Thanks for the replies so far.
This is a renovation project. The substrates are varied. I have a
couple of cabinets with unfaced particleboard. I have several of the
new ones that are melamine-faced particleboad. I have some endpanels
that are plywood.
I had picked up water-based contact cement. Am I reading correctly
that this is NOT a good product to use?
Because the cabinets are already mounted, I don't think that PVA wood
glue will work because there will be no way to apply clamping pressure
to most of the panels.
The reason I was asking about a primer coat of the contact cement is
that I've seen laminate unglue from kitchen upper cabinets where a
kettle boiled frequently. I'm thinking the steam was a bad think for
the glue, and I was thinking the primer coat would make a more solid
glue bond.
Steve
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:09:22 -0600, the inscrutable Duane Bozarth
<[email protected]> spake:
>Mr Fixit eh wrote:
>>
>> I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin ...
>
>That's not the right adhesive for the job...contact cement will not be
>successful in the long run for the application. Been several letters to
>editor in FWW over the last few years of veneer/finish failures after
>using contact cement for veneer work.
>
>Use a regular wood glue w/ perhaps a longer open time to provide more
>spreading time.
Either glue works fine. I contact cemented my luaun door skins on my
kitchen cabinets in '84 or so and they were holding fast through
Feb of 2002, when I moved out. Oh, I used solvent-based contact
cement and do so today. I've heard too many horror stories to try the
waterborne crap.
-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com
Mr Fixit eh wrote:
>
> I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin ...
That's not the right adhesive for the job...contact cement will not be
successful in the long run for the application. Been several letters to
editor in FWW over the last few years of veneer/finish failures after
using contact cement for veneer work.
Use a regular wood glue w/ perhaps a longer open time to provide more
spreading time.
In article <[email protected]>,
GerryG <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think you will find that, the thicker the coating of CCement,
> the weaker the bond, due to this flexibility.
For sure.... too thick is bad....
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:25:29 -0500, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> GerryG <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> No, you have both. The shellac will bond very tightly to the particle board,
>> and that bond will be stronger than the material itself. Contact cement,
>> unlike wood glue, is _not_ designed to bond a porous surface, at least not
>> with its full strength.
>> GerryG
>
>That would be the point of thinning the CCement, Gerry. To allow the
>cement to soak into the porous surface creating serious adhesion.
>
>Try it on a test piece. The particle board will fail lonf before the
>glue joint. I'm not so sure of that happening with shellac... but that
>is just a hunch.
>
>The question here has become; how strong is the bond between ccement and
>shellac. I don't have an answer for that.
>
>0?0
>
>Rob
Ahh...well, that brings up the question of just how CCement works as opposed
to wood glue or shellac. Yes, I agreed that thinning the first coat of CCement
would improve the bond. However, I asserted that a bond of CCement to shellac
would be even stronger. We know that CCement will stay slightly flexible after
it cures, as opposed to either wood glue or shellac, both of which will be
rather hard. I think you will find that, the thicker the coating of CCement,
the weaker the bond, due to this flexibility. From another perspective, for
porous surfaces like wood, we tend to prefer wood glue and not CCement
whenever possible. However, for gluing plastic laminate, the choice would be
different.
GerryG
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:32:42 -0500, Kenneth
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:39:44 GMT, GerryG
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>IMO, very nice advice from Robatoy.
>>
>>The purpose of the primer on wood for contact cement is to seal the surface,
>>so the cement can sit on top and not be absorbed. Some people use a thinned
>>coat of contact cement first, others may just put on several coats. Since the
>>solvent will melt itself, I'd suggest using shellac or any other sealer. As
>>for thinning and coats, you just need enough to fully seal the surface of the
>>wood, and it should be roughed up before applying the contact cement. For
>>particle board, two coats of primer are often better than one thicker coat.
>>
>>GerryG
>>
>>On 17 Mar 2005 07:03:11 -0800, "Mr Fixit eh" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>To what degree would you thin a primer coat? 50:50 with contact cement
>>>thinner? Or would that be too thin?
>>>
>>>Steve
>
>Howdy,
>
>I don't challenge anything you have written, but I do have
>questions about it:
>
>Suppose I use a coat of shellac as a sealer. Then, over
>that, I put the contact cement.
>
>Am I not then using the bonding strength of the shellac
>rather than the bonding strength of the cement?
