wood screws

Jack Stein wrote:

>
> Honest, I don't recall ever breaking a shank on a drywall screw. I
> have (rarely) broken shanks on regular screws, never (that I
> remember) on a drywall screw. No reason to lie, just my personal
> experience. I abuse the hell out of them too, because I know the
> head won't strip. I'm more careful with plain screws where I know I
> can strip out the head w/o much effort.

I've broken many Jack. Some because I tried to go too far, and more because
I bought cheap screws.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 6/29/2011 12:02 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a decent
> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing
> the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent screws?
>
> thanks!
>
>


I would like to thank everyone for their replies. I realize it's gonna
be hard to find an American made product. I'm mainly interested in
getting something that won't strip out if i have the pilot hole a bit
small or not deep enough. I'm just getting started in this wood working
thing at 53 years old I've got a fairly decent table saw, a million year
old (but tight) radial arm saw and a nice new dewalt planer. I'm
currently working on fixing up a jointer. I have 500+ board feet of red
oak, purchased at a cost of 72 cents (yes, seventy-two cents) per bd ft.
I'm looking forward to making some things for around the house.
Nothing fancy, no ornate furniture and the like. I love red oak and
real lacquer.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Stainless cap screws, allen drive. Pix:
http://patwarner.com/images/tsweb4767.jpg
******************************************


On Jun 28, 10:02=A0pm, Steve Barker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. =A0i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. =A0I just want a decen=
t
> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing
> the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. =A0Do each of them sell decent scre=
ws?
>
> thanks!
>
> --
> Steve Barker
> remove the "not" from my address to email

On 6/29/2011 6:52 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Steve Barker wrote:
>> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
>> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a
>> decent american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without
>> tearing the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally
>> purchased ones)
>> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent
>> screws?
>
> McFeeley's does, probably Rockler too.
>
> Since you are using oak, keep in mind that you need to use stainless or
> bronze. Brass is OK but easier to break.
>
>

Why would you, "I" need to switch to stainless or bronze for oak?
Regular steel has been working out fine for me for the last 30+ years.

I do not have a problem with streaking or staining but then again I do
not use a "bar of soap" as a thread lubricant.

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:
>2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."

Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as drywall
screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
drywall.

"Steve Barker" wrote:

> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i
> mostly work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just
> want a decent american made screw i can take in and out (if need be)
> without tearing the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the
> locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent
> screws?

-------------------------------------
First things first, the fastener industry moved off shore a long time
ago, at least by 1985-1990.

If you are on the east coast, Jamestown Distributors is a good choice.

They are primarily marine oriented so they have a good selection of
316 S/S fasteners.

I standardized on S/S a long time ago.

If you buy in 100 pc boxes, the premium $ are not a big deal.

I long ago standardized on coarse thread, self tapping sheet metal
screws
with the appropriate head.

Again, for the most part, use either #8 or #10.

#8 x 1-1/4" are common for attaching 3/4" thick stock.

Have fun.

Lew

"Steve Barker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a decent
> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing the
> shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent screws?
>
> thanks!
>
>
> --
> Steve Barker
> remove the "not" from my address to email



These work well for me. (in different sizes as needed)

Max
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0810-FMY/Flat-Head-Steel-Yellow-Zinc-Screws

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
>:~) I guess you could say that about the zinc plated Velveta cheese
> screws also. Their sole purpose is to entice you to purchase them,
> mission accomplished.

The Velveta cheese is a lubricating agent, in case you can't find soap or
wax. ;-)

Puckdropper

Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*
>
> I didn't try this with a regular drill, might do that next. Impact
> drivers I think are easier on the screws, the wood and the guy doing
> the driving. They are awesome. They don't un-screw my deck screws
> though, snap the heads off those suckers instantly.
>

I'd be interested to see the results of using a drill/driver. I would
venture a guess (hm... sounds like a hypothesis) that the regular drill
will damage the screws much more than the impact driver.

Puckdropper

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>

>>
>> 1st. Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source in the world. It's
>> barely a step up from all of us in this newsgroup spouting off our
>> opinions, old wives tales, and stuff we heard a guy tell us that his
>> brother-in-laws' buddy's dad told him. (However, for the sake of
>> this discussion, I will stipulate that this page is 100% accurate.)
>

> True, but if you don't like any information you get here, or the web,
> exactly why is it that you waste your time here? If it's 100%
> accurate, exactly what is your beef?

Well - if you agree with Mike by your statement that what he says is true,
then why do you follow on with yrour question for his presence here? If
what he says is true - then it is true. Why ask him why he's here?

>
> Well, camming out of a Phillips driver has been pretty effective at
> stripping the heads for me. Works when dumb techs try Phillips
> drivers with Pozidriv screws, too. ;-)

Well - from my experience, Phillips heads have performed pretty well. Yup -
I've rounded out some heads, but that was usually from really cheap screws.
I sure cannot state that the Phillips head design is an inferior design, and
I've been driving screws for a lot of years.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Steve Barker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a decent
> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing the
> shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent screws?
>
> thanks!
>
>
> --
> Steve Barker
> remove the "not" from my address to email

I use mostly oak. Use the gold colored and some times the galvinized (dry
wall screws) .. I predrill holes and use bees wax for lube. No problins. WW

"Dave" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 23:24:07 -0500, "[email protected]"
>How many care if a drywall screw has a buggered head?

Many people if it's not inserted properly. A properly constructed
drywall screw cams out very easily when inserted by a professional
installer. Speed of installation and proper screw depth are an
important thing to people who earn their living by installing drywall.

-------------------------
Drywall screws do not use a Philips head but rather a Frearson that looks
the same to the untrained eye.

mike

On 6/29/2011 12:02 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a decent
> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing
> the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent screws?

Quit using Rockler's screws for critical applications, like joining Face
Frames ... simply snapped too damn many in the process.

For general purpose, where if one snaps it's not a big deal, they're OK.

I tend to buy bulk whenever I buy them and, for critical applications,
try to get them from a local cabinet supply shop, or tool supplier, as
they seem to have the better quality screws in bulk than most national
chains, like Rockler, WoodCraft, etc.

FWIW & IME, good places in Houston to buy screws are Circle Saw,
CornerStone Hardware and Louis & Co.

That said, in this day and age, that could change tomorrow.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 7/6/2011 9:39 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> On 7/6/2011 12:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> I've broken plenty. Cheap screws, or drywall screws for woodwork, or
>> deck screws.
>> If you try to drive them, take them out and drive them in again, that's
>> a sure fire way to break them from the heat from all that friction.
>
> When I built my deck 20 years ago I used SS screws, figuring if I ever
> needed to replace any of the decking, I could simply un-screw them.
> Fortunately, I never needed to replace any decking but I tried to remove
> two screws recently because they were not fully seated, and damn, not a
> chance. Both heads snapped right off and it was a bear getting out the
> shanks. If I ever have to remove this deck, I think I'll just set it on
> fire:-) If I ever build another deck (very unlikely) I'd get a nail gun
> and nail the sucker. Cheaper and easier and definitely easier to
> de-struct than non-cooperative screws.
>
> I think the wolmanized decking shrinks around the screw, and over the
> years, the screw becomes one with the deck...
>

Try using an impact driver to remove "stick" screws, they tend to be
easier on the screws and let the screws relax a bit

On 7/6/2011 3:46 PM, Jack Stein wrote:
> On 7/5/2011 12:42 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/5/2011 10:12 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>>> On 7/5/2011 10:28 AM, Morgans wrote:
>
>>>> Torque down a drywall screw on a couple pieces of hardwood, and you
>>>> will
>>>> hear the snap of the shank breaking before the head gets driven flush,
>>>> every time. ;-)
>>>
>>> Torque any screw into hard wood, trying to drive the head flush, and you
>>> are looking for trouble. Hard wood needs a pilot hole and a countersink.
>>> Even in soft wood, a countersink is best or you can crush the wood
>>> before you get the head flush.
>
>> Actually I can use a regular #8 flat head square drive screw with out a
>> pilot hole in 3/4" red oak. Using an impact driver, when the head begins
>> to bury inside the wood the wood will split. That was just to test the
>> strength of the impact driver.
>>
>> And that is why I switched to square drive screws 20+ years ago.
>
> OK guys, I just exited my shop after testing this out.
>
> Using a 2" coarse thread #8 head dry wall screw, a Mcfeely's Robertson
> 2" #8 and a Home Depot 2" #8 outdoor screw and a scrap piece of 1 1/2
> white oak (harder than red oak). I drove all of them right down past the
> countersink level with my impact driver. I did this 5 times with the
> drywall screw to see if a hot screw would snap as Mike suggested, and it
> was hot as hell, but didn't snap.
>

>
I gotta say, I have never never never ever heard of or seen a dry wall
screw in a #8 or larger. Where do you get them?

