Re: Design for my garage shop

On Mar 16, 3:35=A0pm, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> > I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over a c'bkr that costs
> > less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
> > only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
> > problem load without affecting other loads.
>
> ...
> > Lew
>
> When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
> was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
> go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.
>
> I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working
> with 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to
> plug it into a 240v outlet. =A0I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinkin=
g
> about using it with gloves! : ) =A0I sure believe I should test any
> outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.

A 240V circuit is simply two 120V circuits on opposite sides of the
transformer. Nothing is further than 120V from ground.

On 3/16/2010 4:19 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:

>> Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
>> all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
>> be doing your own electrical work.
>
> Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear. I'm going to have to learn to use
> mine "better" before I plug it into high voltage...

Only 120v use, but I carry one of these in the toolkit in my truck at
all times ... and in my pocket during electrical inspections in houses
I'm building. Mostly to insure that circuits are live and wired
correctly, but also to verify to an inspector that a circuit is indeed
GFCI protected (you don't always know where the GFCI receptacle upstream
is located)

http://www.tripplite.com/EN/products/model.cfm?txtmodelID=3941

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Bill wrote:

>
> Some of what I've learned since I read Lew's post the first time:
>
> Evidentally, a load center is "Main Lug Only" when it doesn't have
> it's own main breaker like the primary load center would probably
> have.
> Load Units, such as made by Eator Cutler-Hammer use descriptions such
> as "12 spaces, 24 circuits".
> If I learned part of my lesson yesterday, the only way you'd get 24
> circuits would be to use 1 Hot
> and a 1 Common for every circuit.

In 120v circuits you would always use one Hot and one Neutral, plus a ground
for every circuit, so if what you are trying to say is that you can only get
24 circuits by wiring only for 120v, then you would be correct. You get 24
branch circuits by using mini breakers instead of full size breakers.
Mini's will give you two breakers in the space of one. Each half of a mini
gets wired the same way as a full sized breaker - a hot wire to the breaker
and the neutral and ground to the respective buss bar(s).

> Is it typical for someone put two
> such circuits under a single breaker--probably
> not in a shop environment, huh? Even "lighting" seem too important
> to mess around with.

A branch circuit is the outlets/devices that are controlled by a breaker.
That circuit can run to multiple outlets, multiple devices, or it can be
dedicated to just one outlet or device. With that in mind, you don't want
to run multiple branch circuits off of one breaker. You calculate the load
that a given circuit will potentially exhibit to the breaker, and determine
how many outlets/devices to string off that breaker. Lighting is fairly
straight forward since you pretty much know the load of every light - you
know the wattage of the lights you'll be using. Outlets are less straight
forward because the many types of things one may plug into an outlet make
for an undefined load. People generally stick with some common techniques
such as 8 outlets (or less depending on preference) per branch circuit in a
shop type environment. There's no real science behind that though.

>
> So you use 2 spaces for a 2P-30A branch For Each 240v stationary tool
> in the load center. So with four 240v tools
> one is basically left with room for 4 or 8 120v lines.

Correct.

> This
> raises the question: Which is better--two circuits with 1 outlet each
> from 1 breaker or one circuit with 2 outlets on one breaker?

It is best to think about how you will be using the area. It really serves
no purpose to install dedicated outlets all around your shop. It's not
likely that you will be using tools simultaneously such that you need 20A at
each outlet. You'd be better off wiring branch circuits of 4-8 outlets per
circuit. However - you cannot run multiple branch circuits from one
breaker. So - think about your expected usage and then wire in branch
circuits accordingly. My guess is you'll find that wiring 4-8 outlets per
branch circuit works out just fine.

> I
> think the former--for the same reason Lew only wants one 240v tool on
> each line. This creates a new question for me: in what sense does a
> 15A breaker support two different circuits? Specifically, does
> it only support the sum of the amperages of the two circuits?

It does not.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load center
> which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini breakers:
>
> When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
> 220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot leg
> ... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool whatsoever.
>
> Nothing dangerous will result, but you'll be left scratching your head. :)
>
> Basically, just be careful when you install a 220/240v c'bkr that you put
> it in two adjacent slots where each draws from a different bus. You can do
> this visually.

And, I've got three-phase! Which I've never been able to utilize . . .
except once - by stupidity.
12 or 15 years ago I finally got around to putting in a dedicated
circuit for my kitchen refrigerator. Only I plugged that 20 amp single pole
into one leg of the three phase. WOW! You can't believe how bright a 15
watt appliance bulb can get. The freezer fan was the only casualty.
Fortunately I had an appliance repair man that made Sunday house calls.
And, that side-by-side Kenmore lasted 20+ years.

Dave in Houston

Bill wrote:

>
> Another tip I learned while reading was to shut off all of the circuit
> breakers, before shutting off the main one, before adding a new one.
> Like Swingman says, this stuff makes sense, you just need someone to
> tell you what makes sense.

Don't know where you learned that one Bill, but it's not right. There is no
need to shut off all of the branch breakers before shutting of the main and
there is no need to shut off the main before inserting a new breaker.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 3/18/2010 11:57 AM, Bill wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
>> a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.
>
> I just wished to double-check that this was supposed to be
> "Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
> non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool."
>
> This is correct, right? Is is fair to assume that most 15A tools also
> have a fuse or internal shut-off system of their own?

IME, don't even bother with 15 amp circuits, except maybe for lights.

In many locales today at least 12 ga wire is required throughout, and it
is simply too easy to use 12 ga and go with 20 amp c'brks for your 120v
tools.

Not really enough of a cost savings for the ultimate flexibility benefit.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm updatiing my description. It's dark outside and drizzling. Both
> meters are moving.
>
>
>> There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
>> another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
>> is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter--no
>> more than a 3/8" gap betweeen them.
> A much longer piece of conduit (3/4"-1") comes out of the bottom of the
> side of the box and goes up into the back of the "transformer".

A meter pole would often have a disconnect connected to the meter, at the
pole. This was/is common in trailer hookups. I'm not sure about the (15A)
statement you make. What do you mean by (15A)? It strkes me as odd that
that there would be a 15 Amp disconnect directly off a meter. The conduit
going back to the transformer could just have a ground running in it.

>
> I think it's possible that my shut off in inside that 2'x2'x2.5' box I
> mentioned earlier, it's unlocked and would be easily reachable with a
> ladder. Another conceivable place is inside my meter's box--which has a
> special clip on it.

Unless you have a disconnect installed after your meter, you have no
disconnect. Disconnects are common for meter poles, and but they are not
necessary for a standard residential hookup. Your disconnect (in normal
circumstances) is the main breaker in your panel. The meter head serves as
the disconnect for most home wiring.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mar 15, 9:30=A0am, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Is there a rule that says a subpanel has to be a very short distance fr=
om
> > the main panel? =A0I would position it about 10 feet away if I could.
>
> That's cool...
>
> > Is anything (code) likely to prevent me from doing what I want with 15A=
and
> > 20A 120v and 240v circuits from a subpanel (like having 10 of them)? =
=A0As you
> > mentioned earlier, I'm likely to stay far below the 50A threshold
> > in terms of actual usage.
>
> No, that's what subpanels are for -- just size it for the number of
> circuits of the type you want/need and make it's service breaker the
> same or smaller than the feed. =A0If it's close enough, you can (I think)
> get by w/o the local breaker/disconnect but it's certainly more
> convenient and I'd likely not scrimp...

If they're in different locations I believe you're required to have a
local disconnect. This can easily be accomplished by inserting a
breaker, rated for the wire between the sub and main panels, into the
panel and feeding it "backwards" (the electrons don't know the
difference). This breaker should be marked clearly as the disconnect.

> Good luck, it ain't rocket science; most of the Code is simply
> formalizing what is common sense; it just takes somebody to point out
> what that commonsense is for the first time and NEC is the standard.
> The self-help books are pretty good in general at separating the code
> legalese and turning that into what actually needs doing...

Yup.

1. Never enough outlets.

a) Try running 12/3 or to all you outlets, isolating the top from
the bottom and adding a switch to the bottom outlets if not to top and
bottom. This will allow you to leave those wall transformers plugged
in 24/7, but turn off power to them when you leave the shop.

b) Duplex outlets in the ceiling can serve ideally for the four
foot fluorescent "shop lamps" sold at Lowes, HD, etc for about $9. And
you can do the switched approach on these as well in case you have a
need for a DROP CORD approach to a tool - assuming your shop would not
be usable with the lights off e.g. nto enough window area to let in
sufficient daylight for working.

2. The wall on the house side might prove a treasure trove of points
to secure power, telephone line, cable TV, water, sewer access. Is the
floor of the shop even with that of the house/kitchen? Hey, how about
a shop sink/eyewash station replete with drain?

"Nonny" wrote:

> When I wired my own shop, I pulled in a 60a line to a load center in
> my shop from my main household breaker box. I then got a 6-circuit
> little load center box and connected it up without much thought.
> The box had 3 breakouts on the left and 3 breakouts on the right.
> It was only when I began installing some tools that it hit me like a
> ton of rocks: that's just 2 normal DP breakers and 2 SP breakers.
> In my own case, it was a simple task to pull out the little box and
> substitute in a 12 circuit box with 6 knockouts on each side. The
> little box became a load center on one of the attics.
-----------------------------------------

Lowest cost, highest flexibility as follows:

125A MLO (Main Lug Only) 12/24 (12-1" poles/24;1/2" poles)
Load Center equipped with a 2P-60A Main c'bkr kit, neutral bar,
and insulated ground bar.

