What to do with poor quality cabinets

On Mar 6, 10:31=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 06:32:35 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Mar 5, 12:14=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:51:25 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >Sam Takoy wrote:
> >> >> Hi,
>
> >> >> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live i=
n a
> >> >> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> >> >> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> >> >> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> >> >> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height=
,
> >> >> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and croo=
ked
> >> >> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> >> >> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> >> >> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> >> >> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed t=
hat
> >> >> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> >> >> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot havi=
ng
> >> >> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> >> >> this project to an end.
>
> >> >> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, =
if
> >> >> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> >> >> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court coul=
d
> >> >> base its decision on?
>
> >> >> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> >> >> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> >> >Some of the things you mention could be subjective; the reveals, e.g.
> >> >Others might be nit-picky...how much out of square?...tearout where?.=
..what
> >> >sort of finish damage? =A0Regardless - from what you've said - I woul=
dn't be
> >> >kissing off 25K!
>
> >> >If it were me, I would first make a detailed list of the things I fin=
d
> >> >wrong. =A0I would then contact the maker and politely and calmly expr=
ess my
> >> >dissatisfaction, explaining what I found wrong and asking him what he=
would
> >> >propose.
>
> >> >If what he proposed was unsatisfactory I would photograph them; I wou=
ld then
> >> >photograph similar areas on work I found OK in order to contrast the =
two.
> >> >And I'm talking decent photos, not fuzzy, under/over exposed ones. =
=A0If out
> >> >of square, *SHOW* (in the photo) that it is and how much. =A0If you h=
ave to
> >> >hire a photographer it can be money well spent but do NOT hire a port=
rait
> >> >photographer; preferably, hire one who has experience in forensics; i=
f that
> >> >isn't possible, then a commercial photographer and explain exactly wh=
at you
> >> >want the photos to show and why you are having them made.
>
> >> > Finally, I would do what Swingman suggested...get written, detailed =
quotes
> >> >from others to fix what is wrong. =A0By "detailed" I mean things like=
, "Repair
> >> >damaged finish on left front door front..."...detailed. =A0As detaile=
d as
> >> >possible. =A0You need those in order to show the extent of your damag=
es but
> >> >they could also help *prove* the damages along with the photos (and t=
he
> >> >cabinets themselves but photos are easier to take to court :). =A0It =
would
> >> >also be useful if you could show that specs in the original contract =
were
> >> >not followed.
>
> >> >Depending upon the cost to make you whole, I would then talk to a law=
yer IF
> >> >the amount is greater than the max in your small claim court. =A0Have=
no
> >> >doubt, a lawyer will be costing money; if you can use small claims an=
d if
> >> >you feel competent to prove damages than personally I would go that r=
oute.
>
> >> >Someone mentioned the possibility that even if you sued you might not=
be
> >> >able to collect...the "blood out of a turnip" thing. =A0That's true b=
ut
> >> >whoever built them probably has a truck and/or car; liens can be plac=
ed on
> >> >them after obtaining a judgment. =A0Ditto his house (if not a renter)=
,
> >> >equipment, etc. =A0Bank accounts can be attached. =A0IOW, you may not=
get the
> >> >judgment paid immediately but eventually it will be.
>
> >> >There is also something known as "examination of a judgment debtor" w=
hereby
> >> >he can be called into court, sworn and questioned by you (or lawyer) =
to
> >> >determine exactly what he has and where it is; refusal to answer or l=
ies can
> >> >bring jail time.
>
> >> >I hope things work out for you. =A0I know you are disappointed - espe=
cially
> >> >after being involved with the kitchen for three years - and I feel fo=
r you.
> >> >I hope he isn't a corporation.
>
> >> One question that has not been asked and needs to be answered.
> >> =A0Did your cabinet maker also INSTALL the cabinets? Or did you instal=
l
> >> them as part of your three year kitchen renovation.
>
> >> Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >If the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are
> >defective regardless of who installed them. =A0Yes, some
> >of the defects he has could possibly be blamed on
> >installation, but handles at the wrong height, incorrect
> >hinge mortising, etc is going to be hard to pin on
> >the installer. =A0And he does not have to prove any of
> >that beyond a reasonable doubt, he just needs to prove
> >it more likely than not it's the fault of the cabinet maker.
> >It would also help if he has pictures of
> >the cabinets before they were installed, showing the
> >defects. =A0If they were defective, I sure would have
> >taken a picture of them immediately and if they
> >were bad enough I would have refused delivery.
>
> >One thing that is not mentioned is what is the position
> >of the guy who built them? =A0 Does he deny there are
> >defects? =A0 Has he even been asked to make them right?
> >Courts expect in most cases for you to try to work
> >with the guy to give him a chance to correct them
> >before coming to court.
>
> >First thing I would do is what someone else suggested.
> >Get in an expert cabinet guy
> >and get an estimate of what it takes to make it right,
> >ie can they be fixed for $2,000 or are they so bad
> >that you'd have to start all over.
>
> >The good news for you is that PA has a high small
> >claims court limit of $12,000. =A0In many states it's very
> >low, like $3,000. =A0 IMO, small claims is going to be
> >your only viable option. =A0You could recover up to
> >$12,000 without legal fees, no lawyer is necessary.
> >If the cabinets can be made right without doing it all
> >over, that should cover it.
>
> >If you went to regular court and won the entire $25K,
> >after legal fees you likely wouldn't net much more
> >anyway. =A0And if you lose, you'd be out the legal fees.
> >I also doubt paying a lawyer to look into it and send
> >threatening letters is going to do much good. =A0If you
> >do go with a lawyer, I'd get a clear cap UP FRONT
> >on what you're going to pay him or you'll be having
> >the next dispute with the lawyer when you get a bill
> >for $2K without anything having been resolved.
>
> >As others have pointed out, winning and collecting
> >are two different things. =A0Shysters like this often are
> >experts at hiding assets, like putting houses, cars,
> >and bank accounts in others names. =A0Or he could wind
> >up declaring bankruptcy before you get to court, etc.
> >The other important thing here is what form of business
> >it is, ie sole proprietorship, corporation, etc. =A0That will
> >determine the entity you can sue and possibly collect
> >from.
>
> >With small claims, it will not cost you much to try
> >to get made whole. =A0Make sure you document
> >everything with excellent photos, phone call records,
> >etc. =A0Show records of how many times you've
> >called him. =A0With regard to phone calls, if PA allows taping
> >with one party consent, then I'd tape any calls you
> >have with him, if that's still possible. =A0 Save any
> >phone messages he leaves you. =A0A guy acting
> >like an unreasonable AH for the judge to hear can
> >only help your case. =A0If he says the problem with
> >the cabinets is X and later in court says it's Y,
> >you have him destroying his credibility.
> >And make sure you at least
> >have a notorized letter from an expert cabinet guy
> >detailing what is wrong with the cabinets and how
> >much it will cost to correct. =A0Ideally you'd want him
> >with you in small claims as a witness.
>
> >The thing you better have a good explanation for
> >is why he was paid in full. =A0And if the cabinets were
> >not all delivered at once, why you went ahead with
> >more work when the first ones were defective, etc.
>
> >If you want to put some time into it, you might be
> >able to recover something. =A0Whether you have the
> >time and inclination to do so is another issue. =A0Me,
> >I'd do it just to not let the skunk get away with it.
> >And often skunks like this just don't show up in
> >court, so you might win by default. =A0But then
> >collecting is another matter.
>
> =A0 OP did not say the hardware was at different levels on the doors -
> simply that they did not line up. Also said the reveals were all odf,
> etc etc. A perfectly square set of cabinets installed off square will
> have all of those symptoms - along with veneer tearouts at joints etc
> if they are built of MDF or chip-board covered with veneer.
>
> IF the OP installed them himself, or had a "blacksmith" put them in
> (nothing against blacksmiths when they are working with iron and a
> forge, but keep them away from my cabinetry unless they are also
> cabinet-makers) a perfectly good set of cabinets can be converted to a
> dumpsterload od course sawdust in a matter of an hour or two.- Hide quote=
d text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Neither you nor I are there to actually see the problems.
Many of them sound to me like they are more likely the
result of poor cabinets, rather than installation:

"poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and
crooked
drawers,"

Who, for example is more likely to have mortised the
hinges? The cabinet maker or the installer? And by handles
not at the same height, I gave him the benefit of the doubt
that he doesn't mean the cabinets themselves were hung
at random heights. But in any case, there is clearly enough
there that it could be the cabinets that are defective.

You on the other hand are jumping to totally unsupported
conclusions:

"If you installed them or a general laborer installed them rather than
the cabinetmaker I'm afraid you will not have a leg to stand on. If
the cabinetmaker supplied the installation crew you have recourse."

That is just plain wrong. If he has defects that are
due to the way they were built, then he has a case and there
is no requirement that the company who built the cabinets
install them. For all you know, he could have pictures that
he took of the defective cabinets sitting there BEFORE
they were installed. Or a bus load of nuns could have
been there to witness what they looked like when they
were delivered.

If he wants to purse it, it's up to a judge to decide who's right
and who's wrong. He could prevail in his case that the
cabinets are defective in a number of ways.

