A disease.? Granted I beat up on that old Stanley chisel building fences, a
deck and a shed and there was a neglected rust spot on it for awhile. But I
cleaned it up along time ago. Now the metal at that spot has sort of eroded
away a little and there's a black spot there. Doesn't look like rust.. I
sanded on it today with some wet and dry sand paper some came off. What's
with the black. Is this black rust?
In article <IlpOg.5160$TA5.4437@fed1read09>, "Jim Hall" <[email protected]> wrote:
>A disease.? Granted I beat up on that old Stanley chisel building fences, a
>deck and a shed and there was a neglected rust spot on it for awhile. But I
>cleaned it up along time ago. Now the metal at that spot has sort of eroded
>away a little and there's a black spot there. Doesn't look like rust.. I
>sanded on it today with some wet and dry sand paper some came off. What's
>with the black. Is this black rust?
It's iron oxide.
Contrary to popular belief, rust and iron oxide are in fact not the same
thing. Rust is *hydrated* iron oxide (iron oxide plus water). When iron or
steel gets wet and begins to rust, it's actually a two-step process: the water
accelerates the formation of iron oxide -- which is black -- and then combines
with the top layer it to form rust. When you remove the rust, there's still
going to be a spot of black iron oxide beneath it.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <IlpOg.5160$TA5.4437@fed1read09>, "Jim Hall" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >A disease.? Granted I beat up on that old Stanley chisel building fences, a
> >deck and a shed and there was a neglected rust spot on it for awhile. But I
> >cleaned it up along time ago. Now the metal at that spot has sort of eroded
> >away a little and there's a black spot there. Doesn't look like rust.. I
> >sanded on it today with some wet and dry sand paper some came off. What's
> >with the black. Is this black rust?
>
> It's iron oxide.
>
> Contrary to popular belief, rust and iron oxide are in fact not the same
> thing. Rust is *hydrated* iron oxide (iron oxide plus water). When iron or
> steel gets wet and begins to rust, it's actually a two-step process: the water
> accelerates the formation of iron oxide -- which is black -- and then combines
> with the top layer it to form rust. When you remove the rust, there's still
> going to be a spot of black iron oxide beneath it.
Which eventually flakes off (disintegrates? evaporates?) and leaves
the dreaded pitting. Little pits on the back of a chisel can be a
royal pain to lap out.
I hope the chisel was one of the newer old Stanley chisels, because the
older old Stanley chisels were beautiful tools and worth a fair amount.
R
Jim Hall wrote:
> Is this black rust?
Yes. Rust comes in orange and black (with lots of browns in-between)
depending on the oxidation state of the iron (which sets the ratio
between number of iron and oxygen atoms in a rust molecule) and also
the hydration state. Heat it, electrolyse it, and you cna convert the
reddish sorts to the blackish sorts.
If you go to Clearwell Caves, you can even buy pretty purple "ochre",
which is really just purple rust (and not cheap either). It has been
mined there as a pigment, since Roman times.
As to your chisel, then just ignore minor pits. Keep them clean, dry,
and oiled with a non-staining oil. Ideally keep them polished too, but
I certainly wouldn't lap good steel off the back of a decent old
chisel, just to shift a trivial pit or two.
[email protected] wrote:
> Jim Hall wrote:
>
> > Is this black rust?
>
> As to your chisel, then just ignore minor pits. Keep them clean, dry,
> and oiled with a non-staining oil. Ideally keep them polished too, but
> I certainly wouldn't lap good steel off the back of a decent old
> chisel, just to shift a trivial pit or two.
If the pits are back from the edge, I agree with you, if they're at the
edge, I don't.
What oil do you use on your chisels?
R
"Jim Hall"
> Years ago I put 3 in 1 oil on them and then maybe not use the tool again
> until next summer. Since I was chiseling construction wood. Oil didn't
> really matter. Today, I haven't been putting anything on them. Have a
> recommendation? I read about putting Topcoat or wax on planes, probably
> should do the same with chisels I suppose. Is there anything you can do
> to
> prevent further deterioration of black spots or are you doomed and its
> just
> going to be the pits..
