of
food left over. Cost? - less that $100.00. Also in Guanzhou saw some USB
key chain storage units. 128 MB for about $12.00.
You can retire in relative comfort for about $200/month there although you
will be giving up a few things that most probably see as essential here.
At the same time while crossing a bridge to head home, saw maybe a dozen
people selling pirated software. Most was of music and groups I never heard
of.
"BillyBob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:_d9ce.19056$yc.2079@trnddc07...
>
> "Duane Bozarth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Leon wrote:
> > ...
> > > ...earn more than the people doing the same job in another
> > > country for 90% less. ...
> >
> > While there's a kernel of truth in the argument that some union labor
> > may be overpriced, there's the problem that in the other country 10% of
> > the wage here is sufficient to live quite well, whereas here it wouldn't
> > be sufficient even if the individual economized to the extreme...
> >
> > So, as in any <real> issue, the problems are much more complex than such
> > simplistic descriptions or solutions...
>
> One area that has not been discussed is the wholesale piracy of
intellectual
> property by the Chinese - this ranges from hi-tech to low tech. When you
do
> not have to do R&D to develop an item your production cost is lower. . .
>
> Also there was an article in Business Week a couple of months ago about
> counterfeit products - it was scary as counterfeits may not be made to the
> same spec and could cause injury or loss of life.
>
> Products made in China can be high quality but my experience is that is
> generally not the rule - I do have a Canon copier made in China that is of
> the same quality of one made in Japan.
>
> I was surprised recent on a visit to Lowes to see an Ingersol-Rand ratchet
> (made in China) sitting next to a Campbell Hausfield (made in Taiwan). The
> IR was about 2.5X the price of the CH and appeared to be of equal
quality -
> what seems to be happening is that many companies are going to China and
the
> execs apologize for losing local jobs as they line their own pockets. . .
>
> BillyB
>
>
USENET READER wrote:
>
>
> Leon wrote:
>
>> "KS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>[email protected] says...
>>
>>
>>>Yeah, and management deserves every dime they get. Those damn workers
>>>are just killing the whole country.
>>
>>
>> Well I was not going to go that far but, you said it for me. LOL
>>
>
>
>
> You are a tool if you think that management is worth more than the hands
> that build the tools!
Well, let's see. What do those hands do when the parts don't arrive? What
do they do when the finished product is standing in a pile at the end of
the assembly line? What do they do when one of the machines on the line
goes down? Which one of them sends out the bills to the customers?
Sorry, the Russians thought it was that simple and shot all the managers.
They still haven't recovered.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
USENET READER wrote:
> You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting
> the salaries of US workers?
>
> How many days a week do you work? Unions fought for health coverage on
> teh job, workplace health and safety laws, wage and hour laws, Social
> Secutiry, etc. You wouldn't have the protections you have - or your
> fingers, eyes, toes, and other body parts - if not for unions!
Only thing any union ever did for me was negotiate a pay cut.
> Leon wrote:
>
>> <A Concerned Woodworker> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
>>>unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
>>>major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
>>>manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
>>>this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
>>>include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
>>>lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
>>>for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
>>>quality tool down the crapper !!!
>>
>>
>> If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
>> The reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to
>> build
>> the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no
>> reason in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a
>> high
>> salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to
>> over
>> seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet
>> the workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.
>>
>>
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
World Traveler wrote:
> [sniip]
>
> The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
>>>China, built to FAA certification.
>>
>> That's actually a pretty scary thought.
>>
>>> There are FAA certified aviation
>>>production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
>>>draw
>>>customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
>>>their
>>>work.
>>
>> I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.