The above has enough capacity for almost any shop including
a fairly good sized commercial shop.

Install 2P-30A branch c'bkr for each 240V stationary tool along with
a 2P-30A, non fused disconnect at (within 10ft) the tool.

If you are going to work on a tool, padlock the disconnect switch
in the OFF position with a padlock that has only ONE KEY,
which is in your pocket.

The above is a standard industrial safety practice.

Simple, neat, and low cost.

Lew

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote
On Mar 15, 11:25 am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/15/2010 12:57 AM, Bill wrote:
>
> > Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is
> > interested:
>
> >http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/sub_panel/01/new.htm
>
> Do what Lew said ...
>
> I REPEAT: Do what Lew said!!
>
> If you do what Lew said you will have no problems installing a sub-panel
> of the right kind that will be flexible and codeworthy (you haven't got
> into the issue of "grounding" a sub-panel yet, and, depending upon the
> location, you will most likely need to address grounding with an
> "insulated ground bar" which generally has to be purchased separately
> from the breaker box and installed therein).
>
> Save yourself some time, money, and redoing, by paying particular
> attention to what Lew said!
>
> Got the point yet?
>
> If not, get it ... by doing what Lew said! :)
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think he should do what Lew said to do.
==================

Does that include the installation of the epoxy workstation?

"Swingman" wrote:


> There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load
> center which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini
> breakers:
>
> When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
> 220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot
> leg ... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool
> whatsoever.
<snip>
-----------------------------------------

Only if you try to cut corners.

A 2P c'bkr has a built in key that prohibits installing the c'bkr in
an improper location.

OTOH, if you try to cut corners by installing a pair of 1P c'bkrs with
a handle tie, it is definitely possible to incorrectly install the
c'bkrs and get only 120V.

Another problem is that you lose the common internal trip feature
found in a proper 2P c'bkr.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over a c'bkr that costs
less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
problem load without affecting other loads.

A definite safety and flexibility advantage for minimal cost.

Lew

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

Just a tiny, little, FWIW.

One time, a long time ago in a past life, old Nonny stuck in a
breaker for some little load in his shop. The panel was a 36
circuit 200a one. Somewhere, along the way, one of the wires from
a 30a circuit to a water heater snuck over into a corner of the
box and came up alongside the tabs where the front screwed to the
box.

Poor old Nonny was sticking the front cover back in place when the
sheet metal screw he was using (note: ALL flat ended screws
furnished with panels disappear/get lost/are taken/break etc.)
drove straight into the 10g. wire on the 30a breaker. The bang
and fireball were worth note, and from that moment on, old Nonny
made damned sure that no wires snuck up under panel face mounting
tabs ever again.

--
Nonny
When we talk to God, we're praying,
but when God talks to us,
we're schizophrenic.
What's the deal?

"Bill" wrote
>
> When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
> was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
> go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.
>
If you understand the layout and how to use a a multimeter, finding the
problem is pretty straightforward.

> I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working with
> 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to plug it
> into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking about
> using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
> outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.
>
Again, get an inexpensive multimeter. They are worth their weight in gold.
They have settings for 110 and 220 volts.

When I moved into my present house, an idiot friend of the previous owner
assured me the dryer outlet was OK. It wasn't wired up when we first looked
at it. I told my wife I was going to check it out, but she did not think it
was important. She started the dryer and quickly became alarmed. I don't
really recall exactly what happened but my honey assured me that the bad
outlet was doing something mean to her dryer and she wanted it fixed RIGHT
NOW!

I checked it out with my multimeter and referenced an electrical book I had.
Sure enough, it was wired incorrectly. They just stuck the wires in there
in a random order. I corrected that problem by measuring across the various
wires until I found the right combination. Then I wired the outlet
appropriately. The dryer worked fine.

But it didn't stop there. The facuets to the washer leaked. So I had to
replace them. I found the best quality faucets out there and put them in.
They have worked fine since. I don't know where they found those junk
faucets that was on there before.

Cuz when you move into a new house, the missus wants her things fixed first.

"Swingman" wrote:

> Not necessarily with all brands ... I'm looking at a box of NEW GE
> 2p's from HD that will fit in any two slots in a 12/24 panel.
>
> Absolutely no doubt about it ...
----------------------------------
Go back and check those GE c'bkrs again.

If they fit, they have made a MAJOR design since I was involved with
them.

Makes no difference whether they are 2P full size or 2P half size
c'bkr modules, they both have a common internal trip and a mechanical
interlock to prevent insertion into an incorrect location.

BTW, should see the words "common internal trip" molded into the case
of a 2P device.

Lew

Should have included the statement the GE c'bkrs can not be installed
incorrectly in GE load centers.

Can't swear as to whether the interlock works with non GE manufactured
load centers.

Lew
-----------------------------------------
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> Not necessarily with all brands ... I'm looking at a box of NEW GE
>> 2p's from HD that will fit in any two slots in a 12/24 panel.
>>
>> Absolutely no doubt about it ...
> ----------------------------------
> Go back and check those GE c'bkrs again.
>
> If they fit, they have made a MAJOR design since I was involved with
> them.
>
> Makes no difference whether they are 2P full size or 2P half size
> c'bkr modules, they both have a common internal trip and a
> mechanical interlock to prevent insertion into an incorrect
> location.
>
> BTW, should see the words "common internal trip" molded into the
> case of a 2P device.
>
> Lew
>
>
>
>

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> I have a Radio Shack "8-Range Multitester " (bought new in 1979) : AC/DC
> Voltage .... 15V, 150V, 1000V
> This is the same thing you are talking about, right?
>
There are better ones out there, but for home handyman use, that will do
just fine. I went to electronics school long time ago and used the old
vacuum tube models. Those things were heavy and hot. But digital
electronics have made these things available to everybody for a modest cost.

"Bill" wrote
>
> Meter question: Understanding this will ease my concerns about my tester.
> How come one can hook it up to two hot 120 lines (240v) and NOT generate
> a meltdown in the unit? Big resisters? BTW, I have read some of the
> "one hand
> in the back pocket" sort of safety suggestions.
>
You apparently have a 1000 volt tester. It has the internal circuitry to
handle the load as long as it is set for the proper voltage. The important
thing is to just touch what you need tested with the test leads. You don't
use your fingers or other parts of your anatomy. You use the test device in
exactly the way it was intended to be used.

One old techie trick is to place one lead on one wire (or whatever) and
slowly move the other lead in very deliberately. This is to make sure you
don't touch anything other than the lead to the wires. Remember, people
don't get zapped from using the equipment properly. It usually happens when
they brush up against something while being a little too casual with how
they move their hands.

It is not that different from what can happen with a table saw. You never
take your eyes off of it and be very safety conscious. I should also point
out that getting zapped with the 220 voltage is a much bigger shock and more
serious than the regular 110 volts. DAMHIKT. So do exercise due caution when
working with the higher voltages.

But you are not going to get shocked by using the test equipment peoperly.
It is when you subsitute body parts for the test leads is when you get into
trouble. And have some kind of reference material handy so you know what the
voltage needs to be from one point to another. It it all tests out OK, your
machines will be happy.

"Swingman" wrote:

> My shop has a GE panel, not sure about the other two.
>
> Doing remodels I've had to chase down compatible c'bkr too many
> times to know that all of them are not created equal and aren't
> interchangeable from panel to panel for the most part ... how long
> has it been since you've been "involved with them"?
-----------------------------------------
End of '82.

The GECPDD (G E Circuit Protective Devices Department) made a big deal
out of the fact that their c'bkrs COULD NOT be incorrectly installed
in their load centers.

Molded case circuit breakers are a very mature business.

Even plug-in GFI c'bkrs have been around since the '70s

About the only product additions or improvements have been an increase
in interrupt ratings for the resi market.

If you take a look at a 2P GE Bkr, you should see about a 3/32 dia pin
that runs between the two cases.

You should be able to see it in the crack between the cases.

It is the mechanical interlock to prevent incorrect installation.

Just for grins, if you get a chance, open up your shop panel and see
if you can move a 2P device ONE space up or down and see if you can
install it.

Nother option.

Next time you buy a GE load center, try to incorrectly install a 2P
c'bkr while it is still on the bench before installation on the job.

Lew

"Swingman" wrote:
>
> Of course you can, Lew ... that's what I've been saying the whole
> time.
>
> Took less than 10 seconds to find this "trouble shooting" tale for
> the EXACT problem I was warning Bill to watch out for with some
> panels that take half height c'brks:
------------------------------------------
Went back and did a little homework on the GE.com site.

Molded case, thermal/magnetic, plug in c'bkrs are still using the same
catalog number nomenclature they were for at least the last 40 years
as follows:
=======================
THQP*##

H = 10,000A interrupt capacity
P = 1/2" module
* = Number of poles (1,2 or 3)
## = Amp rating
=======================
THQL*##

H = 10,000A interrupt capacity
L = 1" module
* = Number of poles (1,2 or 3)
## = Amp rating
=======================
The catalog numbering system for Load Centers is also the same as it
was 40 years ago.

