FS 30% off summer sale lots of cool planes and new tools to see.

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:21:26 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
wrote about Steve Knight's post:

>It's spam.


no, it isnt.

http://www.netlingo.com/lookup.cfm?term=spam

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:24:57 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
>see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
>Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>
>Chris
>

You're new here, aren't ya?

Steve's been contributing to this group for several years, with an
occasional plug for his beautiful handmade tools, considerately marked
with a "FS" in the subject line so that hypersensitive types can
easily filter them out. Assuming they can figure out how to set up a
filter.

Personally, I'm very glad to see Steve having a sale. I might actually
be able to scrape up enough dough to buy something. Kinda wish I
hadn't just bought that 60GB drive...


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
"I always wanted to be somebody. I should have been more specific..."

> > And that it is bad edict.
> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

http://www.m-w.com/

Main Entry: edict
Pronunciation: 'E-"dikt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin edictum, from neuter of edictus,
past participle of edicere to decree, from e- + dicere to say -- more at
DICTION
1 : a proclamation having the force of law
2 : ORDER, COMMAND <we held firm to Grandmother's edict -- M. F. K.
Fisher>
- edic·tal /i-'dik-t&l/ adjective

Alex
P.S. we need to get a rope for Chris pretty soon...
can anyone make hangman's noose here?

Main Entry: noose
Pronunciation: 'nüs, British also 'nüz
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English nose, perhaps of Provençal origin;
akin to Provençal nous knot, from Latin nodus -- more at NODE
1 : a loop with a running knot that binds closer the more it is drawn
2 : something that snares like a noose

LOLOLOL!!! Princess Bride is one of my favorite films! Good one....
:-)

Layne

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:04:24 -0400, Mike Patterson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>Dave Hinz wrote:
><<SNIP>>
>>
>>>And that it is bad edict.
>>
>>
>> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
>>
>
>Inconceiveable!
>
><<SNIP>>
>
>> Better now?
>> Dave Hinz
>>
>

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:24:57 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ?

Since people posted ads to it, ads that were relevant and
_interesting_ to the other readers of the n.g.

I don't much hold with the "paid his dues" argument. Either the ads
are worth looking at, or they're not. If someone just wants to plug
yet another eBay drop-shipper, I don't care if it's Charlie Self
posting them - that's the same boring stuff I'm already knee-deep in.

For Steve's planes though, I'm always happy to read of them, even
though there's no likelihood of me buying another any time soon.
They're interesting tools and they even count as high-end woodworking
in their own right.

If Delta / Ferm / Chiwanese box-shifter do something genuinely _new_
and worth reading, then I wish they'd post that too - even though it's
"commercial". I don't care who is doing this, or why they're doing it,
I just care what the end result is and whether it's worth my time to
see it. After all, even Viagra was a news story once - now it's just a
blockage in my inbox.

And I know I'm not the only one who reads the Lee Valley catalogue in
bed.


--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:24:57 GMT, Chris Melanson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
> see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
> Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.

As rabid as I am about being anti-spam, his contributions vastly
outweigh his very occasional ads. The ones I take exception to are
the ones who pop in, post a "Hey, buy my crap" message, and use the
group only for that.

I was here a while before I realized that this guy, in addition to
knowing a lot about what he does, also sells stuff.

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:41:25 GMT, Bob N <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I tried to plane a rabbit once, but by the time I got two sides flat there wasn't much
> left and it took a lot of work. Next time I'll use a jig on the table saw,

Naah, that doesn't work either, they get all squirrely on you.

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:19:54 GMT, Chris Melanson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Please re read my last post and try and understand my point.
> I asked " How would you like that if the Borg started advertising there
> sales here?" not that they were going to so there is no rambling at all.

Why bring it up then, Chris?

> I stated that to me there is no difference between the two forms of
> advertisement. Self promoting is still self promoting no mater who dose it.

There is a great deal of difference between "Hi, you don't know me,
buy my crap", and a regular, helpful individual telling a group he
actively helps that a product they're interested in is available.

> And that it is bad edict.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

> What part did you not understand? Let me know so I can be perfectly clear.

The thing that's unclear, is your understanding of this group's
tolerance for this type of post, I think. I'll make it simple:

For sale ad from non-contributor: unwelcome
For sale ad from participating, helpful, knowledgeable member of group: OK

Better now?
Dave Hinz

Dave Hinz wrote:
<<SNIP>>
>
>>And that it is bad edict.
>
>
> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
>

Inconceiveable!

