OT: Separate hot and cold valves on kitchen taps save energy.

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 01:17:14 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:05:44 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 13:37:30 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 20:42:09 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>snip
>>>>>Really? They are designed for say a 40 degree rise. While the
>>>>>thermostat could be set for 180 deg F and the High limit at 200 deg G,
>>>>>if the incoming water is only 120 deg F add 40 deg F and the best you
>>>>>will see is 160 and that is not enough to sterilize the dishes and
>>>>>pans. Most domestic dishwashers do not publish the deg rise, but the
>>>>>info is out there. Until people make a fuss it'll never be a big deal.
>>>>
>>>>They may be "designed" for a 40F rise but they will raise the
>>>>temperature to whatever they're "designed" for. They are
>>>>thermostatically controlled.
>>>>>
>>>You might want to check on that, if they are rated for a 40 or
>>>whatever degree rise then that is all that they can do.
>>
>>Thermostats don't measure temperature rise.
>>
>
>They sure don't, but a 40 deg rise with a colder HW supply than called
>for ensures that the water temperature will be too low and the
>thermostat will always be calling for full heat. It could never
>achieve full temperature while operating. 120 deg supply, add 40
>degrees output on a booster heater will only give you a maximum of 160
>deg. If the thermostat was set for 180 it would never be achieved.

Sure it will, or the machine will sit there forever. They will
operate on cold water.
>
>Plus, the 40 deg rise could be rated if the supply HW as a minimum of
>140 and that as the Supply HW decreased so would the minimum
>temperature rise across the booster heater.
>
>I guess I should say that a booster heater has its designed
>limitations, and should be purchased sized according to the needs of
>the facility.

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 01:01:08 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:35:05 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 13:33:12 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 20:39:34 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 12:05:36 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 14:06:35 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:39:28 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:32:51 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:27:30 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 14:39:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On 1/31/2016 2:12 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> krw <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:42:06 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hot water from your WH is hot, and comes from the same place your cold
>>>>>>>>>>>>> water comes from.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't sit in a largish tank at just the right temperature to grow
>>>>>>>>>>>> things, though. ...one reason to not lower the temperature of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> water heater.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Good point. 120F is the standard temperature for good reason, set it
>>>>>>>>>>> there and leave it. Not only does it kill off most nasties in the water,
>>>>>>>>>>> but it also gives a pretty decent run time when you fill the tub or take
>>>>>>>>>>> a shower.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>In my opinion, 120 is too low. You can prevent scalding with the proper
>>>>>>>>>>shower valve though. I just turn it to full on and the temperature is
>>>>>>>>>>fine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>http://www.cashacme.com/resources/hot-water-safety/
>>>>>>>>>>Legionella is an aquatic bacteria that thrives in warm water
>>>>>>>>>>environments, and is the cause of Legionnaires Disease. It is commonly
>>>>>>>>>>found in potable water supplies, hot tubs, cooling towers, fountains,
>>>>>>>>>>swimming pools, etc. and multiplies in warm conditions especially
>>>>>>>>>>between 68 – 122 °F. The Legionella bacteria can spread to humans when
>>>>>>>>>>breathed in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Glad you mentioned this, one thing is consistent in what you described
>>>>>>>>>that is not true about HW heaters, that is that everything you
>>>>>>>>>described is open to the air. Most use the same chemicals for water
>>>>>>>>>treatment which some humans like myself are allergic to in the first
>>>>>>>>>place. Cooling tower chemicals have changed in most places to
>>>>>>>>>different chemicals to help eliminate the problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Yet Legionella is found in closed water heating systems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I have never heard that to be the case, if it was then the disease
>>>>>>>would be consistently high across the nation since you cannot treat it
>>>>>>>there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is. Huh? It's easily treated. Turn up the damned temperature!
>>>>>>;-) It won't survive above 133F, IIRC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The link above is designed to sell ACME Mixing valves, in order for
>>>>>those to do their job properly all the HWS and HWR lines must be
>>>>>insulated along with that you need a recirc pump or you are just
>>>>>wasting money on the mixing valve.
>>>>>
>>>>>You should also not that the disease was contracted via your lungs,
>>>>>not your stomach.
>>>>>
>>>>>In many years of experience in the HVAC commercial and industrial
>>>>>industry I have yet to see any evidence of bacteria in a closed loop
>>>>>system, I have pulled down boilers, HW boosters, heat exchangers of
>>>>>all types and never was their any sign of any growth. Now, that said,
>>>>>once it hits the air and lingers all bets are off. I have seen growth
>>>>>in Hot tubs for general use in Hotels and Motels, Swimming pools,
>>>>>cooling towers of all types. Chlorine is often used to kill it, but
>>>>>especially in cooling towers there are spots where the water pools and
>>>>>flows very little. We also used algaecides or other types, plus they
>>>>>all require constant maintenance, tear down, clean up and repairs if
>>>>>necessary. This is done for a variety of reason, the least of which is
>>>>>any disease.
>>>>>
>>>>>Think about it. Air? Where in your HW tanks is any air? Air stops
>>>>>water flow or lowers the flow depending on where the air is trapped
>>>>>and we used air bleed on lines to eliminate that.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The only thing in a HW heater that might present a problem is a zinc
>>>>>>>>>anode, and many new HW heaters are glass coated to eliminate erosion
>>>>>>>>>and do not use Zinc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>105 deg HW is the safest for those who have diabetes and do not feel
>>>>>>>>>things as they should, 102 for infants to prevent burns and
>>>>>>>>>scalding's, 140 degrees F for dishwashers, so that their booster
>>>>>>>>>heaters can raise the temp high enough (180) to kill germs on dishes
>>>>>>>>>etc. So you can set it where you need it for your best interests, and
>>>>>>>>>if you need to for showers and tubs you can buy thermostatically
>>>>>>>>>controlled mixing valves but that brings up additional needs and
>>>>>>>>>retrofitting costs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>140F at the water heater does not mean 140F at the faucet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, if you have a recirc system or in the normal home if you let the
>>>>>>>water run unmixed, otherwise the Dishwasher would never see it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dishwashers have heaters. It's usually cheaper to let it boost the
>>>>>>temperature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Really? They are designed for say a 40 degree rise. While the
>>>>>thermostat could be set for 180 deg F and the High limit at 200 deg G,
>>>>>if the incoming water is only 120 deg F add 40 deg F and the best you
>>>>>will see is 160 and that is not enough to sterilize the dishes and
>>>>>pans. Most domestic dishwashers do not publish the deg rise, but the
>>>>>info is out there. Until people make a fuss it'll never be a big deal.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Usually the only time you see it is in restaurants for the kitchen
>>>>>>>area's. My home was set that way for years, but we had mixing valves
>>>>>>>at every sink. It is a real problem when one has two separate valves,
>>>>>>>one hot, the other cold and it has to mix in the sink. I don't know
>>>>>>>that it would ever be a viable option in that case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You can mix before the hot faucet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>And it should be.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Our first house (banns second, for that matter) had a domestic water
>>>>>>coil in the furnace ("boiler" that doesn't). Of course the furnace
>>>>>>was set at 180F(+) and it backed right up to the kitchen and the
>>>>>>bathrooms. No mixing valves. The water was *hot*.
>>>>>
>>>>>I'd bet. There's a lot of missing info about that system, was it for
>>>>>HW heating, forced air? A recirc pump between the coil and a storage
>>>>>tank, and so on. Whatever, I'd bet that it was an old house and done
>>>>>properly.
>>>>
>>>>HW heating. The "domestic coil" is a loop inside the boiler used take
>>>>off hot water from the boiler. When the boiler isn't in use, the
>>>>water first coming out of the coil is at the boiler temperature, with
>>>>is 180F +/-19F, IIRC. That house was built in '72, IIRC. Our second
>>>>(same issue but the boiler further from the points of use) was built
>>>>in '86.
>>>
>>>When I read that I see boilers that are quite a bit larger than a
>>>domestic types, but they are high maintenance unless you had a good
>>>water softener or naturally soft water, due to calcium build up in the
>>>coils.
>>
>>NO, they're used for even small homes, too (~100KBTU). Yes. You bet!
>>>
>>>I would have set the set point @ 140 during the summer season to save
>>>a lot on fuel, unless you live in a cold area of the country.
>>
>>That's the usual recommendation. I can't remember why we didn't do
>>it. There was something screwy with the temperature controls on the
>>thing but I don't remember the details.
>>>
>>>Due to efficiency requirements in Calif, there has been a lot of
>>>changes in all types of heating systems.
>>
>>Retroactive? Yeah there is a lot of difference between $.79 oil and
>>$4.50 oil, too. Of course the price is down, now, but it's still
>>worth some work to save.
>
>Yes, retroactive mods. Because of new state laws, and pricing
>regulations, since the state sets certain limits of fuel prices for
>heating etc. boilers over one million BTU's had higher energy costs,
>so we wherever possible re rated the boilers by modifying them, or
>replacing them with high efficiency boilers and the state, feds, and
>gas company's would pay a portion of the costs if they qualified and
>that with the reduced operating costs would ROI in 2 years or less.

