I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there. I'm
thinking it's due to pressure changes when crossing the mountains. One
thought I have is to let the blocks sit for a month to let them normalize
then drill and fill them. I tried to talk to the tree designer about the
warrantee.
On Feb 16, 9:43 am, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
> I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
> California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there. I'm
> thinking it's due to pressure changes when crossing the mountains. One
> thought I have is to let the blocks sit for a month to let them normalize
> then drill and fill them. I tried to talk to the tree designer about the
> warrantee.
Have you looked at steamed beech. My supplier has it for about the
same cost and if I remember right he said that the steaming not only
evens out the color it also relieves the internal pressure created by
drying and makes the wood less likely to split. At least that's what
he told me. Hope that helps. bc
Humidity is usually the cause of splitting, specifically changes in
humidity that are not even within the wood. One part dries faster than
another and this stresses the wood and can lead to cracks.
I am guessing these items are not finished or have a very porous
finish. A better finish will slow down humidity changes and reduce
cracking.
Brad
====
trim==
I suspect it is the drilling. I assume you have a 4/4 thick piece of
stock and you drill a bunch of holes 1/2 to 3/4 of the way through in
a very tight patten. Then those are then filled with some bristles.
Drilling all those holes opens the wood up to some incredible
absorbtion and exhaustion (is that a word) so the speed at which this
wood will start to dry out or absorbe is radically accelerated with
all that new surface area and path to internal zones.
I think maybe not drilling so deep, drilling and letting set for a
month or making the handle thicker or devising some pattern of kerfs
to help equalize the stress on the non drilled side mught be the
ticket.
Another possibility might be to dunk the whole wood piece in shellac
before gluing in the bristles. This also might minimize the
absorbtion.
BW
On Feb 16, 7:43 am, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
> I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
> California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there. I'm
> thinking it's due to pressure changes when crossing the mountains. One
> thought I have is to let the blocks sit for a month to let them normalize
> then drill and fill them. I tried to talk to the tree designer about the
> warrantee.
"Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
> California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there.
I'm
> thinking it's due to pressure changes when crossing the mountains. One
> thought I have is to let the blocks sit for a month to let them normalize
> then drill and fill them. I tried to talk to the tree designer about the
> warrantee.
>
>
Some items like ice cream and potato chips are shipped via the southern
route to avoid the pressure problem. I suppose that you could make up a
test batch and place them in a vacuum chamber to simulate the atmospheric
change.
As a side story when I was driving a truck, I had a pint size bottle of
Clorox In my laundry bag and when I got to Wyoming I smelled bleach and
found that the pressure in the bottle had broken the cap and the stuff had
leaked all over my bunk. Punched some nice holes in my sleeping bag and my
jeans. Also once when I stopped to make my self a sandwich, I twisted the
top on the mustard bottle and the pressure inside sprayed my face and shirt
with mustard.
--
Roger Shoaf
About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.
On Feb 16, 11:20 am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
> >I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
> >California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there. I'm
> >thinking it's due to pressure changes when crossing the mountains. One
> >thought I have is to let the blocks sit for a month to let them normalize
> >then drill and fill them. I tried to talk to the tree designer about the
> >warrantee.
>
> More likely, it's due to humidity changes.
I'd say it's certain. People fly airplanes made with
wood. They experience much larger pressure changes
applied much more rapidly and they do not (usually)
fall apart at altitude.
(To Mr Gardner)
Are you up on the North Coast?
Is there a difference in 'survival' rate between
brushes made in the (dry) winter vs those made
in the (humid) summer?
--
FF
On Feb 17, 5:45 am, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, "Tom
> > Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>
> >>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
>
> >>> Do you have to use beech? Birch might be a better choice.
>
> >>Birch is too soft. I can use Maple but the cost...
>
> > You'd better check that again. Yellow birch is only about four percent
> > less
> > hard than beech -- and sweet birch is about ten percent *harder*.
>
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> > It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
>
> I talked to my supplier and the cost shocked me!
No surprise. There is a lot of beech in Ohio, not
much birch. A big part of the cost of wood is
transportation cost. There is also a lot less
demand for beech, it's primary use seems to
be for making fake maple furniture.
--
FF
On Feb 17, 1:51 am, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Another possibility might be to dunk the whole wood piece in shellac
> > before gluing in the bristles. This also might minimize the
> > absorbtion.
>
> > BW
>
> Hole depth must be to spec, dimmentions must be to spec. The brush goes
> into food service and no chemicals are allowed. Unfortunatly, there's no
> room to increase cost or raise price.