>>
> [snip]
>
> Fair enough. Here's proof, from the FAA's own web site. Go to
> http://av-info.faa.gov. Enter country: China and add any major city and
> you'll see a list of FAA certified repair stations. For example:
> Shanghai:
>
> CEA HONEYWELL AIRCRAFT WHEELS AND BRAKES REPAIR AN
> NO 24 LONGJUA AIRPORT
> SHANGHAI, 200232
>
> COLLINS AVIATION MAINTENANCE SERVICES SHANGHAI LTD
> GENERAL FACTORY BUILDING 4, FLOOR 1
> 389 GANG AO ROAD
> SHANGHAI, 200131
>
> TAIKOO XIAMEN AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING CO LTD SHANGHAI
> ROOM C3-120 & C3-121
> PASSENGER INTERNATIONAL TERMINAL
> SHANGHAI,
>
> Guangzhou:
>
> GUANGCHOU AIRCRAFT MNTC AND ENGINEERING CO LTD
> GUANGZHOU NEW BAIYUN
> INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
> GUANGZHOU, 510407
>
> GUANGZHOU HANGXIN AVIONICS COMPANY LTD
> NO. 2 KEXIN ROAD
> TIANHE DISTRICT
> GUANGZHOU, 510665
>
> plus Xian, Beijing, etc.
>
> And of course, there's HAECO, which has had previous contracts maintaining
> USAF C-130s.
>
> As for aircraft parts, Douglas started using Chinese components made in
> Shanghai about 25 years ago, starting with nosewheel landing gear doors.
> There's a quarter-of-a-century of a track record with FAA certification in
> that location alone.
>
> Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates
> you've got some other agenda --
Probably just the same kind of xenophobia that caused people in the '50s and
early '60s to put down Japanese products before they got a load of Sony and
Nikon.
> Regards --
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Leon wrote:
>
> "skeezics" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
>>
>> It doe's and no i am not!
>
> No id does not and yes you are.
>
>
>>>
>>
>> Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
>> than it does there. lets not forget that!
>
> You ever stop to think why that is so, could it be because labor gets paid
> more than its production value?
So you're saying that factory workers in China should be paid enough to live
in a mansion with servants just to keep wages equal with the US? If not
then what are you suggesting?
Until China has a competitive well established industrial base and is
bringing in large amounts of foreign trade, wages will remain low. They
were low in Japan after WWII, but as Japanese products found new markets
and the Japanese economy grew, wages rose in proportion. So did prices.
When that happened the Japanese started moving production to other
countries where labor costs were lower. Now some of those countries have
labor costs rivalling those of Japan and the US. Eventually China will get
there too and production will move to such places as Rwanda.
> And ummm... do ya think that
>> 300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
>> it built cheeper in china? I think not.
>
> If the American worker building that gun would sell work for a wage that
> is equal to the skill level required you would see a lot of stuff drop in
> price.
If the American worker building that gun would sell work for the same price
as a Chinese worker then that American worker would starve to death and
cease to be productive.
>> More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
>> for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
>> profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
>> for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
>> sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
>> money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
>> this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
>> sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.
>
> If labor was a reasonable cost this would have never had to happen.
I see. So to what do you attribute high labor costs in Japan? Are they
also paying their workers more than their work is worth?
Simple fact, an hour of work has no _intrinsic_ value. It's value is what
someone will pay for it. If the most anybody will pay for it is a dime
then that's what it's worth. If they'll pay a million dollars then that's
what it's worth. Where there is a high demand for workers wages will be
high. Where there is a low demand for workers, wages will be low. China
has a labor force 5 times that of the US and a GDP about half as large, so
there is little demand for workers IN CHINA.
I think you need to study a little bit of basic economics.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
If I remember correctly several SE Asian countries did let their currencies
float back in the 80s (Korea?Thailand?) rather than pegging them to the
dollar. Result? Collapse. Not all that good of an idea for the country.
Now, IF they (China) can develop to the point where there is some faith in
its economy, a floating exchange could be good. This assumes that the
government is willing to change. Perhaps this will be the case in another
generation.
-Kevin
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> One of the biggest problems with China right now is that the Chinese
> government is artificially suppressing the value of their money in order
to
> flood the world with Chinese products and force everyone else out of the
> market. This is not highly publicized but is well known to (our)
government.
