Pentair has hired Goldman Sachs to sell its tool division. Brand names
include Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Air Power, and Oldham Saw.
Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins vs
13% for their water systems.
I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw production
overseas to increase margins.
Brian Elfert
I believe that has already happened... Import automobiles have a heavy tax
burden that brings the prices more in line with the American built cars.
"SteveC1280" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
> candidates push for a buy American movement.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> Most jobs? Or most jobs you are qualified for? Or most jobs you'd
> consider?
All of the above? :) I wasn't being very scientific in my investigation,
so I can't give hard and fast statistics.
> Your problem is that you'd have to take a year or two to learn what is
>needed in these careers. Not easily done when trying to support a family.
Let's not forget that the statistics published for what people can earn in a
given field are always for people who have made it through the lean initial
years too. That's a real deal breaker. I was looking seriously at law
enforcement until I learned that rookie cops make the same as experienced
cashiers at Wal-Mart.
It's the same in a lot of fields. It's not at all unresonable to hold back
the money until people have gained enough experience to do their jobs well,
but the need to weather this low income period makes any career change a
difficult prospect. The only way to circumvent it is to have experience
enough to step in at a higher wage from the outset, which is a pretty nasty
catch 22.
This is one reason why I view income as a trap. I could do *much* better
than $15 an hour in trucking already, but I don't like my trade very much,
and I don't want to limit my options by raising my income too high.
What's that? "Limit your options by raising your income too high? Are you
insane?" No, not at all. I have proven that the more I make, the more
ways I find to obligate myself to maintaining that level of income. If
changing careers and maintaining $15 an hour is difficult (virtually
impossible, I'm afraid), it would be that much more difficult to maintain
$20 or $30.
For that matter, when I started in *this* business, I was earning *far* less
than I could afford to live on today. At the time, it was a step up.
Today, it would be an enormous step down.
Changing careers is a nasty business. The only bright spot in all of this
is that my current industry is a very safe place to be. Like you said to
someone else, one has to find something to do which people are willing to
pay for. Trucking is that. I have job security in spades, shovels and
buckets.
> I relocated once. Glad I did, but don't ever want to do it again. I do
> know people that have been Nomads for their entire working career, moving
> every
> two or three years. Not for me. It does limit your choices for employment
> though. .
Yes it does, but that's for each person to decide. I know nomads who earn a
bazillion dollars a year, and have a fleet of Jaguars. If that's what they
want, more power to them. Personally, I put more stock in being around to
see all the landscape trees I planted grow to maturity.
I would also add "letting my kids stay with their friends" but that's
something I can't control. We are still here, but all of their friends
have been the children of nomads. I've had to watch my daughter lose her
best friend three times now, and she's only in first grade. My son just
doesn't *have* friends anymore, since nobody can be expected to be here six
months from now. I can hardly blame him, really, but it's a sad thing to
see.
Oh, and walnut is the world's most perfect wood. :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 02:10:45 +0000, Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but
> living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for
> some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to
> pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to
> you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money,
> only the increase in some investment account.
Had a boss many years ago that told me the same thing - "I want you
putting away 10% of your gross for the future - never to be tapped until
you retire". I said "I can't afford it". He said, "Her's a 3 % raise,
start there and add to it with every other raise and you'll be at 10% in a
few years". I did and it worked. Been preaching to the Chilun the same
message and they're listening and doing.
-Doug
Joseph Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
> Politicians are already screaming for a raise of minimum wage to over
> $7.00/hr. For what christsakes!? Because some lame idiot was too busy
> smoking dope and beating the other kids for lunch money to stay in
> school to be educated!?
!?!
> Bill Gates produces a better more users friendly product and everyone
> sues him because he's got a "monopoly".
There are a lot of whoppers floating around this discussion, but this
one is priceless.
> No they sue him because he's
> got money and it is politically correct to demonize him.
Its PC to defend him actually.
The guy keeps breaking laws and then getting slapped on the wrist. The
laws are there to provide a framework. They are required for capitalism.
Among the many suits he has lost include ones for merely taking what
doesn't belong to him.
[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> >A lot of the immigrants coming into the USA now are doing so illegally.
> >
> >The immigrants in the 1800s came here legally at least.
>
> and they were willing to learn the language. skeez
There were illegal immigrants then too.
I visit a doctor's office with my dad which is invariably filled with
Serbian old people who speak it constantly. I doubt all of them are
fluent in English and may well have been here many decades. What to do?
Are they bad?
Pew research studied assimilation including language acquisition.
Today's hispanics learned and assimilated faster than any prior group.
So much for the "willing to learn" political spin.
Personally, I wish the Italians, Polish, Germans, Irish, Mexicans,
Columbians, Purple, Green and Yellow groups would assimilate more
slowly. I enjoy different cultures.
David Hall <[email protected]> wrote:
> "you owe me" seems to be the low
> skilled low educated american's mantra.
Uh, the tax code is replete with welfare programs that require higher
levels of income to qualify.
Even in the middle it is a virtual non-stop "you owe me."
I'm sure if this off topic discussion went on and you were to reveal
your deductions and examined the services you received, your argument
would be that they were owed to you.
CW <[email protected]> wrote:
> >can "program" the internet....
> >
> You actually got a resume from Al Gore?
High Speed Computing Act.
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > "you owe me" seems to be the low
> > > skilled low educated american's mantra.
> >
> > Uh, the tax code is replete with welfare programs that require higher
> > levels of income to qualify.
> >
> > Even in the middle it is a virtual non-stop "you owe me."
> >
> > I'm sure if this off topic discussion went on and you were to reveal
> > your deductions and examined the services you received, your argument
> > would be that they were owed to you.
> >
>
> This attitude that somehow deductions, i.e. allowing people to keep a
> little more of the money *they* have earned somehow equates to welfare,
> the receipt of *other* peoples' money is more than a bit disturbing and
> quite irritating.
You want services for nothing? When you eat a meal at a restaurant, do
you pay for it or do you say that you have paid enough money for meals
lately and that you don't feel like paying? Or perhaps you want your
group to not pay as much as others because you're special or powerful?
> It bespeaks an attitude that the money is the
> government's first, and mine second.
What? You bespeak talk radio twaddle.
Welfare is unearned income and you can call them subsidies, deductions,
exclusions, shelters, credits or whatever you want but they are the
same. Sorry if that isn't PC.
> It indicates that I should be
> grateful for what the government lets me take home after it (the
> government) has decided how much of my time is owed it first.
Yeah, I suppose you believe that people without homes should subsidize
those with and that people without children should subsidize those with,
etc., etc. ad infinitum. You can play word games, but what it comes down
to is you want some one else to pay for your share.
Lo and behold, your indignation is just restated "you owe me." The
fellow who made that statement ascribed it to low skilled, low education
Americans. Does that accurately describe you?
Bridger <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 06 Feb 2004 15:36:45 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Pretty soon,
> >one ticket machine will take an entire wall to include all the
> >instructions in different languages.
> >
> >Brian Elfert
>
>
> nothing a little well written software can't take care of.
>
> we'd all be richer for it.
Yeah, software is free.
Brian Elfert <[email protected]> writes:
> "Frank Ketchum" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >> We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
> >> car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
> >> overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
>
> >Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
> >say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
> >implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
> >and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
> >really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
> >Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
>
> I don't like all the manufacturing jobs going overseas, but it is
> happening. I try to buy USA made where possible but some stuff is almost
> impossible to find made in the USA. I can't always afford to spend a day
> or two trying to find an item made in the USA.
>
> In another decade or so, we won't have any IT jobs left in the USA.
> Everything will be farmed out to India. With the Internet, all the
> servers will get moved to India. The only computers left in the USA will
> be desktops that are maintained by a very small workforce.
>
> I fully expect to be out of a job in 5 to 10 years as server
> administration gets farmed out overseas to save money.
There's no doubt that capitalism and international trade are
great economic levellers. However, the level may well be
quite low if nobody can afford to buy the products that are
being produced (cheaply).
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
> "Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
> > owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
> > work you have ever seen. >
> > Brian Elfert
>
> Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian,
> your forefathers were immigrants.
>
> The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an immigrant.
> More examples available if needed.
American natives are immigrants from Asia. Humans appear to
have first appeared in Africa where they evolved from something
else. All living organisms evolved from a primordal stew. The
primordal stew may have started from comets crashing into Earth.
How far back do we want to trace to determine ancestry?
Silvan wrote:
>
> Let's not forget that the statistics published for what people can
> earn in a given field are always for people who have made it through
> the lean initial years too. That's a real deal breaker.
Often true. My son graduated from school and passed his certification tests.
The hospital where her worked said "that's nice." He left to go to another
hospital for $8 and hour more doing the same exact job. After two years he
left and started his own business in the field and now makes more in a year
than i make in about eight.
>
> It's the same in a lot of fields. It's not at all unresonable to
> hold back the money until people have gained enough experience to do
> their jobs well, but the need to weather this low income period makes
> any career change a difficult prospect. The only way to circumvent
> it is to have experience enough to step in at a higher wage from the
> outset, which is a pretty nasty catch 22.
Yes, unless you get lucky and can work in the new chosen field part time to
hone your skills and get some experience. That's a rarity though.
>
> If changing careers and maintaining $15 an hour is
> difficult (virtually impossible, I'm afraid), it would be that much
> more difficult to maintain $20 or $30.
Yes, you'd amazed at the number of people that are stepping down from high
paid positions as the economy changes from manufacturing to service
oriented.
> Changing careers is a nasty business. The only bright spot in all of
> this is that my current industry is a very safe place to be. Like
> you said to someone else, one has to find something to do which
> people are willing to pay for. Trucking is that. I have job
> security in spades, shovels and buckets.
Recenly read about the shortage of drivers. There are considerations to
lower the age for a CDL and allowing 18 year olds to drive under some
circumstances.
>
> Oh, and walnut is the world's most perfect wood. :)
That bring up another thought. Didn't you say you hauled furniture? Any of
your stops make the stuff and have good scraps? In the building our
company is in there is a display house. I've found some nice cutoffs that
have been made into my outfeed table, a sewing table fo rmy wife, plywood
for jigs, etc. Dumpter diving pays.
--
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
[email protected] wrote:
>>Of course, workmanship is going to crap along with that but who cares.
>>The contractors are making money.
> same here. skeez
Don't be hypocrits. The making more money thing is temporary until a
price war breaks out. This usually happens very soon in competitive
industries. Once a proce war is on, the prices come down and everyone is
happy because they paid less.
Just look at WalMart, they truly have lower prices, and part of the
reason is that they hired a cheaper company that hired illegal immigrant
labor.
The moral of the story: Americans, by shopping in droves at WalMart, are
causing this on themselves. There's not other way about it. Companies
are not going to complain about getting cheap labor, specially if they
expand their marketshare. It is up to the citizens (who are too busy
shopping at WalMart) to initiate the reform.
The big, big losers in this are unskilled (or low-skilled) american
workers whcih are being replaced by cheap labor. Both here and abroad.
The bad thing is that skilled jobs are also leaving the country, and
americans do not cry about that at all.
--
gabriel
On 04 Feb 2004 15:24:02 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
>car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
>overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
>
>Brian Elfert
hell, if they're sending handsaws to japan to be sharpened,(apparently
'cause us 'murricanz is too dumb to do it) sending your car to
singapore for a tune up can't be far off.
Bridger
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Brian Elfert wrote:
> > RB <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >
> >>It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
> >>colony of Asia. Or are we already?
> >
> >
> > I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
> > exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.
> >
> > It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
> > household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
> > labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
> > buy.
> >
> > There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
> > right here in the USA.
>
> I thought they had large sections of fuselage sub contracted out to China?
>
Nope, Japan. China is not quite there in terms of high-end,
consistently reliable manufacturing.
If Bush REALLY wanted to help the economy, he would ONLY give us a tax
cut when we submit PROOF that we bought that much in American Made
products. Not "assembled" but MADE in the USA.
That would help. I have been looking for a job for almost a year. I am
a college graduate and am having to compete with people who have
written grants and published for $22,000 a year jobs. When they show
up (rarely). That's a "good" economy? Of course, this is Arkansas.
On 04 Feb 2004 14:41:04 GMT, [email protected] (SteveC1280)
wrote:
>More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
>candidates push for a buy American movement.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:31:09 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
|
|"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
|>
|> Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
|> owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
|> work you have ever seen. >
|> Brian Elfert
|
|Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
|were immigrants.
Actually, even if you are an American Indian your ancestors were
immigrants. There is no evidence of human evolution in the new world.
[email protected] (SteveC1280) writes:
>More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
>candidates push for a buy American movement.
Pentair doesn't even have a buyer yet. We don't know that any buyer will
move jobs overseas.
Yes, it is likely that production will move overseas. If production of
the Unisaw is moved overseas, there will no longer be any reason to buy
the Unisaw. The Jet is already less expensive and the quality is nearly
equal to the Unisaw.
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
Brian Elfert
"Frank Ketchum" <[email protected]> writes:
>> We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
>> car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
>> overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
>>
>Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
>say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
>implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
>and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
>really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
>Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
I don't like all the manufacturing jobs going overseas, but it is
happening. I try to buy USA made where possible but some stuff is almost
impossible to find made in the USA. I can't always afford to spend a day
or two trying to find an item made in the USA.
In another decade or so, we won't have any IT jobs left in the USA.
Everything will be farmed out to India. With the Internet, all the
servers will get moved to India. The only computers left in the USA will
be desktops that are maintained by a very small workforce.
I fully expect to be out of a job in 5 to 10 years as server
administration gets farmed out overseas to save money.
Brian Elfert
On 06 Feb 2004 15:36:45 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
Pretty soon,
>one ticket machine will take an entire wall to include all the
>instructions in different languages.
>
>Brian Elfert
nothing a little well written software can't take care of.
we'd all be richer for it.
"Leon" <[email protected]> writes:
>I believe that has already happened... Import automobiles have a heavy tax
>burden that brings the prices more in line with the American built cars.
Even if there is a tax burden, Korean built cars are still less expensive
than USA built cars, at least on the low end.
Brian Elfert
Bridger <[email protected]> writes:
>hell, if they're sending handsaws to japan to be sharpened,(apparently
>'cause us 'murricanz is too dumb to do it) sending your car to
>singapore for a tune up can't be far off.
Yes, sir, we can get your car tuned up in India for only $5. The bad news
is that shipping will be $600 and your car will be gone for five weeks.
I doubt anyone is sending a handsaw to Japan for sharpening to save money.
Wages there are as just as high as here. The Japanese can probably do a
better job and shipping a hand saw is pretty darn cheap compared to a car.
Brian Ekfert
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:
>i will second that! i am not in the IT feild. I am in construction so
>its different. my job is not going overseas but all the imigrants are
>taking the construction jobs now because they are willing to work
>cheap. wages are dropping because of this but the cost of living is
Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
work you have ever seen. Almost everything has been redone at least once.
My friend has spent 10s of thousands on repairs to a new house. Last I
heard, the stucco was being replaced because no expansion joints were
used.
I worked with a group of Hmong cutting grass in the 80s. They expended
more effort figuring out how not to do work than actually working.
Luckily, it was a drought year and there wasn't any grass to cut.
Brian Elfert
On 04 Feb 2004 14:41:04 GMT, [email protected] (SteveC1280)
wrote:
>More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
>candidates push for a buy American movement.
BUY MADE IN USA!
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"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
>> owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
>> work you have ever seen. >
>> Brian Elfert
>Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
>were immigrants.
I think everyone knows what I meant. I guess I should have said illegal
immigrants or recent immigrants.
Brian Elfert
It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
colony of Asia. Or are we already?
RB
Brian Elfert wrote:
> Pentair has hired Goldman Sachs to sell its tool division. Brand names
> include Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Air Power, and Oldham Saw.
>
> Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins vs
> 13% for their water systems.
>
> I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
> Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw production
> overseas to increase margins.
>
> Brian Elfert
RB <[email protected]> writes:
>It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
>colony of Asia. Or are we already?
I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.
It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
buy.
There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
right here in the USA.
Brian Elfert
So were theirs. Purely a case of date.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your
forefathers
> were immigrants.
>
Brian Elfert wrote:
> RB <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
>>colony of Asia. Or are we already?
>
>
> I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
> exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.
>
> It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
> household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
> labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
> buy.
>
> There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
> right here in the USA.
I thought they had large sections of fuselage sub contracted out to China?
-Bruce
>
> Brian Elfert
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Not so sure about other employee-owned outfits, but I do know that the state
employee unions and our teachers' union members would rather see their
"brothers" laid off than forego their raises in a time of tight money.
What was it the beggar said to Tev'e in Fiddler on the roof, when given one
kopeck?
"One kopeck, last week you gave me two kopecks."
"I had a bad week."
"Because you had a bad week, I should suffer?"
"Jim Bailey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:d6cUb.16258
> Back on topic - I like Wes's idea a few posts back. Isn't there at least
a
> couple of employee owned airlines that are doing pretty well? Why not a
> tool company ?
>
"Bob Schmall" <[email protected]> writes:
>This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in school
>until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
>bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during the
>Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
>cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants, but
>by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely
>assimilated within the new culture.As for sending money home, historians now
A lot of the immigrants coming into the USA now are doing so illegally.
The immigrants in the 1800s came here legally at least.
Brian Elfert
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>need are people to do a low skilled job with a correspondingly low pay. It
>is above minimum wage, it offers holidays, vacation, health insurance, 401k.
>Qualifications are to be able to look at parts and know a good one from a
>bad one (we'll show you how), be able to write the date and shift, and show
>up pretty much every day. We are located in a small town (pop. 12,000) in
>New England, surrounded by other small towns.
>I can't find people. We must use a temp labor service to bring people from
Gee, you can't find people who want to work for near poverty level wages?
You don't say what you pay, but you think $15/hour is too high, so your
wages can't be very much.
I know everyone can't work for $20 to $30 an hour, but around $10 an hour
is very much on the low end for a full time job. Who needs a 401k when
they can't afford to put anything into it?
Brian Elfert
Brian Elfert responds:
>>need are people to do a low skilled job with a correspondingly low pay. It
>>is above minimum wage, it offers holidays, vacation, health insurance, 401k.
>>Qualifications are to be able to look at parts and know a good one from a
>>bad one (we'll show you how), be able to write the date and shift, and show
>>up pretty much every day. We are located in a small town (pop. 12,000) in
>>New England, surrounded by other small towns.
>
>>I can't find people. We must use a temp labor service to bring people from
>
>Gee, you can't find people who want to work for near poverty level wages?
>You don't say what you pay, but you think $15/hour is too high, so your
>wages can't be very much.
>
>I know everyone can't work for $20 to $30 an hour, but around $10 an hour
>is very much on the low end for a full time job. Who needs a 401k when
>they can't afford to put anything into it?