On 6/29/2011 6:52 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Steve Barker wrote:
>> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
>> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a
>> decent american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without
>> tearing the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally
>> purchased ones)
>> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent
>> screws?
>
> McFeeley's does, probably Rockler too.
>
> Since you are using oak, keep in mind that you need to use stainless or
> bronze. Brass is OK but easier to break.
>
>

can you elaborate on the reason to use brass or ss? So far i've been
using some regular steel screws.

thanks,

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> On 7/4/11 8:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> 2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
> >> effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
> >> to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
> >
> > Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
> > camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as drywall
> > screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
> > sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
> > drywall.
>
> I'm not the one who brought it up.

Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who has
worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the result is a
buggered up head that won't take much torque.

On 7/5/2011 10:12 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> On 7/5/2011 10:28 AM, Morgans wrote:
>> "Leon" wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the
>> screw shank breaks.
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>> I think it is a difference of what material you are working with.
>>
>> If all you are fastening is softwood, you may get away using drywall
>> screws.
>>
>> Torque down a drywall screw on a couple pieces of hardwood, and you will
>> hear the snap of the shank breaking before the head gets driven flush,
>> every time. ;-)
>
> Torque any screw into hard wood, trying to drive the head flush, and you
> are looking for trouble. Hard wood needs a pilot hole and a countersink.
> Even in soft wood, a countersink is best or you can crush the wood
> before you get the head flush.
>

Actually I can use a regular #8 flat head square drive screw with out a
pilot hole in 3/4" red oak. Using an impact driver, when the head
begins to bury inside the wood the wood will split. That was just to
test the strength of the impact driver.

And that is why I switched to square drive screws 20+ years ago.

On 7/5/2011 10:01 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> :~) I guess you could say that about the zinc plated Velveta cheese
>> screws also. Their sole purpose is to entice you to purchase them,
>> mission accomplished.
>
> The Velveta cheese is a lubricating agent, in case you can't find soap or
> wax. ;-)
>
> Puckdropper

That's right!

Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> :~) I guess you could say that about the zinc plated Velveta cheese
>> screws also. Their sole purpose is to entice you to purchase them,
>> mission accomplished.
>
> The Velveta cheese is a lubricating agent, in case you can't find
> soap or wax. ;-)
>

Makes sense. Velveta is 98% vegetable oil.

On 7/5/2011 8:46 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> On 7/4/2011 10:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article<[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>>
>>> On 7/4/11 8:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>>>>> effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>>>>> to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
>>>>
>>>> Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
>>>> camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as drywall
>>>> screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
>>>> sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
>>>> drywall.
>>>
>>> I'm not the one who brought it up.
>>
>> Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who has
>> worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the result is a
>> buggered up head that won't take much torque.
>
> Case hardened drywall screws don't end up with a buggered up heads.

Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the
screw shank breaks.

On 6/30/2011 10:08 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> On 6/29/2011 8:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>> I may have missed it, but I've seen nothing in this thread that would
>>> lead me to believe anyone was leaving any screw heads exposed. I've
>>> built lots of pieces with screws used on the back or bottom, and
>>> occasionally on the top of very tall items, that were not visible.
>>>
>>
>> It was brought up that they would streak from corrosion.
>
> I've yet to see any screw streak from corrosion as long as the wood, any
> type, remained dry. Indoor wood work generally remains dry, other than
> in a steam room or bath.
>
>> I'd doubt anyone would care about streaking on the bottom or back of a
>> piece, even though it would still be lazy not to cover those up, imo.
>> This leads one to believe if you care about streaking, they can be seen.
>
> If the piece is subject to moisture to the extent it would streak, as in
> out doors, then, stainless is the best answer. Otherwise it just doesn't
> matter, long as the screws don't break or heads strip out easily.
>

If the "red oak" piece is subject to moisture out doors, streaking is
going to be the least of his worries. Red Oak will last about 4~5 years
out doors and exposed to the elements.

On 7/5/2011 2:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>
>> Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who
>> has worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the
>> result is a buggered up head that won't take much torque.
>
> I have to say that the only time that phillips head screws have failed me is
> when I've put them to more task than they were inteded for.
>

:~) I guess you could say that about the zinc plated Velveta cheese
screws also. Their sole purpose is to entice you to purchase them,
mission accomplished.

On 6/29/2011 12:18 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Jamestown Distributors

nver mind. i found them

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 6/29/2011 12:18 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Steve Barker" wrote:
>
>> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i
>> mostly work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just
>> want a decent american made screw i can take in and out (if need be)
>> without tearing the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the
>> locally purchased ones)
>>
>> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent
>> screws?
>
> -------------------------------------
> First things first, the fastener industry moved off shore a long time
> ago, at least by 1985-1990.
>
> If you are on the east coast, Jamestown Distributors is a good choice.
>
> They are primarily marine oriented so they have a good selection of
> 316 S/S fasteners.
>
> I standardized on S/S a long time ago.
>
> If you buy in 100 pc boxes, the premium $ are not a big deal.
>
> I long ago standardized on coarse thread, self tapping sheet metal
> screws
> with the appropriate head.
>
> Again, for the most part, use either #8 or #10.
>
> #8 x 1-1/4" are common for attaching 3/4" thick stock.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>

Thanks Lew, I'm in the middle. (KC) Does this Jamestown dist. have a
web site?

thank again

s


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the
screw shank breaks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it is a difference of what material you are working with.

If all you are fastening is softwood, you may get away using drywall screws.

Torque down a drywall screw on a couple pieces of hardwood, and you will
hear the snap of the shank breaking before the head gets driven flush, every
time. ;-)

-- Jim in NC

Steve Barker <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a
> decent american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without
> tearing the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally
> purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent
> screws?
>
> thanks!

I forget why I started to use their screws, but I do like them:
http://screw-products.com/
I have no idea where the screws are fabricated, but the website looks like
this is a US outfit.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 7/5/2011 9:25 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> On 7/5/2011 9:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/5/2011 8:46 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>>> On 7/4/2011 10:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> In article<[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/4/11 8:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a
>>>>>>> side
>>>>>>> effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being
>>>>>>> designed
>>>>>>> to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
>>>>>> camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as
>>>>>> drywall
>>>>>> screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
>>>>>> sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
>>>>>> drywall.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not the one who brought it up.
>>>>
>>>> Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who
>>>> has
>>>> worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the result
>>>> is a
>>>> buggered up head that won't take much torque.
>>>
>>> Case hardened drywall screws don't end up with a buggered up heads.
>>
>> Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the
>> screw shank breaks.
>
> Honest, I don't recall ever breaking a shank on a drywall screw. I have
> (rarely) broken shanks on regular screws, never (that I remember) on a
> drywall screw. No reason to lie, just my personal experience. I abuse
> the hell out of them too, because I know the head won't strip. I'm more
> careful with plain screws where I know I can strip out the head w/o much
> effort.
>
Don't doubt your experience at all. I have broken plenty.

On 6/29/2011 12:02 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a decent
> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing
> the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent screws?
>
> thanks!
>
>

Good luck finding an exclusive American made screw. For the better
style screws driver design seems to make the most difference. Look for
at least the square head design and forget about slotted and Phillips.

Mcfeeleys is a good source be does not sell exclusive American. I have
been buying from the for so long that I forget how long, 20+++. They
stand behind their product.

BTY working with hard woods you want to use a fine thread design.

J. Clarke wrote:

>
> Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who
> has worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the
> result is a buggered up head that won't take much torque.

I have to say that the only time that phillips head screws have failed me is
when I've put them to more task than they were inteded for.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Jun 28, 10:02=A0pm, Steve Barker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. =A0i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. =A0I just want a decen=
t
> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing
> the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. =A0Do each of them sell decent scre=
ws?
>
> thanks!
>
> --
> Steve Barker
> remove the "not" from my address to email

Stainless cap screws, allen drive. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://patwarner.com/images/tsweb4767.jpg <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<pix
***************************************************************************=
**************



On Jun 28, 10:02=A0pm, Steve Barker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. =A0i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. =A0I just want a decen=
t
> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing
> the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. =A0Do each of them sell decent scre=
ws?
>
> thanks!
>
> --
> Steve Barker
> remove the "not" from my address to email

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:45:14 -0400, <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>>2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>>effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>>to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
>
>Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
>camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as drywall
>screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
>sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
>drywall.