> They are threatening trade sanctions if this doesn't cease. The Chinese,
of
> course, are claiming that the big, bad US is just being mean. Listen to
> Chinese radio to hear them whine about it. If their currency was allowed
to
> inflate naturally (as it would), there would come a time when Chinese
> production would loose a lot of it's appeal to American importers, just as
> happened with Japan, and to a lesser extent, Taiwan.
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Again CW, you hit the nail on the head.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in
Japan.
> I
> > > was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every
bit
> > > as
> > > good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
> > > consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the
cheap,
> > > poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
> > > importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they
> can
> > > sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
> > > quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not
as
> > > profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
> > > company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company,
not
> > > the
> > > Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
> > > <A Concerned Woodworker> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > Oh well, another
> > >> quality tool down the crapper !!!
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
This is how rumors start, isn't it?! Your information is inaccurate
an untrue. I know for a fact that the majority (80%+) of the parts
are made in the U.S. and the ALL the Impulse and almost all
air guns are still assembled in the U.S. Quality is top priority
there and they test every little component that is in those guns.
How many other brands can even come close to doing that?
By the way, didn't they just lower their prices last year?!! I don't
think you can beat their quality and power with any other brand!
I also know that they make their nails here in the U.S. too. Check
your labels boys & girls, I bet their one of the last ones that
do.
I will never give up my Paslode tools and will always support them,
becuase I trust their experience and performance!
> A Concerned Woodworkerwrote:
Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
> unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have
their
> major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
> manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much,
but
> this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This
will
> include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than
likely
> lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as
much
> for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well,
another
> quality tool down the crapper !!!
<A Concerned Woodworker> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well, just to let you guys know, I have been made aware of a very
> unfortunate piece of information. Paslode has decided to have their
> major internal components for the cordless nail gun group, to be
> manufactured and machined in China. This may not sound like much, but
> this amounts to 95 % of the internal workings of the gun. This will
> include all framers as well as trimmers. This will more than likely
> lead to more failures in the field, and God knows when we pay as much
> for these tools as we do, we expect them to work ! Oh well, another
> quality tool down the crapper !!!
If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken. The
reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
the products for the what they are really worth. There really is no reason
in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
salary. I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
seas manufacturers. It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.
Again CW, you hit the nail on the head.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Not necessarily. Back when "made in Japan" meant junk, I lived in Japan. I
> was amazed at the quality of the products you could buy there, every bit
> as
> good as anything made anywhere. Technology that was available to the
> consumer was far higher there than in the US. The reason for the cheap,
> poorly made junk coming out of China is that is what they (American
> importers) are buying. They are going there for low end junk that they can
> sell here at a great profit. If they wanted, they could buy excellent
> quality products but, of course, they would be higher priced and not as
> profitable. Don't think made in China parts are going to destroy the
> company. If the quality goes down because of it, blame the company, not
> the
> Chinese (there's lots of other things to blame them for).
> <A Concerned Woodworker> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Oh well, another
>> quality tool down the crapper !!!
>
>
[sniip]
The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
>>China, built to FAA certification.
>
> That's actually a pretty scary thought.
>
>> There are FAA certified aviation
>>production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which
>>draw
>>customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of
>>their
>>work.
>
> I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.
>
[snip]
Fair enough. Here's proof, from the FAA's own web site. Go to
http://av-info.faa.gov. Enter country: China and add any major city and
you'll see a list of FAA certified repair stations. For example: Shanghai:
CEA HONEYWELL AIRCRAFT WHEELS AND BRAKES REPAIR AN
NO 24 LONGJUA AIRPORT
SHANGHAI, 200232
COLLINS AVIATION MAINTENANCE SERVICES SHANGHAI LTD
GENERAL FACTORY BUILDING 4, FLOOR 1
389 GANG AO ROAD
SHANGHAI, 200131
TAIKOO XIAMEN AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING CO LTD SHANGHAI
ROOM C3-120 & C3-121
PASSENGER INTERNATIONAL TERMINAL
SHANGHAI,
Guangzhou:
GUANGCHOU AIRCRAFT MNTC AND ENGINEERING CO LTD
GUANGZHOU NEW BAIYUN
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
GUANGZHOU, 510407
GUANGZHOU HANGXIN AVIONICS COMPANY LTD
NO. 2 KEXIN ROAD
TIANHE DISTRICT
GUANGZHOU, 510665
plus Xian, Beijing, etc.