You couldn't incorrectly install a GE c'bkr in a GE load center back
then and the fact the that same catalog numbers are still being used
today tells me nothing has changed.

If there was a change, there would be new catalog numbers.

This has been an old wife's tale for as far back as I can remember,
but you simply can not incorrectly a GE c'bkr in a GE load center.

BTW, it's been 28 years since I've looked at this stuff, not 18, but
hey, time flies when you are having fun.<G>

Lew

Bill wrote:

> thought Lew suggested separate circuits (though
> he never actually said that). That's not the reason, huh?
---------------------------------------

Standardization and simplicity.

Buy 500 ft spools of #10AWG, 105C insulation wire in Red, Black, White
& Green.

Use 3/4 PVC conduit.

Use 2P-30A, full size c'bkrs for each fixed 240V load (T/S, D/C,
Compressor, etc.)

Run individual 120V circuits using 1P-20A half size c'bkrs and #10AWG
wire to 2 gang, extra deep wall boxes wired with two (2) industrial,
back wired duplex receptacles.

Locate 2 gang boxes every 10-20 ft along wall, at 48" elevation.

Dedicate at least three (3), 1P-20A circuits for lighting.

Finally, buy a 10-2 with ground, 25 ft long molded cord set, chop off
the receptacle end and rewire with an extra deep, 2 gang box wired
with a pair of receptacles.

It becomes your "go to" extension cord.

NOTES:

Purpose of running #10AWG wire on 20A circuits for this job is
ECONOMY.

Standardizing on one size wire, then buying full spools of wire is
less costly than buying cut lengths of wire.

Running 3/4 conduit makes wire pulling a lot easier than using 1/2
conduit.

Using PVC conduit eliminates the need for buying a conduit bender and
learning how to use it.

If job was big enough to justify buying full spools of #10AWG &
#12AWG, then by all means do it, but this job isn't big enough.

Lew

"Mike Marlow" wrote:
> Bill - I am not trying to be insulting, but I am getting
> increasingly concerned. I have to ask you (and I hope you will
> think about this question...), how can you possibly work smart when
> you don't even know what "may be" your electrical shut off? You
> really need more knowledge before you move forward. Spend the
> money - bring in an electrician, and learn from him while he works.
<snip>
--------------------------------------
Now you have truly hit what is driving this discussion, MONEY, or more
definitively, Bill's unwillingness to spend it.

Lew

"Bill" wrote:
> I read that it's better to use 15A circuits for lighting since the
> wire in lighting fixtures is comparatively fine, such wiring may get
> screwed up by the time the C'Breaker switches off.
-----------------------------------------
You read too much.

By NEC definition, the c'bkr protects the distribution system, the
load device be damned.

You are only interested in protecting the insulation on the #12AWG
wire feeding the fixture, not the bloody fixture.

-----------------------------------------------
> I also read one shouldn't buy the cheapest flourescent lighting
> fixtures one can find as they tend to have cheap ballasters.
----------------------------------------
You usually get what you pay for.

These days fixtures with T-5 lamps are a pretty good value.

----------------------------------------

> Is this what you mean?
>
> http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/electrical/race-ways/metal-raceways/raceway-2g-bx-xdeep-hbl500-hbl750-iv?utm_source=biz_shop&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=B218418&utm_campaign=Metal-Raceways-biz_shop&infoParam.campaignId=WZ
-------------------------------------------
No that's not a two gang box.

Take a trip down to your local big box store electrical section and
take a look at the Raco products on display.

I'm sure you will find an extra deep, 2 gang, duplex box in inventory
along with a matching cover plate for two duplex receptacles.

It will solve a lot of problems a whole lot faster than screwing
around on the web.

Lew

On Mar 15, 11:25=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/15/2010 12:57 AM, Bill wrote:
>
> > Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is intere=
sted:
>
> >http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/sub_panel/01/new.htm
>
> Do what Lew said ...
>
> I REPEAT: Do what Lew said!!
>
> If you do what Lew said you will have no problems installing a sub-panel
> of the right kind that will be flexible and codeworthy (you haven't got
> into the issue of "grounding" a sub-panel yet, and, depending upon the
> location, you will most likely need to address grounding with an
> "insulated ground bar" which generally has to be purchased separately
> from the breaker box and installed therein).
>
> Save yourself some time, money, and redoing, by paying particular
> attention to what Lew said!
>
> Got the point yet?
>
> If not, get it ... by doing what Lew said! =A0:)
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)

I think he should do what Lew said to do.

Bill wrote:

>
> I'm equivalently excited about the electrical as I would be a new
> woodworking project.
> I came home with my subpanel feeling like it was Christmas--for only
> $29.99)! I told my
> wife I would not have been as excited about a $250 Solid-State-Drive
> (for the computer).
> So, with all due respect, there's something deeper than the greenback
> at stake here.
> It's more about control. Learning the skill to install switches,
> lights and and plugs everywhere and anywhere
> in the house I want. It feels good! Similarly, I bought a bunch of
> drywall tools--so I can practice in the garage and do
> nice paint and drywall work throughout my home. I think a lot is
> about the accomplishment that comes from doing something myself.
> Similarly, I'm interested in
> landscaping my yard--it's a canvas. The idea of paying someone else
> to do "my art" is completely unthinkable. When I mount several
> outlets and light panels on my shop ceiling it will be done in a
> more perfect than I could pay anyone to do, as no one cares about it
> more than I do. Maybe I do all this out of love. I'm Vawey
> passionate! : )

That's the perfect reason for learning to do things for yourself. I agree
with your motivation completely Bill. That said, somethings require more
knowledge, going into them than other things. Electrical work is one of
those. It's not black magic and it's not something you couldn't learn, but
it does bring more serious consequences when you do something wrong than a
bad cut in a piece of wood does.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 3/23/2010 10:04 AM, Bill wrote:

> Those of you who have been following this thread may find another true
> story amusing: About 2 dozen years back when I worked on Fort Sill, OK
> (home of the "Field Artillery School"),

Small world ... I'm a graduate of "Comanche County Canon Cockers
College" myself. Took AIT there, and graduated from Field Artillery
Officer Candidate School after that.

I liked OK ... except for the 3.2 beer, and the cowgirls who could whip
your butt in a game of 8 ball and holler "next!".

:)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

dpb wrote:

>
> Rural areas may well have had more than one service drop at the same
> farmstead -- we have two here; one for the well/farm buildings, the
> other serves the house.
>

Yeah - I had not thought about that. Somehow I got it into my head that
Bill was saying he had two meters on his house service and did not think
beyond that.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 3/16/2010 6:41 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote:
>
>> Not necessarily with all brands ... I'm looking at a box of NEW GE
>> 2p's from HD that will fit in any two slots in a 12/24 panel.
>>
>> Absolutely no doubt about it ...
> ----------------------------------
> Go back and check those GE c'bkrs again.
>
> If they fit, they have made a MAJOR design since I was involved with
> them.
>
> Makes no difference whether they are 2P full size or 2P half size
> c'bkr modules, they both have a common internal trip and a mechanical
> interlock to prevent insertion into an incorrect location.
>
> BTW, should see the words "common internal trip" molded into the case
> of a 2P device.

I'm not at the shop right now but I already know that I'm absolutely
certain about this ... did it personally when I installed the sub-panel
in the old shop; and have had it happen two other times in new houses in
contractor installed panels; there is no doubt whatsoever about that.

My shop has a GE panel, not sure about the other two.

Doing remodels I've had to chase down compatible c'bkr too many times to
know that all of them are not created equal and aren't interchangeable
from panel to panel for the most part ... how long has it been since
you've been "involved with them"?

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mar 16, 5:42=A0pm, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Bill" wrote
>
> > When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circui=
t
> > was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else t=
o
> > go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem=
.
>
> If you understand the layout and how to use a a multimeter, finding the
> problem is pretty straightforward.
>
> > I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working wi=
th
> > 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to plug it
> > into a 240v outlet. =A0I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking abou=
t
> > using it with gloves! : ) =A0I sure believe I should test any
> > outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.
>
> Again, get an inexpensive multimeter. =A0They are worth their weight in g=
old.
> They have settings for 110 =A0and 220 volts.
>
> When I moved into my present house, an idiot friend of the previous owner
> assured me the dryer outlet was OK. It wasn't wired up when we first look=
ed
> at it. I told my wife I was going to check it out, but she did not think =
it
> was important. She started the dryer and quickly became alarmed. I don't
> really recall exactly what happened but my honey assured me that the bad
> outlet was doing something mean to her dryer and she wanted it fixed RIGH=
T
> NOW!
>
> I checked it out with my multimeter and referenced an electrical book I h=
ad.
> Sure enough, it was wired incorrectly. =A0They just stuck the wires in th=
ere
> in a random order. I corrected that problem by measuring across the vario=
us
> wires until I found the right combination. Then I wired the outlet
> appropriately. The dryer worked fine.

