(if there are any Buzzcocks fans out there, my Festool Hat's off to
you)
I always thought my planer was much louder when the dust collector was
running so I borrowed a sound level meter from work to verify it
quantitatively . Standing at a location where you would be feeding
stock into the planer (15 inch Delta, Chinese made) I first measured
the sound with just the planer motor on and no DC running and got
85db. With the planer off I then opened the 5 inch blast gate and
turned on the DC (3hp Oneida) which resides in a separate room and
runs from 7 to 6 to a final 5 inch diameter pipe at the planer. The
sound level was 82db. With the DC on I turned on the planer and
measured 106db. Planing 4 inch wide oak - light cuts - only increased
the sound level to 108db.
With the planer still under power I truned off the DC and watched as
the level decreased slowly to 85 again. I cycled the DC once more
just to repeat the readings and it was as before.
I never gave it much thought but it seems like you can suck the sound
out of a machine. I know very little about sound technology but I am
aware that the db range is logarithmic however I don't know how to
calculate what occurred. I'm sure the sound produced by the
combination of planer and DC is greater than the additive effect of
each device. Any sound experts reading this? Thanks for any
feedback.
Marc
The most likely cause of the increase is the airflow within the planer. If
your Delta is like mine the dust collector hood has a 4 inch round opening
for the hose and a narrow wide slit that attaches to the planer to suck up
the chips. Pulling your dust collector airflow thru the slit will produc
noise on its own. Sort of like blowing over the top of a soda bottle.
Russ
"marc rosen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:095bbfc7-4409-4367-8802-2521c5397ba4@i18g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
> (if there are any Buzzcocks fans out there, my Festool Hat's off to
> you)
> I always thought my planer was much louder when the dust collector was
> running so I borrowed a sound level meter from work to verify it
> quantitatively . Standing at a location where you would be feeding
> stock into the planer (15 inch Delta, Chinese made) I first measured
> the sound with just the planer motor on and no DC running and got
> 85db. With the planer off I then opened the 5 inch blast gate and
> turned on the DC (3hp Oneida) which resides in a separate room and
> runs from 7 to 6 to a final 5 inch diameter pipe at the planer. The
> sound level was 82db. With the DC on I turned on the planer and
> measured 106db. Planing 4 inch wide oak - light cuts - only increased
> the sound level to 108db.
> With the planer still under power I truned off the DC and watched as
> the level decreased slowly to 85 again. I cycled the DC once more
> just to repeat the readings and it was as before.
> I never gave it much thought but it seems like you can suck the sound
> out of a machine. I know very little about sound technology but I am
> aware that the db range is logarithmic however I don't know how to
> calculate what occurred. I'm sure the sound produced by the
> combination of planer and DC is greater than the additive effect of
> each device. Any sound experts reading this? Thanks for any
> feedback.
>
> Marc
On 4/3/2012 8:08 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/3/2012 6:34 AM, marc rosen wrote:
>>> On Apr 2, 10:59 pm, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2012 8:13 PM, marc rosen wrote:
>
> So.... is it possible to develop noise cancelling sound for the shop?
> This along the lines of the noise cancelling systems in car audio systems?
In theory, yes. Practically ... easier, and cheaper to stick with ear
muffs. ;)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On Apr 2, 10:59=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4/2/2012 8:13 PM, marc rosen wrote:
>
> > calculate what occurred. =A0I'm sure the sound produced by the
> > combination of planer and DC is greater than the additive effect of
> > each device. =A0Any sound experts reading this? =A0Thanks for any
> > feedback.
>
> Adding two identical sound sources can indeed increase the sound power
> level significantly.
>
> There a few other possibilities, one being the result of standing waves
> due to acoustic "nodes" in the shop room itself. Try moving the
> instrument to another location in the room and see if you get the same
> results.
>
Hi Swing,
Thanks for the link and the comment. I did not measure the sound at
different locations but I have listened to it throughout my shop and
the living room area above. In all cases the sounds produced by
either the DC or the planer are insignificant. But turn them both on
and it is an unpleasant level.
=20
Marc
On 4/3/2012 8:20 AM, Russ Stanton wrote:
> The most likely cause of the increase is the airflow within the planer.
> If your Delta is like mine the dust collector hood has a 4 inch round
> opening for the hose and a narrow wide slit that attaches to the planer
> to suck up the chips. Pulling your dust collector airflow thru the slit
> will produc noise on its own. Sort of like blowing over the top of a
> soda bottle.