And of course, there's HAECO, which has had previous contracts maintaining
USAF C-130s.
As for aircraft parts, Douglas started using Chinese components made in
Shanghai about 25 years ago, starting with nosewheel landing gear doors.
There's a quarter-of-a-century of a track record with FAA certification in
that location alone.
Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates you've
got some other agenda --
Regards --
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
>> China is
>> that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
>> the
>> lowest possible cost without regard for quality. The cost of doing
>> business in
>> China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
>> and
>> for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
>> regulation.
>>
>>>There really is no reason
>>>in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
>>>salary.
>>
>> More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor. It pays for high-quality
>> steel.
>> (How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?)
>> It
>> pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
>> products
>> in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
>> to,
>> wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
>> their
>> surroundings clean.)
>
> I agree about the lower cost due to lack of regulation and cheaper labor.
> While a lot of stuff coming from China is crap, they are also very capable
> of turning out high quality goods also. We use some products made in
> Korea and China that are superior than what we can get in the US. The
> days of making generalizations that China = crap are pretty much gone.
>
> Right now a cargo plane from Korea is bringing in some tooling we ordered.
> (better quality at half the price in a third the time) One of the US
> companies we requested information from has not even provided a quote yet.
> One day they will be out of business and blame others for their plight.
Among my travels I have visited every province in China, and speak Mandarin
and Cantonese. I had started to think I was the only one who recognized
that China produces low end AND high end products. The product specs define
what components are used, and a skilled worker in a Chinese production
facility is almost certainly a more skilled and experienced worker than the
counterpart in a U.S. plant, but probably also better educated, as well.
You only have to go into some of the U.S. factories -- especially in the SE
U.S., to realize how little education or work ethic "our" workers have.
Side thoughts -- (a) if Chinese tools are so bad, how is it that Chinese
wood products -- especially wood carved products -- or of such exceptional
quality?
(b) Perhaps it's a lack of government (e.g., OSHA) interference. The
Heritage Foundation a few years ago found that in terms of economic freedom,
a Chinese special administration area placed first (MOST free!) in the
world. Singapore was second. The U.S. placed fourth.
(c) Did you know that the Chinese refrigerator producer, Haier -- a
world-class producer -- has a plant in South Carolina so that it can better
handle the U.S. market? Are Haier refrigerators now a U.S. or a Chinese
product?
(d) The problem is multi-faceted -- an under-educated U.S. workforce which
lacks a world-class work ethic, an education system that produces these
unmotivated and unready graduates, a standard of management that does not
motivate or make up the shortfalls of the educational system, and a
political system that can't (or won't) address these problems.
Regards --
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
It doe's and no i am not!
The
>reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
>the products for the what they are really worth.
agreed
There really is no reason
>in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
>salary.
this is also true
I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over
>seas manufacturers.
possibly
It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the
>workers here think that they should be paid rocket science wages.
>
Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
than it does there. lets not forget that! And ummm... do ya think that
300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
it built cheeper in china? I think not.
More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.
skeez
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Evidently, you have very little experience with Chinese-made tools - or
> else
> you have *no* experience with anything *else* to provide a basis for
> comparison.
Wrong on both counts.
Every body is capable of building quality and trash. I have seen an equal
amount from just about every where.
>>The
>>reason more is going to China is because the Chinese are willing to build
>>the products for the what they are really worth.
> What a load of utter nonsense. The reason more production is going to
> China is
> that more and more manufacturers are trying to get their products made at
> the
> lowest possible cost without regard for quality.
