As I find myself doing more work with hand tools, and working on larger projectt, I find I've
outgrown my workbench, and it's time to make -- not buy -- one better suited to my needs.
I think I've pretty much decided to use a leg vise in the face-vise position, combined with a
sliding deadman along the front face. This should give me adequate support, I think, for
working long boards on their edges, and for cutting dovetails in drawer sides, and so on.
But I'm still wondering what to use as an end vise. I see *lots* of benches with an L-shaped
tail vise at the end. And I must confess I'm mystified. What benefit do you get from a tail vise
that you can't get from some other, simpler, less-expensive configurarion?
In particular, I have a Wilton vise similar to this one
http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af239/whtsup/4264582093.jpg
that I bought at an auction a while back for ten bucks or so, and I'm thinking about mounting
a wooden face about 16" wide on it, and using that for my end vise.
Questions:
What (if anything) is wrong with that plan?
What might I be overlooking?
What advantages (if any) might a tail vise have over that?
On 4/7/2013 11:21 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 4/7/2013 9:24 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vises like this one?
>>> http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>>>
>>
>> Ohhhh, that is a good question... Looking at it, the wood is totally
>> different from the rest of the bench so perhaps it was moved from
>> another bench to this one and this is how it came out to fit.
>>
>> I don't recall having ever seen this "L" shape at all in the past, have
>> you seen others examples?
>
> There are examples everywhere, this is just one of many
> http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2081005/30367/pinnacle-large-traditional-
> cabinetmakers-workbench.aspx
Yup
>
> For that matter, what's the purpose of this type of vise?
> http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.html
>
> I just don't see the benefit.
>
I just had a brilliant idea, email Solberg, obviously I am guessing
on the spelling, and ask them what the purpose is.
I certainly see the purpose for this location but like you the "L"
portion is the puzzle unless it is to simply to be something that the
mechanical portion of the vice attaches to. Possibly guide rods to
insure that it travels in a straight line. A top view would be nice.
On 4/7/2013 3:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 04/07/2013 11:47 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:5161affa$0$13585$c3e8da3 [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> This has some ideas:
>>>> http://carlswoodworking.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/tail-vise-opti
>>>> ons/
>>>>
>>>> and this:
>>>> http://workbenchdesign.net/
>>>
>>> Ideas, yes, but not explanations. I'm still trying to figure
>>> out what advantage(s), if any, an end vise like this
>>>
>>> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail03.jpg?w
>>> =300&h=235
>>>
>>> or this
>>>
>>> http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.jpg
>>>
>>> might have over one like this
>>>
>>> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail09.jpg?w
>>> =530
>>>
>> The one comment on the L vise was that it tended to sag.
>
> Yep. I've seen that comment in a number of places. And they're
> harder to build.
>
> So why are they on so many benches? Still trying to figure out how
> that's any improvement over simply mounting a normal Record or
> Wilton vise at the end of the bench...
>
See the binaries I posted pics of Frank Klauz's bench article.. just the
tail vise section... pictures are worth a 1000 words.
--
Jeff
On 4/7/2013 1:04 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/7/2013 11:21 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On 4/7/2013 9:24 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail
>>>> vises like this one?
>>>> http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ohhhh, that is a good question... Looking at it, the wood is totally
>>> different from the rest of the bench so perhaps it was moved from
>>> another bench to this one and this is how it came out to fit.
>>>
>>> I don't recall having ever seen this "L" shape at all in the past, have
>>> you seen others examples?
>>
>> There are examples everywhere, this is just one of many
>> http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2081005/30367/pinnacle-large-traditional-
>>
>> cabinetmakers-workbench.aspx
>
> Yup
>
>
>
>>
>> For that matter, what's the purpose of this type of vise?
>> http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.html
>>
>> I just don't see the benefit.
>>
> I just had a brilliant idea, email Solberg, obviously I am guessing
> on the spelling, and ask them what the purpose is.
>
>
> I certainly see the purpose for this location but like you the "L"
> portion is the puzzle unless it is to simply to be something that the
> mechanical portion of the vice attaches to. Possibly guide rods to
> insure that it travels in a straight line. A top view would be nice.
