Circular saw won't ground, safe?

"Don Kelly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ahShe.1363374$6l.943940@pd7tw2no...
>
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > > don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
> 90-100
>> > > milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
>> > >
>> > You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is
> difficult
>> > to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
>> > Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will
> change
>> > everything!
>>
>> Where do you get this ? You state this stuff as fact? Do you have ANY
>> idea how irresponsible you are?
>>
>> Shame on you!
> -------
> Actually, such information is available many places, including the EPRI
> book
> on EHV power lines. The 100ma level is about the 0.5% probability level
> for
> fibrillation. However, fibrillation is time dependent so that on prolonged
> contact, the level drops (i.e. at a let-go current of 9-10ma it takes
> about
> 10 minutes to cause fibrillation). In many cases, design is based on a
> 5ma
> level which is considered at or below the let-go level (not painless)
> for
> both adults and children.

For what contact time is that 0.5% figure for 100a? Or is it just an
average figure for all contacts?

It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but
even with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure
grounds to keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and
only run your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites
I've been on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from
workmen bypassing them.
Richard

I think the OP was trolling, judging by his lack of response. It looks
like he hauled in a whole netfull.

Bob

<[email protected]> wrote in message

> ...judging by his lack of response.

I haven't found the time to work on the cord. I will now.

Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
and saws get away without a ground plug?

(Here's an ignorant question) Is it true that I can receive a fatal shock if
I touch my skin from either neutral or hot and then ground? If so, then why
not replace the ground with a safer model which doesn't allow a shock?

Lastly, a hot or neutral short to ground shuts down my entire electrical
system. Is this the GFCI?

Thanks

I always double and triple check everything including a final check
with a non contact voltage tester. I've seen so many wierd things
working on clients electrical setups. You know the "What in the
F=2E....." moment and its another one for the books.
This sounds like a pertinent case:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/face/stateface/wi/93wi214.html
"A 45-year-old male electrician (the victim) was electrocuted when he
contacted an energized =BD-inch metal-cased electric drill.... There were
puddles of water on the cement floor of the work site. The drill was
connected to a temporary power pole by a series of three extension
cords, two of which were missing the ground pin.... The cords were
plugged into a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) receptacle
mounted on the power pole. ... However, testing after the incident
disclosed the GFCI was inoperative, and the fuse box for the 120 volt
single phase 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets located at the power
pole contained two 40-ampere fuses."

Richard

For info on how a GFCI works check Sam's , very complete:

http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm

> please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
>and saws get away without a ground plug?

As above double insulated and more over usually GFCI protected.

> a hot or neutral short to ground shuts down my entire electrical
>system. Is this the GFCI?

Hot to ground short - how big is the spark? 15-20 Amps? Breaker. No
spark? - Possibly a GFCI
Neutral to ground short - Possibly a GFCI or total miswire
And if this is the case can't you ID the GFCI?

Incidently any electrician knows that you can be shocked from a neutral
line, especially if you're dissasembling a junction of several neutrals
even with the power turned off to the box you're in. One or more of the
neutrals can be tied back to another hot or often the other leg through
an appliance. Can be a nasty suprise if someone turns on the toaster
while you're working on a neutral. There could also be a break in the
neutral.
I recently rewired a garage where the BX was run along the ground
right under the threshold of the door. Salt corrosion rotted the
neutral wire out as well as the BX shield. Whoever did this job also
tied the neutral to conduit ground so the path was hot to device
neutral to box ground to earth through the remenents of the BX. Their
son got a nasty shock walking into the garage barefoot on a rainy night
and turning on the light!

Richard

In article <1116192152.ce14365b22134300926898074b7384d5@bubbanews>,
Tim Zimmer <[email protected]> wrote:
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> ...judging by his lack of response.
>
>I haven't found the time to work on the cord. I will now.
>
>Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
>and saws get away without a ground plug?

Older style equipment has only one layer of insulation. A *single* failure
exposes the operator to electrical shock, unless the equipment is properly
grounded. With the grounding, it requires _two_ failures for possible
shock.

Newer gear is constructed in a style called "double insulated". It takes
_two_ separate "safety equipment" failures for the operator to be exposed
to a possible electrical shock.

By the nature of the 'double insulated" design, a failure of the second
insulation is much *less* likely than a failure of the 'grounding' system
in older equipment.

Hence safety is provided for in a "more reliable" manner. and the 'ground'
plug is not needed -- it doesn't provide any 'additional' protection.

>
>(Here's an ignorant question) Is it true that I can receive a fatal shock if
>I touch my skin from either neutral or hot and then ground?

Short answer: "Yes, you _can_ receive a fatal shock that way." This is not
to say that it _will_ be fatal in every instance. (see the 'long answer',
below, for all the gory details.)

Long answer (bear with me, it _does_ take a *long* discussion to cover all
the relevant matters) follows --

That's a *complicated* question. First off, what constitutes a "fatal"
shock depends on a _lot_ of things. The absolute minimal considerations
are 'how much _current_', and '*where* on the body'. applied directly
to heart muscle, a handful of milli-amps, which requires only a few volts,
is sufficient to cause 'catastrophic' problems.

Applied to the skin, away from the heart, what constitutes a 'dangerous'
level requires higher levels.

"How much" higher depends on a lot of things. The 'resistance' of skin,
etc. depends on a whole sh*tload of factors., but the biggest one is
how _dry_ the skin is, where contact is made. On a living being, "dry on
the surface" skin has a resistance of several thousand ohms. When skin is
damp -- sweaty, for one example -- the resistance decreases radically.
Can be as low as a few hundred ohms. _Below_ the surface of the body,
resistances are quite low. *especially* so for 'nerve fiber', which
runs *everywhere*.

Now, we have to take a digression into 'how electricity works'.
(note to purists: this description *is* somewhat simplified)

When you have two things "in parallel" connected to a source of electrical
power, There is always a flow of electric current through *both* of those
things. "How much" current flows through each thing is determined by the
resistance of that thing.

Note: 'in theory', "ground" is "ground", and is always at exactly the same
potential, regardless of location. In practice, it doesn't work that way.
"Ground" is a moderately lousy conductor, and you may get different levels
at different places.

In addition, the 'ground' and/or 'neutral' wires are *not* "perfect"
conductors. They are real-world devices, and have 'internal' resistance.
Depending on the size of the wire, and the length back to the transmission
point, this resistance can be significant. Any piece of wire, when you
connect to it at a point along its length, can be regarded as two resistors,
one representing the internal resistance from the beginning to where you
connect to it; the other from that connection-point to the other end of the
wire.

This means, among other things, that the 'neutral' wire _at_a_point_distant_
_from_the_power_source_, is *not* at the same 'ground' level as 'ground' at
the transmission point.

If you connect your body across the 'hot' wire, to ground (either 'earth
ground', or the 'ground' wire), you are placing yourself "in parallel"
with any other 'devices' (or 'loads') on that power feed. As those devices
have relatively high resistances (relative to 'just plain wire'), there
will be a considerable flow of current through your body.

If you connect your body across the 'neutral' wire, to ground (either 'earth
ground', or the 'ground' wire), you are placing yourself "in parallel" with
only the resistance of the 'return' part of that wire. This resistance is
comparatively _low_, and the current flow will be comparatively small.

From all this, it should be obvious that there is no simple nor easy means
of predicting "just how much" current _might_ flow through your body if you
get across the wires.

One more consideration to throw into the pot. There is no 'guarantee'
that the 'hot' and 'neutral' wires are _properly_ connected/identified.

What one _thinks_ is th 'neutral', may, in actuality, be the 'hot'.
It's not likely, but do you want to "bet your life" (literally!) on it?

The only "safe" way to work on electrical wiring is to:
0) assume that unprotected contact with the wiring *will* kill you.
(even if not _always_ true, you only get to be wrong ONCE )
1) disconnect it from the power supply
2) ensure that *nobody* can re-connect it without your OK.
(this is what "lock-outs" are for.)
3) test _after_ disconnecting to make sure there is no power present.
4) work on it *as*if* power was still present. (see rule #0)
(i.e. rubber gloves, insulated tools, only one wire at a time, etc.)

While that may _look_ excessively paranoid, it isn't.

Items 1,2,3 'appear' to describe a 'fool poof' system for ensuring safety.
Unfortunately,
"For every fool-proof system, there exists a *sufficiently*determined*
fool capable of breaking it."
applies.

that's why 4 *is* necessary.

> If so, then why
>not replace the ground with a safer model which doesn't allow a shock?

That's what modern "double insulated" tool design _does_.

That is *why* most tools are built that way today. <grin>

As for "doesn't allow a shock", well, the laws of physics are not subject
to repeal by the acts of man. ANY place there is a difference in electric
potential, there is the 'potential' for an electric shock. (Pun intended!)

The most one can do is engineer things so that getting a shock is "difficult".

>Lastly, a hot or neutral short to ground shuts down my entire electrical
>system. Is this the GFCI?

Probably. :)

GFCI detects _unbalanced_ current flow in the hot vs neutral wires.
This happens *only*if* there is 'some other path' for current to flow
through.

In the case of a 'hot to ground' short, assuming it is a true short (as
in approximately zero resistance), it will be a bit of a race between
the overload circuit breaker, and the GFCI, to see which trips first.

In the case of a 'neutral to ground' short, you do not have an 'overload'
condition, so the GFCI is the one shutting things down.

In article <[email protected]>, toller <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Benton has a chunk of the information in that 120VAC is _DANGEROUS_!!
>> ...and yes at these voltages and frequencies (60Hz) 100mA is almost
>> assuredly deadly. However, under not that unusual conditions fatalities
>> can occur with 120VAC at currents under even 10mA! ..no you don't need to
>> be taking a salt-water bath as there are numerous other items that will
>> drop the skin resistance to permit these fatal current flows including
>> excessive sweating and even more so a break/burn in the skin.
>>
>
>Yes, excessive sweating and a break in the skin can allow higher than normal
>CURRENTS for a given VOLTAGE by lowering the skin RESISTANCE. (though they
>are unlikely to lower the resistance of your shoes to make you grounded, and
>without a ground connection, it doesn't matter how low your skin resistance
>is.)
>But they will not make 10ma anymore harmful. Exactly what "not that
>unusual conditions" will 10ma cause fatalities? Being tied up with the
>wires?