Many years ago, my MIL was complaining about getting zapped off the
dryer. Thinking I was smart (an EE student, at the time) I grounded
the case of the dryer to the cold water pipe. That took out a 60A
fuse. Oh, my! I took the dryer apart, then the wall outlet. All was
fine there, but the entrance panel had the red and white wires
swapped. They had been living in the house for six months with the
case of the dryer sitting at 120V! The dryer was running off the
other 120V leg. After, she said that things were drying a *lot*
faster.

> But it didn't stop there. =A0The facuets to the washer leaked. So I had t=
o
> replace them. =A0I found the best quality faucets out there and put them =
in.
> They have worked fine since. I don't know where they found those junk
> faucets that was on there before.

Contractor specials, no doubt. The same place they found the $.39
outlets.

> Cuz when you move into a new house, the missus wants her things fixed fir=
st.

Yup. We bought a new house. I don't know why I thought things would
be different.

On 3/18/2010 1:04 PM, Bill wrote:

> BTW, the IM for the 15A saw I was looking at suggests putting the saw on
> a 20A circuit.

That'll work.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/16/2010 11:25 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Swingman" wrote:

> Just for grins, if you get a chance, open up your shop panel and see
> if you can move a 2P device ONE space up or down and see if you can
> install it.

Of course you can, Lew ... that's what I've been saying the whole time.

Took less than 10 seconds to find this "trouble shooting" tale for the
EXACT problem I was warning Bill to watch out for with some panels that
take half height c'brks:

http://tinyurl.com/ykq5vz6

Things have changed in 18 years ... not all for the good.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Bill wrote:

>
> Good story. My wife asked me why I spend so much time as I do
> mentioning all of the types of accidents that can occur in a shop. I
> explained that I'm trying to teach myself to avoid them. I think
> the main key strategy is not to be in a rush.
>

Not to be in a rush is a component of a good strategy. As is, learning from
someone who can show you what to do. The internet has a limited usefulness
in that area, when it comes to learning from scratch. A good strategy is to
go to someone who knows, and will tell you what you need to learn, and not
to rely on your own two cents to make that determination.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Not having seen your shop, I don't see why you would have any problems.
You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
Hot and a Ground/Common. ( But then so can/does 120V. If you are old
enough, you remember when all plugs only had two prongs.) While your
"could" split a 120V line off your 240V, I would not do it. You
mentioned you had 120V inside the shop, just run it to your current 240V
box (having run the 240v line, of course). You can do this by merely
tying another length of Romex cable to your existing outlet and running
it to the outside box, replacing the 240v socket, which you have already
moved inside, and weatherproof cover plate with ones for a 120v socket
and "bingo!"

As for your lighting - the more the better, I would definitely upgrade to
6, or maybe even 8 4' fixtures.

You mentioned "Code." That depends on where your live. Here in Alabama,
such mods are very common WITHOUT an inspection. However, for those of
you who live in more governmentally restrictive and union influenced
states, check with your local woodworkers for their advice. (Going to
the local government will invariably give you a "YES" answer, whereas
your woodworking buddies will tell you the truth. ;-) )

For what its worth.

Deb



On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:21:15 -0400, Bill wrote:

> Please excuse my top-posting here. I just wanted to mention that I went
> back and reread all of the responses I recieved to my post to the
> current thread a month ago and I am actively trying to incorporate some
> of the suggestions that were made into my shop design. I'm even
> learning a bit about electricity...who would have guessed that a 240v
> line is powered by two 120v lines! : )
>
> I've got a 240v line on the outside of the brick garage (previously used
> by an RV owner). I'd like to flip the line around for use on the inside
> and put 120v instead on the outside. I'm confident about the former,
> the latter I'll do if the outlet fixture sizes are compatible enough.
> Haven't done my homework on that yet as the idea just occurred to me a
> few days ago.
>
> I will surely need to take down the wallboard on the uninsulated wall on
> one side of the garage for the sake of the electrical improvements. The
> side which has our kitchen on the other side surely has insulation,
> other electric, plumbing?,etc., behind it. I am less enthused about
> "messing" with that wall. I'll have to give that more thought.
>
> My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
> Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?
>
> BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
> Plugs in the ceiling would be convenient..
>
> Thanks for listening,
> Bill
>
>
> Bill wrote:
>> At my site linked to below is a almost-to-scale model (pdf and
>> SketchUp) of the 20' by 20' garage
>> shop I am trying to assemble, as viewed from the omitted garage door.
>
>> Ignore the water purification system in the corner ; ) The workbench
>> design and tools are mostly accurate only to size. The BS has a mobile
>> base (not shown), the TS will get one too.
>
>> Besides for the 240V outlet on the one wall, there is 120V outlet on
>> each wall (I think
>> I should check and see whether they are wired on one circuit).
>
>
> You need more outlets. The more the better but at least 3 per wall IMO
> - I hate cords strung everywhere. At least two circuits, more better.
>
> The TS in the center is good but you need power for it. As I said, I
> hate cords strung everywhere so the outlet for my TS is in the ceiling.
> There are both 240v and 120v. Yes, a cord hangs down but at least it
> isn't always getting stepped on.
>
> Be sure you have at least eight feet in front of and behind the TS.
>
> You'll undoubtedly be adding bench top tools which implies more benches.
> When I build same I incorporate electrical outlets into them so that
> other tools or adjacent benches will have conveniently placed outlets.
>
> You need an area to store stuff...sheet goods, lumber, work in progress,
> etc.

Bill wrote:

> There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
> another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the
> pole is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the
> meter. No exterior lighting in the neighborhood--it's dark. Maybe
> there's an outlet I'm not aware of. But it doesn't make sense that
> if there were, that it would be on the back pole (unless it were
> cheaper and easier than running a 40' line underground). I've
> investigate further. My neighbor may be a source of info too--it's
> his pole too.

I cannot for the life of me imagine why there would be two meters on the
same service. I'd suggest you're seeing this incorrectly.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> Hmm...I have one of those too. The fine print at the link says "not
> for use with Ground Fault Interrupt -GFI outlets".
> So you show an outlet is GFCI protected by checking another outlet
> downstream (I've read that a GFCI breaker
> is often put on the first outlet off a line)? So, I take it that of
> the device an outlet properly grounded, and it's not directly
> grounded, then it must have been done upstream with GFCI? GFCI is
> one of those things I need to read up on...
>

You need to run that question past again Bill - it makes no sense as
written. I'll take a stab at what I think you might be asking. Your
outlets (devices) are always "directly" grounded - even if ground fault
protected. GFCI's simply separate the neutral from the ground at the device
so they can monitor leakage. The device is however, still very much
grounded, and all downstream outlets are grounded in the usual manner, which
is to say that they are installed just like any other outlet which is not
ground fault protected.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

I have 1000' or more of 2-phase High voltage onto and dead-end into my back
wood lot. I use two transformers. I have two meters.
One mailing address. Often - nasty as it sounds - they put the house on the
shop. And call the house not paid for 30 days...

So if you have two meters at the same address - pay attention and watch out!
Fee happy types - like the banks - are invading utilities.

Martin

dpb wrote:
> FrozenNorth wrote:
>> On 3/22/10 1:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
>>>> another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the
>>>> pole is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the
>>>> meter. No exterior lighting in the neighborhood--it's dark. Maybe
>>>> there's an outlet I'm not aware of. But it doesn't make sense that
>>>> if there were, that it would be on the back pole (unless it were
>>>> cheaper and easier than running a 40' line underground). I've
>>>> investigate further. My neighbor may be a source of info too--it's
>>>> his pole too.
>>>
>>> I cannot for the life of me imagine why there would be two meters on the
>>> same service. I'd suggest you're seeing this incorrectly.
>>>
>> Agreed, the two meters would never agree anyways, as the meters
>> themself will have some loss.
>
> Rural areas may well have had more than one service drop at the same
> farmstead -- we have two here; one for the well/farm buildings, the
> other serves the house.
>
> They're not the "same" service and I'm not suggesting that for Bill's
> case either. I'm simply suggesting it's possible one of those is
> possibly abandoned in place (specifically mentioned) and/or owing to
> being on an old farmstead he does still have two drops. In the later,
> they both should, indeed, show on the statements and they'll not have
> anything to do w/ each other.
>
> --

On 3/15/2010 12:57 AM, Bill wrote:

> Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is interested:
>
> http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/sub_panel/01/new.htm

Do what Lew said ...

I REPEAT: Do what Lew said!!

If you do what Lew said you will have no problems installing a sub-panel
of the right kind that will be flexible and codeworthy (you haven't got
into the issue of "grounding" a sub-panel yet, and, depending upon the
location, you will most likely need to address grounding with an
"insulated ground bar" which generally has to be purchased separately
from the breaker box and installed therein).

Save yourself some time, money, and redoing, by paying particular
attention to what Lew said!

Got the point yet?

If not, get it ... by doing what Lew said! :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/14/2010 2:34 PM, Bill wrote:
> Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be installing
> "4-wire" outlets if I'm
> planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?

Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.

The three wires needed for 220/240v operation are: Two hot wires (one
from each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The
ground wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary
for safety and code compliance.

The "four wire" cables/installations you mentioned are used for 220/240v
appliances (like stoves and dryers) that are also equipped with timers,
lights, etc, and that operate on 120v.