Beech is tight grained and has a reputation for being
difficult to kiln dry without a lot of waste. A local
sawyer will not even try to kiln dry it in thicknesses,
over 4/4. Probably your supplier needs to dry
it on a schedule that holds it at temperature longer,
which will raise the cost.
Shellac would probably help too, but you've
indicated that it would have to go through a
long approval process, despite being approved
in other food applications.
--
FF
Fri, Feb 16, 2007, 3:43pm (EST+5) [email protected] (Tom=A0Gardner) doth
sayeth:
I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
California <snip>
Who can blaim 'em? I wouldn't want to live their either.
JOAT
When in doubt, go to sleep.
- Mully Small
In article <[email protected]>, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Do you have to use beech? Birch might be a better choice.
>Birch is too soft. I can use Maple but the cost...
You'd better check that again. Yellow birch is only about four percent less
hard than beech -- and sweet birch is about ten percent *harder*.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
In article <[email protected]>, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>Hole depth must be to spec, dimmentions must be to spec. The brush goes
>into food service and no chemicals are allowed. Unfortunatly, there's no
>room to increase cost or raise price.
Shellac is food-safe. For that matter, pretty much any cured finish is
food-safe, but I'm pretty sure that shellac already has FDA approval
(considering that it's used to coat candy and pills).
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I suspect it is the drilling. I assume you have a 4/4 thick piece of
> stock and you drill a bunch of holes 1/2 to 3/4 of the way through in
> a very tight patten. Then those are then filled with some bristles.
> Drilling all those holes opens the wood up to some incredible
> absorbtion and exhaustion (is that a word) so the speed at which this
> wood will start to dry out or absorbe is radically accelerated with
> all that new surface area and path to internal zones.
That's true!
>
> I think maybe not drilling so deep, drilling and letting set for a
> month or making the handle thicker or devising some pattern of kerfs
> to help equalize the stress on the non drilled side mught be the
> ticket.
>
> Another possibility might be to dunk the whole wood piece in shellac
> before gluing in the bristles. This also might minimize the
> absorbtion.
>
> BW
Hole depth must be to spec, dimmentions must be to spec. The brush goes
into food service and no chemicals are allowed. Unfortunatly, there's no
room to increase cost or raise price.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Tom
> Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>>
>>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>
>>> Do you have to use beech? Birch might be a better choice.
>
>>Birch is too soft. I can use Maple but the cost...
>
> You'd better check that again. Yellow birch is only about four percent
> less
> hard than beech -- and sweet birch is about ten percent *harder*.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
I talked to my supplier and the cost shocked me!
"Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hole depth must be to spec, dimmentions must be to spec. The brush goes
> into food service and no chemicals are allowed. Unfortunatly, there's no
> room to increase cost or raise price.
>
>
Well, easy solution is to climate-control the trip. Assuming that it's not
the wonderful dry heat of the interior of CA that's doing you in on arrival.
Beech isn't the nicest wood, and the rays are a built-in point of weakness
which your QS methods might be putting at even greater risk.
Beech sure splits easily for the furnace.
In article <[email protected]>, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "Tom
>> Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>> Do you have to use beech? Birch might be a better choice.
>>
>>>Birch is too soft. I can use Maple but the cost...
>>
>> You'd better check that again. Yellow birch is only about four percent less
>> hard than beech -- and sweet birch is about ten percent *harder*.
>>
>I talked to my supplier and the cost shocked me!
Maybe you need to talk to another supplier.
Here's another option for you, too: buy birch, but in a lower grade.
Presumably, these brush handles are fairly small items; I'm guessing that you
could probably cut one from a blank about a foot long by an inch or so square,
no?
You don't have to buy FAS or Select lumber to get clear cuttings that small;
#2 or #3 COM will work just fine. Sure, there's more work involved in cutting
the stock, but the difference in the cost of material is *huge*. And the waste
material can be burned to help heat your building.
Whether that difference in material cost is big enough to compensate for the
extra cost in preparation is something that only you can decide. But I think
it's worth considering.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Tom
> Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>>I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
>>California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there.
>>I'm
>>thinking it's due to pressure changes when crossing the mountains. One
>>thought I have is to let the blocks sit for a month to let them normalize
>>then drill and fill them. I tried to talk to the tree designer about the
>>warrantee.
>
> More likely, it's due to humidity changes.
>
> You might talk to your supplier about drying the lumber to a lower
> moisture
> content. That will drive up your lumber costs, though, and probably by
> more
> than your current five percent loss rate.