On Mar 5, 2:03=A0pm, Oren <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 07:15:41 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >And record, record, record. =A0Written records have value. They can be
> >your notes, taken at the time of any conversation, but keep records,
> >when necessary, send registered mail to make request to complete work
> >with return receipt [for you to show judge you tried to get work
> >completed]
>
> ..."if it ain't documented, it didn't happen." =A0Words I lived by in my
> former work.
>
> Include the W's:
>
> Who, What, When, Where, Why and Witnesses.
>
> >REMEMBER THIS:
> >You need to establish in these people's minds that you are a man of
> >your word, when you say you want something and pay for it, you expect
> >to get it. And, will not stop until everything is righteous.
>
> Squeaky wheel gets the grease :-\

You paid $25k for custom cabinets before any ofthem were delivered?
How dumb is that?

On Mar 5, 9:08 am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/5/2012 8:19 AM, Sam Takoy wrote:
>
> > I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> > recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> It's called between a rock and hard place.
>
> IMO, your best bet at this point is to at least try to do what you can
> to protect what equity you already have the cabinets as they exist, and
> without spending any more money.
>
> That is relatively easy to accomplish by immediately getting at least
> three quotes from reputable remodelers in your area with the idea of
> bringing the existing cabinet job up to a reasonable standard.
>
> Once you have a basis for that cost, you will then have information you
> need for either doing the work, or suing, or both.
>
> If you do decide to sue, that information will be necessary, and to your
> benefit, in any event.
>
> Run, don't walk, to get this done, immediately.

You should take this advice, carve it in stone and go like hell.
Those who
recommend legal resolution as a good cure for this watch too much
courtroom
drama TV and too many of the "Judge XXXXXX" shows. Sueing is a long,
painful process that often winds up with no satisfactory resolution.
As a retained expert witness on a few cases, myself and the attorneys
did OK, but their clients did not.

Even if the client was wronged, even if they received a judgement,
even if
court ordered the contractor to be liable and pay, most of the time
the client
received NOTHING. Some contractor, somewhere is sitting at home
saying, "well, let 'em sue. You can't get blood out of a stone".
Even if you win, you may not get a thing. And if the judge finds that
you might have had a hand in the problem, or lead the contractor to
believe that in some way you were ever
happy with his work, he may split the damages between you.

Locally (San Antonio, TX), most amateur Perry Masons are stunned to
find that in such cases attorneys are NOT interested in small payout
cases. To take the case at no cost to the client, there must be a
large payout, and their cut will in most cases be anywhere from 35 to
50%, depending on the difficulty of the case. With that in mind, most
require $1000 retainer to "look into the case" and $2500 to persue it
and write a nasty letter or two. If it goes to court, there is
usually another $5000 for prep fees to cover documentation, a day in
court, research for precedent, etc.

Time is of the essence. The longer you wait, the longer this will
look like
buyer's remorse to a judge/jury/arbiter. Take a lot of pictures
before you do
anything, including loading the cabinets up with "stuff".

+ IMO, your best bet at this point is to at least try to do what you
can
+ to protect what equity you already have the cabinets as they exist,
and
+ without spending any more money.

+ That is relatively easy to accomplish by immediately getting at
least
+ three quotes from reputable remodelers in your area with the idea of
+ bringing the existing cabinet job up to a reasonable standard.

That is easily the best, most well thought out response reflecting
practical experience. If you want to crap shoot a few hundred
(thousand?)
on the court system and attorneys along with another 3 years of your
life, go
ahead and start the legal process. If you can get doors rehung,
cabinets
rehung, hinges mortised an adjusted correctly, handles replaced and
have
it all done for a reasonable cost, do it, and consider it a lesson
learned.

As a remodeling contractor, I have taken down cabinets and reworked
them many,
many times. Sometimes from bad installs, but more often than not
because we
were saving the clients money by using a basically good build that
just
needed a tune up. Find the guy that can do that to get your estimates
from to
start. Try callign a local cabinet shop that doesn't hang their
cabinets for
a resource. Most cabinet shops around here don't hang their own
products, but
have a good group of guys that do it for them.

Good luck. Sorry for your problems... I know how painful this can
be. And
from the contractor's side, one idiot makes us all look bad.

Robert

On Mar 5, 7:19=A0am, Sam Takoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> this project to an end.
>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Sam

You need to seek legal advice.

Very carefully word your complaints as you present your complaint to
attorney.

It is my understanding that they are NOT allowed to put words into
your mouth, or suggest really aggressive recompense, else they appear
to be 'ambulance chasers', so they let you formulate your request for
satisfaction. Because you don't know all the ins and outs, you might
get the response to forget it. At this formative time, state simple
facts, THEN ask what are my rights, put the burden back onto the
attorney to tell you. You asked, so now he/she can tell you!

You are the plaintiff, the burden of proof is upon you. photos, repair
estimates from licensed professionals (several of them), construction
estimates for the original work request, copies of any signed
contracts.

You will be asked why you thought the work was acceptable enough to
pay the total before completion. Whether that payment represented your
implicit full satisfaction.

If this guy knows his scams, he will have laid a trail of entrapments
for you, that legally points to your tacit approvals.

You can claim naivety to an extent, but a lot of judges, will toss you
out of their court, UNLESS you are totally prepared:
1. you can claim you are naive, because this is first time hiring such
construction, and listened to recommendations - find out if the
recommendations were false, if true, then you might be able to claim
that this is a one time breach of quality on this otherwise
professional installer.
2. the original quote matches other quotes [not representing a super,
unrealistic bargain] and thus you expected some standard level of
quality - get photos, professional judgments [you have ALREADY shown
that your judgment cannot be counted upon, remove yourself from ANY
personal comments/attitudes, else a judge will attribute your request
in seeking satisfaction as vindictive revenge, and throw it out of his
court]
3. BE SPECIFIC - you MUST give the legal people handles to work with,
like what happened, what went wrong, and most importantly WHAT YOU
WANT NOW. Many people when going into court forget that key element,
don't leave actions up to them, if you ask for nothing you will get
nothing.
4. Often forgotten is the claim that this is your personal home [not
installed in a business] and therefore personal, something you must
look at everyday, and remember the 'bad' experiences - for some judges
[they are voted to be kept in office] that does have value.

Note: if you do NOT use the original installer to fix, you have to
establish why he is not capable of fixing [burden of proof upon
plaintiff]. You might be able to show other poor jobs. Or, that he is
just failing for you, like 3 unsuccessful attempts to correct, and he
is out. Something like that.

Two courses of action
1. rip out start over, refund total amount.and requires civil court
WITH an attorney
2. repair to acceptable level, make claim for repairs - there is a
necessary sequence for this action
a) you MUST make a request with time limit to the original supplier to
bring his work up to quality, after he refuses, or cannot, THEN you
proceed.
b) seek several written estimates, select reasonable one [you can
'average' estimates for repair to present to judge]

Assuming b) at less cost, go to Small Claims court [no attorney
required] file for compensation - and ASK for ANY reasonable expense,
even your time at $/hr to take all these actions. If you don't ask,
you won't get. A judge, may delete from total, but may not. Also,
pursue people personally, do not let them hide behind a 'corporate
entity' that can evaporate at the drop of a hat. I've seen people list
suppliers. You can't believe how much pressure a supplier can bring,
they don't want to take time to go to court, and they start looking at
this individual's account a bit closer, too.

And record, record, record. Written records have value. They can be
your notes, taken at the time of any conversation, but keep records,
when necessary, send registered mail to make request to complete work
with return receipt [for you to show judge you tried to get work
completed]

REMEMBER THIS:
You need to establish in these people's minds that you are a man of
your word, when you say you want something and pay for it, you expect
to get it. And, will not stop until everything is righteous.

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mar 6, 3:26 pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> If the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are
>>> defective regardless of who installed them.
>>
>> Errrrrr - Wrong. Properly made cabinets can indeed deform if hung
>> inproperly. So where does this "regardless of who installed them"
>> thing come from?
>
> Look, let's take this in context. Another poster, Clare, claimed
> that only if the cabinet company who made the cabinets installed
> them does the OP have recourse. In response to that I said
> that if the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are defective
> regardless of who installed them. Meaning if they were
> defective before being installed, then the OP had a legitimate
> claim against the cabinet supplier. Now if they were installed
> by someone else, I agree that complicates the case.
>

My bad - I misunderstood the intent of your statement. I trust you'll
simply be more careful next time. I don't like getting embarassed like
this...

>>
>>> Yes, some
>>> of the defects he has could possibly be blamed on
>>> installation,
>>
>> Ok - great contradiction of you first statement.
>
> No contradiction at all. I never said all the alleged defects
> were or were not the fault of who made them. Only that
> just because someone other than the company who made
> them installed them does not mean the OP has no
> recourse, which was what Clare stated.
>

See apology above - but please do work on being more careful next time...

>
>
>>
>>> but handles at the wrong height,
>>
>> Not stated by the OP
>
> "handles not at the same height"
>
> nitpicking now are we?
>

Me? Hell no - I don't do that. Read the archives - I'm the shit stirrer...

>
>>> incorrect
>>> hinge mortising,
>>
>> Not stated by the OP
>
> He stated:
>
> "poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), "
>
> more nitpicking

Ok - so maybe you're right. Geeze...



>
> It's not a could. To prevail in court it's a fact that you don't
> need to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.
>

For some things but not for all things. Fortunately - I haven't spent a lot
of time in court over my lifetime, but my limited experiences in this kind
of thing make me understand that it is more than reasonable doubt for this
kind of dispute.