You should check out this area. People who get 9 bucks an hour are in the
middle to high range, and jobs that pay much more than that are disappearing at
a high rate of speed.
I listen to Bush talk about how the economy is improving, then pick up that
morning's newspaper with another 110 jobs gone, down from the 350 that went
last week and down from the 1100 expected to go in the following week. But,
hey, there's a new Eagle store staffing downtown--where a Big Bear went broke.
Of course 15 bucks an hour isn't too high, but how much are you going to pay a
person for looking at a part to see if it has obvious faults? A 401K may not be
the hot set up at 8-9 bucks an hour, but that health insurance is one helluva
come-on for many people. And that pay rate may not be fantastic, but in a lot
of areas in this country, it's a livable wage, a good spot to start out, if not
a great place to end up.
Or are we all supposed to walk into a job and get paid what everyone else,
including those there 15-20-25 years, is paid?
That low end payment is highly variable across the U.S. I can see jobs in some
areas that I'd love to have at $50,000 a year, but there's not a single chance
in a million you could entice me to California, for instance, for double that
kind of money.
Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
You'd best not say such blasphemous things in the south. Don't you know
that evolution is a dirty word? ;-)
I read a fascinating book a while back, "The Surprising Archaea:
Discovering Another Domain of Life" by Professor John L. Howland of
Bowdoin College. In it he presents the most compelling argument in
support of evolution from they type of event that could give rise to
your primordial stew. An enjoyable and very informative read.
RB
Everett M. Greene wrote:
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
>>>owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
>>>work you have ever seen. >
>>>Brian Elfert
>>
>>Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian,
>>your forefathers were immigrants.
>>
>>The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an immigrant.
>>More examples available if needed.
>
>
> American natives are immigrants from Asia. Humans appear to
> have first appeared in Africa where they evolved from something
> else. All living organisms evolved from a primordal stew. The
> primordal stew may have started from comets crashing into Earth.
>
> How far back do we want to trace to determine ancestry?
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
>As for not putting anything in the 401k, I do know for a fact that one of
>these guys has about $100,000 in value in his. Not bad for a HS grad in his
>20's with little skills.
This guy must have played the market very well or is living on virtually
nothing if he has put away $100,000 working at $9/hr. He is probably the
exception and not the norm for $9/hr workers.
>If we paid $15 or $20 for the work, a tradesman or carpenter would be
>getting paid $80 + benefits or so to be in scale. If we paid that rate,
>we'd also be out of business. We are very much in line with our competition
I'm sure the competition is paying the same. You were complaining you
can't find workers. Paying $9 a hour probably explains most of it right
there.
It would be extremely difficult to raise a family on $9 an hour, no matter
how low the cost of living.
Brian Elfert
Brian Elfert writes:
>I'm sure the competition is paying the same. You were complaining you
>can't find workers. Paying $9 a hour probably explains most of it right
>there.
>
>It would be extremely difficult to raise a family on $9 an hour, no matter
>how low the cost of living.
Uh, you mean it's not up to the worker to learn more, work harder, get more
money. He should just walk in and get top salary with no experience, no skills?
This is an ENTRY level job, for chrissakes. You're not supposed to make enough
to raise a family with an entry level job when your entry level includes
neither experience nor education.
Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
>Brian Elfert writes:
>
>>I'm sure the competition is paying the same. You were complaining you
>>can't find workers. Paying $9 a hour probably explains most of it right
>>there.
>>
>>It would be extremely difficult to raise a family on $9 an hour, no matter
>>how low the cost of living.
>
>Uh, you mean it's not up to the worker to learn more, work harder, get more
>money. He should just walk in and get top salary with no experience, no
>skills?
>
>This is an ENTRY level job, for chrissakes. You're not supposed to make
>enough
>to raise a family with an entry level job when your entry level includes
>neither experience nor education.
>
>Charlie Self
So obviously you shoukd just give up and suck in a little welfare because this
mean old businessman isn't willing to pay $20 an hour for $5 an hour work. And
we wonder why immigrants, legal or illegal, are sought after. That attitude -
more than the low wage - is the reason. "you owe me" seems to be the low
skilled low educated american's mantra.
Dave Hall
[email protected] (Charlie Self) writes:
>Uh, you mean it's not up to the worker to learn more, work harder, get more
>money. He should just walk in and get top salary with no experience, no skills?
>This is an ENTRY level job, for chrissakes. You're not supposed to make enough
>to raise a family with an entry level job when your entry level includes
>neither experience nor education.
How much skill or education does it really take to work on an auto
assembly line and they get paid a lot more than $9/hr.
The original poster was wondering why he couldn't find workers for $9/hr.
Not being able to support a family on $9/hr is one reason he can't find
workers.
I worked at the Minnesota State Fair cutting grass for $4 or $5 an hour
back in the late 80s/early 90s. Most of the workers were lazy bums and
management complained all the time about the lousy workers. What did they
expect when they paid bottom dollar? I could have made somewhat more
elsewhere, but the hours at the fair were great and I was in high
school/college.
Brian Elfert
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> The original poster was wondering why he couldn't find workers for $9/hr.
> Not being able to support a family on $9/hr is one reason he can't find
> workers.
>
> I worked at the Minnesota State Fair cutting grass for $4 or $5 an hour
> back in the late 80s/early 90s. Most of the workers were lazy bums and
> management complained all the time about the lousy workers. What did they
> expect when they paid bottom dollar? I could have made somewhat more
> elsewhere, but the hours at the fair were great and I was in high
> school/college.
>
> Brian Elfert
The bums would be bums at 10X that wage. It is more than just money.
You can't support a family for that wage, but that does not mean people are
not happy earning it. Many of our workers are single, but some have second
household incomes. One fellow is a computer programmer and supervisor, but
likes to work for us to make an few extra $ to afford his BMW. It is a job
with no stress, no thinking.
Another single guy does not speak more than a dozen words of English. He
makes enough to buy a six pack, once a week or so he buys some poontang,
goes to the casino, and then takes a few days off to recuperate. Working
for an agency he can get away with calling his own hours, not so with most
employers.
Another just works to get out of the house and away from her husband. Still
another makes a few bucks to spoil the grand kids.
You may be surprised, but there are many people that have little ambition,
are happy with almost nothing, don't want to have responsibility. We
offered one of the Temps a full time job as a supervisor, good pay (double
to start) and loads of benefits. It scared him off and we did not see him
for two weeks.
Another Temp just told me today that he is leaving after this week to go
back to this old $15/hour job that he was laid off from some months ago.
Good for him. He thanked us for letting him work for us.
Others are working here because they can study for college exams if they are
keeping up with the packing. They won't be here forever, I hope.
Brian, I have no idea what you do for a living, but you should look around
more and see the different cultures that abound in this country. I'm sure
you are earning much more that we pay our packers, but you also have a
better education, more ambition, better skills, and probably an upbringing
in the USA.
I thought long and hard about these people and wondered if we are exploiting
them. No. we are not. We are giving them the opportunity to earn money
instead of being a burden on the welfare systems, We give them exposure to
assist in learning a different way of life, ability to try to speak English,
and learn customs of a new country. They are in no way second class
workers. Many go on to bigger and better and we wish them well. We get a
real bum once in a while, but we get many dedicated and responsible people
and we treat them well. Two that I'm aware of turned down a 50¢ increase at
another company because they'd rather work for us. That is a bit difference
at their wage level.
There is more, much more, to life that how much you earn.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> [email protected] (Charlie Self) writes:
>
>>Uh, you mean it's not up to the worker to learn more, work harder, get
>>more money. He should just walk in and get top salary with no
>>experience, no skills?
>
>>This is an ENTRY level job, for chrissakes. You're not supposed to
>>make enough to raise a family with an entry level job when your entry
>>level includes neither experience nor education.
>
> How much skill or education does it really take to work on an auto
> assembly line and they get paid a lot more than $9/hr.
>
> The original poster was wondering why he couldn't find workers for
> $9/hr. Not being able to support a family on $9/hr is one reason he
> can't find workers.
>
> I worked at the Minnesota State Fair cutting grass for $4 or $5 an
> hour back in the late 80s/early 90s. Most of the workers were lazy
> bums and management complained all the time about the lousy workers.
> What did they expect when they paid bottom dollar? I could have made
> somewhat more elsewhere, but the hours at the fair were great and I
> was in high school/college.
>
> Brian Elfert
>
Let me see. The guy has 35 employees making $9.00. If he raises his
prices so that he can pay them more then we cheap Americans won't buy
his product so he goes out of buisness. Then there are 35 people on
unemployement.
Hmmmmmm, sounds like a good trade to me.
Didn't Jimmy and Willie do a bunch of amnestying, too?
Of course, with Jimmy it was Canadians....
"Bob Schmall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> True--which is one reason I'm opposed to Mr. Bush's proposal to make them
> citizens. Another is that it's a cheap election-year ploy that will play
in
> the Latino community but never get passed.
Sort of like saying "unwed mother" instead of "single parent," is it?
Or in line with the discussion - "illegal alien" versus "undocumented
migrant."
Anyone but me get Diane Ravitch's _The Language Police_ for Christmas?
It reminded me of my class in early Stalinist literature, except I could
laugh at it then.
"RB" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> You'd best not say such blasphemous things in the south. Don't you know
> that evolution is a dirty word? ;-)
>
> I read a fascinating book a while back, "The Surprising Archaea:
> Discovering Another Domain of Life" by Professor John L. Howland of
> Bowdoin College. In it he presents the most compelling argument in
> support of evolution from they type of event that could give rise to
> your primordial stew. An enjoyable and very informative read.
"Bob Schmall" <[email protected]> writes:
>own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
>current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the
>desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
>languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
>society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made
>by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries."
The state of Minnesota is building their first light rail line in
Minneapolis.
The designers originally decided to go with two languages for the ticket
machines, english, and I think Spanish. The Somali community got all
upset that Somali wasn't added as a third language. I think the Somalis
got their way and several hundred thousand was spent to have Somali added
to the machines.
They should have just put english on the machines and left it at that.
Next time around, the Hmong, the Chinese, and the Indians (From India, not
native americans) will all want their language on there too. Pretty soon,
one ticket machine will take an entire wall to include all the
instructions in different languages.
Brian Elfert
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Silvan wrote:
>
> > I guess it's time to be grateful I have a job, and stop worrying that
> > I'm wasting my education. Nobody's looking to hire anyone with an
> > education in anything other than business administration, and I can't
> > imagine anything more mind numbing.
Let's be glad they're not calling it "Business Management"...
I've changed my mind about educating my kids. They are getting
a trade first. THEN, if they want, they can go to Uni.
> I know people in the Washington DC area who have devoted their entire
> working lives to national and international standards development.
> Important but IMO jam-a-chisel-in-your-leg-to-stay-awake boring.
standard size chisel, I presume?
<d&r>
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
[email protected]
Literacy used to be a requirement for citizenship - so the new citizen could
understand the ballot.
You _DO_ have to be a citizen to vote, most places....
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You've gotta be kidding? What kind of evidence has to fall on you?
> California printed their last government election ballots in something
> on the order of 64 different languages. Doesn't seem like a whole lot
> of assimilation going on there, does there?
In article <1g8q8h6.8dwie5tsvjvN%[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> David Hall <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "you owe me" seems to be the low
> > skilled low educated american's mantra.
>
> Uh, the tax code is replete with welfare programs that require higher
> levels of income to qualify.
>
> Even in the middle it is a virtual non-stop "you owe me."
>
> I'm sure if this off topic discussion went on and you were to reveal
> your deductions and examined the services you received, your argument
> would be that they were owed to you.
>
This attitude that somehow deductions, i.e. allowing people to keep a
little more of the money *they* have earned somehow equates to welfare,
the receipt of *other* peoples' money is more than a bit disturbing and
quite irritating. It bespeaks an attitude that the money is the
government's first, and mine second. It indicates that I should be
grateful for what the government lets me take home after it (the
government) has decided how much of my time is owed it first.
Mark & Juanita writes:
>
> This attitude that somehow deductions, i.e. allowing people to keep a
>little more of the money *they* have earned somehow equates to welfare,
>the receipt of *other* peoples' money is more than a bit disturbing and
>quite irritating. It bespeaks an attitude that the money is the
>government's first, and mine second.
Not just income tax. Try not paying your property taxes for a few years. Bingo!
Auction block time, except I think smaller towns do it from the courthouse
steps.
You really, really don't own a thing. You rent it from the government,
whichever government entity is in charge of a particular segment.
Charlie Self
"Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you
nothing. It was here first." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I'm wondering, Nahmie sponsored by Jet?
>
> UA100
Well, simply because Pentair wishes to sell the tools unit does not
mean all that much from my point of view. This business has been
bought and sold several times, moved from Milwalkee to Tennessee,
outsourced, overseas-ed, pinched for profits and likely reconfigured
in as many ways as some newly minted MBAs who don't know a dado from a
tenon could dream up. Let's face it, the Pentair finance guys have
made a decision that the earinings curve on
homeowner/hobbyist/professional tool sales volume has peaked, right or
wrong, so they are sellers. I mean, after all, mass market is where
the sales volume is. Jet is also on the verge of eating their lunch,
Dewalt and Jet have been a bit more innovative in product development,
and Jet has shown committment to the sector with their Powermatic
acquisition. We all can complain from time to time, but Jet is really
giving Delta a run for their money in the stationery tool market, I
own both brands and frankly find it hard to distinguish -again,
overall- from quality. Yes, I like my Delta 14" band saw a bit more
than the Jet, but the two cabinet saws are indistinguishable in
quality - I bought the Unisaw only because the dealer matched the
price to the Jet for a "Great White" leftover. The fact is Pentair
has a $1 Billion revenue stream (which ain't chicken liver) from tools
generating <10% margins - who's to say that a buyer, at a price based
upon an appropriate earnings multiple, could not tweak the business,
make it stronger, more responsive to its customers, improve the
margins and make it better in the long run for both the owners and the
customers? I for one would rather have someone focused on tools as
their main business, rather than water treatment. It's like when AMF
bought Harley Davidson, they ran it into the ground, bunch of bean
counters, and the product suffered - those bikes were garbage. Get
someone really committed to the product and customer and folks will
pay a bit more for service and quality.
Mutt wrote:
>Well, simply because Pentair wishes to sell the tools unit does not
>mean all that much from my point of view. This business has been
>bought and sold several times, moved from Milwalkee to Tennessee,
>outsourced, overseas-ed, pinched for profits and likely reconfigured
>in as many ways as some newly minted MBAs who don't know a dado from a
>tenon could dream up.
Interesting that you bring this up as I was pondering a
similar line last night during some of my "I don't have to
be thinking of useful stuff right now" down time. What's
different, at least for me is, this is one chapter of the
Great Delta Legacy that I'll/we'll be able to watch first
hand.
>Let's face it, the Pentair finance guys have made a decision that the earinings curve on
>homeowner/hobbyist/professional tool sales volume has peaked, right or
>wrong, so they are sellers. I mean, after all, mass market is where
>the sales volume is.
By the way, the finance guys arrived at Delta shortly after
the sale of the company in 1939. Now it's rather
interesting that during that time and well up into the next
couple of decades the engineers and sales force at Delta
managed to keep them at bay (some what). By the mid-70's
they (engineers at least) had been pretty well beaten down
and the new world order was in place. This wasn't the
beginning of the end as that had really begun rather
benignly years before but it certainly accelerated Delta's
demise.
>Jet is also on the verge of eating their lunch,
Oh hell yes. Delta is Jet's stiffest competition though
stiff in this case may not be the right word. The game was
Delta's to lose and they lost it. Plain and simple, game
over man.
>Dewalt and Jet have been a bit more innovative in product development,
DeWalt is one thing but Jet has pretty much built their line
on the back of the already available Delta design. I
suppose you could make a case-by-case argument but let's
face it, they only backwards engineered the Delta line.
>and Jet has shown committment to the sector with their Powermatic
>acquisition.
I'm thinking the jury is still out on Powermatic and that
only time will tell.
some snippage...
>It's like when AMF bought Harley Davidson, they ran it into the ground,
>bunch of bean counters, and the product suffered - those bikes were garbage.
My AMF/HD argument has always centered on the fact that
without AMF guys like Teerlink and Bluestein (sp?) would
never have had a company left to rescue. The same might be
said for Penthair though I don't think Penthair is to blame
as much as Delta's internal management. It's a blurred line
I know but from what I have seen an owner doesn't always
hold the cards and it usually comes down to the people doing
the actual work.
>Get someone really committed to the product and customer and folks will
>pay a bit more for service and quality.
Oh hell yes. Now, may I?
I'm thinking Jet is turning their pockets inside out right
now and looking at all available avenues to buy the Penthair
Machinery ConGlomCo. It would make them instant players in
the markets they don't already have a foot in
(Porter-Cable/DeVilbis/et al). It allows them to make Delta
dead should they decide that to be a good thing. After all,
there really isn't a need to have two of everything. Least
of which it buys up Delta's distribution and customer base
though they already seem to be everywhere that Delta is.
This would be no different than Delta and Rockwell buying up
Walker-Turner, Crescent, Red Star and all the other great
woodworking machinery makers that have fallen by the wayside
but had/have made Delta what it was once upon a time.
A'yup, we have a front row center seat here for the next
chapter of the Great Delta Legacy.
UA100, off to make popcorn and scrunching his ass down in
the big comfy chair...
"Wes Stewart" <n7ws@_arrl.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:27:31 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
> pushed a hot button:
>
>
> |What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want
to
> |do?
>
> Nothing personal Ed but...
>
> Your's is the tired argument that wetbacks and other criminal
> immigrants are only taking the jobs that Americans won't take. Nooo,
> they are taking the jobs that Americans won't take at the depressed
> wages that the illegals will work for.
>
> Curiously, somehow in the past all of this work got done without this
> "cheap" labor.
Wes, I agree with your facts about illegals having babies and costing us
money. There are, however, jobs that are low paying and a lot of people
just won't do them today. I can assure you also, that I am not the person
with all the answers to correct this.
I manage a small company with 20 employees. We need 35 employees. What we
need are people to do a low skilled job with a correspondingly low pay. It
is above minimum wage, it offers holidays, vacation, health insurance, 401k.
Qualifications are to be able to look at parts and know a good one from a
bad one (we'll show you how), be able to write the date and shift, and show
up pretty much every day. We are located in a small town (pop. 12,000) in
New England, surrounded by other small towns.
I can't find people. We must use a temp labor service to bring people from
out of the area. They are legal immigrants or aliens (the agency says so),
some speak English, but that is not required. They work for less than $9 an
hour. The locals are either not interested in these jobs, or they are not
qualified. I don't hire high school dropouts because most are bozos that
don't show up. Or just don't give a damn about what they are doing. (a
whole other topics of discussion)
Can we pay more? Subject to debate I guess, but more money is not getting
us any better applicants. We are in a very competitive business and can't
raise prices to pay for more labor. We can't move to another cheaper area
because the freight cost of the product will far exceed any savings. Our
business region is limited to about 250 miles.