>
> Do you have to use beech? Birch might be a better choice.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Birch is too soft. I can use Maple but the cost...
> Beech is tight grained and has a reputation for being
> difficult to kiln dry without a lot of waste. A local
> sawyer will not even try to kiln dry it in thicknesses,
> over 4/4. Probably your supplier needs to dry
> it on a schedule that holds it at temperature longer,
> which will raise the cost.
>
> Shellac would probably help too, but you've
> indicated that it would have to go through a
> long approval process, despite being approved
> in other food applications.
>
> --
>
> FF
>
>
If you ever want to hear a good belly laugh, order a bunk or two of 6/4
beech FAS.
> (To Mr Gardner)
> Are you up on the North Coast?
> Is there a difference in 'survival' rate between
> brushes made in the (dry) winter vs those made
> in the (humid) summer?
>
> --
>
> FF
>
It comes in spurts. Sometime we see fine checking in a batch and know there
will be trouble. We try to weed out the worst and pray for the best. We've
got the kilning conditions, the weather and the trees themselves to deal
with. What can you say...it's wood!
On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:43:57 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
<tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
>California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there. I'm
>thinking it's due to pressure changes when crossing the mountains. One
>thought I have is to let the blocks sit for a month to let them normalize
>then drill and fill them. I tried to talk to the tree designer about the
>warrantee.
If everything else is fine, ie if you could magically teleport the
brushes to the destination they would acclimate fine without cracking,
then I would look into how to package them to insulate them from the
changes they see in shipping rather than how to change the product.
-Leuf
In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Gardner <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
>California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there...
<...snipped...>
5% loss? Man, what a beech.
--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org
In article <[email protected]>, "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
>California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there. I'm
>thinking it's due to pressure changes when crossing the mountains. One
>thought I have is to let the blocks sit for a month to let them normalize
>then drill and fill them. I tried to talk to the tree designer about the
>warrantee.
More likely, it's due to humidity changes.
You might talk to your supplier about drying the lumber to a lower moisture
content. That will drive up your lumber costs, though, and probably by more
than your current five percent loss rate.
Do you have to use beech? Birch might be a better choice.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
> Maybe you need to talk to another supplier.
>
> Here's another option for you, too: buy birch, but in a lower grade.
>
> Presumably, these brush handles are fairly small items; I'm guessing that
> you
> could probably cut one from a blank about a foot long by an inch or so
> square,
> no?
>
> You don't have to buy FAS or Select lumber to get clear cuttings that
> small;
> #2 or #3 COM will work just fine. Sure, there's more work involved in
> cutting
> the stock, but the difference in the cost of material is *huge*. And the
> waste
> material can be burned to help heat your building.
>
> Whether that difference in material cost is big enough to compensate for
> the
> extra cost in preparation is something that only you can decide. But I
> think
> it's worth considering.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Valid points, all. However, this is surely a twisty road. I've discovered
that low grades of lumber have huge hidden costs of labor per good block,
electricity, handling costs and disposal costs. I know it doesn't make
sence but our studies over the past 20 years or so show it. I think that
with a huge decree of computer controlled automation, it could work but
we're not there.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Gardner" <tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunatly, there's no
>>>room to increase cost or raise price.
>
> If you have a 5% loss from damage, there is at least 4 1/2% room in the
> price to correct it. .
>
Good point! My first experiment will only cost inventory expences to age
the blocks for a month or so. I'll keep records and lot# and every part has
a date of Mfg, stamped when it gets made into a brush. I only have beech
with no finish approved, this customer took 6 months to approve a change in
handle screw head from Philips to square, and they freaked about that...I
had to beg.
In article <[email protected]>, Leuf <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:43:57 GMT, "Tom Gardner"
><tom(nospam)@ohiobrush.com> wrote:
>
>>I make wire brushes from KD Beech. It is a problem when we ship to
>>California because 5% of the brushes split by the time they get there. I'm
>>thinking it's due to pressure changes when crossing the mountains. One
>>thought I have is to let the blocks sit for a month to let them normalize
>>then drill and fill them. I tried to talk to the tree designer about the
>>warrantee.
>
>If everything else is fine, ie if you could magically teleport the
>brushes to the destination they would acclimate fine without cracking,
>then I would look into how to package them to insulate them from the
>changes they see in shipping rather than how to change the product.
Perhaps -- but I think substituting yellow birch for beech should be the first
try. The large difference in hardness imagined by the OP just doesn't exist,
and birch is more stable.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.