<<SNIP>>

> Better now?
> Dave Hinz
>

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:21:26 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 29 Jul 2004 22:07:22 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Why bring it up then, Chris?
>
> It's spam. I personally don't care, but it is spam. Why don't you
> give the guy a break. Lord knows you of all people should be a little
> compassionate.

Me of all people? Where are you going with _that_, Jay? Might this
have something to do with the email filtering service that I subscribe to?

>>There is a great deal of difference between "Hi, you don't know me,
>>buy my crap", and a regular, helpful individual telling a group he
>>actively helps that a product they're interested in is available.
>
> What's the accepted helpful post to spam ratio by which we should rate
> people?

Apparently, Mr. Knight's ratio is beyond that, by the looks of the group.
Someone's analysis showed his ratio is 50:1 or 500:1 or something. Not
a lot of people are 50 parts signal to 1 part noise.

>>> And that it is bad edict.

>>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

> No points - already been brought up.

It's a humerous reference to a line used in a movie, inserted to keep
things to get too heavy.

>>For sale ad from non-contributor: unwelcome
>
> Spam.

Right.

>>For sale ad from participating, helpful, knowledgeable member of group: OK

> Spam.

Apparently your personal opinion is counter to the group concensus here.

>>Better now?
>
> Are you? The rules are there are no rules. Maybe we should all shun
> him now?

Which "him"? You can killfile anyone you want, that's the beauty of
a well-written newsreading app.

By the way, have you read the rec.woodworking charter, specifically
how advertisements are handled in that document?

Dave Hinz

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:16:15 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 30 Jul 2004 15:40:05 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Me of all people? Where are you going with _that_, Jay? Might this
>>have something to do with the email filtering service that I subscribe to?
>
> No - has nothing to do with spamcop. I just figured since you catch a
> lot of heat here that you might not feel the need to pile on others.

I don't notice myself getting a particular amount of heat, oddly enough.
But even if I do/did, why should that make me not want to express my
opinion?

>>It's a humerous reference to a line used in a movie, inserted to keep
>>things to get too heavy.
>
> You've got an interesting sense of balance.

If you don't care for my posts, there's an easy solution.

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:03:45 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 30 Jul 2004 16:22:53 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I don't notice myself getting a particular amount of heat, oddly enough.
>>But even if I do/did, why should that make me not want to express my
>>opinion?
>
> And mine as well. You're a weird dude. Enjoy your life.

Um, right.

>>>>It's a humerous reference to a line used in a movie, inserted to keep
>>>>things to get too heavy.
>>>
>>> You've got an interesting sense of balance.
>>
>>If you don't care for my posts, there's an easy solution.
>
> Indeed. It's almost as if you relish the idea. How's that job in
> Norway coming along for me?

The person I forwarded your message to expressed concern about
your name apparently changing. I'm guessing from your question that
he chose not to contact you, although I have noticed that it's not
unusual for Norwegians to have a much more casual attitude about
speedy responses. I don't feel that it's appropriate to rush him,
so I won't be.

In article <[email protected]>,
Mike Patterson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>Dave Hinz wrote:
><<SNIP>>
>>
>>>And that it is bad edict.
>>
>>
>> You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
>>
>
>Inconceiveable!

Not to mention 'unbearable', and 'insurmountable'.

there are no rules to posting here and regardless of what you or anyone else
thinks Steve has every right to post whatever he wants.

As everyone else has made very clear (especially Mr. Clarke with his telling
statistics), Steve has followed every accepted practice as far as that goes.
By putting the "FS" in the header, he gave you fair warning.

So kiss off and get a life.

i disagree. i, for one, appreciate steve's postings, whether to
advertise his incredible products or to respond to someone's questions.

steve, keep it up, and please continue to add value to the newsgroup.

--- dz



Chris Melanson wrote:

> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
> see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
> Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>
> Chris
>
>

Chris with all due respect, in the nicest way possible, increase your fiber
intake, install a filter, listen to some enya, and start doing Yoga.
you'll thank me in the long run

I looked over Steve's site and I didn't see any Rabbit planes, dose anybody
know if he makes them?


Paul in MN wrote:

> I have to second that. It is not as if he is bulk spamming the group and
> more often than selling he is helping with valuable info.
>
> P.
>
> "David Zaret" <news@__REMOVE__zaret.com> wrote in message
> news:41086EA3.6050605@__REMOVE__zaret.com...
>> i disagree. i, for one, appreciate steve's postings, whether to
>> advertise his incredible products or to respond to someone's questions.
>>
>> steve, keep it up, and please continue to add value to the newsgroup.
>>
>> --- dz
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Melanson wrote:
>>
>> > Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You
>> > do
> not
>> > see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do
> you?
>> > Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> >

Chris Melanson wrote:
>
> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
> see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
> Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>
> Chris

Steve makes hand made woodworking tools, and good ones at that.
He, unlike many here, has been blessed to find a vocation that
is also his avocation. He'll never get rich (in dollars at least)
making planes. But he gets by (most of the time : )) and his planes
keep getting better and better. His planes are appreciated by those
who have them and lusted after by some who don't.

