Two Home Depot experiences I have to share...
* Paint *
I needed a can of black spray paint for a project. I was looking
through the cans for flat black. A nearby employee asked if I
needed help and I replied no I just need a can of flat black
paint as I picked up a can of rustoleum.
Employee: "That's not paint."
Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? What is it?"
Employee: "That's protective enamel"
Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. Here's what you want"
(handing me a can of Painters Touch)
Me: "Well I'll take my chances on the protective enamel"
* Stain *
I wanted some green stain and it had to be mixed. I wanted oil base
but all they could mix was minwax water base. Oh well it was a small
project. So I had the girl mix it. I brought some wood samples with
me to test it. I asked he some questions as she mixed and after
answering them she said:
Employee: "Contrary to popular belief here I do know what I am
doing."
Me: "Could you put some stain on this sample so I can see what
it looks like"
Employee: "Sure" (takes the wood, paints it with stain then
puts a hair dryer on it till it is dry)
Me: "Uhhhh"
Employee: "What?"
Me: "Could you put some on this piece and after a bit wipe it off?"
Employee: (weird look on her face) "I guess..." (honors my strange
request)
On Oct 16, 7:32=A0pm, phorbin <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <4e8647ae-3f5a-4cc5-aaaf-fd6466365c31
> @y31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> > How do you know it is enamel? Bend a piece of metal with enamel on it
> > and it will squeek, scream and shatter... No paint will ever achieve
> > that hardness. Enamel, the word, as used by paint manufacturers, is
> > another example of the unvarnished lies that marketing departments
> > will ram down the throats of the unsuspecting consumers.
>
> > IOW... it ain't fucking enamel, it is paint.
>
> In my family there was a distinction made between enamel and enamel
> paint.
>
> We were always sent to the hardware store to buy "enamel paint".
>
> Enamel when it's not tooth enamel is porcelain or vitreous enamel.
>
> Society gets lazy.
People don't even bother trying to find out where the word came from.
hint:
the same root as smelt (melt) high-heat bonding and liquifying, glass
or porcelain on metals or pottery, glaze.
The high-gloss paint is only called that because when it dries, it
looks a bit like emaille.
But, hey...
On Oct 9, 8:08=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 10:43:42 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 8, 9:09=A0pm, sbnjhfty <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> I needed a can of black ...picked up a can of rustoleum.
>
> >> Employee: "That's not paint."
> >> Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? =A0What is it?"
> >> Employee: "That's protective enamel"
> >> Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
> >> Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. =A0Here's what you wan=
t"
>
> >The classic 'enamel' isn't a paint, it doesn't dry and harden.
> >Rather, it oxidizes and hardens. =A0That can take a week or more,
> >or you can bake it to get a faster resolution.
>
> >Spray 'enamel' might be loosely labeled and could be non-classical
> >in this sense, though.
>
> Rattle can label: =A0Contains some enamel.
Enamel is not just a compound it is a process as well>>>>>>> hight
temp melting of minerals.
"sbnjhfty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Two Home Depot experiences I have to share...
>
> * Paint *
> I needed a can of black spray paint for a project. I was looking
> through the cans for flat black. A nearby employee asked if I
> needed help and I replied no I just need a can of flat black
> paint as I picked up a can of rustoleum.
>
> Employee: "That's not paint."
> Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? What is it?"
> Employee: "That's protective enamel"
> Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
> Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. Here's what you want"
> (handing me a can of Painters Touch)
> Me: "Well I'll take my chances on the protective enamel"
A buffoon trying to impress you with what little he knows. Paint is a
coating that includes different labeled material types such as enamels and
varnishes.
On Oct 11, 4:00=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
As always, nicely done, Robert.
Many moons ago, a renowned psychiatrist hired me to take over as
general contractor on a house he was building for his wife. In a rage
he had fired everybody from the site. She had designed the house
herself and it had some elements which were quite nice, but virtually
impossible to build. The budget was 285, by the time I was done, a
year-and-a-half later, the total was closer to 600. A 32' tall
fireplace in the Great Room was part of the problem.
The home owner spent a day ranting about the fact that he did NOT want
'emulsion' on any of his walls. "After all this work, I do NOT want
emulsion on the walls..."
WTF? Turns out he was talking about the fact that 'lager lauts' would
smear that on their walls back at the UK and he would have no part of
that culture!!
He was talking about latex.
-MIKE- wrote the following:
> On 10/9/10 12:43 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Oct 8, 9:09 pm, sbnjhfty<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I needed a can of black ...picked up a can of rustoleum.
>>>
>>> Employee: "That's not paint."
>>> Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? What is it?"
>>> Employee: "That's protective enamel"
>>> Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
>>> Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. Here's what you want"
>>
>> The classic 'enamel' isn't a paint, it doesn't dry and harden.
>> Rather, it oxidizes and hardens. That can take a week or more,
>> or you can bake it to get a faster resolution.
>>
>> Spray 'enamel' might be loosely labeled and could be non-classical
>> in this sense, though.
>
> It just sounds to me like a guy who just learned an interesting fact on
> the job and now wants everyone to know how smart he is. :-)
>
> Sure, tomatoes are fruits, but they are still kept in the vegetable isle.