>
Once you have a rust spot, it will never re-fill. It will only get larger
unless you prevent further rusting - exposure to moisture.
Here in SoCal, its not a huge problem but when I want to protect a tool that
sees little use, I will spray it with a mixture of motor oil and kerosene (5
parts oil - 1 part kerosene). Then wipe the excess off and put it away.
This may not help in high humidity areas but it works like a champ here.
BTW, garden tools get shoved into a bucket of sand mixed with oil before
storage in the shed.
Dave
RicodJour wrote:
> > I certainly wouldn't lap good steel off the back of a decent old
> > chisel, just to shift a trivial pit or two.
>
> If the pits are back from the edge, I agree with you, if they're at the
> edge, I don't.
Yes, I'd agree with that.
My usual bench chisels are Japanese though, so this problem doesn't
arise. I could either lap a pit out of the back in a minute or two, or
leave it alone if it's in the hollow.
> What oil do you use on your chisels?
For chisels I use Japanese "camellia" oil, which is actually fish oil
with a scent added. Buy it from any quality toolstore, it's common
these days. It's persistent, non-oxidising (measurably), non-gummy and
lets you go straight into carving lime (basswood) without leaving
marks. I also keep a bamboo/cotton waste oil pot full of the stuff on
my bench.
For swords I use camellia oil, made from camellias. I get this from a
Chinese herbalist, sold as a hair product.
In article <[email protected]>, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Before the advent of modern chemical bluing, gun barrels were colored by a
>controlled rusting process leaving the barrel black.
"Controlled rusting"? Or controlled oxidation?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
The process was known as cold rusting. Rust (red) would actually be formed
and would be polished off leaving the black oxide. To get a uniform surface,
the rusting and polishing have to be repeated a number of times. The metal
needs to be polished when the rust layer is light. If left to rust to long,
pitting would occur. When I was a kid, I used to do this with knife blades.
It took some time to get a uniform finish but, once you did, it was quite
resistant to further rusting. I thought that I had come up with quite the
process. Later I learned how old the process actually was. Reinventing the
wheel, as it were.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "CW"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >Before the advent of modern chemical bluing, gun barrels were colored by
a
> >controlled rusting process leaving the barrel black.
>
> "Controlled rusting"? Or controlled oxidation?
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <IlpOg.5160$TA5.4437@fed1read09>, "Jim Hall" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >A disease.? Granted I beat up on that old Stanley chisel building fences, a
> >deck and a shed and there was a neglected rust spot on it for awhile. But I
> >cleaned it up along time ago. Now the metal at that spot has sort of eroded
> >away a little and there's a black spot there. Doesn't look like rust.. I
> >sanded on it today with some wet and dry sand paper some came off. What's
> >with the black. Is this black rust?
>
> It's iron oxide.
>
> Contrary to popular belief, rust and iron oxide are in fact not the same
> thing. Rust is *hydrated* iron oxide (iron oxide plus water). When iron or
> steel gets wet and begins to rust, it's actually a two-step process: the water
> accelerates the formation of iron oxide -- which is black -- and then combines
> with the top layer it to form rust. When you remove the rust, there's still
> going to be a spot of black iron oxide beneath it.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Accually there are 2 forms of iron oxide one of which appears black and inhibits
further oxidation and one that is orange and promotes further oxidation. Water is
not necessary.
ron
Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, r payne <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Accually there are 2 forms of iron oxide one of which appears black and
> > inhibits further oxidation and one that is orange and promotes further oxidation. Water
> > is not necessary.
>
> Ummm... actually there are *four* forms of iron oxide.
>
> From the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics:
> FeO -- black crystals
> Fe2O3 -- red-brown to black crystals
> Fe3O4 -- black crystals or red-black powder
> Fe2O3*xH2O -- red-brown amorphous powder -- that's rust.
>
> Water *is* necessary for rust.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
So you're saying if i put a piece of metal in a closed container that was evacuated then
filled with a high concentration of oxygen it would not rust?