Yes that is also part of it. When made of wood the l provides supporting
guide rails on the L.
When you look at it from underneath or flipped over.
It is the part that prevents racking. And separation of the L piece from
the Jaw since the JAW continues under the bench.
--
Jeff
On 4/7/2013 10:49 AM, Bill wrote:
> Doug Miller wrote:
>> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail
>> vises like this one? http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>
> I think it allows easier access to "both sides" of the fore-mentioned
> table leg. It's also a thing of beauty, no? : )
> It reminds me of the craftsmen who desired to exhibit their expertise
> via their tool chests.
> Surely such detail is not superfuous if it helps put food on the table,
> or for a number of other good reasons!
>
> Bill
NO it doesn't allow access to both sides of the table leg!
--
Jeff
On 4/7/2013 3:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 04/07/2013 11:47 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:5161affa$0$13585$c3e8da3 [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> This has some ideas:
>>>> http://carlswoodworking.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/tail-vise-opti
>>>> ons/
>>>>
>>>> and this:
>>>> http://workbenchdesign.net/
>>>
>>> Ideas, yes, but not explanations. I'm still trying to figure
>>> out what advantage(s), if any, an end vise like this
>>>
>>> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail03.jpg?w
>>> =300&h=235
>>>
>>> or this
>>>
>>> http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.jpg
>>>
>>> might have over one like this
>>>
>>> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail09.jpg?w
>>> =530
>>>
>> The one comment on the L vise was that it tended to sag.
>
> Yep. I've seen that comment in a number of places. And they're
> harder to build.
>
> So why are they on so many benches? Still trying to figure out how
> that's any improvement over simply mounting a normal Record or
> Wilton vise at the end of the bench...
>
Because they offer a lot of benefits too. The sagging can be fixed.
Usually the support pieces underneath need redoing.
I'll see if I can post a pic of the underneath of an L from Frank
Klausz's bench.
--
Jeff
>That said, this is a great place to visit and get ideas and premium
>parts for your bench should you decide to go with top end stuff.
>
>
>http://benchcrafted.com/TailVise.html
>
>The videos are worth a look too if you have not been here.
>
>http://benchcrafted.com/TailVise.html
Cool site, the videos are interesting.
But, what is the purpose or function of the split tops on the benches?
-Zz
"Zz Yzx" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>That said, this is a great place to visit and get ideas and premium
>>parts for your bench should you decide to go with top end stuff.
>>
>>
>>http://benchcrafted.com/TailVise.html
>>
>>The videos are worth a look too if you have not been here.
>>
>>http://benchcrafted.com/TailVise.html
>
> Cool site, the videos are interesting.
>
> But, what is the purpose or function of the split tops on the benches?
>
It is just a tool tray. This is a feature on many benches on one side. If
you add another top on the other side, then you have the split top bench.
Two problems with this though. 1) Those tool trays are shavings, sawdust,
junk collectors. I know I have one. You have to clean them out regularly
or parts, small tools etc get lost in there. 2) If you had a large project
on a split top bench, it could end covering up the tool tray. You would
then lose access to whatever was in there.
One feature that I have built into a number of benches, that I really like,
is a tool shelf UNDER the top. About 8 - 10 inches is tall enough. You can
put all kinds of things under there, access them immediately, and not have
it clutter or compromise the primary work surface.
On 04/07/2013 07:24 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Why a 16" face?
>> Not sure how wide your vise is, but I think a 16" face might be a little
>> much for a tail vise. Why?
>
> Increase its clamping capacity.
>
>> Because a tail vise you will put the dog in near the edge of your bench.
>
> Right.
>
>> So assuming you're not using the dog on the vice you will need to mount
>> it off center, and with a 16" block that give you a lot of leverage to
>> twist your vise and ruin it.
>
> Planning to use spacers as needed to keep the vise from twisting. I have to do that now
> anyway because my current bench has a cheap vise that twists if you look at it funny, so I'm
> used to it.
>>
>> You can get by with a slight off center dog (I have one in my block
>> mounted to my metal vise similar to yours) but it is maybe 1 " off
>> center from the vise so I could get it closer to the edge.
>>
>> If I mis understood the question sorry.