Yeah, but you need a boat to get to them. :-)
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
On Oct 9, 9:19=A0am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> He's not so far off really. =A0Rustoleum is about the slowest drying stuf=
f out
> there, and black is about the worst color for that problem. =A0For just c=
olor
> work, any lacquer is probably a better choice. =A0For protection - though=
not
> as great as it's claimed to be, Rustoleum and similar products are a
> different solution. =A0Ya just have to be patient with the stuff.
Lay it on in thin coats, and tint the primer to match. Reds
cover a LOT better over rust red primer, not at all over white.
<[email protected]> wrote
>
> I would have rented uniforms for my guys, used an unknown brand of
> paint and tripled the price.
>
> Actually, that would have probably made that guy happy!
>
I had a friend of mine who worked for one of those "high end" painting
companies.
He worked out of his dining room. He owned nothing. Everything was rented or
leased. All his paint equipment was rented by the week.
He drove a very nice leased car. He wore suits. He had fancy signs made up
to put around the neighborhood when he was painting a house. He had tee
shirts with his logo that his painters wore. Nothing fancy, but it matched.
His strategy? He did not compete on price. He charged three times the going
rate. He did extensive prep work. Lots of sanding, etc. He took his time and
did a good job.
Every house he painted, he got a referral or two at least. He had more
business than he could handle. Everybody would get a number of bids. And
when he came in much higher than the others, They would ask why. He would
explain that he did much higher quality work, he used much better paint,
took his time and did a good job. Enough people saw this as an attractive
alternative to the el cheapo jobs offered elsewhere. He did quite well. He
worked about 6 months a year.
On Oct 9, 6:19=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Oct 9, 2:23=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > For what it's worth.
>
> > Paint is a pretty generic description for many coatings.
>
> > Paint:
> > =A0 1.. A liquid mixture, usually of a solid pigment in a liquid vehicl=
e, used
> > as a decorative or protective coating.
> > Enamel:
>
> > =A0 4. =A0 A paint that dries to a hard glossy finish.
>
> As always Leon, I appreciate your clarity of thought. =A0The classic
> alkyd enamels of yore were simple resin (resins of ALL types) finishes
> that were applied by mixing simple resin compounds with oil based
> carriers. =A0The same applies today.
>
> Enamels do not oxidize to cure. =A0In simple terms, they outgass the
> solvent carriers leaving the resins behind. =A0Outgassing triggers some
> interesting chemical reactions, but degradation of the finish to cure
> out isn't one of them.
>
> Enamels now cover a larger group than ever before, including some top
> notch latex paints, not just the classic oil/solvent mixtures.
>
> Sheeesh.
>
> Robert
Maybe it has something to do with my background, but enamel, to me,
was baked on. Either on metal or as a glaze on pottery. So all these
years, I have read the word 'enamel' as it relates to paints and my
brain has processed it as 'enamel-LIKE'...
Enamel has mostly been a cobalt-gorgeous blue colour in my life with
white or black specs in some instances. The shit would shatter a
lethal scab with razor sharp edges when treated badly. Some enamels
were grey-blue.
Bath tubs were sometimes enamelled.
No shit ever to come out of a can ever had the right to be called
'enamel' by my definition.
How do you know it is enamel? Bend a piece of metal with enamel on it
and it will squeek, scream and shatter... No paint will ever achieve
that hardness. Enamel, the word, as used by paint manufacturers, is
another example of the unvarnished lies that marketing departments
will ram down the throats of the unsuspecting consumers.
IOW... it ain't fucking enamel, it is paint.
On Oct 15, 9:48=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 15, 8:36=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 10/14/2010 5:03 PM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > > So, IMHO, as a finish to do yourself, seems too crazy. I mean, ovens =
and
> > > special spray gear..too silly.
>
> > > So now I look for people who do this for you. Woodweb, my goto site
> > > isn't much help yet.
>
> > Thanks for the effort though ... I wasn't very successful with finding
> > anything about the process myself.
>
> > I remember the finishes in the new houses in Germany back in the 70's.
> > The trim, moldings, doors, and cabinets had a (white) finish that you
> > could see yourself in, with a depth that spoke "quality". It looked
> > almost like plastic coating except not cheap looking in the least. It
> > was acheived, apparently, by literally dozens of coats of "paint",
> > expertly _brushed_ on, and sanded carefully between coats.
>
> > Gorgeous, and nothing you will find in this decadent society today.
>
> > There was one guy from a Balkan country here in Texas a few years ago
> > who advertised doing just that. He even contacted me about doing kitche=
n
> > cabinets in my houses at one point. He had a website and I even talked
> > to him a time or two on phone, but at the time everything we were doing
> > was stained, and I have not been able to get in touch with him since.
>
> > Would love to find him again.
>
> > --www.e-woodshop.net
> > Last update: 4/15/2010
> > KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
> I have, in the past, managed to get some very high gloss and durable
> finishes by using an automotive 'system'.
> Sikkens AutoCryl works very well when applied in reasonably normal
> conditions. The AkzoNobel people , Sikkens' owners, have excellent
> support technicians and documentation on their processes.
> All that is required, is a clean spray booth, and quality spray gun,
> strict adherence to their system and a seemingly disproportionate
> amount of money. More on that in a bit.
> The beauty of AutoCryl, is that one has a selection of additives which
> allows one to control certain aspects of the finish.