>
>Thanks for your comments,
No, you have both. The shellac will bond very tightly to the particle board,
and that bond will be stronger than the material itself. Contact cement,
unlike wood glue, is _not_ designed to bond a porous surface, at least not
with its full strength.
GerryG
If painted, or poly type finish, then sand with 80grit to 100grit. You're
looking to get rid of any gloss on the surface. Vacuum the surface, then use
a tack cloth, then use the contact cement. A smooth, clean surface is what
you're after.
No primer necessary, just prepare the substrate.
"Mr Fixit eh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin to face the
> exposed sides of my new kitchen cabinets.
>
> Is there any advantage of putting on a 'primer' coat and letting it dry
> 24 hours before putting on the final coat of contact cement?
>
> Steve
>
In article <[email protected]>,
"Mr Fixit eh" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin to face the
> exposed sides of my new kitchen cabinets.
>
> Is there any advantage of putting on a 'primer' coat and letting it dry
> 24 hours before putting on the final coat of contact cement?
>
> Steve
>
Yes, assuming it is put on thinned so it has an opportunity to soak in,
say in the case of MDF or plywood.
If it is scuffed (80 grit in a beltsander) melamine, it won't help.
In article <[email protected]>,
Duane Bozarth <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>
> ...re: contact cement and (unspecified) veneer...
>
> > It would be okay to use if it was 1/8' ply. If using 1/8 solid wood, use
> > wood glue.
>
> I'd still be nervous w/ contact cement for wood-to-wood...just isn't
> it's purpose.
I agree that in general use it wouldn't be my first choice either. But
in the OP's application that method has worked great for me for 30
years...oh..and that is solvent based Contact Cement.
The contact cement that I have used for the last 6 years, is blown on
with an airless gun which comes with the BBQ-propane-sized tank. Few
volatiles and lots of solids. Not enough liquid to soak through.
Sticks like dogsnot to a screen door.
Take a look.
http://www.mcfaddens.com/Workshop/imperialspray.htm
And because it is airless, there is no overspray (you can miss,of
course) and it is very portable for job-site use.
In article <[email protected]>,
Duane Bozarth <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mr Fixit eh wrote:
> >
> > I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin ...
>
> That's not the right adhesive for the job...contact cement will not be
> successful in the long run for the application. Been several letters to
> editor in FWW over the last few years of veneer/finish failures after
> using contact cement for veneer work.
>
> Use a regular wood glue w/ perhaps a longer open time to provide more
> spreading time.
It would be okay to use if it was 1/8' ply. If using 1/8 solid wood, use
wood glue.
In article <[email protected]>,
"Mr Fixit eh" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks for the replies so far.
>
> This is a renovation project. The substrates are varied. I have a
> couple of cabinets with unfaced particleboard. I have several of the
> new ones that are melamine-faced particleboad. I have some endpanels
> that are plywood.
It is absolutely okay to use contact cement with 1/8" plywood.
The melamine must be scuffed to give the adhesive some 'tooth'.
80 grit is the absolute minimum, 36 grit even better. You can scratch
the snot out of it with a rasp, the 1/8" plywood will not telegraph
irregulaties like that.
> I had picked up water-based contact cement. Am I reading correctly
> that this is NOT a good product to use?
There are but a few applications where water-based contact is worth
bothering with. Yours isn't one of them.... certainly not anywhere near
melamine, scuffed or not.
>
[snippered]
> and I was thinking the primer coat would make a more solid
> glue bond.
...and I think you are right, but not too thick. Too thick is almost as
bad as too thin....almost.
That is more a function of the heat than the water in steam. A heat gun
works great to remove laminate after it has been stuck on and needs to
be removed for whatever reason DAMHIKT.
When you apply contact cement by brush, make the strokes on each surface
go at 90 degrees from each other... then let it dry till it barely
leaves a fingerprint.... quite dry-ish, really. Use some dowels or
strips of a non-shedding material (NOT particle board) to keep the panel
away from the surface to be bonded. Once aligned, slowly remove the
'spacers' one-by-one.
In article <[email protected]>,
"Mr Fixit eh" <[email protected]> wrote:
> To what degree would you thin a primer coat? 50:50 with contact cement
> thinner? Or would that be too thin?
>
> Steve
>
Sorry...I was away from this thread for a bit.....