I don't know when he finds the time to participate and contribute
to this group but I'm grateful that he does. He's shared a lot of
what he's learned about sharpening methods and machines. So if
he occassionaly offers folks in this forum a deal on some of his
planes it's a Win-Win situation - he sells some planes, we save
some money. For me it's a double bomus - get a great tool at
a good price AND I get to support the arts : )

By shop owners I assume you mean cabinet and furniture shops.
Since this is a woodworking forum I'm guessing that most folks
are here to either learn how to make their own furniture or
share what they've learned about making same. So someone
advertising their cabinets and furniture would be "taking coal
to Newcastle" - probably not a profitable avenue to pursue.
Borg types don't make anything they sell so if they were to
advertise in this group it'd be ignored (as far as I know, there
is no "Thou SHALT read ALL messages posted to this forum"
"edict".)

Thanks for the opportunity to "plug" Steve's stuff!

charlie b
a patron of the arts

Greetings and Salutations...

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:19:54 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Please re read my last post and try and understand my point.
>I asked " How would you like that if the Borg started advertising there
>sales here?" not that they were going to so there is no rambling at all.
>I stated that to me there is no difference between the two forms of
>advertisement. Self promoting is still self promoting no mater who dose it.
>And that it is bad edict.
>What part did you not understand? Let me know so I can be perfectly clear.
>
>Chris
>
>
Looks like the long, hot summer is getting to EVERYONE.
WIthout jumping too far into the flame war...I glanced at the
ad, and, my first thought was "great...still can't afford them (heavy
sigh)". My first thought was NOT "How DARE he post a small notice
about fine woodworking tools to a forum devoted to working wood!"
Let's all take a chill pill, kick back with a tall, cool
drink, and just move on. The posting was small, within the guidelines
of commercial postings, and as others have pointed out, Knight has
been a good contributor to the group for a long time. I for one
have enjoyed hearing of his success in a niche field...and do think
he makes some really great tools, tools that combine utility and
beauty.
Regards
Dave Mundt

"Chris Melanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<d6_Nc.114476$Rf.1632@edtnps84>...
> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
> see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
> Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>
> Chris

I have to agree that Steve's FS posts rub me the wrong way. Every time
I see one, my wallet starts to unfold itself. I know in my heart that
I need to get some Knight planes, but the timing just hasn't ever been
right for me.

These posts cause me to waste a lot of time browsing Steve's site and
wondering what one of these planes really feels like. Would I like the
extra weight added? How does a real quality iron feel when you're
holding it? Could I really get the hang of the tap-to-adjust wedge
system? Am I worthy of such a nice plane? How will I get all the
shavings off my ceiling? Will I be able to see the shavings at all?

The worst thing is that he's always posting sales, which does nothing
but cause me more stress as it opens another door to cure my plane
envy forever. I, however have a tough time replacing tools that I
already have that work "ok," as my Stanley and Record planes do. I
just need to jump in some time and buy a couple...

-Mike

On 30 Jul 2004 16:22:53 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:16:15 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 30 Jul 2004 15:40:05 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Me of all people? Where are you going with _that_, Jay? Might this
>>>have something to do with the email filtering service that I subscribe to?
>>
>> No - has nothing to do with spamcop. I just figured since you catch a
>> lot of heat here that you might not feel the need to pile on others.
>
>I don't notice myself getting a particular amount of heat, oddly enough.
>But even if I do/did, why should that make me not want to express my
>opinion?

And mine as well. You're a weird dude. Enjoy your life.

>>>It's a humerous reference to a line used in a movie, inserted to keep
>>>things to get too heavy.
>>
>> You've got an interesting sense of balance.
>
>If you don't care for my posts, there's an easy solution.

Indeed. It's almost as if you relish the idea. How's that job in
Norway coming along for me?

JP

"Chris Melanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:d6_Nc.114476$Rf.1632@edtnps84...
> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do
not
> see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do
you?
> Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>
> Chris

Chris,
Steve is not advertising, he is offering us a bargain.