> A matting clear, which, when mixed in with the AutoCryl, gives
> infinite control over the sheen. Products that fight fish-eyes, and
> products that allow for more flexibility (used on deformable things
> like car bumpers) again, in a range of ratios.
> When used on MDF, they have a primer/filler which sands beautifully
> and then gets followed up with a primer, colour coat, and several
> clear coats...all in one continuous act. The wet-on-wet aspect gives
> an adhesion which is unsurpassed by anything I am aware of. Of course,
> no primers or colour coats on wood/veneers. The build is very high.
> First time I did this, I knew I was dealing with a long drying time
> and I decided to give it overnight. The next morning, I thought,
> "shit, this stuff is still soaking wet." It wasn't. It was dry, but
> looked wet. I was blown away.
> One panel, next to my gas range, still looks it did 15+ years ago.
> Clear on cherry veneer. (3 coats, sanded in between) I dare say the
> stuff is close to bullet proof. I added a bit of matting to get the
> 33% sheen in the final coat to match my standard cat lacquers.
>
> Back to the money side. You have to toss aside all you know about
> price per gallon. Mostly because the solids contents are so high,
> compared to standard cat lacquers, you get 3 times the product, give
> or take.
>
> Follow their procedure and wear a serious mask; this stuff can hurt
> you prior to curing.
>
> I'll take a couple of pics around my kitchen to see if I can show the
> finish.
the clear is called Autoclear, the coloured one-step is called
Autocryl.
Panel in kitchen. There for 17 years.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o290/Robatoy/stovepanel.jpg
On Oct 11, 1:00=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Oct 9, 6:01 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > As long as I'm getting the long version, please explain how latex paint
> > may or may not be an enamel. \
> IN GENERAL TERMS, enamels usually have harder resins in them that make
> them more abrasion resistant. =A0This makes them ideal for interior
> trims, etc. as they will resist scratching and will stand for a lot of
> cleaning.
>
> The harder resins also made the paint more shiny and (to my
> understanding) began enamel's association with glossy finish.
I think 'enamel' originally was jewelry items, fired colored glass
on copper and the like.
Porcelain enamel on steel has been common since Norman Bel Geddes
designed the first whiteware kitchen stove (1932).
To get an enamel-like paint, you need it to self-level, i.e. the
mixture has to pull its surface flat by surface tension. That means
the base has to be hard, because you can't toss lots of solid pigment
particles in; like gravel, they'd prevent the flattening. It also
means you
usually have long cure times or need to bake the product to keep
the base fluid.
Classic paint is a three-component mixture: a pigment (like burnt
umber)
and a base (gummy oil of some kind), and a thinner (turpentine).
It's hard because the pigment particles are hard, flexible because the
base
is stretchy, and goes on liquid because the thinner (which evaporates)
softened or dissolved the glue-like base.
Enamel, though, needs a hard base, usually an alkyd or epoxy. Those
don't dissolve, you dissolve the precursor compounds instead and apply
them, then they cure chemically. The pigment has to be either
loosely
packed or controlled-shape particles, if it is to support the self-
leveling,
and it's doubtful that enamel has as much pigment as paint does.
On Oct 12, 12:54=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10/12/2010 11:44 AM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > polyester clad doors
>
> I've seen windows and exterior doors with a baked on polyester finish,
> but never wooden kitchen doors.
>
> Got any more info ...
>
> Thanks, Rob!
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
Sorry... the feed from Google had a hiccup again, I'll get on it and
find more info for you.
sbnjhfty wrote:
> Two Home Depot experiences I have to share...
>
> * Paint *
> I needed a can of black spray paint for a project. I was looking
> through the cans for flat black. A nearby employee asked if I
> needed help and I replied no I just need a can of flat black
> paint as I picked up a can of rustoleum.
>
> Employee: "That's not paint."
> Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? What is it?"
> Employee: "That's protective enamel"
> Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
> Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. Here's what you want"
> (handing me a can of Painters Touch)
> Me: "Well I'll take my chances on the protective enamel"
>
He's not so far off really. Rustoleum is about the slowest drying stuff out
there, and black is about the worst color for that problem. For just color
work, any lacquer is probably a better choice. For protection - though not
as great as it's claimed to be, Rustoleum and similar products are a
different solution. Ya just have to be patient with the stuff.
>
> * Stain *
> I wanted some green stain and it had to be mixed. I wanted oil base
> but all they could mix was minwax water base. Oh well it was a small
> project. So I had the girl mix it. I brought some wood samples with
> me to test it. I asked he some questions as she mixed and after
> answering them she said:
>
> Employee: "Contrary to popular belief here I do know what I am
> doing."
> Me: "Could you put some stain on this sample so I can see what
> it looks like"
> Employee: "Sure" (takes the wood, paints it with stain then
> puts a hair dryer on it till it is dry)
> Me: "Uhhhh"
> Employee: "What?"
> Me: "Could you put some on this piece and after a bit wipe it off?"
> Employee: (weird look on her face) "I guess..." (honors my strange
> request)
Yeabut to be fair - it's common not to wipe stain off these days.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Oct 15, 8:36=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10/14/2010 5:03 PM, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > So, IMHO, as a finish to do yourself, seems too crazy. I mean, ovens an=
d
> > special spray gear..too silly.