Just, for starters, EIGHT to TEN milliamps at the skin surface is sufficient
to cause seizure of the muscles, If you are grasping the live contact, you
*will*not* be able to let go of it.

That same ten milli-amps or so, _while_you_remain_in_contact_with_it_,
has all sorts of 'interesting" secondary effects. Affected musculature
is spasming -- which differs from *very* heavy exercise only in that the
muscles do not get the chance relax completely between contractions.
The body reacts to this by increasing the blood-flow to the area; by
secreting moisture to the surface of the skin, for evaporative cooling;
by migration of intra-cellular fluids into the area to provide more 'food'
for the muscle cells, etc. ALL of those things have an effect on the
resistance to the electrical current. They all _decrease_ it. Thus,
the current flow *CLIMBS*.

In addition, as the internal "chemistry" shifts around, the -path- of the
current flow changes. All skin/muscles/etc, are _not_ created equal.
Some conduct electricity better than others. "nerve cells" are especially
good conductors. As the conductivity of the body parts increases -- for
the reasons discussed in the previous paragraph -- current flow also tends
to become more 'localized'; rather than a low current flow across a wide
cross-section, you get high current in relatively small areas, and very
little current in adjacent areas. Note well that the conductivity of
those 'adjacent areas' has *NOT* decreased. The 'localization' happens
because the conductivity of those 'local' areas is *much* better.
Oddly enough, this results in increased current flow over-all, as well
as radically higher current 'density' in those 'better path' routes.


Also, effects on muscle tissue (*and* nerve fiber) depend not only on the
current flow, but *HOW*LONG* the current flows. Once you get above a very
low threshold (sub-milli-amp), degree of "injury" does increase with
continued exposure. And, of course, the higher the current flow, the
faster the 'damage' accumulates.

"Given time" 10-15 ma, *or*less*, CAN kill you. Disruption of autonomic
nervous system functions -- including heart-beat -- "slow cooking" of
nervous pathways, etc.

Remember, even at that level, if muscles spasm so that you are in contact
with the live wire, you will *NOT* get free _by_yourself_. Thus, in a
very real sense, "how quickly" things happen is not an issue. :)

In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
>> milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
>>
>You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult
>to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.

Guess again, bozo.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>Andy Dingley wrote:
>
>.....snip...
>> cable and to carry on using it is just pikey.
>>
>
>?? What is the definition here? 'pikey' - don't recognize it as a
>Canajun term.
>
My first guess would be "of, or characterizing, a piker" (i.e. cheapskate).
>Ed

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, Lee DeRaud <[email protected]> wrote:

>Don't forget the scene in LS&TSB where they have English subtitles for
>the black nightclub owner...who's speaking English.

It's been done before - remember 'Airplane'? Cracked me up when the guy says
"shiiiiiiit" and the subtitle shows "golly!"

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>You cannot get a shock from a neutral unless it is open. A closed neutral
>(which it would be, unless it were broken) is such a good conductor that
>virtually no current would go through you. Until a few years ago dryers and
>stoves had the frames connected to the neutral. They are perfectly safe
>unless the neutral is broken, and then you may be the best path to ground.

Completely false. You *can* get a shock from a neutral that is not open, if
you provide a good enough alternate, parallel path to ground. And dryers and
stoves with the frames connected to neutral are *not* safe - that's why the
NEC now prohibits that on new installations.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:59Khe.270$%[email protected]...
>
> A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
> contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
"the
> other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive and
> unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
> impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.
> Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from 4000v or higher.
>
> Accordingly, I am wondering about those fatal accidents you have studied.
> If my understanding is incorrect, I certainly want to get it adjusted.
(no,
> I do not treat 120v casually; "almost impossible" means it is possible...)
>
>

Your heart operates on considerably less potential. You're betting that the
jolt won't find the proper pathway to interfere or stop it? Foolish wager.

Two in my experience on 120 Volts, but that's 50% of electrocution
fatalities I've had.

I've been an electrician for over 30 years and I can tell you it is
possible to get killed on 120V, but it is generally considered to be the
current that kills. As little as 100mA will cause the heart to
fibrillate regardless of voltage. It depends on the victims age,
thickness of skin (callouses insulate somewhat), how dry the skin is and
where the contact points are on the body. One older fellow I worked
with would routinely put his finger in light sockets to check for
voltage. His skin was old, dry and calloused and the current only
passed through his finger. Another who worked a circuit hot by lying on
a piece of insulating cardboard under a house died because his sweaty
neck touched a cold water pipe. Damp, thin skin, current through the
brain. Not a good combination.
GFI protection is a good thing and cheap insurance.

Old Sparky

toller wrote:
> "spudnuty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but
>>even with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure
>>grounds to keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and
>>only run your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites
>>I've been on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from
>>workmen bypassing them.
>>Richard
>>
>
>
> A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
> contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought "the
> other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive and
> unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
> impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.
> Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from 4000v or higher.
>
> Accordingly, I am wondering about those fatal accidents you have studied.
> If my understanding is incorrect, I certainly want to get it adjusted. (no,
> I do not treat 120v casually; "almost impossible" means it is possible...)
>
>

Rich Grise wrote:
...
> When I was an electronics tech in the US Air Force, ...
> We also were required to take off all rings and watches, and it
> was strongly recommended to put one hand in your pocket.
>
> There was also the UL about the guy who ohmed out the igniter on
> an AIM-7 or AIM-9 missile, and the fins cut off both of his hands.

Did he then keep one of them in his pocket?

Doug Miller wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
> >Rich Grise wrote:
> >....
> >> When I was an electronics tech in the US Air Force, ...
> >> We also were required to take off all rings and watches, and it
> >> was strongly recommended to put one hand in your pocket.
> >>
> >> There was also the UL about the guy who ohmed out the igniter on
> >> an AIM-7 or AIM-9 missile, and the fins cut off both of his hands.
> >
> >Did he then keep one of them in his pocket?
>
> DUH! *Both* of them!

But that would have been against the reg's... :)

Don Klipstein wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, Don Bruder wrote:
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
> >> and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.
> >
> >Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
> >slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
> >proven otherwise."
> >
> >If there's even the slightest doubt that a pair of wires might be hot,
> >then *THEY ARE* until proven otherwise.
> >
> >Any other assumption in either case is stupidity on a scale you only
> >read newspaper articles about. Usually articles ending "Services will be
> >provided by <insert name> funeral home."
>
> I have been told there are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many who
> were both. My father said the same thing about electricians.
>
> - Don Klipstein ([email protected])

No, but I've met a few who were "Moldy oldie electricians". ;-)
--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Rich Grise wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote:
>
>
>>"Rich Grise" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're
>>>working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V
>>>filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the
>>>4KV plate supply.
>>>
>>>"Which one killed you?"
>>
>>If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~)
>>
>>If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a
>>different body?
>>
>
>
> I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-)
>
> Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while
> simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your
> eyes.
>
> Where is your finger pointing?

At my face.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

Robatoy wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Rich Grise <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Rich Grise" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're
>>>>working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V
>>>>filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the
>>>>4KV plate supply.
>>>>
>>>>"Which one killed you?"
>>>
>>>If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~)
>>>
>>>If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a
>>>different body?
>>>
>>
>>I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-)
>>
>>Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while
>>simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your
>>eyes.
>>
>>Where is your finger pointing?
>>
>>Cheers!
>>Rich
>
>
> Why...in my nose, of course!

Well, I wasn't going to say it was THAT close to my face :)

--
Odinn
RCOS #7

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

On Sun, 15 May 2005 17:08:51 GMT in sci.electronics.basics, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote,
>After a delivery truck hit a power pole and knocked down some power lines I
>questioned the gentleman managing and keeping an eye on the crew repairing
>the power lines. He indicated that 220 is more likely to get you as it
>tends to hold on to you. The much higher voltage lines will more likely
>throw you away.

The dorm cafeteria where I went to college had toasters that ran on
220V. I really used to cringe when I saw people stick forks into them
to retrieve stuck pieces of toast. I guess that is routine in the UK
though.

In article <[email protected]>, Rich Grise <[email protected]> wrote:

>I read something in one of those "home handyman" articles about when
>you're working on the wiring in, say, a bedroom, but the breaker
>panel is in the basement, and not labeled well. You get a line-
>operated radio, and plug it in in the room you want to deenergize,
>and turn it up loud enough so you can hear it from the basement.
>Switch off the breakers one at a time, and when you've got the
>right one, the radio will quit. If any given breaker doesn't turn
>off the radio, you can turn it back on so you can still see your
>way up the stairs, of course. :-)

Yes, that works -- but one of these is a *lot* easier:
http://www.lowes.
com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=12334-1781-GET-1200

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"spudnuty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but
> even with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure
> grounds to keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and
> only run your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites
> I've been on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from
> workmen bypassing them.
> Richard
>

A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought "the
other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive and
unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.
Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from 4000v or higher.

Accordingly, I am wondering about those fatal accidents you have studied.
If my understanding is incorrect, I certainly want to get it adjusted. (no,
I do not treat 120v casually; "almost impossible" means it is possible...)

"Tim Zimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1116159867.dda65d992f7a2135aa9763b69aaf9081@bubbanews...
> Is it safe to operate an all alloy housing circular saw. My
> 15-year old industrial saw is reliable but the only thing aging
> is the cord. The cord's insulation is cracking and deteriorating.
> Last I'd check the ground wire is open but hidden from view.
> What would be the hazards if I continue to use it?
>
> Thanks

Only death.