That said, there might be the ocassional woodworking tool that requires
120v also for lights and/or speed control circuits, etc ... so do your
homework before attempting to wire.

If you have one of these 4 wire circuits and don't need the extra wire,
then simply use the two hots wires, usually black and red (which
can/should be verified at the c'bkr) and the ground wire; and put a wire
nut/tape on the end of the neutral/white wire in the receptacle.

NOTE: some 220/240v circuits use "2 wire w/ground".

In this case the white, neutral, wire can be used as one of the two
necessary hot wires but it must be clearly marked on both ends, at the
c'bkr and the receptacle (generally with a wrap of black tape), so that
those coming after you know it is indeed being used as as a "hot" wire.

> I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
> lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
> wiring at the BORGs.

Most of those are well worth the price paid for a DIY'er. Don't confuse
yourself with learning about 3 phase power unless you have a need; take
your time, understand and think about what you're doing and don't do it
until you do ... it is not a bad idea for a home/shop owner to turn off
the power to the ENTIRE structure when doing electrical work (and if you
can lock up the service panel so that only you have access while doing
the work, so much the better).

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/16/2010 7:12 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> Some of what I've learned since I read Lew's post the first time:
>>
>> Evidentally, a load center is "Main Lug Only" when it doesn't have
>> it's own main breaker like the primary load center would probably
>> have.
>> Load Units, such as made by Eator Cutler-Hammer use descriptions such
>> as "12 spaces, 24 circuits".
>> If I learned part of my lesson yesterday, the only way you'd get 24
>> circuits would be to use 1 Hot
>> and a 1 Common for every circuit.
>
> In 120v circuits you would always use one Hot and one Neutral, plus a ground
> for every circuit, so if what you are trying to say is that you can only get
> 24 circuits by wiring only for 120v, then you would be correct. You get 24
> branch circuits by using mini breakers instead of full size breakers.
> Mini's will give you two breakers in the space of one. Each half of a mini
> gets wired the same way as a full sized breaker - a hot wire to the breaker
> and the neutral and ground to the respective buss bar(s).

Mike is spot on as usual.

There is one gotcha to watch for when using a 220 c'bkr in a load center
which, by design, can be used with both full size and mini breakers:

When using these load centers it is possible to insert the full size
220/240v c'bkr into two adjacent slots that are both fed by one hot leg
... the result being that you will get no voltage to the tool whatsoever.

Nothing dangerous will result, but you'll be left scratching your head. :)

Basically, just be careful when you install a 220/240v c'bkr that you
put it in two adjacent slots where each draws from a different bus. You
can do this visually.

On new houses I've even had licensed electricians do this (hopefully
accidentally) on more than one occasion. It is a PITA to be called on a
Thanksgiving morning when everything but the oven on a dual fuel stove
works. DAMHIKT

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Simple. Call the power company and mention that just maybe someone
is stealing power. Can they have a guy come out and check out this funny
connection.....

Await the experts.

martin

Bill wrote:
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm updatiing my description. It's dark outside and drizzling. Both meters
> are moving.
>
>
>> There's a meter on the back of the house (behind the main panel) and
>> another one on a pole 40 ft from the house. Below the meter on the pole
>> is a small box (15A), attached by conduit, to the bottom of the meter--no
>> more than a 3/8" gap betweeen them.
> A much longer piece of conduit (3/4"-1") comes out of the bottom of the side
> of the box and goes up into the back of the "transformer".
>
> It's concievable that the meter is my neighbors as we both have power lines
> from the same pole, in which case maybe it's his box (but it still doesn't
> make sense that the conduit goes back up into back of the transformer).
>
> My wife, who is pretty clever, and suggested turning it off to find out what
> its for! : )
>
> I think it's possible that my shut off in inside that 2'x2'x2.5' box I
> mentioned earlier, it's unlocked and would be easily reachable with a
> ladder. Another conceivable place is inside my meter's box--which has a
> special clip on it. I'm not going tampering with either, so I have no needs
> for any warnings! : ) Maybe I'll turn the small box off sometime though,
> just to see what happens....
>
> Bill
>
>

On 3/15/2010 11:00 AM, Robatoy wrote:

> I think he should do what Lew said to do.

Y'all go ahead and laugh, now! :)

I don't think it is apparent to the average person just how much
experience and knowledge is behind that information, particularly with
regard to the sub panel choice/type.

Trial and error on this issue can cost the neophyte beaucoup $$ ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Bill wrote:
>
>
> Lew, I printed out your detailed directions. Thank you. I also picked
> up the 125A, MLO, 12/24 Load Center today.
> It looked good, met the description, and was only $29.99 (at Menards),
> and before I knew it I said "I'll take it!".
> I'll look at it more carefully and I'll check that everything about it
> is truly suitable. I also picked up two 3/4" NM clamp connectors
> which I believe is appropriate for #6 or #8 wiring between the main
> and subpanel and--a wiring book. Also spent a while looking at indoor
> wiring and absorbing info about all sorts of related things with the
> awe of someone really seeing them for the first time. Maybe that's
> part of new-homeowner syndrome, or maybe it's because I had an
> "Erector Set" when I grew up (anyone remember those?).
>
> When I got home I looked at the Menards circular and kicked myself for
> not picking up "Ugly's Electrical References" on the NEC, on sale for
> $7.99.
>
> It is amazing how many home projects that I can consider now with much
> less "fear and trepidation" than I would have had a little over a week
> ago! Electrical plug not on the right side of the room--no problem! :
> )
>
> Best,
> Bill
>
>

Bill,

If you get a chance I would definately recommend the "Ugly's Electrical
References" book. I have one at my desk and far and away the most usefull
reference book that I have. I do low voltage designs for a living and it
covers that as well.

Good Luck,
Steve

Bill wrote:

>
> To try to ease anyone's mind, I will share with you that I called a
> relative with 30 years electrical experience yesterday. I never
> actually saw him do any of the work (a shame), but I KNOW he did it! He
> agreed to drive three hundred miles each way and do the hookup to
> the main panel and check all of my work once I've wired the subpanel
> and everything that draws power from it. Feel a little better? : )
>

Much. Now - to satisfy that nobel curiosity of yours, make sure to let all
the air out of his tires so that he can't just hook it up and leave, so that
you'll have time to have him teach you things beyond just the work at hand.
Great opportunity to learn and gain some new skills.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

> >> You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. =EF=
=BF=BDUnlike
> >> 120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) =
2
> >> Hot and a Ground/Common. ...
>
> > To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little =
or
> > no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an associat=
ed
> > ground, _no_ neutral.
Bill

Too much in your message(s) to really make meaningful/rational
comments.

So please get some more learning.

Also be aware that the RV power you mention is probably 30 or 50 amp
power. Sure it is 240 volt? And too small for the shop enviorment you
mention.

Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.

If you add a power (sub)panel that is sourced from your service panel
remember that are limitations in the code. The neutral and the ground
need to be separate and not connected circuits.

Bob AZ

Bill wrote:

>
> You did a nice job of explaining that (about the wire size). I
> honestly thought that a malfunction
> in one tool on a circuit could possibly result in the damage to
> another tool on the same circuit.
> I considered the separate circuits cheap insurance and that's why *I*
> thought Lew suggested separate circuits (though
> he never actually said that). That's not the reason, huh?
>

Nope. You want to separate your circuits by voltage type, and by load.
That is to say, (somewhat the obvious...), you'll run 240v circuits to a
couple of locations, depending on your machine needs. For installed
compressors, I generally run a dedicated circuit. For 120v pancake or other
small compressors - there is no need to dedicate a branch, but for large
compressors, it's a good plan. As others have already said, if you're going
to use a DC, it's a good candidate for lonliness. Other machines can plug
into a common branch, simply because you're not going to be using them at
the same time.

Likewise, you'll run 120v branches. Depending on how big your shop is,
you'll probably run one or two branch circuits for standard 120v outlets.
It's more likely that you'll have more than one thing plugged in and in use
at the same time, that run off of 120v. Not just power tools, but other
things that might suck up a bit of current. For this reason, having more
than one branch circuit is a good practice. I usually wire in 8 or less
outlets in a shop environment, on a single branch circuit. Then add one for
lights. So, right out of the chute, you could easily plan on 3 120v branch
circuits and 2 or 3 240v branch circuits.

Having the extra 120v branch circuits helps to prevent the kegerator from
kicking everytime you fire up yer circular saw for example.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 3/16/2010 3:50 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>> Besides kitchens and bathroom, most locales require GFCI protected
>> circuits in "garages" also ... a place where you, strangely enough,
>> find most woodworking "shops" these days. :)
>>
>
> iwires post from "mike_holts" forum, copied and pasted below
> (it makes interesting reading...). --Bill
>
>
>
> I will post the code rule for GFCIs in basements below but the short
> version is 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles must have GFCI protection.

I trust you are not interpreting that to mean that ALL 15 and 20 amp 120
volt receptacles must have GFCI protection?

BTW, what's a "basement"? :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 3/16/2010 9:12 AM, dpb wrote:

> And a separate circuit for every stationary tool unless you're a
> production shop w/ an employee at every workstation continuously through
> a shift is _WAY_ over the top overkill...