Water can act as a catalyst for rust but so can many other chemicals. Above you seem to
define rust as hydrated iron oxide. Generally when someone speaks of rust he is refering to
any iron oxide.
[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Contrary to popular belief, rust and iron oxide are in fact not the
> same thing. Rust is *hydrated* iron oxide (iron oxide plus water).
> When iron or steel gets wet and begins to rust, it's actually a
> two-step process: the water accelerates the formation of iron oxide --
> which is black -- and then combines with the top layer it to form
> rust. When you remove the rust, there's still going to be a spot of
> black iron oxide beneath it.
>
So does that rust converter stuff remove the hydrated iron oxide leaving
only the non-hydrated stuff?
Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
Thanks, Doug. That was helpful..
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <AFMOg.5764$TA5.1476@fed1read09>, "Jim Hall" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >So the black stuff is just another form of oxide, like rust (red stuff)
from
> >metal getting wet and you treat it similarly..?
>
> There's one big difference: the black iron oxide is crystalline and hard.
It
> doesn't flake off under light pressure the way rust does, and if it
remains
> dry, does not contribute materially to deterioration of the metal.
>
> > Scotch brite if off and put
> >a sealer, topcoat, camelia oil or other protection on afterwards. Even
> >though it may show up in the same spot weeks or months later, you can
slow
> >the deterioration by cleaning off the black and protecting the metal.
Does
> >that sound right.?
>
> Ever take a look at really old tools? They're nearly black -- but still
solid.
> IMO black iron oxide is more a cosmetic defect than anything else, and
doesn't
> really need to be removed -- as long as you keep it dry. Moisture is the
enemy
> of iron, even water vapor. So.... polish it off if you like, or leave it
> alone, but definitely put some sort of sealer over it.
>
> >Black rust, man, I never realized oxidation was anything
> >other than red stuff.. Thanks for info..
>
> Not quite right. If it's black, it isn't rust. Oxidation turns iron black
or
> dark reddish-brown, and is not in and of itself harmful if kept dry.
Oxidation
> plus water makes rust.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
In article <[email protected]>, r payne <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, r payne
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Accually there are 2 forms of iron oxide one of which appears black and
>> > inhibits further oxidation and one that is orange and promotes further
> oxidation. Water
>> > is not necessary.
>>
>> Ummm... actually there are *four* forms of iron oxide.
>>
>> From the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics:
>> FeO -- black crystals
>> Fe2O3 -- red-brown to black crystals
>> Fe3O4 -- black crystals or red-black powder
>> Fe2O3*xH2O -- red-brown amorphous powder -- that's rust.
>>
>> Water *is* necessary for rust.
>
>So you're saying if i put a piece of metal in a closed container that was
> evacuated then
>filled with a high concentration of oxygen it would not rust?
That is correct. It would oxidize, but it would not rust.
>
>Water can act as a catalyst for rust but so can many other chemicals. Above
> you seem to
>define rust as hydrated iron oxide. Generally when someone speaks of rust he
> is refering to
>any iron oxide.
I doubt that very much. Generally, when people speak of rust, in my
experience, they're talking about the red stuff that forms on iron or steel
that has gotten wet, never about the black oxidation that forms on iron or
steel that has been exposed to air but kept dry.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> CW wrote:
>
> > The process was known as cold rusting.
>
> Generally known as "browning" in the UK. Still fairly common amongst
> gunsmiths, especially as legal UK shooters are now generally firing
> antique black powder kit.
Very common here at one time also. My grandfather's old Damascus barreled
shotguns that I grew up duck hunting with were not "blued", but "browned".
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 8/29/06
So the black stuff is just another form of oxide, like rust (red stuff) from
metal getting wet and you treat it similarly..? Scotch brite if off and put
a sealer, topcoat, camelia oil or other protection on afterwards. Even
though it may show up in the same spot weeks or months later, you can slow
the deterioration by cleaning off the black and protecting the metal. Does
that sound right.? Black rust, man, I never realized oxidation was anything
other than red stuff.. Thanks for info..