>> Yup. But - the OP does not indicate if that was the case. Still lots
>> of unanswered questions.
>>
>
> So, why are you jumping all over me and nitpicking
> apart minor differences in words?
>

Sorry - was not jumping all over you. Certainly was not trying to nitpick.
Remember - I'm the shit stirrer, not the nitpicker. Others do that here.
Sheese - get it straight, will ya?


>
> And that of course is pure BS. There are plenty of people
> who get surprised by lawyers bills, just as they get surprised
> by mechanics or tradesmen.

But only because they set themselves up for that. These things are easily
discussed with a lawyer and equally easily understood - if one takes the
time to do so.

> In the case of lawyers, it can
> be even worse because they frequently bill by the hour.
> Are you there to watch how long that phone call really took?
> Or if it was necessary? Or how long he spent reviewing
> the documents you gave him? Good grief. There are
> plenty of lawyers that pad bills, run the clock and there
> are some that are outright crooks.

No contest on those points. Maybe I'm spoiled because I have a good,
reliable lawyer (actually a couple), that I can count on and that will be
upfront with me. There are never any surprises. If things are changing as
something unfolds, we talk more. I can't imagine not dealing with a lawyer
in that manner. Maybe other people do it differently.

>
> I'll give you one recent small example. A friend had a closing
> on a house. He called up several lawyers and got quotes.
> The one he selected quoted $1100 for her services.
> Half way through the
> process in the course of a discussion, she said "My paralegal
> is drawing up that... BTW, you're paying extra for her time."
> Now that is a good example of how a lawyer
> can screw you. You'd expect to pay for title work, FedEx,
> etc. But the paralegal that is doing the work you already
> paid an attorney for? Totally unethical.

Agreed. But - that's the kind of thing that should have been discussed and
understood upfront. Lawyers always charge by the minute (or less), and are
well known for their ability to create fees. One has to gain agreement with
them upfront. I can understand the surprise of someone who gets caught by
this the first time, but my point is only that it is avoidable. I never
encounter that kind of surprise. I never pay any extra for the efforts of a
paralegal. Your friend's story is almost appalling, but as harsh as it
sounds (unintentionally...), I'll be that friend does business differently
when he needs a lawyer again. Guess we all go through that kind of learning
experience.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Sam Takoy wrote:

>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>

Hey Sam - you can obviously get a lot of first hand experience based advice
from people here who are in the business, but in the end, you really should
be asking your questions of a lawyer. I'll bet that's what you hear from
the guys here as well...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 3/5/2012 9:42 AM, bob haller wrote:
> On Mar 5, 9:19 am, Sam Takoy<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
>> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
>> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
>> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
>> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
>> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
>> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>>
>> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
>> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
>> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
>> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
>> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
>> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
>> this project to an end.
>>
>> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
>> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
>> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
>> base its decision on?
>>
>> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
>> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>>
>> Many thanks in advance.
>>
>> Sam
>
> the person who made the cabinets may have no assets, so even if you
> win you may lose.
>
> how much did they cost? were the cabinets themselves 25 grand?

For once, I have to agree 100% with Haller. You lost a boat load of
money with the cabinets. Why let a lawyer pick your other pocket. I'm
sure the right lawyer can sue and win, but from experience I can tell
you that judgement doesn't put a dime in your pocket. This isn't the
first crappy job this guy has done, and he's probably been sued before,
possibly even a career criminal. He won't have one possession in his
name, nothing to attach.You'll wind up with two pieces of paper in your
possession, one that says you won a law suit, and the other, the bill
from your lawyer.

"Swingman" wrote
>
> Keep in mind this was crossposted to the wRec, where there is no
> shortage of the ill informed giving sight unseen, purely conjectural
> advice on issues with which they have no experience whatsoever.
>
Are you talking about cabinets or the GOP primaries? ;-)

On 3/5/2012 9:08 AM, Swingman wrote:

> IMO, your best bet at this point is to at least try to do what you can
> to protect what equity you already have the cabinets as they exist, and
> without spending any more money.
>
> That is relatively easy to accomplish by immediately getting at least
> three quotes from reputable remodelers in your area with the idea of
> bringing the existing cabinet job up to a reasonable standard.

AND ... you DO NOT need a lawyer to do this! If you hire one _before_
you do the above, you will be charged for the advice above that you
already have for free ... guaranteed!

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Mar 6, 3:26=A0pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > If the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are
> > defective regardless of who installed them.
>
> Errrrrr - Wrong. =A0Properly made cabinets can indeed deform if hung
> inproperly. =A0So where does this "regardless of who installed them" thin=
g
> come from?

Look, let's take this in context. Another poster, Clare, claimed
that only if the cabinet company who made the cabinets installed
them does the OP have recourse. In response to that I said
that if the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are defective
regardless of who installed them. Meaning if they were
defective before being installed, then the OP had a legitimate
claim against the cabinet supplier. Now if they were installed
by someone else, I agree that complicates the case.

>
> > Yes, some
> > of the defects he has could possibly be blamed on
> > installation,
>
> Ok - great contradiction of you first statement.

No contradiction at all. I never said all the alleged defects
were or were not the fault of who made them. Only that
just because someone other than the company who made
them installed them does not mean the OP has no
recourse, which was what Clare stated.



>
> > but handles at the wrong height,
>
> Not stated by the OP

"handles not at the same height"

nitpicking now are we?


> > incorrect
> > hinge mortising,
>
> Not stated by the OP

He stated:

"poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
hinges are not flush with the wood), "

more nitpicking

And tell us how the above and warped kitchen cabinet
doors are usually the result of installation. In my world, they
are usually the result of how they were made.


>
> > etc is going to be hard to pin on
> > the installer. =A0And he does not have to prove any of
> > that beyond a reasonable doubt, he just needs to prove
> > it more likely than not it's the fault of the cabinet maker.
>
> Could well be.

It's not a could. To prevail in court it's a fact that you don't
need to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.



>
> > It would also help if he has pictures of
> > the cabinets before they were installed, showing the
> > defects. =A0If they were defective, I sure would have
> > taken a picture of them immediately and if they
> > were bad enough I would have refused delivery.
>
> Yup. =A0But - the OP does not indicate if that was the case. =A0Still lot=
s of
> unanswered questions.
>

So, why are you jumping all over me and nitpicking
apart minor differences in words?


>
> > One thing that is not mentioned is what is the position
> > of the guy who built them? =A0 Does he deny there are
> > defects? =A0 Has he even been asked to make them right?
> > Courts expect in most cases for you to try to work
> > with the guy to give him a chance to correct them
> > before coming to court.
>
> Yup.
>
> > I'd get a clear cap UP FRONT
> > on what you're going to pay him or you'll be having
> > the next dispute with the lawyer when you get a bill
> > for $2K without anything having been resolved.
>
> I imagine things are different in different places, but as I said in a
> different post - this is pure bullsiht as a generalization. =A0Certainly,=
you
> can realize significant legal fees, but you can also speak to a lawyer to
> understand your position without any cost at all.

Only if the lawyer agrees to do that for free and you better
determine that upfront.



>=A0If anyone gets surprised
> by a $2K bill from a lawyer then they deserve that surprise. =A0Lawyers d=
o not
> surprise people with bills - it's all up front. =A0Shame on anyone that c=
an't
> understand that.
>

And that of course is pure BS. There are plenty of people
who get surprised by lawyers bills, just as they get surprised
by mechanics or tradesmen. In the case of lawyers, it can
be even worse because they frequently bill by the hour.
Are you there to watch how long that phone call really took?
Or if it was necessary? Or how long he spent reviewing
the documents you gave him? Good grief. There are
plenty of lawyers that pad bills, run the clock and there
are some that are outright crooks.

I'll give you one recent small example. A friend had a closing
on a house. He called up several lawyers and got quotes.
The one he selected quoted $1100 for her services.
Half way through the
process in the course of a discussion, she said "My paralegal
is drawing up that... BTW, you're paying extra for her time."
Now that is a good example of how a lawyer
can screw you. You'd expect to pay for title work, FedEx,
etc. But the paralegal that is doing the work you already
paid an attorney for? Totally unethical.

