blade thickness gizmo

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 5:43:49 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 2:03:40 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Anyone remember the name of the device? Cute little thing but kinda
>>>>> pricey, about $90 IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> Lawsy, so quick! :) Thanks, guys.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> dadiOH
>>>
>>> OK, guys, 'splain me sumthin...
>>>
>>> Will this device help me with my kitchen door project?
>>>
>>> The 1/4" grooves for the panels are cut. The next phase is to cut the
>>> stub tenons on the rails. The joints are offset such there will be a
>>> ~1/8" reveal on the back of the door and 3/8" on the front. The tenons
>>> will be 1/2" in length.
>>>
>>> (Maybe I should have cut the tenons first, and then matched the groove to
>>> them, but it's too late for that now.)
>>>
>>> Will this device help me set up dado so that I will get a perfect tenon?
>>> Since I have to do the tenons with 2 separate set-ups due to the offset,
>>> frankly, I'm a tad nervous. If I get the first side wrong, I'm screwed.
>>>
>>> A device (or a suggestion) for getting perfect offset tenons to fit
>>> pre-existing grooves would really help get me back on track.
>>
>> No, the kerf maker is only used to cut a grove or dado to the width of the
>> piece it will receive.
>> Bridge City does however also make a tenon maker.
>> http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tm-1-tenonmaker-1.html
>
> No, I don't think that will help.
>
>> That said, I don't know it it will solve your issue. Have you tried
>> drawing the set up to see what needs to be cut and where?
>
> As I was typing up an explanation of what I thought my problem was, I
> think I came up with a solution. You know all of this already, but I'll
> spell it out so you'll know where my head was at.
>
> Let's say I wanted to center my panel in the 3/4" frame. I'd cut a
> perfectly centered groove, using the 2 pass, flip-the-board-end-to-end
> method. Then I'd cut my centered tenon on a rail, making it too big, then
> sneaking up on the final thickness by taking a little off both sides
> until it fit snug in the groove. Once the blade height was correct, I
> could cut 10,000 centered tenons without changing the set-up and they
> would all fit perfectly.
>
> However, since my groove is not centered (by design), I need 2 blade
> heights for the tenon: one for the 1/8" shoulder and one for the 3/8"
> shoulder. Theoretically, I should just be able to set the dado blade to
> 1/8", cut all 110 1/8" shoulders, then reset the dado to 3/8", flip the
> boards and cut the 110 3/8" shoulders. As we all know, theory-created
> tenons always fit perfectly, but practice-created tenons might not.
>
> At first I couldn't think of a way to test the blade set ups because of
> the offset groove, then I came up with this:
>
> If I turn a groove into a rabbet on a spare stile, I will remove the
> obstruction and can then test one of the shoulders for a flush fit with
> the face of the frame. Once I have that height, I can cut that side of
> the 110 tenons. Then I can sneak-up on the other side (the 1/8" shoulder)
> until it fits snug in the groove. Once I have that height, I can finish
> the 110 tenons and they'll all be perfect. :-)
>
> This picture explains what I mean. It's seems pretty simple now that I've
> thought of it, and it's probably old hat to you guys, but to me, it's all brand new.
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/OffsetTenon_zpsawdowuog.jpg

Exactly. :--). Now all you/and I have to do is figure out a way to
consistently cut all the tenon pieces to fit even when the rail has an ever
so slight bow or a rail from another board that for some reason or another
just happens to be 1/128" thicker or thinner than the rest. :-)
Oh! One more hint. Always test the fit on the actual end of the stile
where the rail will fit. IF you test fit in the groove in the middle of
the stile the groove may not be the same width as at the ends. This is
pretty common if your stiles are not perfectly flat when cutting a
"centered" groove.