Many of the applicants I get want to drive a fork lift truck and get paid
$15/hr. Others come from the closed down GM plant that paid $20+ per hour.
Without the recent immigrants, we could not run our business. Some of these
people do not speak English but communicate very well. They are not stupid,
they work and give an honest days work. We treat them the same as our full
time employees. Same breaks, same free coffee, they are invited to our
summer picnic, etc. Our intention is to have them as workers at a fair
wage, not to exploit them. The temp agency helps them with transportation.
We have been able to hire a couple as full time employees, some are not
interested.
Ed
Joe Willmann <[email protected]> writes:
> Silvan <[email protected]> wrote
> > CW wrote:
> >
> >> Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
> >> anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
> >> should tell their students what their job prospects are going to be
> >> in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep teachers
> >> working.
>
> I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
> talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
> debt. She owed about $35,000. Something like this - 20K for student
> loans, 7K for automobile and the rest on credit cards.
>
> So he asked her what she did. She is a waitress in a restraunt.
> Something like TGI Fridays or such.
>
> He asked about her student status. She graduated two years ealier with
> a BA in performing arts!
>
> You know, I understand the desire to go to school and study something
> "fun". But if you can't make a living at it, it isn't a carear it is a
> hobby. You have to pay for hobbies as you go.
>
> Borrowing 20K to get an education in performing arts should be against
> the law. Her parents ought to sue the school, the professors and the
> bank that loaned her the money.
>
> Actually she ought to sue her parents for letting her do such a stupid
> thing.
There's always been a question about studying for degrees in non-
professional fields. I once had a young neighbor who was thinking
about giving up on the Army as a career and asked me what he might
be able to do with his history degree. I wasn't able to suggest
any single thing for him. Even my engineering degree hasn't proven
to be worth much once I got past 50.
At least the young ladies have motherhood and home management as
low-cost alternative careers. [Ducking for cover if any such
should read this!]
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
>
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>
> >
> > ... and at least when I was going through college in the late '70s,
> > early 80s, the professors in those fields would tell the class that
> > their goal should be the "joy of learning" or "to become a well-rounded
> > and educated individual". Those of us in the engineering curriculum
> > would simply nod, fulfill the course requirements, and move on, somehow
> > knowing that there should have been more than a little bit of motivation
> > to find something that would provide value for someone in the future as
> > well.
>
>
>
> That's the crime, at one time higher education was about learning. Now colleges
> and universities are about getting jobs.
>
... and what were the people who left college after "the learning"
supposed to do? There needs to be a balance of learning for learning's
sake as well as learning for the purpose of providing the student a
future beyond college.
> When the focus shifted one result was a major increase in graduates thinking
> they learned everything they needed to learn in school. Usually it takes someone
> with a little formal power, such as an employer, to break this thinking.
> Unfortunately it's never completely broken. Try telling an engineer something
> contrary to their book learning that you've learned from experience and personal
> observation and unless you happen to hold an advanced degree they don't want to
> believe you.
>
... in most cases, the good engineers will listen to experience.
OTOH, I have seen people "with experience" trying to tell engineers how
things should be, the problem is that those "experienced" people did not
see the big picture, in many cases, their experienced opinion would work
in a single, isolated instance, but the problem being solved required a
solution that could maintain operability in even the 3 to 5 sigma
operating conditions.
> Another result was the teaching of the test and how to puke answers instead of
> thinking. This is becoming rampant.
>
>
When I was in engineering school, the arts & sciences classes were
those that "taught the test" (in a number of instances, in other
instances they at least told you where the answers were to be found.
Most of the engineering tests I took were tests where the professor felt
that the test itself should be a "learning experience" That typically
meant that whatever you learned during the coursework leading up to the
test, and all of the homework problems you had worked were useless, the
test was going to be about something completely different.
The other "fun" classes were those where it seemed that the pre-
requisite for the course was a full and complete working knowledge of
all the material to be covered in the class.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
> Mark Twain)
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
> (Gaz, r.moto)
>
>
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:45:44 -0500, Renata wrote:
> Now, dontcha think educating children - yours, mine, theirs, etc. - is
> to everyone's benefit? You want little rugrats with nothing to do,
> running aorund causing trouble, growing up unskilled and unable to
> contribute down the road?
Sure, but you see some of particular religious persuasions sending off 8
or 12 of the rugrats to the public schools. Kinda makes you think a
factor in property tax should be a school age headcount over the average
of two kids - as a "fairness" factor. After all, we're all about doing
"fair shares".
-Doug
Roger McIlmoyle wrote:
> career prospects. The issue is the false sense that just because you have
> an undergraduate degree you some how rate an immediate professional well
> paying job.
I don't dispute that that is the case now. It hasn't always been that way,
however. I know a great many folks from my parents' generation who made
out quite well with nothing more than an undergraduate degree in basket
weaving.
Dad for instance. He makes substantially more than SWMBO and I put
together, all because he took one single class in COBOL in the early '70s.
Times have changed.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
CW wrote:
> Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in anthropology. He
> drives a truck for living. College counselors should tell their students
> what their job prospects are going to be in a particular field. Instead,
> they fill classes and keep teachers working.
Five years ago the counselors would have said IT and Web design was the growth
and high paying field of the next century and would have steered the new student
to the field.
Today these students are graduating. You know what their finding.
This is the reason I went to PIA and got the aviation degree and license. Not to
necessarily work on aircraft but to be employable. Someone always needs someone
to build or maintain something. An employer is hard pressed to NOT look at me
for a position.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)
"Joe Willmann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > CW wrote:
> >
> >> Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
> >> anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
> >> should tell their students what their job prospects are going to be
> >> in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep teachers
> >> working.
>
> I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
> talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
> debt. She owed about $35,000. Something like this - 20K for student
> loans, 7K for automobile and the rest on credit cards.
>
> So he asked her what she did. She is a waitress in a restraunt.
> Something like TGI Fridays or such.
>
> He asked about her student status. She graduated two years ealier with
> a BA in performing arts!
>
> You know, I understand the desire to go to school and study something
> "fun". But if you can't make a living at it, it isn't a carear it is a
> hobby. You have to pay for hobbies as you go.
Not always. Most of my working life I have made a pretty good living off my
hobbies. I have more unusual hobbies though. Machine work, drafting,
electronics.
>
> Borrowing 20K to get an education in performing arts should be against
> the law. Her parents aught to sue the school, the proffesors and the
> bank that loaned her the money.
I wouldn't go that far but I do think the counselor should have laid out the
facts about future employment in that field. I'm sure they didn't do that.
They are more concerned with filling classes than setting someone up to
succeed. Before someone jumps in and says it was her problem, she should
have known, there is a lot of difference in expecting someone to do
something for you and paying someone to do something for you. Your average
college kid doesn't know squat about the world. The counselor should have
some knowledge of market trends.
>
> Actually she aught to sue her parrents for letting her do such a stupid
> thing.
Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
> ... and at least when I was going through college in the late '70s,
> early 80s, the professors in those fields would tell the class that
> their goal should be the "joy of learning" or "to become a well-rounded
> and educated individual". Those of us in the engineering curriculum
> would simply nod, fulfill the course requirements, and move on, somehow
> knowing that there should have been more than a little bit of motivation
> to find something that would provide value for someone in the future as
> well.
That's the crime, at one time higher education was about learning. Now colleges
and universities are about getting jobs.
When the focus shifted one result was a major increase in graduates thinking
they learned everything they needed to learn in school. Usually it takes someone
with a little formal power, such as an employer, to break this thinking.
Unfortunately it's never completely broken. Try telling an engineer something
contrary to their book learning that you've learned from experience and personal
observation and unless you happen to hold an advanced degree they don't want to
believe you.
Another result was the teaching of the test and how to puke answers instead of
thinking. This is becoming rampant.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)
Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in anthropology. He
drives a truck for living. College counselors should tell their students
what their job prospects are going to be in a particular field. Instead,
they fill classes and keep teachers working.
"Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> That's a sore point with me as a language major. I have the "fluent in
> English and Spanish" down, but never any of the rest of the requirements
> for anything.
>
> I could pick apples or work in a greenhouse for minimum wage. That's what
> my degree is worth to me.
>
> Oh, well, and I can watch "El Mariachi" with the subtitles off. That was
> worth $20,000.
>
> --
> Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
>
Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> CW wrote:
>
>> Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
>> anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
>> should tell their students what their job prospects are going to be
>> in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep teachers
>> working.
I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
debt. She owed about $35,000. Something like this - 20K for student
loans, 7K for automobile and the rest on credit cards.
So he asked her what she did. She is a waitress in a restraunt.
Something like TGI Fridays or such.
He asked about her student status. She graduated two years ealier with
a BA in performing arts!
You know, I understand the desire to go to school and study something
"fun". But if you can't make a living at it, it isn't a carear it is a
hobby. You have to pay for hobbies as you go.
Borrowing 20K to get an education in performing arts should be against
the law. Her parents aught to sue the school, the proffesors and the
bank that loaned her the money.
Actually she aught to sue her parrents for letting her do such a stupid
thing.
"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Joe Willmann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> > CW wrote:
>> >
>> >> Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
>> >> anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
>> >> should tell their students what their job prospects are going to
>> >> be in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep
>> >> teachers working.
>>
>> I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
>> talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
<snip>
>> Actually she aught to sue her parrents for letting her do such a
>> stupid thing.
>
>
Actually I was joking about the sueing part. It is just part of our
culture. If we do something wrong/stupid/dangerous and get hut we want
to turn around and sue someone.
Renata <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Now, dontcha think educating children - yours, mine, theirs, etc. - is
> to everyone's benefit? You want little rugrats with nothing to do,
> running aorund causing trouble, growing up unskilled and unable to
> contribute down the road?
Now do you think what goes on in public schools today is education? And
what makes you think that going to school will make a difference. I see
the long term state of affairs pretty bleakly.
About 25 years ago I got into software development. It was, and still
is fun and exciting to be able to create new and exciting things. I
looked into the future and dreamed about eventually buying a large sail
boat and doing my work from there using satalite communication and
networking. What I didn't take into account was that if I could do my
work from a boat in the south Pacific why can't my work be done from
India? Why pay me $50.00 or more per hour when there are people in
India willing to do the work for $5.00 per hour? I guess I was a little
short sighted. What does this have to do with anything? Well I have
been unemployeed for 2 years now.
So what does my unemployement have to do with your kids getting an
education? Lots. Pick a carear for your kids, any one will do. Now
ask youself if that job could be outsourced. There are very few that
can't. Accountant? That can be done anywhere that has access to the
company books which are all kept on computers. How about payroll,
admin, management, legal, tax, scheduling, and the list goes on and on.
Just about the only jobs that can't be outsourced are those that
actually require a human presence. Waitress, cook, carpenter, plumber,
bricklayer, police, jobs like that.
I see a future in America when a HUGE portion of the jobs that now
support middle class America slowly, of not so slowly just goes away.
What happens then with the rest of the jobs that provide middle class
America? When all the accountants, book keepers and computer
programmers can no longer find those kinds of jobs they have to start
taking jobs as carpenters, framers, plumbers and waiters. What happens
to those wages when there is a glut of people that want those jobs? The
wages go way down.
So what happens? Middle class America just goes away. So whay does
that have to do with educating your children? Lots. Don't waste your
time or money. Let them play. They aren't going to be able to find
jobs when they grow up so why waste their time in school.
There are two primary political parties, Republicans and Democrats. The
Democrats would rather give me welfare check than a job and the
Republicans would rather give someone in India a job and make the price
of stock go up. Oh and what should I do? The software engineer with a
job. I should retrain into something other field.
So this week I am aplying for entry level carpenter. Two years ago I
made $110,000. This year I am hoping for $10.00 per hour.
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:25:29 -0500, RB <[email protected]> wrote:
>Looking at the ONLY posting for a s/w type on your web site I'd guess
>that when the qualifications include:
>
> "Preference will be given to candidates who possess a M.Sc. or Ph.D.
>in Astronomy with a thesis topic in the area of Aperture Synthesis or
>VLBI radio astronomy."
>
>and
>
>"Advanced or working knowledge of the following: aperture synthesis
>radio astronomy, data reduction algorithms and techniques, programming
>for scientific applications, Fourier imaging."
>
>make the eye of the needle pretty small. These don't describe the
>typical s/w engineer.
>
>There may be a few of those folks around but they may not be interested
>in re-locating to central NM at the price you're willing to pay.
>
These companies have long lists of requirements. I know they really
want someone young, but can't say that (I'm over 40). What's so
strange is that they want 5 years Oracle, 3 years C++, 3 years project
managment, 4 years Java, 2 years Unix scripting--I have all of these,
then they add "Must be fluent in English and Spanish." Others are
looking for a minority, I guess they can pay an Afro-American female
much less money, and she would be happy with it and the company will
make their quota. Plus, the days are long gone when a company will
help with relocation.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in anthropology. He
> drives a truck for living. College counselors should tell their students
> what their job prospects are going to be in a particular field. Instead,
> they fill classes and keep teachers working.
... and at least when I was going through college in the late '70s,
early 80s, the professors in those fields would tell the class that
their goal should be the "joy of learning" or "to become a well-rounded
and educated individual". Those of us in the engineering curriculum
would simply nod, fulfill the course requirements, and move on, somehow
knowing that there should have been more than a little bit of motivation
to find something that would provide value for someone in the future as
well.
> "Silvan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > That's a sore point with me as a language major. I have the "fluent in
> > English and Spanish" down, but never any of the rest of the requirements
> > for anything.
> >
> > I could pick apples or work in a greenhouse for minimum wage. That's what
> > my degree is worth to me.
> >
> > Oh, well, and I can watch "El Mariachi" with the subtitles off. That was
> > worth $20,000.
> >
> > --
> > Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
> > Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
> > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
> >
>
>
>
Phisherman wrote:
> then they add "Must be fluent in English and Spanish." Others are
That's a sore point with me as a language major. I have the "fluent in
English and Spanish" down, but never any of the rest of the requirements
for anything.
I could pick apples or work in a greenhouse for minimum wage. That's what
my degree is worth to me.
Oh, well, and I can watch "El Mariachi" with the subtitles off. That was
worth $20,000.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
It may not have hit your area yet but around here, the carpentry jobs are
being taken up by Mexicans. Illegal are preferred as they have no one to
bitch to about the lack of overtime pay, ect. The Bush alien import plan
should help this trend right along.
"Joe Willmann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Renata <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > Now, dontcha think educating children - yours, mine, theirs, etc. - is
> > to everyone's benefit? You want little rugrats with nothing to do,
> > running aorund causing trouble, growing up unskilled and unable to
> > contribute down the road?
>
> Now do you think what goes on in public schools today is education? And
> what makes you think that going to school will make a difference. I see
> the long term state of affairs pretty bleakly.
>
> About 25 years ago I got into software development. It was, and still
> is fun and exciting to be able to create new and exciting things. I
> looked into the future and dreamed about eventually buying a large sail
> boat and doing my work from there using satalite communication and
> networking. What I didn't take into account was that if I could do my
> work from a boat in the south Pacific why can't my work be done from
> India? Why pay me $50.00 or more per hour when there are people in
> India willing to do the work for $5.00 per hour? I guess I was a little
> short sighted. What does this have to do with anything? Well I have
> been unemployeed for 2 years now.
>
> So what does my unemployement have to do with your kids getting an
> education? Lots. Pick a carear for your kids, any one will do. Now
> ask youself if that job could be outsourced. There are very few that
> can't. Accountant? That can be done anywhere that has access to the
> company books which are all kept on computers. How about payroll,
> admin, management, legal, tax, scheduling, and the list goes on and on.
>
> Just about the only jobs that can't be outsourced are those that
> actually require a human presence. Waitress, cook, carpenter, plumber,
> bricklayer, police, jobs like that.
>
> I see a future in America when a HUGE portion of the jobs that now
> support middle class America slowly, of not so slowly just goes away.
> What happens then with the rest of the jobs that provide middle class
> America? When all the accountants, book keepers and computer
> programmers can no longer find those kinds of jobs they have to start
> taking jobs as carpenters, framers, plumbers and waiters. What happens
> to those wages when there is a glut of people that want those jobs? The
> wages go way down.
>
> So what happens? Middle class America just goes away. So whay does
> that have to do with educating your children? Lots. Don't waste your
> time or money. Let them play. They aren't going to be able to find
> jobs when they grow up so why waste their time in school.
>
> There are two primary political parties, Republicans and Democrats. The
> Democrats would rather give me welfare check than a job and the
> Republicans would rather give someone in India a job and make the price
> of stock go up. Oh and what should I do? The software engineer with a
> job. I should retrain into something other field.
>
> So this week I am aplying for entry level carpenter. Two years ago I
> made $110,000. This year I am hoping for $10.00 per hour.
CW wrote:
> Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in anthropology. He
> drives a truck for living. College counselors should tell their students
> what their job prospects are going to be in a particular field. Instead,
> they fill classes and keep teachers working.
Yeah, I do think there should be a lot more emphasis on "what are you going
to do after you graduate?"
I get some blame too though. I could have done better homework. I didn't
really start to think about what I was going to do to earn money in a
serious way until my fiancée's EPT turned purple, or blue, or whatever
color it was.
I did have a vague plan. I was going to go to grad school and become "a
professor or something."
Oh well. At least my kids can learn from my mistakes. My parents didn't
put a lot of emphasis on my major because they both got degrees in
psychology and wound up eventually getting really decent, completely
unrelated jobs "because we have college degrees."
The problem is that just doesn't work anymore. Bill the homeless guy has
three PhDs these days.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Now, dontcha think educating children - yours, mine, theirs, etc. - is
to everyone's benefit? You want little rugrats with nothing to do,
running aorund causing trouble, growing up unskilled and unable to
contribute down the road?
Renata
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 00:01:35 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
--snip--
> What the !@#$ are you talking about here? Let's see, those without
>children do subsidize those with children, or did you think people
>without children don't pay property taxes that pay to educate children?
>You really are saying that the government and others have first dibs on
>the money I earn to be distributed as they please, then whatever is left
>is mine.
>
--snip-
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:23:26 -0800, CW <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Joe Willmann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Silvan <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> > CW wrote:
>> >
>> >> Your not alone, Silvan. A friend of mine has a masters in
>> >> anthropology. He drives a truck for living. College counselors
>> >> should tell their students what their job prospects are going to be
>> >> in a particular field. Instead, they fill classes and keep teachers
>> >> working.
>>
>> I was listening to the radio a couple of days ago. There was a woman
>> talking to an advise guy. She had financial problems and was in real
>> debt. She owed about $35,000. Something like this - 20K for student
>> loans, 7K for automobile and the rest on credit cards.