Steve is like family. Go back and look at the posts he makes here. Look at
some of the charitable things he has done. Steve is a generous person who
happens to make a small living making an item we can use. I, for one,
welcome his post no matte what the topic.
You may prefer to kill fill him, and that is your right to do so.
Ed

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:01:26 GMT, Steve Knight
<[email protected]> wrote:

>not as much as I used too. I have become so specialized I don't have as much to
>offer. I sure miss that. or everyone beats me too it (G)

I went to the site last night....still no infill planes??? :-( There's
got to be a good machinist around there somewhere....not that I can
afford that Japanese style infill yet, but it's nice knowing I could
get one if I had the money right now... :-) But, I may finally be able
to get a dovetail plane next month. :-)

Layne

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:43:45 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:21:26 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]>
>wrote about Steve Knight's post:
>
>>It's spam.
>
>
>no, it isnt.
>
>http://www.netlingo.com/lookup.cfm?term=spam

Gotcha.

JP

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:06:51 -0400, Mike Patterson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:24:57 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
>>see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
>>Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>>
>>Chris
>>

It has long been a rec.ww convention that such advertising by folks who
also contribute to the group is a reasonable and acceptable practice. Mike
at American Sycamore, Steve Knight, Ed Bennett and his TS Aligner, and
Robin Lee to name a few have all been acceptable postings because those
people also post advice regardless of whether they have a vested interest
in the question or not. Those who have not fared well nor been accepted
are those who drive-by post advertising without participating, or those who
under false pretenses make some reference to a vendor as if they
"discovered" said vendor when they are actually representing that vendor.


>
>You're new here, aren't ya?
>
>Steve's been contributing to this group for several years, with an
>occasional plug for his beautiful handmade tools, considerately marked
>with a "FS" in the subject line so that hypersensitive types can
>easily filter them out. Assuming they can figure out how to set up a
>filter.
>
>Personally, I'm very glad to see Steve having a sale. I might actually
>be able to scrape up enough dough to buy something. Kinda wish I
>hadn't just bought that 60GB drive...
>

Good luck to you scraping up the cash, believe me, it's worth it. I took
advantage of Steve's last sale and got one of his smoothers -- it has made
a significant difference in my being able to have success with a smoothing
plane. I still haven't gotten to the point of being able to eliminate the
use of sandpaper but I am getting there.

>
>Mike Patterson
>Please remove the spamtrap to email me.
>"I always wanted to be somebody. I should have been more specific..."

"Chris Melanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:d6_Nc.114476$Rf.1632@edtnps84...
> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do
not
> see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do
you?
> Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>
> Chris

Since when did you get elected moderator? For one, I think there's a big
difference between an "outsider" doing a drive-by commercial posting and a
10-year contributing member of the group posting some of his wares.
Overall, the group seems to tolerate FS and FA postings from regular
members.

todd

"Mike Patterson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Dave Hinz wrote:
> <<SNIP>>
> >
> >>And that it is bad edict.
> >
> >
> > You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it
means.
> >
>
> Inconceiveable!

Damnit, Mike, you beat me to the punch!.

todd

"Chris Melanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:y5%Nc.115289$Rf.80088@edtnps84...
<snip>

> To me there is no difference ok.

Well, it looks like you're the only one. To every other single response in
ths thread, there's a big f'ing difference. Are you starting to get a hint?
Here's an idea, since you seem to be alone in your having an issue with
Steve's posting, create a filter in your newsreader that rejects "FS"
postings.

Actually, when I read your first response, I had the distinct impression you
were a sockpuppet of one of the more disgruntled rec members who didn't have
anything better to do than register complaints.

todd

By the way, since you've generously allowed people other than Steve to refer
to his web site, I'd just like to point out that his web site is
www.knight-toolworks.com
I hear he's having a sale. I encourage everyone to buy a plane or two
tomorrow.

"Richard Clements" wrote ...

> I looked over Steve's site and I didn't see any Rabbit planes, dose anybody
> know if he makes them?

I tried to plane a rabbit once, but by the time I got two sides flat there wasn't much
left and it took a lot of work. Next time I'll use a jig on the table saw, or a router
and a straightedge.

Please re read my last post and try and understand my point.
I asked " How would you like that if the Borg started advertising there
sales here?" not that they were going to so there is no rambling at all.
I stated that to me there is no difference between the two forms of
advertisement. Self promoting is still self promoting no mater who dose it.
And that it is bad edict.
What part did you not understand? Let me know so I can be perfectly clear.

Chris

Maybe you should follow some of your own advice.... Sometimes ya just gotta
love Google... Steve has contributed a lot to this group and I have no
problem with his advertising at all... One of these days I am gonna order a
plane or two from him.