Open the case and replace the entire cord. Then you can use it for another
15 years.

benton wrote:
> I've been an electrician for over 30 years and I can tell you it is
> possible to get killed on 120V, but it is generally considered to be the
> current that kills. As little as 100mA will cause the heart to
> fibrillate regardless of voltage. It depends on the victims age,
> thickness of skin (callouses insulate somewhat), how dry the skin is and
> where the contact points are on the body. One older fellow I worked
....snip....

Several of you posters are really scaring me on this topic. If half of
you believe even bits that have been posted in this thread I don't
expect to read anything more from you within the next several months.

Benton has a chunk of the information in that 120VAC is _DANGEROUS_!!
...and yes at these voltages and frequencies (60Hz) 100mA is almost
assuredly deadly. However, under not that unusual conditions fatalities
can occur with 120VAC at currents under even 10mA! ..no you don't need
to be taking a salt-water bath as there are numerous other items that
will drop the skin resistance to permit these fatal current flows
including excessive sweating and even more so a break/burn in the skin.

A GFCI will typically cut the circuit at the 5mA ground leakage current
that is considered a manageable risk level for most conditions and
people but of course not a certainty. When I was involved in the
Electrical Safety business in Hospitals in the 70's ICU's & OR's used a
2mA alarm standard that I believe has been dropped since then into well
under the 0.5mA range to recognize the increased exposure by the lower
resistance seen in open flesh. Death can well occur at less than 100mA
at 120VAC and by numerous other factors. Treat with respect.

The GFCI works on the principle that it is able to "detect" any
_potential_ current leaks to ground. The fault current does not exist
(flow) yet but rather the devices monitors that there are defects in the
circuitry that could cause a fatal electric shock should a powered
device or line have a person be in contact with the 'failed component'-
and the safety device will shut down to prevent the actual shock
failure. There are many possible patterns that can make this condition
occur not the least being shoddy/worn insulation and broken ground wires.

For all the stories about testing live circuits with fingers and
grabbing live wires - they are not impossible nor in many cases even
risky _IF_ you fully _understand_ what you are doing and for that reason
should never be attempted by the average person.

Urban legends, hearsay and 'best guess' are not to your well being when
dealing with electricity. Get facts or leave it alone.

Ed

Possible death. Replace the cord.

"Tim Zimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1116159867.dda65d992f7a2135aa9763b69aaf9081@bubbanews...
> Is it safe to operate an all alloy housing circular saw. My
> 15-year old industrial saw is reliable but the only thing aging
> is the cord. The cord's insulation is cracking and deteriorating.
> Last I'd check the ground wire is open but hidden from view.
> What would be the hazards if I continue to use it?
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On 2005/5/15 12:52 PM, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
>> milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
>>
> You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult
> to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
> Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
> everything!

The situation that you described is worse than standing in salt water. If
you really had one hand on the Hot and the other on the Neutral, then the
current went right through your chest.

> Benton has a chunk of the information in that 120VAC is _DANGEROUS_!!
> ...and yes at these voltages and frequencies (60Hz) 100mA is almost
> assuredly deadly. However, under not that unusual conditions fatalities
> can occur with 120VAC at currents under even 10mA! ..no you don't need to
> be taking a salt-water bath as there are numerous other items that will
> drop the skin resistance to permit these fatal current flows including
> excessive sweating and even more so a break/burn in the skin.
>

Yes, excessive sweating and a break in the skin can allow higher than normal
CURRENTS for a given VOLTAGE by lowering the skin RESISTANCE. (though they
are unlikely to lower the resistance of your shoes to make you grounded, and
without a ground connection, it doesn't matter how low your skin resistance
is.)
But they will not make 10ma anymore harmful. Exactly what "not that
unusual conditions" will 10ma cause fatalities? Being tied up with the
wires?

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:59Khe.270$%[email protected]...
>
> A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
> contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
> "the other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive
> and unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
> impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.
> Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from 4000v or higher.

After a delivery truck hit a power pole and knocked down some power lines I
questioned the gentleman managing and keeping an eye on the crew repairing
the power lines. He indicated that 220 is more likely to get you as it
tends to hold on to you. The much higher voltage lines will more likely
throw you away.

"Rich Grise" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're
> working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V
> filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the
> 4KV plate supply.
>
> "Which one killed you?"

If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~)

If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a
different body?



>
> Cheers!
> Rich
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>Rich Grise wrote:
>....
>> When I was an electronics tech in the US Air Force, ...
>> We also were required to take off all rings and watches, and it
>> was strongly recommended to put one hand in your pocket.
>>
>> There was also the UL about the guy who ohmed out the igniter on
>> an AIM-7 or AIM-9 missile, and the fins cut off both of his hands.
>
>Did he then keep one of them in his pocket?

DUH! *Both* of them!

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

toller wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Any electrical book. Ever read one?
>>
>>As a matter of fact I did. Many. And I have a piece of paper to prove it.
>>I went straight from college into a career at Ontario Hydro (the
>>province-wide power company) in operations.
>>During my tenure in operations at a 2000 MW power-station, I received an
>>award for identifying safety problems relating to test procedures in
>>station service electrical distribution. Again, paper/plaque and
>>pictures from a dinner in my honour to prove it.
>>But that's enough about me.
>>
>>How about you? If you ever DID read anything about electrical
>>engineering, you must now read some material on interpretative skills
>>and memory retention, because, buddy, you do not know what you are
>>talking about.
>
>
> Aside from being an electrical engineer?

You are? Wow! I have worked with other degreed people who were
completely clueless. It's still remarkable to me when I meet another.
Now do you mean engineer -- or technologist? There is a difference. You
might want to see if your old alma matter has a rework dept...


>(or receiving dozens of 120v shocks
> without any ill-effects?)

I think that is the debate here.

> Without waving your hands and throwing another hissy-fit, dispute one single
> thing I have said with documented facts. Do so, and I will never post
> regarding electrical issues again.

Did people not dispute at least one thing? I could too -- waste of time.
You ignore facts contrary to your experience or opinions.

Post as much as you like -- it's a somewhat free country you live.
Movies out for two people cost $30 to $50 -- otoh -- your posts are free
and far more entertaining.

> Hint; "everyone knows" is not a documented fact.

Always the helpful one I see.



>
>


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

In article <Yu4ie.328$w%[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Amazing. You know everything, but just don't want to bother with a single
>fact. Right...


One fact that you seem to have a little trouble grasping is that you have a
lengthy history, both in rec.woodworking and in alt.home.repair, of offering
electrical "advice" that is demonstrably incorrect and often dangerous.

Want an example?

About a month ago, over in ahr, somebody was asking about wiring up a range
hood, or a stove, I forget which - and you told him to connect the green wire
(hint: green = equipment ground) to the circuit *neutral*.

Want another?

A couple days ago, again in ahr, you told a guy to connect both hot legs of an
Edison circuit to a single-pole duplex breaker, because you don't know the
difference between that, and a double-pole breaker.

You're *dangerous*, toller. Quit trying to answer electrical questions. You
don't have the first idea what you're talking about, and you're going to kill
somebody some day.

In article <[email protected]>, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian <[email protected]> wrote:

>Whoever said "guns don't kill people" was full of shit. Of course
>they do, that's what they're for.

Nonsense. When has a gun ever pulled its own trigger?

As to "what they're for"... most of mine are for killing deer. At least in
theory. In practice, it seems that for the most part, they're just for making
my arms tired while I sit in a tree stand. Kill people? Yeah, they'd probably
work for that, too, but I don't plan to find out.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>,
LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sun, 15 May 2005 17:03:17 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Glad I'm not the only one that does that.
> >
> >"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
> >> that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.
>
> Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
> and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.

Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
proven otherwise."

If there's even the slightest doubt that a pair of wires might be hot,
then *THEY ARE* until proven otherwise.

Any other assumption in either case is stupidity on a scale you only
read newspaper articles about. Usually articles ending "Services will be
provided by <insert name> funeral home."

--
Don Bruder - [email protected] - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.

In article <1116159867.dda65d992f7a2135aa9763b69aaf9081@bubbanews>,
[email protected] says...

> Is it safe to operate an all alloy housing circular saw. My
> 15-year old industrial saw is reliable but the only thing aging
> is the cord. The cord's insulation is cracking and deteriorating.
> Last I'd check the ground wire is open but hidden from view.
> What would be the hazards if I continue to use it?

You would be risking a fatal electrical shock, should the saw
develop an internal insulation fault (as it very well could if it's that
old).

Replace the cord completely. If you lack the requisite skill
and/or tools to do so properly, you should take the unit to a
professional repair shop. Any place that repairs power tools should be
able to handle it.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

<snippety>

> I certainly agree that the cord should be replaced; but it is not
> particularly dangerous. To get any shock, you would have to both short the

<snippety-two>

Underestimating potential hazards has probably gotten lots of
people killed.

Any cord that is frayed and cracking is dangerous. Period. That
saw should NOT be used, under any conditions, until it has been properly
repaired.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"

In article <1116192152.ce14365b22134300926898074b7384d5@bubbanews>, "Tim Zimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> ...judging by his lack of response.
>
>I haven't found the time to work on the cord. I will now.
>
>Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
>and saws get away without a ground plug?

They're double-insulated. That means it takes *two* failures to make the case
live, instead of one.
>
>(Here's an ignorant question) Is it true that I can receive a fatal shock if
>I touch my skin from either neutral or hot and then ground? If so, then why
>not replace the ground with a safer model which doesn't allow a shock?

If you mean, can you get a fatal shock from touching either hot or neutral,
while some other part of your body is touching ground, the answer is - Yes,
you can.

Equipment ground conductors are intended to ensure that no matter what happens
in the device you're using, its chassis cannot become live because the chassis
is connected to a true earth ground.