There may be one advantage (albeit slight) to wiring a "dedicated
circuit" for a stationary tool, particularly in shops in "garages" ... a
"dedicated circuit" is exempt from being GFCI protected in many locales.

At one time in the early days of GFCI, it was worth doing so as to not
have to deal with nuisance trips, which are no longer the problem they
once were.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:

>
> AAMOF, and from my observation, it's starting to verge on getting
> dangerous.

Damn - I was going to say this earlier. I was getting concerned about Bill
reading a bunch of stuff (some good and some not so much...), from various
web sites, etc. and was going to suggest that after reading about him
starting to "probe" into panels based on what he was reading, was becoming
of concern.

Bill - I'd really suggest you hook up with an electrician and get some real
hands-on time. I'm a bit concerned that you might not really understand the
stuff that's behind the grey panel cover. That could be very dangerous.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 3/21/2010 4:36 AM, Bill wrote:
> "Mike Marlow"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Another tip I learned while reading was to shut off all of the circuit
>>> breakers, before shutting off the main one, before adding a new one.
>>> Like Swingman says, this stuff makes sense, you just need someone to
>>> tell you what makes sense.
>>
>> Don't know where you learned that one Bill, but it's not right. There is
>> no need to shut off all of the branch breakers before shutting of the main
>> and there is no need to shut off the main before inserting a new breaker.
>>
>
> Thanks Mike. I read it at a do-it-yourself website. Thank you for pointing
> out
> that the web sites suggestion lacked integrity. FWIW, the justification at
> the
> web site was that it would result in less of a jolt to the system to turn
> off all the
> breakers before turning off the main one. Anything to that?

Bill ... there are two things that you need to keep in mind before
messing with electricity as a DIY'er, and that WILL protect you:

1. Protect yourself, from yourself, and from the wiring mistakes of
those who came before you by turning off the electricity to the entire
structure AT THE SOURCE.

2. No one has ever been electrocuted by a completely, and verifiably
_dead_, un-powered, un-electrified system ... IOW, and as Lew indicated
... go to the actual SOURCE, turn it off, lock it up, and put the key in
your pocket until you're done.

Another thing I've noted about your posts ... you keep talking about the
damned NEC.

Forget it! Reading the NEC is nothing but a confusing waste of your time
and you will learn nothing of a practical nature from reading it ...
guaranteed!

Leave the NEC to the inspectors and kibitzers.

Instead, buy yourself a couple of BASIC books on home wiring, starting
with something that covers the basics with lots of illustrations like these:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-Home-Wiring-Comprehensive/dp/0865734291/ref=sip_rech_dp_10

http://www.amazon.com/Orthos-About-Wiring-Basics-Improvement/dp/0897214404

You will learn more about the practical things you need to know to
actually wire your shop then you'll ever learn by reading the NEC, or
even hanging around the wRec asking scatter gun questions that are so
uninformed that they are difficult to answer, thus running a real risk
of receiving advice, or misinterpreting that advice, that may hurt you.

What you needed here you basically already have, good practical advice
on what to buy and what you need in order to design a good shop wiring
scheme.

At this point, your next step is to go learn how to do it ... and you're
simply not going to do that here.

AAMOF, and from my observation, it's starting to verge on getting dangerous.

;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Mar 16, 10:30=A0am, "Dave In Texas" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated circuit t=
o
> > each machine in your home shop.
>
> =A0 =A0 When I wired my garshop I did two separate 240v circuits; one run=
s the
> dust collector and the other the table saw and a 5hp compressor (neither =
of
> which ever runs congruently). =A0 How often do you run more than one devi=
ce at
> a time?
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Additionally, I ran four 120v circuits, two for power too=
ls with
> each wall having a mix of both circuits and a single circuit each for the
> freezer and a "beer box."
>
> Dave in Houston

Proper beer boxes are 550-V 3-phase, no?

J. Clarke wrote:

>
> While there is no _need_, turning them all off is a good idea in that
> when you turn the main back on you don't get every electrical device
> in the house starting up at once. Usually a nonissue but if you have
> a bunch of inductive loads you may not be able to reset the main
> breaker without turning off the others or turning off the loads.
>

It's the "usually" part of the above that is operative. I'll be none of us,
and certainly no one in Bill's category will ever have to worry about this.
True point, but not really relevant to Bill's world.

> And turning the main off before adding a breaker may not be strictly
> necessary, but if you're a butterfingers like me it's a damned good
> idea.

Oh you chicken...

>
> Both are common sense. They do no harm and may do some good.

They do no harm, for sure. But, they really don't do any good either.
Unless...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 3/16/2010 3:35 PM, Bill wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:

>> I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over a c'bkr that costs
>> less than $10, but dedicating a 2P-30 c'bkr for each 240V load not
>> only simplifies the installation but also allows you to isolate a
>> problem load without affecting other loads.
>>
> ...
>> Lew
>
>
>
> When the idea of adding an additional (flip) switch to each 240v circuit
> was suggested that was one of my concerns--that it was something else to
> go wrong, which would in turn would make it harder to isolate a problem.

This is a different issue than Lew's quote above.

I could have read his replied to post wrong, but it looks like Lew
"assumed" that I was talking about using two single poles c'bkrs in
place of a single two pole circuit breaker; and likewise when he was
assuming that you can't insert a 2 pole circuit breaker into any two
slots in any panel designed for using half height c'bkrs.

... if it is what it reads like, he is wrong in both assumptions. If
not, then I apologize in advance for reading it wrong.

> I've got an inexpensive voltimeter which has worked fine for working
> with 12v in the car, but I'm not sure whether it would be prudent to
> plug it into a 240v outlet. I won't say I'm skeered, but I was thinking
> about using it with gloves! : ) I sure believe I should test any
> outlet before I plug a new $1000 tool into it.

Don't know about your voltmeter, but ones that can be used for testing
all voltages are very inexpensive and handy to have it you're going to
be doing your own electrical work.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Bill wrote:

>
> I'll take care to try to work smart. Somebody broke the lock off on
> what I think may be my
> main shut off (and as noted, this is important!). I may call the
> power company.

Bill - I am not trying to be insulting, but I am getting increasingly
concerned. I have to ask you (and I hope you will think about this
question...), how can you possibly work smart when you don't even know what
"may be" your electrical shut off? You really need more knowledge before
you move forward. Spend the money - bring in an electrician, and learn from
him while he works.

> Let me describe my electric:
>
> Back of house has meter. Another meter is on the pole away from the
> house and just below
> is is a box with a 15A circuit breaker (which should probably have a
> lock on its box)! I was
> thinking this may be my main shutoff (and this is something I would
> really like to know).

Stop here Bill. You really need someone who knows this stuff to walk you
through this. Do yourself a favor and go that route.

> 4 feet above this meter is a 3' by 2' by 2' metal box
> (transformer/distributer?) which
> makes quite a lot of noise, and 20 feet or more above that is a 5 or
> 6 foot cylindrical thing (transformer?)

See above comment.

> near which power lines flow to other poles with cylindrical things 3
> or 4 houses away. What would be really nice to know
> is whether the 15A circuit breaker might be my "main shutoff"--but any
> relavant info would
> be useful to me, I'm sure.

No - it is not and I'll repeat my recommendation that you have not learned
enough from you diligent research to enable you to safely embark on your
mission. You have a great deal to learn, but it is information you could
learn quickly enough if you're willing to invest the time. Bring in that
electrician.

>
> I promise to strive to keep learning on my own.

That might possibly be your riskiest move...


> Thank you for your
> indulgence. I bought a pair
> of linesman's pliers--almost time to learn to use them!
>

You're scaring me Bill...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

> FWIW, the last two contractors I've hired (non-electrical) acted
> like I was in the way ("are you
> going to do it, or am I going to do it?"). I'm naturally drawn
> towards people who have something
> to teach me (and, conversely, I teach as part of my profession).
>
> I'm equivalently excited about the electrical as I would be a
> new woodworking project.
> I came home with my subpanel feeling like it was Christmas--for
> only $29.99)! I told my
> wife I would not have been as excited about a $250
> Solid-State-Drive (for the computer).
> So, with all due respect, there's something deeper than the
> greenback at stake here.
> It's more about control. Learning the skill to install
> switches, lights and and plugs everywhere and anywhere
> in the house I want. It feels good! Similarly, I bought a bunch
> of drywall tools--so I can practice in the garage and do
> nice paint and drywall work throughout my home. I think a lot
> is about
> the accomplishment that comes from doing something myself.
> Similarly, I'm interested in
> landscaping my yard--it's a canvas. The idea of paying someone
> else to do "my art" is completely unthinkable. When I mount
> several outlets and light panels on my shop ceiling it will be
> done in a more perfect than I could pay anyone to do, as no one
> cares about it more than I do. Maybe I do all this out of love.
> I'm Vawey passionate! : )
>
> amateur---a person who engages in a study, sport, or other
> activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or
> professional reasons
>

Bill, I sure agree with what you say. I'm like you in a way, and
want to see and participate if reasonably possible in things done
for me. I've never been embarrassed to look over the shoulder of
a mechanic adjusting a carb or timing the distributor, have not
hesitated to "join in and watch" when they're doing my brakes etc.
It isn't for money and sure as heck isn't intended to "impress
them with all that I know." Instead, it's a bit like going to
school and watching a prof. working in the lab.