Like you said, "If you do not like it try first to IGNORE IT or even better
try a filter".......OK?


From: "Chris Melanson" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
References: <1083790222_92@LocalHost>
Subject: Re: OT - FOLLOW-UP 1: Potty-mouth Charlie Self
Lines: 91
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409
Message-ID: <aYfmc.8182$F04.6628@clgrps13>
Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 00:49:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.116.175.197
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 18:49:10 MDT


For some reason the first post did not seem to go through sorry if this is a
repost

What is the real problem here ?
Did someone's feelings get hurt over a few swear words. If you do not
like it IGNORE it. It is that simple OK.
I am not a Christian but I have to put up with all the god bless this
and that but I chose to IGNORE it because I believe in freedom of speech and
that everyone has the right to it. I swear like a drunken sailor on leave
around the shop. But when I am having a discussion on a news group I refrain
from swearing as it usually just takes away from the topic at hand . But I
am not going to jump up and down stamping my feet because somebody posts
some swearing. If you do not like it try first to IGNORE IT or even better
try a filter.

[......... rest of long post deleted .........]


"Chris Melanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:y5%Nc.115289$Rf.80088@edtnps84...
> First thing I am not new here.
> Second thing it is one thing if some one else referred his site than
if
> he did. If he needs to advertise he should set up a mailing list in which
> the recipient gives him his permission to be on it. He could very easily
do
> this by setting up a link on his site.
> It should not mater if someone is a "member" of a group in order to
> advertise on it. It is bad edict. This is a forum for questions and
answers
> and an exchange of ideas not to self promote your products. Should
everyone
> or every business start doing it? How would you like that if the borg
> started advertising there sales here? To me there is no difference ok.
>
> Chris
>
>

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:10:26 GMT, igor <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:24:57 GMT, "Chris Melanson" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
>>see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
>>Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>>
>>Chris
>>
>FWIW, I agree with your general concern about commercial postings here, but
>IMO if the subject line starts with "FS", I think almost anything is OK. -

I agree with the above.

JP

I agree with David. Steve Knight contributes a lot of info to this
forum and I don't mind this kind of post once in a while. In fact,
Steve hardly does this and this is the first time I've ever seen him
post an ad. Steve isn't HD or Lowe's. He's a one man operation.

Layne

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:24:57 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
>see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
>Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>
>Chris
>

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:39:15 -0400, "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>
>
>"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:06:51 -0400, Mike Patterson
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:24:57 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
>> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do
>not
>> >>see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do
>you?
>> >>Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>> >>
>> >>Chris
>> >>
>>
>> It has long been a rec.ww convention that such advertising by folks who
>> also contribute to the group is a reasonable and acceptable practice.
>Mike
>> at American Sycamore, Steve Knight, Ed Bennett and his TS Aligner, and
>> Robin Lee to name a few - - -
>
><snip>
>
>Don't forget Owen Lowe & his Fly By Night Copper Co.

mea culpa. I'm sure there are others I have missed as well -- no slight
was intended, those were the ones that popped to mind in the 30 seconds I
spent thinking about it.

Chris Melanson wrote:

> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do
> not
> see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do
> you? Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.

I note that Steve started posting here about the same time you did, and in
that time he has made over 5000 post, only 94 of which were advertising
items for sale, and many of which were quite helpful to others. In the
same time you made 113 posts. Seems to me that anybody who "pays" for his
ads 50:1 with useful posts that are not advertising is welcome to slip in
the occasional ad, especially when his products are in and of themselves
completely on-topic for this group, being not only useful for woodworking
but quite nice examples of same as well.

Regardless, you seem to be the only one who is upset about Steve's ads and
I'm a bit puzzled as to why you waited until now to complain. The only
progress you're going to make by continuing to tilt at this particular
windmill is to make people mad at you.

>
> Chris

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Chris Melanson wrote:

> First thing I am not new here.

Depends on how you define "new". Some of the participants have been here
since the early '90s or before.

> Second thing it is one thing if some one else referred his site than
> if
> he did. If he needs to advertise he should set up a mailing list in which
> the recipient gives him his permission to be on it. He could very easily
> do this by setting up a link on his site.

He could do that and probably does. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't
inform is "friends" on rec.woodworking that he's having a sale.

> It should not mater if someone is a "member" of a group in order to
> advertise on it.

Why not?

> It is bad edict.

"Edict"? Earth to Chris, nobody has the power to enforce "edicts" on an
unmoderated newsgroup. It is established by custom that regular
participants may post the occasional advertisement.