That doesn't explain the additive nature of the increase with two
machines running, neither one being louder than the other, which I think
is what his question was ... could have misunderstood the original question
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 4/3/2012 6:34 AM, marc rosen wrote:
> On Apr 2, 10:59 pm, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 4/2/2012 8:13 PM, marc rosen wrote:
>>
>>> calculate what occurred. I'm sure the sound produced by the
>>> combination of planer and DC is greater than the additive effect of
>>> each device. Any sound experts reading this? Thanks for any
>>> feedback.
>>
>> Adding two identical sound sources can indeed increase the sound power
>> level significantly.
>>
>> There a few other possibilities, one being the result of standing waves
>> due to acoustic "nodes" in the shop room itself. Try moving the
>> instrument to another location in the room and see if you get the same
>> results.
>>
> Hi Swing,
> Thanks for the link and the comment. I did not measure the sound at
> different locations but I have listened to it throughout my shop and
> the living room area above. In all cases the sounds produced by
> either the DC or the planer are insignificant. But turn them both on
> and it is an unpleasant level.
>
> Marc
I have the same set up and agree that the sound significantly increases
in volume. I wonder if a jointer would show the same increase.
On 4/2/2012 9:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/2/2012 8:13 PM, marc rosen wrote:
>
>> calculate what occurred. I'm sure the sound produced by the
>> combination of planer and DC is greater than the additive effect of
>> each device. Any sound experts reading this? Thanks for any
>> feedback.
>
> Adding two identical sound sources can indeed increase the sound power
> level significantly.
>
> There a few other possibilities, one being the result of standing waves
> due to acoustic "nodes" in the shop room itself. Try moving the
> instrument to another location in the room and see if you get the same
> results.
>
> Check out the SPL calculator here:
>
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/adding-decibel-d_63.html
>
I get the same increase in sound from my Delta 15" planer when I turn on
the DC.
On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 09:08:22 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/3/2012 6:34 AM, marc rosen wrote:
>>> On Apr 2, 10:59 pm, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 4/2/2012 8:13 PM, marc rosen wrote:
>
>So.... is it possible to develop noise cancelling sound for the shop? This
>along the lines of the noise cancelling systems in car audio systems?
Quite possible all it takes is money.
Mark
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/3/2012 8:08 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 4/3/2012 6:34 AM, marc rosen wrote:
>>>> On Apr 2, 10:59 pm, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/2/2012 8:13 PM, marc rosen wrote:
>>
>> So.... is it possible to develop noise cancelling sound for the shop?
>> This along the lines of the noise cancelling systems in car audio
>> systems?
>
> In theory, yes. Practically ... easier, and cheaper to stick with ear
> muffs. ;)
Maybe for you or me... but there are folks out there that would buy it. ;~)
John
On 4/2/2012 8:13 PM, marc rosen wrote:
> calculate what occurred. I'm sure the sound produced by the
> combination of planer and DC is greater than the additive effect of
> each device. Any sound experts reading this? Thanks for any
> feedback.
Adding two identical sound sources can indeed increase the sound power
level significantly.
There a few other possibilities, one being the result of standing waves
due to acoustic "nodes" in the shop room itself. Try moving the
instrument to another location in the room and see if you get the same
results.
Check out the SPL calculator here:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/adding-decibel-d_63.html
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4/2/12 9:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/adding-decibel-d_63.html
>>
>
> Where has this site been all my life!?
>
They also have some handy Sketchup engineering models.
--
www.ewoodshop.com
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/3/2012 6:34 AM, marc rosen wrote:
>> On Apr 2, 10:59 pm, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 4/2/2012 8:13 PM, marc rosen wrote:
So.... is it possible to develop noise cancelling sound for the shop? This
along the lines of the noise cancelling systems in car audio systems?
John
On 4/3/2012 8:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/3/2012 8:20 AM, Russ Stanton wrote:
>
>> The most likely cause of the increase is the airflow within the planer.
>> If your Delta is like mine the dust collector hood has a 4 inch round
>> opening for the hose and a narrow wide slit that attaches to the planer
>> to suck up the chips. Pulling your dust collector airflow thru the slit
>> will produc noise on its own. Sort of like blowing over the top of a
>> soda bottle.
>
> That doesn't explain the additive nature of the increase with two
> machines running, neither one being louder than the other, which I think
> is what his question was ... could have misunderstood the original question
>
>
Could the hose be acting as a megaphone?
On Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:00:19 -0700, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>"Morgans" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>"John Grossbohlin" wrote
>
>So.... is it possible to develop noise cancelling sound for the shop? This
>along the lines of the noise cancelling systems in car audio systems?
>*****************************************
>The short answer is yes.