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, r payne
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Doug Miller wrote:
> >
> >> In article <[email protected]>, r payne
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Accually there are 2 forms of iron oxide one of which appears black
and
> >> > inhibits further oxidation and one that is orange and promotes
further
> > oxidation. Water
> >> > is not necessary.
> >>
> >> Ummm... actually there are *four* forms of iron oxide.
> >>
> >> From the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics:
> >> FeO -- black crystals
> >> Fe2O3 -- red-brown to black crystals
> >> Fe3O4 -- black crystals or red-black powder
> >> Fe2O3*xH2O -- red-brown amorphous powder -- that's rust.
> >>
> >> Water *is* necessary for rust.
>
> >
> >So you're saying if i put a piece of metal in a closed container that was
> > evacuated then
> >filled with a high concentration of oxygen it would not rust?
>
> That is correct. It would oxidize, but it would not rust.
> >
> >Water can act as a catalyst for rust but so can many other chemicals.
Above
> > you seem to
> >define rust as hydrated iron oxide. Generally when someone speaks of
rust he
> > is refering to
> >any iron oxide.
>
> I doubt that very much. Generally, when people speak of rust, in my
> experience, they're talking about the red stuff that forms on iron or
steel
> that has gotten wet, never about the black oxidation that forms on iron or
> steel that has been exposed to air but kept dry.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Jim Hall wrote:
> A disease.? Granted I beat up on that old Stanley chisel building fences, a
> deck and a shed and there was a neglected rust spot on it for awhile. But I
> cleaned it up along time ago. Now the metal at that spot has sort of eroded
> away a little and there's a black spot there. Doesn't look like rust.. I
> sanded on it today with some wet and dry sand paper some came off. What's
> with the black. Is this black rust?
>
>
When you polish/sharpen the chisel, it creates fine metal particles
which appear black to normal vision. These may have collected in the
etched spot.
In article <[email protected]>, Puckdropper <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>
>> Contrary to popular belief, rust and iron oxide are in fact not the
>> same thing. Rust is *hydrated* iron oxide (iron oxide plus water).
>> When iron or steel gets wet and begins to rust, it's actually a
>> two-step process: the water accelerates the formation of iron oxide --
>> which is black -- and then combines with the top layer it to form
>> rust. When you remove the rust, there's still going to be a spot of
>> black iron oxide beneath it.
>>
>
>So does that rust converter stuff remove the hydrated iron oxide leaving
>only the non-hydrated stuff?
Don't know, sorry. Best to direct that question to the manufacturer.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Thanks for your advice on protecting chisels..
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Jim Hall wrote:
> >
> > > Is this black rust?
> >
> > As to your chisel, then just ignore minor pits. Keep them clean, dry,
> > and oiled with a non-staining oil. Ideally keep them polished too, but
> > I certainly wouldn't lap good steel off the back of a decent old
> > chisel, just to shift a trivial pit or two.
>
> If the pits are back from the edge, I agree with you, if they're at the
> edge, I don't.
>
> What oil do you use on your chisels?
>
> R
>
In article <AFMOg.5764$TA5.1476@fed1read09>, "Jim Hall" <[email protected]> wrote:
>So the black stuff is just another form of oxide, like rust (red stuff) from
>metal getting wet and you treat it similarly..?
There's one big difference: the black iron oxide is crystalline and hard. It
doesn't flake off under light pressure the way rust does, and if it remains
dry, does not contribute materially to deterioration of the metal.
> Scotch brite if off and put
>a sealer, topcoat, camelia oil or other protection on afterwards. Even
>though it may show up in the same spot weeks or months later, you can slow
>the deterioration by cleaning off the black and protecting the metal. Does
>that sound right.?
Ever take a look at really old tools? They're nearly black -- but still solid.
IMO black iron oxide is more a cosmetic defect than anything else, and doesn't
really need to be removed -- as long as you keep it dry. Moisture is the enemy
of iron, even water vapor. So.... polish it off if you like, or leave it
alone, but definitely put some sort of sealer over it.
