On 8/25/2012 8:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
>
> Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell
> out the bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>
> When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts,
> his exact words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
>
> basilisk
>
>
If those were his exact words, he was being tacky.
But Festool has one price. The only way to get a reduced price that I
know of is either buying at an introductory price, buying in combination
with a Festool Vac, buying a reduced discontinued item, buying from a
company that is going out of business/no longer going to carry Festool,
and or IIRC buying the occasional refurbished unit directly from Festool.
Their tools are worth every penny you spend and are a good value if you
actually have a need for this quality of tool.
The good thing about paying the same price as every one else, regardless
of where you live, is that you do not have to worry that you are paying
more than what you would pay anywhere else. Support your local dealer!
Is Festool expensive? Yes, to some. Is PC expensive? Yes, to some.
Is Ryopbi expensive? Yes, to some. Is Harbor Freight expensive? Yes,
to some.
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:49:03 -0400, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at
comcast dot net> wrote:
>
>
>"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 07:13:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>>>In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult. I can
>>>hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops up with a
>>>mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of mere curiosity
>>>more
>>>than anything else. Do you guys have secret chants and all that stuff?...
>>
>> Well, I can't stand to hide the facts any longer. The truth is that we
>> are all a cult of the ashamed.
>>
>> Each of us is ashamed that some sponsor (like Leon) talked us (me)
>> into buying Festool. We are ashamed that we spent money on something
>> we didn't really need and is pretty useless from the get go. And, we
>> are ashamed with our buyer's remorse.
>>
>> You see Mike, Festool products don't live up to our expectations at
>> all, but we're too embarrassed to admit it. So, we all banded together
>> and decided to tell everybody how great Festool is. That way, we can
>> collect more gullible Festool buyers. The greater our number, the
>> better these useless Festool products look to the general public and
>> the easier it is to hide are embarrassment at being duped.
>>
>> Festool is really a pyramid scheme to sell faulty tools and created by
>> some lowly (but now richer than Dog) stock boy who was employed by
>> them before they became famous.
>>
>> So, there you have it. I've bared my soul. Dog help me.
>>
>> (Sorry about the Dog comments, I'm a little dyslexic.)
>
>If I understand you correctly, Leon is a cult leader!
Hmm, his writing has caused me to spend money. He's convinced me to go with a
Laguna and at least one of the Festering tools.
>Well, that would certainly explain some things. ;-)
Don't tell my wife!
On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 09:10:59 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 8/27/2012 11:02 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>
>> If I was building in my shop, then there wasn't as much of an impact,
>> but there was still some anyway you look at it. Despite Leon's over
>> the top enthusiasm with Festool, he actually does a tremendous amount
>> of work in his shop. Why should anybody doubt his claims of greatly
>> increased efficiency?
>
>I'm still pondering his claims that a festool sander makes sanding
>almost fun. I can afford one, but I'm still pondering.
>
>> As far as the rest of the tools you mentioned go, the only one I can
>> comment to is the sanding. Festool sanders with the appropriate
>> Festool dust collector are noticeably more efficient with the dust
>> collection.
>
>I question that. My sander has 8 holes to collect dust, it does not have
>the middle 9th hole a festering sander has. My sander makes about no
>dust when hooked up to my 35 year old $80 shop vac, or to my dust
>collection system... no dust. I would bet money if I buy a festering
>sander, and can find the appropriate non-standard hose fittings (thats
>an assumption because my experience with super [over] high priced stuff
>is they make everything non-standard so they can pry even more money out
>of your pocket) it would be just as dust free as it would if I used a
>$500+ festering vac.
The Festering hose is a European standard, IIRC, but they do sell an adapter
to a standard US (1-1/2", I think) shop vac. That's what I use and there
aren't any problems with it.
>That lack of a greater amount of dust *always* has a
>> significant impact in a client's home.
>
>Yawn.
>
>> Now, if it's a total gut job, not much of a difference, but that
>> wasn't my shtick back then.
>>
>> But, I understand all of what you're saying/asking. The march of
>> Festool sales is inexorable. But, its pricing will always limit it to
>> a certain strata.
>
>Yes, rich banker that wants the best money can buy. That might include
>some tradesman, but not many. That is there market, they want their
>prices high, they will not budge, they don't allow sales. A sale would
>ruin their image to the rich Texan oil guys, or the hobbyist school
>teacher that makes too much money and thinks he can build a quality
>cabinet if he just owned the best tools money can buy.
They *do* have sales. I bought both of my Festers (router and track saw)
during sales.
>The sander still has my attention, fun is good at most any price! I'm
>just a bit leery of Leon's "over the top enthusiasm", but he is right
>about most everything in my experience.
Including the value of Festools. Give in to the force. You've lost. ;-)
On 8/28/2012 6:13 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Don't take this the wrong way but until you actually do this for a
>> living you have no idea. Time is money, you should know this and
>> beyond any other feature the Festool tools in large are extreme time
>> savers.
>
> Correct - and the fact that I do not do this for a living is part of why I
> only ask questions from the casual user perspective (and try to point out
> from time to time that that's what I'm doing), and don't assume a more
> assertive posture on the matter. I don't fix cars for a living, and at the
> same time I think outfitting my garage with all SnapOn tools would be a
> waste of money since lesser tools will and do, perform the job just as well
> for the usage that I put them to. Likewise, I don't buy the best spray gun
> that $600 will purchase, because I don't spray for a living, and my guns do
> the job just fine for what I do. For me - there would be little appreciable
> gain in stepping up from what I have. Both of those are examples of the
> same thoughts - because people like myself don't do this for a living, I
> just wonder what all the fuss is about. You know - I wonder just how much
> better "this thing" can be.