FWIW, I've also hired things done that I was perfectly capable of
doing myself, but just didn't want to do. About 15 years back, we
were having a big shindig at the house and I wanted my deck
pressure washed and restained. The guy kept promising to show up
and do it, but then would miss the appointment. Finally, I said,
"To heck with him," (or something like that), and got out my
pressure washer, cleared the stuff off the deck and from beneath
it, and washed it thoroughly. The following AM, I masked off the
house, got out my airless sprayer, bought 15 gallons of stain and
easily did most of the deck. The only glitch was having to send
the bride to the store for more stain. I did the deck inside and
out, of course, but also underneath as well.

Soon after finishing and replacing the furniture, grill fountains,
foliage etc., the guy showed up with his pressure washer in the
back of the truck. His eyes got big when he saw the deck and
wondered who I'd hired to do it. I told him, "Brad, there's a
difference between not being able or having the equipment to do
something, and just not wanting to do it myself."

--
Nonny

Our Congress and White House are like an
overflowing, fetid toilet. It’s time to flush it, though
knowing it will soon refill with the same filth. We need
a radical change where the productive people again rule.

On 3/23/2010 11:40 AM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 3/23/2010 10:04 AM, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> Those of you who have been following this thread may find another true
>>> story amusing: About 2 dozen years back when I worked on Fort Sill, OK
>>> (home of the "Field Artillery School"),
>>
>> Small world ... I'm a graduate of "Comanche County Canon Cockers
>> College" myself. Took AIT there, and graduated from Field Artillery
>> Officer Candidate School after that.
>>
>> I liked OK ... except for the 3.2 beer, and the cowgirls who could
>> whip your butt in a game of 8 ball and holler "next!".
>>
>> :)
>
> I didn't mind the 3.2 beer. I used to practice my 8-ball at the "Little
> Brown Jug" on Fort Sill Blvd. sometimes on the weekend. That was one of
> the "classier" little bars in that area. I learned that I liked Korean
> food at the little cafe about 4 doors down from there. I maintained my
> enthusiasm for Korean food for quite a while. It made me sweat a lot
> when I ate it, but I ate it anyway. Unfortunately, I've since had to go
> with a kinder, gentler diet. I enjoyed the wildlife refuge at Fort Sill
> alot--hiking, climbing, fishing... That was a nice amenity. Fond
> memories...

Was a great place for Western Swing too.

There was an old fashioned beer joint/dance hall/roadhouse down the road
from Lawton, in Cache, OK, ... a place where I got to see many of my
musical heroes, like Hank Thompson, and many musicians who had been with
Bob Wills in the 30's and 40's, playing in bands who came through the
area ... I've actually had the pleasure of playing with many of them
since I first saw them there in the sixties.

Years later, and just for grins, I went back to OK and took the farrier
course at Bud Beaston's Oklahoma Farriers College in Sperry, to once
again get my butt whipped by Oklahoman, female pool players. :)

You're right, fond memories ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Dave In Texas wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> You really don't need to install a disconnect for a dedicated
>> circuit to each machine in your home shop.
>
> When I wired my garshop I did two separate 240v circuits; one runs
> the dust collector and the other the table saw and a 5hp compressor
> (neither of which ever runs congruently). How often do you run more
> than one device at a time?

The compressor is the one I'd consider being hardwired by itself. There are
a lot of times when I'm using another tool while the compressor is running.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mar 15, 12:04=A0pm, "Lee Michaels"
<leemichaels*[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote
> On Mar 15, 11:25 am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 3/15/2010 12:57 AM, Bill wrote:
>
> > > Here is a relavant DIY-type link I found, in case anyone else is
> > > interested:
>
> > >http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/elect/panel/sub_panel/01/new.htm
>
> > Do what Lew said ...
>
> > I REPEAT: Do what Lew said!!
>
> > If you do what Lew said you will have no problems installing a sub-pane=
l
> > of the right kind that will be flexible and codeworthy (you haven't got
> > into the issue of "grounding" a sub-panel yet, and, depending upon the
> > location, you will most likely need to address grounding with an
> > "insulated ground bar" which generally has to be purchased separately
> > from the breaker box and installed therein).
>
> > Save yourself some time, money, and redoing, by paying particular
> > attention to what Lew said!
>
> > Got the point yet?
>
> > If not, get it ... by doing what Lew said! :)
>
> > --www.e-woodshop.net
> > Last update: 10/22/08
> > KarlC@ (the obvious)
>
> I think he should do what Lew said to do.
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> Does that include the installation of the epoxy workstation?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

you are mean......*smirk*

On 3/22/2010 12:02 AM, Bill wrote:

> No one answered my question--what the 15A c'breaker below the meter on the
> pole below the transformers(?) might be for--maybe a protector for the meter
> on the pole? The lock rusted off of it and apparently the electric company
> isn't concerned.

On your side of the meter that meters your electrical usage?

If it's on your side of the meter the electric company may not want to
even be involved, their involvement stops at either their side of the
meter, or in many places at the service head.

Do you have an outdoor light? A 15A exterior circuit sounds like it
would be for exterior lighting, or perhaps feeding an exterior
receptacle for garden use.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Delbert Freeman wrote:
...

> You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
> 120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
> Hot and a Ground/Common. ...

To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little
or no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an
associated ground, _no_ neutral.

Three wire appliance outlets (no longer NEC Code-compliant, now need
four) utilized the ground conductor as the 120V neutral as well for the
120V (components like motor, light, etc.) but the 240V heater coil is
tied directly across the two hot and isn't anywhere connected to a
"neutral". Ditto for 240V motors; there's a third wire but it's ground,
not neutral and the motor doesn't care whether it's there or not.

To go on for OP who seemed surprised to learn what 240V comprises, the
240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
(being AC) measures 120V to a neutral. While these are commonly called
"phases", the phase there is the time shift within a single one of the
three phase generation phases from the powerco. It's still single-phase
power.

--

Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be installing
"4-wire" outlets if I'm
planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?

I've done a bit of reading, so I'm not as naive as I was a week ago, but I
was surprised to learn:

"240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
> leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
> the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
> difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
> (being AC) measures 120V to a neutral.

I have also learned about 3-phase power and the correspondance to induction
motors so this makes sense to
me in that context--expecially in that the hot lines to coils in the motor
will be hooked up in parallel rather than in series as in 120v
(that is the most sophisticated statement I can make about this matter at
this point and I offer it only as an indication of my level of preparedness
which is weak due to limited experience. I expect I can do this project if
I proceed cautiously).

I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
wiring at the BORGs.

Thank you,
Bill





"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Delbert Freeman wrote:
> ...
>
>> You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines. Unlike
>> 120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
>> Hot and a Ground/Common. ...
>
> To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little or
> no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an associated
> ground, _no_ neutral.
>
> Three wire appliance outlets (no longer NEC Code-compliant, now need four)
> utilized the ground conductor as the 120V neutral as well for the 120V
> (components like motor, light, etc.) but the 240V heater coil is tied
> directly across the two hot and isn't anywhere connected to a "neutral".
> Ditto for 240V motors; there's a third wire but it's ground, not neutral
> and the motor doesn't care whether it's there or not.
>
> To go on for OP who seemed surprised to learn what 240V comprises, the
> 240V is generated by tapping from a transformer at such points that one
> leg is 180-deg out of phase (in time) w/ the other so when one leg is at
> the positive sine peak the other is at it's negative max. The RMS
> difference between these is then the 240V your voltmeter sees while each
> (being AC) measures 120V to a neutral. While these are commonly called
> "phases", the phase there is the time shift within a single one of the
> three phase generation phases from the powerco. It's still single-phase
> power.
>
> --

Bill wrote:
> Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be
installing
> "4-wire" outlets if I'm planning to purchase new 220v tools from
> Delta or Grizzly, correct?

Not for "ordinary" 240V outlets, no. The four-wire connection is for
things like appliances that have both 240V and 120V loads that _used_ to
share the grounding conductor for the 120V neutral. A power saw, etc.,
that is just a 240V motor load doesn't have any use for the 120V and so
doesn't need anything other than the usual 3-wire 240V.

Used to be stuff like drill presses, etc., had a 120V accessory light
that was powered by one side of the 240V in a similar fashion but it
seems based on some other postings here that they've quit doing that in
one of two ways -- either no more courtesy light or it requires a 240V bulb.

OBTW, this is for US 120V/240V obviously, the UK and others run 240V as
does the US 120V w/ a single hot/neutral and don't have 120V routinely
(which is why ordinary US appliances are of essentially no value over
there, of course... :) ).

...

> I probably should examine a book (on setting up/modifying new existing
> lines). Any suggestions regarding a book? I recall seeing a few books on
> wiring at the BORGs.
...

I better let somebody else recommend recent books rather than guess --
I'm so much an old fogey the most recent thing I have dates to the 80s
maybe at the latest and may well be 20 yrs older than that, even, I'm
not sure... :)

I know most of the biggest new restrictions in the NEC simply by word of
mouth; I also tend to ignore most of them here on the farm and in the
shop figuring if it's been good enough for 50 years or so it couldn't
have been _too_ bad... :) That, of course, isn't to be taken as a
recommendation against following Code in new work...