>>
>> So he asked her what she did. She is a waitress in a restraunt.
>> Something like TGI Fridays or such.
>>
>> He asked about her student status. She graduated two years ealier with
>> a BA in performing arts!
>>
>> You know, I understand the desire to go to school and study something
>> "fun". But if you can't make a living at it, it isn't a carear it is a
>> hobby. You have to pay for hobbies as you go.
>
> Not always. Most of my working life I have made a pretty good living off
> my
> hobbies. I have more unusual hobbies though. Machine work, drafting,
> electronics.
>
>>
>> Borrowing 20K to get an education in performing arts should be against
>> the law. Her parents aught to sue the school, the proffesors and the
>> bank that loaned her the money.
>
> I wouldn't go that far but I do think the counselor should have laid out
> the
> facts about future employment in that field. I'm sure they didn't do
> that.
> They are more concerned with filling classes than setting someone up to
> succeed. Before someone jumps in and says it was her problem, she should
> have known, there is a lot of difference in expecting someone to do
> something for you and paying someone to do something for you. Your
> average
> college kid doesn't know squat about the world. The counselor should have
> some knowledge of market trends.
>
>>
>> Actually she aught to sue her parrents for letting her do such a stupid
>> thing.
>
>
University is rarely about learning a career, college is about learning a
career/trade. University is about learning how to think and be diverse. It
is generally irrelevant what you study unless you specialize, such as
engineering. Even then it's no sure fire way to end up working in the
chosen career field. Doctors, lawyers, most business professionals all
start with ANY undergraduate degree... even performing arts. After all,
what better way to start a career where you can absolutely say you know
how to present in front of a crowd with confidence. Sales anyone ? Once
you have your undergraduate degree, you have just begun. Then you either
embark on completing the process with a professional designation.... PEng,
DR, Lawyer, CA,etc... or you work hard to get an entry level job with
career prospects. The issue is the false sense that just because you have
an undergraduate degree you some how rate an immediate professional well
paying job.
The failing I see here is you friend with a degree in anthropology
obviously decided he was not interested in it or didn't want to put any
effort in it, believing he had apparently paid his dues and was therefore
due a great career. Driving a truck is choice made either because he
realized that's what he wants in life for one reason or another or it was
easier than anthropology which obviously would have meant other difficult
choices. Which after 6 years in higher education one would think would
have been realized without having to defer to a counselor who most likely
has less education or at most equivalent.
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
I knew what you meant. I should have indicated that.
"Joe Willmann" <[email protected]> wrote in message > Actually I was
joking about the sueing part. It is just part of our
> culture. If we do something wrong/stupid/dangerous and get hut we want
> to turn around and sue someone.
>
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> Yes, you'd amazed at the number of people that are stepping down from high
> paid positions as the economy changes from manufacturing to service
> oriented.
I wouldn't be amazed at all. I hear about it all the time. It makes my
prospects of getting out of trucking look that much more bleak too. I
guess going back for my CS degree is out. :(
>> people are willing to pay for. Trucking is that. I have job
>> security in spades, shovels and buckets.
>
> Recenly read about the shortage of drivers. There are considerations to
> lower the age for a CDL and allowing 18 year olds to drive under some
> circumstances.
They already can, intrastate. There has been talk of letting them go
interstate, but I haven't heard anything substantive. It's a bad idea
IMHO. I once saw a dumbass kid dump the clutch and drive her Honda Civic
into a video store, knocking down half of the shelves in the process.
Luckily it was early in the morning, and there were few customers in the
store. No one got hurt. She was maybe 17. Do we want 18-year-olds
driving tractor trailers? O_o
> That bring up another thought. Didn't you say you hauled furniture? Any
> of your stops make the stuff and have good scraps?
I do, but no. Most of the stuff we haul these days, any scraps that are
being made are staying in the Far East. The last American manufacturer we
buy from has reached a point where they throw away a scrap after it's
13/16th" thick and 3/4" long.
Every jig in my shop is built from furniture factory plywood, but that
source dried up a long time ago I'm afraid.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Brian Elfert wrote:
> I know everyone can't work for $20 to $30 an hour, but around $10 an hour
> is very much on the low end for a full time job. Who needs a 401k when
> they can't afford to put anything into it?
I agree and I agree, but it's hard to do better. I'm going through an "I
hate my job" thing, and I just got done looking through the want ads.
Since I don't have 40 years of administrative big business management
experience, and my Linux experience is useless because I'm not a kernel
hacker, that cuts out everything that pays better than $15 an hour. The
only jobs that pay in the $15 range are trucking related. Everything else
is in a sort of bell curve with minimum wage on the bottom, and $10 an hour
on top. Most of the jobs fall into the $7 range, but the curve is a little
heavier on the $5 end than the $10 end.
Not much choice at all, though there are about four dozen trucking jobs to
choose from. Three dozen of them pay better than the one I have, but I'd
have to live on the road. The other dozen pay less than what I already
make.
I guess it's time to be grateful I have a job, and stop worrying that I'm
wasting my education. Nobody's looking to hire anyone with an education in
anything other than business administration, and I can't imagine anything
more mind numbing.
Plus, I like it here. I have roots. I have a house. I'm not moving. In
today's economy, you can't make any money unless you're willing to chase
the job. Take a job in Some Yonder, and wait for them to move you to Some
Other Yonder.
Forced relocation sucks. I think it has a lot to do with today's culture
where nobody knows who his neighbors are, or cares.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:27:31 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Walker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up
>the
>> gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?
>>
>>
>
>What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
>do?
>
hate to burst your bubble here BUT they are and have been over the
past few years taking jobs from plummers, electritions, framers, trim
people, hardware installers, firemen, policemen, tile setters,
flooring installers, ect. ect. ect..........all forms of construction
are being performed by illegals and our manufacturing and textile jobs
are being moved overseas because of our gov. doing away with tariffs
and greedy execs seeing larger profit margins for themselves. oh BTW
lets not forget all the HIGH TECK jobs leaving for dirt cheep wages
too! sorry but they aint just mowing lawns and picking crops anymore.
skeez
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
> > owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
> > work you have ever seen. >
> > Brian Elfert
>
> Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
> were immigrants.
>
Actually, you can only say the American Indians were the first
immigrants.
> The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an immigrant.
> More examples available if needed.
> Ed
There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone
by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by
wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to
their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their
own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the
desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made
by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > says...
> > >
> > > "Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My
> friend
> > > > owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the
> shoddiest
> > > > work you have ever seen. >
> > > > Brian Elfert
> > >
> > > Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your
> forefathers
> > > were immigrants.
> > >
> >
> > Actually, you can only say the American Indians were the first
> > immigrants.
> >
> > > The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an
> immigrant.
> > > More examples available if needed.
> > > Ed
> >
> > There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone
> > by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by
> > wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to
> > their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their
> > own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
> > current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the
> > desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
> > languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
> > society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made
> > by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries.
>
> This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in school
> until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
> bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during the
> Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
> cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants, but
> by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely
> assimilated within the new culture.
As a 4'th generation descendant of German immigrants I know that the
first generation, while preserving their traditions and language at home
and within the private Lutheran schools they started, also worked to
learn the language of the land to which they had migrated.
> As for sending money home, historians now
> agree that somewhere around 20 percent of immigrants who came over during
> the 1880-1910 wave remigrated, that is, returned to the home country. And
> many immigrants sent money home, often to allow friends and family to
> migrate.
A major difference between sending money to help your relative migrate
and sending money to support your relatives in their country.
> Last, immigrants working at low-paying jobs is precisely the
> historical pattern, in part because they are the jobs that are least
> attractive to the natives. For one example, check the use of Chinese labor
> in building the transcontinental railroad in 1869-72
>
I never said or indicated otherwise.
> Yes, I know--you'll say "they are loafers, do shoddy work, and don't pay
> their way." This is only partly true, and only of individuals. We all know
> more than a few Americans who fit that image. Since the 1960s the old
> pattern of immigrants paying more more in taxes than they received in state
> benefits has been broken. However, the pattern of future generations
> assimilating is still the norm. (Obww)
>
You are attributing attitudes and comments to me that I never said nor
implied.
> The point? Most of what you have posted is the stereotypical reaction to
> immigration, with the usual false generalizations.
>
Your comment above regarding the comment that immigrants are no longer
net producers but are now net consumers of other peoples' money belies
what you just said here.
and what
> Bob Schmall
>
>
>
Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<bvskoo$vttg1$1@ID-SNIP
> And I repeat my previous assertion that the major problem we face is
> preserving our independence. How do you fight a war if all your
> steel/oil/electronics is imported from a country that becomes, or favors,
> your enemy?
You know, I hear this periodically as an argument in this culture war.
Whether any or all other arguments against imports are valid or not I
don't know, but I find this one rather silly.
What kind of a war can you imagine that would have all the
manufacturering countries against us and be so protracted in actual
battle that we use up all of our tanks, airplanes and guns, yet we
don't call an end to it by using the nukes?
I find it difficult to imagine an all-out, protracted, conventional
battlefield war like WWII occuring. The type of serious attacks and
battles that would require would rapidly escalate to where one side or
the other would threaten nukes and some negotiated stand-off would
happen (or the nukes would actually be used).
I think you are planning the last war - which often gets nations in
trouble.
Dave Hall
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> This guy must have played the market very well or is living on virtually
> nothing if he has put away $100,000 working at $9/hr. He is probably the
> exception and not the norm for $9/hr workers.
Maybe, but he is if fact worth that much. Some of the money comes from
profit sharing and some comes from the 50% matching funds.
>
> I'm sure the competition is paying the same. You were complaining you
> can't find workers. Paying $9 a hour probably explains most of it right
> there.
It is a part ofit, but I have a difficult time getting workers at higher
wages at times. Put an ad in the paper and get two respones. Employment in
this area is not too bad overall. People with skills are able to use them.
Sure, they may make $15, $20 or $30 an h our, but they h ave the skills and
knowledge to earn it. I'm not trying to hire bankers or machinist to do
unskilled jobs. My point was that there is a need for people to fill those
spots. The locals are over qualified.
Ed
>
>
"Frank Ketchum" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Pentair has hired Goldman Sachs to sell its tool division. Brand names
> > include Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Air Power, and Oldham Saw.
> >
> > Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins
vs
> > 13% for their water systems.
> >
> > I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
> > Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw
production
> > overseas to increase margins.
> >
>
> Man that sucks. I hate to see changes coming like this since I really
like
> Delta and Porter Cable products. On the positive side, they may be able
to
> offer the same quality of tools at a lower price and still get a better
> margin for themselves with oversees production.
>
> Frank
Pigs might fly
Jon~
"Walker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up
the
> gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?
>
>
What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
do?
Year 0. I'd even settle for 0.2 but no less precise than that.
"Everett M. Greene" <[email protected]> wrote in message > How far
back do we want to trace to determine ancestry?
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (SteveC1280) writes:
>
> We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
> car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
> overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
>
Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
Frank
On 05 Feb 2004 16:23:24 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Bob Schmall" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in school
>>until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
>>bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during the
>>Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
>>cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants, but
>>by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely
>>assimilated within the new culture.As for sending money home, historians now
>
>A lot of the immigrants coming into the USA now are doing so illegally.
>
>The immigrants in the 1800s came here legally at least.
>
>Brian Elfert
and they were willing to learn the language. skeez
Silvan wrote:
> I guess it's time to be grateful I have a job, and stop worrying that
> I'm wasting my education. Nobody's looking to hire anyone with an
> education in anything other than business administration, and I can't
> imagine anything more mind numbing.
I know people in the Washington DC area who have devoted their entire
working lives to national and international standards development.
Important but IMO jam-a-chisel-in-your-leg-to-stay-awake boring.
-- Mark
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I have no idea what the answer is, but I don't think looking to
> government to solve the problem is the answer.
Agreed, but it would be nice if they would stop making the problem worse.
Frank
Yes, everyone knows what you mean.
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:4021662c$0$41294>
> I think everyone knows what I meant. I guess I should have said illegal
> immigrants or recent immigrants.
>
> Brian Elfert
If China and Japan stop buying our debt, we will be worst off than what you
describe. Unfortunately right now they need us as bad as we need them but
the music will eventually stop. The thing we should pray for is to have the
China bubble to burst like our dot.com one did a few years ago. Don't blame
either country, the real villains are corporate America and the buffoons
that run it.
"RB" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
> colony of Asia. Or are we already?
>
> RB
>
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> "Walker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up
> the
> > gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?
> >
> >
>
> What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
> do?
>
>
>
Around here, about half of the building framers appear to be from south
of the border. On the bright side, we have a steady supply of taco
trucks for a tasty lunch.
Silvan wrote:
> The only jobs that pay in the $15 range are trucking
> related. Everything else is in a sort of bell curve with minimum
> wage on the bottom, and $10 an hour on top. Most of the jobs fall
> into the $7 range, but the curve is a little heavier on the $5 end
> than the $10 end.
Most jobs? Or most jobs you are qualified for? Or most jobs you'd
consider? If you have some training in the right trade or profession, you
can make much more. Auto mechanics, welder, nurses, respiratory therapists,
state police, all make much more than $15. Your problem is that you'd have
to take a year or two to learn what is needed in these careers. Not easily
done when trying to support a family.
>
> Plus, I like it here. I have roots. I have a house. I'm not
> moving. In today's economy, you can't make any money unless you're
> willing to chase the job. Take a job in Some Yonder, and wait for
> them to move you to Some Other Yonder.
>
> Forced relocation sucks. I think it has a lot to do with today's
> culture where nobody knows who his neighbors are, or cares.
I relocated once. Glad I did, but don't ever want to do it again. I do know
people that have been Nomads for their entire working career, moving every
two or three years. Not for me. It does limit your choices for employment
though. .
--
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
"Unisaw A100" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm wondering, Nahmie sponsored by Jet?
>
> UA100
bingo.
Pentair made the news in Milwaukee today by buying a business owned by our
local utility, where my wife works. Let's see--how many degrees of
separation is that between me and my Unisaw?
Bob
>On the positive side, they may be able to
offer the same quality of tools at a lower price and still get a better
margin for themselves with oversees production.
Ya true and the hell with the folks working the Delta PC production lines,
they never bought what you had to sell anyway. (I really should throw in a
smiley face with my comment, but this is all too serious.)
--
Rumpty
Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Maybe the best thing for government to do is stay out of
business all together.
Politicians are already screaming for a raise of minimum wage to over
$7.00/hr. For what christsakes!? Because some lame idiot was too busy
smoking dope and beating the other kids for lunch money to stay in
school to be educated!? So now he has to live of min. wage or welfare?
Then taxes are raised which drives up the costs of businesses or wages are
forced to be increased for the guy who sweeps the floor, takes out the
trash,
etc... and the overhead for businesses go up. Government (legislative and
judicial)
always screws things up because they are all a bunch of lawyers instead of
business men.
Bill Gates produces a better more users friendly product and everyone
sues him because he's got a "monopoly". No they sue him because he's
got money and it is politically correct to demonize him.
A guy invents a better way to copy papers. Nobody likes his idea and
tells him to hit the road (i.e. Eastman Kodak). So what does he do? He
hocks
everything he has to start a garage business to produce machines that use
the process of xerography ( 99.999% of all copiers, faxes, laser printers
today use this process)
and XEROX is born and becomes big and successful. So then all those
companies
that rejected him end up filing a law suit against XEROX and win to get a
release on his patent and boom the Japanese kills us on the world market
with
copier and printer technology.
Sue the Tobacco companies because people are too stupid to read the labels
and too stupid to be responsible for their own actions. Demonize them
because they
are successful, and get a court order to steal their money. Another
successful
business on its way down.
No if any politician really wants to support the economy, then get
government
the hell out and let businessman do their jobs. Create successful companies
that produce our jobs. So we can produce products that are both good
quality
at a good price.
"SteveC1280" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
> candidates push for a buy American movement.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.
"CW" <[email protected]> writes:
>Year 0. I'd even settle for 0.2 but no less precise than that.
>"Everett M. Greene" <[email protected]> wrote in message > How far
>back do we want to trace to determine ancestry?
>
>
Unfortunately, CW, there is no year 0. 2BC->1BC->1AD->2AD ad infinitum.
scott
>Unfortunately, CW, there is no year 0. 2BC->1BC->1AD->2AD ad infinitum.
>
>scott
Now at first I was assuming that he was talking shortly after the "big bang" so
that the relatives were (I guess) just some form of energy. But then I realized
he said "year" so since we use that term to describe time based on the earth
going around the sun, he must have been talking about when that dust cloud
first started coming together and circling that new star. I guess we were
cosmic dust particles at that point. Of course he could be a really
conservative Jew and be talking about 6,000 years ago or so - but no, he
doesn't seem too religious. I don't know, but my last immigant ancestor that I
am aware of came here from England around 1768 - although there are a couple of
gray areas in the mid 1800's that could have been some newbies. And yes, there
are a couple that apparently immigrated during the ice ages since I am
supposedly about 18% "native" american.
Dave Hall
If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up the
gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?
"Lawrence A. Ramsey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If Bush REALLY wanted to help the economy, he would ONLY give us a tax
> cut when we submit PROOF that we bought that much in American Made
> products. Not "assembled" but MADE in the USA.
> That would help. I have been looking for a job for almost a year. I am
> a college graduate and am having to compete with people who have
> written grants and published for $22,000 a year jobs. When they show
> up (rarely). That's a "good" economy? Of course, this is Arkansas.
>
>
>
> On 04 Feb 2004 14:41:04 GMT, [email protected] (SteveC1280)
> wrote:
>
> >More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
> >candidates push for a buy American movement.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.
>
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:12:01 -0700, CW wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):
> So, that want ad you wrote in fine print on the bathroom wall didn't bring
> any applicants, right? Or maybe it was that $10.00 per day pay rate.
> "BruceR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
Heh! :^)
Most of the resumes we get from people who consider themselves "programmers"
say either they can "program" Windows or can "program" the internet....
-Bruce
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:33:17 -0700, Mark Jerde wrote
(in message <[email protected]>):
> BruceR wrote:
>> Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
>> here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
>> the positions with foreigners with visas.
>>
>> -Bruce
>>
>> http://www.nrao.edu
>
> Where is "here"? Charlottesville VA, Green Bank WV, Socorro NM, Tucson AZ,
> or somewhere else?
>
> -- Mark
>
>
We have two here in Socorro, had three at one time (programming staff of 6)
-Bruce
They have a saying where I work, "you own your own employability". I've
also seen quite a few people laid off over the years but somehow the fit
survive. That is, the ones that I considered sharp land on their feed and
the majority of the others, well, deserved what they got. I too am a
software engineer but have to admit that it's highly overrated, any idiot
can do this shit but only a few of us have a clue.