More than 1M BTU isn't a residential system. That's a little
different but it's still amazing they were forced upgrades.
>
>We don't have many oil fired systems out here for smaller bldg's. But
>there were a lot of gas/oil fired boilers for large bldgs, and if
>those were replaced and oil firing done away with, there was a lot of
>savings there as well.

Were they #2 oil systems or #6? Bunker?
>
>When I read of the fluctuating oil prices for the oil used in home
>heating in the east, I am real happy to be out here, plus the thought
>of a snow storm shutting off the supply, {{{{SHUDDER}}}}

A snow storm wouldn't do anything, other than perhaps taking out the
electricity, which would affect any sort of central system. Worst
case, 275 gallons of oil lasted three weeks.

In Vermont we had wood backup. In NY, we got cold (out three days
once). The best solution was moving South, though. ;-) Though we
were out 30 hours during Snowmageddon (2") two years ago.

On Tue, 2 Feb 2016 14:24:41 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2/1/2016 9:40 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Mon, 1 Feb 2016 21:21:42 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/1/2016 8:39 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>
>>>> HW heating. The "domestic coil" is a loop inside the boiler used take
>>>> off hot water from the boiler. When the boiler isn't in use, the
>>>> water first coming out of the coil is at the boiler temperature, with
>>>> is 180F +/-19F, IIRC. That house was built in '72, IIRC. Our second
>>>> (same issue but the boiler further from the points of use) was built
>>>> in '86.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Had the same system in my house. Terribly inefficient. On a hot August
>>> night you'd hear the burner fire up to keep that poorly insulated coil
>>> hot. Replaced the boiler with a more efficient system with an insulated
>>> tank indirect heated and got a 40% decrease in oil use.
>>
>> The advantage is that it keeps the boiler operating in the summer so
>> it doesn't rust. When oil was cheap, it was cheap insurance. Of
>> course I wouldn't have oil heat these days.
>>
>>
>
>That cheap insurance would have cost me over $1000 at last years prices.

Understood. When I owned the house, oil was less than $1/gal. The
"insurance" was something like $50/yr.

> New boiler saves me about 350 gallons a year. I put in an Energy
>Kinetics System 2000.
>
>I'd switch from oil if I had a good alternative. Gas is too far away,
>propane is no better.

Our second house (in Vermont), we had switched from oil to natural
gas, not because of cost. Our houses since have been electric/heat
pump. Our current system will probably have to be replaced in the
next few years. :-(

On 6/18/2011 9:30 AM, Bruce wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:20:18 -0600, Swingman wrote
> (in article<[email protected]>):
>
>> http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml
>
> I have some experience with the hot water dispensers.
> These things are great for getting that hot cup of tea or what ever without
> using the microwave. The one I personally have is connected to the output of
> our RO water system.

This particular faucet fixture is hooked up to both an InstaHot (?), and
chilled water unit.

On a custom job I don't buy the appliances, I just build the kitchens
and supervise installation of the clients choice in hardware and fixtures.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:20:18 -0600, Swingman wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

> http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml

I have some experience with the hot water dispensers.
These things are great for getting that hot cup of tea or what ever without
using the microwave. The one I personally have is connected to the output of
our RO water system.

Avoid any units where the tank is connected directly to the dispensing valve
(generally the cheapest ones available). The one I first installed and those
installed by several others locally all have died horrible deaths within a
year or two. Usually the valve explodes or the tank thermostat dies. They
also have the tendency to spit hot water regardless of where the temperature
is set.

The preferred units have a remote (1-2+ quart) tank which is better
insulated and generally of higher quality. Pay attention to the valve. More
money spent here means less plastic. Our current Kitchen-Aid unit (about
$300) is the cats meow.

At my day job, they use the cheap in-sink-erator types in the kitchens and
they last about 6 months before breaking. Either they have a large stock of
these or some kind of contract because they keep buying them...

As to the hot water loop, the only solution I see that really works without
wasting lots of power is to install a water heater (5 gallon or so) at the
sink. The trick is to have this fed from the hot water line so by the time
the tank is running low on heat, the 'real' hot water has begun to arrive.
You need to consider the energy used and compare that with the recirculating
pump approach and also consider that this only works at a single point
whereas the recirculator can cover a whole house.
$0.02

-Bruce

On Jun 18, 10:30=A0am, Bruce <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:20:18 -0600, Swingman wrote
> (in article <[email protected]>):
>
> >http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml
>
> I have some experience with the hot water dispensers.
> These things are great for getting that hot cup of tea or what ever witho=
ut
> using the microwave. The one I personally have is connected to the output=
of
> our RO water system.
>
> Avoid any units where the tank is connected directly to the dispensing va=
lve
> (generally the cheapest ones available). The one I first installed and th=
ose
> installed by several others locally all have died horrible deaths within =
a
> year or two. Usually the valve explodes or the tank thermostat dies. They
> also have the tendency to spit hot water regardless of where the temperat=
ure
> is set.
>
> The preferred =A0units have a remote (1-2+ quart) tank which is better
> insulated and generally of higher quality. Pay attention to the valve. Mo=
re
> money spent here means less plastic. Our current Kitchen-Aid unit (about
> $300) is the cats meow.
>
> At my day job, they use the cheap in-sink-erator types in the kitchens an=
d
> they last about 6 months before breaking. Either they have a large stock =
of
> these or some kind of contract because they keep buying them...
>
> As to the hot water loop, the only solution I see that really works witho=
ut
> wasting lots of power is to install a water heater (5 gallon or so) at th=
e
> sink. The trick is to have this fed from the hot water line so by the tim=
e
> the tank is running low on heat, the 'real' hot water has begun to arrive=
.
> You need to consider the energy used and compare that with the recirculat=
ing
> pump approach and also consider that this only works at a single point
> whereas the recirculator can cover a whole house.
> $0.02
>
> -Bruce

Back in 1955 somebody was thinking because the 40 gallon hot water
tank is directly, and I mean directly below the main bathroom. That
particular bathroom sink has, what I would call, instant hot water...
so does the tub and shower.
Now the kitchen, on the other hand, is at the opposite end of the
house. Maybe they weren't thinking that day? <G>

John G <[email protected]> wrote:
> Circulating pumps would seem to defeat any effort to reduce power usage
> as they keep sending hot water around the loop to cool and then be
> reheated even when there is no usage so instead of wasting one pipe full
> of cold water that heat is being lost all the time.

There's a device called the 'hot chillie' which, when the hot water tap is
turned on, pumps it back through the cold water line until it's up to
temperature. It's only for a single tap but is a neat idea for long runs.

On 6/17/2011 9:11 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

> I don't understand. When the hot water faucet is turned on, that water
> comes out the tap. The cold water faucet isn't open. What does the
> pump send back? And if something's being sent back in the cold pipe,
> what happens if both are opened for some strange reason, like warm
> water? Or does this only work down there?

Just installed one of these in the last kitchen we built:

http://www.insinkerator.com/dispensers/index.shtml

Pretty cool ... or hot, whichever you desire!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article <[email protected]>,
Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:52:58 GMT, scatter
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>There's a device called the 'hot chillie' which, when the hot water tap is
>>turned on, pumps it back through the cold water line until it's up to
>>temperature. It's only for a single tap but is a neat idea for long runs.
>
>I don't understand. When the hot water faucet is turned on, that water
>comes out the tap. The cold water faucet isn't open. What does the
>pump send back? And if something's being sent back in the cold pipe,
>what happens if both are opened for some strange reason, like warm
>water? Or does this only work down there?
>

It sounds like a _pump_ connected from the hot line, to the cold line.
=before= they get to the faucet/valves.

On a pressure drop in the hot line (when the faucet is opened), the
pump turns on and draws water out of the hot line, forcing it into the
cold one. More-or-less making the cold water line the 'return' of a
recirculating hot-water system.

When the _water_temperature_ coming into the pump rises to a threshold
value, the pump shuts off.

In a 'simple' installation, this will get hot water to a 'slightly open'
faucet as quickly as if the faucet was turned 'all the way on'.