>
> I think you did, but I appreciate your comments anyway. Your points are certainly valid, but I
> think I've already taken those concerns into account as I described -- if you disagree, I'd
> certainly like to hear your reasons.
>
> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vises like this one?
> http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>
This has some ideas:
http://carlswoodworking.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/tail-vise-options/
and this:
http://workbenchdesign.net/
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 04/07/2013 11:47 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:5161affa$0$13585$c3e8da3
> [email protected]:
>
>> This has some ideas:
>> http://carlswoodworking.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/tail-vise-options/
>>
>> and this:
>> http://workbenchdesign.net/
>
> Ideas, yes, but not explanations. I'm still trying to figure out what advantage(s), if any, an end
> vise like this
>
> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail03.jpg?w=300&h=235
>
> or this
>
> http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.jpg
>
> might have over one like this
>
> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail09.jpg?w=530
>
The one comment on the L vise was that it tended to sag.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 04/07/2013 12:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 04/07/2013 11:47 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:5161affa$0$13585$c3e8da3 [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> This has some ideas:
>>>> http://carlswoodworking.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/tail-vise-opti
>>>> ons/
>>>>
>>>> and this:
>>>> http://workbenchdesign.net/
>>>
>>> Ideas, yes, but not explanations. I'm still trying to figure
>>> out what advantage(s), if any, an end vise like this
>>>
>>> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail03.jpg?w
>>> =300&h=235
>>>
>>> or this
>>>
>>> http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.jpg
>>>
>>> might have over one like this
>>>
>>> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail09.jpg?w
>>> =530
>>>
>> The one comment on the L vise was that it tended to sag.
>
> Yep. I've seen that comment in a number of places. And they're
> harder to build.
>
> So why are they on so many benches? Still trying to figure out how
> that's any improvement over simply mounting a normal Record or
> Wilton vise at the end of the bench...
>
Here's one guys argument for the traditional tail vise:
<http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/180/The%20Argument%20for%20a%20Traditional%20Tail%20Vise>
or
http://tinyurl.com/bqexwco
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 12:04:50 -0500, Leon wrote:
> On 4/7/2013 11:21 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On 4/7/2013 9:24 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail
>>>> vises like this one?
>>>> http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Ohhhh, that is a good question... Looking at it, the wood is totally
>>> different from the rest of the bench so perhaps it was moved from
>>> another bench to this one and this is how it came out to fit.
>>>
>>> I don't recall having ever seen this "L" shape at all in the past,
>>> have you seen others examples?
>>
>> There are examples everywhere, this is just one of many
>> http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2081005/30367/pinnacle-large-
traditional-
>> cabinetmakers-workbench.aspx
>
> Yup
>
>
>
>
>> For that matter, what's the purpose of this type of vise?
>> http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.html
>>
>> I just don't see the benefit.
>>
> I just had a brilliant idea, email Solberg, obviously I am guessing
> on the spelling, and ask them what the purpose is.
>
>
> I certainly see the purpose for this location but like you the "L"
> portion is the puzzle unless it is to simply to be something that the
> mechanical portion of the vice attaches to. Possibly guide rods to
> insure that it travels in a straight line. A top view would be nice.
I have a SJÃBERGS catalog and they show only one bench with an L vise,
it is holding a round object with concave jaws in the vise.
basilisk
On 4/7/2013 12:04 PM, Leon wrote:
> I certainly see the purpose for this location but like you the "L"
> portion is the puzzle unless it is to simply to be something that the
> mechanical portion of the vice attaches to. Possibly guide rods to
> insure that it travels in a straight line. A top view would be nice.
Ok, think about actually building the vise. You can't really depend on
the screw to support the vice so that has to be at least one guide rod.
Because the main long section has through dog holes the screw and or
the guide rod can't go through that section either. So the screw has to
be off set. I am guessing that the screw is to the right of the main
section of the vice and there is a guide rod in the "L" section to keep
everything from torquing when pressure is applied.
On 4/6/2013 4:32 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:RKednaUG17ajHP3MnZ2dnUVZ5o-
> [email protected]:
>
>> The tail vice is going to have an advantage when hand planing narrow
>> stock, like a table leg. The bench would support all of the stock and
>> not let it bow or bend from the pressure of the plane.