On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 5:43:49 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 2:03:40 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> >> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >>> Anyone remember the name of the device? Cute little thing but kinda=
=20
> >>> pricey, about $90 IIRC.
> >>=20
> >> Lawsy, so quick! :) Thanks, guys.
> >>=20
> >>=20
> >> --=20
> >>=20
> >> dadiOH
> >=20
> > OK, guys, 'splain me sumthin...
> >=20
> > Will this device help me with my kitchen door project?
> >=20
> > The 1/4" grooves for the panels are cut. The next phase is to cut the
> > stub tenons on the rails. The joints are offset such there will be a
> > ~1/8" reveal on the back of the door and 3/8" on the front. The tenons
> > will be 1/2" in length.
> >=20
> > (Maybe I should have cut the tenons first, and then matched the groove =
to
> > them, but it's too late for that now.)
> >=20
> > Will this device help me set up dado so that I will get a perfect tenon=
?
> > Since I have to do the tenons with 2 separate set-ups due to the offset=
,
> > frankly, I'm a tad nervous. If I get the first side wrong, I'm screwed.=
=20
> >=20
> > A device (or a suggestion) for getting perfect offset tenons to fit
> > pre-existing grooves would really help get me back on track.
>=20
> No, the kerf maker is only used to cut a grove or dado to the width of th=
e
> piece it will receive.=20
> Bridge City does however also make a tenon maker. =20
> http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tm-1-tenonmaker-1.html

No, I don't think that will help.
=20
> That said, I don't know it it will solve your issue. Have you tried
> drawing the set up to see what needs to be cut and where?

As I was typing up an explanation of what I thought my problem was, I think=
I came up with a solution. You know all of this already, but I'll spell it=
out so you'll know where my head was at.

Let's say I wanted to center my panel in the 3/4" frame. I'd cut a perfectl=
y centered groove, using the 2 pass, flip-the-board-end-to-end method. Then=
I'd cut my centered tenon on a rail, making it too big, then sneaking up o=
n the final thickness by taking a little off both sides until it fit snug i=
n the groove. Once the blade height was correct, I could cut 10,000 centere=
d tenons without changing the set-up and they would all fit perfectly.

However, since my groove is not centered (by design), I need 2 blade height=
s for the tenon: one for the 1/8" shoulder and one for the 3/8" shoulder. T=
heoretically, I should just be able to set the dado blade to 1/8", cut all =
110 1/8" shoulders, then reset the dado to 3/8", flip the boards and cut th=
e 110 3/8" shoulders. As we all know, theory-created tenons always fit perf=
ectly, but practice-created tenons might not.

At first I couldn't think of a way to test the blade set ups because of the=
offset groove, then I came up with this:

If I turn a groove into a rabbet on a spare stile, I will remove the obstru=
ction and can then test one of the shoulders for a flush fit with the face =
of the frame. Once I have that height, I can cut that side of the 110 tenon=
s. Then I can sneak-up on the other side (the 1/8" shoulder) until it fits =
snug in the groove. Once I have that height, I can finish the 110 tenons an=
d they'll all be perfect. :-)

This picture explains what I mean. It's seems pretty simple now that I've t=
hought of it, and it's probably old hat to you guys, but to me, it's all br=
and new.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/OffsetTenon_zpsawdowuog=
.jpg

On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 5:30:57 AM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > The 1/4" grooves for the panels are cut. The next phase is to cut the
> > stub tenons on the rails. The joints are offset such there will be a
> > ~1/8" reveal on the back of the door and 3/8" on the front. The tenons
> > will be 1/2" in length.
>
> > Will this device help me set up dado so that I will get a perfect
> > tenon? Since I have to do the tenons with 2 separate set-ups due to
> > the offset, frankly, I'm a tad nervous. If I get the first side wrong,
> > I'm screwed.
>
> Not totally sure I'm visualizing your problem correctly, but
> I think if I were doing it I'd want one setting for the dado
> blade, and use a spacer under the piece to make the shallower
> cut. Using a piece of scrap and some trial and error to get
> the thickness of the spacer right.
>
> Of course, what I'd probably actually do is just cut the tenons
> a tad fat, and shave them to fit with a shoulder plane. But
> if I had a whole lot to make, it'd be worth the time to make
> the spacer and cut them precisely.
>
> John

Thanks, John.

My subsequent post includes a picture of the offset tenon I need, along the method I was considering. However, you method has merit also.