>
> I do understand a couple of claims that the Festool users speak frequently
> about. One is the ease of use/production with a Domino. If I were building
> 100 drawers like you are prone to do, I would probably see the same value in
> that tool that you do. Second is the dust issue. Many here have talked
> about the dust mitigation value of their Festool tools. I can also see that
> to some degree, and only asked some questions about that value since other
> aspects of a job generate so much dust/debris that it seemed like that value
> got lost in the debris of a job site.
Consider also that when controlling dust while sanding that the sand
paper lasts considerably longer. When sanding the build up of dust
between the paper and the wood generates heat. The heat more quickly
breaks down the quality of paper and causes the paper to load up more
quickly. If there is no dust collecting this problem is not as problematic.
>
> In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult. I can
> hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops up with a
> mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of mere curiosity more
> than anything else. Do you guys have secret chants and all that stuff?...
Do you have a chant when you use your spray gun vs. when your neighbor
paints with a rattle can of paint?
Leon wrote:
>
> Don't take this the wrong way but until you actually do this for a
> living you have no idea. Time is money, you should know this and
> beyond any other feature the Festool tools in large are extreme time
> savers.
Correct - and the fact that I do not do this for a living is part of why I
only ask questions from the casual user perspective (and try to point out
from time to time that that's what I'm doing), and don't assume a more
assertive posture on the matter. I don't fix cars for a living, and at the
same time I think outfitting my garage with all SnapOn tools would be a
waste of money since lesser tools will and do, perform the job just as well
for the usage that I put them to. Likewise, I don't buy the best spray gun
that $600 will purchase, because I don't spray for a living, and my guns do
the job just fine for what I do. For me - there would be little appreciable
gain in stepping up from what I have. Both of those are examples of the
same thoughts - because people like myself don't do this for a living, I
just wonder what all the fuss is about. You know - I wonder just how much
better "this thing" can be.
I do understand a couple of claims that the Festool users speak frequently
about. One is the ease of use/production with a Domino. If I were building
100 drawers like you are prone to do, I would probably see the same value in
that tool that you do. Second is the dust issue. Many here have talked
about the dust mitigation value of their Festool tools. I can also see that
to some degree, and only asked some questions about that value since other
aspects of a job generate so much dust/debris that it seemed like that value
got lost in the debris of a job site.
In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult. I can
hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops up with a
mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of mere curiosity more
than anything else. Do you guys have secret chants and all that stuff?...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 9:05 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Dave wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep
>>> up, making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not
>>> perfect with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot
>>> better than it was.
>>
>> As long as you are cutting Dominos. How does that help with the
>> larger percentage of the work done on site? Think circular saws,
>> table saws, drills, sanders, etc.? I just can't see where this
>> green stuff is that significantly better in the real world of
>> working on a total project.
>
> Don't take this the wrong way but until you actually do this for a
> living you have no idea. Time is money, you should know this and
> beyond any other feature the Festool tools in large are extreme time
> savers.
I had already replied to this comment from Leon, but then I thought of some
things that I'd like to add - to lend context to my questions.
So first off - as I have stated before, I am not of the camp that says that
Festools are not worth their money.
To explain a bit...
First off - right now, I don't do anything - or enough of anything that
would justify (objectively), purchasing any of their tools. That said -
objective decsions are only a small part of life. Translated - I have and I
will probably continue to make purchases of cool things that I didn't
"really need".
One aspect of my questions is that in my mental categories of tool
purchases, I have a few different levels. On one level, there are tools
that I am going to purchase, or upgrade in a fairly immediate timeframe.
Those might be called my must have purchases. Like most people, I will do a
good amount of research into the various options out there, and try hard to
understand the real value or pitfalls of any particular option. I look to
the experiences of others, I ask a lot of questions to understand just how
valuable a feature may be - and for what reason to that person. That may,
or it may not, ever apply to me. No matter - I like to understand it all.
Sometimes, I will make a purchase that is well over what I really need to do
a job well. Sometimes it's just because that's what I want. Not so
different from picking out a wife. A lot of women will do from a functional
standpoint, but then there's that one model that you really want... I'm
fine with the idea that I over purchased a tool just because that's the tool
I really wanted.
Then there's a category of purchases that are best described as "when this
breaks, I'm going to replace it with XXX". In that category, I like talking
with other guys about what they have and why they like it or dislike it. I
like to dig in with questions so that I really understand those positions as
well. This is sort of a research mode, knowing that said purchase is out
there a little bit, and I'm just trying to prepare myself so that I am ready
to pull the trigger when the time comes.
Finally, there is my wish list category. Most likely, most things on my
wish list will still be wish list items when I die. They just are not that
necessary for me, or for some other reason, they are not going to bubble up
to the top of my needs list. But - I do like having a wish list.