If there is an 'anti-backflow valve' installed between the pump intake and
the faucet valve, then one can use a bigger pump -- one that pulls a net
suction on the hot-water supply, and thus moves the water faster than a
full-open faucet would. This, however, leads to the 'counter-intuitive'
situation of turning on the hot water, and more-or-less _nothing_ comes
out until the water is up to temperature.

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:52:58 GMT, scatter
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John G <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Circulating pumps would seem to defeat any effort to reduce power usage
>> as they keep sending hot water around the loop to cool and then be
>> reheated even when there is no usage so instead of wasting one pipe full
>> of cold water that heat is being lost all the time.
>
>There's a device called the 'hot chillie' which, when the hot water tap is
>turned on, pumps it back through the cold water line until it's up to
>temperature. It's only for a single tap but is a neat idea for long runs.

I don't understand. When the hot water faucet is turned on, that water
comes out the tap. The cold water faucet isn't open. What does the
pump send back? And if something's being sent back in the cold pipe,
what happens if both are opened for some strange reason, like warm
water? Or does this only work down there?

I watched the movie _Australia_ last night and it was fantastic. Tears
in me eyes and all that. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0455824/

--
Happiness is when what you think, what
you say, and what you do are in harmony.
-- Mahatma Gandhi

On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 12:05:36 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 14:06:35 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:39:28 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:32:51 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:27:30 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 14:39:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 1/31/2016 2:12 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>>>>> krw <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:42:06 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hot water from your WH is hot, and comes from the same place your cold
>>>>>>>>> water comes from.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't sit in a largish tank at just the right temperature to grow
>>>>>>>> things, though. ...one reason to not lower the temperature of the
>>>>>>>> water heater.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good point. 120F is the standard temperature for good reason, set it
>>>>>>> there and leave it. Not only does it kill off most nasties in the water,
>>>>>>> but it also gives a pretty decent run time when you fill the tub or take
>>>>>>> a shower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In my opinion, 120 is too low. You can prevent scalding with the proper
>>>>>>shower valve though. I just turn it to full on and the temperature is
>>>>>>fine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.cashacme.com/resources/hot-water-safety/
>>>>>>Legionella is an aquatic bacteria that thrives in warm water
>>>>>>environments, and is the cause of Legionnaires Disease. It is commonly
>>>>>>found in potable water supplies, hot tubs, cooling towers, fountains,
>>>>>>swimming pools, etc. and multiplies in warm conditions especially
>>>>>>between 68 – 122 °F. The Legionella bacteria can spread to humans when
>>>>>>breathed in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Glad you mentioned this, one thing is consistent in what you described
>>>>>that is not true about HW heaters, that is that everything you
>>>>>described is open to the air. Most use the same chemicals for water
>>>>>treatment which some humans like myself are allergic to in the first
>>>>>place. Cooling tower chemicals have changed in most places to
>>>>>different chemicals to help eliminate the problem.
>>>>
>>>>Yet Legionella is found in closed water heating systems.
>>>
>>>I have never heard that to be the case, if it was then the disease
>>>would be consistently high across the nation since you cannot treat it
>>>there.
>>
>>It is. Huh? It's easily treated. Turn up the damned temperature!
>>;-) It won't survive above 133F, IIRC.
>>
>
>The link above is designed to sell ACME Mixing valves, in order for
>those to do their job properly all the HWS and HWR lines must be
>insulated along with that you need a recirc pump or you are just
>wasting money on the mixing valve.
>
>You should also not that the disease was contracted via your lungs,
>not your stomach.
>
>In many years of experience in the HVAC commercial and industrial
>industry I have yet to see any evidence of bacteria in a closed loop
>system, I have pulled down boilers, HW boosters, heat exchangers of
>all types and never was their any sign of any growth. Now, that said,
>once it hits the air and lingers all bets are off. I have seen growth
>in Hot tubs for general use in Hotels and Motels, Swimming pools,
>cooling towers of all types. Chlorine is often used to kill it, but
>especially in cooling towers there are spots where the water pools and
>flows very little. We also used algaecides or other types, plus they
>all require constant maintenance, tear down, clean up and repairs if
>necessary. This is done for a variety of reason, the least of which is
>any disease.
>
>Think about it. Air? Where in your HW tanks is any air? Air stops
>water flow or lowers the flow depending on where the air is trapped
>and we used air bleed on lines to eliminate that.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The only thing in a HW heater that might present a problem is a zinc
>>>>>anode, and many new HW heaters are glass coated to eliminate erosion
>>>>>and do not use Zinc.
>>>>>
>>>>>105 deg HW is the safest for those who have diabetes and do not feel
>>>>>things as they should, 102 for infants to prevent burns and
>>>>>scalding's, 140 degrees F for dishwashers, so that their booster
>>>>>heaters can raise the temp high enough (180) to kill germs on dishes
>>>>>etc. So you can set it where you need it for your best interests, and
>>>>>if you need to for showers and tubs you can buy thermostatically
>>>>>controlled mixing valves but that brings up additional needs and
>>>>>retrofitting costs.
>>>>
>>>>140F at the water heater does not mean 140F at the faucet.
>>>
>>>Yes, if you have a recirc system or in the normal home if you let the
>>>water run unmixed, otherwise the Dishwasher would never see it.
>>
>>Dishwashers have heaters. It's usually cheaper to let it boost the
>>temperature.
>>
>
>Really? They are designed for say a 40 degree rise. While the
>thermostat could be set for 180 deg F and the High limit at 200 deg G,
>if the incoming water is only 120 deg F add 40 deg F and the best you
>will see is 160 and that is not enough to sterilize the dishes and
>pans. Most domestic dishwashers do not publish the deg rise, but the
>info is out there. Until people make a fuss it'll never be a big deal.
>
>>>Usually the only time you see it is in restaurants for the kitchen
>>>area's. My home was set that way for years, but we had mixing valves
>>>at every sink. It is a real problem when one has two separate valves,
>>>one hot, the other cold and it has to mix in the sink. I don't know
>>>that it would ever be a viable option in that case.
>>
>>You can mix before the hot faucet.
>>
>
>And it should be.
>
>>Our first house (banns second, for that matter) had a domestic water
>>coil in the furnace ("boiler" that doesn't). Of course the furnace
>>was set at 180F(+) and it backed right up to the kitchen and the
>>bathrooms. No mixing valves. The water was *hot*.
>
>I'd bet. There's a lot of missing info about that system, was it for
>HW heating, forced air? A recirc pump between the coil and a storage
>tank, and so on. Whatever, I'd bet that it was an old house and done
>properly.

HW heating. The "domestic coil" is a loop inside the boiler used take
off hot water from the boiler. When the boiler isn't in use, the
water first coming out of the coil is at the boiler temperature, with
is 180F +/-19F, IIRC. That house was built in '72, IIRC. Our second
(same issue but the boiler further from the points of use) was built
in '86.