On Mar 5, 12:14=A0pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:51:25 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >Sam Takoy wrote:
> >> Hi,
>
> >> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> >> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> >> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> >> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> >> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> >> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> >> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> >> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> >> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> >> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> >> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> >> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> >> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> >> this project to an end.
>
> >> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> >> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> >> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> >> base its decision on?
>
> >> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> >> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> >Some of the things you mention could be subjective; the reveals, e.g.
> >Others might be nit-picky...how much out of square?...tearout where?...w=
hat
> >sort of finish damage? =A0Regardless - from what you've said - I wouldn'=
t be
> >kissing off 25K!
>
> >If it were me, I would first make a detailed list of the things I find
> >wrong. =A0I would then contact the maker and politely and calmly express=
my
> >dissatisfaction, explaining what I found wrong and asking him what he wo=
uld
> >propose.
>
> >If what he proposed was unsatisfactory I would photograph them; I would =
then
> >photograph similar areas on work I found OK in order to contrast the two=
.
> >And I'm talking decent photos, not fuzzy, under/over exposed ones. =A0If=
out
> >of square, *SHOW* (in the photo) that it is and how much. =A0If you have=
to
> >hire a photographer it can be money well spent but do NOT hire a portrai=
t
> >photographer; preferably, hire one who has experience in forensics; if t=
hat
> >isn't possible, then a commercial photographer and explain exactly what =
you
> >want the photos to show and why you are having them made.
>
> > Finally, I would do what Swingman suggested...get written, detailed quo=
tes
> >from others to fix what is wrong. =A0By "detailed" I mean things like, "=
Repair
> >damaged finish on left front door front..."...detailed. =A0As detailed a=
s
> >possible. =A0You need those in order to show the extent of your damages =
but
> >they could also help *prove* the damages along with the photos (and the
> >cabinets themselves but photos are easier to take to court :). =A0It wou=
ld
> >also be useful if you could show that specs in the original contract wer=
e
> >not followed.
>
> >Depending upon the cost to make you whole, I would then talk to a lawyer=
IF
> >the amount is greater than the max in your small claim court. =A0Have no
> >doubt, a lawyer will be costing money; if you can use small claims and i=
f
> >you feel competent to prove damages than personally I would go that rout=
e.
>
> >Someone mentioned the possibility that even if you sued you might not be
> >able to collect...the "blood out of a turnip" thing. =A0That's true but
> >whoever built them probably has a truck and/or car; liens can be placed =
on
> >them after obtaining a judgment. =A0Ditto his house (if not a renter),
> >equipment, etc. =A0Bank accounts can be attached. =A0IOW, you may not ge=
t the
> >judgment paid immediately but eventually it will be.
>
> >There is also something known as "examination of a judgment debtor" wher=
eby
> >he can be called into court, sworn and questioned by you (or lawyer) to
> >determine exactly what he has and where it is; refusal to answer or lies=
can
> >bring jail time.
>
> >I hope things work out for you. =A0I know you are disappointed - especia=
lly
> >after being involved with the kitchen for three years - and I feel for y=
ou.
> >I hope he isn't a corporation.
>
> One question that has not been asked and needs to be answered.
> =A0Did your cabinet maker also INSTALL the cabinets? Or did you install
> them as part of your three year kitchen renovation.
>
> =A0If you installed them or a general laborer installed them rather than
> the cabinetmaker I'm afraid you will not have a leg to stand on. =A0If
> the cabinetmaker supplied the installation crew you have recourse.- Hide =
quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are
defective regardless of who installed them. Yes, some
of the defects he has could possibly be blamed on
installation, but handles at the wrong height, incorrect
hinge mortising, etc is going to be hard to pin on
the installer. And he does not have to prove any of
that beyond a reasonable doubt, he just needs to prove
it more likely than not it's the fault of the cabinet maker.
It would also help if he has pictures of
the cabinets before they were installed, showing the
defects. If they were defective, I sure would have
taken a picture of them immediately and if they
were bad enough I would have refused delivery.

One thing that is not mentioned is what is the position
of the guy who built them? Does he deny there are
defects? Has he even been asked to make them right?
Courts expect in most cases for you to try to work
with the guy to give him a chance to correct them
before coming to court.

First thing I would do is what someone else suggested.
Get in an expert cabinet guy
and get an estimate of what it takes to make it right,
ie can they be fixed for $2,000 or are they so bad
that you'd have to start all over.

The good news for you is that PA has a high small
claims court limit of $12,000. In many states it's very
low, like $3,000. IMO, small claims is going to be
your only viable option. You could recover up to
$12,000 without legal fees, no lawyer is necessary.
If the cabinets can be made right without doing it all
over, that should cover it.

If you went to regular court and won the entire $25K,
after legal fees you likely wouldn't net much more
anyway. And if you lose, you'd be out the legal fees.
I also doubt paying a lawyer to look into it and send
threatening letters is going to do much good. If you
do go with a lawyer, I'd get a clear cap UP FRONT
on what you're going to pay him or you'll be having
the next dispute with the lawyer when you get a bill
for $2K without anything having been resolved.

As others have pointed out, winning and collecting
are two different things. Shysters like this often are
experts at hiding assets, like putting houses, cars,
and bank accounts in others names. Or he could wind
up declaring bankruptcy before you get to court, etc.
The other important thing here is what form of business
it is, ie sole proprietorship, corporation, etc. That will
determine the entity you can sue and possibly collect
from.

With small claims, it will not cost you much to try
to get made whole. Make sure you document
everything with excellent photos, phone call records,
etc. Show records of how many times you've
called him. With regard to phone calls, if PA allows taping
with one party consent, then I'd tape any calls you
have with him, if that's still possible. Save any
phone messages he leaves you. A guy acting
like an unreasonable AH for the judge to hear can
only help your case. If he says the problem with
the cabinets is X and later in court says it's Y,
you have him destroying his credibility.
And make sure you at least
have a notorized letter from an expert cabinet guy
detailing what is wrong with the cabinets and how
much it will cost to correct. Ideally you'd want him
with you in small claims as a witness.

The thing you better have a good explanation for
is why he was paid in full. And if the cabinets were
not all delivered at once, why you went ahead with
more work when the first ones were defective, etc.

If you want to put some time into it, you might be
able to recover something. Whether you have the
time and inclination to do so is another issue. Me,
I'd do it just to not let the skunk get away with it.
And often skunks like this just don't show up in
court, so you might win by default. But then
collecting is another matter.

On Mar 7, 3:39=A0pm, "m II" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I doubt a jury will decide in a small civil suit.
>
> ----------------
> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]=
glegroups.com...
> The burden of proof to prevail is NOT beyond reasonable doubt
> for a civil case. =A0It's by a preponderance of the evidence, ie
> tipping the scales in your favor, which is a much lower standard
> than the beyond a reasonable doubt standard of criminal court.


It doesn't matter whether it's a jury or a judge. The
standard of preponderance of the evidence applies
in either case.

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 06:19:52 -0800 (PST), Sam Takoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
>Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
>cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
>square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
>hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
>gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
>drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
>We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
>judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
>other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
>the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
>working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
>worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
>this project to an end.
>
>However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
>any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
>that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
>base its decision on?
>
>I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
>recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
>Many thanks in advance.

Questions:

Was the cabinetmaker an insured/bonded/licensed contractor?
If so, use the contractor's license board to go after him.

If not, ask for help from the city or state attorney general.

If the cabinetmaker is a member of local groups, bring it up at their
meetings. Ask the local media, especially TV, if they can help.

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 07:15:41 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>And record, record, record. Written records have value. They can be
>your notes, taken at the time of any conversation, but keep records,
>when necessary, send registered mail to make request to complete work
>with return receipt [for you to show judge you tried to get work
>completed]
>

..."if it ain't documented, it didn't happen." Words I lived by in my
former work.

Include the W's:

Who, What, When, Where, Why and Witnesses.

>REMEMBER THIS:
>You need to establish in these people's minds that you are a man of
>your word, when you say you want something and pay for it, you expect
>to get it. And, will not stop until everything is righteous.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease :-\

I doubt a jury will decide in a small civil suit.


----------------
wrote in message
news:e9ca62f8-e1ae-4f2e-a975-fe992da0ce7a@l14g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
The burden of proof to prevail is NOT beyond reasonable doubt
for a civil case. It's by a preponderance of the evidence, ie
tipping the scales in your favor, which is a much lower standard
than the beyond a reasonable doubt standard of criminal court.

You made a 25k mistake. Wow that's a lot of money for garbage.

Handles not at the same height? The other stuff might be considered
subjective...

Tearout on the veneer in a noticeable location or inside out of view?

Suing is a local thing. Each jurisdiction has their own view of this.
And what one considers acceptable versus what someone is nitpicking over
is subjective. So it's hard to say. It's hard to know without seeing
pictures.





On 3/5/2012 9:19 AM, Sam Takoy wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> this project to an end.
>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Sam

Sam Takoy wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> this project to an end.
>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Sam

Did you view his work for samples of his ability?
Did you specify style and quality?
Did you go to his shop and view the work done up to that point before
paying the rest of the money?

My advice is to use God's Word and make your decision.

bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29]
"Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever
takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. [30]
"Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours,
do not demand it back. [31] "And just as you want people to treat you,
treat them in the same way. Luke 6:28-31 (NASB)

Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in
the sight of all men. [18] If possible, so far as it depends on you, be
at peace with all men. [19] Never take your own revenge, beloved, but
leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine,
I will repay," says the Lord. Romans 12:17-19 (NASB)



There are other verses of course, and some he should read as well.

But that is my advice and you did ask everyone - it is *your* decision
what to do and how to do it.



--
Michael Joel

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,
His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made,
so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God,
they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became
futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:20-21 (NASB)


parksfamily2 ------ ---- --- gmail ----- ----- com
replace dashes with correct symbols

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "Sam Takoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:5d6bd113-0afb-4a42-9739-ebe41ac98795@cj6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> > Hi,
> >
> > Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> > Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> > cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> > square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> > hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> > gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> > drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
> >
> > We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> > judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> > other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> > the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> > working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> > worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> > this project to an end.
> >
> > However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> > any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> > that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> > base its decision on?
> >
> > I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> > recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
> >
> > Many thanks in advance.
> >
> > Sam
>
> You only made one mistakes,
> Always pay in 3rd's
> put in a Contract..
> that way you only out a same of $833.33 not all..
>
> First Check builder list for Materials.
> have him get the Materials to you home first,
> have him setup then pay first 3rd,
> remember the Materials came out of the first 3rd,
> so if the Materials $800, you own him $33.33
> if he has the Materials himself Check builder list,
> made shore it's all there.. then you own him $833.33
> That the first 1/3 to start the job
>
> Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List at 1/2 done,
> if he a good builder he be over
> 1/2 done maybe up to a 1/3 done when he ask for payment #two
> That the Sec. 1/3 at 1/2 done..
>
> On Completion Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List,
> and it have to be all Clean up then pay the last 3rd..
>
> 1/3 on completion..
>
>
> Look a true builder and Contractor will do this,
> If the do not believe ask you Banker or Insurers Co.
> For that make us Contractor do it all the time,
>
> That how they know that they are not made One Big mistakes...
>
>
> Materials $800, you own him $33.33
> here a red flag if Materials go pass the first 3rd,
> he under bided... And know how to Contractor a job....