Please take a look at this picture and let me know what you think.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/OffsetTenon_zpsawdowuog.jpg

On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 11:28:51 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 3/10/2015 9:46 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 10:01:42 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
> >> On 3/10/2015 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
> >>> Exactly. :--). Now all you/and I have to do is figure out a way to
> >>> consistently cut all the tenon pieces to fit even when the rail has a=
n ever
> >>> so slight bow or a rail from another board that for some reason or an=
other
> >>> just happens to be 1/128" thicker or thinner than the rest.
> >>
> >> When you paint yourself into this kind of corner, either use a router
> >> table and one of the many rail/stile/tenon cutting bits available, or
> >> expect to take forever getting the job done satisfactorily.
> >>
> >> AKA why we learned to always center our panels when cutting _stub teno=
n_
> >> doors on the table saw. :)
> >>
> >
> > Yeah, but there is on more factor, something I mentioned in an earlier =
post related to this project:
> >
> > When I built a prototype door with a centered panel, neither SWMBO nor =
I like the looked. My brother had his kitchen re-done and he has the offset=
panels. We *really* liked that look and are trying to replicate it. We eve=
n went to the Borg to look at all the shaker style option and the offset pa=
nel consistently won.
> >
> > I'll see what I can do on the TS and if I can't get it to work, I'll tr=
y the router table route. I know it's more work and will take more time, bu=
t time I've got. :-)
> >
> >
> Cutting a grove on the edge of rails and stiles off center is just a=20
> little more trouble than centered and so is cutting the stub tenons.
>=20
> Instead of making a pass and flipping the board and making another pass=
=20
> for the groves you simply run all pieces through one time, adjust the=20
> fence, and run them through again in the same direction. Done. Use a=20
> scrap for set up.

Actually, I was recently gifted an Amana dado set. With the set I was able =
to cut the 1/4" groove in a single pass. The groove fits the 1/4" MDF that =
I will be using perfectly. Note: the 1/4" MDF from HD is not 1/4" (7/32-ish=
) The 1/4" MDF from the lumber yard where I bought the poplar is 1/4" and f=
its the dado set grooves perfectly.

>=20
> The stub tenons are basically done the same way, cut one side on both=20
> ends first and on a scrap, adjust dado blade height and check on the=20
> scrap, then cut the opposite side of the rail on both sides. Done.

I think the method described in this picture is the same as what you are sa=
ying in your text. As they used to say on my high school essay exams, pleas=
e compare and contrast.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/OffsetTenon_zpsawdowuog=
.jpg=20

>=20
>=20
> I can't see how there would be any advantage to using a straight bit on=
=20
> a router table vs. a dado blade on a TS unless using Rail and Stile=20
> router bits which tend to fit together regardless because there is no=20
> adjustment other than height location.
>=20
> The big issue with both the TS and router table methods is if the wood=20
> is not exactly the same thickness or if the wood is not perfectly flat.
> It should be obvious why different thickness brings up an issue but if=20
> the wood is not flat it will cause tenons to be shallow on the bottom=20
> side if the wood bows up in the middle. If the wood is not dead flat=20
> against the work surface at the cutter the cut is going to be off.
>=20
> You are looking for a perfect fit on these type joints, even being off=20
> 1/256" will result in a less than desirable fit. If the joints do not=20
> hold together with out glue they are probably too loose and if you have=
=20
> to use a hammer to close the joint they are too tight.
>=20
> Also, as I have brought up in the past, the quality of your blades or=20
> cutters can affect your results. Yeah the cheaper dado blades and=20
> regular blades can get the job done. The better blades result in less=20
> tear out. Tear out can wrap around the end of a board and raise it=20
> causing a slight gap between the table surface and the face of the=20
> board. Even excess dust on the table surface or board surface can cause=
=20
> problems.

I assume the Amana set is one of the "better blades".

>=20
> Now having said that these joints typically still work if a bit less=20
> than perfect. Mine are not all perfect for reasons I have listed and=20
> the relative moisture content of a board can throw off thickness enough=
=20
> to cause an inconsistency in board thickness. But add wood glue to a=20
> loose fit joint and the wood tends to swell and the fit becomes better.

That's my hope: Maybe not perfect, but tight enough to work and to last. Th=
e fact that they will be painted should allow for slightly less than perfec=
t to suffice from a visual perspective, anyway.

On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 3:52:44 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > That's my hope: Maybe not perfect, but tight enough to work and to
> > last. The fact that they will be painted should allow for slightly
> > less than perfect to suffice from a visual perspective, anyway.
>
>
> I know you are filled with angs tbut it will be easier than you think and
> all will work well. Face it: cabinet doors - (MOST cabinet doors) - aren't
> stressed beyond opening and closing. If the tongue goes in the groove
> without major rattling and if you use glue, they will hold together.
>
>

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll never know how this will turn out unless I actually put blade to wood and I also know that things rarely turn out as bad as we think they will.