On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 12:05:36 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 14:06:35 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:39:28 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:32:51 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:27:30 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 14:39:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 1/31/2016 2:12 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>>>>> krw <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:42:06 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hot water from your WH is hot, and comes from the same place your cold
>>>>>>>>> water comes from.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't sit in a largish tank at just the right temperature to grow
>>>>>>>> things, though. ...one reason to not lower the temperature of the
>>>>>>>> water heater.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good point. 120F is the standard temperature for good reason, set it
>>>>>>> there and leave it. Not only does it kill off most nasties in the water,
>>>>>>> but it also gives a pretty decent run time when you fill the tub or take
>>>>>>> a shower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In my opinion, 120 is too low. You can prevent scalding with the proper
>>>>>>shower valve though. I just turn it to full on and the temperature is
>>>>>>fine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.cashacme.com/resources/hot-water-safety/
>>>>>>Legionella is an aquatic bacteria that thrives in warm water
>>>>>>environments, and is the cause of Legionnaires Disease. It is commonly
>>>>>>found in potable water supplies, hot tubs, cooling towers, fountains,
>>>>>>swimming pools, etc. and multiplies in warm conditions especially
>>>>>>between 68 – 122 °F. The Legionella bacteria can spread to humans when
>>>>>>breathed in.
>>>>>
>>>>>Glad you mentioned this, one thing is consistent in what you described
>>>>>that is not true about HW heaters, that is that everything you
>>>>>described is open to the air. Most use the same chemicals for water
>>>>>treatment which some humans like myself are allergic to in the first
>>>>>place. Cooling tower chemicals have changed in most places to
>>>>>different chemicals to help eliminate the problem.
>>>>
>>>>Yet Legionella is found in closed water heating systems.
>>>
>>>I have never heard that to be the case, if it was then the disease
>>>would be consistently high across the nation since you cannot treat it
>>>there.
>>
>>It is. Huh? It's easily treated. Turn up the damned temperature!
>>;-) It won't survive above 133F, IIRC.
>>
>
>The link above is designed to sell ACME Mixing valves, in order for
>those to do their job properly all the HWS and HWR lines must be
>insulated along with that you need a recirc pump or you are just
>wasting money on the mixing valve.
>
>You should also not that the disease was contracted via your lungs,
>not your stomach.
>
>In many years of experience in the HVAC commercial and industrial
>industry I have yet to see any evidence of bacteria in a closed loop
>system, I have pulled down boilers, HW boosters, heat exchangers of
>all types and never was their any sign of any growth. Now, that said,
>once it hits the air and lingers all bets are off. I have seen growth
>in Hot tubs for general use in Hotels and Motels, Swimming pools,
>cooling towers of all types. Chlorine is often used to kill it, but
>especially in cooling towers there are spots where the water pools and
>flows very little. We also used algaecides or other types, plus they
>all require constant maintenance, tear down, clean up and repairs if
>necessary. This is done for a variety of reason, the least of which is
>any disease.
>
>Think about it. Air? Where in your HW tanks is any air? Air stops
>water flow or lowers the flow depending on where the air is trapped
>and we used air bleed on lines to eliminate that.
>
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The only thing in a HW heater that might present a problem is a zinc
>>>>>anode, and many new HW heaters are glass coated to eliminate erosion
>>>>>and do not use Zinc.
>>>>>
>>>>>105 deg HW is the safest for those who have diabetes and do not feel
>>>>>things as they should, 102 for infants to prevent burns and
>>>>>scalding's, 140 degrees F for dishwashers, so that their booster
>>>>>heaters can raise the temp high enough (180) to kill germs on dishes
>>>>>etc. So you can set it where you need it for your best interests, and
>>>>>if you need to for showers and tubs you can buy thermostatically
>>>>>controlled mixing valves but that brings up additional needs and
>>>>>retrofitting costs.
>>>>
>>>>140F at the water heater does not mean 140F at the faucet.
>>>
>>>Yes, if you have a recirc system or in the normal home if you let the
>>>water run unmixed, otherwise the Dishwasher would never see it.
>>
>>Dishwashers have heaters. It's usually cheaper to let it boost the
>>temperature.
>>
>
>Really? They are designed for say a 40 degree rise. While the
>thermostat could be set for 180 deg F and the High limit at 200 deg G,
>if the incoming water is only 120 deg F add 40 deg F and the best you
>will see is 160 and that is not enough to sterilize the dishes and
>pans. Most domestic dishwashers do not publish the deg rise, but the
>info is out there. Until people make a fuss it'll never be a big deal.

They may be "designed" for a 40F rise but they will raise the
temperature to whatever they're "designed" for. They are
thermostatically controlled.
>

OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>If I were to install one I would up it in size to the next largest
>>>>>diameter and use bell reducers on both ends to eliminate any problems.
>>>>>Side effect would be an increase of electrical resistance, a bonus.
>>
>>3/4" Camco dielectric nipple I.D. 0.75 in
>>3/4" type M copper pipe I.D. 0.811 in
>>Difference .061 or ~3/50 in
>>
>>So by all means, you go ahead and "use bell reducers on both ends to
>>eliminate any problems".
>>
>
>If I remembered correctly I stated to upsize the nipple to the next
>piping size to eliminate the restriction flow, and use bell reducers
>to install it into your installed piping size. That would mean use a
>1" nipple on a 3/4" piping system.

And except for wasting money, you will have accomplished absolutely
nothing by doing that. You really don't get it do you?

Dielectric unions/nipples are used to prevent two *dissimilar*
metals from contacting each other where water is present. By you
connecting a *steel* 1" dielectric nipple between 2 *steel* bell
reducers you've accomplished absolutely nothing (except look foolish).

HTH

On 2/1/2016 8:39 PM, krw wrote:
>
> HW heating. The "domestic coil" is a loop inside the boiler used take
> off hot water from the boiler. When the boiler isn't in use, the
> water first coming out of the coil is at the boiler temperature, with
> is 180F +/-19F, IIRC. That house was built in '72, IIRC. Our second
> (same issue but the boiler further from the points of use) was built
> in '86.
>

Had the same system in my house. Terribly inefficient. On a hot August
night you'd hear the burner fire up to keep that poorly insulated coil
hot. Replaced the boiler with a more efficient system with an insulated
tank indirect heated and got a 40% decrease in oil use.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 19:54:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 8, 10:22 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
>> is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.
>>
>> I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
>> No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.
>>
>
>You have my vote. Besides I have seen some excellent trends in rock
>and shrubbery projects replacing lawns.
>Many of those are because the Province has outlawed weedkiller
>fertilizers.

Can you still use RoundUp or weed killer sprays? It's fertilizers I'd
have banned, were I King. Maybe it's because the weed'n'feed crap
doesn't work well at killing anything that they outlawed it. Nitrogen
runoff from those things is causing algae bloom everywhere.

I'm waiting for my copy of my sister's friend's book about doing away
with lawns. I don't know if it's published yet. Until then, I have a
copy of _The Wild Lawn Handbook_.


>Thank goodness we're still allowed our banana trees.

Yeah, where would you be without those dear things?


This just in from email:


WORLD SURVEY BY PHONE

Last month a world-wide survey was conducted by the UN.

It had one question: "Would you please give your honest opinion
about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?"

The survey was a huge failure because of the following:

1. In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.

2. In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.

3. In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.

4. In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.

5. In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.

6. In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.

7. In the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant.

8. In UK they hung up as soon as they heard the Indian accent.

--
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
--anon

=========
Wife and I both had a good laugh over that one!

--

Eric

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 19:54:38 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 8, 10:22 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
>> is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.
>>
>> I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
>> No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.
>>
>
>You have my vote. Besides I have seen some excellent trends in rock
>and shrubbery projects replacing lawns.
>Many of those are because the Province has outlawed weedkiller
>fertilizers.

Can you still use RoundUp or weed killer sprays? It's fertilizers I'd
have banned, were I King. Maybe it's because the weed'n'feed crap
doesn't work well at killing anything that they outlawed it. Nitrogen
runoff from those things is causing algae bloom everywhere.

I'm waiting for my copy of my sister's friend's book about doing away
with lawns. I don't know if it's published yet. Until then, I have a
copy of _The Wild Lawn Handbook_.


>Thank goodness we're still allowed our banana trees.

Yeah, where would you be without those dear things?


This just in from email:


WORLD SURVEY BY PHONE

Last month a world-wide survey was conducted by the UN.

It had one question: "Would you please give your honest opinion
about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?"

The survey was a huge failure because of the following:

1. In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.

2. In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.

3. In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.

4. In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.

5. In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.

6. In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.

7. In the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant.

8. In UK they hung up as soon as they heard the Indian accent.

--
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
--anon

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 22:42:44 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
>> No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.
>
>No more... well, you know... out in the back lawn on a warm summer night?
>That sucks!

Oh, hell. The new back lawn is an indoor/outdoor environmental area
with queen-size, ergonomic, adjustable patio bed under a removable
cover. No more bugs, itches, or grass up your/her, um, you know.

If you MUST have grass, install a king-size piece of astro turf on the
deck, Mike.

But where's your sense of adventure, duuuuuuuuude? Haven't you ever
tried it in a hammock? For the less adventurous, there's the floating
bed: http://www.floatingbed.com/products/outdoor-beds#8

KEEP OFF THE GRASS!

--
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
--anon

On Fri, 05 Feb 2016 05:02:45 +0000, Spalted Walt
<[email protected]> wrote:

>OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>>> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>>If I were to install one I would up it in size to the next largest
>>>>>>diameter and use bell reducers on both ends to eliminate any problems.
>>>>>>Side effect would be an increase of electrical resistance, a bonus.
>>>
>>>3/4" Camco dielectric nipple I.D. 0.75 in
>>>3/4" type M copper pipe I.D. 0.811 in
>>>Difference .061 or ~3/50 in
>>>
>>>So by all means, you go ahead and "use bell reducers on both ends to
>>>eliminate any problems".
>>>
>>
>>If I remembered correctly I stated to upsize the nipple to the next
>>piping size to eliminate the restriction flow, and use bell reducers
>>to install it into your installed piping size. That would mean use a
>>1" nipple on a 3/4" piping system.
>
>And except for wasting money, you will have accomplished absolutely
>nothing by doing that. You really don't get it do you?
>
>Dielectric unions/nipples are used to prevent two *dissimilar*
>metals from contacting each other where water is present. By you
>connecting a *steel* 1" dielectric nipple between 2 *steel* bell
>reducers you've accomplished absolutely nothing (except look foolish).
>
>HTH

What you do not get is how pipe size reduction affects flow no matter
what the fluid or gas is that is inside.