I enjoy speaking with other guys and asking more about their preferences and
decisions, and I enjoy when they point out the specific things that they see
as valuable in a tool. That may or it may not apply to me and my uses, but
it does give me a good solid understanding of that perceived value. What
leaves me feeling short are statements like "Time is money". "If you were a
pro..." and that sort of comment. I don't disagree with those comments at
all, and I even understand that busy people make short statements - that's
all fine. I continue to ask because I do believe those statements, and try
to quantify what they mean. Dave has been particularly good in this area.
He has pointed out two specific features of his Festools (I know, I
know...), that are very significant to him and the way he works today,
and/or that would have been very valuable to him in his past career. For
him, dust collection/mitigation and associated noise is very important.
Very good - I get that and I can put that into a value niche in my mental
categories. Leon, likewise. I understand how valuable the Domino was for
him to create 100 drawers. Not that I would likely ever find myself in that
position, but in a parallel sense, I can quickly see where building 10
drawers could benefit from that technology. This kind of dialog is very
valuable.
So - in the end, my questions are genuine and play a part in one of my
mental categories. It's part of the fellowship of sharing experiences, etc.
I even get it that a guy might become an advocate of a tool just because -
well, just because. Hell, we do sometimes buy things - just because. And I
have room for that in my categories. I just look to understand if that is
the reason, or if there are other things to quantify.
A poster here seems to take offense at the questioning by others, of things
he has proclaimed. I don't lose any sleep over those kinds of people - this
group is not about their declarations. I do enjoy those who engage in this
dialog without feeling threatened by another guy asking about their
purchases. I might never make the same purchase - or I might. I like that
this forum can be a part of that whole process.
One of the coolest aspects is that from this kind of dialog, you can watch
your own thoughts change on any particular topic. As people explain their
thoughts or experiences, you can see that there are aspects you had not
previously considered yourself. Some of them may be valuable and some not
so much. But - I do find myself recognizing value in areas that I had not
considered before, as I engage in these conversations. I experienced this
in reverse in a conversation with Robert (nailshooter), a few years back.
He was stuck in a particular paint technology and it was a conversation
here, between the two of us, where I chided him and encouraged him to get
out and explore urethanes. Beyond that - I even <GASP> pointed him to a
stupid cheap Harbor Freight gun that would serve him well. When he is
around here, he will from time to time point out those early conversations
and recognize the learning value in them. Now - this is Robert we are
talking about! A guy that I hold the upmost respect for in his knowledge
and the dedication he demonstrates in explaining things to people. Talk
about a guy that really digs into a matter! But - it was an experience of
two guys chatting, and one offering thoughts and opinions, and the other
investing in those. Asking the "why" questions, etc. We bantered some
details back and forth - he asking the why questions and me giving my
perspective back. Ask Robert about shooting urethanes today, and ask him
about that stupid cheap Harbor Freight gun. That's the kind of thing that
makes a group like this great - not the sarcastic crap that comes up from
those who don't want anyone asking about the things they declare to be
right, and even mischaracterizing the posts of others. There are those here
who want to be the ultimate authority on everything and those people and
go...
I apprecaite those who have shared thier experiences, those who embrace the
questions I ask, and those who do not preconceive what I might be thinking.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Jack wrote:
>
> PC's are hardware, OS is software. Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
> but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
> anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today
> has not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I
> suspected the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks
> like I was wrong, it already past that marker.
I don't think that's correct. To my knowledge, MS has never been found by a
court to have used any "illegal" tactics (in the US). As far as industry
dominance, no company, ever, has been found to be in violation of any
anti-trust laws when the company grew into that position solely by internal
means. Microsoft has never been found (by the DOJ) to have bought out
competitors or other rascally behavior, so the DOJ has never brought an
anti-trust action against the company.
Disclaimer: Just because I own a wheel-barrow load of Microsoft stock does
not color the above post. No, not any.
On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 16:21:40 +0000, lucasP
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Hello everyone, i am the one reffered to as the "Festool Guy " at the
>2012 IWF show, just to clear a few things up, i was not working for
>festool or 'Tools for Working Wood: Welcome'
>(http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com) who actually paid for the booth, im
>a cabinet builder who was subcontracted out by toolsforworkingwood in
>effort to show how much they as a retailer care about you as a client
>that they are willing to shell out upwards of 10k to demo tools for you
>and answer most questions to the best of their ability, they have
>invested tons of time and effort into creating the conveniance of a
>mobile site but without loosing the personal touch of a family ran
>establishment, how many other retailers can you say the same for?
Thank you for the clarification.
>With
>that being said all the tools you saw at my booth were tools that belong
>to me, minus a few sanders and the router table, i paid full retail
>price for these tools hence my statement...now as far as your comment
>about having a show special, festool just like any other company doesnt
>want to start giving discounts because they dont want to devalue their
>tool, they want you to base your decision of where to buy not by how
>much of a discount you can get but by how good the dealer is, their
>knowledge of the tools and their customer service...
You make a good point, but there is one thing that still bugs me. Not
just Festool, but many others like them.
I agree that it takes a lot of overhead to properly stock, display,
demonstrate, etc. and you deserve to make a fair profit. You must make
profit to stay in business and serve customers in the future.
No one, IMO, has the right to tell you how much to sell your goods
for. If the MSREP is $600, if you provide exceptional service maybe
you can get $630. But if you want to sell it for $550, that is your
business too.