> This is a forum for questions and
> answers and an exchange of ideas not to self promote your products.

Steve exchanges ideas and answers questions better than just about anybody
else in the newsgroup. He is known and trusted in this particular
community and he has earned that by regular and active participation.

> Should everyone or every business start doing it?

Every business that is willing to post 20 on-topic and usually useful or
informative posts for each ad would be welcome to do it I suspect.

> How would you like that if the borg started advertising there sales here?

If they were working at the same ratio of on-topic posts to ads as Steve I
think I and many others would be ecstatic--it would mean that Home Depot
had actually hired someone whose skills went beyond fumbling with a cash
register.

> To me there is no difference ok.

To most of the rest of us there is a difference. OK.

> Chris

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 00:06:51 -0400, Mike Patterson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:24:57 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do
not
> >>see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do
you?
> >>Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
> >>
> >>Chris
> >>
>
> It has long been a rec.ww convention that such advertising by folks who
> also contribute to the group is a reasonable and acceptable practice.
Mike
> at American Sycamore, Steve Knight, Ed Bennett and his TS Aligner, and
> Robin Lee to name a few - - -

<snip>

Don't forget Owen Lowe & his Fly By Night Copper Co.


--
Nahmie
The law of intelligent tinkering: save all the parts.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.713 / Virus Database: 469 - Release Date: 6/30/2004

Jay Pique wrote:

> On 29 Jul 2004 22:07:22 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:19:54 GMT, Chris Melanson <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>> Please re read my last post and try and understand my point.
>>> I asked " How would you like that if the Borg started advertising there
>>> sales here?" not that they were going to so there is no rambling at all.
>>
>>Why bring it up then, Chris?
>
> It's spam. I personally don't care, but it is spam. Why don't you
> give the guy a break. Lord knows you of all people should be a little
> compassionate.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

See, for example <http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/spam-faq/>,
<http://www.cypango.net/spam/others/thresholds.html>,
<ftp://ftp.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/advertising/how-to/part1>.

The commercial content is not the defining feature of spam. It is the
excessive replication.

>>> I stated that to me there is no difference between the two forms of
>>> advertisement. Self promoting is still self promoting no mater who dose
>>> it.
>>
>>There is a great deal of difference between "Hi, you don't know me,
>>buy my crap", and a regular, helpful individual telling a group he
>>actively helps that a product they're interested in is available.
>
> What's the accepted helpful post to spam ratio by which we should rate
> people?

Why don't you do some research and find out the threshold.

>>> And that it is bad edict.
>>
>>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it
>>means.
>
> No points - already been brought up.

You seem to have a penchant for using words that do not mean what you think
they mean.

>>> What part did you not understand? Let me know so I can be perfectly
>>> clear.
>>
>>The thing that's unclear, is your understanding of this group's
>>tolerance for this type of post, I think. I'll make it simple:
>
>>For sale ad from non-contributor: unwelcome
>
> Spam.

If posted once and on topic, not spam. Offensive and unwelcome, but not
spam.

>>For sale ad from participating, helpful, knowledgeable member of group: OK
>
> Spam.

If on topic not spam. Possibly offensive if repeated to excess, but not
spam.

>>Better now?
>
> Are you? The rules are there are no rules. Maybe we should all shun
> him now?

Well, since there is no mechanism of enforcement you are right, there are no
rules. Welcome to USENET.

>
> JP
> *************
> Add me to the list.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.

Chris

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:19:54 GMT, "Chris Melanson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Please re read my last post and try and understand my point.
>I asked " How would you like that if the Borg started advertising there
>sales here?" not that they were going to so there is no rambling at all.
>I stated that to me there is no difference between the two forms of
>advertisement. Self promoting is still self promoting no mater who dose it.
>And that it is bad edict.
>What part did you not understand? Let me know so I can be perfectly clear.
>

Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "bad edict"

Hint: (from Webster)
Main Entry: edict
Pronunciation: 'E-"dikt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin edictum, from neuter of edictus, past
participle of edicere to decree, from e- + dicere to say -- more at DICTION
1 : a proclamation having the force of law
2 : ORDER, COMMAND <we held firm to Grandmother's edict -- M. F. K. Fisher>


No, I don't normally make grammatical correction postings, but in this
case this is about the fifth time you have used that phrase in this
context.


Regardless of the above nitpick, it's pretty clear to everyone involved
that you don't think commercial postings of any sort should be made in
rec.ww. Precedent and past practice have been contrary to your opinion as
I indicated in a previous response.