You seem to be envisioning the guy setting up a cabinet shop in your
driveway and building the cabinets in place.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > says...
> >>
> >> "Sam Takoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:5d6bd113-0afb-4a42-9739-ebe41ac98795@cj6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> >> > Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> >> > cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> >> > square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> >> > hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> >> > gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> >> > drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
> >> >
> >> > We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> >> > judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> >> > other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> >> > the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> >> > working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> >> > worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> >> > this project to an end.
> >> >
> >> > However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> >> > any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> >> > that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> >> > base its decision on?
> >> >
> >> > I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> >> > recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
> >> >
> >> > Many thanks in advance.
> >> >
> >> > Sam
> >>
> >> You only made one mistakes,
> >> Always pay in 3rd's
> >> put in a Contract..
> >> that way you only out a same of $833.33 not all..
> >>
> >> First Check builder list for Materials.
> >> have him get the Materials to you home first,
> >> have him setup then pay first 3rd,
> >> remember the Materials came out of the first 3rd,
> >> so if the Materials $800, you own him $33.33
> >> if he has the Materials himself Check builder list,
> >> made shore it's all there.. then you own him $833.33
> >> That the first 1/3 to start the job
> >>
> >> Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List at 1/2 done,
> >> if he a good builder he be over
> >> 1/2 done maybe up to a 1/3 done when he ask for payment #two
> >> That the Sec. 1/3 at 1/2 done..
> >>
> >> On Completion Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List,
> >> and it have to be all Clean up then pay the last 3rd..
> >>
> >> 1/3 on completion..
> >>
> >>
> >> Look a true builder and Contractor will do this,
> >> If the do not believe ask you Banker or Insurers Co.
> >> For that make us Contractor do it all the time,
> >>
> >> That how they know that they are not made One Big mistakes...
> >>
> >>
> >> Materials $800, you own him $33.33
> >> here a red flag if Materials go pass the first 3rd,
> >> he under bided... And know how to Contractor a job....
> >
> > You seem to be envisioning the guy setting up a cabinet shop in your
> > driveway and building the cabinets in place.
>
>
> I can.......

Well remind me never to order cabinets from *you*.

On 3/5/2012 11:05 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/5/12 9:08 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 3/5/2012 8:19 AM, Sam Takoy wrote:
>>
>>> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
>>> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>>
>> It's called between a rock and hard place.
>>
>> IMO, your best bet at this point is to at least try to do what you can
>> to protect what equity you already have the cabinets as they exist, and
>> without spending any more money.
>>
>> That is relatively easy to accomplish by immediately getting at least
>> three quotes from reputable remodelers in your area with the idea of
>> bringing the existing cabinet job up to a reasonable standard.
>>
>> Once you have a basis for that cost, you will then have information you
>> need for either doing the work, or suing, or both.
>>
>> If you do decide to sue, that information will be necessary, and to your
>> benefit, in any event.
>>
>> Run, don't walk, to get this done, immediately.
>>
>
> Whatever the outcome, a lawyer may be necessary to draw up the paperwork
> that the bad cabinet maker must sign to consider the transaction
> complete, or he may come back later with a lien on your house claiming
> he wasn't paid in full.

In most states all you need from any contractor is a simple Release of
Lien (if you can get him to sign one) and that does not require a lawyer
to draw up.

And, if he refuses, he may already be past the statutory time frame in
which he could file a lien in any case.

All these can be checked in most states online, with no lawyer necessary.

That said, in order for a material-man's release of lien to be recorded,
not necessary in most states, it most likely will need to be notarized,
which can often be done with just a trip to a bank.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 3/5/2012 8:19 AM, Sam Takoy wrote:

> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?

It's called between a rock and hard place.

IMO, your best bet at this point is to at least try to do what you can
to protect what equity you already have the cabinets as they exist, and
without spending any more money.

That is relatively easy to accomplish by immediately getting at least
three quotes from reputable remodelers in your area with the idea of
bringing the existing cabinet job up to a reasonable standard.

Once you have a basis for that cost, you will then have information you
need for either doing the work, or suing, or both.

If you do decide to sue, that information will be necessary, and to your
benefit, in any event.

Run, don't walk, to get this done, immediately.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Sam Takoy <[email protected]> wrote in news:5d6bd113-0afb-4a42-9739-
[email protected]:

> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.

IOW, something that anyone would clearly recognize as obviously substandard work.

[...]
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?

Sam, you need to seek advice from a lawyer, not a bunch of woodworkers.

Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 09:29:06 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>> Hey Sam - you can obviously get a lot of first hand experience based
>> advice from people here who are in the business, but in the end, you
>> really should be asking your questions of a lawyer. I'll bet that's
>> what you hear from the guys here as well...
>
> I've often wondered about the lawsuit options available to people too.
> But, considering the proliferation of TV shows with people who have
> been irreparably ripped off by contractors, I suspect it's a money pit
> waiting to happen.

When we first built our house (~27 years ago), we had some problems with the
contractor who put up the shell. There were some issues with the term
"workman like manner" as specified in the contract vs. what we got, there
were some issues with materials, and there were issues with the schedule.
We did consult our attorney, initially just to find out if we could go after
the contractor in the first place, and to understand what we could/should
expect from such a pursuit. I don't recall now, but I'm sure we had to pay
the attorney something for his efforts, but he drafted a document that
articulated our concerns, referenced the contract and building standards
(workman like manner), materials issues - all the stuff we were contesting.
The contractor's attorney reviewed what ours had prepared, and recommended
the contractor settle, uncontested. Our settlement with the contractor
included what you could consider a penalty, or costs for us to have to pick
up from the point where we terminated him, and I'm sure we got more than the
attorney fees back on that.

Back then, we didn't know squat about these things so we used our attorney.
Ours was a different situation than the OP is facing, because we had money
held back against draws, so we weren't out the full sum, and trying to get
it back from an unlikely source. I know I could call my attorney if I were
in the situation the OP is in, and he would advise me whether this was a
worthwhile pursuit, and would even tell me what I could/should do on my own
at no, or little cost. If we wanted him to pursue it on our behalf, there
would be the normal fees. I don't know if the OP has a relationship with an
attorney that he can turn to like we can.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:

> If the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are
> defective regardless of who installed them.

Errrrrr - Wrong. Properly made cabinets can indeed deform if hung
inproperly. So where does this "regardless of who installed them" thing
come from?

> Yes, some
> of the defects he has could possibly be blamed on
> installation,

Ok - great contradiction of you first statement.

> but handles at the wrong height,

Not stated by the OP

> incorrect
> hinge mortising,

Not stated by the OP

> etc is going to be hard to pin on
> the installer. And he does not have to prove any of
> that beyond a reasonable doubt, he just needs to prove
> it more likely than not it's the fault of the cabinet maker.

Could well be.


> It would also help if he has pictures of
> the cabinets before they were installed, showing the
> defects. If they were defective, I sure would have
> taken a picture of them immediately and if they
> were bad enough I would have refused delivery.

Yup. But - the OP does not indicate if that was the case. Still lots of
unanswered questions.

>
> One thing that is not mentioned is what is the position
> of the guy who built them? Does he deny there are
> defects? Has he even been asked to make them right?
> Courts expect in most cases for you to try to work
> with the guy to give him a chance to correct them
> before coming to court.

Yup.



> I'd get a clear cap UP FRONT
> on what you're going to pay him or you'll be having
> the next dispute with the lawyer when you get a bill
> for $2K without anything having been resolved.

I imagine things are different in different places, but as I said in a
different post - this is pure bullsiht as a generalization. Certainly, you
can realize significant legal fees, but you can also speak to a lawyer to
understand your position without any cost at all. If anyone gets surprised
by a $2K bill from a lawyer then they deserve that surprise. Lawyers do not
surprise people with bills - it's all up front. Shame on anyone that can't
understand that.



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mar 5, 9:19=A0am, Sam Takoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> this project to an end.
>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Sam

the person who made the cabinets may have no assets, so even if you
win you may lose.

how much did they cost? were the cabinets themselves 25 grand?

On Mar 6, 6:55=A0pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Mar 6, 3:26 pm, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>> If the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are
> >>> defective regardless of who installed them.
>
> >> Errrrrr - Wrong. Properly made cabinets can indeed deform if hung
> >> inproperly. So where does this "regardless of who installed them"
> >> thing come from?
>
> > Look, let's take this in context. =A0Another poster, Clare, claimed
> > that only if the cabinet company who made the cabinets installed
> > them does the OP have recourse. =A0 In response to that I said
> > that if the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are defective
> > regardless of who installed them. =A0Meaning if they were
> > defective before being installed, then the OP had a legitimate
> > claim against the cabinet supplier. =A0Now if they were installed
> > by someone else, I agree that complicates the case.
>
> My bad - I misunderstood the intent of your statement. =A0I trust you'll
> simply be more careful next time. =A0I don't like getting embarassed like
> this...
>
>

No problem, sounds like we are on the same page.