Besides, this isn't rocket surgery. It's just wood and wood can be re-bought and re-cut if things go terribly bad. I'm bound to get *some* of them right. For the others, well, spring is coming and the fire pit is beginning to thaw out. ;-)

On 03/09/2015 10:36 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> A while back - 2-4 years? - someone posted about a commercial gizmo (made
> from aluminum) that was used to compensate for blade thickness when cutting
> half laps, grooves, etc. on a saw.
>
> Basically, one set it to the thickness of the wood for which one was cutting
> a groove, made one cut, flipped the device and made the next cut, thus
> outlining the area. "Flipped" because that end had a way to adjust for
> blade thickness.
>
> Anyone remember the name of the device? Cute little thing but kinda pricey,
> about $90 IIRC.
>
> Thanks
>
>

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/km-1-kerfmaker.html

On 03/09/2015 12:10 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 13:36:42 -0400
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Anyone remember the name of the device? Cute little thing but kinda
>
> was a thread here on a homemade one of these with a link to the vid
>


Yup, just google "kerfmaker".

On 3/10/2015 9:01 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/10/2015 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
>> Exactly. :--). Now all you/and I have to do is figure out a way to
>> consistently cut all the tenon pieces to fit even when the rail has an
>> ever
>> so slight bow or a rail from another board that for some reason or
>> another
>> just happens to be 1/128" thicker or thinner than the rest.
>
> When you paint yourself into this kind of corner, either use a router
> table and one of the many rail/stile/tenon cutting bits available, or
> expect to take forever getting the job done satisfactorily

>
> AKA why we learned to always center our panels when cutting _stub tenon_
> doors on the table saw. :)
>

Cutting centered groves on the TS works well if the stock is all
consistent in thickness and perfectly flat.

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 2:03:40 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
>> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Anyone remember the name of the device? Cute little thing but kinda
>>> pricey, about $90 IIRC.
>>
>> Lawsy, so quick! :) Thanks, guys.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> dadiOH
>
> OK, guys, 'splain me sumthin...
>
> Will this device help me with my kitchen door project?
>
> The 1/4" grooves for the panels are cut. The next phase is to cut the
> stub tenons on the rails. The joints are offset such there will be a
> ~1/8" reveal on the back of the door and 3/8" on the front. The tenons
> will be 1/2" in length.
>
> (Maybe I should have cut the tenons first, and then matched the groove to
> them, but it's too late for that now.)
>
> Will this device help me set up dado so that I will get a perfect tenon?
> Since I have to do the tenons with 2 separate set-ups due to the offset,
> frankly, I'm a tad nervous. If I get the first side wrong, I'm screwed.
>
> A device (or a suggestion) for getting perfect offset tenons to fit
> pre-existing grooves would really help get me back on track.

No, the kerf maker is only used to cut a grove or dado to the width of the
piece it will receive.
Bridge City does however also make a tenon maker.
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tm-1-tenonmaker-1.html

That said, I don't know it it will solve your issue. Have you tried
drawing the set up to see what needs to be cut and where?

On 3/10/2015 3:38 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> Besides, this isn't rocket surgery. It's just wood and wood can be re-bought and re-cut if things go terribly bad. I'm bound to get*some* of them right. For the others, well, spring is coming and the fire pit is beginning to thaw out.;-)

When it come to making doors, methods can be cussed and discussed, but
the two most important elements have little to do with methods:

Stock _selection_ (knowing which wood to use for doors, along with the
way it was cut from the log, both key to stock that is less likely to
warp, bow or twist).

And stock _preparation_ (consistency in thickness and flatness), are the
two mandatory elements to successfully building doors (and the reason
why we own jointers and planers).

More so than most any other woodworking endeavor, and much more so than
the method used.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 3/10/2015 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
> Exactly. :--). Now all you/and I have to do is figure out a way to
> consistently cut all the tenon pieces to fit even when the rail has an ever
> so slight bow or a rail from another board that for some reason or another
> just happens to be 1/128" thicker or thinner than the rest.

When you paint yourself into this kind of corner, either use a router
table and one of the many rail/stile/tenon cutting bits available, or
expect to take forever getting the job done satisfactorily.

AKA why we learned to always center our panels when cutting _stub tenon_
doors on the table saw. :)

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> The 1/4" grooves for the panels are cut. The next phase is to cut the
> stub tenons on the rails. The joints are offset such there will be a
> ~1/8" reveal on the back of the door and 3/8" on the front. The tenons
> will be 1/2" in length.