>
> > So now I look for people who do this for you. Woodweb, my goto site
> > isn't much help yet.
>
> Thanks for the effort though ... I wasn't very successful with finding
> anything about the process myself.
>
> I remember the finishes in the new houses in Germany back in the 70's.
> The trim, moldings, doors, and cabinets had a (white) finish that you
> could see yourself in, with a depth that spoke "quality". It looked
> almost like plastic coating except not cheap looking in the least. It
> was acheived, apparently, by literally dozens of coats of "paint",
> expertly _brushed_ on, and sanded carefully between coats.
>
> Gorgeous, and nothing you will find in this decadent society today.
>
> There was one guy from a Balkan country here in Texas a few years ago
> who advertised doing just that. He even contacted me about doing kitchen
> cabinets in my houses at one point. He had a website and I even talked
> to him a time or two on phone, but at the time everything we were doing
> was stained, and I have not been able to get in touch with him since.
>
> Would love to find him again.
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
I have, in the past, managed to get some very high gloss and durable
finishes by using an automotive 'system'.
Sikkens AutoCryl works very well when applied in reasonably normal
conditions. The AkzoNobel people , Sikkens' owners, have excellent
support technicians and documentation on their processes.
All that is required, is a clean spray booth, and quality spray gun,
strict adherence to their system and a seemingly disproportionate
amount of money. More on that in a bit.
The beauty of AutoCryl, is that one has a selection of additives which
allows one to control certain aspects of the finish.
A matting clear, which, when mixed in with the AutoCryl, gives
infinite control over the sheen. Products that fight fish-eyes, and
products that allow for more flexibility (used on deformable things
like car bumpers) again, in a range of ratios.
When used on MDF, they have a primer/filler which sands beautifully
and then gets followed up with a primer, colour coat, and several
clear coats...all in one continuous act. The wet-on-wet aspect gives
an adhesion which is unsurpassed by anything I am aware of. Of course,
no primers or colour coats on wood/veneers. The build is very high.
First time I did this, I knew I was dealing with a long drying time
and I decided to give it overnight. The next morning, I thought,
"shit, this stuff is still soaking wet." It wasn't. It was dry, but
looked wet. I was blown away.
One panel, next to my gas range, still looks it did 15+ years ago.
Clear on cherry veneer. (3 coats, sanded in between) I dare say the
stuff is close to bullet proof. I added a bit of matting to get the
33% sheen in the final coat to match my standard cat lacquers.
Back to the money side. You have to toss aside all you know about
price per gallon. Mostly because the solids contents are so high,
compared to standard cat lacquers, you get 3 times the product, give
or take.
Follow their procedure and wear a serious mask; this stuff can hurt
you prior to curing.
I'll take a couple of pics around my kitchen to see if I can show the
finish.
On Oct 12, 6:31=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> As always, nicely done, Robert.
Thanks, Rob.
> The home owner spent a day ranting about the fact that he did NOT want
> 'emulsion' on any of his walls. "After all this work, I do NOT want
> emulsion on the walls..."
> WTF? Turns out he was talking about the fact that 'lager lauts' would
> smear that on their walls back at the UK and he would have no part of
> that culture!!
> He was talking about latex.
And they wonder why so many think of the Brits as snobs. "Lager
lauts"?
For crying out loud.... emulsion?
Sheesh.
I would have rented uniforms for my guys, used an unknown brand of
paint and tripled the price.
Actually, that would have probably made that guy happy!
Robert
On Oct 10, 8:58=A0am, willshak <[email protected]> wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote the following:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 10/9/10 12:43 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> >> On Oct 8, 9:09 pm, sbnjhfty<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
>
> >>> I needed a can of black ...picked up a can of rustoleum.
>
> >>> Employee: "That's not paint."
> >>> Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? =A0What is it?"
> >>> Employee: "That's protective enamel"
> >>> Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
> >>> Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. =A0Here's what you wa=
nt"
>
> >> The classic 'enamel' isn't a paint, it doesn't dry and harden.
> >> Rather, it oxidizes and hardens. =A0That can take a week or more,
> >> or you can bake it to get a faster resolution.
>
> >> Spray 'enamel' might be loosely labeled and could be non-classical
> >> in this sense, though.
>
> > It just sounds to me like a guy who just learned an interesting fact on
> > the job and now wants everyone to know how smart he is. =A0 :-)
>
> > Sure, tomatoes are fruits, but they are still kept in the vegetable isl=
e.
>
> Yeah, but you need a boat to get to them. :-)
>
...don't DO that!!! (coffee, keyboard, etc...)
On Oct 9, 2:23=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> For what it's worth.
>
> Paint is a pretty generic description for many coatings.
>
> Paint:
> =A0 1.. A liquid mixture, usually of a solid pigment in a liquid vehicle,=
used
> as a decorative or protective coating.
> Enamel:
>
> =A0 4. =A0 A paint that dries to a hard glossy finish.
As always Leon, I appreciate your clarity of thought. The classic
alkyd enamels of yore were simple resin (resins of ALL types) finishes
that were applied by mixing simple resin compounds with oil based
carriers. The same applies today.