How many care if a drywall screw has a buggered head.

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 7/4/11 3:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:52:37 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/4/11 2:21 PM, Eric wrote:
>>>> Philips screw heads were designed to eliminate overtorquing them by
>>>> ensuring the tip of the screwdriver ramps out of the slot and
>>>> effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side effect.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bullshit. :-)
>>> I don't believe that for a second.
>>
>> Don't know if you're pulling legs, but...
>>
>
>Yes and no... thus the smiley face.
>
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives
>>
>> Phillips Head:
>> "Created by Henry F. Phillips, the Phillips screw drive was purposely
>> designed to cam out when the screw stalled, to prevent the fastener
>> damaging the work or the head, instead damaging the driver. This was
>> caused by the relative difficulty in building torque limiting into the
>> early drivers."
>>
>> If you want to be able to break the head, use a Posidriv (also invented by
>> Phillips). ;-)
>>
>> (later)
>> "Phillips drivers have an intentional angle on the flanks and rounded
>> corners so they will cam out of the slot before a power tool will twist
>> off the screw head. The Pozidriv screws and drivers have straight
>> sided flanks."
>
>1st. Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source in the world. It's
>barely a step up from all of us in this newsgroup spouting off our
>opinions, old wives tales, and stuff we heard a guy tell us that his
>brother-in-laws' buddy's dad told him. (However, for the sake of this
>discussion, I will stipulate that this page is 100% accurate.)

True, but if you don't like any information you get here, or the web, exactly
why is it that you waste your time here? If it's 100% accurate, exactly what
is your beef?

>2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."

Well, camming out of a Phillips driver has been pretty effective at stripping
the heads for me. Works when dumb techs try Phillips drivers with Pozidriv
screws, too. ;-)

Probably not original Phillips head design anyway.

http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips-Plus-So-Much-Mor/step51/ACRreg-Phillipsreg/

--------------

"Jack Stein" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

The same number of people that use them. That's probably why they
make'm so the heads don't "bugger"

---------------
On 7/5/2011 12:24 AM, [email protected] wrote:
How many care if a drywall screw has a buggered head.

Steve Barker wrote:
> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a
> decent american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without
> tearing the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally
> purchased ones)
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent
> screws?

McFeeley's does, probably Rockler too.

Since you are using oak, keep in mind that you need to use stainless or
bronze. Brass is OK but easier to break.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 6/29/11 11:20 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>> Since you are using oak, keep in mind that you need to use stainless or
>> bronze. Brass is OK but easier to break.
>>
>
> can you elaborate on the reason to use brass or ss? So far i've been
> using some regular steel screws.
>
> thanks,
>

You don't. It's the return of the dreaded "oak rust" myth.

Pre-drilling oak or any other "hard" hardwood is a good idea.
When considering other typed of screw heads, keep in mind that the
driver is probably more important than the screw head. A poor square
drive head on a driver bit will round over and lose its grip, nullifying
as advantage of the head design. There are Phillips type head/bit combos
that are as strip free as square head or star head, because the head and
tip match perfectly.

When choosing a square head driver, look for the tip to be hardened
steel and not just a die-punched portion of the steel shaft. The ones
that appear to be a separate piece and different kind of metal attached
to the driver shaft have always held their shape and performed much
better for me.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Steve Barker wrote:
> On 6/29/2011 6:52 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Steve Barker wrote:
>>> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i
>>> mostly work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just
>>> want a decent american made screw i can take in and out (if need
>>> be) without tearing the shit out of the head of the screw. (like
>>> the locally purchased ones)
>>> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent
>>> screws?
>>
>> McFeeley's does, probably Rockler too.
>>
>> Since you are using oak, keep in mind that you need to use stainless
>> or bronze. Brass is OK but easier to break.
>>
>>
>
> can you elaborate on the reason to use brass or ss? So far i've been
> using some regular steel screws.

Oak is acidic. In time, it will streak from corrosion of steel fastenings,
particularly in a damp or humid environment. The same is true of various
other woods, western red cedar beng a common one.

Mr. Myth Man Mike not experiencing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

BTW, if you ever need to use brass it is a good idea to use a same size
steel screw first to cut the threads, remove it and insert the brass one.
Brass is very weak.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 6/29/11 1:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Steve Barker wrote:
>> On 6/29/2011 6:52 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>> Steve Barker wrote:
>>>> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i
>>>> mostly work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just
>>>> want a decent american made screw i can take in and out (if need
>>>> be) without tearing the shit out of the head of the screw. (like
>>>> the locally purchased ones)
>>>> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent
>>>> screws?
>>>
>>> McFeeley's does, probably Rockler too.
>>>
>>> Since you are using oak, keep in mind that you need to use stainless
>>> or bronze. Brass is OK but easier to break.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> can you elaborate on the reason to use brass or ss? So far i've been
>> using some regular steel screws.
>
> Oak is acidic. In time, it will streak from corrosion of steel fastenings,
> particularly in a damp or humid environment. The same is true of various
> other woods, western red cedar beng a common one.
>
> Mr. Myth Man Mike not experiencing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
>
> BTW, if you ever need to use brass it is a good idea to use a same size
> steel screw first to cut the threads, remove it and insert the brass one.
> Brass is very weak.
>

Ok, then here's my question. We're talking about screw heads, right?
What kind of woodworker is leaving screw-heads exposed on his woodwork?
This guy asked about screws he could take in and out, so I assumed it's
not for furniture or cabinets.

Yes, I've seen stains in wood from fasteners and my first thought
wasn't, "Gee, he should have used SS pins or brads." No, my first
thought is, "What kind of hack woodworker leaves exposed fasteners and
doesn't fill his nail holes?"


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

-MIKE- wrote:
> On 6/29/11 1:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Steve Barker wrote:
>>> On 6/29/2011 6:52 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> Steve Barker wrote:
>>>>> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i
>>>>> mostly work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just
>>>>> want a decent american made screw i can take in and out (if need
>>>>> be) without tearing the shit out of the head of the screw. (like
>>>>> the locally purchased ones)
>>>>> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent
>>>>> screws?
>>>>
>>>> McFeeley's does, probably Rockler too.
>>>>
>>>> Since you are using oak, keep in mind that you need to use
>>>> stainless or bronze. Brass is OK but easier to break.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> can you elaborate on the reason to use brass or ss? So far i've
>>> been using some regular steel screws.
>>
>> Oak is acidic. In time, it will streak from corrosion of steel
>> fastenings, particularly in a damp or humid environment. The same
>> is true of various other woods, western red cedar beng a common one.
>>
>> Mr. Myth Man Mike not experiencing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
>>
>> BTW, if you ever need to use brass it is a good idea to use a same
>> size steel screw first to cut the threads, remove it and insert the
>> brass one. Brass is very weak.
>>
>
> Ok, then here's my question. We're talking about screw heads, right?
> What kind of woodworker is leaving screw-heads exposed on his
> woodwork? This guy asked about screws he could take in and out, so I
> assumed it's not for furniture or cabinets.
>
> Yes, I've seen stains in wood from fasteners and my first thought
> wasn't, "Gee, he should have used SS pins or brads." No, my first
> thought is, "What kind of hack woodworker leaves exposed fasteners and
> doesn't fill his nail holes?"

It makes no difference if they are exposed or not.
http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/corrosion_of_metals_by_wood.pdf

One could also ask, what kind of hack woodworker uses nails? Or does not
counterbore for screws and use plugs?

In both cases there are times when a nail or screw can be exposed and look
good.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 6/29/11 1:54 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>
> One could also ask, what kind of hack woodworker uses nails? Or does not
> counterbore for screws and use plugs?
>

I agree.


> In both cases there are times when a nail or screw can be exposed and look
> good.
>

We all have opinions. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

In article <[email protected]>, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 6/29/11 1:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>
>Ok, then here's my question. We're talking about screw heads, right?
>What kind of woodworker is leaving screw-heads exposed on his woodwork?
>This guy asked about screws he could take in and out, so I assumed it's
>not for furniture or cabinets.
>
>Yes, I've seen stains in wood from fasteners and my first thought
>wasn't, "Gee, he should have used SS pins or brads." No, my first
>thought is, "What kind of hack woodworker leaves exposed fasteners and
>doesn't fill his nail holes?"
>


I may have missed it, but I've seen nothing in this thread that would
lead me to believe anyone was leaving any screw heads exposed. I've
built lots of pieces with screws used on the back or bottom, and
occasionally on the top of very tall items, that were not visible.