> Will this device help me set up dado so that I will get a perfect
> tenon? Since I have to do the tenons with 2 separate set-ups due to
> the offset, frankly, I'm a tad nervous. If I get the first side wrong,
> I'm screwed.

Not totally sure I'm visualizing your problem correctly, but
I think if I were doing it I'd want one setting for the dado
blade, and use a spacer under the piece to make the shallower
cut. Using a piece of scrap and some trial and error to get
the thickness of the spacer right.

Of course, what I'd probably actually do is just cut the tenons
a tad fat, and shave them to fit with a shoulder plane. But
if I had a whole lot to make, it'd be worth the time to make
the spacer and cut them precisely.

John

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 11:28:51 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:

>> But add wood glue to a
>> loose fit joint and the wood tends to swell and the fit becomes
>> better.
>
> That's my hope: Maybe not perfect, but tight enough to work and to
> last.

If the tenon is thin enough that you're worried about it,
just stuff in a plane shaving or some similarly thin shim
when you glue it up.

John

DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Besides, this isn't rocket surgery. It's just wood and wood can be
> re-bought and re-cut if things go terribly bad. I'm bound to get
> *some* of them right. For the others, well, spring is coming and the
> fire pit is beginning to thaw out. ;-)

The mark of a craftsman is being able to fix his mistakes...

John

On 3/10/2015 3:31 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 4:01:18 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/10/2015 12:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 11:28:51 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>> Snip
>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, as I have brought up in the past, the quality of your blades or
>>>> cutters can affect your results. Yeah the cheaper dado blades and
>>>> regular blades can get the job done. The better blades result in less
>>>> tear out. Tear out can wrap around the end of a board and raise it
>>>> causing a slight gap between the table surface and the face of the
>>>> board. Even excess dust on the table surface or board surface can cause
>>>> problems.
>>>
>>> I assume the Amana set is one of the "better blades".
>>
>> Your results and how long it performs well will be the indicator. Amana
>> is certainly a good brand but like most brands there are varying degrees
>> of quality.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Now having said that these joints typically still work if a bit less
>>>> than perfect. Mine are not all perfect for reasons I have listed and
>>>> the relative moisture content of a board can throw off thickness enough
>>>> to cause an inconsistency in board thickness. But add wood glue to a
>>>> loose fit joint and the wood tends to swell and the fit becomes better.
>>>
>>> That's my hope: Maybe not perfect, but tight enough to work and to last. The fact that they will be painted should allow for slightly less than perfect to suffice from a visual perspective, anyway.
>>
>> Slightly snug with out glue is what you are shooting for. I have
>> certainly had my share of questionable joints that were on the loose
>> side but none have failed.
>> Because looser fitting joints don't fit tightly to begin with the joints
>> typically need more cleanup and sanding after glue up.
>>
>> It pays to be anal. ;~)
>
> Oh, trust me...I know about anal. That's why this is taking me so long.
>
> Ya know, I still have some West Systems epoxy and 404 filler from my Derby racing days. If the tenons don't fit I'll just lop 'em off and make new ones out of epoxy. ;-)
>
You will be fine, just practice on same thickness and wood scraps.
There is not much more you can do after you have the set up fine tuned.

On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 10:01:42 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/10/2015 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
> > Exactly. :--). Now all you/and I have to do is figure out a way to
> > consistently cut all the tenon pieces to fit even when the rail has an =
ever
> > so slight bow or a rail from another board that for some reason or anot=
her
> > just happens to be 1/128" thicker or thinner than the rest.
>=20
> When you paint yourself into this kind of corner, either use a router=20
> table and one of the many rail/stile/tenon cutting bits available, or=20
> expect to take forever getting the job done satisfactorily.
>=20
> AKA why we learned to always center our panels when cutting _stub tenon_=
=20
> doors on the table saw. :)
>=20

Yeah, but there is on more factor, something I mentioned in an earlier post=
related to this project:

When I built a prototype door with a centered panel, neither SWMBO nor I li=
ke the looked. My brother had his kitchen re-done and he has the offset pan=
els. We *really* liked that look and are trying to replicate it. We even we=
nt to the Borg to look at all the shaker style option and the offset panel =
consistently won.