I have already proven it years ago on site, only an idiot would
introduce a restriction into a piping system. No matter what the total
size of the job is.

Is there a chance that the restriction will not bother anything? Yes,
on small systems with low water consumption.

But, if the journeyman is worth his salt he would not take a chance
knowing the problems that can arise and just do the job correctly.

Those pictures of the plumbing at your house is a good example of poor
water flow. Every 90 degree angle reduces the water flow by the
equivalent of 10 feet of straight piping. 45 degree elbows equal 5
feet of piping. Which is why long radius 90 degree elbows are made.

Yes, piping is part of the HVAC trade and you can get knowledgeable
people and you can get backyard mechanics with no training and little
experience.

Oh, and by the way, not all bell reducers are made from the same
materials.

By the way, you would do well to look for a good plumbing contractor
based on your pictures, with all those joints in the plumbing and you
are concerned about one size increase on a dielectric nipple?

OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 05 Feb 2016 05:02:45 +0000, Spalted Walt
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>>>If I were to install one I would up it in size to the next largest
>>>>>>>diameter and use bell reducers on both ends to eliminate any problems.
>>>>>>>Side effect would be an increase of electrical resistance, a bonus.
>>>>
>>>>3/4" Camco dielectric nipple I.D. 0.75 in
>>>>3/4" type M copper pipe I.D. 0.811 in
>>>>Difference .061 or ~3/50 in
>>>>
>>>>So by all means, you go ahead and "use bell reducers on both ends to
>>>>eliminate any problems".
>>>>
>>>
>>>If I remembered correctly I stated to upsize the nipple to the next
>>>piping size to eliminate the restriction flow, and use bell reducers
>>>to install it into your installed piping size. That would mean use a
>>>1" nipple on a 3/4" piping system.
>>
>>And except for wasting money, you will have accomplished absolutely
>>nothing by doing that. You really don't get it do you?
>>
>>Dielectric unions/nipples are used to prevent two *dissimilar*
>>metals from contacting each other where water is present. By you
>>connecting a *steel* 1" dielectric nipple between 2 *steel* bell
>>reducers you've accomplished absolutely nothing (except look foolish).
>>
>>HTH
>
>What you do not get {FLuSH}

What I get is how fucking ignorant your lame reflexive face-saving
yammering makes you look, Einstein.

Perhaps you popped too many brain-veins pulling all those 250lb
A/C condensers up the side of skyscrapers. o_O

On 2/5/2016 5:17 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2016 05:02:45 +0000, Spalted Walt
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>>>> If I were to install one I would up it in size to the next largest
>>>>>>>> diameter and use bell reducers on both ends to eliminate any problems.
>>>>>>>> Side effect would be an increase of electrical resistance, a bonus.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3/4" Camco dielectric nipple I.D. 0.75 in
>>>>> 3/4" type M copper pipe I.D. 0.811 in
>>>>> Difference .061 or ~3/50 in
>>>>>
>>>>> So by all means, you go ahead and "use bell reducers on both ends to
>>>>> eliminate any problems".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I remembered correctly I stated to upsize the nipple to the next
>>>> piping size to eliminate the restriction flow, and use bell reducers
>>>> to install it into your installed piping size. That would mean use a
>>>> 1" nipple on a 3/4" piping system.
>>>
>>> And except for wasting money, you will have accomplished absolutely
>>> nothing by doing that. You really don't get it do you?
>>>
>>> Dielectric unions/nipples are used to prevent two *dissimilar*
>>> metals from contacting each other where water is present. By you
>>> connecting a *steel* 1" dielectric nipple between 2 *steel* bell
>>> reducers you've accomplished absolutely nothing (except look foolish).
>>>
>>> HTH
>>
>> What you do not get {FLuSH}
>
> What I get is how fucking ignorant your lame reflexive face-saving
> yammering makes you look, Einstein.
>
> Perhaps you popped too many brain-veins pulling all those 250lb
> A/C condensers up the side of skyscrapers. o_O
>


ok cHILDREN

On 2/6/2016 6:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:05:44 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 13:37:30 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 20:42:09 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> snip
>>>>>> Really? They are designed for say a 40 degree rise. While the
>>>>>> thermostat could be set for 180 deg F and the High limit at 200 deg G,
>>>>>> if the incoming water is only 120 deg F add 40 deg F and the best you
>>>>>> will see is 160 and that is not enough to sterilize the dishes and
>>>>>> pans. Most domestic dishwashers do not publish the deg rise, but the
>>>>>> info is out there. Until people make a fuss it'll never be a big deal.
>>>>>
>>>>> They may be "designed" for a 40F rise but they will raise the
>>>>> temperature to whatever they're "designed" for. They are
>>>>> thermostatically controlled.
>>>>>>
>>>> You might want to check on that, if they are rated for a 40 or
>>>> whatever degree rise then that is all that they can do.
>>>
>>> Thermostats don't measure temperature rise.
>>>
>>
>> They sure don't, but a 40 deg rise with a colder HW supply than called
>> for ensures that the water temperature will be too low and the
>> thermostat will always be calling for full heat. It could never
>> achieve full temperature while operating. 120 deg supply, add 40
>> degrees output on a booster heater will only give you a maximum of 160
>> deg. If the thermostat was set for 180 it would never be achieved.
>
> If you were talking about a continuous flow system you might have a
> point, but that's not how dishwashers work, they fill and then they run.
> You could put ice water in one and if it ran long enough it would get
> that ice water to whatever temperature it was designed to achieve.
>
> The limit is not the incoming water temperature, it is the heat loss
> through the top, bottom, and sides of the machine.
>


For a DW to give 40 degree rise it would have to know the temperature of
the incoming water so it knows to turn off the heater at incoming +40.
I imagine that is simple enough with all the electronics used today.

There are design limitations though. The heating element is restricted
in size to what the machine will draw to run the pump motor plus the
heating element that won't blow a 15A breaker. Some machines may have a
time limit for the heater to be on before stepping to the next portion
of the cycle. If not. it could go for a very long time hooked to a cold
water tap.

Seems contradictory, but new machines run longer to use less energy.
Our machine has an optional 1 hour cycles that uses more energy than the
regular 4 hour cycle. The long cycle has some built in pauses to let
the detergent soak off the crud.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:05:44 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 13:37:30 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 20:42:09 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>snip
> >>>>Really? They are designed for say a 40 degree rise. While the
> >>>>thermostat could be set for 180 deg F and the High limit at 200 deg G,
> >>>>if the incoming water is only 120 deg F add 40 deg F and the best you
> >>>>will see is 160 and that is not enough to sterilize the dishes and
> >>>>pans. Most domestic dishwashers do not publish the deg rise, but the
> >>>>info is out there. Until people make a fuss it'll never be a big deal.
> >>>
> >>>They may be "designed" for a 40F rise but they will raise the
> >>>temperature to whatever they're "designed" for. They are
> >>>thermostatically controlled.
> >>>>
> >>You might want to check on that, if they are rated for a 40 or
> >>whatever degree rise then that is all that they can do.
> >
> >Thermostats don't measure temperature rise.
> >
>
> They sure don't, but a 40 deg rise with a colder HW supply than called
> for ensures that the water temperature will be too low and the
> thermostat will always be calling for full heat. It could never
> achieve full temperature while operating. 120 deg supply, add 40
> degrees output on a booster heater will only give you a maximum of 160
> deg. If the thermostat was set for 180 it would never be achieved.

If you were talking about a continous flow system you might have a
point, but that's not how dishwashers work, they fill and then they run.
You could put ice water in one and if it ran long enough it would get
that ice water to whatever temperature it was designed to achieve.

The limit is not the incoming water temperature, it is the heat loss
through the top, bottom, and sides of the machine.

> Plus, the 40 deg rise could be rated if the supply HW as a minimum of
> 140 and that as the Supply HW decreased so would the minimum
> temperature rise across the booster heater.
>
> I guess I should say that a booster heater has its designed
> limitations, and should be purchased sized according to the needs of
> the facility.