>Chris
>

On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:24:00 -0400, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Jay Pique wrote:

>> It's spam. I personally don't care, but it is spam. Why don't you
>> give the guy a break. Lord knows you of all people should be a little
>> compassionate.
>
>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
>
>See, for example <http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/spam-faq/>,
><http://www.cypango.net/spam/others/thresholds.html>,
><ftp://ftp.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/advertising/how-to/part1>.
>
>The commercial content is not the defining feature of spam. It is the
>excessive replication.

You're using the wrong sources - use mine -
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=spam

>>>> I stated that to me there is no difference between the two forms of
>>>> advertisement. Self promoting is still self promoting no mater who dose
>>>> it.
>>>
>>>There is a great deal of difference between "Hi, you don't know me,
>>>buy my crap", and a regular, helpful individual telling a group he
>>>actively helps that a product they're interested in is available.
>>
>> What's the accepted helpful post to spam ratio by which we should rate
>> people?
>
>Why don't you do some research and find out the threshold.

Excuse me? Go have a beer or something.

>>>> And that it is bad edict.
>>>
>>>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it
>>>means.
>>
>> No points - already been brought up.
>
>You seem to have a penchant for using words that do not mean what you think
>they mean.

Moi? What word other than "spam" are you talking about? Go argue
semantics with someone else there champ. Nice use of "penchant"
though.

>>>> What part did you not understand? Let me know so I can be perfectly
>>>> clear.
>>>
>>>The thing that's unclear, is your understanding of this group's
>>>tolerance for this type of post, I think. I'll make it simple:
>>
>>>For sale ad from non-contributor: unwelcome
>>
>> Spam.
>
>If posted once and on topic, not spam. Offensive and unwelcome, but not
>spam.

To whom? What are you arguing? I wasn't even talking to you in the
first place, and I wasn't condemning Steve for posting about his
planes.

>>>For sale ad from participating, helpful, knowledgeable member of group: OK
>>
>> Spam.
>
>If on topic not spam. Possibly offensive if repeated to excess, but not
>spam.
>
>>>Better now?
>>
>> Are you? The rules are there are no rules. Maybe we should all shun
>> him now?
>
>Well, since there is no mechanism of enforcement you are right, there are no
>rules. Welcome to USENET.

Been here, done that. Why don't you give me your usenet pedigree now
and we can all be impressed.

JP

I
> just need to jump in some time and buy a couple...
>
> -Mike

tool porn.

"Bob N" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I tried to plane a rabbit once, but by the time I got two sides flat there
wasn't much
> left and it took a lot of work. Next time I'll use a jig on the table
saw, or a router
> and a straightedge.

Either way, it would be good in a stew even if it is not completely flat. .

>I went to the site last night....still no infill planes??? :-( There's
>got to be a good machinist around there somewhere....not that I can
>afford that Japanese style infill yet, but it's nice knowing I could
>get one if I had the money right now... :-) But, I may finally be able
>to get a dovetail plane next month. :-)

the problems are several. first I don't have a full working set of plans. and I
wanted to change the design anyway. second is most machinists want to make a lot
of them at once and I can't afford it.
now with the Japanese irons a couple of coffin smoothers with Japanese blades
and extra weight will handle a larger range of woods and cost less.
but they don't have that cool infill thing though I have to admit.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On 30 Jul 2004 15:40:05 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 07:21:26 -0400, Jay Pique <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 29 Jul 2004 22:07:22 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Why bring it up then, Chris?
>>
>> It's spam. I personally don't care, but it is spam. Why don't you
>> give the guy a break. Lord knows you of all people should be a little
>> compassionate.
>
>Me of all people? Where are you going with _that_, Jay? Might this
>have something to do with the email filtering service that I subscribe to?

No - has nothing to do with spamcop. I just figured since you catch a
lot of heat here that you might not feel the need to pile on others.

>>>There is a great deal of difference between "Hi, you don't know me,
>>>buy my crap", and a regular, helpful individual telling a group he
>>>actively helps that a product they're interested in is available.
>>
>> What's the accepted helpful post to spam ratio by which we should rate
>> people?
>
>Apparently, Mr. Knight's ratio is beyond that, by the looks of the group.
>Someone's analysis showed his ratio is 50:1 or 500:1 or something. Not
>a lot of people are 50 parts signal to 1 part noise.
>
>>>> And that it is bad edict.
>
>>>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
>
>> No points - already been brought up.
>
>It's a humerous reference to a line used in a movie, inserted to keep
>things to get too heavy.

You've got an interesting sense of balance.