For maximum safety, use grounded tools, and plug them into a GFCI.
>
>Lastly, a hot or neutral short to ground shuts down my entire electrical
>system. Is this the GFCI?

The *entire* electrical system? Every circuit? That's a bit unusual... that
would suggest that your main breakers have tripped.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, "Jim" <[email protected]> wrote:

>You won't get much of a shock by simultaneously touching neutral and ground.

Not necessarily so. It depends on how well you're grounded. If you touch
neutral and ground simultaneously, your body is providing an alternate path to
ground, in parallel with the neutral conductor. If you're standing in a puddle
on a bare concrete floor, you're providing a fairly low-impedance path to
ground. I wouldn't want to try the experiment.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Aside from being an electrical engineer?

The closest you've ever come to being an "electrical engineer" is driving a
Lionel train when you were a kid. You don't even know the difference between
neutral and ground.

>(or receiving dozens of 120v shocks
>without any ill-effects?)

The ill-effects are obvious in your posts.

>Without waving your hands and throwing another hissy-fit, dispute one single
>thing I have said with documented facts. Do so, and I will never post
>regarding electrical issues again.

The world could only be so lucky. It's been documented already, pretty
thoroughly, in this thread. Go read some of the responses to your posts.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Mine don't. Left alone, they just lay there. You must be talking about the
new animated ones, the ones with free will. Never seen one.

"Richard the Dreaded Libertarian" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Whoever said "guns don't kill people" was full of shit. Of course
> they do, that's what they're for.

"Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:59Khe.270$%[email protected]...
>>
>> "spudnuty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but
>>> even with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure
>>> grounds to keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and
>>> only run your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites
>>> I've been on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from
>>> workmen bypassing them.
>>> Richard
>>>
>>
>> A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
>> contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
>> "the other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be
>> alive and unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is
>> almost impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal
>> circumstances. Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from
>> 4000v or higher.
>>
>
>
> IT ISN'T THE VOLTAGE! When I was in USN, they had studies showing deaths
> from relatively low voltages. It's the amps, or more precisely the
> milliamps, and where they travel. A certain milliamp current can be lethal
> if it passes through the heart/chest area because it will cause the heart
> to go into fibrillation, while a relatively high current may just cause
> the heart to stop, but once it is removed the heart will restart on it's
> own. I don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
> 90-100 milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
>
> --
> Nahmie
> The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

In low voltage the injuries are not usually from the electricity but the
secondary reaction. If you are on a ladder and have an electrical induced
muscle contraction it can throw you off the ladder killing you when you hit
the ground. Likewise if you are holding a screwdriver, you might stab
yourself in the eye/brain. (has happened) You could twitch and drill a hole
in your leg. If it's an electric chain saw .....Did you ever see a chain saw
injury? It gets right to the arteries and you bleed to death fast.
So a properly grounded power tool is safer and a GFI plug is better.

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Glad I'm not the only one that does that.
>
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
>> that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.
>>

And who says the breaker box was labeled correctly or labeled at all.

Andy Dingley wrote:

....snip...
> cable and to carry on using it is just pikey.
>

?? What is the definition here? 'pikey' - don't recognize it as a
Canajun term.

Ed

Ed & Sue Beresnikow <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
>
> Andy Dingley wrote:
>
> ....snip...
>> cable and to carry on using it is just pikey.
>>
>
> ?? What is the definition here? 'pikey' - don't recognize it as a
> Canajun term.
>

Andy is a Brit. Do your best to translate from context. ;-)

"Tim Zimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1116192152.ce14365b22134300926898074b7384d5@bubbanews...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>> ...judging by his lack of response.
>
> I haven't found the time to work on the cord. I will now.
>
> Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
> and saws get away without a ground plug?
>
They are double insulated. In normal use you should not be touching
anything that could be energized by a shorted hot.

> (Here's an ignorant question) Is it true that I can receive a fatal shock
> if
> I touch my skin from either neutral or hot and then ground? If so, then
> why
> not replace the ground with a safer model which doesn't allow a shock?

You cannot get a shock from a neutral unless it is open. A closed neutral
(which it would be, unless it were broken) is such a good conductor that
virtually no current would go through you. Until a few years ago dryers and
stoves had the frames connected to the neutral. They are perfectly safe
unless the neutral is broken, and then you may be the best path to ground.
>
> Lastly, a hot or neutral short to ground shuts down my entire electrical
> system. Is this the GFCI?

No, that is an overload that trips the breaker. It takes either time or a
huge overload. It protects the wiring, not you!
A GFCI trips very quickly if the current going out on the hot is not exactly
the same as the current returning on the neutral. It protects you if you
touch the hot. It will not protect you if you touch the hot and the
neutral; but you would have to be a real cluck to do that! (please refer to
my first post above.)
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
>> >Do you like watching gladiator movies, Doug?
>>
>> Not particularly; why do you ask?
>
>'Twas an Airplane! reference, not funny at this time.

DUH! Of course it was. My morning coffee hadn't kicked in yet, I guess.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"WillR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> toller wrote:
>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Any electrical book. Ever read one?
>>>
>>>As a matter of fact I did. Many. And I have a piece of paper to prove it.
>>>I went straight from college into a career at Ontario Hydro (the
>>>province-wide power company) in operations.
>>>During my tenure in operations at a 2000 MW power-station, I received an
>>>award for identifying safety problems relating to test procedures in
>>>station service electrical distribution. Again, paper/plaque and
>>>pictures from a dinner in my honour to prove it.
>>>But that's enough about me.
>>>
>>>How about you? If you ever DID read anything about electrical
>>>engineering, you must now read some material on interpretative skills
>>>and memory retention, because, buddy, you do not know what you are
>>>talking about.
>>
>>
>> Aside from being an electrical engineer?
>
> You are? Wow! I have worked with other degreed people who were completely
> clueless. It's still remarkable to me when I meet another. Now do you mean
> engineer -- or technologist? There is a difference. You might want to see
> if your old alma matter has a rework dept...
>
>
>>(or receiving dozens of 120v shocks without any ill-effects?)
>
> I think that is the debate here.
>
>> Without waving your hands and throwing another hissy-fit, dispute one
>> single thing I have said with documented facts. Do so, and I will never
>> post regarding electrical issues again.
>
> Did people not dispute at least one thing? I could too -- waste of time.
> You ignore facts contrary to your experience or opinions.
>
> Post as much as you like -- it's a somewhat free country you live. Movies
> out for two people cost $30 to $50 -- otoh -- your posts are free and far
> more entertaining.
>
>> Hint; "everyone knows" is not a documented fact.
>
> Always the helpful one I see.
>
Amazing. You know everything, but just don't want to bother with a single
fact. Right...

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I asked you:
>>How about you?
>
> Answer that first.

Do you realize you replied to your own dumb comment?
>
>> Hint; "everyone knows" is not a documented fact.
>
> Sometimes both are one and the same.

Sure, occasionally, but it is still never used in an intelligent discussion.
>
> For instance:
>
> Everyone knows you don't know what you're talking about AND the group
> has a documented paper-trail of what you have been posting.
>
> Besides, I never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Hey, my 9 year old said the same thing to a friend the other day!
>
> END of discussion with you.

So, you concede you can't come up with a single fact. Then stop posting.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Any electrical book. Ever read one?
>
> As a matter of fact I did. Many. And I have a piece of paper to prove it.
> I went straight from college into a career at Ontario Hydro (the
> province-wide power company) in operations.
> During my tenure in operations at a 2000 MW power-station, I received an
> award for identifying safety problems relating to test procedures in
> station service electrical distribution. Again, paper/plaque and
> pictures from a dinner in my honour to prove it.
> But that's enough about me.
>
> How about you? If you ever DID read anything about electrical
> engineering, you must now read some material on interpretative skills
> and memory retention, because, buddy, you do not know what you are
> talking about.

Aside from being an electrical engineer? (or receiving dozens of 120v shocks
without any ill-effects?)
Without waving your hands and throwing another hissy-fit, dispute one single
thing I have said with documented facts. Do so, and I will never post
regarding electrical issues again.

Hint; "everyone knows" is not a documented fact.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> > Besides, I never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
>>
>> Hey, my 9 year old said the same thing to a friend the other day!
>
> I guess he also taught you how to have an intelligent discussion?
>
>
>> >
>> > END of discussion with you.
>>
>> So, you concede you can't come up with a single fact. Then stop posting.
>
> I conceded nothing. If you think you can get people to respect you
> around here by putting words in my mouth, guess again.
>
> I said I wasn't discussing anything with you, and I really must move on
> to things that need my attention. Please stop replying to my posts,
> because every time you do, I read them, thinking that you may have seen
> the errors of your ways and apologized like a man for offering wrong
> advice on electrical matters here and in previous threads.
>
> Best not be holding my breath, eh?
>
> Go play with your 9 year old. You can still impress humans at that age.

You have plenty of time to babble; just no time for facts. Hmm.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
90-100
> > > milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
> > >
> > You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is
difficult
> > to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
> > Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will
change
> > everything!
>
> Where do you get this ? You state this stuff as fact? Do you have ANY
> idea how irresponsible you are?
>
> Shame on you!
-------
Actually, such information is available many places, including the EPRI book
on EHV power lines. The 100ma level is about the 0.5% probability level for
fibrillation. However, fibrillation is time dependent so that on prolonged
contact, the level drops (i.e. at a let-go current of 9-10ma it takes about
10 minutes to cause fibrillation). In many cases, design is based on a 5ma
level which is considered at or below the let-go level (not painless) for
both adults and children.
--
Don Kelly
[email protected]
remove the urine to answer

On Tue, 17 May 2005 01:14:39 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Lee DeRaud <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Don't forget the scene in LS&TSB where they have English subtitles for
>>the black nightclub owner...who's speaking English.
>
>It's been done before - remember 'Airplane'? Cracked me up when the guy says
>"shiiiiiiit" and the subtitle shows "golly!"