Try calling amazon
>and asking them if you can use a 1/4" collet in your 2200 router, their
>honest opinion about the surefix.... I have been to dealerships who have
>one employee that was sent to festool training who is a total burnout
>and cant even answer which sandpaper to use on bare wood.
And they expect me to pay that twit full retail price?
>Now in my
>opinion when your spending 600 bucks on a dust extractor i would love to
>have someone tell me why its worth that 600, tell me its features and
>benefits and how it is intergradable with other festool products and
>even other brand tools... Rather than hearing here it is, on /off, 600$
>so you want it?
If I've done my research, perhaps that is all that is needed. To be
fair, I won't take an hour of your time at the full price dealer and
then go to the discounter to buy and save a few bucks. That is
unethical, yet done every day. I don't know how to stop it.
> Once the prices go down so does
>everything else along with it, as a cabinet builder the only time i can
>drop my price is if i use cheaper materials because my labor will not
>change, so i most likely will thank you and walk away from the project
>because i refuse to put my hard work into an inferior end product, if
>you want to compete for jobs with the laborers that stand in front of
>big box stores you might as well stick to buying tools from those same
>stores as well.
>Regards
>Lucas
Agree
Leon wrote:
> Basically no noise
> fatigue, part of what makes sanding more fun. ;~)
Now stop it Leon - sanding is just not fun!
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:38:34 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> Festool or any other tool can reduce that to such a level that
>> anyone (or perhaps better said... everyone) can sleep through it at
>> 15 ft. Like so many other things - one off encounters are worth
>> something but they do not make make a real case.
>
> Have you listened to a Festool dust collector? In no way shape or form
> can you compare it's quietness to any regular shrieking shop vac.
> Depending on the speed that one is set, it's a virtual hum. Although,
> I don't own a Festool sander, I've listened to and used one before.
> All it does is add another dimension to that virtual hum.
Nope - I have to admit (again...) that I have never heard one. That leaves
me open to your assertion that it is very quiet. In no way am I disputing
that.
>
> Mike, you need to get your butt over to a Festool dealer's demo day
> and find out for yourself. Until then all you denials and refusal to
> agree count for nada. And similarly, until then you just don't have
> any basis to disagree with what's been said to you about Festool.
Stop. You sound like Karl. A little reading comprehension would benefit
the both of you. In no post have I either denied or refused to agree on
anything. I have asked a lot of questions out of genuine interest, and
tried to position my own needs. I have never disagreed with what has been
said to me. Geeze - this is a text group, which implies a certain level of
reading comprehension...
I think that questions make Festool owners feel guilty...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> On 8/28/2012 10:10 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I sort'a agree, there is no risk what so ever unless you consider
>>> liking and wanting to keep a tool you clearly can not afford. Every
>>> new Festool tool comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Simply
>>> put, those that want to argue the merits just want to argue or have
>>> no business spending this kind of money in the first place.
>>
>> Almost every tool you buy today comes with a 30 day money back
>> gurantee - that is nothing special. You are starting to sound like
>> Karl - questions posed to you are rephrased as having been
>> "arguments". Leon - that is not right, nor is it even fair.
>
> Mike I think you are just wanting to argue.
No - I am not! I haven't taken an argumentative postion throughout any of
these discussions. As I said in a differnt post - I have an interest in
this stuff.
> I never said that no
> other tool had a 30 day money back guarantee, I simply stated that
> every new Festool comes with a 30 day money back guarantee.
Ok - I misunderstood what you meant. I thougt you stated that as a unique
value. My mistake.
>
> You are not simply asking questions for information, you are asking
> question to be argumentative. You ask questions, I give you answers.
> You do not like the answers so you are offended. Sorry.
>
>
Please stop that Leon. Please show me where any of my questions were in any
way argumentative. They were genuine and probing. Perhaps you just don't
like that I asked additional questions. Understood. But - don't start
saying that they are argumentative when I have explained why I ask the
things I do. I think it's best to just let it drop at this point.
> Forget the customer satisfaction that I have
>> developed over the years. Me and people like me who ask questions,
>> must be the lesser folks. Leon - you have transgressed...
>
> No Mike, you have put your self in that classification. Perhaps you
> think you have reached your limit of expertise. I would not know,
> only you would.
>
No - in fact I don't - at least in the long haul. Perhaps at any one point
in time, but that's not a limit, it's just a reality at a point in time.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 8/28/2012 10:16 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> Consider also that when controlling dust while sanding that the sand
>> paper lasts considerably longer. When sanding the build up of dust
>> between the paper and the wood generates heat. The heat more quickly
>> breaks down the quality of paper and causes the paper to load up more
>> quickly. If there is no dust collecting this problem is not as
>> problematic.
>
> Point well taken... to a point. As a guy who uses abrasives in a lot of
> ways, I do indeed recognize this, but I also recognize that the real value
> is quite small. It might result in a sheet or two less on any given
> project. For a large scale shop that might add up to a couple of bucks over
> a year's worth of time. For even the most ardent contractor - let alone the
> home guy - this is a very negligable amount. What could we say - maybe $10
> per year at the most? Maybe a bit more - maybe a bit less?