JP

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:46:04 -0700, Layne <> wrote:

>I agree with David. Steve Knight contributes a lot of info to this
>forum and I don't mind this kind of post once in a while. In fact,
>Steve hardly does this and this is the first time I've ever seen him
>post an ad. Steve isn't HD or Lowe's. He's a one man operation.

not as much as I used too. I have become so specialized I don't have as much to
offer. I sure miss that. or everyone beats me too it (G)

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Stick around for a while and you will find that Steve contributes more than
he takes.

I have to second that. It is not as if he is bulk spamming the group and
more often than selling he is helping with valuable info.

P.

"David Zaret" <news@__REMOVE__zaret.com> wrote in message
news:41086EA3.6050605@__REMOVE__zaret.com...
> i disagree. i, for one, appreciate steve's postings, whether to
> advertise his incredible products or to respond to someone's questions.
>
> steve, keep it up, and please continue to add value to the newsgroup.
>
> --- dz
>
>
>
> Chris Melanson wrote:
>
> > Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do
not
> > see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do
you?
> > Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 04:32:30 GMT, "Chris Melanson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

snip
> It should not mater if someone is a "member" of a group in order to
>advertise on it. It is bad edict. This is a forum for questions and answers
snip

Hey Steve,

I could use a nice handmade plane know where I might get one? If
they're on sale that would be a plus! :-)

Layne

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 03:24:57 GMT, "Chris Melanson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Since when did this become a commercial advertisement forum ? You do not
>see the many shop owners in this forum whoreing there products here do you?
>Please take out an ad in a newspaper or trade publication not here.
>
>Chris
>
FWIW, I agree with your general concern about commercial postings here, but
IMO if the subject line starts with "FS", I think almost anything is OK. -
Igor

On 29 Jul 2004 22:07:22 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 05:19:54 GMT, Chris Melanson <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Please re read my last post and try and understand my point.
>> I asked " How would you like that if the Borg started advertising there
>> sales here?" not that they were going to so there is no rambling at all.
>
>Why bring it up then, Chris?

It's spam. I personally don't care, but it is spam. Why don't you
give the guy a break. Lord knows you of all people should be a little
compassionate.

>> I stated that to me there is no difference between the two forms of
>> advertisement. Self promoting is still self promoting no mater who dose it.
>
>There is a great deal of difference between "Hi, you don't know me,
>buy my crap", and a regular, helpful individual telling a group he
>actively helps that a product they're interested in is available.

What's the accepted helpful post to spam ratio by which we should rate
people?

>> And that it is bad edict.
>
>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

No points - already been brought up.

>> What part did you not understand? Let me know so I can be perfectly clear.
>
>The thing that's unclear, is your understanding of this group's
>tolerance for this type of post, I think. I'll make it simple:

>For sale ad from non-contributor: unwelcome

Spam.

>For sale ad from participating, helpful, knowledgeable member of group: OK

Spam.

>Better now?

Are you? The rules are there are no rules. Maybe we should all shun
him now?

JP
*************
Add me to the list.

Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote:

>And I know I'm not the only one who reads the Lee Valley catalogue in
>bed.

LOL. Over and over and over. It must be some sort of sickness!

BTW - The Dick tools catalogue out of Germany is awfully nice too.

JP

Chris, I completly disagree. This forum has in the past allowed this to
happen and it should in the future. The borg isn't going to spam us so that
is just rambling. Steve's planes have been the topic of many threads in this
group and I think it's great that he occasionally offers them at a discount
to the readers here. I for one now have two of them and they are great and I
hope you keep posting Steve....


"Chris Melanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:y5%Nc.115289$Rf.80088@edtnps84...
> First thing I am not new here.
> Second thing it is one thing if some one else referred his site than
if
> he did. If he needs to advertise he should set up a mailing list in which
> the recipient gives him his permission to be on it. He could very easily
do
> this by setting up a link on his site.
> It should not mater if someone is a "member" of a group in order to
> advertise on it. It is bad edict. This is a forum for questions and
answers
> and an exchange of ideas not to self promote your products. Should
everyone
> or every business start doing it? How would you like that if the borg
> started advertising there sales here? To me there is no difference ok.
>
> Chris
>
>

First thing I am not new here.
Second thing it is one thing if some one else referred his site than if
he did. If he needs to advertise he should set up a mailing list in which
the recipient gives him his permission to be on it. He could very easily do
this by setting up a link on his site.
It should not mater if someone is a "member" of a group in order to
advertise on it. It is bad edict. This is a forum for questions and answers
and an exchange of ideas not to self promote your products. Should everyone
or every business start doing it? How would you like that if the borg
started advertising there sales here? To me there is no difference ok.

Chris