>Black rust, man, I never realized oxidation was anything
>other than red stuff.. Thanks for info..
Not quite right. If it's black, it isn't rust. Oxidation turns iron black or
dark reddish-brown, and is not in and of itself harmful if kept dry. Oxidation
plus water makes rust.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
In article <[email protected]>, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The process was known as cold rusting. Rust (red) would actually be formed
>and would be polished off leaving the black oxide. To get a uniform surface,
>the rusting and polishing have to be repeated a number of times. The metal
>needs to be polished when the rust layer is light. If left to rust to long,
>pitting would occur. When I was a kid, I used to do this with knife blades.
>It took some time to get a uniform finish but, once you did, it was quite
>resistant to further rusting. I thought that I had come up with quite the
>process. Later I learned how old the process actually was. Reinventing the
>wheel, as it were.
Interesting. Didn't know that. Thanks for the explanation.
>
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "CW"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> >Before the advent of modern chemical bluing, gun barrels were colored by
>a
>> >controlled rusting process leaving the barrel black.
>>
>> "Controlled rusting"? Or controlled oxidation?
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>>
>> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
>
>
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
In article <[email protected]>, r payne <[email protected]> wrote:
>Accually there are 2 forms of iron oxide one of which appears black and
> inhibits further oxidation and one that is orange and promotes further oxidation. Water
> is not necessary.
Ummm... actually there are *four* forms of iron oxide.
From the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics:
FeO -- black crystals
Fe2O3 -- red-brown to black crystals
Fe3O4 -- black crystals or red-black powder
Fe2O3*xH2O -- red-brown amorphous powder -- that's rust.
Water *is* necessary for rust.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Before the advent of modern chemical bluing, gun barrels were colored by a
controlled rusting process leaving the barrel black.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <AFMOg.5764$TA5.1476@fed1read09>, "Jim Hall" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >So the black stuff is just another form of oxide, like rust (red stuff)
from
> >metal getting wet and you treat it similarly..?
>
> There's one big difference: the black iron oxide is crystalline and hard.
It
> doesn't flake off under light pressure the way rust does, and if it
remains
> dry, does not contribute materially to deterioration of the metal.
>
> > Scotch brite if off and put
> >a sealer, topcoat, camelia oil or other protection on afterwards. Even
> >though it may show up in the same spot weeks or months later, you can
slow
> >the deterioration by cleaning off the black and protecting the metal.
Does
> >that sound right.?
>
> Ever take a look at really old tools? They're nearly black -- but still
solid.
> IMO black iron oxide is more a cosmetic defect than anything else, and
doesn't
> really need to be removed -- as long as you keep it dry. Moisture is the
enemy
> of iron, even water vapor. So.... polish it off if you like, or leave it
> alone, but definitely put some sort of sealer over it.
>
> >Black rust, man, I never realized oxidation was anything
> >other than red stuff.. Thanks for info..
>
> Not quite right. If it's black, it isn't rust. Oxidation turns iron black
or
> dark reddish-brown, and is not in and of itself harmful if kept dry.
Oxidation
> plus water makes rust.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
Years ago I put 3 in 1 oil on them and then maybe not use the tool again
until next summer. Since I was chiseling construction wood. Oil didn't
really matter. Today, I haven't been putting anything on them. Have a
recommendation? I read about putting Topcoat or wax on planes, probably
should do the same with chisels I suppose. Is there anything you can do to
prevent further deterioration of black spots or are you doomed and its just
going to be the pits..
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Jim Hall wrote:
> >
> > > Is this black rust?
> >
> > As to your chisel, then just ignore minor pits. Keep them clean, dry,
> > and oiled with a non-staining oil. Ideally keep them polished too, but
> > I certainly wouldn't lap good steel off the back of a decent old
> > chisel, just to shift a trivial pit or two.
>
> If the pits are back from the edge, I agree with you, if they're at the
> edge, I don't.
>
> What oil do you use on your chisels?
>
> R
>