>
> I'd get the same benefit from a planing stop at the other end of the bench, though, wouldn't I?
> Still not seeing the need for the tail vise. And still thinking I must be missing something,
> because it's so common I figure there must be a reason...
>>
>> That said, this is a great place to visit and get ideas and premium
>> parts for your bench should you decide to go with top end stuff.
>>
>>
>> http://benchcrafted.com/TailVise.html
>
> What they call a tail vise there is actually a wagon vise...
>>
>> The videos are worth a look too if you have not been here.
>
> Interesting vids, though. Thanks for the link. That leg vise looks like just the ticket for the
> face.
>
Why a 16" face?
Not sure how wide your vise is, but I think a 16" face might be a little
much for a tail vise. Why?
Because a tail vise you will put the dog in near the edge of your bench.
So assuming you're not using the dog on the vice you will need to mount
it off center, and with a 16" block that give you a lot of leverage to
twist your vise and ruin it.
You can get by with a slight off center dog (I have one in my block
mounted to my metal vise similar to yours) but it is maybe 1 " off
center from the vise so I could get it closer to the edge.
If I mis understood the question sorry.
--
Jeff
On 4/7/2013 10:24 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Why a 16" face?
>> Not sure how wide your vise is, but I think a 16" face might be a little
>> much for a tail vise. Why?
>
> Increase its clamping capacity.
>
>> Because a tail vise you will put the dog in near the edge of your bench.
>
> Right.
>
>> So assuming you're not using the dog on the vice you will need to mount
>> it off center, and with a 16" block that give you a lot of leverage to
>> twist your vise and ruin it.
>
> Planning to use spacers as needed to keep the vise from twisting. I have to do that now
> anyway because my current bench has a cheap vise that twists if you look at it funny, so I'm
> used to it.
>>
>> You can get by with a slight off center dog (I have one in my block
>> mounted to my metal vise similar to yours) but it is maybe 1 " off
>> center from the vise so I could get it closer to the edge.
>>
>> If I mis understood the question sorry.
>
> I think you did, but I appreciate your comments anyway. Your points are certainly valid, but I
> think I've already taken those concerns into account as I described -- if you disagree, I'd
> certainly like to hear your reasons.
>
> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vises like this one?
> http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>
That's because it is a wood tail vise for square dogs.
The traditional wood screw or metal in this case is off to the side
where it can properly work for this design.
it would not work if it were lined up with the dogs.
This keeps the dogs to the edge, but allows the screw to have some beefy
wood to support it's action. Remeber this does double duty as a vise for
dogs and a vise for clamping perpendicular.
The wood needed on the end if it were not L would be very large, and
limiting.
--
Jeff
Remember you have PSI - or pounds per square inch.
The wide face provides low PSI and as you try to add more
you run the risk of breaking the screw.
I thought the table length vises were double screws.
Martin
On 4/7/2013 9:24 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Why a 16" face?
>> Not sure how wide your vise is, but I think a 16" face might be a little
>> much for a tail vise. Why?
>
> Increase its clamping capacity.
>
>> Because a tail vise you will put the dog in near the edge of your bench.
>
> Right.
>
>> So assuming you're not using the dog on the vice you will need to mount
>> it off center, and with a 16" block that give you a lot of leverage to
>> twist your vise and ruin it.
>
> Planning to use spacers as needed to keep the vise from twisting. I have to do that now
> anyway because my current bench has a cheap vise that twists if you look at it funny, so I'm
> used to it.
>>
>> You can get by with a slight off center dog (I have one in my block
>> mounted to my metal vise similar to yours) but it is maybe 1 " off
>> center from the vise so I could get it closer to the edge.
>>
>> If I mis understood the question sorry.
>
> I think you did, but I appreciate your comments anyway. Your points are certainly valid, but I
> think I've already taken those concerns into account as I described -- if you disagree, I'd
> certainly like to hear your reasons.
>
> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vises like this one?
> http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>
On 4/6/2013 1:38 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> As I find myself doing more work with hand tools, and working on larger projectt, I find I've
> outgrown my workbench, and it's time to make -- not buy -- one better suited to my needs.