Enamels do not oxidize to cure. In simple terms, they outgass the
solvent carriers leaving the resins behind. Outgassing triggers some
interesting chemical reactions, but degradation of the finish to cure
out isn't one of them.
Enamels now cover a larger group than ever before, including some top
notch latex paints, not just the classic oil/solvent mixtures.
Sheeesh.
Robert
On Oct 9, 6:01 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> As long as I'm getting the long version, please explain how latex paint
> may or may not be an enamel. Before reading all of this I never even
> pondered whether latex paint had any latex in it! I guess the
> difference goes back to how the substance outgasses, but I always just
> thought of enamels as "thick". In any event, thanks (all) for the
> lesson in paint!
Viscosity has nothing to do with the label on the paint. Oils can be
less viscous than latex paints, but in practical use be a much better
finished product when cured out.
IN GENERAL TERMS, enamels usually have harder resins in them that make
them more abrasion resistant. This makes them ideal for interior
trims, etc. as they will resist scratching and will stand for a lot of
cleaning.
The harder resins also made the paint more shiny and (to my
understanding) began enamel's association with glossy finish.
I have also understood (although don't find substantiation) that
"enamel" was tossed about for paint (coatings) to be associated with
"porcelain enamel" which is in the reference that Rob uses it. Enamel
was used on bakeware, bath tubs, sinks, tin ware, etc., as a very hard
and almost indestructible finish. Porcelain is a TYPE of enamel that
is fused by fire or heat.
You should note that the enamel family is quite large. You have
enamel on your teeth, too.
Back on paint/coatings.
With the advanced chemistry and solvents that make up today's
coatings, enamels can be just about anything in the paint world. For
decades, me and mine have associated enamels with hard, glossy (gloss
down to satin) finishes knowing that less gloss (less resins) means
less practical wear.
Yet, as here
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2fw22h3
you can see enamel "flat" paint. All the leading manufacturers have
them now. No matter what they say though, they do have a bit more
sheen than a true flat.
These flat enamels are great for walls in high use areas that need to
be cleaned. I have found them easy to apply and very abrasion
resistant. It really blurs the line between the finishes of
"eggshell" latex, and flat enamel latex for me.
As far as "latex" being in latex paint, the first paragraph from an
eminently credible source says it all:
http://www.paint.org/issues/latex.cfm
Robert
On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 09:19:18 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>He's not so far off really. Rustoleum is about the slowest drying stuff out
>there, and black is about the worst color for that problem. For just color
>work, any lacquer is probably a better choice. For protection - though not
>as great as it's claimed to be, Rustoleum and similar products are a
>different solution. Ya just have to be patient with the stuff.
That ok, the Home Depot in Evanston Illinois was built on the
Rustoleum Site. After the building was completed they blocked off
areas in the store to drive pilings about 100 feet deep. Seems the
landfill area ( toxic disposal ) made the ground a wee bit unstable.
A Steak and Shake was built upon the same property after it was all
complete and just about to open, all four walls collapsed.
Mark
On Oct 9, 1:43=A0pm, whit3rd <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 8, 9:09=A0pm, sbnjhfty <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I needed a can of black ...picked up a can of rustoleum.
>
> > Employee: "That's not paint."
> > Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? =A0What is it?"
> > Employee: "That's protective enamel"
> > Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
> > Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. =A0Here's what you want=
"
>
> The classic 'enamel' isn't a paint, it doesn't dry and harden.
> Rather, it oxidizes and hardens. =A0That can take a week or more,
> or you can bake it to get a faster resolution.
>
> Spray 'enamel' might be loosely labeled and could be non-classical
> in this sense, though.
Pigmented oil-based varnish.
On Oct 12, 11:19=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robert ... I've got a kitchen (white, Euro style, high gloss) coming up
> that needs a world class paint job. You wanna drive to Houston for a
> week and let me and Leon wine and dine you as part of the job?
>
> ... I'm serious, anytime you want to discuss/consider. :)
That would probably be a lot of fun. I would have to see where I was
"work wise" at the time.
Over the last year I have cut a deal with a friend of mine to help him
run his company as well. As he has gotten older (mid 70s) he has
slowed down a bit and I am taking on more and more.
But it could be fun...!
I would PING Rob though about those cabinet doors. I saw some at a
home show, and they looked great if you like that style.
Apparently they are clad in thermofoil (PVC) like the old days, but a
better quality. I never like the old Euro style myself, but it is an
enduring design and that is why it was at the home show. The doors I
saw actually looked pretty nice since they had a bit of woodgrain in
the vinyl.
As far as their manufacture, a bit of snooping found this:
http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/high-gloss-door.html
A Google search of "glossy pvc cabinet doors" revealed a lot of
manufacturers from China. I don't know where they cabinets came from
at the home show, but I now have a sneaking suspicion of their origin.
Let me know how your project is going.
Would I have to work with Leon?
;^) !!
Robert
On Oct 12, 12:11=A0pm, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast
dot net> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I would have rented uniforms for my guys, used an unknown brand of
> > paint and tripled the price.
>
> > Actually, that would have probably made that guy happy!
>
> I had a friend of mine who worked for one of those "high end" painting
> companies.
>
> He worked out of his dining room. He owned nothing. Everything was rented=
or
> leased. All his paint equipment was rented by the week.