--
There are no stupid questions, but there are lots of stupid answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On 6/29/11 6:40 PM, Larry W wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 6/29/11 1:32 PM, dadiOH wrote:
>>
>> Ok, then here's my question. We're talking about screw heads, right?
>> What kind of woodworker is leaving screw-heads exposed on his woodwork?
>> This guy asked about screws he could take in and out, so I assumed it's
>> not for furniture or cabinets.
>>
>> Yes, I've seen stains in wood from fasteners and my first thought
>> wasn't, "Gee, he should have used SS pins or brads." No, my first
>> thought is, "What kind of hack woodworker leaves exposed fasteners and
>> doesn't fill his nail holes?"
>>
>
>
> I may have missed it, but I've seen nothing in this thread that would
> lead me to believe anyone was leaving any screw heads exposed. I've
> built lots of pieces with screws used on the back or bottom, and
> occasionally on the top of very tall items, that were not visible.
>

It was brought up that they would streak from corrosion.
I'd doubt anyone would care about streaking on the bottom or back of a
piece, even though it would still be lazy not to cover those up, imo.
This leads one to believe if you care about streaking, they can be seen.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Steve Barker wrote:

> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a decent
> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing
> the shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>
> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent screws?
>
> thanks!
>
>
Don't think screws are made in the US anymore!
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"

Man. 2010.1 Spring
KDE4.4
2.6.33.5-desktop-2mnb

On 6/29/2011 8:48 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 6/29/2011 7:43 AM, WW wrote:

>> I use mostly oak. Use the gold colored and some times the galvinized (dry
>> wall screws) .. I predrill holes and use bees wax for lube. No
>> problins. WW

> Sorry, but that is the advice of inexperience. Dry wall screws are good
> for drywall.

I like dry wall screws, particularly the course threaded screws. Dry
wall screws are no good for exterior use, but are fine for indoor use
because they are case hardened so the heads never strip out. They are
also cheap and readily available.

> A normal wood screw with any head design other than straight blade or
> Phillips is far superior.

I like Phillips because they are the most common screw type and they
work good enough, particularly in drywall screws because the heads never
strip out. I have square head Robinson screws which work fine, but you
end up constantly changing bits. For that reason I like Phillips, and
my Swiss Army knife has Phillips and slotted but no Robertson. I've
fixed everything from pool tables to deck chairs with my knife, but not
when funky screw heads are used...

> FWIW I used dry wall screws for years until I learned/understood why the
> right screw for the job was the better choice. Dry wall screws are
> simply too light weight and brittle for working with hard woods.

I, like you, have used them for years. I don't recall a failure, ever,
other than using them outdoors. They last about a year out doors, and
indoors they simply work fine. Outdoors, SS is the only way to go,
indoors, SS is a waste of money. Drywall screws don't rust in Oak
unless in a wet environment, then everything other than brass and SS
rust, regardless of wood type. Of course, like everything, there are
Drywall screws and then there are drywall screws. They are not all the same.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 6/29/2011 8:29 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

>> I may have missed it, but I've seen nothing in this thread that would
>> lead me to believe anyone was leaving any screw heads exposed. I've
>> built lots of pieces with screws used on the back or bottom, and
>> occasionally on the top of very tall items, that were not visible.
>>
>
> It was brought up that they would streak from corrosion.

I've yet to see any screw streak from corrosion as long as the wood, any
type, remained dry. Indoor wood work generally remains dry, other than
in a steam room or bath.

> I'd doubt anyone would care about streaking on the bottom or back of a
> piece, even though it would still be lazy not to cover those up, imo.
> This leads one to believe if you care about streaking, they can be seen.

If the piece is subject to moisture to the extent it would streak, as in
out doors, then, stainless is the best answer. Otherwise it just
doesn't matter, long as the screws don't break or heads strip out easily.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

"Jack Stein" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

On 6/29/2011 8:48 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 6/29/2011 7:43 AM, WW wrote:

>> I use mostly oak. Use the gold colored and some times the galvinized (dry
>> wall screws) .. I predrill holes and use bees wax for lube. No
>> problins. WW

> Sorry, but that is the advice of inexperience. Dry wall screws are good
> for drywall.

I like dry wall screws, particularly the course threaded screws. Dry
wall screws are no good for exterior use, but are fine for indoor use
because they are case hardened so the heads never strip out. They are
also cheap and readily available.

> A normal wood screw with any head design other than straight blade or
> Phillips is far superior.

I like Phillips because they are the most common screw type and they
work good enough, particularly in drywall screws because the heads never
strip out. I have square head Robinson screws which work fine, but you
end up constantly changing bits. For that reason I like Phillips, and
my Swiss Army knife has Phillips and slotted but no Robertson. I've
fixed everything from pool tables to deck chairs with my knife, but not
when funky screw heads are used...

> FWIW I used dry wall screws for years until I learned/understood why the
> right screw for the job was the better choice. Dry wall screws are
> simply too light weight and brittle for working with hard woods.

I, like you, have used them for years. I don't recall a failure, ever,
other than using them outdoors. They last about a year out doors, and
indoors they simply work fine. Outdoors, SS is the only way to go,
indoors, SS is a waste of money. Drywall screws don't rust in Oak
unless in a wet environment, then everything other than brass and SS
rust, regardless of wood type. Of course, like everything, there are
Drywall screws and then there are drywall screws. They are not all the same.

================

Square Head and Robertson are two different heads that people confuse.
Robertson heads have a tapered recess with a Morse taper that self-locks
onto the bit. The Phillips look-a-like square head does not. Robertson has
no numbers, but rather colors, to identify sizes.

--

Eric

On 7/3/2011 7:36 PM, Eric wrote:

> Square Head and Robertson are two different heads that people confuse.
> Robertson heads have a tapered recess with a Morse taper that self-locks
> onto the bit. The Phillips look-a-like square head does not. Robertson
> has no numbers, but rather colors, to identify sizes.

I didn't know that, but regardless, my Swiss army knife doesn't have
that driver type, so when I'm sitting on Susie's deck and one of the
deck chairs a square head guy made her has a loose screw, my Swiss army
knife can't do much about it, so I prefer Phillips screws, but only for
reasons of consistency and commonality and they work good enough for me.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

"Jack Stein" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

On 7/3/2011 7:36 PM, Eric wrote:

> Square Head and Robertson are two different heads that people confuse.
> Robertson heads have a tapered recess with a Morse taper that self-locks
> onto the bit. The Phillips look-a-like square head does not. Robertson
> has no numbers, but rather colors, to identify sizes.

I didn't know that, but regardless, my Swiss army knife doesn't have
that driver type, so when I'm sitting on Susie's deck and one of the
deck chairs a square head guy made her has a loose screw, my Swiss army
knife can't do much about it, so I prefer Phillips screws, but only for
reasons of consistency and commonality and they work good enough for me.

====================
Philips screw heads were designed to eliminate overtorquing them by ensuring
the tip of the screwdriver ramps out of the slot and effectively stripping
the heads of the screw, as a side effect. They suck and have been replaced
by popular demand by many wanting a better system.

But have a look at this! Just when you thought you had seen it all!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

--

Eric

On 7/4/11 2:21 PM, Eric wrote:
> Philips screw heads were designed to eliminate overtorquing them by
> ensuring the tip of the screwdriver ramps out of the slot and
> effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side effect.
>
> --
>
> Eric
>

Bullshit. :-)
I don't believe that for a second.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/4/11 3:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:52:37 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 7/4/11 2:21 PM, Eric wrote:
>>> Philips screw heads were designed to eliminate overtorquing them by
>>> ensuring the tip of the screwdriver ramps out of the slot and
>>> effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side effect.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>
>> Bullshit. :-)
>> I don't believe that for a second.
>
> Don't know if you're pulling legs, but...
>

Yes and no... thus the smiley face.