>
> I think I've pretty much decided to use a leg vise in the face-vise position, combined with a
> sliding deadman along the front face. This should give me adequate support, I think, for
> working long boards on their edges, and for cutting dovetails in drawer sides, and so on.
>
> But I'm still wondering what to use as an end vise. I see *lots* of benches with an L-shaped
> tail vise at the end. And I must confess I'm mystified. What benefit do you get from a tail vise
> that you can't get from some other, simpler, less-expensive configurarion?
>
> In particular, I have a Wilton vise similar to this one
> http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af239/whtsup/4264582093.jpg
> that I bought at an auction a while back for ten bucks or so, and I'm thinking about mounting
> a wooden face about 16" wide on it, and using that for my end vise.
>
> Questions:
> What (if anything) is wrong with that plan?
> What might I be overlooking?
> What advantages (if any) might a tail vise have over that?
>
The tail vice is going to have an advantage when hand planing narrow
stock, like a table leg. The bench would support all of the stock and
not let it bow or bend from the pressure of the plane.
That said, this is a great place to visit and get ideas and premium
parts for your bench should you decide to go with top end stuff.
http://benchcrafted.com/TailVise.html
The videos are worth a look too if you have not been here.
http://benchcrafted.com/TailVise.html
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in news:RKednaUG17ajHP3MnZ2dnUVZ5o-
[email protected]:
> The tail vice is going to have an advantage when hand planing narrow
> stock, like a table leg. The bench would support all of the stock and
> not let it bow or bend from the pressure of the plane.
I'd get the same benefit from a planing stop at the other end of the bench, though, wouldn't I?
Still not seeing the need for the tail vise. And still thinking I must be missing something,
because it's so common I figure there must be a reason...
>
> That said, this is a great place to visit and get ideas and premium
> parts for your bench should you decide to go with top end stuff.
>
>
> http://benchcrafted.com/TailVise.html
What they call a tail vise there is actually a wagon vise...
>
> The videos are worth a look too if you have not been here.
Interesting vids, though. Thanks for the link. That leg vise looks like just the ticket for the
face.
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Why a 16" face?
> Not sure how wide your vise is, but I think a 16" face might be a little
> much for a tail vise. Why?
Increase its clamping capacity.
> Because a tail vise you will put the dog in near the edge of your bench.
Right.
> So assuming you're not using the dog on the vice you will need to mount
> it off center, and with a 16" block that give you a lot of leverage to
> twist your vise and ruin it.
Planning to use spacers as needed to keep the vise from twisting. I have to do that now
anyway because my current bench has a cheap vise that twists if you look at it funny, so I'm
used to it.
>
> You can get by with a slight off center dog (I have one in my block
> mounted to my metal vise similar to yours) but it is maybe 1 " off
> center from the vise so I could get it closer to the edge.
>
> If I mis understood the question sorry.
I think you did, but I appreciate your comments anyway. Your points are certainly valid, but I
think I've already taken those concerns into account as I described -- if you disagree, I'd
certainly like to hear your reasons.
The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vises like this one?
http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 4/7/2013 9:24 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vises like this one?
>> http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>>
>
> Ohhhh, that is a good question... Looking at it, the wood is totally
> different from the rest of the bench so perhaps it was moved from
> another bench to this one and this is how it came out to fit.
>
> I don't recall having ever seen this "L" shape at all in the past, have
> you seen others examples?
There are examples everywhere, this is just one of many
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2081005/30367/pinnacle-large-traditional-
cabinetmakers-workbench.aspx
For that matter, what's the purpose of this type of vise?
http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.html
I just don't see the benefit.