>
> He drove a very nice leased car. He wore suits. He had fancy signs made u=
p
> to put around the neighborhood when he was painting a house. He had tee
> shirts with his logo that his painters wore. Nothing fancy, but it matche=
d.
>
> His strategy? =A0He did not compete on price. He charged three times the =
going
> rate. He did extensive prep work. Lots of sanding, etc. He took his time =
and
> did a good job.
>
> Every house he painted, he got a referral or two at least. He had more
> business than he could handle. Everybody would get a number of bids. And
> when he came in much higher than the others, They would ask why. He would
> explain that he did much higher quality work, he used much better paint,
> took his time and did a good job. Enough people saw this as an attractive
> alternative to the el cheapo jobs offered elsewhere. He did quite well. H=
e
> worked about 6 months a year.
I know a guy just like that in Rochester NY. 7 Series BMW, Armani,
Rolex. Only worked on older stately homes and specialized in
refinishing grand staircases. Totally OCD. Three times the money but
awesome. He offered to show me how if I worked for cheap for a couple
of months. That was well worth it. Old style Irish Italian work
ethic.Good times.
In article <4e8647ae-3f5a-4cc5-aaaf-fd6466365c31
@y31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
> How do you know it is enamel? Bend a piece of metal with enamel on it
> and it will squeek, scream and shatter... No paint will ever achieve
> that hardness. Enamel, the word, as used by paint manufacturers, is
> another example of the unvarnished lies that marketing departments
> will ram down the throats of the unsuspecting consumers.
>
> IOW... it ain't fucking enamel, it is paint.
In my family there was a distinction made between enamel and enamel
paint.
We were always sent to the hardware store to buy "enamel paint".
Enamel when it's not tooth enamel is porcelain or vitreous enamel.
Society gets lazy.
On 10/14/2010 5:03 PM, Robatoy wrote:
> So, IMHO, as a finish to do yourself, seems too crazy. I mean, ovens and
> special spray gear..too silly.
>
> So now I look for people who do this for you. Woodweb, my goto site
> isn't much help yet.
Thanks for the effort though ... I wasn't very successful with finding
anything about the process myself.
I remember the finishes in the new houses in Germany back in the 70's.
The trim, moldings, doors, and cabinets had a (white) finish that you
could see yourself in, with a depth that spoke "quality". It looked
almost like plastic coating except not cheap looking in the least. It
was acheived, apparently, by literally dozens of coats of "paint",
expertly _brushed_ on, and sanded carefully between coats.
Gorgeous, and nothing you will find in this decadent society today.
There was one guy from a Balkan country here in Texas a few years ago
who advertised doing just that. He even contacted me about doing kitchen
cabinets in my houses at one point. He had a website and I even talked
to him a time or two on phone, but at the time everything we were doing
was stained, and I have not been able to get in touch with him since.
Would love to find him again.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Oct 9, 8:19=A0am, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yeabut to be fair - it's common not to wipe stain off these days.
Yeah... what is going on with that crap? Watered down paint is not
stain. Thinned down solvent based materials are not stain. Low solid
breathable materials (latex) do not provide anymore protection than
Thompson Waste of Time coatings.
Oil based low solids finishes that dry opaque or solid are nothing
but really lousy paint.
I have never figured out where that non wiping stain market came from,
but on the other hand it has made me a lot of money for the repairs it
generates due to its very poor protection quotient.
Robert
On Oct 8, 9:09=A0pm, sbnjhfty <[email protected]> wrote:
> I needed a can of black ...picked up a can of rustoleum.
>
> Employee: "That's not paint."
> Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? =A0What is it?"
> Employee: "That's protective enamel"
> Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
> Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. =A0Here's what you want"
The classic 'enamel' isn't a paint, it doesn't dry and harden.
Rather, it oxidizes and hardens. That can take a week or more,
or you can bake it to get a faster resolution.
Spray 'enamel' might be loosely labeled and could be non-classical
in this sense, though.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Oct 9, 6:01 pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
Snippage of very good information
>
> As far as "latex" being in latex paint, the first paragraph from an
> eminently credible source says it all:
>
> http://www.paint.org/issues/latex.cfm
Well after reading that and thinking about that for a few moments it seems
easy to see why paint manufacturers chose "latex paint" over "rubber paint",
it simply sounds more expensive. ;~)
Thinking back to the early 70's I recall Glidden latex paint being quite
thick. A friend that managed a Glidden store opened a gallon of "cheese"
colored paint and scooped out a hunk of the paint with a putty knife, yes it
was that thick. He cut that scoop up in to bite sized slices on a paper
plate and put some crackers around the "cheese", and then stood guard to
make sure no one took any samples. The occasion was an open house thing to
demonstrate the paint that would not drip.
On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 10:43:42 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Oct 8, 9:09 pm, sbnjhfty <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I needed a can of black ...picked up a can of rustoleum.
>>
>> Employee: "That's not paint."
>> Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? What is it?"
>> Employee: "That's protective enamel"
>> Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
>> Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. Here's what you want"
>
>The classic 'enamel' isn't a paint, it doesn't dry and harden.
>Rather, it oxidizes and hardens. That can take a week or more,
>or you can bake it to get a faster resolution.
>
>Spray 'enamel' might be loosely labeled and could be non-classical
>in this sense, though.