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives
>
> Phillips Head:
> "Created by Henry F. Phillips, the Phillips screw drive was purposely
> designed to cam out when the screw stalled, to prevent the fastener
> damaging the work or the head, instead damaging the driver. This was
> caused by the relative difficulty in building torque limiting into the
> early drivers."
>
> If you want to be able to break the head, use a Posidriv (also invented by
> Phillips). ;-)
>
> (later)
> "Phillips drivers have an intentional angle on the flanks and rounded
> corners so they will cam out of the slot before a power tool will twist
> off the screw head. The Pozidriv screws and drivers have straight
> sided flanks."

1st. Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source in the world. It's
barely a step up from all of us in this newsgroup spouting off our
opinions, old wives tales, and stuff we heard a guy tell us that his
brother-in-laws' buddy's dad told him. (However, for the sake of this
discussion, I will stipulate that this page is 100% accurate.)

2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/4/2011 4:16 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
...

> ... An object being designed to
> "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."

roger that...

--

On 7/4/11 5:26 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 7/4/11 3:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:52:37 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/4/11 2:21 PM, Eric wrote:
>>>>> Philips screw heads were designed to eliminate overtorquing them by
>>>>> ensuring the tip of the screwdriver ramps out of the slot and
>>>>> effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit. :-)
>>>> I don't believe that for a second.
>>>
>>> Don't know if you're pulling legs, but...
>>>
>>
>> Yes and no... thus the smiley face.
>>
>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives
>>>
>>> Phillips Head:
>>> "Created by Henry F. Phillips, the Phillips screw drive was purposely
>>> designed to cam out when the screw stalled, to prevent the fastener
>>> damaging the work or the head, instead damaging the driver. This was
>>> caused by the relative difficulty in building torque limiting into the
>>> early drivers."
>>>
>>> If you want to be able to break the head, use a Posidriv (also invented by
>>> Phillips). ;-)
>>>
>>> (later)
>>> "Phillips drivers have an intentional angle on the flanks and rounded
>>> corners so they will cam out of the slot before a power tool will twist
>>> off the screw head. The Pozidriv screws and drivers have straight
>>> sided flanks."
>>
>> 1st. Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source in the world. It's
>> barely a step up from all of us in this newsgroup spouting off our
>> opinions, old wives tales, and stuff we heard a guy tell us that his
>> brother-in-laws' buddy's dad told him. (However, for the sake of this
>> discussion, I will stipulate that this page is 100% accurate.)
>
> True, but if you don't like any information you get here, or the web, exactly
> why is it that you waste your time here?

I explained that in my earlier post. I have some friends in here. I
enjoy the interaction. When I want info from experienced woodworkers, I
know who the 4 or 5 guys are who know what their talking about and who
constitutes the noise.


> If it's 100% accurate, exactly what
> is your beef?
>

google: stipulate


>> 2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>> effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>> to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
>
> Well, camming out of a Phillips driver has been pretty effective at stripping
> the heads for me. Works when dumb techs try Phillips drivers with Pozidriv
> screws, too. ;-)
>

:-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/4/11 8:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> 2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>> effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>> to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
>
> Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
> camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as drywall
> screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
> sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
> drywall.

I'm not the one who brought it up.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/4/2011 3:21 PM, Eric wrote:
> "Jack Stein" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> On 7/3/2011 7:36 PM, Eric wrote:
>
>> Square Head and Robertson are two different heads that people confuse.
>> Robertson heads have a tapered recess with a Morse taper that self-locks
>> onto the bit. The Phillips look-a-like square head does not. Robertson
>> has no numbers, but rather colors, to identify sizes.
>
> I didn't know that, but regardless, my Swiss army knife doesn't have
> that driver type, so when I'm sitting on Susie's deck and one of the
> deck chairs a square head guy made her has a loose screw, my Swiss army
> knife can't do much about it, so I prefer Phillips screws, but only for
> reasons of consistency and commonality and they work good enough for me.
>
> ====================
> Philips screw heads were designed to eliminate overtorquing them by
> ensuring the tip of the screwdriver ramps out of the slot and
> effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side effect.

Well the design fails as I seldom strip out a head, never on a drywall
screw, and have driven screws deep into wood, and have broken high
quality SS deck screws without ramping out of the slot. They may not be
as good as a Robertson, or a number of other designs, but certainly good
enough.

> They suck and have been replaced by popular demand by many wanting a better
> system.

Not quite yet, at least not in the US. When standard Swiss Army knife
comes with a Robertson driver instead of a Phillips, I'll believe the
Robertson is gaining ground:-)

> But have a look at this! Just when you thought you had seen it all!
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

I've seen all those and used many of them, still prefer Phillips for the
same reason the Swiss Army Knife comes with a Phillips rather than say a
TP3 or even a Robertson...

--
Jack
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.
http://jbstein.com

On 7/4/2011 10:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> On 7/4/11 8:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>>>> effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>>>> to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
>>>
>>> Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
>>> camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as drywall
>>> screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
>>> sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
>>> drywall.
>>
>> I'm not the one who brought it up.
>
> Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who has
> worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the result is a
> buggered up head that won't take much torque.

Case hardened drywall screws don't end up with a buggered up heads.

With minimum effort, a quality Phillips head screw works just fine for
99% of wood shop needs. The advantages of other types of heads is
mitigated by the fact Swiss army knives come with Phillips head drivers,
and Aunt Bessy has a Phillips head screwdriver in her kitchen junk
drawer, and she has no clue what a hexalobular socket head, or a
Robertson is, let alone have a means to attack it. Since Phillips works
good enough with few problems, it is the screw of choice... In my shop.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/5/2011 12:24 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 21:45:14 -0400,<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> 2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>>> effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>>> to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
>>
>> Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
>> camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as drywall
>> screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
>> sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
>> drywall.
>
> How many care if a drywall screw has a buggered head.

The same number of people that use them. That's probably why they
make'm so the heads don't "bugger".

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/5/2011 9:16 AM, m II wrote:

> -------------------------
> Drywall screws do not use a Philips head but rather a Frearson that
> looks the same to the untrained eye.

Looks the same to my "trained eye" as well. To be sure, I just went and
compared one of my drywall screw heads to a Mcfeely's Phillips head wood
screw, and they looked identical to me. Then a DAGS and found a million
sellers identifying drywall screws as "Phillips" head. I admit my eyes
ain't what they once were, but right now, I'm a bit skeptical.

--
Jack
When fish are in schools they sometimes take debate.
http://jbstein.com

On 7/5/2011 9:58 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/5/2011 8:46 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> On 7/4/2011 10:04 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> In article<[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>>>
>>>> On 7/4/11 8:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a
>>>>>> side
>>>>>> effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>>>>>> to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
>>>>>
>>>>> Might bolster your discussion if you present an example where the
>>>>> camming out of the driver is an integral part of use ~ such as drywall
>>>>> screws for example where the head of the screw is slightly counter
>>>>> sunk but not so deep that it has driven itself right through the
>>>>> drywall.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not the one who brought it up.
>>>
>>> Regardless of whether stripping the head is intentional, anybody who has
>>> worked with Phillips screws knows that when they cam out the result is a
>>> buggered up head that won't take much torque.
>>
>> Case hardened drywall screws don't end up with a buggered up heads.
>
> Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the
> screw shank breaks.

Honest, I don't recall ever breaking a shank on a drywall screw. I have
(rarely) broken shanks on regular screws, never (that I remember) on a
drywall screw. No reason to lie, just my personal experience. I abuse
the hell out of them too, because I know the head won't strip. I'm more
careful with plain screws where I know I can strip out the head w/o much
effort.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/5/2011 10:28 AM, Morgans wrote:
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the
> screw shank breaks.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> I think it is a difference of what material you are working with.
>
> If all you are fastening is softwood, you may get away using drywall
> screws.
>
> Torque down a drywall screw on a couple pieces of hardwood, and you will
> hear the snap of the shank breaking before the head gets driven flush,
> every time. ;-)