Yeah, but I could pretty much follow what the 'Airplane' guy was
saying. The Brit? NFW. (IIRC, it was cockney rhyming slang...with a
Jamaican accent.)

At work, I have to translate Geek to Manager:
"Perhaps I can be of assistance: I speak jive."

Lee

> don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
> milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
>
You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult
to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
everything!

In article <[email protected]>, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, Lee DeRaud
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Don't forget the scene in LS&TSB where they have English subtitles for
>> >the black nightclub owner...who's speaking English.
>>
>> It's been done before - remember 'Airplane'? Cracked me up when the guy says
>> "shiiiiiiit" and the subtitle shows "golly!"
>
>Do you like watching gladiator movies, Doug?

Not particularly; why do you ask?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:59Khe.270$%[email protected]...
>
> "spudnuty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but
>> even with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure
>> grounds to keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and
>> only run your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites
>> I've been on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from
>> workmen bypassing them.
>> Richard
>>
>
> A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
> contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
> "the other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive
> and unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
> impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.
> Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from 4000v or higher.
>


IT ISN'T THE VOLTAGE! When I was in USN, they had studies showing deaths
from relatively low voltages. It's the amps, or more precisely the
milliamps, and where they travel. A certain milliamp current can be lethal
if it passes through the heart/chest area because it will cause the heart to
go into fibrillation, while a relatively high current may just cause the
heart to stop, but once it is removed the heart will restart on it's own. I
don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

"Nog" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

<snippage>

>
> In low voltage the injuries are not usually from the electricity but the
> secondary reaction. If you are on a ladder and have an electrical induced
> muscle contraction it can throw you off the ladder killing you when you
> hit the ground. Likewise if you are holding a screwdriver, you might stab
> yourself in the eye/brain. (has happened) You could twitch and drill a
> hole in your leg. If it's an electric chain saw .....Did you ever see a
> chain saw injury? It gets right to the arteries and you bleed to death
> fast.
> So a properly grounded power tool is safer and a GFI plug is better.
>
>
I wasn't arguing the point that the cord should be replaced and the tool
properly grounded. I was merely making a comment about the fact that it
doesn't have to be a high voltage or high current that can kill you. There
are so many variables in an electric shock situation that it is nearly
impossible to set a hard & fast rule about what may or may not be fatal.

As Toller said, electricians often get "tingles". Not my idea of how to test
a circuit, but I've seen many USN electricians mates test circa WWII
shipboard fuse panels(cylindrical fuses on both hot & common) by walking two
fingers down the line of fuses. When they get a tingle across one fuse, it's
the bad one. Still not my idea of fun.

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

In article <[email protected]>, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Glad I'm not the only one that does that.
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
>> that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.

In fact, I do more than that: I plug my tester into something that I'm sure
*is* live, to make sure it lights up when it's supposed to, before using on
something that I believe to be not live.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <1116159867.dda65d992f7a2135aa9763b69aaf9081@bubbanews>,
"Tim Zimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Is it safe to operate an all alloy housing circular saw. My
> 15-year old industrial saw is reliable but the only thing aging
> is the cord. The cord's insulation is cracking and deteriorating.
> Last I'd check the ground wire is open but hidden from view.
> What would be the hazards if I continue to use it?
>
> Thanks

If a PaceMaker can keep your heart going with fractions of milliwatts
and low voltage, WTF makes you think that ANY electrical current is safe
or safer?

A ground is there to conduct possible power away from where it can cause
damage. To knowingly operate a metal tool without a proper ground is
just plain fucking stupid. Nothing else sums it up better. You are a
fucking moron.

Or a troll.

I'm going with both.

In article <[email protected]>,
WillR <[email protected]> wrote:

> Good advice Doug. I do triple checks and am used the the rolled eyes
> from "knowledgeable" people. F** em. It's less stress to do what you
> suggest, and it's better advice to give.

Hear hear!

In article <[email protected]>,
Patriarch <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ed & Sue Beresnikow <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> >
> >
> > Andy Dingley wrote:
> >
> > ....snip...
> >> cable and to carry on using it is just pikey.
> >>
> >
> > ?? What is the definition here? 'pikey' - don't recognize it as a
> > Canajun term.
> >
>
> Andy is a Brit. Do your best to translate from context. ;-)

Watch the movie "Snatch" on DVD. Listen carefully to how Brad Pitt talks
in that flick. Then, when reading a post from Andy, superimpose, in your
mind, Pitt's accent with Andy's words.
It will all make sense then.

*ducking*



A Guy Ritchie film. Snatch, as well as Lock Stock And Two Smoking
Barrels are amongst my favourite movies.
Ritchie is a great film maker, IMHO. Why he married that douche-bag
Madonna, I'll never know.

Waitasec, in which newsgroup am I?

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> I think the OP was trolling, judging by his lack of response. It looks
> like he hauled in a whole netfull.
>
> Bob

At the risk he was just an ignorant fool, I decided to respond anyway.
But I think you're probably right.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, toller <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Benton has a chunk of the information in that 120VAC is _DANGEROUS_!!
> >> ...and yes at these voltages and frequencies (60Hz) 100mA is almost
> >> assuredly deadly. However, under not that unusual conditions fatalities
> >> can occur with 120VAC at currents under even 10mA! ..no you don't need to
> >> be taking a salt-water bath as there are numerous other items that will
> >> drop the skin resistance to permit these fatal current flows including
> >> excessive sweating and even more so a break/burn in the skin.
> >>
> >
> >Yes, excessive sweating and a break in the skin can allow higher than normal
> >CURRENTS for a given VOLTAGE by lowering the skin RESISTANCE. (though they
> >are unlikely to lower the resistance of your shoes to make you grounded, and
> >without a ground connection, it doesn't matter how low your skin resistance
> >is.)
> >But they will not make 10ma anymore harmful. Exactly what "not that
> >unusual conditions" will 10ma cause fatalities? Being tied up with the
> >wires?
>
> Just, for starters, EIGHT to TEN milliamps at the skin surface is sufficient
> to cause seizure of the muscles, If you are grasping the live contact, you
> *will*not* be able to let go of it.
>
> That same ten milli-amps or so, _while_you_remain_in_contact_with_it_,
> has all sorts of 'interesting" secondary effects. Affected musculature
> is spasming -- which differs from *very* heavy exercise only in that the
> muscles do not get the chance relax completely between contractions.
> The body reacts to this by increasing the blood-flow to the area; by
> secreting moisture to the surface of the skin, for evaporative cooling;
> by migration of intra-cellular fluids into the area to provide more 'food'
> for the muscle cells, etc. ALL of those things have an effect on the
> resistance to the electrical current. They all _decrease_ it. Thus,
> the current flow *CLIMBS*.
>
> In addition, as the internal "chemistry" shifts around, the -path- of the
> current flow changes. All skin/muscles/etc, are _not_ created equal.
> Some conduct electricity better than others. "nerve cells" are especially
> good conductors. As the conductivity of the body parts increases -- for
> the reasons discussed in the previous paragraph -- current flow also tends
> to become more 'localized'; rather than a low current flow across a wide
> cross-section, you get high current in relatively small areas, and very
> little current in adjacent areas. Note well that the conductivity of
> those 'adjacent areas' has *NOT* decreased. The 'localization' happens
> because the conductivity of those 'local' areas is *much* better.
> Oddly enough, this results in increased current flow over-all, as well
> as radically higher current 'density' in those 'better path' routes.
>
>
> Also, effects on muscle tissue (*and* nerve fiber) depend not only on the
> current flow, but *HOW*LONG* the current flows. Once you get above a very
> low threshold (sub-milli-amp), degree of "injury" does increase with
> continued exposure. And, of course, the higher the current flow, the
> faster the 'damage' accumulates.
>
> "Given time" 10-15 ma, *or*less*, CAN kill you. Disruption of autonomic
> nervous system functions -- including heart-beat -- "slow cooking" of
> nervous pathways, etc.
>
> Remember, even at that level, if muscles spasm so that you are in contact
> with the live wire, you will *NOT* get free _by_yourself_. Thus, in a
> very real sense, "how quickly" things happen is not an issue. :)

Nicely done, sir. Thanks for that.

In article <[email protected]>,
Rich Grise <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote:
>
> >
> > "Rich Grise" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're
> >> working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V
> >> filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the
> >> 4KV plate supply.
> >>
> >> "Which one killed you?"
> >
> > If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~)
> >
> > If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a
> > different body?
> >
>
> I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-)
>
> Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while
> simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your
> eyes.
>
> Where is your finger pointing?
>
> Cheers!
> Rich

Why...in my nose, of course!

In article <[email protected]>,
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

I asked you:
>How about you?

Answer that first.

> Hint; "everyone knows" is not a documented fact.

Sometimes both are one and the same.

For instance:

Everyone knows you don't know what you're talking about AND the group
has a documented paper-trail of what you have been posting.

Besides, I never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

END of discussion with you.

In article <[email protected]>,
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Any electrical book. Ever read one?

As a matter of fact I did. Many. And I have a piece of paper to prove it.
I went straight from college into a career at Ontario Hydro (the
province-wide power company) in operations.
During my tenure in operations at a 2000 MW power-station, I received an
award for identifying safety problems relating to test procedures in
station service electrical distribution. Again, paper/plaque and
pictures from a dinner in my honour to prove it.
But that's enough about me.

How about you? If you ever DID read anything about electrical
engineering, you must now read some material on interpretative skills
and memory retention, because, buddy, you do not know what you are
talking about.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Lee DeRaud
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Don't forget the scene in LS&TSB where they have English subtitles for
> >the black nightclub owner...who's speaking English.
>
> It's been done before - remember 'Airplane'? Cracked me up when the guy says
> "shiiiiiiit" and the subtitle shows "golly!"
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Do you like watching gladiator movies, Doug?