As for out sourcing, we have been sending quite a few jobs to China and
India. And I have to admit the Indians work like dogs for dirt and many are
sharp. The Chinese on the other hand work like dogs for dirt J They IMHO
are over-educated idiots but they get paid 1/10 or less that myself and it
only takes 3 or 4 of them to keep up with me, you do the math. There is no
loyalty when it comes to money and we all reap what we sow. Something to
think about next time you drive your Tyodie over to Walmart to buy some
cheap chink shit because "you can't beat the prices". That was taken form
an interview I saw of laid off Walmart workers complaining about being
unemployed and jobs and goods from overseas. When asked if they still
shopped there they said "well yah, you can't beat the prices".
It's all driven by the consumer; you want high wages but cheap shit. So way
does anybody owe you anything and why should they be "loyal" to you?
I'm just glad that I'll probably, with luck, reach a comfortable retirement
before we have completely destroyed this wonderful country and it's economy.
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
That's it, make the world change!
How dare they try to tell you what to do - don't they know it's your job to
tell them?
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
the positions with foreigners with visas.
-Bruce
http://www.nrao.edu
>
> "Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
>>should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
>>for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
>>8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
>>and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
>>situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
>>professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
>
>
>
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Looking at the ONLY posting for a s/w type on your web site I'd guess
that when the qualifications include:
"Preference will be given to candidates who possess a M.Sc. or Ph.D.
in Astronomy with a thesis topic in the area of Aperture Synthesis or
VLBI radio astronomy."
and
"Advanced or working knowledge of the following: aperture synthesis
radio astronomy, data reduction algorithms and techniques, programming
for scientific applications, Fourier imaging."
make the eye of the needle pretty small. These don't describe the
typical s/w engineer.
There may be a few of those folks around but they may not be interested
in re-locating to central NM at the price you're willing to pay.
RB
BruceR wrote:
> Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
> here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
> the positions with foreigners with visas.
>
> -Bruce
>
> http://www.nrao.edu
>
>
>>
>> "Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
>>> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
>>> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
>>> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
>>> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
>>> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
>>> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:50:48 -0500, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:
I have been following this thread and would like your comment and
suggestions how to prepare your daughter for her future career. Let
say she will be attending high school this Fall. Should she targets
for an engineering, Social study, IT, CPA, Medical or others career?
Thanks
>Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>> Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but
>> living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for
>> some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to
>> pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to
>> you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money,
>> only the increase in some investment account.
>
>Yes and no. There's more to the story than just how much I could make in my
>industry. I have a nice niche job and what, for the industry, is an
>absolutely obscene amount of home time. I can't earn more than this
>without giving up another 30-40 hours a week, and I'd rather be poor and
>have time to play in my shop and do stuff with my kids.
>
>So, in the short term, I have no plans to raise my income. In the longer
>term, my useful income is going to be going up quite dramatically once some
>long-running obligations are dealt with. We're going to do without it just
>like we have been for all these years, and that should build cash reserves
>very quickly indeed.
>
>From there, I don't know. We'll figure it out when we actually get there.
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-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> > On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:50:48 -0500, Silvan
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I have been following this thread and would like your comment and
> > suggestions how to prepare your daughter for her future career. Let
> > say she will be attending high school this Fall. Should she targets
> > for an engineering, Social study, IT, CPA, Medical or others career?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
>
> My opinion only. What does she enjoy? What does she absolutely not
> like? That has to be considered in her decision as well as
> employability -- it won't do any good to have a medical degree if she
> does not (to the point of despise) working with biological organisms.
>
> That said, considerations to take into account:
> 1. Medical -- despite all of the outsourcing going on, the people in
> this country are going to get sick and need care. In addition, the
> population (on average, due to the baby boom) is also aging, so more
> medical professionals will be needed for quite some time.
> 2. Engineering: The primary job of a good engineering school is to
> teach students to think and solve problems. As a person with an EE
> degree, I find myself doing work in numerous fields. However, one must
> not limit oneself to thinking that your career will be spent solely
> designing or doing "turn the crank" engineering work -- that, at least
> from what I have seen, tends to limit career opportunities and also in
> the extreme case, I've seen people who insisted on remaining "circuit
> designers" laid off because that was all they knew, their skills did not
> keep up with technology, and they were not competitive with new-hires.
> This does not imply that engineers have to move into management to
> continue career growth, but leadership in a technical sense is a
> requirement for continued career growth.
> 3. IT: I don't know -- you've seen the discussions regarding outsourcing
> of IT support. IT management is probably a potential employment source
> and there are people who will absolutely have to be in this country to
> do some support functions, but this will probably not be a growth
> opportunity for a while.
> 4. A&S degrees (Social studies, etc.) I cannot really comment one way or
> another on this subject -- I just don't have any good data points.
You should add teaching to the list. I know, many have heard the Union
propaganda that teachers don't make enough, but that is (in many
areas) an outdated view. In Pennsylvania (which is rated 14th in
teacher salaries) the average teacher salary is $59,000 and the
average work year is 187 days. In western Pennsylvania the starting
salary with a BS or BA is around $34,000 with substantial raises until
the 15th to 19th year (depending on the local district) when you hit
an average of $78,000. This is in addition to a great retirement
package, medical and other benefits as well as about the most job
security you can have. Then consider the fact that in the US we bulked
up on teachers in 1968 to 1976 as the bulk of the original baby boom
passed through (and the public finally accepted hiring enough teachers
to support all the kids). These folks have been hitting retirement and
will continue to do so for a number of years causing a shortage.
Combined with the 3rd wave as baby boomers kids are now starting to
have kids and the demand for small class sizes (PA's average teacher
to student ratio is now 1 to 16)and the demand for teachers should
continue for a number of years. Unfortunately, like many such "high
demand" careers, there is always the possibility that by the time
someone who is currently in high school gets through college the
demand may have been satiated (i.e. like all those poor kids who
finished 4 years of college with an EE degree in the last year or
two).
Dave Hall
Phisherman wrote:
> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
Hmm. Ok, but that doesn't sound like much of a plan. I developed
software for over 40 years (see
http://www.iedu.com/mrd/mrd_self.html and
http://www.iedu.com/mrd/philips.txt for an addendum) and opted
not to compete with Indian labor rates. We both need to do
/something/ productive with our lives!
I've always loved woodworking; and I've had an increasing
interest in alternative energy technologies since the early 70's
so I decided to produce solar heating panels (browse around at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto) and fill in with contract CNC work
for local cabinet shops (who don't have terribly strong
software/computer skills) to keep my navel separated from my
backbone. I don't know if the plan is a good one or not - but I
think it'll work better than watching my saving be eaten up by
the inflation that the Bush administration set us all up to
experience over the next ten years.
--
Morris Dovey
West Des Moines, Iowa USA
C links at http://www.iedu.com/c
Read my lips: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
While I was a pretty much in the same boat as you. I chose to retire and
get out while the getting out was good back in 1995. I was in the
Automotive profession for 22 years. I has always been said that the
Automotive profession is a young mans profession. I always thought you
needed to be young to be able to put up with the problems that arise in the
Automotive industry. Having been a service sales manager at a large GM
dealership, making excuses for the quality problems of the American built
car to your customer makes you old quick. I finally realized that a young
mans profession is one that a young man with out a family or obligations
can do pretty good in. Fortunately I worked the automotive system and got
my rewards. I chose to retire not having to work any more at 40. 2 years
later I started my own business and while my profits are there every year,
they come no where near what I was making before retiring. While you hate
Bush for telling you that the solution is to change professions, I did not
have to wait for him to tell me this. I saw the writing on the wall.
"BruceR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
> here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
> the positions with foreigners with visas.
>
> -Bruce
>
> http://www.nrao.edu
>
Those job descriptions (2) look a lot more like career astronomers than
computer
programmers to me... Can't say as that indicates a general indication of a
shortage
of computer programmers.
"Candidates must possess knowledge of experimental astronomy, especially
interferometry,
or sufficient math and physics to quickly learn, at a detailed level, the
instrumental aspects
of the EVLA radio telescope..."
Phisherman <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
Well I am an unemployeed software engineer. Two years since I was laid
off. I have had 9 weeks of work during that time. Luckily my wife is
well employeed.
Two years ago I made $110K. I would gladly work for half today. I
woul;d change my vote to if I thought it would make a difference.
Remember it was Clinton that signed NAFTA.
It isn't like I make great buggy whips. There is still a demand for
what I do. Unfortunately I think it is the drive for quarterly profits
that is the biggest cause of the problem. The thing with outsourcing is
it is a short sighted solution. Just like chasing quartly profit. The
place I used to work was a high tech company that makes electronics.
The ideas that turn into products come from people in the company. Most
of them come from the engineers, not marketing. What happens when all
of the engineering is outsourced? How thinks up, "if this works and I
make this change then we can sell this to another market"? Nobody.
That's who.
The company I used to work for was divided up something like this.
10% Admin (like secretaries, book keepers, marketing, support etc.)
10% Management
40% Manufacturing
40% Engineering
How does it look today?
2% Manufacturing
30% Engineering
20% Management
48% Admin
How do the actual numbers look?
Before
2000 engineers, 2000 Manufacturing, 500 Admin and 500 Management for a
total of 5000 people.
Now it has downsized by about 20% for a total of 4000 of which 80 are
manufacturing, 1200 engineers, 800 Managers and 1920 admin and support.
The company grew the marketing, and sales while cutting engineering and
manufacturing. Then naturally because the more work is out sourced they
need more managers to handle the out sourced engineering.
The numbers are estimates.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 03:50:48 -0500, Silvan
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I have been following this thread and would like your comment and
> suggestions how to prepare your daughter for her future career. Let
> say she will be attending high school this Fall. Should she targets
> for an engineering, Social study, IT, CPA, Medical or others career?
>
> Thanks
>
My opinion only. What does she enjoy? What does she absolutely not
like? That has to be considered in her decision as well as
employability -- it won't do any good to have a medical degree if she
does not (to the point of despise) working with biological organisms.
That said, considerations to take into account:
1. Medical -- despite all of the outsourcing going on, the people in
this country are going to get sick and need care. In addition, the
population (on average, due to the baby boom) is also aging, so more
medical professionals will be needed for quite some time.
2. Engineering: The primary job of a good engineering school is to
teach students to think and solve problems. As a person with an EE
degree, I find myself doing work in numerous fields. However, one must
not limit oneself to thinking that your career will be spent solely
designing or doing "turn the crank" engineering work -- that, at least
from what I have seen, tends to limit career opportunities and also in
the extreme case, I've seen people who insisted on remaining "circuit
designers" laid off because that was all they knew, their skills did not
keep up with technology, and they were not competitive with new-hires.
This does not imply that engineers have to move into management to
continue career growth, but leadership in a technical sense is a
requirement for continued career growth.
3. IT: I don't know -- you've seen the discussions regarding outsourcing
of IT support. IT management is probably a potential employment source
and there are people who will absolutely have to be in this country to
do some support functions, but this will probably not be a growth
opportunity for a while.
4. A&S degrees (Social studies, etc.) I cannot really comment one way or
another on this subject -- I just don't have any good data points.
>
> >Mark & Juanita wrote:
> >
> >> Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but
> >> living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for
> >> some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to
> >> pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to
> >> you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money,
> >> only the increase in some investment account.
> >
> >Yes and no. There's more to the story than just how much I could make in my
> >industry. I have a nice niche job and what, for the industry, is an
> >absolutely obscene amount of home time. I can't earn more than this
> >without giving up another 30-40 hours a week, and I'd rather be poor and
> >have time to play in my shop and do stuff with my kids.
> >
> >So, in the short term, I have no plans to raise my income. In the longer
> >term, my useful income is going to be going up quite dramatically once some
> >long-running obligations are dealt with. We're going to do without it just
> >like we have been for all these years, and that should build cash reserves
> >very quickly indeed.
> >
> >From there, I don't know. We'll figure it out when we actually get there.
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
>
but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change professions."
Because you quoted that remark, can you lead me to where I can find where or
when he said that?
I've never heard and I'd like to know for sure.
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
BruceR wrote:
> Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
> here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
> the positions with foreigners with visas.
>
> -Bruce
>
> http://www.nrao.edu
Where is "here"? Charlottesville VA, Green Bank WV, Socorro NM, Tucson AZ,
or somewhere else?
-- Mark
"Bruce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>can "program" the internet....
>
You actually got a resume from Al Gore?
"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
So therefore it is YOUR choice to be unemployed at your profession that to
change careers. WTF does Bush have to do with it all?
My first choices for a profession were: 1) Pope 2) Queen of England. Both
jobs were filled so I became a manger instead. Do you think I should have
waited for an opening? You can't make much money selling things people just
don't want or need no matter how good we think they are. Basic fact of
capitalism.
Sorry, but when I hear people bitch that "I want to be a (fill in chose
profession) but it does not pay enough to make a living." I don't fee a tiny
bit sorry for them. Do something people are willing to pay for.
Ed
Ed Pawlowski writes:
>My first choices for a profession were: 1) Pope 2) Queen of England. Both
>jobs were filled so I became a manger instead.
Didja bring your dog with you?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
My first choices: I wanted to be the Saint; I wanted to be retired.
Never was ANY kind of saint and I'm of retirement age and wouldn't retire even
if I could affod it.
Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
So, that want ad you wrote in fine print on the bathroom wall didn't bring
any applicants, right? Or maybe it was that $10.00 per day pay rate.
"BruceR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Gee, We have been hell bent on trying to hire _any_ software engineers
> here for the past few years. Noone wants to work so we end up filling
> the positions with foreigners with visas.
>
> -Bruce
>
> http://www.nrao.edu
>
>
> >
> > "Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
> >>should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
> >>for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
> >>8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
> >>and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
> >>situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
> >>professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
BruceR <[email protected]> writes:
>Brian Elfert wrote:
>> RB <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>
>>>It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
>>>colony of Asia. Or are we already?
>>
>>
>> I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
>> exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.
>>
>> It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
>> household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
>> labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
>> buy.
>>
>> There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
>> right here in the USA.
>
>I thought they had large sections of fuselage sub contracted out to China?
>
Assembled in America. Something better than 50% of the 777 and
probably more like 65% of the 7E7 are/will be built by foreign
contractors (Japan and Europe being the largest).
scott
"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<bvskoo$vttg1$1@ID-SNIP
> > > And I repeat my previous assertion that the major problem we face is
> > > preserving our independence. How do you fight a war if all your
> > > steel/oil/electronics is imported from a country that becomes, or
favors,
> > > your enemy?
> >
> > What kind of a war can you imagine that would have all the
> > manufacturering countries against us and be so protracted in actual
> > battle that we use up all of our tanks, airplanes and guns, yet we
> > don't call an end to it by using the nukes?
> >
> Ouch! So it's no problem 'cause we could always nuke 'em? Great
> solution!
>
Lotsa precise machine work used in makin' them nukes...
In article <1g8re4t.1nrmuk91g0o6shN%[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > "you owe me" seems to be the low
> > > > skilled low educated american's mantra.
> > >
> > > Uh, the tax code is replete with welfare programs that require higher
> > > levels of income to qualify.
> > >
> > > Even in the middle it is a virtual non-stop "you owe me."
> > >
> > > I'm sure if this off topic discussion went on and you were to reveal
> > > your deductions and examined the services you received, your argument
> > > would be that they were owed to you.
> > >
> >
> > This attitude that somehow deductions, i.e. allowing people to keep a
> > little more of the money *they* have earned somehow equates to welfare,
> > the receipt of *other* peoples' money is more than a bit disturbing and
> > quite irritating.
>
> You want services for nothing? When you eat a meal at a restaurant, do
> you pay for it or do you say that you have paid enough money for meals
> lately and that you don't feel like paying? Or perhaps you want your
> group to not pay as much as others because you're special or powerful?
>
Did I say that people should be paying *no* taxes? Your analogy is
complete non-sequitor.
> > It bespeaks an attitude that the money is the
> > government's first, and mine second.
>
> What? You bespeak talk radio twaddle.
>
So you do believe that the government should decide what of your
income you get to keep.
> Welfare is unearned income and you can call them subsidies, deductions,
> exclusions, shelters, credits or whatever you want but they are the
> same. Sorry if that isn't PC.
>
How is letting me keep income *I* have earned somehow "unearned
income"? I guess it's unearned by those who aren't getting a larger
share of my income.
> > It indicates that I should be
> > grateful for what the government lets me take home after it (the
> > government) has decided how much of my time is owed it first.
>
> Yeah, I suppose you believe that people without homes should subsidize
> those with and that people without children should subsidize those with,
> etc., etc. ad infinitum. You can play word games, but what it comes down
> to is you want some one else to pay for your share.
>
What the !@#$ are you talking about here? Let's see, those without
children do subsidize those with children, or did you think people
without children don't pay property taxes that pay to educate children?
You really are saying that the government and others have first dibs on
the money I earn to be distributed as they please, then whatever is left
is mine.
> Lo and behold, your indignation is just restated "you owe me." The
> fellow who made that statement ascribed it to low skilled, low education
> Americans. Does that accurately describe you?
>
No, my indignation is with your attitude that *I* owe you. And if
perchance I spend my money in some way that allows a deduction, this is
somehow wrong in your eyes, somebody else is somehow "subsidizing" me.
Your attitude is equivalent to the idea that because I am not earning
$1M per year, this means I am subsidizing my company, rather than
knowing what I am going to earn and setting my spending accordingly.
"Walker" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up the
> gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?
>
>
>
>
>
> "Lawrence A. Ramsey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > If Bush REALLY wanted to help the economy, he would ONLY give us a tax
> > cut when we submit PROOF that we bought that much in American Made
> > products. Not "assembled" but MADE in the USA.
> > That would help. I have been looking for a job for almost a year. I am
> > a college graduate and am having to compete with people who have
> > written grants and published for $22,000 a year jobs. When they show
> > up (rarely). That's a "good" economy? Of course, this is Arkansas.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 04 Feb 2004 14:41:04 GMT, [email protected] (SteveC1280)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >More jobs heading over seas. I'd like to see one of these presidential
> > >candidates push for a buy American movement.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >Remove the 'remove' in my address to e:mail me.
> >
A better solution would be the Sales Tax only system.. Then you could
choose how to pay your taxes, or not to. I have been involved in the
creation of many "off-shore" positions (I.T.) to Montreal. The main
reason my company did it was that Wall Street expects it to happen now
or the company doesn't look like they are in control of their labor
costs. It has nothing to do with legalizing foreign labor. It has
everything to do with stock price. I guess pretty soon, I'll be going
over the wall to Mexico looking for a job.
Greg
In article <[email protected]>,
Lawrence A. Ramsey <[email protected]> wrote:
>Does this mean there may be more Indians than Chiefs? Unbelieveable.
Nah. Never happen.
Major League Baseball mandates a smaller team roster than what the NFL allows.