I think that would be too thin. 80-20 maybe 70-30.
Depends on the brand of CCement as well.
Play with it a little.
In article <[email protected]>,
GerryG <[email protected]> wrote:
> No, you have both. The shellac will bond very tightly to the particle board,
> and that bond will be stronger than the material itself. Contact cement,
> unlike wood glue, is _not_ designed to bond a porous surface, at least not
> with its full strength.
> GerryG
That would be the point of thinning the CCement, Gerry. To allow the
cement to soak into the porous surface creating serious adhesion.
Try it on a test piece. The particle board will fail lonf before the
glue joint. I'm not so sure of that happening with shellac... but that
is just a hunch.
The question here has become; how strong is the bond between ccement and
shellac. I don't have an answer for that.
0?0
Rob
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 19:39:44 GMT, GerryG
<[email protected]> wrote:
>IMO, very nice advice from Robatoy.
>
>The purpose of the primer on wood for contact cement is to seal the surface,
>so the cement can sit on top and not be absorbed. Some people use a thinned
>coat of contact cement first, others may just put on several coats. Since the
>solvent will melt itself, I'd suggest using shellac or any other sealer. As
>for thinning and coats, you just need enough to fully seal the surface of the
>wood, and it should be roughed up before applying the contact cement. For
>particle board, two coats of primer are often better than one thicker coat.
>
>GerryG
>
>On 17 Mar 2005 07:03:11 -0800, "Mr Fixit eh" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>To what degree would you thin a primer coat? 50:50 with contact cement
>>thinner? Or would that be too thin?
>>
>>Steve
Howdy,
I don't challenge anything you have written, but I do have
questions about it:
Suppose I use a coat of shellac as a sealer. Then, over
that, I put the contact cement.
Am I not then using the bonding strength of the shellac
rather than the bonding strength of the cement?
Thanks for your comments,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
IMO, very nice advice from Robatoy.
The purpose of the primer on wood for contact cement is to seal the surface,
so the cement can sit on top and not be absorbed. Some people use a thinned
coat of contact cement first, others may just put on several coats. Since the
solvent will melt itself, I'd suggest using shellac or any other sealer. As
for thinning and coats, you just need enough to fully seal the surface of the
wood, and it should be roughed up before applying the contact cement. For
particle board, two coats of primer are often better than one thicker coat.
GerryG
On 17 Mar 2005 07:03:11 -0800, "Mr Fixit eh" <[email protected]> wrote:
>To what degree would you thin a primer coat? 50:50 with contact cement
>thinner? Or would that be too thin?
>
>Steve
I'd say yes/no/maybe. Contact cement often works well, when-and-only-when it's
properly applied. But he has us guessing on the substrate here. Another issue
is the condition of the panels, their grain and their size. With large panels
that thick, you may have problems with contact cement if the grain is wild and
the panels are not sealed well, or maybe not. And if the substrate's wood and
some panels are large, and the cabinets already in place, it may be rather
difficult to use regular wood glue due to clamping issues, or maybe not. And
of course there's the warping due to any moisture applied to only one side,
which may be harder to deal with for 1/8 panels then for thinner laminate, or
maybe not.
About the only solid conclusion I can offer is that, when I tested them
side-by-side, the solvent-based contact cement is significantly stronger. I do
still use the water based stuff, but only on certain small jobs. I also
suspect that the solvent-based contact cement you used in '84 was better than
most stuff available today.
GerryG
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 16:45:19 -0800, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:09:22 -0600, the inscrutable Duane Bozarth
><[email protected]> spake:
>
>>Mr Fixit eh wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm using contact cement to attach an 1/8 inch oak skin ...
>>
>>That's not the right adhesive for the job...contact cement will not be
>>successful in the long run for the application. Been several letters to
>>editor in FWW over the last few years of veneer/finish failures after
>>using contact cement for veneer work.
>>
>>Use a regular wood glue w/ perhaps a longer open time to provide more
>>spreading time.
>
>Either glue works fine. I contact cemented my luaun door skins on my
>kitchen cabinets in '84 or so and they were holding fast through
>Feb of 2002, when I moved out. Oh, I used solvent-based contact
>cement and do so today. I've heard too many horror stories to try the
>waterborne crap.
>
>
>-
>Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
> http://diversify.com