I'll see what I can do on the TS and if I can't get it to work, I'll try th=
e router table route. I know it's more work and will take more time, but ti=
me I've got. :-)

On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 4:01:18 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 3/10/2015 12:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 11:28:51 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>
>
> Snip
>
> >>
> >> Also, as I have brought up in the past, the quality of your blades or
> >> cutters can affect your results. Yeah the cheaper dado blades and
> >> regular blades can get the job done. The better blades result in less
> >> tear out. Tear out can wrap around the end of a board and raise it
> >> causing a slight gap between the table surface and the face of the
> >> board. Even excess dust on the table surface or board surface can cause
> >> problems.
> >
> > I assume the Amana set is one of the "better blades".
>
> Your results and how long it performs well will be the indicator. Amana
> is certainly a good brand but like most brands there are varying degrees
> of quality.
>
>
> >>
> >> Now having said that these joints typically still work if a bit less
> >> than perfect. Mine are not all perfect for reasons I have listed and
> >> the relative moisture content of a board can throw off thickness enough
> >> to cause an inconsistency in board thickness. But add wood glue to a
> >> loose fit joint and the wood tends to swell and the fit becomes better.
> >
> > That's my hope: Maybe not perfect, but tight enough to work and to last. The fact that they will be painted should allow for slightly less than perfect to suffice from a visual perspective, anyway.
>
> Slightly snug with out glue is what you are shooting for. I have
> certainly had my share of questionable joints that were on the loose
> side but none have failed.
> Because looser fitting joints don't fit tightly to begin with the joints
> typically need more cleanup and sanding after glue up.
>
> It pays to be anal. ;~)

Oh, trust me...I know about anal. That's why this is taking me so long.

Ya know, I still have some West Systems epoxy and 404 filler from my Derby racing days. If the tenons don't fit I'll just lop 'em off and make new ones out of epoxy. ;-)

On Monday, March 9, 2015 at 2:03:40 PM UTC-4, dadiOH wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Anyone remember the name of the device? Cute little thing but kinda
> > pricey, about $90 IIRC.
>
> Lawsy, so quick! :) Thanks, guys.
>
>
> --
>
> dadiOH

OK, guys, 'splain me sumthin...

Will this device help me with my kitchen door project?

The 1/4" grooves for the panels are cut. The next phase is to cut the stub tenons on the rails. The joints are offset such there will be a ~1/8" reveal on the back of the door and 3/8" on the front. The tenons will be 1/2" in length.

(Maybe I should have cut the tenons first, and then matched the groove to them, but it's too late for that now.)

Will this device help me set up dado so that I will get a perfect tenon? Since I have to do the tenons with 2 separate set-ups due to the offset, frankly, I'm a tad nervous. If I get the first side wrong, I'm screwed.

A device (or a suggestion) for getting perfect offset tenons to fit pre-existing grooves would really help get me back on track.

On 3/10/2015 9:46 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 10:01:42 AM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
>> On 3/10/2015 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> Exactly. :--). Now all you/and I have to do is figure out a way to
>>> consistently cut all the tenon pieces to fit even when the rail has an ever
>>> so slight bow or a rail from another board that for some reason or another
>>> just happens to be 1/128" thicker or thinner than the rest.
>>
>> When you paint yourself into this kind of corner, either use a router
>> table and one of the many rail/stile/tenon cutting bits available, or
>> expect to take forever getting the job done satisfactorily.
>>
>> AKA why we learned to always center our panels when cutting _stub tenon_
>> doors on the table saw. :)
>>
>
> Yeah, but there is on more factor, something I mentioned in an earlier post related to this project:
>
> When I built a prototype door with a centered panel, neither SWMBO nor I like the looked. My brother had his kitchen re-done and he has the offset panels. We *really* liked that look and are trying to replicate it. We even went to the Borg to look at all the shaker style option and the offset panel consistently won.
>
> I'll see what I can do on the TS and if I can't get it to work, I'll try the router table route. I know it's more work and will take more time, but time I've got. :-)
>
>
Cutting a grove on the edge of rails and stiles off center is just a
little more trouble than centered and so is cutting the stub tenons.

Instead of making a pass and flipping the board and making another pass
for the groves you simply run all pieces through one time, adjust the
fence, and run them through again in the same direction. Done. Use a
scrap for set up.

The stub tenons are basically done the same way, cut one side on both
ends first and on a scrap, adjust dado blade height and check on the
scrap, then cut the opposite side of the rail on both sides. Done.