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:5161affa$0$13585$c3e8da3
[email protected]:
> This has some ideas:
> http://carlswoodworking.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/tail-vise-options/
>
> and this:
> http://workbenchdesign.net/
Ideas, yes, but not explanations. I'm still trying to figure out what advantage(s), if any, an end
vise like this
http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail03.jpg?w=300&h=235
or this
http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.jpg
might have over one like this
http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail09.jpg?w=530
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 04/07/2013 11:47 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:5161affa$0$13585$c3e8da3 [email protected]:
>>
>>> This has some ideas:
>>> http://carlswoodworking.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/tail-vise-opti
>>> ons/
>>>
>>> and this:
>>> http://workbenchdesign.net/
>>
>> Ideas, yes, but not explanations. I'm still trying to figure
>> out what advantage(s), if any, an end vise like this
>>
>> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail03.jpg?w
>> =300&h=235
>>
>> or this
>>
>> http://www.inkbox.net/wood/bench/tailvise.jpg
>>
>> might have over one like this
>>
>> http://carlswoodworking.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/tail09.jpg?w
>> =530
>>
> The one comment on the L vise was that it tended to sag.
Yep. I've seen that comment in a number of places. And they're
harder to build.
So why are they on so many benches? Still trying to figure out how
that's any improvement over simply mounting a normal Record or
Wilton vise at the end of the bench...
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:5161d510$0$38932$c3e8da3
[email protected]:
> Here's one guys argument for the traditional tail vise:
>
> <http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/180/The%20Argument%20for%20a%
20Traditional%20Tail%20Vise>
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bqexwco
>
I've read that article several times, and I'm still unconvinced. He writes:
"The main reason why a traditional tail vise is so darn useful is because of the unobstructed
gap you get in the front of your bench. this gives you the perfect way to solidly clamp chair
legs, or any long part that needs to be held while you work on it from one end. You also
have space on both sides of the work for tools."
But a leg vise accomplishes essentially the same thing, without the difficulties of installation.
And it won't ever sag.
He also says:
"the tail vise also has dog holes so I can easily clamp boards ... longer than my bench,"
Not very much longer, he can't.
"and have them supported all along the underside, except for a small gap. With a end
mounted face vise you just don't get that kind of support. "
This is simply nonsense. An end mounted face vise is also capable of clamping boards
longer than the bench and having them supported over nearly their entire length --
regardless of the type of vise, it's the *bench* that supports the board, not the vise, over
most of its length. Is six inches unsupported, vs. maybe an inch and a half, really *that*
important on a board six or seven feet long? I don't buy it.
"Another use for a tail vise is something I saw recently and adopted immediately. In Tage
Frid's video he saws his blind dovetail tails by holding them diagonally in the tail vise. I tried
this and it means I don't have to crouch and saw up, and I can see both the inside face and
the end grain as I am sawing."
You can do the same thing with a leg vise, or a shoulder vise. Still not seeing the
advantages.
woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in news:2LOdnTdTn8-
[email protected]:
> On 4/7/2013 3:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> So why are they on so many benches? Still trying to figure out how
>> that's any improvement over simply mounting a normal Record or
>> Wilton vise at the end of the bench...
>>
> Because they offer a lot of benefits too. The sagging can be fixed.
> Usually the support pieces underneath need redoing.
But what *are* the benefits? What can I do with that type of vise that I can't do, or can't do as
easily, with a leg vise or an end-mounted face vise?
Martin Eastburn <[email protected]> wrote in news:P%q8t.88254$97.25621@en-nntp-
16.dc1.easynews.com:
> Remember you have PSI - or pounds per square inch.
> The wide face provides low PSI and as you try to add more
> you run the risk of breaking the screw.
Well, yes, but... first, high clamping pressures aren't normally needed when holding boards for
woodworking with either hand or power tools, and second, I'm not really all that worried about
breaking a 1" diameter steel screw. I'm pretty sure the vise's mounting bolts would rip out of
the benchtop first.
On 4/7/2013 5:02 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in news:2LOdnTdTn8-
> [email protected]:
>
>> On 4/7/2013 3:26 PM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> So why are they on so many benches? Still trying to figure out how
>>> that's any improvement over simply mounting a normal Record or
>>> Wilton vise at the end of the bench...
>>>
>> Because they offer a lot of benefits too. The sagging can be fixed.
>> Usually the support pieces underneath need redoing.
>
> But what *are* the benefits? What can I do with that type of vise that I can't do, or can't do as
> easily, with a leg vise or an end-mounted face vise?
>
One of the benefits is having support on both sides of the jaws with the
traditional.