*guffaw*
>
>
>
>On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:03:50 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> [email protected] (SteveC1280) writes:
>>>
>>> We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
>>> car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
>>> overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
>>>
>>
>>Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
>>say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
>>implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
>>and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
>>really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
>>Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
>>
>>Frank
>>
>
Don't forget the USA 14" Bandsaw. I was thinking of eventually
selling my Jet and buying that one, since they take the same blades
and my Jet has broken down and doesn't seem as well built.
Joe
>
> Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins vs
> 13% for their water systems.
>
> I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
> Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw production
> overseas to increase margins.
>
> Brian Elfert
I guess the point I was trying to make is that if people are forced to
choose one product over another, they will resent it. Build a better
product at a competitive price and you will not need the government to
heavily tax items that we want to buy.
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >I believe that has already happened... Import automobiles have a heavy
tax
> >burden that brings the prices more in line with the American built cars.
>
> Even if there is a tax burden, Korean built cars are still less expensive
> than USA built cars, at least on the low end.
>
> Brian Elfert
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:03:50 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] (SteveC1280) writes:
>>
>> We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
>> car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
>> overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
>>
>
>Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
>say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
>implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
>and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
>really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
>Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
>
>Frank
>
they wont worry bout it till its thier jobs that are lost and they
have to downsize that great big high dollar house they bought. does
anyone realy think they will be able to afford to live here in the
style they have become accustomed to on the wages that are paid for
services????? i think not.
skeez
Does this mean there may be more Indians than Chiefs? Unbelieveable.
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 16:03:50 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] (SteveC1280) writes:
>>
>> We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
>> car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
>> overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
>>
>
>Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
>say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
>implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
>and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
>really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
>Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
>
>Frank
>
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:54:49 GMT, "Jim Bailey"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Brian, as a professional programmer I will echo your sentiments. Things
>I've made my living on the past 25 years are now being done in India. If
>you'd have told me back then that I was making a bad career choice, I'd have
>ask you what planet you're from.
>
>Back on topic - I like Wes's idea a few posts back. Isn't there at least a
>couple of employee owned airlines that are doing pretty well? Why not a
>tool company ?
>
>jim bailey
>
>"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Frank Ketchum" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>> In another decade or so, we won't have any IT jobs left in the USA.
>> Everything will be farmed out to India. With the Internet, all the
>> servers will get moved to India. The only computers left in the USA will
>> be desktops that are maintained by a very small workforce.
>>
>> I fully expect to be out of a job in 5 to 10 years as server
>> administration gets farmed out overseas to save money.
>>
>> Brian Elfert
>>
>>
>
i will second that! i am not in the IT feild. I am in construction so
its different. my job is not going overseas but all the imigrants are
taking the construction jobs now because they are willing to work
cheap. wages are dropping because of this but the cost of living is
not dropping is it? i dont pretend to have the answers but at this
rate WE will be the poor country and the poor countries will be the
rich ones. think about it.
skeez
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > [email protected] (SteveC1280) writes:
> >
> > We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
> > car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
> > overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
> >
>
Electricians and plumbers are doing OK :-).
> Even though manufacturing is leaving this country at an alarming rate, some
> say not to worry since the services sector is growing so fast. The
> implication is that the GDP can remain at the same level even though more
> and more manufacturing is lost. This kind of thinking troubles me. Do we
> really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing anything?
> Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
>
That's not the problem. The problem is our growing dependency on the
rest of the world. It's hard to stay independent when your
tank/jeep/halftrack/etc engines are all made elsewhere, just to pick an
example.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> BUY MADE IN USA!
>
HOW?
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> I'm not sure how much of this you can blame on government vs. behavior
> patterns of our citizenry. Protectionism never works -- looking back at
> the luddites and others who opposed the industrial revolution or looking
> at the quality of goods produced in countries with protected industries
> shows that such behaviors only have short-term benefits and long-term
> detriments.
>
Take another look. The Luddites were not protectionists per se, they
were anti-technology. As were those who opposed th4 industrial
revolution.
And the reason that protected industries tend to produce shoddy goods is
that they're not subject to competition within their own country, not
because of protection against foreign goods. Look at our auto industry.
When GM and Ford and Chrysler controlled the market, they all went
downhill because they cooperated more than they competed. And we've all
heard endless stories about price-fixing in a lot of industries.
So saying that protectionism doesn't work is somewhat akin to
Chesterton's famous quote "Christianity has not been tried and found
wanting, it's still wanting to be tried." :-).
And I repeat my previous assertion that the major problem we face is
preserving our independence. How do you fight a war if all your
steel/oil/electronics is imported from a country that becomes, or favors,
your enemy?
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Actually, you can only say the American Indians were the first
> immigrants.
>
Maybe. Look up Kennewick man. Boy do the Indians want to get him
reburied without further examination.
I once knew 3 process control engineers from Ghana. I told them they
were the only folks I'd ever met who were NOT immigrants :-).
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
Brian Elfert wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
>We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
>car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
>overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
>
>Brian Elfert
>
I must be heading in the right direction then. I am an auto AND truck
mechanic!
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Larry Blanchard <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<bvskoo$vttg1$1@ID-SNIP
> > And I repeat my previous assertion that the major problem we face is
> > preserving our independence. How do you fight a war if all your
> > steel/oil/electronics is imported from a country that becomes, or favors,
> > your enemy?
>
> What kind of a war can you imagine that would have all the
> manufacturering countries against us and be so protracted in actual
> battle that we use up all of our tanks, airplanes and guns, yet we
> don't call an end to it by using the nukes?
>
Ouch! So it's no problem 'cause we could always nuke 'em? Great
solution!
> I think you are planning the last war - which often gets nations in
> trouble.
>
Could be, but I hope the next one is more like that than like the nuclear
you envision. And don't forget that a country, or group of countries,
can exert a lot of pressure without war. Did we threaten to nuke the
Arabs over the oil embargo?
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
>> > And I repeat my previous assertion that the major problem we face is
>> > preserving our independence. How do you fight a war if all your
>> > steel/oil/electronics is imported from a country that becomes, or favors,
>
>> > your enemy?
>>
>> What kind of a war can you imagine that would have all the
>> manufacturering countries against us and be so protracted in actual
>> battle that we use up all of our tanks, airplanes and guns, yet we
>> don't call an end to it by using the nukes?
>>
>Ouch! So it's no problem 'cause we could always nuke 'em? Great
>solution!
So where did I say it was a solution to anything. I simply asserted that is the
FAR more likely senerio than a protracted battlefield war if either side came
anywhere near to losing or suffering major causualties. I don't like it, I
never invented the damn things, but they certainly changed the mathmatics of
major wadfare forever.
>> I think you are planning the last war - which often gets nations in
>> trouble.
>>
>Could be, but I hope the next one is more like that than like the nuclear
>you envision. And don't forget that a country, or group of countries,
>can exert a lot of pressure without war. Did we threaten to nuke the
>Arabs over the oil embargo?
What does that have to do with a war that uses up all of our manufactured war
materials to the extent that we cannot make replacements - which was the
premise of the OP and why he said national security demands that we stop
importing goods to support a national manufacturing base so that we can make
war materials when we get into the next big war.............
>--
>Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
Syria?
What? We're shooting spitwads now?
"David Hall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:20040205215921.27272.00001359@mb- but they
certainly changed the mathmatics of
> major wadfare forever.
>
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
>>Brian Elfert wrote:
>>
>>>RB <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It seems to me that we in the US are getting very close to being a
>>>>colony of Asia. Or are we already?
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm positive the value of everything manufactured in the USA far, far
>>>exceeds the value of everything manufactured in Asia that is imported.
>>>
>>>It just seems like everything is being made in Asia because so many
>>>household goods are made there. You and I don't see the made in the USA
>>>labels on lots of things because they are buried inside other things we
>>>buy.
>>>
>>>There isn't a made in the USA label on a Boeing jet, yet they are made
>>>right here in the USA.
>>
>>I thought they had large sections of fuselage sub contracted out to China?
>>
>
>
> Nope, Japan. China is not quite there in terms of high-end,
> consistently reliable manufacturing.
This is something which really surprises me about this country.
Which is lack of really high end US made products. I think is some
kind of deficiency in a culture. My wife works in Berkeley Lab and
most, if not all, precise equipment they use made abroad. Most from
Germany, France and Japan. These are not low wage places. Why
American companies do not make any equipment which would compete
in this market? This is not only about precise machinery. Simple
erasers, just block of latex, yet all engineering students use
German erasers (not Chinese), while american made are really a
piece of crap. Why good erasers can't be made here in US? My only
guess is a lack of culture of the management. There is of course
pressure to increase margins and stock price but it does exist in
Europe and Japan as well. So, I am not surprised that some major
parts of Boeing jet made in Japan.
I am not an American, though I live here in US. And I wish this
country to succeed, not in launching men to the Mars (though it
would be good) or waging wars left and right, but in making life
of its people better. But I don't hold my breath.
Dmitri
In article <[email protected]>,
Unisaw A100 <[email protected]> writes:
> DeWalt is one thing but Jet has pretty much built their line
> on the back of the already available Delta design. I
> suppose you could make a case-by-case argument but let's
> face it, they only backwards engineered the Delta line.
I think it's worth pointing out that, unlike Delta, Jet was
no a tool manufacturer. If I'm not mistaken, Jet didn't have
any manufacturing facilities until their acquisition of Powermatic.
For that matter, did Jet aquire Powermatic, or was it their
parent corporation (whose not-so-memorable name I forget)?
> I'm thinking Jet is turning their pockets inside out right
> now and looking at all available avenues to buy the Penthair
> Machinery ConGlomCo. It would make them instant players in
Hmmm..... I'm not so sure. Would it really be in their
best financial interest? Sure, I can see a definite benefit.
But would that benefit be worth the cost? Would it be like
Ford buying Chrysler or Daimler-Benz (sp?) buying Chrysler?
> This would be no different than Delta and Rockwell buying up
> Walker-Turner, Crescent, Red Star and all the other great
> woodworking machinery makers that have fallen by the wayside
> but had/have made Delta what it was once upon a time.
Well, I think it would be a little different. Again, Jet is
an importer/marketer of machinery, not a manufacturer. Do they
want to go that direction? Sometimes corporations do best sticking
to what they do best, so to speak.
> UA100, off to make popcorn and scrunching his ass down in
> the big comfy chair...
I think I'll wait for it to come out on video.
--
Jeff Thunder
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences
Northern Illinois Univ.
jthunder at math dot niu dot edu
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> You've gotta be kidding? What kind of evidence has to fall on you?
> California printed their last government election ballots in something
> on the order of 64 different languages. Doesn't seem like a whole lot
> of assimilation going on there, does there? Bilingual education has,
> instead of becoming a means of assimilating students, a means of
> separating them and teaching purely in Spanish rather than bringing them
> up to speed and getting them immersed in the English language. No
> generalization there. There are nearly daily stories in the news in
> which one ethnic community raises some issue or other about how they are
> being "marginalized" or "ignored".
>
Wow! Something we agree on :-).
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but
> living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for
> some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to
> pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to
> you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money,
> only the increase in some investment account.
Yes and no. There's more to the story than just how much I could make in my
industry. I have a nice niche job and what, for the industry, is an
absolutely obscene amount of home time. I can't earn more than this
without giving up another 30-40 hours a week, and I'd rather be poor and
have time to play in my shop and do stuff with my kids.
So, in the short term, I have no plans to raise my income. In the longer
term, my useful income is going to be going up quite dramatically once some
long-running obligations are dealt with. We're going to do without it just
like we have been for all these years, and that should build cash reserves
very quickly indeed.
From there, I don't know. We'll figure it out when we actually get there.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
I just read about this too.
Check out these links to see the full story...
http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/4357008.html
and...
http://www.smartmoney.com/bn/ON/index.cfm?story=ON-20040204-000662-0923
I am curious to see what develops from here.
Dusty
"A man without a wife is like a fish without a bicycle." unknown
On 04 Feb 2004 17:42:54 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>Bridger <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>hell, if they're sending handsaws to japan to be sharpened,(apparently
>>'cause us 'murricanz is too dumb to do it) sending your car to
>>singapore for a tune up can't be far off.
>
>Yes, sir, we can get your car tuned up in India for only $5. The bad news
>is that shipping will be $600 and your car will be gone for five weeks.
>
>I doubt anyone is sending a handsaw to Japan for sharpening to save money.
>Wages there are as just as high as here. The Japanese can probably do a
>better job and shipping a hand saw is pretty darn cheap compared to a car.
>
>Brian Ekfert
yeah, but for the tune up all we have to ship are the engine and
brakes. the rest gets parked in a container somewhere....
<G>
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
> Gee, you can't find people who want to work for near poverty level wages?
> You don't say what you pay, but you think $15/hour is too high, so your
> wages can't be very much.
>
> I know everyone can't work for $20 to $30 an hour, but around $10 an hour
> is very much on the low end for a full time job. Who needs a 401k when
> they can't afford to put anything into it?
>
> Brian Elfert
OK, the wages are not $20 an hour, but the skill level needed is a 1 on a
scale of 1 to 10. You need more skill and training to work stocking shelves
at a grocery store or flipping burgers. What is that worth on the open
market?
As for not putting anything in the 401k, I do know for a fact that one of
these guys has about $100,000 in value in his. Not bad for a HS grad in his
20's with little skills.
If we paid $15 or $20 for the work, a tradesman or carpenter would be
getting paid $80 + benefits or so to be in scale. If we paid that rate,
we'd also be out of business. We are very much in line with our competition
in the region. Our skilled workers get a higher rate, again, competitive
with the best around.
You have to put everything in perspective. There are many companies that
pay less for higher work demand. This is far from "sweat shop" conditions.
We sometimes hire people that come here because it is a big increase from
their minimum wage job and think they are doing well. They are for their
abilities.
Ed
Brian, as a professional programmer I will echo your sentiments. Things
I've made my living on the past 25 years are now being done in India. If
you'd have told me back then that I was making a bad career choice, I'd have
ask you what planet you're from.
Back on topic - I like Wes's idea a few posts back. Isn't there at least a
couple of employee owned airlines that are doing pretty well? Why not a
tool company ?
jim bailey
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Frank Ketchum" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> In another decade or so, we won't have any IT jobs left in the USA.
> Everything will be farmed out to India. With the Internet, all the
> servers will get moved to India. The only computers left in the USA will
> be desktops that are maintained by a very small workforce.
>
> I fully expect to be out of a job in 5 to 10 years as server
> administration gets farmed out overseas to save money.
>
> Brian Elfert
>
>
Welcome to the new world order.......Why do we keep electing these same
people year after year who do nothing but accept special interest
contributions, take care of them selves, and continue to sell us out?
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >i will second that! i am not in the IT feild. I am in construction so
> >its different. my job is not going overseas but all the imigrants are
> >taking the construction jobs now because they are willing to work
> >cheap. wages are dropping because of this but the cost of living is
>
> Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
> owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
> work you have ever seen. Almost everything has been redone at least once.
> My friend has spent 10s of thousands on repairs to a new house. Last I
> heard, the stucco was being replaced because no expansion joints were
> used.
>
> I worked with a group of Hmong cutting grass in the 80s. They expended
> more effort figuring out how not to do work than actually working.
> Luckily, it was a drought year and there wasn't any grass to cut.
>
> Brian Elfert
In article <ddhUb.226660$na.363761@attbi_s04>, [email protected] says...
> Welcome to the new world order.......Why do we keep electing these same
> people year after year who do nothing but accept special interest
> contributions, take care of them selves, and continue to sell us out?
>
I'm not sure how much of this you can blame on government vs. behavior
patterns of our citizenry. Protectionism never works -- looking back at
the luddites and others who opposed the industrial revolution or looking
at the quality of goods produced in countries with protected industries
shows that such behaviors only have short-term benefits and long-term
detriments.
I have no idea what the answer is, but I don't think looking to
government to solve the problem is the answer.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> > >
... snip
> >
> > > Yes, I know--you'll say "they are loafers, do shoddy work, and don't pay
> > > their way." This is only partly true, and only of individuals. We all
> know
> > > more than a few Americans who fit that image. Since the 1960s the old
> > > pattern of immigrants paying more more in taxes than they received in
> state
> > > benefits has been broken. However, the pattern of future generations
> > > assimilating is still the norm. (Obww)
> > >
> >
> > You are attributing attitudes and comments to me that I never said nor
> > implied.
>
> " There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone
> by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by
> wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to
> their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their
> own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
> current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the
> desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
> languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
> society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made
> by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries."
>
> This is your original post. Note that it is loaded with generalizations and
> contains very little evidence.
>
You've gotta be kidding? What kind of evidence has to fall on you?
California printed their last government election ballots in something
on the order of 64 different languages. Doesn't seem like a whole lot
of assimilation going on there, does there? Bilingual education has,
instead of becoming a means of assimilating students, a means of
separating them and teaching purely in Spanish rather than bringing them
up to speed and getting them immersed in the English language. No
generalization there. There are nearly daily stories in the news in
which one ethnic community raises some issue or other about how they are
being "marginalized" or "ignored". We daily have people crossing the
border to have babies that become US citizens and entitle the parents to
various government subsidies and largess. There is a High School in San
Diego that has a significant number of illegal border crossers as
students who come to school during the day and return to Mexico in the
evening. The school district gets $5400 per year per student from the
taxpayers of the state of California to educate citizens of another
country.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
... snip
>
> Let's not forget that the statistics published for what people can earn in a
> given field are always for people who have made it through the lean initial
> years too. That's a real deal breaker. I was looking seriously at law
> enforcement until I learned that rookie cops make the same as experienced
> cashiers at Wal-Mart.
>
... snip
> This is one reason why I view income as a trap. I could do *much* better
> than $15 an hour in trucking already, but I don't like my trade very much,
> and I don't want to limit my options by raising my income too high.
>
> What's that? "Limit your options by raising your income too high? Are you
> insane?" No, not at all. I have proven that the more I make, the more
> ways I find to obligate myself to maintaining that level of income. If
> changing careers and maintaining $15 an hour is difficult (virtually
> impossible, I'm afraid), it would be that much more difficult to maintain
> $20 or $30.
>
Just as a thought, have you thought about raising your income, but
living on what you are currently making? By stashing away the extra for
some time, you could afford to have some "down time" in the future to
pay your dues in a new job. Make it something that is transparent to
you, as in through payroll deduction so you don't see the extra money,
only the increase in some investment account.
On 04 Feb 2004 20:43:44 GMT, Brian Elfert <[email protected]> wrote:
>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>i will second that! i am not in the IT feild. I am in construction so
>>its different. my job is not going overseas but all the imigrants are
>>taking the construction jobs now because they are willing to work
>>cheap. wages are dropping because of this but the cost of living is
>
>Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
>owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
>work you have ever seen. Almost everything has been redone at least once.
>My friend has spent 10s of thousands on repairs to a new house. Last I
>heard, the stucco was being replaced because no expansion joints were
>used.