Torque any screw into hard wood, trying to drive the head flush, and you
are looking for trouble. Hard wood needs a pilot hole and a
countersink. Even in soft wood, a countersink is best or you can crush
the wood before you get the head flush.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/5/11 7:41 AM, m II wrote:
> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 7/4/11 3:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:52:37 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/4/11 2:21 PM, Eric wrote:
>>>>> Philips screw heads were designed to eliminate overtorquing them by
>>>>> ensuring the tip of the screwdriver ramps out of the slot and
>>>>> effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit. :-)
>>>> I don't believe that for a second.
>>>
>>> Don't know if you're pulling legs, but...
>>>
>>
>> Yes and no... thus the smiley face.
>>
>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives
>>>
>>> Phillips Head:
>>> "Created by Henry F. Phillips, the Phillips screw drive was purposely
>>> designed to cam out when the screw stalled, to prevent the fastener
>>> damaging the work or the head, instead damaging the driver. This was
>>> caused by the relative difficulty in building torque limiting into the
>>> early drivers."
>>>
>>> If you want to be able to break the head, use a Posidriv (also
>>> invented by
>>> Phillips). ;-)
>>>
>>> (later)
>>> "Phillips drivers have an intentional angle on the flanks and rounded
>>> corners so they will cam out of the slot before a power tool will twist
>>> off the screw head. The Pozidriv screws and drivers have straight
>>> sided flanks."
>>
>> 1st. Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source in the world. It's
>> barely a step up from all of us in this newsgroup spouting off our
>> opinions, old wives tales, and stuff we heard a guy tell us that his
>> brother-in-laws' buddy's dad told him. (However, for the sake of this
>> discussion, I will stipulate that this page is 100% accurate.)
>
> True, but if you don't like any information you get here, or the web,
> exactly
> why is it that you waste your time here? If it's 100% accurate, exactly
> what
> is your beef?
>
>> 2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>> effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>> to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."
>
> Well, camming out of a Phillips driver has been pretty effective at
> stripping
> the heads for me. Works when dumb techs try Phillips drivers with Pozidriv
> screws, too. ;-)
>
> --------------------------
>
> Mike gets bored easily and like to troll here under this name. Elsewhere
> he uses other names.
>
> Don't feed it.
>
>
> mike
>

Please show me one shred of evidence that I have ever posted anything on
a newsgroup or anywhere else on the internet using a different name.
I beg you to try. Please. You won't find any. Not because it's been
sufficiently hidden, but because it doesn't exist.

Unlike you, everything I post has a sig file with my website. In about 5
seconds you or anyone else can get contact info for me. How about you?
Anyone here can email me if they don't like something I wrote. How
about you?
They can call me to tell me I'm an @$$ or I'm full of $h!t. I don't
write anything in here I wouldn't say to someone's face. How about you?

To me, this is a bunch of buddies, sitting on a porch, having a beer,
giving each other some crap and laughing about it, and occasionally some
good info changes hands. :-)

I'll be waiting for any proof from you about your accusations.
Until then, kindly STFU.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Jack Stein" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

On 7/5/2011 10:28 AM, Morgans wrote:
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Their heads seldom become none useful, you just hear the click when the
> screw shank breaks.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> I think it is a difference of what material you are working with.
>
> If all you are fastening is softwood, you may get away using drywall
> screws.
>
> Torque down a drywall screw on a couple pieces of hardwood, and you will
> hear the snap of the shank breaking before the head gets driven flush,
> every time. ;-)

Torque any screw into hard wood, trying to drive the head flush, and you
are looking for trouble. Hard wood needs a pilot hole and a
countersink. Even in soft wood, a countersink is best or you can crush
the wood before you get the head flush.

=======================

While I agree that the drywalls screws are very hard , thin (#6), and
brittle and would snap easily that is hardly a fair comparison.
The trumpet style head has a very bad taper, by design, for pulling it into
a wood material at all. I am sure they are designed to not penetrate drywall
surfaces the way a one angle sloped flat head is tapered, will penetrate a
wood material.

--

Eric

On 7/5/11 2:02 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Jack Stein wrote:
>
>>
>> Honest, I don't recall ever breaking a shank on a drywall screw. I
>> have (rarely) broken shanks on regular screws, never (that I
>> remember) on a drywall screw. No reason to lie, just my personal
>> experience. I abuse the hell out of them too, because I know the
>> head won't strip. I'm more careful with plain screws where I know I
>> can strip out the head w/o much effort.
>
> I've broken many Jack. Some because I tried to go too far, and more because
> I bought cheap screws.
>

I've broken plenty. Cheap screws, or drywall screws for woodwork, or
deck screws.
If you try to drive them, take them out and drive them in again, that's
a sure fire way to break them from the heat from all that friction.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/6/2011 12:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

> I've broken plenty. Cheap screws, or drywall screws for woodwork, or
> deck screws.
> If you try to drive them, take them out and drive them in again, that's
> a sure fire way to break them from the heat from all that friction.

When I built my deck 20 years ago I used SS screws, figuring if I ever
needed to replace any of the decking, I could simply un-screw them.
Fortunately, I never needed to replace any decking but I tried to remove
two screws recently because they were not fully seated, and damn, not a
chance. Both heads snapped right off and it was a bear getting out the
shanks. If I ever have to remove this deck, I think I'll just set it on
fire:-) If I ever build another deck (very unlikely) I'd get a nail gun
and nail the sucker. Cheaper and easier and definitely easier to
de-struct than non-cooperative screws.

I think the wolmanized decking shrinks around the screw, and over the
years, the screw becomes one with the deck...

--
Jack
Don't believe everything you think!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/6/11 9:39 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> On 7/6/2011 12:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> I've broken plenty. Cheap screws, or drywall screws for woodwork, or
>> deck screws.
>> If you try to drive them, take them out and drive them in again, that's
>> a sure fire way to break them from the heat from all that friction.
>
> When I built my deck 20 years ago I used SS screws, figuring if I ever
> needed to replace any of the decking, I could simply un-screw them.
> Fortunately, I never needed to replace any decking but I tried to remove
> two screws recently because they were not fully seated, and damn, not a
> chance. Both heads snapped right off and it was a bear getting out the
> shanks. If I ever have to remove this deck, I think I'll just set it on
> fire:-) If I ever build another deck (very unlikely) I'd get a nail gun
> and nail the sucker. Cheaper and easier and definitely easier to
> de-struct than non-cooperative screws.
>
> I think the wolmanized decking shrinks around the screw, and over the
> years, the screw becomes one with the deck...
>

IIRC, stainless is harder than your average metal. Harder = more
brittle, right?
In any case, my deck has those color-coded (joke) deck screws and they
snap right off if I'm not super careful..... and some times even when I
am. I think you're right about the shrinking.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/5/2011 12:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 7/5/11 7:41 AM, m II wrote:

>> Mike gets bored easily and like to troll here under this name. Elsewhere
>> he uses other names.

> Please show me one shred of evidence that I have ever posted anything on
> a newsgroup or anywhere else on the internet using a different name.
> I beg you to try. Please. You won't find any. Not because it's been
> sufficiently hidden, but because it doesn't exist.

He couldn't possibly have been talking about you Mike, or the other Mike
for that matter, both of you are close to newsgroup perfection. And
you're a drummer to boot:-)

> Unlike you, everything I post has a sig file with my website. In about 5
> seconds you or anyone else can get contact info for me. How about you?
> Anyone here can email me if they don't like something I wrote. How about
> you?
> They can call me to tell me I'm an @$$ or I'm full of $h!t. I don't
> write anything in here I wouldn't say to someone's face. How about you?

> To me, this is a bunch of buddies, sitting on a porch, having a beer,
> giving each other some crap and laughing about it, and occasionally some
> good info changes hands. :-)

It shows buddy, it shows.

> I'll be waiting for any proof from you about your accusations.
> Until then, kindly STFU.

I wouldn't sit on my hands waiting for either to happen.

--
Jack
Mr. Geithner, May I Borrow Your TurboTax?
http://jbstein.com

On 7/5/2011 12:42 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/5/2011 10:12 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> On 7/5/2011 10:28 AM, Morgans wrote:

>>> Torque down a drywall screw on a couple pieces of hardwood, and you will
>>> hear the snap of the shank breaking before the head gets driven flush,
>>> every time. ;-)
>>
>> Torque any screw into hard wood, trying to drive the head flush, and you
>> are looking for trouble. Hard wood needs a pilot hole and a countersink.
>> Even in soft wood, a countersink is best or you can crush the wood
>> before you get the head flush.

> Actually I can use a regular #8 flat head square drive screw with out a
> pilot hole in 3/4" red oak. Using an impact driver, when the head begins
> to bury inside the wood the wood will split. That was just to test the
> strength of the impact driver.
>
> And that is why I switched to square drive screws 20+ years ago.

OK guys, I just exited my shop after testing this out.

Using a 2" coarse thread #8 head dry wall screw, a Mcfeely's Robertson
2" #8 and a Home Depot 2" #8 outdoor screw and a scrap piece of 1 1/2
white oak (harder than red oak). I drove all of them right down past
the countersink level with my impact driver. I did this 5 times with
the drywall screw to see if a hot screw would snap as Mike suggested,
and it was hot as hell, but didn't snap.