>They have done it in small business type aircraft.
>
>The thing is, the noise at each seat is different. You end up putting a
>microphone at each seat with its own canceling computer and speakers.
>
>So, if you put 20 or 30 systems around the shop, you could help, a lot. You
>would also be much poorer.
>
>If you want to help cut noise in the shop, you can also go for the sound
>absorbing approach. Brown builders board with burlap type material all over
>as much of the walls and ceiling you can manage.
>===============================================================
>That and the mass amounts of sawdust it will hold should do a pretty good
>job. :)
Noise cancelling units to counteract the sound of air handling
systems are quite common in offices. They are effective against
relatively "constant mode" backround noise, and almost innefective
against intermittent or varying noises.
On 4/2/12 9:59 PM, Swingman wrote:
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/adding-decibel-d_63.html
>
Where has this site been all my life!?
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 4/3/2012 8:20 AM, Russ Stanton wrote:
> The most likely cause of the increase is the airflow within the planer. If your
> Delta is like mine the dust collector hood has a 4 inch round opening for the
> hose and a narrow wide slit that attaches to the planer to suck up the chips.
> Pulling your dust collector airflow thru the slit will produc noise on its own.
> Sort of like blowing over the top of a soda bottle.
Well sorta. I have a 15" Grizzly planer and a Grizzly cyclone, and the planer
makes a LOT more noise when the dust collector comes on. The collector pulls a
*considerable* amount of air past the planer knives, and those rapidly spinning
knives will make a huge whirring noise as they "cut" through that high-speed
flow of air. Any fan or propeller is going to make a quite a bit of wind noise
at high speed, but planer blades are far less aerodynamic so the noise is much
greater.
I'm curious to hear what the noise factor might be on a planer that has the
network of spiral cutters rather than full length knives. I'll bet they are
much quieter.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On 4/3/12 11:03 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/3/2012 8:53 AM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 4/3/2012 8:20 AM, Russ Stanton wrote:
>>
>>> The most likely cause of the increase is the airflow within the planer.
>>> If your Delta is like mine the dust collector hood has a 4 inch round
>>> opening for the hose and a narrow wide slit that attaches to the planer
>>> to suck up the chips. Pulling your dust collector airflow thru the slit
>>> will produc noise on its own. Sort of like blowing over the top of a
>>> soda bottle.
>>
>> That doesn't explain the additive nature of the increase with two
>> machines running, neither one being louder than the other, which I think
>> is what his question was ... could have misunderstood the original
>> question
>>
>>
>
> Could the hose be acting as a megaphone?
Might want to check everything for Oak Rust©.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Thanks for the link and the comment. I did not measure the sound at
different locations but I have listened to it throughout my shop and
the living room area above. In all cases the sounds produced by
either the DC or the planer are insignificant. But turn them both on
and it is an unpleasant level.
***************************************************
What is probably happening, is the air moving past the head is causing it to
act somewhat like a siren. All a siren is, is an air pump with the air
blown over revolving fins, or vise-versa.
If you can, try to cut down the air flow to just enough to clear the
shavings. Also, look for a possible way to control the places the air is
drawn in, so it blows though where the chips spit out, but not directly past
the cutter head.
-- Jim in NC
"John Grossbohlin" wrote
So.... is it possible to develop noise cancelling sound for the shop? This
along the lines of the noise cancelling systems in car audio systems?
*****************************************
The short answer is yes.
They have done it in small business type aircraft.
The thing is, the noise at each seat is different. You end up putting a
microphone at each seat with its own canceling computer and speakers.
So, if you put 20 or 30 systems around the shop, you could help, a lot. You
would also be much poorer.
If you want to help cut noise in the shop, you can also go for the sound
absorbing approach. Brown builders board with burlap type material all over
as much of the walls and ceiling you can manage. There are also many
expensive materials commercially available.
-- Jim in NC
"Swingman" wrote
That doesn't explain the additive nature of the increase with two
machines running, neither one being louder than the other, which I think
is what his question was ... could have misunderstood the original question
**********************************
Part of it does. The blades cutting though the rapidly moving air does not
happen until you get both of them going at the same time.
-- Jim in NC
That and the mass amounts of sawdust it will hold should do a pretty good
job. :)
**********************************************
Yep. Kinda like what a big upper lip full of hair is good for; saving a
little food for later!
Paper type egg cartons work pretty well, too. Not quite as much dust imbeds
in them, but it does sit on them.
Acoustic ceiling tiles (drop in or other) works well, and doesn't collect as
much.