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:35:05 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 13:33:12 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 20:39:34 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 12:05:36 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 14:06:35 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:39:28 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 19:32:51 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 13:27:30 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 14:39:35 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On 1/31/2016 2:12 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> krw <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:42:06 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hot water from your WH is hot, and comes from the same place your cold
>>>>>>>>>>>> water comes from.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't sit in a largish tank at just the right temperature to grow
>>>>>>>>>>> things, though. ...one reason to not lower the temperature of the
>>>>>>>>>>> water heater.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good point. 120F is the standard temperature for good reason, set it
>>>>>>>>>> there and leave it. Not only does it kill off most nasties in the water,
>>>>>>>>>> but it also gives a pretty decent run time when you fill the tub or take
>>>>>>>>>> a shower.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>In my opinion, 120 is too low. You can prevent scalding with the proper
>>>>>>>>>shower valve though. I just turn it to full on and the temperature is
>>>>>>>>>fine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://www.cashacme.com/resources/hot-water-safety/
>>>>>>>>>Legionella is an aquatic bacteria that thrives in warm water
>>>>>>>>>environments, and is the cause of Legionnaires Disease. It is commonly
>>>>>>>>>found in potable water supplies, hot tubs, cooling towers, fountains,
>>>>>>>>>swimming pools, etc. and multiplies in warm conditions especially
>>>>>>>>>between 68 – 122 °F. The Legionella bacteria can spread to humans when
>>>>>>>>>breathed in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Glad you mentioned this, one thing is consistent in what you described
>>>>>>>>that is not true about HW heaters, that is that everything you
>>>>>>>>described is open to the air. Most use the same chemicals for water
>>>>>>>>treatment which some humans like myself are allergic to in the first
>>>>>>>>place. Cooling tower chemicals have changed in most places to
>>>>>>>>different chemicals to help eliminate the problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yet Legionella is found in closed water heating systems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have never heard that to be the case, if it was then the disease
>>>>>>would be consistently high across the nation since you cannot treat it
>>>>>>there.
>>>>>
>>>>>It is. Huh? It's easily treated. Turn up the damned temperature!
>>>>>;-) It won't survive above 133F, IIRC.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The link above is designed to sell ACME Mixing valves, in order for
>>>>those to do their job properly all the HWS and HWR lines must be
>>>>insulated along with that you need a recirc pump or you are just
>>>>wasting money on the mixing valve.
>>>>
>>>>You should also not that the disease was contracted via your lungs,
>>>>not your stomach.
>>>>
>>>>In many years of experience in the HVAC commercial and industrial
>>>>industry I have yet to see any evidence of bacteria in a closed loop
>>>>system, I have pulled down boilers, HW boosters, heat exchangers of
>>>>all types and never was their any sign of any growth. Now, that said,
>>>>once it hits the air and lingers all bets are off. I have seen growth
>>>>in Hot tubs for general use in Hotels and Motels, Swimming pools,
>>>>cooling towers of all types. Chlorine is often used to kill it, but
>>>>especially in cooling towers there are spots where the water pools and
>>>>flows very little. We also used algaecides or other types, plus they
>>>>all require constant maintenance, tear down, clean up and repairs if
>>>>necessary. This is done for a variety of reason, the least of which is
>>>>any disease.
>>>>
>>>>Think about it. Air? Where in your HW tanks is any air? Air stops
>>>>water flow or lowers the flow depending on where the air is trapped
>>>>and we used air bleed on lines to eliminate that.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The only thing in a HW heater that might present a problem is a zinc
>>>>>>>>anode, and many new HW heaters are glass coated to eliminate erosion
>>>>>>>>and do not use Zinc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>105 deg HW is the safest for those who have diabetes and do not feel
>>>>>>>>things as they should, 102 for infants to prevent burns and
>>>>>>>>scalding's, 140 degrees F for dishwashers, so that their booster
>>>>>>>>heaters can raise the temp high enough (180) to kill germs on dishes
>>>>>>>>etc. So you can set it where you need it for your best interests, and
>>>>>>>>if you need to for showers and tubs you can buy thermostatically
>>>>>>>>controlled mixing valves but that brings up additional needs and
>>>>>>>>retrofitting costs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>140F at the water heater does not mean 140F at the faucet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, if you have a recirc system or in the normal home if you let the
>>>>>>water run unmixed, otherwise the Dishwasher would never see it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dishwashers have heaters. It's usually cheaper to let it boost the
>>>>>temperature.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Really? They are designed for say a 40 degree rise. While the
>>>>thermostat could be set for 180 deg F and the High limit at 200 deg G,
>>>>if the incoming water is only 120 deg F add 40 deg F and the best you
>>>>will see is 160 and that is not enough to sterilize the dishes and
>>>>pans. Most domestic dishwashers do not publish the deg rise, but the
>>>>info is out there. Until people make a fuss it'll never be a big deal.
>>>>
>>>>>>Usually the only time you see it is in restaurants for the kitchen
>>>>>>area's. My home was set that way for years, but we had mixing valves
>>>>>>at every sink. It is a real problem when one has two separate valves,
>>>>>>one hot, the other cold and it has to mix in the sink. I don't know
>>>>>>that it would ever be a viable option in that case.
>>>>>
>>>>>You can mix before the hot faucet.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>And it should be.
>>>>
>>>>>Our first house (banns second, for that matter) had a domestic water
>>>>>coil in the furnace ("boiler" that doesn't). Of course the furnace
>>>>>was set at 180F(+) and it backed right up to the kitchen and the
>>>>>bathrooms. No mixing valves. The water was *hot*.
>>>>
>>>>I'd bet. There's a lot of missing info about that system, was it for
>>>>HW heating, forced air? A recirc pump between the coil and a storage
>>>>tank, and so on. Whatever, I'd bet that it was an old house and done
>>>>properly.
>>>
>>>HW heating. The "domestic coil" is a loop inside the boiler used take
>>>off hot water from the boiler. When the boiler isn't in use, the
>>>water first coming out of the coil is at the boiler temperature, with
>>>is 180F +/-19F, IIRC. That house was built in '72, IIRC. Our second
>>>(same issue but the boiler further from the points of use) was built
>>>in '86.
>>
>>When I read that I see boilers that are quite a bit larger than a
>>domestic types, but they are high maintenance unless you had a good
>>water softener or naturally soft water, due to calcium build up in the
>>coils.
>
>NO, they're used for even small homes, too (~100KBTU). Yes. You bet!
>>
>>I would have set the set point @ 140 during the summer season to save
>>a lot on fuel, unless you live in a cold area of the country.
>
>That's the usual recommendation. I can't remember why we didn't do
>it. There was something screwy with the temperature controls on the
>thing but I don't remember the details.
>>
>>Due to efficiency requirements in Calif, there has been a lot of
>>changes in all types of heating systems.
>
>Retroactive? Yeah there is a lot of difference between $.79 oil and
>$4.50 oil, too. Of course the price is down, now, but it's still
>worth some work to save.

Yes, retroactive mods. Because of new state laws, and pricing
regulations, since the state sets certain limits of fuel prices for
heating etc. boilers over one million BTU's had higher energy costs,
so we wherever possible re rated the boilers by modifying them, or
replacing them with high efficiency boilers and the state, feds, and
gas company's would pay a portion of the costs if they qualified and
that with the reduced operating costs would ROI in 2 years or less.

We don't have many oil fired systems out here for smaller bldg's. But
there were a lot of gas/oil fired boilers for large bldgs, and if
those were replaced and oil firing done away with, there was a lot of
savings there as well.

When I read of the fluctuating oil prices for the oil used in home
heating in the east, I am real happy to be out here, plus the thought
of a snow storm shutting off the supply, {{{{SHUDDER}}}}

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:05:44 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 13:37:30 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 20:42:09 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>snip
>>>>Really? They are designed for say a 40 degree rise. While the
>>>>thermostat could be set for 180 deg F and the High limit at 200 deg G,
>>>>if the incoming water is only 120 deg F add 40 deg F and the best you
>>>>will see is 160 and that is not enough to sterilize the dishes and
>>>>pans. Most domestic dishwashers do not publish the deg rise, but the
>>>>info is out there. Until people make a fuss it'll never be a big deal.
>>>
>>>They may be "designed" for a 40F rise but they will raise the
>>>temperature to whatever they're "designed" for. They are
>>>thermostatically controlled.
>>>>
>>You might want to check on that, if they are rated for a 40 or
>>whatever degree rise then that is all that they can do.
>
>Thermostats don't measure temperature rise.
>

They sure don't, but a 40 deg rise with a colder HW supply than called
for ensures that the water temperature will be too low and the
thermostat will always be calling for full heat. It could never
achieve full temperature while operating. 120 deg supply, add 40
degrees output on a booster heater will only give you a maximum of 160
deg. If the thermostat was set for 180 it would never be achieved.

Plus, the 40 deg rise could be rated if the supply HW as a minimum of
140 and that as the Supply HW decreased so would the minimum
temperature rise across the booster heater.