No seriously I probably go through Festool $50 of paper per year
minimum, x 5 years, so far a saving of $125 assuming at least double
life over the old PSA stuff and I am not a production shop so my savings
are less. Not a whole lot but that is only one advantage to the Festool
vac/sanders over the average vac. Festool dust collection saves paper
and saves dust getting into every nook and cranny, quietly to name just
one another advantage. Hepa filter to save my lungs. Rotex sander
compared to belt sanders and ROS, PC and Bosch sanders that I have
recently used, no contest.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult. I can
>>> hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops
>>> up with a mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of
>>> mere curiosity more than anything else. Do you guys have secret
>>> chants and all that stuff?...
>>
>> Do you have a chant when you use your spray gun vs. when your neighbor
>> paints with a rattle can of paint?
>
> I think you missed the obvious intended humor Leon...
>
I believe you meant to be funny, I just tossed it back to you and you
should not take offense to my comparison. ;~)
On 8/30/2012 9:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:24:29 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> I wish! I still have OS/2 and my entire OPUS BBS system on a 486 on the
>> floor beside me. Hasn't been hooked up in 12 years but I bet it would
>> boot right up if I plugged her in. WIN has not caught up to OS/2 even
>> with XP and WIN 7. I will admit that XP almost worked, and WIN 7 is
>> getting there, but really, I don't think anyone at MS has a freaking
>> clue what they are doing, and must use way to many recreational drugs.
>>
>
>
> I hear complaints like that often. For some reason though, the
> complainers continue to use the product rather than make their own
> system that would be better, faster, cheaper. Once you do, let me
> know and I'll buy it. Meantime, I'm using MS products until yours
> hits the market.
Even Windows 8!?
<g, d&r>
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Dave wrote:
>
> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
> it was.
As long as you are cutting Dominos. How does that help with the larger
percentage of the work done on site? Think circular saws, table saws,
drills, sanders, etc.? I just can't see where this green stuff is that
significantly better in the real world of working on a total project.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 01:37:49 GMT, basilisk <[email protected]>
>Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell
>out the bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>
>When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts,
>his exact words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
If you were the owner/inventor and had a product that performed a
particular function, a product that people wanted and were already
buying, would you offer a discount? Would you need to offer a
discount.
I can see your reasoning ~ getting additional customers = greater
profits. But, Festool's whole line of products is premised on doing
functions that most other products can do, but doing it better,
cleaner and faster. And unfortunately, offering those products at a
higher price point.
Unfortunately for the lay person, there's Festool stock owners
somewhere laughing all the way to the bank.
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:34:01 -0400, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into applications.
>Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them ubiquitous. Later,
>breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In the '90s, PCs were about where
>phones were in the '50s.
But the broken units are pretty much back together again. How many
baby bells existed after the breakup? Now you have ATT and Verizon
and ?????
All the kings horses and all the kings men did a good job on Humpty
the Phone Company.
On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:27:52 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Dave, Do you have a SS?
What's an SS? Safety Something???
On 8/29/2012 7:31 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 20:27:52 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dave, Do you have a SS?
>
> What's an SS? Safety Something???
Er uh, SawStop?
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 07:13:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>>In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult. I can
>>hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops up with a
>>mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of mere curiosity
>>more
>>than anything else. Do you guys have secret chants and all that stuff?...
>
> Well, I can't stand to hide the facts any longer. The truth is that we
> are all a cult of the ashamed.
>
> Each of us is ashamed that some sponsor (like Leon) talked us (me)
> into buying Festool. We are ashamed that we spent money on something
> we didn't really need and is pretty useless from the get go. And, we
> are ashamed with our buyer's remorse.
>
> You see Mike, Festool products don't live up to our expectations at
> all, but we're too embarrassed to admit it. So, we all banded together
> and decided to tell everybody how great Festool is. That way, we can
> collect more gullible Festool buyers. The greater our number, the
> better these useless Festool products look to the general public and
> the easier it is to hide are embarrassment at being duped.
>
> Festool is really a pyramid scheme to sell faulty tools and created by
> some lowly (but now richer than Dog) stock boy who was employed by
> them before they became famous.
>
> So, there you have it. I've bared my soul. Dog help me.
>
> (Sorry about the Dog comments, I'm a little dyslexic.)
If I understand you correctly, Leon is a cult leader!
Well, that would certainly explain some things. ;-)
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in news:22241$503e3cc5
[email protected]:
> Leon wrote:
>
>> Basically no noise
>> fatigue, part of what makes sanding more fun. ;~)
>
> Now stop it Leon - sanding is just not fun!
>
Yes it is, and he'll let you come over and use his sander and vacuum if
you'll sand Aunt Polly's fence and give him a quarter! :-)
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
*snip*
>
> I changed quickly to pocket holes for face frames, because the value
> is obvious. I also see the value in a silent vacuum cleaner, but not
> enough to spend 3x's as much than for one damn near just as quiet. I
> see little/no value (to me) in a domino and I listened intently to all
> the arguments. Jury is still out on what sander, if any, I should
> replace my current one with. I don't make stuff like I did when I was
> younger, and gung ho, so even if the $400 overpriced festool sander is
> worth it, not sure it is to me, but, it is the one festool you have
> come close to talking me into, but I hate sanding and fun is an
> interesting concept I'm having trouble resisting (or believing, but
> believe it or not, I do value your opinions:-)
>
*snip*
There are quieter vacuums available for reasonable amounts, but they're
not as quiet as the more expensive ones. However, chances are good the
reduction in noise isn't what drives the price up, it's HEPA
certification.