>
> >>> Yes, some
> >>> of the defects he has could possibly be blamed on
> >>> installation,
>
> >> Ok - great contradiction of you first statement.
>
> > No contradiction at all. =A0I never said all the alleged defects
> > were or were not the fault of who made them. =A0Only that
> > just because someone other than the company who made
> > them installed them does not mean the OP has no
> > recourse, which was what Clare stated.
>
> See apology above - but please do work on being more careful next time...
>
>
>
> >>> but handles at the wrong height,
>
> >> Not stated by the OP
>
> > "handles not at the same height"
>
> > nitpicking now are we?
>
> Me? =A0Hell no - I don't do that. =A0Read the archives - I'm the shit sti=
rrer...
>
>
>
> >>> incorrect
> >>> hinge mortising,
>
> >> Not stated by the OP
>
> > He stated:
>
> > "poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> > hinges are not flush with the wood), "
>
> > more nitpicking
>
> Ok - so maybe you're right. =A0Geeze...
>
>
>
> > It's not a could. =A0To prevail in court it's a fact that you don't
> > need to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.
>
> For some things but not for all things. =A0Fortunately - I haven't spent =
a lot
> of time in court over my lifetime, but my limited experiences in this kin=
d
> of thing make me understand that it is more than reasonable doubt for thi=
s
> kind of dispute.

The burden of proof to prevail is NOT beyond reasonable doubt
for a civil case. It's by a preponderance of the evidence, ie
tipping the scales in your favor, which is a much lower standard
than the beyond a reasonable doubt standard of criminal court.



>
> >> Yup. But - the OP does not indicate if that was the case. Still lots
> >> of unanswered questions.
>
> > So, why are you jumping all over me and nitpicking
> > apart minor differences in words?
>
> Sorry - was not jumping all over you. =A0Certainly was not trying to nitp=
ick.
> Remember - I'm the shit stirrer, not the nitpicker. =A0Others do that her=
e.
> Sheese - get it straight, will ya?
>
>
>
> > And that of course is pure BS. =A0There are plenty of people
> > who get surprised by lawyers bills, just as they get surprised
> > by mechanics or tradesmen.
>
> But only because they set themselves up for that. =A0These things are eas=
ily
> discussed with a lawyer and equally easily understood - if one takes the
> time to do so.
>
> > In the case of lawyers, it can
> > be even worse because they frequently bill by the hour.
> > Are you there to watch how long that phone call really took?
> > Or if it was necessary? =A0Or how long he spent reviewing
> > the documents you gave him? =A0 Good grief. =A0There are
> > plenty of lawyers that pad bills, run the clock and there
> > are some that are outright crooks.
>
> No contest on those points. =A0Maybe I'm spoiled because I have a good,
> reliable lawyer (actually a couple), that I can count on and that will be
> upfront with me. =A0There are never any surprises. =A0If things are chang=
ing as
> something unfolds, we talk more. =A0I can't imagine not dealing with a la=
wyer
> in that manner. =A0Maybe other people do it differently.
>
>
>
> > I'll give you one recent small example. =A0A friend had a closing
> > on a house. =A0He called up several lawyers and got quotes.
> > The one he selected quoted $1100 for her services.
> > =A0Half way through the
> > process in the course of a discussion, she said "My paralegal
> > is drawing up that... =A0BTW, you're paying extra for her time."
> > Now that is a good example of how a lawyer
> > can screw you. =A0You'd expect to pay for title work, FedEx,
> > etc. =A0But the paralegal that is doing the work you already
> > paid an attorney for? =A0Totally unethical.
>
> Agreed. =A0But - that's the kind of thing that should have been discussed=
and
> understood upfront.

Yes, but the only likely way it would be discussed would
be if the lawyer brings it up. Not many clients are going to
think to ask if they are going to pay for paralegal work on
a real estate closing seperately from the $1100 flat fee
the lawyer is quoting. I've done many closing using a
lawyer and I would not have thought to ask that. But
I've also never had it happen to me. My friend let her get
away with it without objecting. You probably would have
said, WTF are you talking about? So would I.

Funny conclusion though. Might as well tell you more
of the story. This closing was scheduled
for a particular day and it didn't occur because Chase
also screwed my friend by insisting at the last minute
that he put up 30% down instead of 20%. He had a
sales contract with the standard contingency that said
he was to apply for a mortgage of X amount with 20% down. So
he's scrambling to figure out how to come up with
more money. And I'm telling him, you don't have to.
You fulfilled your part of the contract and if you've
been denied the mortgage that the contract spelled
out, you can go look for another mortgage or you
can call it quits. Remarkably, the lawyer now had
him dealing with the paralegal and she is telling him
a different story, that he has to go through with it,
accept the different mortgage terms or he could
lose his deposit. What pure BS.

Finally, with me feeding him questions and getting
the lawyer on the phone they agreed with my
position. And for this he was paying $1100? Like
who's side is this stupid lawyer on?

So, it took a few more weeks, but he got another
mortgage with a local bank with just the 20% down.
And he closed on the house. Almost a year later
he's asking me what my water bills are and why
he owes the town over $1000 in water bills. So,
we do some digging and find out what happened.
About $700 of the bill was for the 3 week period
between the 1st closing that was scheduled and
the one that actually ocurred. The half-assed
lawyer and her dopey paralegal had called the
town for the water bill for the first closing. They
never called again for the updated numbers for
the actual closing. The folks that owned the house
watered the hell out of the lawn every day and had
a pool. So, they managed to use $700 worth of
water in those few weeks.

It took months, but finally one day a check for $700
showed up from the lawyer. I suspect it came out
of her own pocket because the sellers had moved
out of state and I kind of doubt they sent her the
money. At the very least it created a headache for
her, which made me feel better.



>=A0Lawyers always charge by the minute (or less), and are
> well known for their ability to create fees. =A0One has to gain agreement=
with
> them upfront. =A0I can understand the surprise of someone who gets caught=
by
> this the first time, but my point is only that it is avoidable. =A0I neve=
r
> encounter that kind of surprise. =A0I never pay any extra for the efforts=
of a
> paralegal. =A0Your friend's story is almost appalling, but as harsh as it
> sounds (unintentionally...), I'll be that friend does business differentl=
y
> when he needs a lawyer again. =A0Guess we all go through that kind of lea=
rning
> experience.
>

Yes, I agree. The reason I brought up being careful with the
lawyer fees upfront was the experience the OP already had
in buying cabinets.

[email protected] wrote:


>
> Neither you nor I are there to actually see the problems.
> Many of them sound to me like they are more likely the
> result of poor cabinets, rather than installation:
>

And that is because you are taking what the OP stated in his initial gripe.
You've seen no documentation, no pictures, you've seen no dialog with the OP
that further defines the issues he "claims" - but to you, with that simple
internet based claim...

> "poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and
> crooked
> drawers,"

See above...


>
> Who, for example is more likely to have mortised the
> hinges? The cabinet maker or the installer? And by handles
> not at the same height, I gave him the benefit of the doubt
> that he doesn't mean the cabinets themselves were hung
> at random heights. But in any case, there is clearly enough
> there that it could be the cabinets that are defective.

Really? Clearly enough?



--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 3/5/2012 8:19 AM, Sam Takoy wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> this project to an end.
>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Sam

Have you complained to the contractor? did you pay by credit card?

Sam Takoy wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> this project to an end.
>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?


Some of the things you mention could be subjective; the reveals, e.g.
Others might be nit-picky...how much out of square?...tearout where?...what
sort of finish damage? Regardless - from what you've said - I wouldn't be
kissing off 25K!

If it were me, I would first make a detailed list of the things I find
wrong. I would then contact the maker and politely and calmly express my
dissatisfaction, explaining what I found wrong and asking him what he would
propose.

If what he proposed was unsatisfactory I would photograph them; I would then
photograph similar areas on work I found OK in order to contrast the two.
And I'm talking decent photos, not fuzzy, under/over exposed ones. If out
of square, *SHOW* (in the photo) that it is and how much. If you have to
hire a photographer it can be money well spent but do NOT hire a portrait
photographer; preferably, hire one who has experience in forensics; if that
isn't possible, then a commercial photographer and explain exactly what you
want the photos to show and why you are having them made.

Finally, I would do what Swingman suggested...get written, detailed quotes
from others to fix what is wrong. By "detailed" I mean things like, "Repair
damaged finish on left front door front..."...detailed. As detailed as
possible. You need those in order to show the extent of your damages but
they could also help *prove* the damages along with the photos (and the
cabinets themselves but photos are easier to take to court :). It would
also be useful if you could show that specs in the original contract were
not followed.

Depending upon the cost to make you whole, I would then talk to a lawyer IF
the amount is greater than the max in your small claim court. Have no
doubt, a lawyer will be costing money; if you can use small claims and if
you feel competent to prove damages than personally I would go that route.