When using a standard vise, like on mine, I only get 3 inches of support
over the vise. (The depth of my pad on my vises face)
There are a few others I am sure.But of course you are right most can be
done with a metal vise. I would like to have a traditional over the
metal vise I have. But I compromised.
--
Jeff
On 4/7/2013 3:36 PM, Denis G. wrote:
> On Apr 7, 9:24 am, Doug Miller <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote innews:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Why a 16" face?
>>> Not sure how wide your vise is, but I think a 16" face might be a little
>>> much for a tail vise. Why?
>>
>> Increase its clamping capacity.
>>
>>> Because a tail vise you will put the dog in near the edge of your bench.
>>
>> Right.
>>
>>> So assuming you're not using the dog on the vice you will need to mount
>>> it off center, and with a 16" block that give you a lot of leverage to
>>> twist your vise and ruin it.
>>
>> Planning to use spacers as needed to keep the vise from twisting. I have to do that now
>> anyway because my current bench has a cheap vise that twists if you look at it funny, so I'm
>> used to it.
>>
>>
>>
>>> You can get by with a slight off center dog (I have one in my block
>>> mounted to my metal vise similar to yours) but it is maybe 1 " off
>>> center from the vise so I could get it closer to the edge.
>>
>>> If I mis understood the question sorry.
>>
>> I think you did, but I appreciate your comments anyway. Your points are certainly valid, but I
>> think I've already taken those concerns into account as I described -- if you disagree, I'd
>> certainly like to hear your reasons.
>>
>> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vises like this one?http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>
> Not sure how the vise in your picture is built, but this link shows
> more detail of the construction of a traditional tail vise and the
> reason for the "L":
> http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/262/title/The%20Traditional%20Tail%20Vise%20-%20Followup
>
I thought there might be a guide on that end.
On 4/7/2013 9:24 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Why a 16" face?
>> Not sure how wide your vise is, but I think a 16" face might be a little
>> much for a tail vise. Why?
>
> Increase its clamping capacity.
>
>> Because a tail vise you will put the dog in near the edge of your bench.
>
> Right.
>
>> So assuming you're not using the dog on the vice you will need to mount
>> it off center, and with a 16" block that give you a lot of leverage to
>> twist your vise and ruin it.
>
> Planning to use spacers as needed to keep the vise from twisting. I have to do that now
> anyway because my current bench has a cheap vise that twists if you look at it funny, so I'm
> used to it.
>>
>> You can get by with a slight off center dog (I have one in my block
>> mounted to my metal vise similar to yours) but it is maybe 1 " off
>> center from the vise so I could get it closer to the edge.
>>
>> If I mis understood the question sorry.
>
> I think you did, but I appreciate your comments anyway. Your points are certainly valid, but I
> think I've already taken those concerns into account as I described -- if you disagree, I'd
> certainly like to hear your reasons.
>
> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vises like this one?
> http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>
Ohhhh, that is a good question... Looking at it, the wood is totally
different from the rest of the bench so perhaps it was moved from
another bench to this one and this is how it came out to fit.
I don't recall having ever seen this "L" shape at all in the past, have
you seen others examples?
On Apr 7, 6:09=A0pm, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> On 4/7/2013 3:36 PM, Denis G. wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 7, 9:24 am, Doug Miller <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote innews:MNadnYHTI99rRP3MnZ2dnUVZ_=
[email protected]:
>
> >>> Why a 16" face?
> >>> Not sure how wide your vise is, but I think a 16" face might be a lit=
tle
> >>> much for a tail vise. Why?
>
> >> Increase its clamping capacity.
>
> >>> Because a tail vise you will put the dog in near the edge of your ben=
ch.
>
> >> Right.
>
> >>> So assuming you're not using the dog on the vice you will need to mou=
nt
> >>> it off center, and with a 16" block that give you a lot of leverage t=
o
> >>> twist your vise and ruin it.
>
> >> Planning to use spacers as needed to keep the vise from twisting. I ha=
ve to do that now
> >> anyway because my current bench has a cheap vise that twists if you lo=
ok at it funny, so I'm
> >> used to it.