I can't see how there would be any advantage to using a straight bit on
a router table vs. a dado blade on a TS unless using Rail and Stile
router bits which tend to fit together regardless because there is no
adjustment other than height location.

The big issue with both the TS and router table methods is if the wood
is not exactly the same thickness or if the wood is not perfectly flat.
It should be obvious why different thickness brings up an issue but if
the wood is not flat it will cause tenons to be shallow on the bottom
side if the wood bows up in the middle. If the wood is not dead flat
against the work surface at the cutter the cut is going to be off.

You are looking for a perfect fit on these type joints, even being off
1/256" will result in a less than desirable fit. If the joints do not
hold together with out glue they are probably too loose and if you have
to use a hammer to close the joint they are too tight.

Also, as I have brought up in the past, the quality of your blades or
cutters can affect your results. Yeah the cheaper dado blades and
regular blades can get the job done. The better blades result in less
tear out. Tear out can wrap around the end of a board and raise it
causing a slight gap between the table surface and the face of the
board. Even excess dust on the table surface or board surface can cause
problems.

Now having said that these joints typically still work if a bit less
than perfect. Mine are not all perfect for reasons I have listed and
the relative moisture content of a board can throw off thickness enough
to cause an inconsistency in board thickness. But add wood glue to a
loose fit joint and the wood tends to swell and the fit becomes better.

On 3/10/2015 12:08 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 11:28:51 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:


Snip

>>
>> Also, as I have brought up in the past, the quality of your blades or
>> cutters can affect your results. Yeah the cheaper dado blades and
>> regular blades can get the job done. The better blades result in less
>> tear out. Tear out can wrap around the end of a board and raise it
>> causing a slight gap between the table surface and the face of the
>> board. Even excess dust on the table surface or board surface can cause
>> problems.
>
> I assume the Amana set is one of the "better blades".

Your results and how long it performs well will be the indicator. Amana
is certainly a good brand but like most brands there are varying degrees
of quality.


>>
>> Now having said that these joints typically still work if a bit less
>> than perfect. Mine are not all perfect for reasons I have listed and
>> the relative moisture content of a board can throw off thickness enough
>> to cause an inconsistency in board thickness. But add wood glue to a
>> loose fit joint and the wood tends to swell and the fit becomes better.
>
> That's my hope: Maybe not perfect, but tight enough to work and to last. The fact that they will be painted should allow for slightly less than perfect to suffice from a visual perspective, anyway.

Slightly snug with out glue is what you are shooting for. I have
certainly had my share of questionable joints that were on the loose
side but none have failed.
Because looser fitting joints don't fit tightly to begin with the joints
typically need more cleanup and sanding after glue up.

It pays to be anal. ;~)

On 3/9/2015 12:36 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> A while back - 2-4 years? - someone posted about a commercial gizmo (made
> from aluminum) that was used to compensate for blade thickness when cutting
> half laps, grooves, etc. on a saw.
>
> Basically, one set it to the thickness of the wood for which one was cutting
> a groove, made one cut, flipped the device and made the next cut, thus
> outlining the area. "Flipped" because that end had a way to adjust for
> blade thickness.
>
> Anyone remember the name of the device? Cute little thing but kinda pricey,
> about $90 IIRC.

Had to walk out to the shop to check the name and Doug beat me to it.

My unifence fence doesn't seem to allow the kind of accuracy I was
hoping to get with the tool because of the slight backlash when locking
the fence.

Leon uses his more that I have, with apparently good results.

--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Anyone remember the name of the device? Cute little thing but kinda
> pricey, about $90 IIRC.

Lawsy, so quick! :) Thanks, guys.


--

dadiOH

On Mon, 9 Mar 2015 13:36:42 -0400
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Anyone remember the name of the device? Cute little thing but kinda

was a thread here on a homemade one of these with a link to the vid

DerbyDad03 wrote:

> That's my hope: Maybe not perfect, but tight enough to work and to
> last. The fact that they will be painted should allow for slightly
> less than perfect to suffice from a visual perspective, anyway.


I know you are filled with angs tbut it will be easier than you think and
all will work well. Face it: cabinet doors - (MOST cabinet doors) - aren't
stressed beyond opening and closing. If the tongue goes in the groove
without major rattling and if you use glue, they will hold together.


--

dadiOH
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