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:

> >Do you like watching gladiator movies, Doug?
>
> Not particularly; why do you ask?

'Twas an Airplane! reference, not funny at this time.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:

> In fact, I do more than that: I plug my tester into something that I'm sure
> *is* live, to make sure it lights up when it's supposed to, before using on
> something that I believe to be not live.

That's exactly the same thing I do. I don't even trust voltmeters or
testers. I want to see them work first.
THAT is how electricity is handled.

In article <[email protected]>,
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
> > milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
> >
> You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult
> to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
> Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
> everything!

Where do you get this ? You state this stuff as fact? Do you have ANY
idea how irresponsible you are?

Shame on you!

In article <[email protected]>,
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > Besides, I never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
>
> Hey, my 9 year old said the same thing to a friend the other day!

I guess he also taught you how to have an intelligent discussion?


> >
> > END of discussion with you.
>
> So, you concede you can't come up with a single fact. Then stop posting.

I conceded nothing. If you think you can get people to respect you
around here by putting words in my mouth, guess again.

I said I wasn't discussing anything with you, and I really must move on
to things that need my attention. Please stop replying to my posts,
because every time you do, I read them, thinking that you may have seen
the errors of your ways and apologized like a man for offering wrong
advice on electrical matters here and in previous threads.

Best not be holding my breath, eh?

Go play with your 9 year old. You can still impress humans at that age.

On Mon, 16 May 2005 14:17:00 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:


>
>(I'm posting from Europe, your local terms may be different).

[good stuff snipped]

>US wiring is a shocking abomination by design and so it's only the huge
>number of GFCIs and arcing-fault breakers (a totally alien concept in
>the UK) that stop your evil aluminum wiring killing the population of
>Detroit weekly.

Andy, Andy, Andy. You were doing good until here.

GFCIs are primarily protection when you're near water (kitchen,
bathroom, spa, pool, basement). They're not used on every circuit.

Arcing fault breakers are a relatively recent development, and I
suspect, the result of arc fault breaker industry lobbying rather than
a solution to an actual widespread problem. I'd be interested in
knowing how many deaths AFIs could have saved in the century of the
Edison system that we didn't have them.

Aluminum wiring (in house) was used for a relatively short time, in
only a very few houses (comparitvely), quite a number of years ago (on
the order of 30 or more). Although there are probably some houses that
still have it, it's not mowing down the populace left and right. The
vast, VAST majority of US homes are wired in copper.

Aluminum feeders and transmission lines are an altogether different
story and aren't killing anyone because they're aluminum, so far as I
know.

[more good stuff snipped]

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Benton has a chunk of the information in that 120VAC is _DANGEROUS_!!
>> ...and yes at these voltages and frequencies (60Hz) 100mA is almost
>> assuredly deadly. However, under not that unusual conditions fatalities
>> can occur with 120VAC at currents under even 10mA! ..no you don't need to
>> be taking a salt-water bath as there are numerous other items that will
>> drop the skin resistance to permit these fatal current flows including
>> excessive sweating and even more so a break/burn in the skin.
>>
>
>Yes, excessive sweating and a break in the skin can allow higher than normal
>CURRENTS for a given VOLTAGE by lowering the skin RESISTANCE. (though they
>are unlikely to lower the resistance of your shoes to make you grounded, and
>without a ground connection, it doesn't matter how low your skin resistance
>is.)
>But they will not make 10ma anymore harmful. Exactly what "not that
>unusual conditions" will 10ma cause fatalities? Being tied up with the
>wires?

Dumbass! Such conditions will cause *much*more* than 10ma to flow! That's why
they're dangerous!

And this is why "you're* dangerous: you don't understand electricity, and yet
you continue to give "advice" about it.
>
>
>

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I asked you:
>>How about you?
>
> Answer that first.
>
>> Hint; "everyone knows" is not a documented fact.
>
> Sometimes both are one and the same.
>
> For instance:
>
> Everyone knows you don't know what you're talking about AND the group
> has a documented paper-trail of what you have been posting.
>
> Besides, I never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
>
> END of discussion with you.

"Tim Zimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1116192152.ce14365b22134300926898074b7384d5@bubbanews...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > ...judging by his lack of response.
>
> I haven't found the time to work on the cord. I will now.
>
> Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
> and saws get away without a ground plug?
In addition to not having a metal case, they are double insulated..
>
> (Here's an ignorant question) Is it true that I can receive a fatal shock
if
> I touch my skin from either neutral or hot and then ground? If so, then
why
> not replace the ground with a safer model which doesn't allow a shock?
You won't get much of a shock by simultaneously touching neutral and ground.
You can get a nasty shock by simulataneously touching the hot wire and
either the neutral or ground wires.
>
> Lastly, a hot or neutral short to ground shuts down my entire electrical
> system. Is this the GFCI?
No
Jim

> You would be risking a fatal electrical shock, should the saw
> develop an internal insulation fault (as it very well could if it's that
> old).
>
> Replace the cord completely. If you lack the requisite skill
> and/or tools to do so properly, you should take the unit to a
> professional repair shop. Any place that repairs power tools should be
> able to handle it.

I certainly agree that the cord should be replaced; but it is not
particularly dangerous. To get any shock, you would have to both short the
hot to the frame and break the neutral. While certainly not impossible, it
isn't likely. (Though I just threw out a 60 year old waffle iron with
exactly this problem; well actually it was shorted before the switch, so it
was like a broken neutral.)
Even then, the bigger danger is dropping a saw with a spinning blade than
electrocution.

My oven, like millions out there, has the neutral attached to the frame;
which is essentially a deliberate short. Unless the neutral is broken, it
is harmless. It is a foolish setup, and is now contrary to code, but you
would be hard pressed to find anyone hurt by it.

On Sun, 15 May 2005 17:03:17 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Glad I'm not the only one that does that.
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
>> that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.

Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

toller wrote:
>>don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
>>milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
>>
>
> You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult
> to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
> Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
> everything!
>
>


What colour of flowers would you like at your funeral? Best you let us
know now. If you believe that shit, you are going to take a chance some day.

Risks are one thing -- chance is another.


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

In article <[email protected]>,
LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

In home accidents in the U.S., one death in every hundred is the result
of an electrical shock from 110 or 220 volt sources.

Injuries from electric shock account for about 1000 deaths annually in
the United States and comprise about 5% of admissions to burn centres.
More than 60% of reported electrical injuries are due to electrocution
with 110- or 220-V current and most commonly result from failure to
ground tools or appliances properly or from using electrical devices
near water. Electrocution is the fifth leading cause of fatal
occupational injuries in the United States; 1% of household accidental
deaths are caused by electrical injuries.

The spectrum of clinical injury from accidental electrical shock ranges
from a transient unpleasant sensation after exposure to low-intensity
current to sudden death due to cardiac arrest. Clinical manifestations
are sometimes seen immediately after contact, but might not become
apparent until several hours after injury.

Source: Fish R. "Electric Shock. Part I: physics and pathophysiology",
Journal of Emergency Medicine, 1993, vol. 11, pp. 309-12.



--
Benoit Evans

On Sun, 15 May 2005 14:33:36 -0700, "Tim Zimmer" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
>and saws get away without a ground plug?

(I'm posting from Europe, your local terms may be different).


All electrical appliances must be insulated, meaning that the live and
neutral feeds are not connected to any accessible part of the appliance.
However things break, and so we must also design them to be moderately
safe even after this insulation fails.

One way it to wrap them in a conducting case and then earth this case.
If they're supplied through an appropriate fuse, then the fault current
(internal "works" to case) is then enough to blow the fuse and make the
appliance safe. For this reason the earth must not only conduct, but it
must conduct _well_.

Another approach is an RCD or GFCI. This measures "earth leakage",
usually be measuring the difference in current between live and neutral
wires. If there's a difference of more than a few mA (i.e. the current
has gone _somewhere_ it's not meant to), then something is wrong and the
RCD trips.

UK wiring has much better appliance fusing than other systems, so until
quite recently (10-20 years) we've been quite lax about using RCDs. US
wiring is a shocking abomination by design and so it's only the huge
number of GFCIs and arcing-fault breakers (a totally alien concept in
the UK) that stop your evil aluminum wiring killing the population of
Detroit weekly.

Around the late '60s, a new approach developed. Plastic was the new
thing, and plastic cased appliances were everywhere. These allowed the
economic use of "double insulated" appliances. They were still insulated
(of course) but now they also had to _remain_ insulated, even after an
internal fault. If the wire fell out of the switch and hit the case,
the case mustn't in turn become "live". Of course with plastics for
cases, this isn't that hard to arrange. Once the standards had got
sorted out and clever designers knew how to work with them, you could
even get such bizarre things as double-insulated hair curlers, where you
stick a big metal heating element on your head, without an earth wire.
Not something _I'm_ going to trust in a hurry, I can tell you.

You can spot double insulated appliances in Europe by the two nested
squares logo. It's also likely that they only have two wire cables, as
you describe. The crucial thing is their internal design though, not
merely missing off the earth wire!

--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

On Mon, 16 May 2005 18:30:38 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Patriarch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Ed & Sue Beresnikow <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> > Andy Dingley wrote:
>> >
>> > ....snip...
>> >> cable and to carry on using it is just pikey.
>> >>
>> > ?? What is the definition here? 'pikey' - don't recognize it as a
>> > Canajun term.
>>
>> Andy is a Brit. Do your best to translate from context. ;-)
>
>Watch the movie "Snatch" on DVD. Listen carefully to how Brad Pitt talks
>in that flick. Then, when reading a post from Andy, superimpose, in your
>mind, Pitt's accent with Andy's words.
>It will all make sense then.
>
>*ducking*
>
>A Guy Ritchie film. Snatch, as well as Lock Stock And Two Smoking
>Barrels are amongst my favourite movies.