I guess I should say that a booster heater has its designed
limitations, and should be purchased sized according to the needs of
the facility.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 03:02:23 +0000, Spalted Walt
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>>On 2/5/2016 5:17 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:
>>> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2016 05:02:45 +0000, Spalted Walt
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OFWW <[email protected]> wrote
>>>>>>>>>> If I were to install one I would up it in size to the next largest
>>>>>>>>>> diameter and use bell reducers on both ends to eliminate any problems.
>>>>>>>>>> Side effect would be an increase of electrical resistance, a bonus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3/4" Camco dielectric nipple I.D. 0.75 in
>>>>>>> 3/4" type M copper pipe I.D. 0.811 in
>>>>>>> Difference .061 or ~3/50 in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So by all means, you go ahead and "use bell reducers on both ends to
>>>>>>> eliminate any problems".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I remembered correctly I stated to upsize the nipple to the next
>>>>>> piping size to eliminate the restriction flow, and use bell reducers
>>>>>> to install it into your installed piping size. That would mean use a
>>>>>> 1" nipple on a 3/4" piping system.
>>>>>
>>>>> And except for wasting money, you will have accomplished absolutely
>>>>> nothing by doing that. You really don't get it do you?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dielectric unions/nipples are used to prevent two *dissimilar*
>>>>> metals from contacting each other where water is present. By you
>>>>> connecting a *steel* 1" dielectric nipple between 2 *steel* bell
>>>>> reducers you've accomplished absolutely nothing (except look foolish).
>>>>>
>>>>> HTH
>>>>
>>>> What you do not get {FLuSH}
>>>
>>> What I get is how fucking ignorant your lame reflexive face-saving
>>> yammering makes you look, Einstein.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you popped too many brain-veins pulling all those 250lb
>>> A/C condensers up the side of skyscrapers. o_O
>>>
>>
>>
>> ok cHILDREN
>
>PROTIP: Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime couldn't rope up 250lbs of dead weight to a rooftop

There is a major difference between weight lifting as a profession and
picking up weight in the process of working. We had two weight
lifters that we had to let go, they did not want to ruin their
training and their muscle mass by using other muscles to life even
less weight than what they did normally.

Are you sure the fungus in the spalting hasn't affected your mind? ;)

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 12:41:32 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:22:56 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 10:02:41 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2/6/2016 6:14 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 21:05:44 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 13:37:30 -0800, OFWW <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 01 Feb 2016 20:42:09 -0500, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> snip
>>>>>>>>> Really? They are designed for say a 40 degree rise. While the
>>>>>>>>> thermostat could be set for 180 deg F and the High limit at 200 deg G,
>>>>>>>>> if the incoming water is only 120 deg F add 40 deg F and the best you
>>>>>>>>> will see is 160 and that is not enough to sterilize the dishes and
>>>>>>>>> pans. Most domestic dishwashers do not publish the deg rise, but the
>>>>>>>>> info is out there. Until people make a fuss it'll never be a big deal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They may be "designed" for a 40F rise but they will raise the
>>>>>>>> temperature to whatever they're "designed" for. They are
>>>>>>>> thermostatically controlled.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might want to check on that, if they are rated for a 40 or
>>>>>>> whatever degree rise then that is all that they can do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thermostats don't measure temperature rise.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They sure don't, but a 40 deg rise with a colder HW supply than called
>>>>> for ensures that the water temperature will be too low and the
>>>>> thermostat will always be calling for full heat. It could never
>>>>> achieve full temperature while operating. 120 deg supply, add 40
>>>>> degrees output on a booster heater will only give you a maximum of 160
>>>>> deg. If the thermostat was set for 180 it would never be achieved.
>>>>
>>>> If you were talking about a continuous flow system you might have a
>>>> point, but that's not how dishwashers work, they fill and then they run.
>>>> You could put ice water in one and if it ran long enough it would get
>>>> that ice water to whatever temperature it was designed to achieve.
>>>>
>>>> The limit is not the incoming water temperature, it is the heat loss
>>>> through the top, bottom, and sides of the machine.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>For a DW to give 40 degree rise it would have to know the temperature of
>>>the incoming water so it knows to turn off the heater at incoming +40.
>>>I imagine that is simple enough with all the electronics used today.
>>
>>Why?
>>>
>>>There are design limitations though. The heating element is restricted
>>>in size to what the machine will draw to run the pump motor plus the
>>>heating element that won't blow a 15A breaker. Some machines may have a
>>>time limit for the heater to be on before stepping to the next portion
>>>of the cycle. If not. it could go for a very long time hooked to a cold
>>>water tap.
>>
>>The pump and heater don't have to run simultaneously. I don't think
>>they do (and I know they run independently).
>>>
>>>Seems contradictory, but new machines run longer to use less energy.
>>>Our machine has an optional 1 hour cycles that uses more energy than the
>>>regular 4 hour cycle. The long cycle has some built in pauses to let
>>>the detergent soak off the crud.
>
>I just selected Whirlpool for a domestic DW regarding sanitation it is
>an option. It will raise the final rinse to approx 155 def F according
>to NSF/ANSI standard 184 for residential use.
>
>It also says that the option adds heat and time to the cycle.
>
>I can only guess at this point, but I'd bet there is a time limit for
>it as the cost to heat up 32 deg F water would be prohibitive for
>energy standards.

Why do you say that? Does it matter if you heat the water in a water
heater or the DW? Most water heaters are electric, so it seems it
would be a wash. ;-)

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 12:08:44 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2/6/2016 10:22 AM, krw wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> For a DW to give 40 degree rise it would have to know the temperature of
>>> the incoming water so it knows to turn off the heater at incoming +40.
>>> I imagine that is simple enough with all the electronics used today.
>>
>> Why?
>
>It needs some way to set the differential. To give a 40 degree rise
>(with an upper limit) it has to have a way of sensing the point to start
>so it knows the stopping point. A simple bi-metal can tell if it is
>below say, 180 and have a shutoff at 180 but if the incoming is more
>that 40 degrees from the upper limit it has to be on a sliding scale.
>
>A more sensible method is to simply have a maximum temperature and let
>it rise to it with no restrictions. I image most are probably like that
>in reality, not a set 40 degrees.
>>>
>>> There are design limitations though. The heating element is restricted
>>> in size to what the machine will draw to run the pump motor plus the
>>> heating element that won't blow a 15A breaker. Some machines may have a
>>> time limit for the heater to be on before stepping to the next portion
>>> of the cycle. If not. it could go for a very long time hooked to a cold
>>> water tap.
>>
>> The pump and heater don't have to run simultaneously. I don't think
>> they do (and I know they run independently).
>
>Could be. Not life changing for me either way. The dishes come out
>clean so my reasons for using the machine are satisfied.
>

In looking at today's residential DW the temp rise factor is
determined differently, in a commercial application what I said still
stands. For the home they only require 155 degf as a minimum for
rinse sterilization as opposed to the 180 degf for commercial
applications.

DW have changed a lot over the years, I never worked on any,
residential ones, I only knew some of the specs for those years ago as
I compared them to the commercial products of that day.

Along with HVAC we also did restaurant equipment back in the 70's and
80's. Motto was wall to wall ceiling to floor. Equipment wise.

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 12:08:44 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2/6/2016 10:22 AM, krw wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> For a DW to give 40 degree rise it would have to know the temperature of
>>> the incoming water so it knows to turn off the heater at incoming +40.
>>> I imagine that is simple enough with all the electronics used today.
>>
>> Why?
>
>It needs some way to set the differential. To give a 40 degree rise
>(with an upper limit) it has to have a way of sensing the point to start
>so it knows the stopping point. A simple bi-metal can tell if it is
>below say, 180 and have a shutoff at 180 but if the incoming is more
>that 40 degrees from the upper limit it has to be on a sliding scale.
>
>A more sensible method is to simply have a maximum temperature and let
>it rise to it with no restrictions. I image most are probably like that
>in reality, not a set 40 degrees.

Sorry, I meant "why would you even want to do a 40F rise?", rather
than a constant temperature.
>>>
>>> There are design limitations though. The heating element is restricted
>>> in size to what the machine will draw to run the pump motor plus the
>>> heating element that won't blow a 15A breaker. Some machines may have a
>>> time limit for the heater to be on before stepping to the next portion
>>> of the cycle. If not. it could go for a very long time hooked to a cold
>>> water tap.
>>
>> The pump and heater don't have to run simultaneously. I don't think
>> they do (and I know they run independently).
>
>Could be. Not life changing for me either way. The dishes come out
>clean so my reasons for using the machine are satisfied.
>
Sure but the full power can be used where/when needed.

On Jun 8, 10:22=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
> is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.
>
> I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
> No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.
>

You have my vote. Besides I have seen some excellent trends in rock
and shrubbery projects replacing lawns.
Many of those are because the Province has outlawed weedkiller
fertilizers.
Thank goodness we're still allowed our banana trees.