I believe both the Fein and Festool vacs are HEPA certified.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
Leon wrote:
>
> with a shop vac specifically it may not matter with with your
> customers. The last kitchen reface job I worked on was with my
> customer taking a nap in the bedroom 15' away, while I was going
> through 3 grits of sand paper. No dust and quiet enough for him to
> take a nap. And then I probably got paid more for the job so that my
> customer did not have to put up with a screaming vac. so again, the
> right tools in the right hands are worth the extra cost. It is all
> relative.
While I will not dispute this claim, I do have to say I am surprised. I can
sleep through a train wreck, but someone sanding and vacumming 15' away -
wow! THAT would certainly impress me. And I can sleep - as I've said. I
cannot immagine that the sound of the sandpaper alone would not have been
more than enough to wake me up. Something about this experience does not
strike me as "normal". Sorry Leon - but I know how much sound the sandpaper
makes - even if applied by hand. And you just cannot convince me that
Festool or any other tool can reduce that to such a level that anyone (or
perhaps better said... everyone) can sleep through it at 15 ft. Like so
many other things - one off encounters are worth something but they do not
make make a real case.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 23:34:44 -0400, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:24:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>Don't take this the wrong way but until you actually do this for a
>>living you have no idea. Time is money, you should know this and beyond
>>any other feature the Festool tools in large are extreme time savers.
>
>I think it all comes down to the money Leon and the naysayers are
>afraid of spending the money and then regretting it.
The *only* time I've ever regretted buying a tool was when it didn't do the
job I bought it for, usually because it was a crappy tool. I've never
regretted paying "too much" for a tool that did what I wanted it to do.
<...>
Leon wrote:
>
> In case I am that poster, I absolutely do not take exception to
> questions and welcome them. I will give you "MY" experience answers,
> not what some one else has said, unless I qualify/identify, with that
> some one else said. What I get irritated with is the same question
> about the same thing from another angle when presented in an
> argumentative fashion. I am not selling and you can take my answers
> or leave them, I have nothing to gain with proving anything I say.
>>
>
Nope - you are not that poster. I pretty much enjoy the dialog with you -
except when you whiz a piece of humor right over my head... Perhaps though,
my interest can become tedious - point taken. Don't view my questions as
argumentative though - they are not intended to be so.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Jack wrote:
>>
>> I don't think you understand that a monopoly is not only good, but is
>> sanctioned and encouraged by the Constitution of the United States.
>
> You are very right, I don't understand that.
Article I, Section 8
"[The Congress shall have the power...] To promote the Progress of Science
and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the
exclusive Right to their respective writings and Discoveries."
> I don't think you
> understand that there are anti-trust laws that attempt to protect the
> public from unethical marketing practices that result in the public
> getting hosed, and MS is a PERFECT example of why these laws exist.
>
Forgive me, but I don't see how MS is an example of why these anti-trust
laws exist inasmuch as MS has never been found guilty of violating them.
>> Consider the poster-boy for monopolies: Standard Oil. The company
>> reduced the price of Kerosene from $3.00/gallon to less than five
>> cents. In less than three years.
>
> You do realize that if the public is limited to buying w/o
> competition, the product quality will not develop, prices will not
> reflect lowest possible, and people will end up running the worlds
> worst OS on their DT's with a dumb ass grin on their collective faces.
Heh! So explain Kerosene.
>> In the case of Microsoft, they have a competitor who is just as big
>> and powerful as it is. The competitor is Microsoft itself.
>
> There is one of your ludicrous statements again. Monopoly, what
> monopoly, I compete with myself. You are special.
Huh? I didn't say "what monopoly?" I agree that Microsoft is closeto being,
if not an acutal, monopoly. So what?
>
> If the company does
>> not produce and sell a new operating system, their revenue stream
>> virtually dries up. The company HAS to compete with itself.
>
> Yep, that's another problem with monopolies, they can sell pure junk
> and then update it slightly every once in a while to force people to
> buy new junk. With normal competition, when something is produced
> that is 100's of times better and rock solid, you either keep up or
> go under. When it doesn't work that way, you know something is
> amiss, just as the good judge Sporkin correctly determined 17 years
> ago.
1. The DC Court of Appeals said Sporkin was wrong, biased, and violated
several canons of judicial ethics. That you continue to offer the ramblings
of such a fool puts you on the wrong side of reason.
2. Nobody is forced to buy any offering of Microsoft. Period. In fact,
nobody actually WANTS a Microsoft product. What they WANT is what the
product delivers.
3. Many, many times in the real world, a product or service does not thrive
because of the qualities you mention. A product or service becomes a winner,
often, by the marketing and sales prowess of its makers. Like it or not,
that's the way our economy works.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:27:46 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 8/27/2012 9:39 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:51:44 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> there tools to rich oil men that like to brag about how much more their
>>> tool cost than your tool, and to rich bankers that just want the best
>>> vacuum cleaner made, and dollars counts, particularly at rich cocktail
>>> parties where the other rich guys get to talking (bragging) about tools
>>> and Bentleys, whilst sucking on a bottle of Montrachet 1978 from Domaine
>>> de la Romanée-Conti.
>>
>> Really, a little personal prejudice there don't you think Jack?
>
>Personal opinion based on many, many years of experience.
>
>> Someone unfamiliar with Festool and reading your comment above might
>> think people buy Festool just so they can brag about it.