No lubrication used, no pilot holes, no broken heads, no broken shanks
and no cam out with *any* of them. I even drove a couple of them all
the way through until the white oak split. So much for Morgans
statement that the drywall screw will snap every time. Wrongo!

The Drywall screw actually was the easiest to get started I think
because it has the sharpest point, and to my surprise, the McFeely
Robertson was the hardest to get started and, here's the surprise, was
harder to keep the drill bit in when starting the screw. That may have
simply been because the point wasn't sharp as the drywall screw.

I don't think I ever tried driving a screw into a 1 1/2" piece of white,
or red oak w/o drilling a pilot hole before. The impact driver did it
with ease, and all the screws handled it just fine. The countersink did
exactly what I said as well, not a clean sink, but mostly with some
broken fibers. One of the holes countersunk clean, no clue why.

I didn't try this with a regular drill, might do that next. Impact
drivers I think are easier on the screws, the wood and the guy doing the
driving. They are awesome. They don't un-screw my deck screws though,
snap the heads off those suckers instantly.

--
Jack
Don't believe everything you think!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/6/11 11:55 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> On 7/5/2011 12:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 7/5/11 7:41 AM, m II wrote:
>
>>> Mike gets bored easily and like to troll here under this name. Elsewhere
>>> he uses other names.
>
>> Please show me one shred of evidence that I have ever posted anything on
>> a newsgroup or anywhere else on the internet using a different name.
>> I beg you to try. Please. You won't find any. Not because it's been
>> sufficiently hidden, but because it doesn't exist.
>
> He couldn't possibly have been talking about you Mike, or the other Mike
> for that matter, both of you are close to newsgroup perfection. And
> you're a drummer to boot:-)
>
>> Unlike you, everything I post has a sig file with my website. In about 5
>> seconds you or anyone else can get contact info for me. How about you?
>> Anyone here can email me if they don't like something I wrote. How about
>> you?
>> They can call me to tell me I'm an @$$ or I'm full of $h!t. I don't
>> write anything in here I wouldn't say to someone's face. How about you?
>
>> To me, this is a bunch of buddies, sitting on a porch, having a beer,
>> giving each other some crap and laughing about it, and occasionally some
>> good info changes hands. :-)
>
> It shows buddy, it shows.
>
>> I'll be waiting for any proof from you about your accusations.
>> Until then, kindly STFU.
>
> I wouldn't sit on my hands waiting for either to happen.
>

Thanks, Jack. Next one's on me. :-)

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

"Swingman" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On 7/6/2011 6:32 PM, Leon wrote:

> I gotta say, I have never never never ever heard of or seen a dry wall
> screw in a #8 or larger. Where do you get them?

They're around:

http://fasteners.hardwarestore.com/19-72-drywall-screws-packaged.aspx

=============================

Good for atomic blast rated drywall thicker than 2" :->

Handy for many other things too.

--

Eric

On 7/6/2011 7:32 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 7/6/2011 3:46 PM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> On 7/5/2011 12:42 PM, Leon wrote:

>>> Actually I can use a regular #8 flat head square drive screw with out a
>>> pilot hole in 3/4" red oak. Using an impact driver, when the head begins
>>> to bury inside the wood the wood will split. That was just to test the
>>> strength of the impact driver.
>>>
>>> And that is why I switched to square drive screws 20+ years ago.
>>
>> OK guys, I just exited my shop after testing this out.
>>
>> Using a 2" coarse thread #8 head dry wall screw, a Mcfeely's Robertson
>> 2" #8 and a Home Depot 2" #8 outdoor screw and a scrap piece of 1 1/2
>> white oak (harder than red oak). I drove all of them right down past the
>> countersink level with my impact driver. I did this 5 times with the
>> drywall screw to see if a hot screw would snap as Mike suggested, and it
>> was hot as hell, but didn't snap.

> I gotta say, I have never never never ever heard of or seen a dry wall
> screw in a #8 or larger. Where do you get them?

I got them at a builders supply. The heads are #8 because before I
posted the message, I compared the head to a screw chart, then put it up
against a the head of the Mcfeely's screw. The body looks a bit thinner
than a standard #8 wood screw, but the head is definitely a #8 and
that's why I specifically said #8 "head".

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/7/2011 4:20 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Jack Stein<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>>
>> I didn't try this with a regular drill, might do that next. Impact
>> drivers I think are easier on the screws, the wood and the guy doing
>> the driving. They are awesome. They don't un-screw my deck screws
>> though, snap the heads off those suckers instantly.
>>
>
> I'd be interested to see the results of using a drill/driver. I would
> venture a guess (hm... sounds like a hypothesis) that the regular drill
> will damage the screws much more than the impact driver.

OK, just did the test, only with the drywall screw though, and it went
in, didn't snap, and counter sunk the head almost completely, but not
quite. Much harder to keep a regular driver in the screw, required a
lot more down pressure than the impact. Anyway, it still didn't snap
and since I will always drill a pilot hole and countersink when
screwing hardwood, worrying about snapping a drywall screw is last on my
list of worries.

Also, since Leon questioned the screw size, I compared it to my chart
again, and it might be a #7 screw head not an 8. I normally don't look
at other than even numbers, and it is very very close to the same size
head on the #8 McFeely screw, and obviously larger than a #6.
Regardless, the body size looks more like a the body on a #6 standard
screw head.

--
Jack
Got Change: Supply and Demand ======> Command and Control!
http://jbstein.com

Jack Stein wrote:
> On 7/7/2011 4:20 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
>> Jack Stein<[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> *snip*
>>>
>>> I didn't try this with a regular drill, might do that next. Impact
>>> drivers I think are easier on the screws, the wood and the guy doing
>>> the driving. They are awesome. They don't un-screw my deck screws
>>> though, snap the heads off those suckers instantly.
>>>
>>
>> I'd be interested to see the results of using a drill/driver. I
>> would venture a guess (hm... sounds like a hypothesis) that the
>> regular drill will damage the screws much more than the impact
>> driver.
>
> OK, just did the test, only with the drywall screw though, and it went
> in, didn't snap, and counter sunk the head almost completely, but not
> quite. Much harder to keep a regular driver in the screw, required a
> lot more down pressure than the impact. Anyway, it still didn't snap
> and since I will always drill a pilot hole and countersink when
> screwing hardwood, worrying about snapping a drywall screw is last on
> my list of worries.

You do realize that the heads on DW and wood screws are totally different
even though they are both "flat", yes?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 7/7/2011 11:46 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Jack Stein wrote:

>> OK, just did the test, only with the drywall screw though, and it went
>> in, didn't snap, and counter sunk the head almost completely, but not
>> quite. Much harder to keep a regular driver in the screw, required a
>> lot more down pressure than the impact. Anyway, it still didn't snap
>> and since I will always drill a pilot hole and countersink when
>> screwing hardwood, worrying about snapping a drywall screw is last on
>> my list of worries.
>
> You do realize that the heads on DW and wood screws are totally different
> even though they are both "flat", yes?

Yes, bugle heads on dw screws. They counter sink fine with a regular
countersink, not so good on their own.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/6/11 3:46 PM, Jack Stein wrote:
>
> I drove all of them right down past the
> countersink level with my impact driver. I did this 5 times with the
> drywall screw to see if a hot screw would snap as Mike suggested, and it
> was hot as hell, but didn't snap.
>

I'm guessing since it's already heat treated, heating up from friction
won't effect it.
Friction heat buildup on an un-heat treated screw will make it prone to
snapping.

ASAIK, the heat treating done to drywall screws makes them resistant to
stripping out at the heads and resistant to breaking from the friction
of being driven by powered drivers. The treatment also makes them very
brittle and not good for resisting heavy shear loads, like on holding up
decks or cabinets.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/7/11 6:19 AM, m II wrote:
> Probably not original Phillips head design anyway.
>
> http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips-Plus-So-Much-Mor/step51/ACRreg-Phillipsreg/
>

Great link... bookmarked.

By the way, I'm still waiting for some evidence to support your
allegations.
Or an apology. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/7/2011 1:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

> ASAIK, the heat treating done to drywall screws makes them resistant to
> stripping out at the heads and resistant to breaking from the friction
> of being driven by powered drivers. The treatment also makes them very
> brittle and not good for resisting heavy shear loads, like on holding up
> decks or cabinets.