Lowest cost yes, but a a quality that the public is willing to put up with
or settle for.
The cost of doing business in
> China is very low for at least two reasons: 1) very low cost of labor -
> and
> for a good reason, I might add - and 2) little or no environmental
> regulation.
Yeah. Low cost of labor by those willing to do the work.
>>There really is no reason
>>in the world that a nail gun should cost $300, other than to pay a high
>>salary.
>
> More nonsense. It pays for *skilled* labor.
It does not require that kind of skill to do repeated assembly.
It pays for high-quality steel. Probably not $30 worth of steel unless the
steel was manufactured by over paid workers.
> (How many times have you twisted the head off of a Chinese-made screw?)
I am betting no more than a low quality American screw.
Country origin has absolutely no factor over resulting quality.
It > pays for a clean environment. (Of course it costs less to manufacture
products
> in a country that allows the factory to just dump whatever crap they want
> to,
> wherever they want to, than in a country that requires factories to keep
> their
> surroundings clean.).
Still THAT has nothing to do with over paid workers.
Until we start blaming ourselves for our own problems in pricing and
quality, we will remain in this situation.
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:05:39 GMT, "World Traveler" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Side thoughts
[snip]
>(c) Did you know that the Chinese refrigerator producer, Haier -- a
>world-class producer -- has a plant in South Carolina so that it can better
>handle the U.S. market? Are Haier refrigerators now a U.S. or a Chinese
>product?
Heh. A few years back my neighbor gave me a ration of shit for "not
buying American" when I traded in my Canadian-assembled Oldsmobile for
an Acura...made in Ohio.
Lee
In article <[email protected]>, "World Traveler" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>[snip]
>>
>> Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
>> labor.
>>
>[snip]
>
>That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, --
>just as they do in the U.S.!!
One major difference is that a substantial fraction of the prison labor
force in China is people who were imprisoned for expressing their political or
religious beliefs. We don't do that here.
>
>Things operate differently in China and it's a mistake to take single
>examples out of context. For example, standard procedure in a hospital is
>for the patient (or family) to provide the meals
It's also standard procedure for the government to bill the next-of-kin for
the cost of the bullet used in executing a political prisoner. So what?
>; the military grows its own
>crops; cities and provinces get involved in commercial ventures as
>profit-making enterprises. Everyone is producing and looking for that edge
>to make themselves more profitable.
Pretty much standard operating procedure in societies that have been
impoverished by decades of Communist rule. Everybody's scrabbling to try to
make a yuan, because they have to eat.
>The Air Force operates commercial
>vegetable farms and a commercial airline (China United Airline); Chengdu
>city was a partner with Hughes to develop the cell telephone network -- for
>Chengdu city.
How comforting. What's your point?
>
>But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor
>is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S.
>license plates and street signs??
I don't worry about US license plates and street signs because:
a) those products are not in unfair competition with private industry in the
consumer marketplace;
b) prisoners in the US are not slaves, they're actually paid for their labor;
and
c) prisoners in the US are in jail because they committed crimes, not because
they criticize the government or practice a religion that is not officially
approved.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
"skeezics" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:19 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>If you think made in China means poor quality, you are sadly mistaken.
>
> It doe's and no i am not!
No id does not and yes you are.
>>
>
> Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here
> than it does there. lets not forget that!
You ever stop to think why that is so, could it be because labor gets paid
more than its production value?
And ummm... do ya think that
> 300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets
> it built cheeper in china? I think not.
If the American worker building that gun would sell work for a wage that is
equal to the skill level required you would see a lot of stuff drop in
price.
> More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise
> for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger
> profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look
> for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son
> sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that
> money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by
> this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and
> sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.
If labor was a reasonable cost this would have never had to happen.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You should be leading by example. The average Chinese worker makes about
> 18
> cents an hour. If you're charging more than 20 cents, you are part of the
> problem. I said $6.00 because that is about average minimum wage (try to
> live on it).
Well I will agree that I am part of the problem.