Don't forget the scene in LS&TSB where they have English subtitles for
the black nightclub owner...who's speaking English.

There's also the series "A Car Is Reborn", basically the "New Yankee
Workshop" approach to restoring a Jaguar XKE. They do occasional
segments from some track up north, where a maniac flogs the bejeezus
out of some vintage British racing car, usually in pissing-down rain,
jabbering away in what I think is supposed to be English. On average I
understand about one word in three. The car's owner is usually in the
passenger seat, scared shitless, and AFAICT he doesn't understand what
the driver is saying any better than I do.

Lee

On Sun, 15 May 2005 16:52:23 GMT, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>But it is difficult
>to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.

Sure is. The problem is that I'm made of 70% salt water




(and no jokes about 30% tequila and lime juice)

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <59Khe.270$%[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
>>contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought "the
>>other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive and
>>unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
>>impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.
>
>
> Once again demonstrating that you have _no_business_ giving electrical advice
> to anyone. _Of_course_ it's almost impossible to get a lethal shock under
> "normal circumstances" because "normal circumstances" don't include doing
> stupid stuff like putting your hands across a live circuit. It's _abnormal_
> circumstances that are dangerous, and it is indeed quite possible to receive a
> fatal shock from 120V when something has gone wrong - like installing a stove
> with its equipment ground connected to the circuit neutral conductor, as you
> recently told someone to do.

Aye!!

> And only an idiot would assume that "the other guy" had opened the breaker,
> and not check first. Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
> that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.

Good advice Doug. I do triple checks and am used the the rolled eyes
from "knowledgeable" people. F** em. It's less stress to do what you
suggest, and it's better advice to give.

And I am never embarrassed to have anyone check my work. No one has
never found me to make a wiring error, but if someone asked to check my
work I would say "thank you" and move over. Getting it right and safe is
cheaper than the alternative.

Usually it is the qualified engineers who recognize the value of safety
and QA checks and are never embarrassed to do the required checks, and
are never embarrassed to have someone check their work. It is part of
the training as I recall.


> If you work on your own wiring, I hope you live alone. I'd hate to see anyone
> else's life jeopardized by your ignorance.

Now now -- jus cause it's true.

> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

No doubt.

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
> and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.

On Sun, 15 May 2005 05:32:39 -0700, "Tim Zimmer" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Is it safe to operate an all alloy housing circular saw. My
>15-year old industrial saw is reliable but the only thing aging
>is the cord. The cord's insulation is cracking and deteriorating.
>Last I'd check the ground wire is open but hidden from view.
>What would be the hazards if I continue to use it?

Either this is a troll or you are a moron. Take your pick.

On Sun, 15 May 2005 05:32:39 -0700, Tim Zimmer wrote:

> Is it safe to operate an all alloy housing circular saw. My
> 15-year old industrial saw is reliable but the only thing aging
> is the cord. The cord's insulation is cracking and deteriorating.
> Last I'd check the ground wire is open but hidden from view.
> What would be the hazards if I continue to use it?
>
> Thanks

The ground protects YOU. Replace the cord and connect the ground. The
bottom line is: How many more years do you wish to do woodworking?

On Sun, 15 May 2005 09:05:54 -0700, Dr.Anton wrote:

> In article <1116159867.dda65d992f7a2135aa9763b69aaf9081@bubbanews>,
> [email protected] says...
>
>> Is it safe to operate an all alloy housing circular saw. My 15-year old
>> industrial saw is reliable but the only thing aging is the cord. The
>> cord's insulation is cracking and deteriorating. Last I'd check the
>> ground wire is open but hidden from view. What would be the hazards if I
>> continue to use it?
>
> You would be risking a fatal electrical shock, should the saw
> develop an internal insulation fault (as it very well could if it's that
> old).
>
> Replace the cord completely. If you lack the requisite skill
> and/or tools to do so properly, you should take the unit to a professional
> repair shop. Any place that repairs power tools should be able to handle
> it.

I'm with Dr. Anton on this one.

Replace the cord.

Cheers!
Rich

On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:46:09 +0000, toller wrote:

>
> "spudnuty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but even
>> with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure grounds to
>> keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and only run
>> your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites I've been
>> on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from workmen
>> bypassing them.
>> Richard
>>
>>
> A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
> contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
> "the other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive
> and unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
> impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.
> Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from 4000v or higher.
>
> Accordingly, I am wondering about those fatal accidents you have studied.
> If my understanding is incorrect, I certainly want to get it adjusted.
> (no, I do not treat 120v casually; "almost impossible" means it is
> possible...)

When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're
working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V
filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the
4KV plate supply.

"Which one killed you?"

Cheers!
Rich

On Mon, 16 May 2005 03:12:51 +0000, Leon wrote:

>
> "CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Glad I'm not the only one that does that.
>>
>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
>>> that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.
>>>
>>>
> And who says the breaker box was labeled correctly or labeled at all.

That's what voltmeters are for. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

On Sun, 15 May 2005 12:08:58 -0400, George wrote:

>
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:59Khe.270$%[email protected]...
>>
>> A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
>> contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
> "the
>> other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive
>> and unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
>> impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.
>> Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from 4000v or
>> higher.
>>
>> Accordingly, I am wondering about those fatal accidents you have
>> studied. If my understanding is incorrect, I certainly want to get it
>> adjusted.
> (no,
>> I do not treat 120v casually; "almost impossible" means it is
>> possible...)
>>
>>
>>
> Your heart operates on considerably less potential. You're betting that
> the jolt won't find the proper pathway to interfere or stop it? Foolish
> wager.
>
> Two in my experience on 120 Volts, but that's 50% of electrocution
> fatalities I've had.

When I was an electronics tech in the US Air Force, one of the stories
that circulated was some guy who killed himself with a PSM-6 VOM. They
come with sets of different probes, one of which is needle-sharp. It
seems he wanted to measure his body resistance, so he took a probe in
each hand and punctured his thumbs. Oh, yeah - on the higher-resistance
ranges, that meter uses a 9- or 12-volt battery. Poking through his
skin to the wet parts let more than 15 mA go through his heart. I
don't know how to find out if this was true or just a scare story.
We also were required to take off all rings and watches, and it
was strongly recommended to put one hand in your pocket.

There was also the UL about the guy who ohmed out the igniter on
an AIM-7 or AIM-9 missile, and the fins cut off both of his hands.

Cheers!
Rich

On Sun, 15 May 2005 12:07:53 -0400, Norman D. Crow wrote:
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> "spudnuty" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>>> It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but
>>> even with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure
>>> grounds to keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and
>>> only run your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites
>>> I've been on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from
>>> workmen bypassing them.
>>> Richard
>>>
>> A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
>> contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
>> "the other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be
>> alive and unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is
>> almost impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal
>> circumstances. Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from
>> 4000v or higher.
>
> IT ISN'T THE VOLTAGE! When I was in USN, they had studies showing deaths
> from relatively low voltages. It's the amps, or more precisely the
> milliamps, and where they travel. A certain milliamp current can be lethal
> if it passes through the heart/chest area because it will cause the heart
> to go into fibrillation, while a relatively high current may just cause
> the heart to stop, but once it is removed the heart will restart on it's
> own. I don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
> 90-100 milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.

It's a common myth that a defribrillator (like you see on TeeVee, when
they go "CLEAR!" and zap the guy) "jump-starts" the patient's heart. It
actually does the opposite. The heart is in fibrillation, and the jolt
from the defibrillator causes the heart to cramp up momentarily, stopping
the fibrillation. That is, it actually kills the guy. But an otherwise
relatively normal heart will restart itself spontaneously, as you've noted.

Cheers!
Rich

On Mon, 16 May 2005 14:49:00 +0000, BobS wrote:

> information once in awhile instead of alway's arguing a point.

There is no apostrophe in the word "always".
--
Rich Grise, Self-Appointed Chief,
Apostrophe Police

On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote:

>
> "Rich Grise" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're
>> working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V
>> filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the
>> 4KV plate supply.
>>
>> "Which one killed you?"
>
> If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~)
>
> If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a
> different body?
>

I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-)

Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while
simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your
eyes.

Where is your finger pointing?

Cheers!
Rich

On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:34:07 -0400, Robatoy wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
>
>> In fact, I do more than that: I plug my tester into something that I'm
>> sure *is* live, to make sure it lights up when it's supposed to, before
>> using on something that I believe to be not live.
>
> That's exactly the same thing I do. I don't even trust voltmeters or
> testers. I want to see them work first. THAT is how electricity is
> handled.

I read something in one of those "home handyman" articles about when
you're working on the wiring in, say, a bedroom, but the breaker
panel is in the basement, and not labeled well. You get a line-
operated radio, and plug it in in the room you want to deenergize,
and turn it up loud enough so you can hear it from the basement.
Switch off the breakers one at a time, and when you've got the
right one, the radio will quit. If any given breaker doesn't turn
off the radio, you can turn it back on so you can still see your
way up the stairs, of course. :-)

Cheers!
Rich

On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:33:16 +0000, Don Bruder wrote:

> Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
> slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
> proven otherwise."

The guy that taught me to shoot had this maxim:

"On a range, loaded guns don't kill people. Only unloaded ones"

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)

On Sat, 21 May 2005 15:14:50 +0100, Fred Abse wrote:

> On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:33:16 +0000, Don Bruder wrote:
>
>> Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
>> slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
>> proven otherwise."
>
> The guy that taught me to shoot had this maxim:
>
> "On a range, loaded guns don't kill people. Only unloaded ones"

Whoever said "guns don't kill people" was full of shit. Of course
they do, that's what they're for.

The problem is stupid people and the governments that they elect
killing the _wrong_ people.