Screws are not designed for shear loads. Screws are really just clamps
and they work by clamping two pieces of wood together.

I guess a screw expert might come up with a bunch reasons they should be
only used for the intended purpose, but my experience, which is
considerable, is they work fine for most, not all, things wood.

I agree with you on the heat treating of DW screws making them more
brittle, they don't bend like a regular steel screw, but the heads
simply NEVER strip out.

I've been using them (not exclusively of course) for many years, and
don't recall ever snapping one. That's why I did the test. I don't
recall driving any screws into Oak w/o drilling a pilot hole, so I gave
it a shot, and reported what happened. Anyone with an impact driver,
drywall screw and a hunk of Oak can test it themselves. That doesn't
mean they are unsnappable, just that they work good enough that snapping
is not that much of an issue.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/8/11 8:30 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
> On 7/7/2011 1:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> ASAIK, the heat treating done to drywall screws makes them resistant to
>> stripping out at the heads and resistant to breaking from the friction
>> of being driven by powered drivers. The treatment also makes them very
>> brittle and not good for resisting heavy shear loads, like on holding up
>> decks or cabinets.
>
> Screws are not designed for shear loads. Screws are really just clamps
> and they work by clamping two pieces of wood together.
>

While I agree with this, anytime you use a cabinet screw to hang a
cabinet, they are under shear load.


> I guess a screw expert might come up with a bunch reasons they should be
> only used for the intended purpose, but my experience, which is
> considerable, is they work fine for most, not all, things wood.
>
> I agree with you on the heat treating of DW screws making them more
> brittle, they don't bend like a regular steel screw, but the heads
> simply NEVER strip out.
>
> I've been using them (not exclusively of course) for many years, and
> don't recall ever snapping one. That's why I did the test. I don't
> recall driving any screws into Oak w/o drilling a pilot hole, so I gave
> it a shot, and reported what happened. Anyone with an impact driver,
> drywall screw and a hunk of Oak can test it themselves. That doesn't
> mean they are unsnappable, just that they work good enough that snapping
> is not that much of an issue.
>

The other thing I haven't seen taken into consideration in this thread
is that not all drywall screws are the same. In the collection I have in
my shop, gathered over the last 15 or so years, there are probably 6
different designs. From course to fine thread, thick to thin shoulder,
depth of threads, etc, etc.... there are lots of different ones that act
differently from one another.

Some of my older ones have a much more narrow un-threaded shoulder than
others, so it stands to reason that they would be more prone to breaking
in that area.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 7/8/2011 12:37 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 7/8/11 8:30 AM, Jack Stein wrote:
>> On 7/7/2011 1:04 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

>> Screws are not designed for shear loads. Screws are really just clamps
>> and they work by clamping two pieces of wood together.

> While I agree with this, anytime you use a cabinet screw to hang a
> cabinet, they are under shear load.

I don't think they are, but hey, I'm not a scientist or a screw
aficionado.... Well perhaps an aficionado, but not a scientist.

> The other thing I haven't seen taken into consideration in this thread
> is that not all drywall screws are the same. In the collection I have in
> my shop, gathered over the last 15 or so years, there are probably 6
> different designs. From course to fine thread, thick to thin shoulder,
> depth of threads, etc, etc.... there are lots of different ones that act
> differently from one another.

Yes, when I first replied to Leon, I mentioned there are drywall screws,
and there are drywall screws. I've collected a variety as you have,
BUT, all the screws I purchased at the builder supply place that sells
mostly drywall, drywall products, and a bunch if concrete stuff for
builders, have looked and behaved about the same. I guess professional
drywall guys want a screw that is reasonably priced and not going to
strip, break and so on.

> Some of my older ones have a much more narrow un-threaded shoulder than
> others, so it stands to reason that they would be more prone to breaking
> in that area.

You would think so, and apparently that has been some peoples
experience. Screw failure to me has been rare, most notably to my deck
screws, and only when trying to extract them after 20 years. I've never
stripped a DW screw, and they work quite well when used appropriately.
I would not use them to hang a kitchen cabinet, primarily because I
don't have any near big enough for my tastes in cabinet hanging. I
don't like the fine threaded ones either, I like the course ones for all
woodwork.

--
Jack
You Can't Fix Stupid, but You Can Vote it Out!
http://jbstein.com

On 7/6/2011 6:32 PM, Leon wrote:

> I gotta say, I have never never never ever heard of or seen a dry wall
> screw in a #8 or larger. Where do you get them?

They're around:

http://fasteners.hardwarestore.com/19-72-drywall-screws-packaged.aspx

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:52:37 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 7/4/11 2:21 PM, Eric wrote:
>> Philips screw heads were designed to eliminate overtorquing them by
>> ensuring the tip of the screwdriver ramps out of the slot and
>> effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side effect.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Eric
>>
>
>Bullshit. :-)
>I don't believe that for a second.

Don't know if you're pulling legs, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

Phillips Head:
"Created by Henry F. Phillips, the Phillips screw drive was purposely
designed to cam out when the screw stalled, to prevent the fastener
damaging the work or the head, instead damaging the driver. This was
caused by the relative difficulty in building torque limiting into the
early drivers."

If you want to be able to break the head, use a Posidriv (also invented by
Phillips). ;-)

(later)
"Phillips drivers have an intentional angle on the flanks and rounded
corners so they will cam out of the slot before a power tool will twist
off the screw head. The Pozidriv screws and drivers have straight
sided flanks."

wrote in message news:[email protected]...

On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 16:16:26 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 7/4/11 3:38 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 04 Jul 2011 14:52:37 -0500, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/4/11 2:21 PM, Eric wrote:
>>>> Philips screw heads were designed to eliminate overtorquing them by
>>>> ensuring the tip of the screwdriver ramps out of the slot and
>>>> effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side effect.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bullshit. :-)
>>> I don't believe that for a second.
>>
>> Don't know if you're pulling legs, but...
>>
>
>Yes and no... thus the smiley face.
>
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives
>>
>> Phillips Head:
>> "Created by Henry F. Phillips, the Phillips screw drive was purposely
>> designed to cam out when the screw stalled, to prevent the fastener
>> damaging the work or the head, instead damaging the driver. This was
>> caused by the relative difficulty in building torque limiting into the
>> early drivers."
>>
>> If you want to be able to break the head, use a Posidriv (also invented
>> by
>> Phillips). ;-)
>>
>> (later)
>> "Phillips drivers have an intentional angle on the flanks and rounded
>> corners so they will cam out of the slot before a power tool will
>> twist
>> off the screw head. The Pozidriv screws and drivers have straight
>> sided flanks."
>
>1st. Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source in the world. It's
>barely a step up from all of us in this newsgroup spouting off our
>opinions, old wives tales, and stuff we heard a guy tell us that his
>brother-in-laws' buddy's dad told him. (However, for the sake of this
>discussion, I will stipulate that this page is 100% accurate.)

True, but if you don't like any information you get here, or the web,
exactly
why is it that you waste your time here? If it's 100% accurate, exactly
what
is your beef?

>2nd. It's the "effectively stripping the heads of the screw, as a side
>effect" editorial that clogged my BS filter. An object being designed
>to "cam out" is completely different from "stripping the heads."

Well, camming out of a Phillips driver has been pretty effective at
stripping
the heads for me. Works when dumb techs try Phillips drivers with Pozidriv
screws, too. ;-)

--------------------------

Mike gets bored easily and like to troll here under this name. Elsewhere he
uses other names.

Don't feed it.


mike

On 6/29/2011 7:43 AM, WW wrote:
> "Steve Barker"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Looking for recommendations for general purpose wood screws. i mostly
>> work with red oak varying from 1 1/8" and thinner. I just want a decent
>> american made screw i can take in and out (if need be) without tearing the
>> shit out of the head of the screw. (like the locally purchased ones)
>>
>> I found rockler and mcfeeleys so far. Do each of them sell decent screws?
>>
>> thanks!
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Barker
>> remove the "not" from my address to email
>
> I use mostly oak. Use the gold colored and some times the galvinized (dry
> wall screws) .. I predrill holes and use bees wax for lube. No problins. WW
>
>

Sorry, but that is the advice of inexperience. Dry wall screws are good
for drywall.

A normal wood screw with any head design other than straight blade or
Phillips is far superior.

FWIW I used dry wall screws for years until I learned/understood why the
right screw for the job was the better choice. Dry wall screws are
simply too light weight and brittle for working with hard woods.