--

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 3/14/2010 2:34 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Thank you for the lessons in electricity! I take it I should be
>> installing
>> "4-wire" outlets if I'm
>> planning to purchase new 220v tools from Delta or Grizzly, correct?
>
> Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
> total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.
>


> The three wires needed for 220/240v operation are: Two hot wires (one from
> each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The ground
> wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary for safety
> and code compliance.

Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?


BTW, I noticed that my outlet on the outside has a single 30 Amp breaker
and that the interior one has a double 50-Amp breaker (s). The 30 Amp one
on the outside
was used by the previously owner for his RV and the interior one for
welding.

My biggest tool will be a 3HP TS which Grizzly suggests a 20 Amp circuit
for. My thought was to
put a Delta 1.5 HP DC on the 30 Amp line and a series of outlets along a
wall that would support
other 220v machinery (including the TS). It seems like the 50-Amp circuit
would support several machines, one-at-a-time,
with the possible future attachment of things like a heater, for example,
later if desired.
Additionally, I'd add another 120v line for the same wall (outlets about 4
feet apart) and provide another
120v line for use by the workbench (tools).

Currently, my garage lights and outlets share a line with with the kitchen
outlets, and it is nice that a pair of
garage lights come on with the flip of a switch from the kitchen. I may add
another line for the
ceiling which would support 4 florescent lights and for whatever tool might
be convenient to plug in there.

So, that would proivde me with a total of 3 120v lines and 2 240v lines for
tools and would leave me with 3 empty slots in my junction box. Some person
dedicated two 120v lines to power 2 separate bedroom ceiling fans (seems
like a waste). Powering them from other existing circuits is probably not
worth the bother since I don't know how to easily do it. Powering them
together with one circuit may be worth considering, if necessary! If
nothing else, it would give me something to do in my free time after I
finish grinding and epoxying the floor. ; )

SWMBO is ready to see furniture being made! ; ) She doesn't see this as
all being part of the process.

Every time I come back here I think this through a little further..I'm going
to print this out so I don't forget! ; )

Thanks,
Bill

"Bob AZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a8f12aed-6573-43cc-9c41-11f4bcd302da@l12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...


> >> You are right about the 240v being, essentially, two 120v lines.
> >> ?Unlike
> >> 120V, which has a Hot, Common and Ground, the 240 has (or can run on) 2
> >> Hot and a Ground/Common. ...
>
> > To clarify for OP what could be misinterpreted given it appears little
> > or
> > no familiarity exists...240V has _only_ two 120V 'hots' and an
> > associated
> > ground, _no_ neutral.

I'm sorry MS-Outlook6 does such a poor job of formatting my reply. I typed
after
the dashes.




Too much in your message(s) to really make meaningful/rational
comments.

So please get some more learning.

Also be aware that the RV power you mention is probably 30 or 50 amp
power. Sure it is 240 volt? And too small for the shop enviorment you
mention.

-------------
I just went and looked at it with a flashlight--125v, 30-Amps, "for
Travel-trailer
use only". The plug shape made me think it was 220...
Maybe the line would be suitable for a dedicated DC. I need to learn more
about that outlet.



Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
complex than what has been mentioned here.

----
Yes, I know little more than that I have a 3 year old (due to hail damage)
200 amp service
and a 220 with 50 amp breakers, which was used for welding (which I assume
suggests
a certain level of integrity).



If you add a power (sub)panel that is sourced from your service panel
remember that are limitations in the code. The neutral and the ground
need to be separate and not connected circuits.

---
Bob, I had not thought of adding a subpanel. I will need to learn more
about the implications of that.
Thank you for your reply. -Bil.





Bob AZ

Bill wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
...

>> Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
>> total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.
>>
>
>
>> The three wires needed for 220/240v operation are: Two hot wires (one from
>> each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The ground
>> wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary for safety
>> and code compliance.
>
> Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?


_NO!!!_

That's what I said earlier and Swing just reiterated -- the ground for a
240V-only motor/appliance/heater/whatever is _purely_ a safety ground.
Remove it and the operation of the device will be totally unaffected.
The only purpose it serves is to ground the case in the event of a fault
that would somehow otherwise energize it.

The circuit is completed between the two legs -- remember, this is AC
and my description of the way in which the voltages are generated as
being tapped from different points on the transformer so one leg is
positive while the other is negative (at the peaks, since the driving
voltage is a sine wave they're both varying continuously but always with
this same 180-degree lag of one relative to the other). Owing to that,
one is always positive with respect to the other (except at the instant
of crossing, of course, and w/ a varying amplitude that is in RMS terms
the 240V) and the current flows from the higher to the lower thru the
device, the direction and magnitude at any time depending on that
varying potential and the load characteristics. Hence the ground in the
240V-only case never sees any current flow at all and can be dispensed
with except for the safety reasons.

The difference is in the split-voltage 120/240V case where there's a
device of both voltages on three-wire service. Then, since the 120V
device _does_ have to have a return, the ground conductor also serves
that role. As noted earlier, that is what the NEC has now outlawed
requiring 4-conductor service to keep the 120V neutral and the safety
ground separate to serve their individual functions.

>
>
> BTW, I noticed that my outlet on the outside has a single 30 Amp breaker
> and that the interior one has a double 50-Amp breaker (s). The 30 Amp one
> on the outside
> was used by the previously owner for his RV and the interior one for
> welding.
>
> My biggest tool will be a 3HP TS which Grizzly suggests a 20 Amp circuit
> for. My thought was to
> put a Delta 1.5 HP DC on the 30 Amp line and a series of outlets along a
> wall that would support
> other 220v machinery (including the TS). It seems like the 50-Amp circuit
> would support several machines, one-at-a-time,
> with the possible future attachment of things like a heater, for example,
> later if desired.
...

The 50A service is more than adequate for everything you'll likely ever
have in the shop (other than perhaps if you add a bunch of electric
heat). The rub is, Code won't allow putting a 20A or 30A outlet on a
circuit protected for more than the rating of the outlet (for obvious
reasons if you think about it (and this is one that I _wouldn't_ break
despite my previous comments :) ) ).

I don't know if you could find 50A standard configuration 240V outlets;
would doubt it. OTOMH, the options I'd see would be

a) Swap the 50A breaker for the rating of outlet(s) you want to use
(Code is happy if conductors are larger than allowed minimums for any
given size breaker),

b) Put in a small subpanel to feed the convenience outlets and wire them
w/ 10g or whatever is appropriate for the chosen feeder breaker for the
subcircuit

--

...
> Where and how 240 volts is sourced to the consumer, has been mentioned
> here, but the details that transform the high voltage on the power
> pole or in the power vault that is near you property line is more
> complex than what has been mentioned here.
...
But those details are of absolutely no concern for the subject. The
level of detail that explains what he has at his panel is more than
adequate for now...

--

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bill wrote:
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
> ...
>
>>> Nope ... most 220/240v woodworking tools in North America only need a
>>> total of 3 wires to both work properly and comply with code.
>>>
>>
>>
>>> The three wires needed for 220/240v operation are: Two hot wires (one
>>> from each hot leg of the service/sub panel), and one ground wire. The
>>> ground wire, while not necessary to power the equipment, is necessary
>>> for safety and code compliance.
>>
>> Isn't the ground, then, "completing the circuit" in this case?
>
>
> _NO!!!_
>

Okay, I got it now! I think we only studied DC circuits in electronics
class in H.S. ; )
I didn't realize the elevated-sophistication of 240v power compared to
120v...


> The 50A service is more than adequate for everything you'll likely ever
> have in the shop (other than perhaps if you add a bunch of electric heat).
> The rub is, Code won't allow putting a 20A or 30A outlet on a circuit
> protected for more than the rating of the outlet (for obvious reasons if
> you think about it (and this is one that I _wouldn't_ break despite my
> previous comments :) ) ).
>
> I don't know if you could find 50A standard configuration 240V outlets;
> would doubt it. OTOMH, the options I'd see would be
>
> a) Swap the 50A breaker for the rating of outlet(s) you want to use (Code
> is happy if conductors are larger than allowed minimums for any given size
> breaker),
>
> b) Put in a small subpanel to feed the convenience outlets and wire them
> w/ 10g or whatever is appropriate for the chosen feeder breaker for the
> subcircuit
>

I like option (b) if I can power the subpanel with the 50 amp line. Thank
you for pointing
out the issue beween the 240V outlets and the 50A power line. I'll take a
really close
look at what type of outlet is on it now (and I'm not sure if welders use a
special 50A outlet or not).

Thank you for your help!
Bill

>>My current interior 220v outlet is currently pretty close to the floor.
>>Does the electrical "code" cite a minimum for that?
>
> If it's there, leave it. Does it get wet?

It's just 6" off of the ground. It doesn't get wet.


>
>>BTW, I currently have 3 36" neon lamps..I think I'm going to have 6.
>>Plugs
>>in the ceiling would be convenient..
>
> Fluorescent?

Yes, What a strangely spelled word (I checked)!

--Bill