>
>Well, I did mention rich bankers that wanted the best money could buy.
I'm certainly not a "rich banker" but for much of my life I couldn't afford
good so bought what I could afford (mostly Crapsman). I got sick of using the
garbage and kept them far too long because I didn't want to throw them away.
At one point I just said never again - if I can't afford good tools, I'll
simply wait until I can. I can now afford pretty much whatever I can justify
to myself. I may have to wait for a while to buy the best but if it's
important to me, that's what I buy. So, yes, I do have a couple of Festools.
There are several tools in their lineup that I just can't justify, though.
<...>
Leon wrote:
>
> I sort'a agree, there is no risk what so ever unless you consider
> liking and wanting to keep a tool you clearly can not afford. Every
> new Festool tool comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Simply
> put, those that want to argue the merits just want to argue or have no
> business spending this kind of money in the first place.
Almost every tool you buy today comes with a 30 day money back gurantee -
that is nothing special. You are starting to sound like Karl - questions
posed to you are rephrased as having been "arguments". Leon - that is not
right, nor is it even fair.
>
> If you are uncomfortable with spending the money for this caliber of
> quality tool there should be no problem, simply continue to use what
> you have or can afford. We all have been there, some of us with open
> minds have taken the chance and now know better, the tool is worth
> every penny given the need.
>
That last statement is not like you Leon. Now you are really starting to
sound like Karl. "Those of us with open minds..."????? Do you really feel
that proud of yourself, and do you really feel that those who ask questions
are that inferior to you? I had never seen this side of you before. But...
> And for those that think that a customer would not appreciate the
> difference in the quality of tools, perhaps you have reached your
> limit of expertise.
Yup - I'm just a schmuck. Forget the customer satisfaction that I have
developed over the years. Me and people like me who ask questions, must be
the lesser folks. Leon - you have transgressed...
> But for example if you had to have a tooth
> pulled would you rather have a dentist use modern equipment and
> anesthetics or would you be OK with a pair of pliers and a shot of
> whiskey?
Leon - you have a propensity for using the most wrong anologies.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Han wrote:
>
> You don't remember the Ridgid lawsuit by the guy who was a
> cardcarrying nincompoop, didm't know how to work a simple table saw
> for ripping a piece of wood? The suit that made the SawStop? I bet
> there are plenty of the kind of outfit that employed this guy ...
Are you talking about the Ryobi lawsuit? If so, that case did not make
SawStop (successful). SawStop had long before that, designed, built and
successfully marketed their own product.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 8/27/2012 3:53 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 9:00 AM, Han wrote:
>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>> There is a niche for every market, and Festools niche is prices from
>>> hell, not prices from Home Depot.
>>
>> You'll find differences of opinion.
>
> Well, in my opinion is the reason Festool never bends on price is
> because they are marketing to those that get off paying top dollar for
> their tools. What is your opinion on why they don't go on sale?
They do actually go on sale and you can get a reduced price most any day
when buying a combination. Why do they not go on sale often, they want
to protect their retailers. If every one has to sell for the same
price, all one retailer can offer over the next retailer is better
service. That is a win situation for the buyer that has the money and
wants the quality and service. Are the tools expensive, absolutely.
Are they over priced, not if your work requires a better brand tool to
give the results you are wanting. For the majority of wood hackers
Festool is way out of line. Think of a drivers ed student thinking he
needs a Indy car for his first car.
>
> Some professionals relish the tools.
>
> Some professionals drive Porsche's to work, and only a small number of
> those own Festools. I would relish a festool, but would be almost
> ashamed to tell most what it cost. The prices border, no, are, ridiculous.
I suppose that all has to do with the neighborhood you live in and the
quality of work you produce. Would you be ashamed to tell some one in
an apartment how much you paid for your home?
On 8/28/2012 9:07 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 7:56 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 8/27/2012 3:53 PM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 8/27/2012 9:00 AM, Han wrote:
>
>>> Some professionals relish the tools.
>>>
>>> Some professionals drive Porsche's to work, and only a small number of
>>> those own Festools. I would relish a festool, but would be almost
>>> ashamed to tell most what it cost. The prices border, no, are,
>>> ridiculous.
>
>> I suppose that all has to do with the neighborhood you live in
>
> Depends far more on prices that other quality tools are that will do the
> job.
>
>> and the quality of work you produce.
I guess that because you do not use Festool you really do not know any
better. We will agree to disagree.
>
> Bullshit. The quality of ones work in no way, shape or form depends on
> whether you use a shop vac or festool, a Milwaukee or festool, or even a
> Ryobi or a festool. You can sell that to guys that have their shop in
> their living room, but not to me.
with a shop vac specifically it may not matter with with your customers.
The last kitchen reface job I worked on was with my customer taking a
nap in the bedroom 15' away, while I was going through 3 grits of sand
paper. No dust and quiet enough for him to take a nap. And then I
probably got paid more for the job so that my customer did not have to
put up with a screaming vac. so again, the right tools in the right
hands are worth the extra cost. It is all relative.
>
> Would you be ashamed to tell some one in an apartment how much you paid
> for your home?
>
> If I paid 2x or more than my home is worth, yes.
Well then there you go.
Bill wrote:
>
> Apple has demonstrated, to the satisfaction of most, that when one has
> control over both the hardware and the software, better performance is
> achievable.