Someone mentioned the possibility that even if you sued you might not be
able to collect...the "blood out of a turnip" thing. That's true but
whoever built them probably has a truck and/or car; liens can be placed on
them after obtaining a judgment. Ditto his house (if not a renter),
equipment, etc. Bank accounts can be attached. IOW, you may not get the
judgment paid immediately but eventually it will be.

There is also something known as "examination of a judgment debtor" whereby
he can be called into court, sworn and questioned by you (or lawyer) to
determine exactly what he has and where it is; refusal to answer or lies can
bring jail time.

I hope things work out for you. I know you are disappointed - especially
after being involved with the kitchen for three years - and I feel for you.
I hope he isn't a corporation.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 3/5/12 9:08 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/5/2012 8:19 AM, Sam Takoy wrote:
>
>> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
>> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> It's called between a rock and hard place.
>
> IMO, your best bet at this point is to at least try to do what you can
> to protect what equity you already have the cabinets as they exist, and
> without spending any more money.
>
> That is relatively easy to accomplish by immediately getting at least
> three quotes from reputable remodelers in your area with the idea of
> bringing the existing cabinet job up to a reasonable standard.
>
> Once you have a basis for that cost, you will then have information you
> need for either doing the work, or suing, or both.
>
> If you do decide to sue, that information will be necessary, and to your
> benefit, in any event.
>
> Run, don't walk, to get this done, immediately.
>

Whatever the outcome, a lawyer may be necessary to draw up the paperwork
that the bad cabinet maker must sign to consider the transaction
complete, or he may come back later with a lien on your house claiming
he wasn't paid in full.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/5/2012 9:19 AM, Sam Takoy wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> this project to an end.
>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Sam

Can't believe that cabinets alone were $25 k and it sounds like you must
have put them in yourself since it was a three year period.

I can't comment on your specific case but had the experience of suing my
home builder many years ago.

I sued him personally along with his corporation and it cost me a
retainer with the lawyer and a professional inspectors report.

Lawyer advised me that we were unlikely to win against the builder
himself but would probably win against the corporation but find it had
no assets. So we settled out of court against the corporation but never
got a penny as the corporation was broke. Developers are expert in
hiding behind corporations and will often incorporate a single project
to protect their others. Only money I got back was in the form of
writing it off my taxes as a short term business loss or something.

I did get some satisfaction with the county withholding building permits
until he corrected things that were out of code. I did not need a
lawyer for this.

Besides getting no money there was the aggravation of going through this
for nearly a year and a counter suit because my wife had chased away
buyers of the house next door.

Someone else brought up the potential for a lien. My builder had built
a house for a banker and was getting cash advances and showing him
releases of liens. Turns out he was not paying his subcontractors and
forging the release of liens. Don't know what the banker's lawyer
worked out but he advised the banker that it was better to get the mess
straightened out than to put the builder in jail.

"Sam Takoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:5d6bd113-0afb-4a42-9739-ebe41ac98795@cj6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> this project to an end.
>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Sam

You only made one mistakes,
Always pay in 3rd's
put in a Contract..
that way you only out a same of $833.33 not all..

First Check builder list for Materials.
have him get the Materials to you home first,
have him setup then pay first 3rd,
remember the Materials came out of the first 3rd,
so if the Materials $800, you own him $33.33
if he has the Materials himself Check builder list,
made shore it's all there.. then you own him $833.33
That the first 1/3 to start the job

Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List at 1/2 done,
if he a good builder he be over
1/2 done maybe up to a 1/3 done when he ask for payment #two
That the Sec. 1/3 at 1/2 done..

On Completion Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List,
and it have to be all Clean up then pay the last 3rd..

1/3 on completion..


Look a true builder and Contractor will do this,
If the do not believe ask you Banker or Insurers Co.
For that make us Contractor do it all the time,

That how they know that they are not made One Big mistakes...


Materials $800, you own him $33.33
here a red flag if Materials go pass the first 3rd,
he under bided... And know how to Contractor a job....


--
This post contains IPA phonetic symbols in Unicode.
Without proper rendering support,
you may see question marks, boxes,
or other symbols instead of Unicode characters.

User-agent: *
Disallow: /

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> "Sam Takoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:5d6bd113-0afb-4a42-9739-ebe41ac98795@cj6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
>> > Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
>> > cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
>> > square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
>> > hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
>> > gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
>> > drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>> >
>> > We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
>> > judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
>> > other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
>> > the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
>> > working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
>> > worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
>> > this project to an end.
>> >
>> > However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
>> > any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
>> > that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
>> > base its decision on?
>> >
>> > I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
>> > recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>> >
>> > Many thanks in advance.
>> >
>> > Sam
>>
>> You only made one mistakes,
>> Always pay in 3rd's
>> put in a Contract..
>> that way you only out a same of $833.33 not all..
>>
>> First Check builder list for Materials.
>> have him get the Materials to you home first,
>> have him setup then pay first 3rd,
>> remember the Materials came out of the first 3rd,
>> so if the Materials $800, you own him $33.33
>> if he has the Materials himself Check builder list,
>> made shore it's all there.. then you own him $833.33
>> That the first 1/3 to start the job
>>
>> Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List at 1/2 done,
>> if he a good builder he be over
>> 1/2 done maybe up to a 1/3 done when he ask for payment #two
>> That the Sec. 1/3 at 1/2 done..
>>
>> On Completion Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List,
>> and it have to be all Clean up then pay the last 3rd..
>>
>> 1/3 on completion..
>>
>>
>> Look a true builder and Contractor will do this,
>> If the do not believe ask you Banker or Insurers Co.
>> For that make us Contractor do it all the time,
>>
>> That how they know that they are not made One Big mistakes...
>>
>>
>> Materials $800, you own him $33.33
>> here a red flag if Materials go pass the first 3rd,
>> he under bided... And know how to Contractor a job....
>
> You seem to be envisioning the guy setting up a cabinet shop in your
> driveway and building the cabinets in place.


I can.......


--
This post contains IPA phonetic symbols in Unicode.
Without proper rendering support,
you may see question marks, boxes,
or other symbols instead of Unicode characters.