Rattle can label: Contains some enamel.
Chicken patty label: CAUTION: May contain chicken.
--
Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come
alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs
is people who have come alive. -- Howard Thurman
On Oct 12, 12:19=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10/12/2010 11:11 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >> I would have rented uniforms for my guys, used an unknown brand of
> >> paint and tripled the price.
>
> >> Actually, that would have probably made that guy happy!
>
> > I had a friend of mine who worked for one of those "high end" painting
> > companies.
>
> > He worked out of his dining room. He owned nothing. Everything was
> > rented or leased. All his paint equipment was rented by the week.
>
> > He drove a very nice leased car. He wore suits. He had fancy signs made
> > up to put around the neighborhood when he was painting a house. He had
> > tee shirts with his logo that his painters wore. Nothing fancy, but it
> > matched.
>
> > His strategy? He did not compete on price. He charged three times the
> > going rate. He did extensive prep work. Lots of sanding, etc. He took
> > his time and did a good job.
>
> > Every house he painted, he got a referral or two at least. He had more
> > business than he could handle. Everybody would get a number of bids. An=
d
> > when he came in much higher than the others, They would ask why. He
> > would explain that he did much higher quality work, he used much better
> > paint, took his time and did a good job. Enough people saw this as an
> > attractive alternative to the el cheapo jobs offered elsewhere. He did
> > quite well. He worked about 6 months a year.
>
> By the time a designer is bought and paid for, and all the other work is
> done, I will willingly pay three times the lowest bidder for three times
> the quality.
>
> The paint job is what makes the job!
>
> Robert ... I've got a kitchen (white, Euro style, high gloss) coming up
> that needs a world class paint job. You wanna drive to Houston for a
> week and let me and Leon wine and dine you as part of the job?
>
> ... I'm serious, anytime you want to discuss/consider. :)
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
Not to cut in on Robert's opportunity to be wined and dined, but you
may want to look at polyester clad doors. Super shiny and durable. The
glossiest of gloss albeit a bit dear.
I was there, yesterday, looking for a 12' long hardwood transition piece
to take the trip hazard out of my friend's 3/4" high seem between the
kitchen tile and hardwood living room. All they had were 4' sections.
I know I had seen some really long transitions there at one time, so I
asked him if they had any thing up around 12 feet.
He said, "No, but all you have to do is use 3 of them."
I replied, "Yes, I could, but I hate seems."
He said, "Oh, you can just put some wood putty in them and they'll be good."
I said, "Yes, for about 2 months until they expand and contract and the
wood putty crumbles out."
To which he proudly retorted, "That's the way our installers do it, all
the time."
I chuckled a little and said, "Sir, you just made my point."
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/9/10 8:08 AM, HeyBub wrote:
>> He said, "No, but all you have to do is use 3 of them."
>> I replied, "Yes, I could, but I hate seems."
>> He said, "Oh, you can just put some wood putty in them and they'll be
>> good." I said, "Yes, for about 2 months until they expand and
>> contract and the wood putty crumbles out."
>> To which he proudly retorted, "That's the way our installers do it,
>> all the time."
>> I chuckled a little and said, "Sir, you just made my point."
>
> Did you ever find your transition?
>
> I had the same problem until I found a millworks shop.
>
> Since then, I got a router table and make my own.
>
That was my choice, sir. I told him I would make one in my
shop, but time was the greatest issue.
It's an inexpensive condo they're looking to sell yesterday.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/9/10 12:43 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Oct 8, 9:09 pm, sbnjhfty<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I needed a can of black ...picked up a can of rustoleum.
>>
>> Employee: "That's not paint."
>> Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? What is it?"
>> Employee: "That's protective enamel"
>> Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
>> Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. Here's what you want"
>
> The classic 'enamel' isn't a paint, it doesn't dry and harden.
> Rather, it oxidizes and hardens. That can take a week or more,
> or you can bake it to get a faster resolution.
>
> Spray 'enamel' might be loosely labeled and could be non-classical
> in this sense, though.
It just sounds to me like a guy who just learned an interesting fact on
the job and now wants everyone to know how smart he is. :-)
Sure, tomatoes are fruits, but they are still kept in the vegetable isle.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
[email protected] wrote:
> Enamels now cover a larger group than ever before, including some top
> notch latex paints, not just the classic oil/solvent mixtures.
As long as I'm getting the long version, please explain how latex paint
may or may not be an enamel. Before reading all of this I never even
pondered whether latex paint had any latex in it! I guess the
difference goes back to how the substance outgasses, but I always just
thought of enamels as "thick". In any event, thanks (all) for the
lesson in paint!
Bill
On 10/10/10 7:58 AM, willshak wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote the following:
>> It just sounds to me like a guy who just learned an interesting fact on
>> the job and now wants everyone to know how smart he is. :-)
>>
>> Sure, tomatoes are fruits, but they are still kept in the vegetable isle.
>
> Yeah, but you need a boat to get to them. :-)
>
Nice!! LMAO!
That looked funny to me when I typed it... now I know why.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
[email protected] wrote:
> Robert
>
Thank you for your reply to my question.
Bill
"whit3rd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ba4e4cbe-2bf6-4e66-8d09-a17c86d715ea@l14g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 8, 9:09 pm, sbnjhfty <[email protected]> wrote:
> I needed a can of black ...picked up a can of rustoleum.