Thanks,
Rich

On Sat, 21 May 2005 04:22:02 +0000, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

> Don Klipstein wrote:
>>
>> In article <[email protected]>, Don Bruder wrote:
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> > LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
>> >> and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.
>> >
>> >Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
>> >slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
>> >proven otherwise."
>> >
>> >If there's even the slightest doubt that a pair of wires might be hot,
>> >then *THEY ARE* until proven otherwise.
>> >
>> >Any other assumption in either case is stupidity on a scale you only
>> >read newspaper articles about. Usually articles ending "Services will be
>> >provided by <insert name> funeral home."
>>
>> I have been told there are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many who
>> were both. My father said the same thing about electricians.
>>
>> - Don Klipstein ([email protected])
>
> No, but I've met a few who were "Moldy oldie electricians". ;-)

They check for live circuits with the back of their hand, so that
when they clench, it's away from the conductor. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

Glad I'm not the only one that does that.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
> that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.
>

"Nog" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Norman D. Crow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:59Khe.270$%[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "spudnuty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but
>>>> even with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure
>>>> grounds to keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and
>>>> only run your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites
>>>> I've been on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from
>>>> workmen bypassing them.
>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>
>>> A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
>>> contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
>>> "the other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be
>>> alive and unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is
>>> almost impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal
>>> circumstances. Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from
>>> 4000v or higher.
>>>
>>
>>
>> IT ISN'T THE VOLTAGE! When I was in USN, they had studies showing deaths
>> from relatively low voltages. It's the amps, or more precisely the
>> milliamps, and where they travel. A certain milliamp current can be
>> lethal if it passes through the heart/chest area because it will cause
>> the heart to go into fibrillation, while a relatively high current may
>> just cause the heart to stop, but once it is removed the heart will
>> restart on it's own. I don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like
>> it was around the 90-100 milliamp range that was lethal due to causing
>> fibrillation.
>>
>> --
>> Nahmie
>> The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.
>
> In low voltage the injuries are not usually from the electricity but the
> secondary reaction. If you are on a ladder and have an electrical induced
> muscle contraction it can throw you off the ladder killing you when you
> hit the ground. Likewise if you are holding a screwdriver, you might stab
> yourself in the eye/brain. (has happened) You could twitch and drill a
> hole in your leg. If it's an electric chain saw .....Did you ever see a
> chain saw injury? It gets right to the arteries and you bleed to death
> fast.
> So a properly grounded power tool is safer and a GFI plug is better.
>
Even I can't argue with that...
I just get annoyed by the guys warning about the dangers of electrocution.

On Mon, 16 May 2005 21:12:21 GMT, David Harmon <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The dorm cafeteria where I went to college had toasters that ran on
>220V. I really used to cringe when I saw people stick forks into them
>to retrieve stuck pieces of toast. I guess that is routine in the UK
>though.

It's hardly _routine_ to stick forks into live toasters. Few people do
it more than once.

(Actually it's pretty safe. Only a real moron does it when they're hot
and when the power is off, the elements are isolated. Toaster makers
_know_ that there will be fools poking Darwin's Fork where they
shouldn't, and they do try to take account of this)


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

On Sun, 15 May 2005 05:32:39 -0700, "Tim Zimmer" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>What would be the hazards if I continue to use it?

We'll all laugh at your funeral when they bury you in a cardboard box
for being a skinflint.

It's a fecking power cable. Coupel of bucks most, even for good quality
cable, and a few minutes job to fix. I have sympathy for people who get
hurt from damaged cables by accident (this is why workshop tools should
be tested and inspected, not just ignored) but to _know_ that it's a bad
cable and to carry on using it is just pikey.

So you're saying that toller's "research" had a few holes in it? Imagine my
surprise.

In article <[email protected]>, Benoit
EVANS <[email protected]> wrote:

>In home accidents in the U.S., one death in every hundred is the result
>of an electrical shock from 110 or 220 volt sources.
>
>Injuries from electric shock account for about 1000 deaths annually in
>the United States and comprise about 5% of admissions to burn centres.
>More than 60% of reported electrical injuries are due to electrocution
>with 110- or 220-V current and most commonly result from failure to
>ground tools or appliances properly or from using electrical devices
>near water. Electrocution is the fifth leading cause of fatal
>occupational injuries in the United States; 1% of household accidental
>deaths are caused by electrical injuries.
>
>The spectrum of clinical injury from accidental electrical shock ranges
>from a transient unpleasant sensation after exposure to low-intensity
>current to sudden death due to cardiac arrest. Clinical manifestations
>are sometimes seen immediately after contact, but might not become
>apparent until several hours after injury.
>
>Source: Fish R. "Electric Shock. Part I: physics and pathophysiology",
>Journal of Emergency Medicine, 1993, vol. 11, pp. 309-12.
>
>
>

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Glad I'm not the only one that does that.
>>
>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
>>> that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.
>>>
>
>And who says the breaker box was labeled correctly or labeled at all.
>
Good point. My breaker box and subpanels are labelled correctly *now*, but
they sure weren't when we bought this house. At least a *few* of them were
labelled, and most of those correctly - the two previous houses had *nothing*
labelled.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In <[email protected]>,"toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
> > milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
> >
> You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult
> to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
> Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
> everything!

A few problems with this:

1. Perspiration is salty. A sweaty hand on a metal power tool could have
resistance down to about 1k ohms or so.

2. Electric shock can stimulate sweat glands.

3. Electric shock at a few 10's of mA or maybe around 10 mA can stimulate
muscles and cause you to involuntarily grip what is shocking you.

4. Most sources say 100-1,000 mA is a range of current that is likely to
cause ventricular fibrillation, with a few saying this deadly range
starts at 50 mA. (Also a few sources make the upper limit of this
"most deadly range" lower.)
The changes of death do not decrease to zero at 99 or 49 mA. I have
heard of electrocution by 30 mA from a neon sign transformer, although
people *usually* survive this.

5. Electrocution is unreliable. With electric chairs, they use enough
current to either:

* Cook vital organs
* Paralyze breathing muscles long enough to deprive the brain of
oxygen to the point that breathing will not restart when the
shock ends

Lack of electrocution is simularly unreliable.

6. The low fatality rate of 110-120V shocks lulls people into a false
sense of security that leads to this voltage achieving a body count.
On US Navy ships, most power circuits are 440V rather than 110V, and
most electrocution deaths are from 110V. (Another factor could be
that lights and ordinary outlets - where exposure to less-trained
people is greater than that of 440V stuff - are 110V.) (Yes, US
Navy ships have 110V at least nominally rather than 120V.)

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

In article <[email protected]>, Don Bruder wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> LRod <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
>> and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.
>
>Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
>slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
>proven otherwise."
>
>If there's even the slightest doubt that a pair of wires might be hot,
>then *THEY ARE* until proven otherwise.
>
>Any other assumption in either case is stupidity on a scale you only
>read newspaper articles about. Usually articles ending "Services will be
>provided by <insert name> funeral home."

I have been told there are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many who
were both. My father said the same thing about electricians.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> > don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
>> > 90-100
>> > milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
>> >
>> You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is
>> difficult
>> to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
>> Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
>> everything!
>
> Where do you get this ? You state this stuff as fact? Do you have ANY
> idea how irresponsible you are?
>
Any electrical book. Ever read one?
Electricians used to test for hot wires by touching it; a little tingle and
it was hot. Thats all it is, a little tingle. Certainly not a recommended
method with modern test equipment available, but not all that dangerous
since they used to get plenty of tingles.
Measure your resistance,and then figure out the associated current. It is a
lot closer to 0ma than to 100ma.

Ya know.... this "Robatoy" is sounding more an more like a troll everyday
and appears to have an answer for everything. Not that they're always
correct answers - but he always seem to have one. From Net Nanny to now an
electrical safety expert....hmmmm... gotta wonder. Troll maybe...?

He's about bad mouthed everyone here and sure has one pissy attitude if
anyone conradicts his words of wisdom. I'm on his plonk list anyway so he
won't read this but it sure would be nice if he could provide some useful
information once in awhile instead of alway's arguing a point.

Make the correction if someone makes a mistake in a posting and get on with
life - your whinning is getting real old.

Now back to your regularly scheduled bitchin 'n moaning,


Bob S.

In article <59Khe.270$%[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:

>A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
>contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought "the
>other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive and
>unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
>impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.

Once again demonstrating that you have _no_business_ giving electrical advice
to anyone. _Of_course_ it's almost impossible to get a lethal shock under
"normal circumstances" because "normal circumstances" don't include doing
stupid stuff like putting your hands across a live circuit. It's _abnormal_
circumstances that are dangerous, and it is indeed quite possible to receive a
fatal shock from 120V when something has gone wrong - like installing a stove
with its equipment ground connected to the circuit neutral conductor, as you
recently told someone to do.

And only an idiot would assume that "the other guy" had opened the breaker,
and not check first. Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.

If you work on your own wiring, I hope you live alone. I'd hate to see anyone
else's life jeopardized by your ignorance.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> > don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
>>> > 90-100
>>> > milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.
>>> >
>>> You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is
>>> difficult
>>> to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
>>> Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
>>> everything!
>>
>> Where do you get this ? You state this stuff as fact? Do you have ANY
>> idea how irresponsible you are?
>>
>Any electrical book. Ever read one?
>Electricians used to test for hot wires by touching it; a little tingle and
>it was hot. Thats all it is, a little tingle.

That's right, you ass, just a little tingle IF YOU'RE NOT GROUNDED.

If you *are*, you're risking your life.

Certainly not a recommended
>method with modern test equipment available, but not all that dangerous
>since they used to get plenty of tingles.

You ever hear this saying?
"There's old electricians, and there's bold electricians. But there ain't no
old, bold electricians."

>Measure your resistance,and then figure out the associated current. It is a
>lot closer to 0ma than to 100ma.

So by that "reasoning", ground fault circuit interrupters (which trip at 20ma)
are completely unnecessary. Riiiiiiight.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?