-- Jim in NC
On 4/3/2012 9:39 PM, Morgans wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote
>
> That doesn't explain the additive nature of the increase with two
> machines running, neither one being louder than the other, which I think
> is what his question was ... could have misunderstood the original question
> **********************************
> Part of it does. The blades cutting though the rapidly moving air does
> not happen until you get both of them going at the same time.
That's certainly true, and if that is the case (which it most certainly
is one of the components), then there should be a fairly specific
frequency involved in the "siren/blow over a bottle" component of the
overall sound, which lends itself even more to the additive/room
acoustics theory ... particularly in light that the OP mentioned it was
also noticeable in the living area above the shop.
A strong sine wave component added by your blade/air flow effect (with
consistent air flow and blade rate) to the overall "noise" of both
machines in the shop could certainly increase the overall SPL dramatically.
(I once recorded a "crystal bowl meditation" session for the wife of our
local DA. She had a dozen different size crystal bowls that, when rubbed
with her hands, would vibrate/resonate like wet wine glass rims, only
much larger and louder. The additive effect (and standing wave
generation) of these multiple bowls resonating in the room was enough to
overdrive both the microphones, and the input of the console, to the
point of necessitating strong compression be added to the chain, and
could be heard, and felt, out in the parking lot ... virtually a "hands
free" massage just being in the room. :) )
Safe to say there are a number of interacting components, both acoustic,
mechanical, and environmental to the OP's phenomenon.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
"Morgans" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
"John Grossbohlin" wrote
So.... is it possible to develop noise cancelling sound for the shop? This
along the lines of the noise cancelling systems in car audio systems?
*****************************************
The short answer is yes.
They have done it in small business type aircraft.
The thing is, the noise at each seat is different. You end up putting a
microphone at each seat with its own canceling computer and speakers.
So, if you put 20 or 30 systems around the shop, you could help, a lot. You
would also be much poorer.
If you want to help cut noise in the shop, you can also go for the sound
absorbing approach. Brown builders board with burlap type material all over
as much of the walls and ceiling you can manage.
===============================================================
That and the mass amounts of sawdust it will hold should do a pretty good
job. :)
On 4/3/2012 6:34 AM, marc rosen wrote:
> On Apr 2, 10:59 pm, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 4/2/2012 8:13 PM, marc rosen wrote:
>>
>>> calculate what occurred. I'm sure the sound produced by the
>>> combination of planer and DC is greater than the additive effect of
>>> each device. Any sound experts reading this? Thanks for any
>>> feedback.
>>
>> Adding two identical sound sources can indeed increase the sound power
>> level significantly.
>>
>> There a few other possibilities, one being the result of standing waves
>> due to acoustic "nodes" in the shop room itself. Try moving the
>> instrument to another location in the room and see if you get the same
>> results.
>>
> Hi Swing,
> Thanks for the link and the comment. I did not measure the sound at
> different locations but I have listened to it throughout my shop and
> the living room area above. In all cases the sounds produced by
> either the DC or the planer are insignificant. But turn them both on
> and it is an unpleasant level.
IME, there at least a couple of things at play.
Each motor is producing varying frequencies which, when they coincide
with the other motor, the perceived intensity of those frequencies is
increased, either by adding together, or by exciting a resonance in the
room at those frequencies (think of a drum), or both.
In addition, and since loudness is actually perceived by the firing of
nerves, and the number of nerves, in different areas of the ears, with
both motors running and producing sound waves at their varying
frequencies, many more nerves are firing in your ears, which will also
result in an increase in perceived loudness.
And example would be in a symphony ... a section of ten violins playing
the same note will generally sound twice as loud as one violin. But ten
different instruments playing in harmony (different frequencies) at the
same time will sound more than twice as loud as any individual instrument.
From your description, most likely a combination of the above is what
is causing the phenomenon you are describing.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
"Morgans" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "John Grossbohlin" wrote
>
> So.... is it possible to develop noise cancelling sound for the shop?
> This
> along the lines of the noise cancelling systems in car audio systems?
> *****************************************
> The short answer is yes.
> They have done it in small business type aircraft.
>
> The thing is, the noise at each seat is different. You end up putting a
> microphone at each seat with its own canceling computer and speakers.
>
> So, if you put 20 or 30 systems around the shop, you could help, a lot.
> You would also be much poorer.
>
> If you want to help cut noise in the shop, you can also go for the sound
> absorbing approach. Brown builders board with burlap type material all
> over as much of the walls and ceiling you can manage. There are also many
> expensive materials commercially available.
With at least some hobbyist woodworkers in the same demographic as private
jet owners there could be money to be made... ;~)