>
> >>> You can get by with a slight off center dog (I have one in my block
> >>> mounted to my metal vise similar to yours) but it is maybe 1 " off
> >>> center from the vise so I could get it closer to the edge.
>
> >>> If I mis understood the question sorry.
>
> >> I think you did, but I appreciate your comments anyway. Your points ar=
e certainly valid, but I
> >> think I've already taken those concerns into account as I described --=
if you disagree, I'd
> >> certainly like to hear your reasons.
>
> >> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vi=
ses like this one?http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
>
> > Not sure how the vise in your picture is built, but this link shows
> > more detail of the construction of a traditional tail vise and the
> > reason for the "L":
> >http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/262/title/The%20Traditi...
>
> I thought there might be a guide on that end.
Scott Landis' book (The Workbench Book) in Chap. 4 also has the
details from when he visits Frank Klausz's workshop.
On Sunday, April 7, 2013 10:46:21 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> Ohhhh, that is a good question... Looking at it, the wood is totally dif=
ferent from the rest of the bench so perhaps it was moved from another benc=
h to this one and this is how it came out to fit. I don't recall having eve=
r seen this "L" shape at all in the past, have you seen others examples?
Or the user needed a specific vise design, for some repeatable process, mor=
e so for his specific needs, and this is what works for him. =20
As Bill noted, it has an additional asthetic appeal, lending itself to poss=
ibly profiting from the design. The aesthetic appeal kind of reminds me of=
the oak loveseat rocker I made, with the slanted arms. The arms may look =
impressive, but their function is limited and lacking, at times.
Sonny
On Apr 7, 9:24=A0am, Doug Miller <[email protected]>
wrote:
> woodchucker <[email protected]> wrote innews:MNadnYHTI99rRP3MnZ2dnUVZ_gqd=
[email protected]:
>
> > Why a 16" face?
> > Not sure how wide your vise is, but I think a 16" face might be a littl=
e
> > much for a tail vise. Why?
>
> Increase its clamping capacity.
>
> > Because a tail vise you will put the dog in near the edge of your bench=
.
>
> Right.
>
> > So assuming you're not using the dog on the vice you will need to mount
> > it off center, and with a 16" block that give you a lot of leverage to
> > twist your vise and ruin it.
>
> Planning to use spacers as needed to keep the vise from twisting. I have =
to do that now
> anyway because my current bench has a cheap vise that twists if you look =
at it funny, so I'm
> used to it.
>
>
>
> > You can get by with a slight off center dog (I have one in my block
> > mounted to my metal vise similar to yours) but it is maybe 1 " off
> > center from the vise so I could get it closer to the edge.
>
> > If I mis understood the question sorry.
>
> I think you did, but I appreciate your comments anyway. Your points are c=
ertainly valid, but I
> think I've already taken those concerns into account as I described -- if=
you disagree, I'd
> certainly like to hear your reasons.
>
> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail vises=
like this one?http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
Not sure how the vise in your picture is built, but this link shows
more detail of the construction of a traditional tail vise and the
reason for the "L":
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/262/title/The%20Traditional%2=
0Tail%20Vise%20-%20Followup
On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 18:38:42 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
>In particular, I have a Wilton vise similar to this one
>http://i1011.photobucket.com/albums/af239/whtsup/4264582093.jpg
>that I bought at an auction a while back for ten bucks or so, and I'm thinking about mounting
>a wooden face about 16" wide on it, and using that for my end vise.
No reason why you can't use the Wilton. You already have it and
there's no addition funds (or very little) needed to use it. The main
consideration is will you be satisfied with it?
I grew up using the two metal vises on my father's work bench. And
that's what I'm comfortable using now. I think many people see the
occasional professional using mostly wooden vises and think that's
what they should have. It's just preference and nothing else.
Doug Miller wrote:
> The main thing I'm wondering is what's the purpose of L-shaped tail
> vises like this one? http://www.workbenchdesign.net/images/klbench1.jpg
I think it allows easier access to "both sides" of the fore-mentioned
table leg. It's also a thing of beauty, no? : )
It reminds me of the craftsmen who desired to exhibit their expertise
via their tool chests.
Surely such detail is not superfuous if it helps put food on the table,
or for a number of other good reasons!
Bill