User-agent: *
Disallow: /

On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 06:32:35 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mar 5, 12:14 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:51:25 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >Sam Takoy wrote:
>> >> Hi,
>>
>> >> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
>> >> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
>> >> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
>> >> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
>> >> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
>> >> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
>> >> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>>
>> >> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
>> >> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
>> >> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
>> >> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
>> >> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
>> >> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
>> >> this project to an end.
>>
>> >> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
>> >> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
>> >> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
>> >> base its decision on?
>>
>> >> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
>> >> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>>
>> >Some of the things you mention could be subjective; the reveals, e.g.
>> >Others might be nit-picky...how much out of square?...tearout where?...what
>> >sort of finish damage?  Regardless - from what you've said - I wouldn't be
>> >kissing off 25K!
>>
>> >If it were me, I would first make a detailed list of the things I find
>> >wrong.  I would then contact the maker and politely and calmly express my
>> >dissatisfaction, explaining what I found wrong and asking him what he would
>> >propose.
>>
>> >If what he proposed was unsatisfactory I would photograph them; I would then
>> >photograph similar areas on work I found OK in order to contrast the two.
>> >And I'm talking decent photos, not fuzzy, under/over exposed ones.  If out
>> >of square, *SHOW* (in the photo) that it is and how much.  If you have to
>> >hire a photographer it can be money well spent but do NOT hire a portrait
>> >photographer; preferably, hire one who has experience in forensics; if that
>> >isn't possible, then a commercial photographer and explain exactly what you
>> >want the photos to show and why you are having them made.
>>
>> > Finally, I would do what Swingman suggested...get written, detailed quotes
>> >from others to fix what is wrong.  By "detailed" I mean things like, "Repair
>> >damaged finish on left front door front..."...detailed.  As detailed as
>> >possible.  You need those in order to show the extent of your damages but
>> >they could also help *prove* the damages along with the photos (and the
>> >cabinets themselves but photos are easier to take to court :).  It would
>> >also be useful if you could show that specs in the original contract were
>> >not followed.
>>
>> >Depending upon the cost to make you whole, I would then talk to a lawyer IF
>> >the amount is greater than the max in your small claim court.  Have no
>> >doubt, a lawyer will be costing money; if you can use small claims and if
>> >you feel competent to prove damages than personally I would go that route.
>>
>> >Someone mentioned the possibility that even if you sued you might not be
>> >able to collect...the "blood out of a turnip" thing.  That's true but
>> >whoever built them probably has a truck and/or car; liens can be placed on
>> >them after obtaining a judgment.  Ditto his house (if not a renter),
>> >equipment, etc.  Bank accounts can be attached.  IOW, you may not get the
>> >judgment paid immediately but eventually it will be.
>>
>> >There is also something known as "examination of a judgment debtor" whereby
>> >he can be called into court, sworn and questioned by you (or lawyer) to
>> >determine exactly what he has and where it is; refusal to answer or lies can
>> >bring jail time.
>>
>> >I hope things work out for you.  I know you are disappointed - especially
>> >after being involved with the kitchen for three years - and I feel for you.
>> >I hope he isn't a corporation.
>>
>> One question that has not been asked and needs to be answered.
>>  Did your cabinet maker also INSTALL the cabinets? Or did you install
>> them as part of your three year kitchen renovation.
>>
>>  If you installed them or a general laborer installed them rather than
>> the cabinetmaker I'm afraid you will not have a leg to stand on.  If
>> the cabinetmaker supplied the installation crew you have recourse.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>If the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are
>defective regardless of who installed them. Yes, some
>of the defects he has could possibly be blamed on
>installation, but handles at the wrong height, incorrect
>hinge mortising, etc is going to be hard to pin on
>the installer. And he does not have to prove any of
>that beyond a reasonable doubt, he just needs to prove
>it more likely than not it's the fault of the cabinet maker.
>It would also help if he has pictures of
>the cabinets before they were installed, showing the
>defects. If they were defective, I sure would have
>taken a picture of them immediately and if they
>were bad enough I would have refused delivery.
>
>One thing that is not mentioned is what is the position
>of the guy who built them? Does he deny there are
>defects? Has he even been asked to make them right?
>Courts expect in most cases for you to try to work
>with the guy to give him a chance to correct them
>before coming to court.
>
>First thing I would do is what someone else suggested.
>Get in an expert cabinet guy
>and get an estimate of what it takes to make it right,
>ie can they be fixed for $2,000 or are they so bad
>that you'd have to start all over.
>
>The good news for you is that PA has a high small
>claims court limit of $12,000. In many states it's very
>low, like $3,000. IMO, small claims is going to be
>your only viable option. You could recover up to
>$12,000 without legal fees, no lawyer is necessary.
>If the cabinets can be made right without doing it all
>over, that should cover it.
>
>If you went to regular court and won the entire $25K,
>after legal fees you likely wouldn't net much more
>anyway. And if you lose, you'd be out the legal fees.
>I also doubt paying a lawyer to look into it and send
>threatening letters is going to do much good. If you
>do go with a lawyer, I'd get a clear cap UP FRONT
>on what you're going to pay him or you'll be having
>the next dispute with the lawyer when you get a bill
>for $2K without anything having been resolved.
>
>As others have pointed out, winning and collecting
>are two different things. Shysters like this often are
>experts at hiding assets, like putting houses, cars,
>and bank accounts in others names. Or he could wind
>up declaring bankruptcy before you get to court, etc.
>The other important thing here is what form of business
>it is, ie sole proprietorship, corporation, etc. That will
>determine the entity you can sue and possibly collect
>from.
>
>With small claims, it will not cost you much to try
>to get made whole. Make sure you document
>everything with excellent photos, phone call records,
>etc. Show records of how many times you've
>called him. With regard to phone calls, if PA allows taping
>with one party consent, then I'd tape any calls you
>have with him, if that's still possible. Save any
>phone messages he leaves you. A guy acting
>like an unreasonable AH for the judge to hear can
>only help your case. If he says the problem with
>the cabinets is X and later in court says it's Y,
>you have him destroying his credibility.
>And make sure you at least
>have a notorized letter from an expert cabinet guy
>detailing what is wrong with the cabinets and how
>much it will cost to correct. Ideally you'd want him
>with you in small claims as a witness.
>
>The thing you better have a good explanation for
>is why he was paid in full. And if the cabinets were
>not all delivered at once, why you went ahead with
>more work when the first ones were defective, etc.
>
>If you want to put some time into it, you might be
>able to recover something. Whether you have the
>time and inclination to do so is another issue. Me,
>I'd do it just to not let the skunk get away with it.
>And often skunks like this just don't show up in
>court, so you might win by default. But then
>collecting is another matter.
OP did not say the hardware was at different levels on the doors -
simply that they did not line up. Also said the reveals were all odf,
etc etc. A perfectly square set of cabinets installed off square will
have all of those symptoms - along with veneer tearouts at joints etc
if they are built of MDF or chip-board covered with veneer.

IF the OP installed them himself, or had a "blacksmith" put them in
(nothing against blacksmiths when they are working with iron and a
forge, but keep them away from my cabinetry unless they are also
cabinet-makers) a perfectly good set of cabinets can be converted to a
dumpsterload od course sawdust in a matter of an hour or two.

On 3/6/2012 9:47 AM, [email protected] wrote:

> Neither you nor I are there to actually see the problems.
> Many of them sound to me like they are more likely the
> result of poor cabinets, rather than installation:

Keep in mind this was crossposted to the wRec, where there is no
shortage of the ill informed giving sight unseen, purely conjectural
advice on issues with which they have no experience whatsoever.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 3/6/2012 11:48 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Swingman" wrote
>>
>> Keep in mind this was crossposted to the wRec, where there is no
>> shortage of the ill informed giving sight unseen, purely conjectural
>> advice on issues with which they have no experience whatsoever.
>>
> Are you talking about cabinets or the GOP primaries? ;-)


You left out religion ... ;)


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:51:25 -0500, "dadiOH" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Sam Takoy wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
>> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
>> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
>> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
>> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
>> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
>> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>>
>> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
>> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
>> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
>> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
>> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
>> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
>> this project to an end.
>>
>> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
>> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
>> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
>> base its decision on?
>>
>> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
>> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
>
>Some of the things you mention could be subjective; the reveals, e.g.
>Others might be nit-picky...how much out of square?...tearout where?...what
>sort of finish damage? Regardless - from what you've said - I wouldn't be
>kissing off 25K!
>
>If it were me, I would first make a detailed list of the things I find
>wrong. I would then contact the maker and politely and calmly express my
>dissatisfaction, explaining what I found wrong and asking him what he would
>propose.
>
>If what he proposed was unsatisfactory I would photograph them; I would then
>photograph similar areas on work I found OK in order to contrast the two.
>And I'm talking decent photos, not fuzzy, under/over exposed ones. If out
>of square, *SHOW* (in the photo) that it is and how much. If you have to
>hire a photographer it can be money well spent but do NOT hire a portrait
>photographer; preferably, hire one who has experience in forensics; if that
>isn't possible, then a commercial photographer and explain exactly what you
>want the photos to show and why you are having them made.
>
> Finally, I would do what Swingman suggested...get written, detailed quotes
>from others to fix what is wrong. By "detailed" I mean things like, "Repair
>damaged finish on left front door front..."...detailed. As detailed as
>possible. You need those in order to show the extent of your damages but
>they could also help *prove* the damages along with the photos (and the
>cabinets themselves but photos are easier to take to court :). It would
>also be useful if you could show that specs in the original contract were
>not followed.
>
>Depending upon the cost to make you whole, I would then talk to a lawyer IF
>the amount is greater than the max in your small claim court. Have no
>doubt, a lawyer will be costing money; if you can use small claims and if
>you feel competent to prove damages than personally I would go that route.
>
>Someone mentioned the possibility that even if you sued you might not be
>able to collect...the "blood out of a turnip" thing. That's true but
>whoever built them probably has a truck and/or car; liens can be placed on
>them after obtaining a judgment. Ditto his house (if not a renter),
>equipment, etc. Bank accounts can be attached. IOW, you may not get the
>judgment paid immediately but eventually it will be.
>
>There is also something known as "examination of a judgment debtor" whereby
>he can be called into court, sworn and questioned by you (or lawyer) to
>determine exactly what he has and where it is; refusal to answer or lies can
>bring jail time.
>
>I hope things work out for you. I know you are disappointed - especially
>after being involved with the kitchen for three years - and I feel for you.
>I hope he isn't a corporation.


One question that has not been asked and needs to be answered.
Did your cabinet maker also INSTALL the cabinets? Or did you install
them as part of your three year kitchen renovation.

If you installed them or a general laborer installed them rather than
the cabinetmaker I'm afraid you will not have a leg to stand on. If
the cabinetmaker supplied the installation crew you have recourse.

On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 09:29:06 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
>Hey Sam - you can obviously get a lot of first hand experience based advice
>from people here who are in the business, but in the end, you really should
>be asking your questions of a lawyer. I'll bet that's what you hear from
>the guys here as well...

I've often wondered about the lawsuit options available to people too.
But, considering the proliferation of TV shows with people who have
been irreparably ripped off by contractors, I suspect it's a money pit
waiting to happen.

Sam Takoy wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Our kitchen cabinets were built by a local cabinet maker. We live in a
> Philadelphia suburb, the cabinet make lives in Bucks County. The
> cabinets are of unacceptably poor quality. Examples include out-of-
> square boxes, sloppy reveals, poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and
> hinges are not flush with the wood), handles not at the same height,
> gaps in joints, warped doors, damage in the finish, wobbly and crooked
> drawers, tear outs in the veneer and many more.
>
> We have obviously made a number of mistakes, the biggest being in
> judgment of character and background checks. These mistakes led to
> other mistakes, like paying the full amount when we were informed that
> the cabinet maker ran out of money and wouldn't be able to continue
> working on our project unless we paid. We were in a tough spot having
> worked on the kitchen for three years and feeling the need to bring
> this project to an end.
>
> However, all of that is in the past. At this point, what recourse, if
> any, do we have? Can one bring a law suit based on "low quality" -
> that is, is the an objective measure of quality that the court could
> base its decision on?
>
> I would welcome any ideas on how to proceed. Or should we just
> recognize that we made a $25k mistake and move on?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>

1. Lawyer.

2. Recognize that you may be a victim of the human compulsion to find or
magnify flaws. Think of a woman just back from the hairdresser.

No one can tell from your description whether your cabinets are
indistinguishable from something made of discarded moving pallets or a
splendorific job whose imperfections are found only by a magnifying glass.

Perhaps pictures?