>
> Employee: "That's not paint."
> Me: (looking at the can) "It isn't? What is it?"
> Employee: "That's protective enamel"
> Me: "Yeah but why isn't that paint?"
> Employee: "Well it has enamels and stuff in it. Here's what you want"
The classic 'enamel' isn't a paint, it doesn't dry and harden.
Rather, it oxidizes and hardens. That can take a week or more,
or you can bake it to get a faster resolution.
Spray 'enamel' might be loosely labeled and could be non-classical
in this sense, though.
For what it's worth.
Paint is a pretty generic description for many coatings.
Paint:
1.. A liquid mixture, usually of a solid pigment in a liquid vehicle, used
as a decorative or protective coating.
Enamel:
4. A paint that dries to a hard glossy finish.
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10/9/10 12:43 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Oct 8, 9:09 pm, sbnjhfty<[email protected]> wrote:
> It just sounds to me like a guy who just learned an interesting fact on
> the job and now wants everyone to know how smart he is. :-)
Well he learned something interesting but misapplied what he learned.
Paint is no particular type of material used to cover an object.
Enamel is a paint by definition.
e·nam·el (i-nam'?l)
n.
1.. A vitreous, usually opaque, protective or decorative coating baked on
metal, glass, or ceramic ware.
2.. An object having such a coating, as in a piece of cloisonné.
3.. A coating that dries to a hard glossy finish: nail enamel.
4.. A paint that dries to a hard glossy finish.
5.. Anatomy. The hard, calcareous substance covering the exposed portion
of a tooth
> Sure, tomatoes are fruits, but they are still kept in the vegetable isle.
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On 10/12/2010 11:11 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> I would have rented uniforms for my guys, used an unknown brand of
>> paint and tripled the price.
>>
>> Actually, that would have probably made that guy happy!
>>
> I had a friend of mine who worked for one of those "high end" painting
> companies.
>
> He worked out of his dining room. He owned nothing. Everything was
> rented or leased. All his paint equipment was rented by the week.
>
> He drove a very nice leased car. He wore suits. He had fancy signs made
> up to put around the neighborhood when he was painting a house. He had
> tee shirts with his logo that his painters wore. Nothing fancy, but it
> matched.
>
> His strategy? He did not compete on price. He charged three times the
> going rate. He did extensive prep work. Lots of sanding, etc. He took
> his time and did a good job.
>
> Every house he painted, he got a referral or two at least. He had more
> business than he could handle. Everybody would get a number of bids. And
> when he came in much higher than the others, They would ask why. He
> would explain that he did much higher quality work, he used much better
> paint, took his time and did a good job. Enough people saw this as an
> attractive alternative to the el cheapo jobs offered elsewhere. He did
> quite well. He worked about 6 months a year.
By the time a designer is bought and paid for, and all the other work is
done, I will willingly pay three times the lowest bidder for three times
the quality.
The paint job is what makes the job!
Robert ... I've got a kitchen (white, Euro style, high gloss) coming up
that needs a world class paint job. You wanna drive to Houston for a
week and let me and Leon wine and dine you as part of the job?
... I'm serious, anytime you want to discuss/consider. :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
-MIKE- wrote:
> I was there, yesterday, looking for a 12' long hardwood transition
> piece to take the trip hazard out of my friend's 3/4" high seem between
> the
> kitchen tile and hardwood living room. All they had were 4' sections.
> I know I had seen some really long transitions there at one time, so I
> asked him if they had any thing up around 12 feet.
>
> He said, "No, but all you have to do is use 3 of them."
> I replied, "Yes, I could, but I hate seems."
> He said, "Oh, you can just put some wood putty in them and they'll be
> good." I said, "Yes, for about 2 months until they expand and
> contract and the wood putty crumbles out."
> To which he proudly retorted, "That's the way our installers do it,
> all the time."
> I chuckled a little and said, "Sir, you just made my point."
Did you ever find your transition?
I had the same problem until I found a millworks shop.
Since then, I got a router table and make my own.
In article
<[email protected]>,
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 12, 12:54 pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 10/12/2010 11:44 AM, Robatoy wrote:
> >
> > > polyester clad doors
> >
> > I've seen windows and exterior doors with a baked on polyester finish,
> > but never wooden kitchen doors.
> >
> > Got any more info ...
> >
> > Thanks, Rob!
> >
> > --www.e-woodshop.net
> > Last update: 4/15/2010
> > KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
> Sorry... the feed from Google had a hiccup again, I'll get on it and
> find more info for you.
So far, polyester goes through about 20 steps. The people at NEFF
kitchens go through 29.
"The technique might involve more than 20 steps of sanding and
finishing. There¹s even a step where a special topcoat is applied in a
dust-free (!) room. The finish goes through numerous oven curings and
hand sandings with extremely fine abrasives. Special glazes and polishes
applied at the end help achieve the final, mirror-like sheen.
Perhaps not surprisingly, all that elbow grease makes this one of the
more expensive finish choices."
So, IMHO, as a finish to do yourself, seems too crazy. I mean, ovens and
special spray gear..too silly.
So now I look for people who do this for you. Woodweb, my goto site
isn't much help yet.