"World Traveler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> [snip]
> >
> > Wake up. A lot of the stuff coming out of China is produced by prison
> > labor.
> >
> [snip]
>
> That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in
China, --
> just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but
>
> it's a gross overstatement to say that "a lot" of the exports are
> prison-produced. Prison products are sold in the local marketplace to
raise
> money to operate the prisons -- to that extent they are self-supporting
> rather than dependent upon tax dollars.
How benevolent. . .
>
> Things operate differently in China and it's a mistake to take single
> examples out of context. For example, standard procedure in a hospital is
> for the patient (or family) to provide the meals; the military grows its
own
> crops; cities and provinces get involved in commercial ventures as
> profit-making enterprises. Everyone is producing and looking for that
edge
> to make themselves more profitable.
Does this include wholesale stealing of intellectual property as well....?
> The Air Force operates commercial
> vegetable farms and a commercial airline (China United Airline); Chengdu
> city was a partner with Hughes to develop the cell telephone network --
for
> Chengdu city.
Hmm - must be a bunch of nice guys. . . no chance of rampant corruption in
China I take it. . .
BillyB
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So, you pay yourself what? About $6.00 per hour?
Sometimes. Yes.
Seldom more than $25.
"Knothead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>
> Depends on your management structure. Sometimes they actually do earn
> their
> keep. Not saying every company is but I sub to a company thats lean and
> pays
> well, management and labor both but that is a pretty involved story and
> one
> you don't hear very often. The problem lies more in the definition of
> skilled labor. I know a guy that works in a GM manufacturing plant that
> makes about $32 an hour to stick a bolt in a threaded insert and buzz it
> down with an impact wrench I have seen PBS specials that demonstrate
> monkeys
> can work at a higher capacity. Don't take it the wrong way, I like Tim and
> am glad he has a good paying job. I do bite my tongue every time he
> bitches
> about jobs going overseas though. Compared to another fella I know that
> makes about the same money working high steel you really do have to wonder
> about the definition of skilled worker. Me I'm management and labor all
> rolled into one so I don't really have a good opinion.....
The exact point I was making. And I wonder how long it took to learn that
skill of screwing a bolt into that insert? ;~) The management can be
blamed equally for having poor working conditions years ago and letting the
problem get to this point. Unfortunately there are too many that believe
they have a right to earn more than the people doing the same job in another
country for 90% less. I retired from upper automotive management at 40. I
now work doing woodworking for a fraction of what I was being paid. It was
my choice and I accept the lower wages. Actually I am self employed and
charge what I feel the work is actually worth and not what I can get.
[snip]
> Then IMO either you haven't been looking very hard, or your ability to
> distinguish quality from trash is impaired. Do you *seriously* contend
> that
> the average quality level of tools made in China and India is on a par
> with
> those made in Germany, Canada, or the U.S.?
>>
[snip]
> Unfortunately, *you* are a large part of that problem, with your obstinate
> and
> ridiculous belief that the quality of Chinese-made products is on a par
> with
> those made elsewhere. It's quite apparent that, like millions of other
> Americans, you can't tell the difference.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Look again. The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from
China, built to FAA certification. There are FAA certified aviation
production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which draw
customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of their
work. The computer on which you read this msg probably was at least
partially built in China. How's that for differentiating quality and trash?
It isn't the ethnicity of the worker that establishes the quality of a
product, it's the design and management decisions made that guide the
worker, and the q.c. and management oversight of the production process.
What China has been lacking in is enough capital to build a modernized
production base. Much of that capital is being received now from overseas
or from counterparts in Taiwan. With enough capital investment, the current
Chinese economic boom is just the leading edge of the wave. Regards --
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>World Traveler wrote:
>....
>> Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates you've
>> got some other agenda --
>....
>
>Not necessarily...simply being uninformed is more likely the culprit.
Hardly. The "culprit" is my desire to not spend what little money I have on
things that don't last, combined with my reluctance to purchase the products
of slave labor.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?