"Larry Jaques" wrote:

> I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
> No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost,
> etc.
--------------------------
They are finally getting that idea in place for your old stomping
grounds of SoCal which is little more than a paved desert.

Green grass in the English country side is one thing, in the desert
SW, quite another.

Water rationing for lawns is in place as well as inncentives to rip
out grass and return to the native SW ground covers.

Lew

On Jun 9, 3:02=A0pm, "Eric" <[email protected]> wrote:
[snipped]


>(I never liked that Blue Grass noise either)

THAT's an automatic suspension.

Eric wrote the following:
>
>
> "Larry Jaques" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 21:07:05 -0400, "Eric" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Apparently the costs are very small. If you listen to the sales
>> people it
>> saves money on water bills not running the taps to get hot water up
>> from the
>> depths of hell.
>> The units have timers on them and additional heat in the house costs
>> nothing
>> in the winter.
>>
>> http://www.google.ca/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=grundfos+circulating+pump&aq=2&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=grundfos
>>
>
> I can't see that running cooling loops for hot water would offer any
> savings over tanked water heaters, energywise. But it'd save water
> instead of electricity or gas.
>
> Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
> is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.
>
> I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
> No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.
>
> ===============
>
> I am growing "Eco-Grass" . It's a bitch to get going, especially in
> thunderstorms that wash out 20-30 yards of topsoil down the ditch, and
> it take about two years to look decent, but with it's 9-12" deep roots
> it is drought proof, mostly weed proof and needs to be mowed about
> every three weeks, only, and it really looks good with a nice fine
> blade.. Trouble is the weeds like to stick up much higher and much
> faster so you mow anyway. Biggest trick is to ditch the Kentucky Blue
> Grass = high maintenance, lots of weeds and dies in a drought quite
> quickly, tooted as the highest cost ground cover invented. (I never
> liked that Blue Grass noise either)
>
>
> --
>
> Eric
>
>
>
Can we know where you live? It may make a difference in the responses.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 21:07:05 -0400, "Eric" <[email protected]>
wrote:


>Apparently the costs are very small. If you listen to the sales people it
>saves money on water bills not running the taps to get hot water up from the
>depths of hell.
>The units have timers on them and additional heat in the house costs nothing
>in the winter.
>
>http://www.google.ca/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=grundfos+circulating+pump&aq=2&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=grundfos

I can't see that running cooling loops for hot water would offer any
savings over tanked water heaters, energywise. But it'd save water
instead of electricity or gas.

Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.

I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.

--
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
--anon

Larry Jaques wrote:

>
> I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
> No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.

No more... well, you know... out in the back lawn on a warm summer night?
That sucks!

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 21:07:05 -0400, "Eric" <[email protected]>
wrote:


>Apparently the costs are very small. If you listen to the sales people it
>saves money on water bills not running the taps to get hot water up from
>the
>depths of hell.
>The units have timers on them and additional heat in the house costs
>nothing
>in the winter.
>
>http://www.google.ca/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=grundfos+circulating+pump&aq=2&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=grundfos

I can't see that running cooling loops for hot water would offer any
savings over tanked water heaters, energywise. But it'd save water
instead of electricity or gas.

Which is higher in your house, gas/elec bill or water? I'll bet water
is cheaper almost everywhere, but it is more valuable.

I'm surprised that lawns haven't been banned. Wouldn't that be nice?
No more mowing, feeding, greening, weeding, mower noise and cost, etc.

===============

I am growing "Eco-Grass" . It's a bitch to get going, especially in
thunderstorms that wash out 20-30 yards of topsoil down the ditch, and it
take about two years to look decent, but with it's 9-12" deep roots it is
drought proof, mostly weed proof and needs to be mowed about every three
weeks, only, and it really looks good with a nice fine blade.. Trouble is
the weeds like to stick up much higher and much faster so you mow anyway.
Biggest trick is to ditch the Kentucky Blue Grass = high maintenance, lots
of weeds and dies in a drought quite quickly, tooted as the highest cost
ground cover invented. (I never liked that Blue Grass noise either)


--

Eric

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 12:14:41 -0400, "Eric" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>"Swingman" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>On 6/7/2011 8:23 PM, Eric wrote:
>>
>> Long pipes and large system pockets (manifolds) are the problem with
>> most hot water distribution systems. Right at the tap sounds good
>> but hasn't proven easy to implement.
>
>You're right about the long runs, but I'd argue that a PEX remote
>manifold, if located/done correctly, should improve your delivery system
>even in those cases. As I said in the beginning, easier to do in new
>construction, mostly difficult, and usually expensive to effect in most
>retrofits ... which is why it isn't often done, and IME results in the
>biggest cause of user dissatisfaction with tankless installations.
>
>Close to the endpoint (your "right at the tap") is pretty much how
>Europe has operated for decades, and very successfully. Pumps and a loop
>system, if properly implemented, also seem to work very well, although I
>haven't built one that way personally.
>
>=======
>
>I could see using a low temperature preheat (maybe NG or solar) to take the
>edge off the initial water heating and then a small (maybe electric) booster
>to give the final temperature at the faucet. Probably too much installation
>expense though.
>
>I have many of my runs disconnected from my hot manifold to keep more
>frequent circulation going in the trunk runs. I was waiting so long for hot
>water it was painful. I want to put my air handler on the end of that run
>yet, to keep hot water close to faucets, except it will not help in the
>winter and the legal limit of 60C makes an upstairs warm-up each morning a
>little too lengthy. I did add it to the feed of the manifold and that cut a
>few seconds off the time delay. I still have access to most of my PEX as the
>basement ceiling is removable tiles or open. Not done experimenting yet.
>
>The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less
>length to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID and
>it still seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot water to
>hit the end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It also seems
>to cool off much faster than copper pipe so you start with room temp every

Is all of your hot water line insulated?


>time. I was thinking it should be the other way around. Meanwhile a
>neighbour installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot water within 2
>seconds anywhere. GRRRRR...

And it costs him $40/mo for the extra electricity or gas to do that.

--
Fleas can be taught nearly anything that a Congressman can.
-- Mark Twain

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 12:14:41 -0400, "Eric" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>"Swingman" wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>On 6/7/2011 8:23 PM, Eric wrote:
>>
>> Long pipes and large system pockets (manifolds) are the problem with
>> most hot water distribution systems. Right at the tap sounds good
>> but hasn't proven easy to implement.
>
>You're right about the long runs, but I'd argue that a PEX remote
>manifold, if located/done correctly, should improve your delivery system
>even in those cases. As I said in the beginning, easier to do in new
>construction, mostly difficult, and usually expensive to effect in most
>retrofits ... which is why it isn't often done, and IME results in the
>biggest cause of user dissatisfaction with tankless installations.
>
>Close to the endpoint (your "right at the tap") is pretty much how
>Europe has operated for decades, and very successfully. Pumps and a loop
>system, if properly implemented, also seem to work very well, although I
>haven't built one that way personally.
>
>=======
>
>I could see using a low temperature preheat (maybe NG or solar) to take the
>edge off the initial water heating and then a small (maybe electric)
>booster
>to give the final temperature at the faucet. Probably too much installation
>expense though.
>
>I have many of my runs disconnected from my hot manifold to keep more
>frequent circulation going in the trunk runs. I was waiting so long for hot
>water it was painful. I want to put my air handler on the end of that run
>yet, to keep hot water close to faucets, except it will not help in the
>winter and the legal limit of 60C makes an upstairs warm-up each morning a
>little too lengthy. I did add it to the feed of the manifold and that cut a
>few seconds off the time delay. I still have access to most of my PEX as
>the
>basement ceiling is removable tiles or open. Not done experimenting yet.
>
>The PEX really puzzles me over my old house copper system. I have less
>length to the farthest faucet, and the PEX is supposed to be smaller ID and
>it still seems to take double the time the copper house did for hot water
>to
>hit the end faucet??? Maybe I am just watching too closely. It also seems
>to cool off much faster than copper pipe so you start with room temp every

Is all of your hot water line insulated?


>time. I was thinking it should be the other way around. Meanwhile a
>neighbour installed all copper and a circ pump and has hot water within 2
>seconds anywhere. GRRRRR...

And it costs him $40/mo for the extra electricity or gas to do that.

===================

Apparently the costs are very small. If you listen to the sales people it
saves money on water bills not running the taps to get hot water up from the
depths of hell.
The units have timers on them and additional heat in the house costs nothing
in the winter.

http://www.google.ca/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=grundfos+circulating+pump&aq=2&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=grundfos

--

Eric