>
>I worked with a group of Hmong cutting grass in the 80s. They expended
>more effort figuring out how not to do work than actually working.
>Luckily, it was a drought year and there wasn't any grass to cut.
>
>Brian Elfert
yeh BUT for the most part contractors today arent realy interested in
quality. the main concern seems to be how fast can you do it and how
much is it gonna cost? when 5 illegals can go in and knock it out in 1
1/2 - 2 hours and it will take me most of a day to do it right by
myself and they cut my prices by 40% chances are they will get the
work. the prospective home buyer wont see all the crap because he or
she wont know what to look for so quality doesnt count. its a sad
state of affairs but that seems to be the way the industry is going.
skeez
"Wes Stewart" <n7ws@_arrl.net> wrote in message
> Actually, even if you are an American Indian your ancestors were
> immigrants. There is no evidence of human evolution in the new world.
But that would mean they "discovered" America and we'd lose Columbus Day as
a holiday. In the third grade Mrs. Price taught me that Chris found us so it
MUST be right.
Ed
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 08:38:06 -0500, "Rumpty" <[email protected]>
wrote:
|>On the positive side, they may be able to
|offer the same quality of tools at a lower price and still get a better
|margin for themselves with oversees production.
|
|Ya true and the hell with the folks working the Delta PC production lines,
|they never bought what you had to sell anyway. (I really should throw in a
|smiley face with my comment, but this is all too serious.)
Maybe the employees should consider buying the company themselves.
They get to keep their jobs and it might even increase their market
share.
Some of it is that, and that's fine. But that's only the part of the story
they want to tell you. I know a number of carpenters around here that are
having a very hard time even considering the amount of building they are
doing (considerable). Reason for that is that contractors are hiring
Mexicans. If they are illegal, that's better as far as they are concerned
since they don't dare complain about low pay, lack of benifits and no
overtime pay.
Of course, workmanship is going to crap along with that but who cares. The
contractors are making money.
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
> do?
>
>
Have you always been this humer impaired?
"Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "CW" <[email protected]> writes:
> >Year 0. I'd even settle for 0.2 but no less precise than that.
> >"Everett M. Greene" <[email protected]> wrote in message > How
far
> >back do we want to trace to determine ancestry?
> >
> >
>
>
> Unfortunately, CW, there is no year 0. 2BC->1BC->1AD->2AD ad infinitum.
>
> scott
UA100 responds:
>Walker wrote:
>>If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up the
>>gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left
>
>
>OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I know this one!
>
>PURPLE!!!
Wrong! Three chimes.
Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> >
> > "Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >
> > > Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My
friend
> > > owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the
shoddiest
> > > work you have ever seen. >
> > > Brian Elfert
> >
> > Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your
forefathers
> > were immigrants.
> >
>
> Actually, you can only say the American Indians were the first
> immigrants.
>
> > The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an
immigrant.
> > More examples available if needed.
> > Ed
>
> There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone
> by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by
> wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to
> their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their
> own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
> current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the
> desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
> languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
> society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made
> by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries.
This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in school
until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during the
Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants, but
by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely
assimilated within the new culture.As for sending money home, historians now
agree that somewhere around 20 percent of immigrants who came over during
the 1880-1910 wave remigrated, that is, returned to the home country. And
many immigrants sent money home, often to allow friends and family to
migrate. Last, immigrants working at low-paying jobs is precisely the
historical pattern, in part because they are the jobs that are least
attractive to the natives. For one example, check the use of Chinese labor
in building the transcontinental railroad in 1869-72
Yes, I know--you'll say "they are loafers, do shoddy work, and don't pay
their way." This is only partly true, and only of individuals. We all know
more than a few Americans who fit that image. Since the 1960s the old
pattern of immigrants paying more more in taxes than they received in state
benefits has been broken. However, the pattern of future generations
assimilating is still the norm. (Obww)
The point? Most of what you have posted is the stereotypical reaction to
immigration, with the usual false generalizations.
Bob Schmall
Can you say, "Do you want fries with that ?"
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
"Frank Ketchum" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
SNIP
Do we really want to be a country that is incapable of manufacturing
anything?
> Just how much potential is there in the services sector?
>
> Frank
>
>
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:27:31 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
pushed a hot button:
|What jobs? Picking crops, mowing lawns that most of us here don't want to
|do?
Nothing personal Ed but...
Your's is the tired argument that wetbacks and other criminal
immigrants are only taking the jobs that Americans won't take. Nooo,
they are taking the jobs that Americans won't take at the depressed
wages that the illegals will work for.
Curiously, somehow in the past all of this work got done without this
"cheap" labor.
Furthermore, if the *total* economic picture is looked at, this cheap
labor isn't so cheap. For example, let's say that the local Mexican
restaurant hires some illegals as dishwashers and busboys (try and
find one that doesn't).
Since these employees are "off the books" and can't complain, they are
paid a depressed wage. (They also have no standards of cleanliness or
personal hygiene, but that's another story.)
So because "Juan" instead of John, the American teenager, is in the
kitchen doing dishes, my plate of tacos costs me a little less. But
does it really?
To get to his job, Juan buys a beater of an automobile but he doesn't
bother to get a driver's license or insurance. To protect myself
against loss in case Juan crashes into my car I am required to buy
uninsured-motorist insurance. Neither Juan nor the owner of the
restaurant helps me out with the premiums. My tacos just got a little
pricier.
Now that he's established, Juan decides to smuggle his pregnant wife
to the US. She crosses the border with eighteen other people in the
back of a pickup truck. The Border Patrol stumbles upon them and
tries to stop the truck. The driver flees only to overturn and
scatter his passengers over the countryside. Four people are killed
and many others are seriously injured. The Border Patrol requests
three medivac helicopters and six ambulances to the scene.
(I am not making this up; it happens frequently in Southern Arizona)
The victims are taken to the one remaining trauma center for care.
The other two trauma centers in this community of a million people
have all been closed because of the costs of treating illegal aliens
drove them out of business. The Border Patrol doesn't arrest any of
illegals until after they have been released from medical care (if
even then). This is well-publicized policy on their part. This is
because if they make the arrests before medical care is given, the
federal government must pay for it. In this, and every other case,
the local taxpayers pay the costs. Add some more hidden cost to the
price of tacos.
(I am not making this up either)
Now while Juan's wife Maria, is in the hospital, little Nino Jesus is
born. It was a difficult pregnancy; Jesus arrives prematurely and
requires a couple of months of intensive care. No problem, the local
taxpayers pick up the tab. Jesus is automatically an American citizen
and thus is due the largess the welfare state can provide. (Actually,
Jesus doesn't have to be a citizen to get these goodies).
Now that Juan and Maria are the parents of an American citizen they
get to hang around and get aid to dependent children, free medical
care (free to them anyway, my tacos just got even more expensive) and
subsidized housing. They will lots of support from "activist" groups
that hand-wring over their "rights."
When little Jesus goes to school he will be furnished special
education and English as a Second (!) Language classes since his
parents, unlike all of the other immigrants to this country before
them, decided that they don't really need to learn English to get by
and speak nothing but Spanish to Jesus.
When Jesus is old enough to vote, he will be provided a ballot in
Spanish and can elect a Hispanic congressman. This will be easy
because the courts have dictated that there should be a "minority
majority" congressional district, created to insure that minority
votes are not "diluted." (Regrettably, I'm not making this up
either.)
Never mind that Non-Hispanic votes (one of them mine) are diluted by
this practice. Besides, they are working two jobs trying to keep up
with their property tax bills and shouldn't be taking off work to vote
anyway.
All of this for a plate of "cheap" tacos.
ps. Before I'm labeled as a xenophobic, culturally insensitive bigot,
I must confess that I was married to an American-born Hispanic woman
for 16 years.
|
In article <[email protected]>, n7ws@_arrl.net
says...
... snip
> President Bush has done a lot of crap that I dislike (too much to list
> here) but the issue that pushes me over the edge is this BS of
> "legalizing" the illegal aliens in a pathetic, transparent attempt to
> pander for votes. He's going to need them because I'm going to vote
> for a Democrat for the first time.
>
You know, I understand your frustration. But, much as I despise what
the Republicrat wing of the Republican party has done, I can't imagine
having somebody like Dean or Kerry (who voted to cancel the F-15, the F-
14, the Patriot missile system, the Aegis missile cruiser system, cut
funds to the F-16, the Tomahawk missile system -- i.e. every major
defense system in our inventory) in charge of our defense. Especially
given the current environment with Al Queada continuing to plan
additional attacks on the US.
Wes Stewart writes:
>
>Your's is the tired argument that wetbacks and other criminal
>immigrants are only taking the jobs that Americans won't take. Nooo,
>they are taking the jobs that Americans won't take at the depressed
>wages that the illegals will work for.
>
>Curiously, somehow in the past all of this work got done without this
>"cheap" labor.
Yeah, it did. With cheap labor because of the depression and cheap labor
because there is always an underclass that is uneducated and trying to work its
way out of poverty (at least some members are). Read some stories of the Okies
and others during the '30s. Check out the life of migrant laborers in the '40s,
'50s, '60s and '70s before foreign cheap labor took over.
The only thing that has changed about that end of the labor market is the
accent, and the fact of a border crossing. Pay is still terrible. Living
conditions are bad.
If someone is going to pay you 3 bucks an hour for stoop labor in the Salinas
Valley and you discover you can make $7 an hour framing houses, you're going
find a way to buy a hammer, saw and framing square regardless of your origins.
I agree with much of what you're saying, but the problem you note is visible
but not the major problem out side the southwest. It does need correction,
including the need for non-English speaking immigrants to learn the language of
the country they're IN rather than their expecting the country to learn their
language. Eventually, of course, these illegals sift into other areas,
increasing the tax loads there.
The true problem with job loss comes with corporations that have no loyalty to
anything but money, and even then have an ability only to do short term
planning: many are the type known as multi-national, but too many companies
exporting jobs are plain, ol' American. It isn't the loss of true bottom end
jobs that we bemoan and that we're missing. It has been probably 30 years since
many Americans would do that work.
Hell, even the government is screwed up over the causes and effects. A year or
two ago, the U.S. Army picked up a Chinese bid to make the black berets that
the Army leadership was stupid enough to think would make ever soldier a
Special Forces type. The order was returned to a U.S. company because of the
hullaballoo, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find it is now
overseas somewhere. Uniform bits of that type are relativley unimportant, but
it does lead one to wonder how much of our critical hardware is produced by
overseas companies that might be affected by THEIR government's intervention
should that government disapprove of U.S. behavior in any arena.
But, basically, it's not the loss of minimum wage jobs that is killing the U.S.
It is the loss of manufacturing and other jobs work (including service industry
jobs: how many of you recently have had a person with a slight sing-song accent
answer a computer help line? How many of you have gotten any help from said
person? The major skill seems to be an ability to say "I'm sorry, I don't have
that information" with great sincerity).
The problem is more pervasive that immigrant labor, though the illegal end of
that is enough of a problem all by itself. Ah well. Bush is going to make it
all well. Make the illegals legal (nothing like a good reward for commiting a
felony as you enter your adopted country) and let the real influx begin.
Anything to get that massive Hisppanic vote.
>
>ps. Before I'm labeled as a xenophobic, culturally insensitive bigot,
>I must confess that I was married to an American-born Hispanic woman
>for 16 years.
>
Hell, I was married to a Presbyterian for nearly 20 years. That doesn't make me
like other Presbyterians more, though I sure as hell would keep a wary eye on
'em after that experience.
Charlie Self
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other
way." Mark Twain
http://hometown.aol.com/charliediy/myhomepage/business.html
"Henry Bibb" <[email protected]> writes:
> "Carver33" <[email protected]> wrote
> > On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:47:10 -0700, WD <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >Mark <[email protected] wrote:
> > >
> > >>Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal
> > >>immigration are until it's your job their shit canning.
> > >
> > >Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
> > >jobs had gone?
> > >
> > Hell, they wouldn't ship the jobs overseas if all of the employees
> > would go to the owners and offer to work for ten cents on the dollar.
>
> Yes, they would, because the local workers would still be covered by
> wage & hour rules, OSHA, things like that. The foreigners aren't.
And there's the medical care mess in the USofA. Better, faster,
cheaper is the mantra of most technology advances, but in
health care it seems to be maybe better, maybe faster, but you
can damn well bet it ain't gonna be cheaper.
Joe Willmann <[email protected]> writes:
>Now why is there illegal immagration? The same answer as above. It is
>because of you and me. Why? Because when we go grocery shopping we
>shop for the lowest price goods. If farmers could pay $10.00 an hour
>for orange pickers then oranges would cost $10.00 a pound at the grocery
>store instead of $0.99. You want to end the demand for cheap labor then
>get off your but and stop demanding low cost goods.
If the price of oranges would go up 1000% if the farmer paid $10/hr, they
must be paying the pickers about $.01/hour. The percentage of the retail
price of an orange that goes to farm labor is probably less 3%.
Brian Elfert
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:43:46 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal immigration are
>until it's your job their shit canning.
Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
jobs had gone?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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On 05 Feb 2004 08:53:41 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
[snipped many good points]
I don't what to perpetuate this OT much longer, but a coupla more
comments.
|I agree with much of what you're saying, but the problem you note is visible
|but not the major problem out side the southwest.
The problem is coming to a town near you.
|
|The problem is more pervasive that immigrant labor, though the illegal end of
|that is enough of a problem all by itself. Ah well. Bush is going to make it
|all well. Make the illegals legal (nothing like a good reward for commiting a
|felony as you enter your adopted country) and let the real influx begin.
|Anything to get that massive Hisppanic vote.
I am a life-long Republican who cast my first presidential vote for
Barry Goldwater. (Clearly at 21 I was wise beyond my years.[g] My
liberal Jewish boss at the time told me that if I voted for Barry we
would wind up bombing N. Vietnam. He was a smart guy. I voted for
Barry and sure enough we bombed N. Vietnam.)
I am also one of those "safe" votes that President Bush takes for
granted (and thus ignores): white, middle-class, male Republican.
President Bush has done a lot of crap that I dislike (too much to list
here) but the issue that pushes me over the edge is this BS of
"legalizing" the illegal aliens in a pathetic, transparent attempt to
pander for votes. He's going to need them because I'm going to vote
for a Democrat for the first time.
|>
|>ps. Before I'm labeled as a xenophobic, culturally insensitive bigot,
|>I must confess that I was married to an American-born Hispanic woman
|>for 16 years.
|>
|
|Hell, I was married to a Presbyterian for nearly 20 years. That doesn't make me
|like other Presbyterians more, though I sure as hell would keep a wary eye on
|'em after that experience.
|
Point taken.
Wes Stewart
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:16:13 GMT, "markm"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>They have a saying where I work, "you own your own employability". I've
>also seen quite a few people laid off over the years but somehow the fit
>survive. That is, the ones that I considered sharp land on their feed and
>the majority of the others, well, deserved what they got. I too am a
>software engineer but have to admit that it's highly overrated, any idiot
>can do this shit but only a few of us have a clue.
>
Unfortunately, any idiot can't do this shit, but thinks he can. And,
if he's a good BSer, the management don't usually know the difference.
Course, I'm sure there are places where this isn't true, but...
>
>
>As for out sourcing, we have been sending quite a few jobs to China and
>India. And I have to admit the Indians work like dogs for dirt and many are
>sharp. The Chinese on the other hand work like dogs for dirt J They IMHO
>are over-educated idiots but they get paid 1/10 or less that myself and it
>only takes 3 or 4 of them to keep up with me, you do the math. There is no
>loyalty when it comes to money and we all reap what we sow. Something to
>think about next time you drive your Tyodie over to Walmart to buy some
>cheap chink shit because "you can't beat the prices". That was taken form
>an interview I saw of laid off Walmart workers complaining about being
>unemployed and jobs and goods from overseas. When asked if they still
>shopped there they said "well yah, you can't beat the prices".
>
Those Toyotas are some of the best, most reliable cars made and aren't
exactly the caliber of what I'd guess you'd find at WallyWorld. If
the 'muricans back then realized they had to make a decent product,
those durn furriners wouldn't have taken their market away from them.
You'll note full size trucks are on the hit list next. Shame this
country can't be at the top of the auto quality list.
Renata
>
>
>It's all driven by the consumer; you want high wages but cheap shit. So way
>does anybody owe you anything and why should they be "loyal" to you?
>
>
>
>I'm just glad that I'll probably, with luck, reach a comfortable retirement
>before we have completely destroyed this wonderful country and it's economy.
>
>"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
>> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
>> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
>> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
>> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
>> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
>> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
>
[email protected] (Charlie Self) wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> The true problem with job loss comes with corporations that have no
> loyalty to anything but money, and even then have an ability only to
> do short term planning: many are the type known as multi-national, but
> too many companies exporting jobs are plain, ol' American. It isn't
> the loss of true bottom end jobs that we bemoan and that we're
> missing. It has been probably 30 years since many Americans would do
> that work.
BZZZZZ. Wrong.
The true problem isn't with corporate america it is with Americans.
Corporate America does what it does to maximize profits. Why? Because
the stockholders demand it. Who are these evil stockholders that force
our corporations to outsource high paying jobs to low wage countries?
You YOU and ME. We all have 401Ks now. We are all in the "market" one
way or the other.
Now why is there illegal immagration? The same answer as above. It is
because of you and me. Why? Because when we go grocery shopping we
shop for the lowest price goods. If farmers could pay $10.00 an hour
for orange pickers then oranges would cost $10.00 a pound at the grocery
store instead of $0.99. You want to end the demand for cheap labor then
get off your but and stop demanding low cost goods.
I made a workbench for a friends grandson. It was a fun project and I
did it for the fun of it. When I got done I had 20 hours of labor in it
and $50.00 in materials. She gave me $125.00 for it. Why? Because she
could go out and buy a store bought one simular that was made in China
for about the same amount. So I made 75/20 or $3.75 an hour. To have
made a "living wage" off of it I would have had to charge $250 - $300 of
of it. There is no way that a "toy" her grandson is going to beat on
with a hammer is worth that.
Do don't blame the illegal imagrants, or corporate America, blame
yourself - all of you/us are the problem.
The next time you shop a sale, or purchase a product based on price then
just remember you are the cause.
By the way - all of the "you"s in this are the global you, not
charliediy.
On 05 Feb 2004 08:53:41 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>The true problem with job loss comes with corporations that have no loyalty to
>anything but money, and even then have an ability only to do short term
>planning: many are the type known as multi-national, but too many companies
>exporting jobs are plain, ol' American. It isn't the loss of true bottom end
>jobs that we bemoan and that we're missing.
Truer words were never said Charlie - And the immigration problem is a
direct result of complicity between big government and big business to
keep your wages low - supply and demand baby - just like the war on
drugs, it's all a sham. Yeah that taco is getting more expensive by
the minute. But corporate greed is only starting to rear it's ugly
head - next thing to look for is outsourcing of higher paying jobs to
India and similar third world countries by the IBM's and the financial
institutions; this is going on right now behind our backs while the
media concentrates it's news on nonexistent WMD's.
We're slowly but surely all getting dragged down to the lowest common
denominator where we'll be competing directly with Chinese peasants
for work - I say we should stop this global madness now before it's
too late. I hope I haven't offended any executive types out there, but
your days are numbered too.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
...snip
> But, basically, it's not the loss of minimum wage jobs that is killing the U.S.
> It is the loss of manufacturing and other jobs work (including service industry
> jobs: how many of you recently have had a person with a slight sing-song accent
> answer a computer help line?
Slight? Slight my butt! Every time I call DirecWay satellite support,
I have to struggle to understand the Eastern Indian accent trying to
talk to me.
> How many of you have gotten any help from said
> person? The major skill seems to be an ability to say "I'm sorry, I don't have
> that information" with great sincerity).
>
Yeah, they're really, really good at apologizing and saying they are
sorry.
>
>BZZZZZ. Wrong.
>
>The true problem isn't with corporate america it is with Americans.
>Corporate America does what it does to maximize profits. Why? Because
>the stockholders demand it. Who are these evil stockholders that force
>our corporations to outsource high paying jobs to low wage countries?
>You YOU and ME. We all have 401Ks now. We are all in the "market" one
>way or the other.
>
>Now why is there illegal immagration? The same answer as above. It is
>because of you and me. Why? Because when we go grocery shopping we
>shop for the lowest price goods. If farmers could pay $10.00 an hour
>for orange pickers then oranges would cost $10.00 a pound at the grocery
>store instead of $0.99. You want to end the demand for cheap labor then
>get off your but and stop demanding low cost goods.
>
>I made a workbench for a friends grandson. It was a fun project and I
>did it for the fun of it. When I got done I had 20 hours of labor in it
>and $50.00 in materials. She gave me $125.00 for it. Why? Because she
>could go out and buy a store bought one simular that was made in China
>for about the same amount. So I made 75/20 or $3.75 an hour. To have
>made a "living wage" off of it I would have had to charge $250 - $300 of
>of it. There is no way that a "toy" her grandson is going to beat on
>with a hammer is worth that.
>
>Do don't blame the illegal imagrants, or corporate America, blame
>yourself - all of you/us are the problem.
>
>The next time you shop a sale, or purchase a product based on price then
>just remember you are the cause.
>
>By the way - all of the "you"s in this are the global you, not
>charliediy.
hm.. ive realy tried to see your reasoning but it makes no sense. the
reason it makes no sense is because of the differen values of the
dollar. people working in say pakistan can and do work for much less
money than we do here because the us dollar is worth much more in
pakistan than it is here. our minimum home in my area is around
100,000 dollars but the minimum home in pakistan is probly 10% of that
so those folks are living just as good on the money they make as we
are on what we make. those illegals that come here are willling to
live with 4 or 5 or more families under the same roof. are you? am i?
i think not. they come from poverty so those living conditions are a
huge step up for them. us corporations only concider the bottom line.
they do not care about their workers needs only the bottom line. sad
but true. if they can cut prodution costs by 50% then that 50% goes in
their pockets not ours. sure the stockholders make a little but not
nearly as much as the corporate execs. if you think your 401k is gonna
suport you when you are too old to work think again my friend. with
inflation you will likley need a second income just to keep your home
much less eat. i dont know what the answer is either but at the rate
we are going there will no longer be a middle class in this country
before too long. there will be rich and poor period. and without the
working middle class we are doomed. skeez
Well, your probably right, bout the toy cars. Just one of my pet peaves,
Abu in his Crayola is second only to Sally in her Stupidrue and Sherie in
her Subdivision. Get the furk out of my way, beemerboy coming through.
"Renata" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:16:13 GMT, "markm"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >They have a saying where I work, "you own your own employability". I've
> >also seen quite a few people laid off over the years but somehow the fit
> >survive. That is, the ones that I considered sharp land on their feed
and
> >the majority of the others, well, deserved what they got. I too am a
> >software engineer but have to admit that it's highly overrated, any idiot
> >can do this shit but only a few of us have a clue.
> >
>
> Unfortunately, any idiot can't do this shit, but thinks he can. And,
> if he's a good BSer, the management don't usually know the difference.
> Course, I'm sure there are places where this isn't true, but...
>
> >
> >
> >As for out sourcing, we have been sending quite a few jobs to China and
> >India. And I have to admit the Indians work like dogs for dirt and many
are
> >sharp. The Chinese on the other hand work like dogs for dirt J They
IMHO
> >are over-educated idiots but they get paid 1/10 or less that myself and
it
> >only takes 3 or 4 of them to keep up with me, you do the math. There is
no
> >loyalty when it comes to money and we all reap what we sow. Something to
> >think about next time you drive your Tyodie over to Walmart to buy some
> >cheap chink shit because "you can't beat the prices". That was taken
form
> >an interview I saw of laid off Walmart workers complaining about being
> >unemployed and jobs and goods from overseas. When asked if they still
> >shopped there they said "well yah, you can't beat the prices".
> >
>
> Those Toyotas are some of the best, most reliable cars made and aren't
> exactly the caliber of what I'd guess you'd find at WallyWorld. If
> the 'muricans back then realized they had to make a decent product,
> those durn furriners wouldn't have taken their market away from them.
> You'll note full size trucks are on the hit list next. Shame this
> country can't be at the top of the auto quality list.
>
> Renata
> >
> >
> >It's all driven by the consumer; you want high wages but cheap shit. So
way
> >does anybody owe you anything and why should they be "loyal" to you?
> >
> >
> >
> >I'm just glad that I'll probably, with luck, reach a comfortable
retirement
> >before we have completely destroyed this wonderful country and it's
economy.
> >
> >"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> I'm an experienced software developer, now unemployed. Bush says I
> >> should change jobs, but software is what I know and have been doing
> >> for 30 years. I could go back to college, but by that time I'll have
> >> 8 more years to work until retirement. Right now, I have no insurance
> >> and no plans to buy anything. I can't blame the government for my
> >> situation, but I hate Bush telling me the solution is "to change
> >> professions." I won't change my work, but I will change my vote!
> >
>
Would be IF we could get the lawyers away from it.
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:22:40 PST, [email protected] (Everett
M. Greene) wrote:
>"Henry Bibb" <[email protected]> writes:
>> "Carver33" <[email protected]> wrote
>> > On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:47:10 -0700, WD <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >Mark <[email protected] wrote:
>> > >
>> > >>Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal
>> > >>immigration are until it's your job their shit canning.
>> > >
>> > >Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
>> > >jobs had gone?
>> > >
>> > Hell, they wouldn't ship the jobs overseas if all of the employees
>> > would go to the owners and offer to work for ten cents on the dollar.
>>
>> Yes, they would, because the local workers would still be covered by
>> wage & hour rules, OSHA, things like that. The foreigners aren't.
>
>And there's the medical care mess in the USofA. Better, faster,
>cheaper is the mantra of most technology advances, but in
>health care it seems to be maybe better, maybe faster, but you
>can damn well bet it ain't gonna be cheaper.
Wes Stewart wrote:
> On 05 Feb 2004 08:53:41 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
> wrote:
>
> [snipped many good points]
>
> I don't what to perpetuate this OT much longer, but a coupla more
> comments.
>
> |I agree with much of what you're saying, but the problem you note is visible
> |but not the major problem out side the southwest.
>
> The problem is coming to a town near you.
Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal immigration are
until it's your job their shit canning.
And in this country when your shit canned you lose your voice. What you have to
say no longer matters. Don't believe me? Pretend to be unemployed. Watch people
act like it's contagious.
Continue with the Pollyanna act and when you find yourself on the outside
looking in it will be too late to do anything about it.
And if you think your immune, think again.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)
On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 03:12:23 GMT, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, n7ws@_arrl.net
>says...
>... snip
>> President Bush has done a lot of crap that I dislike (too much to list
>> here) but the issue that pushes me over the edge is this BS of
>> "legalizing" the illegal aliens in a pathetic, transparent attempt to
>> pander for votes. He's going to need them because I'm going to vote
>> for a Democrat for the first time.
>>
>
> You know, I understand your frustration. But, much as I despise what
>the Republicrat wing of the Republican party has done, I can't imagine
>having somebody like Dean or Kerry (who voted to cancel the F-15, the F-
>14, the Patriot missile system, the Aegis missile cruiser system, cut
>funds to the F-16, the Tomahawk missile system -- i.e. every major
>defense system in our inventory) in charge of our defense. Especially
>given the current environment with Al Queada continuing to plan
>additional attacks on the US.
Why, all we have to do is ignore them, pull all American interests,
public and private, back home, and forcibly convert the entire nation
to Islam and then the poor misunderstood peaceful practitioners of
Islam will leave us alone.
Well, actually, I suspect they'd go after someone else, possibly the
UK or Russia, maybe even Japan.
Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:47:10 -0700, WD <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:43:46 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal immigration are
>>until it's your job their shit canning.
>
>Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
>jobs had gone?
>
>
Hell, they wouldn't ship the jobs overseas if all of the employees
would go to the owners and offer to work for ten cents on the dollar.
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:47:10 -0700, WD <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:43:46 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal immigration are
>>until it's your job their shit canning.
>
>Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
>jobs had gone?
>
>
>
>-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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have you seen the living conditions elswhere? no thanks. i like it
here. do you know how the laws work elseware? no thanks, i like it
here. large corps are getting the best from both worlds at our
expense. labor cheap there sell for huge profit her. only problem is
sooner or later they wont be able to sell it here because noone here
will be able to afford it. skeez
"Carver33" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:47:10 -0700, WD <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:43:46 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Funny how little of a problem shipping work overseas and illegal
immigration are
> >>until it's your job their shit canning.
> >
> >Serious, how about shipping Americans overseas to where Americans'
> >jobs had gone?
> >
> >
> Hell, they wouldn't ship the jobs overseas if all of the employees
> would go to the owners and offer to work for ten cents on the dollar.
>
Yes, they would, because the local workers would still be covered by
wage & hour rules, OSHA, things like that. The foreigners aren't.
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 22:06:05 +0000, gabriel <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>>Of course, workmanship is going to crap along with that but who cares.
>>>The contractors are making money.
>> same here. skeez
>
>Don't be hypocrits. The making more money thing is temporary until a
>price war breaks out. This usually happens very soon in competitive
>industries. Once a proce war is on, the prices come down and everyone is
>happy because they paid less.
>
>Just look at WalMart, they truly have lower prices, and part of the
>reason is that they hired a cheaper company that hired illegal immigrant
>labor.
>
>The moral of the story: Americans, by shopping in droves at WalMart, are
>causing this on themselves. There's not other way about it. Companies
>are not going to complain about getting cheap labor, specially if they
>expand their marketshare. It is up to the citizens (who are too busy
>shopping at WalMart) to initiate the reform.
>
>The big, big losers in this are unskilled (or low-skilled) american
>workers whcih are being replaced by cheap labor. Both here and abroad.
>The bad thing is that skilled jobs are also leaving the country, and
>americans do not cry about that at all.
um please if you are gonna quote me quote only me. and BTW we do worry
about high tech jobs going overseas. that has been a part of the
disscusion here too. even if it aint bout woodworkin.
Brian:
In the wonderful world of corporate greed, some mba asshole accountant type
will figure out it is cheaper to fly some guy over from India to fix your
car or truck. The first step in the right direction is one term limits for
congress and outlawing special interest groups from lobbying.
Mike
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (SteveC1280) writes:
>
We all need to become auto or truck mechanics. They can't exactly send a
> car or truck to India for repair. They can fly airplanes overseas for
> overhaul, so don't become an airplane mechanic.
>
> Brian Elfert
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> writes:
> Gee, you can't find people who want to work for near poverty level wages?
> You don't say what you pay, but you think $15/hour is too high, so your
> wages can't be very much.
>
Yes, he did say what he paid. "Less than $9 dollars an hour".
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 12:23:20 -0800, "CW" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Some of it is that, and that's fine. But that's only the part of the story
>they want to tell you. I know a number of carpenters around here that are
>having a very hard time even considering the amount of building they are
>doing (considerable). Reason for that is that contractors are hiring
>Mexicans. If they are illegal, that's better as far as they are concerned
>since they don't dare complain about low pay, lack of benifits and no
>overtime pay.
>Of course, workmanship is going to crap along with that but who cares. The
>contractors are making money.
>
same here. skeez
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Pentair has hired Goldman Sachs to sell its tool division. Brand names
> include Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Air Power, and Oldham Saw.
>
> Pentair is selling because the tool divison only generates 10% margins vs
> 13% for their water systems.
>
> I'll bet this will be the last gasp for Made in the USA Delta and
> Porter-Cable products. A new buyer would probably move Unisaw production
> overseas to increase margins.
>
Man that sucks. I hate to see changes coming like this since I really like
Delta and Porter Cable products. On the positive side, they may be able to
offer the same quality of tools at a lower price and still get a better
margin for themselves with oversees production.
Frank
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> >
> > "Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> > > says...
> > > >
> > > > "Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > > Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My
> > friend
> > > > > owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the
> > shoddiest
> > > > > work you have ever seen. >
> > > > > Brian Elfert
> > > >
> > > > Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your
> > forefathers
> > > > were immigrants.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Actually, you can only say the American Indians were the first
> > > immigrants.
> > >
> > > > The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an
> > immigrant.
> > > > More examples available if needed.
> > > > Ed
> > >
> > > There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days
gone
> > > by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by
> > > wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to
> > > their new country while maintaining their family traditions within
their
> > > own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
> > > current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with
the
> > > desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
> > > languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
> > > society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is
made
> > > by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home
countries.
> >
> > This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in
school
> > until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
> > bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during
the
> > Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
> > cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants,
but
> > by the second and especially the third they have become almost
completely
> > assimilated within the new culture.
>
> As a 4'th generation descendant of German immigrants I know that the
> first generation, while preserving their traditions and language at home
> and within the private Lutheran schools they started, also worked to
> learn the language of the land to which they had migrated.
>
> > As for sending money home, historians now
> > agree that somewhere around 20 percent of immigrants who came over
during
> > the 1880-1910 wave remigrated, that is, returned to the home country.
And
> > many immigrants sent money home, often to allow friends and family to
> > migrate.
>
> A major difference between sending money to help your relative migrate
> and sending money to support your relatives in their country.
>
> > Last, immigrants working at low-paying jobs is precisely the
> > historical pattern, in part because they are the jobs that are least
> > attractive to the natives. For one example, check the use of Chinese
labor
> > in building the transcontinental railroad in 1869-72
> >
>
> I never said or indicated otherwise.
>
> > Yes, I know--you'll say "they are loafers, do shoddy work, and don't pay
> > their way." This is only partly true, and only of individuals. We all
know
> > more than a few Americans who fit that image. Since the 1960s the old
> > pattern of immigrants paying more more in taxes than they received in
state
> > benefits has been broken. However, the pattern of future generations
> > assimilating is still the norm. (Obww)
> >
>
> You are attributing attitudes and comments to me that I never said nor
> implied.
" There does seem to be a difference between the immigrants of days gone
by and many of the current immigrants. The ones from days gone by
wanted to *become* Americans and build a better life. They adapted to
their new country while maintaining their family traditions within their
own households. Many (please note the word "many" not "all") of the
current brand of immigrants are seeking a better life, but not with the
desire to assimilate into society -- look at the preponderance of
languages in which California ballots are printed -- they want our
society to adapt to *their* traditions. Much of the money that is made
by many of the illegal immigrants is sent back to their home countries."
This is your original post. Note that it is loaded with generalizations and
contains very little evidence.
> > The point? Most of what you have posted is the stereotypical reaction to
> > immigration, with the usual false generalizations.
> >
>
> Your comment above regarding the comment that immigrants are no longer
> net producers but are now net consumers of other peoples' money belies
> what you just said here.
Nope. I am opposed to granting citizenship to illegal immigrants, in part
because we can't afford it and in part because they should be held to the
same standards as those who have gone before. My reaction to your post was
based on the vague and unprovable comments you made about the motivation of
today's immigrants. Pick up a book on the history of immigration (even if
it's only one) and you'll find that immigrants to this country are the MOST
motivated of their people. Who else would take the huge risk to seize the
opportunity?
Very few of the posts on this thread look to the American businessman, who
will go offshore in an instant if it means lower costs. Yes, our lifestyle
expectations are too high. Yes, our leaders are doing nothing. Yes, we've
become complacent. Yes, Yes, Yes. But let's not forget to add the
contribution of businesses addicted to short-term profits, union-busting,
extreme executive compensation, and insular thinking. Example? My son works
for a major government contractor. The company will not institute a quality
control program anywhere near the industry standard, because they would
rather send high-priced engineers out to fix production and design problems.
I ain't naming names, but my son is looking at his options.
The whole business of "Exporting America" as Lou Dobbs calls it, is far too
complex for a history major like me to figure out. One part of the solution
must be to become more realistic about the status that we as a nation are
seeking. We aren't going to be the leaders of the world, but that's OK. A
good example is Italy, which leads the world in cooking and fast cars but
not much else. Are they unhappy? Hell, no--they love life and in general
have reasonable expectations. Americans are too driven by their need to be
number one and to have it all.
(soapbox mode off)
Bob
"Walker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If Bush doesn't care about keeping jobs in America, why is he opening up
the
> gates so foreigners can take the jobs we have left?
>
>Because the politicians need the votes but more importantly, to expand the
tax base because we are not keeping up with population growth enough to keep
up with government spending!!
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bob Schmall" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >This is precisely the historical pattern. My father heard Polish in
school
> >until he was 9 years old; the city of Milwaukee (and many others) had
> >bilingual schools, German and English; the Union army in Missouri during
the
> >Civil War was 60% German--the list goes on and on. The desire to retain
> >cultural traditions is strongest in the first generation of immigrants,
but
> >by the second and especially the third they have become almost completely
> >assimilated within the new culture.As for sending money home, historians
now
>
> A lot of the immigrants coming into the USA now are doing so illegally.
>
> The immigrants in the 1800s came here legally at least.
True--which is one reason I'm opposed to Mr. Bush's proposal to make them
citizens. Another is that it's a cheap election-year ploy that will play in
the Latino community but never get passed. The illegal immigrants should
meet the same standards as any who have gone before them. I was responding
to the overt racism in the posting.
Bob
"Brian Elfert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Some immigrants do great work, but some of them produce crap. My friend
> owns a house in Atlanta built mostly by immigrants. It is the shoddiest
> work you have ever seen. >
> Brian Elfert
Your family makes crap? Unless you are an American Indian, your forefathers
were immigrants.
The head of our space program that put a man on the moon is an immigrant.
More examples available if needed.
Ed