>
Apple has demonstrated nothing that has not already been demonstrated. Read
up on IBM. Or Date General. Or Digital Equipment Corporation, or a host of
others. Apple is merely following suit. It's still an operating system and
applications. How they look and how they act may be a bit more up to date,
but the fundamentals are still there.
> Anyway, be careful what you wish for. Double the number of available
> operating systems and watch the quality of some software drop 4-fold!
> At least, "new bugs" are mostly tended to promptly these days. The
> time to fix a problem is probably inverely-related to the numbers of
> users and the cost of the software.
Or... not.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway, be careful what you wish for. Double the number of available
>>> operating systems and watch the quality of some software drop
>>> 4-fold! At least, "new bugs" are mostly tended to promptly these
>>> days. The time to fix a problem is probably inverely-related to the
>>> numbers of users and the cost of the software.
>>
>> Or... not.
>
>
> Increase the number of platforms significantly, and some applications
> won't even be built..and those that are will cost more. And there
> will be more bankrupt software development companies. You don't
> agree?
One only has to look at the iPhone and the Android markets for the answer
that contradicts that premise.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 8/28/2012 9:45 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>
>>
>> In case I am that poster, I absolutely do not take exception to
>> questions and welcome them. I will give you "MY" experience answers,
>> not what some one else has said, unless I qualify/identify, with that
>> some one else said. What I get irritated with is the same question
>> about the same thing from another angle when presented in an
>> argumentative fashion. I am not selling and you can take my answers
>> or leave them, I have nothing to gain with proving anything I say.
>>>
>>
>
> Nope - you are not that poster. I pretty much enjoy the dialog with you -
> except when you whiz a piece of humor right over my head... Perhaps though,
> my interest can become tedious - point taken. Don't view my questions as
> argumentative though - they are not intended to be so.
>
>
OK then we are good. ;~)
On 8/28/2012 2:57 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:38:34 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>>> Festool or any other tool can reduce that to such a level that
>>> anyone (or perhaps better said... everyone) can sleep through it at
>>> 15 ft. Like so many other things - one off encounters are worth
>>> something but they do not make make a real case.
>>
>> Have you listened to a Festool dust collector? In no way shape or form
>> can you compare it's quietness to any regular shrieking shop vac.
>> Depending on the speed that one is set, it's a virtual hum. Although,
>> I don't own a Festool sander, I've listened to and used one before.
>> All it does is add another dimension to that virtual hum.
>
> Nope - I have to admit (again...) that I have never heard one. That leaves
> me open to your assertion that it is very quiet. In no way am I disputing
> that.
>
>>
>> Mike, you need to get your butt over to a Festool dealer's demo day
>> and find out for yourself. Until then all you denials and refusal to
>> agree count for nada. And similarly, until then you just don't have
>> any basis to disagree with what's been said to you about Festool.
>
> Stop. You sound like Karl. A little reading comprehension would benefit
> the both of you. In no post have I either denied or refused to agree on
> anything. I have asked a lot of questions out of genuine interest, and
> tried to position my own needs. I have never disagreed with what has been
> said to me. Geeze - this is a text group, which implies a certain level of
> reading comprehension...
Just do it, a Festool in hand is worth a brazilian answers/explanations.
>
> I think that questions make Festool owners feel guilty...
>
Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:10:08 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> Yup - I'm just a schmuck. Forget the customer satisfaction that I
>> have developed over the years. Me and people like me who ask
>> questions, must be the lesser folks. Leon - you have transgressed...
>
> Don't agree. You're reading too much into what he had to say.
Perhaps - it does happen in usenet. If so - I apologize to Leon.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:01:33 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Most everyone knew you were an idiot long before you 'bared your
>> soul'
>
> And there goes Jack. His all encompassing lack of humour is perfect
> for his main gripe in life ~ SawStop and Steve Gass.
>
> Jack was at a low point before SawStop and Gass appeared on the scene,
> but now, everyday for Jack is one of indeterminable horror.
>
> I only have on wish in life. That wish is that Steven Gass buys the
> property next to where Jack lives and turns it into a SawStop
> manufacturing facility.
Dude - you really brought that to a personal level...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:30:01 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 8/27/2012 12:15 PM, Han wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> So far all of my Festool purchases have been warranted. What qualifies
>>> as warranted is still up in the air. LOL
>>
>> No economics for a hobbyist, but I like the Domino I have, and so does my
>> daughter! The Rotex 95 may need a new pad, I think I destroyed some of the
>> hooks that hold the paper to the pad.
>>
>
>
>LOL, Ok now I will never again admit this but I sanded with my Rotex
>thinking it had paper on it. It did not. No worse for wear.
>
>The pads will poop out though, usually the whole hook side will separate
>from the foam part of the pad. You will for sure know when that
>happens. ;~)
I can remember years ago in a discussion on how we both loved our PC
block sanders I think the 333 or something like that. No dust
collection so always a mess. When I first got my Rotek sander I had
to keep feeling the surface to be sure it was working. There wasn't
any sawdust. Should have listened to you on the Rikon bandsaw.
Unfortunately broke my foot on the day I got it so I still have it.
Mike M
On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 23:47:38 -0400, Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 01:37:49 GMT, basilisk <[email protected]>
>>Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell out the
>>bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>>
>>When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts, his exact
>>words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
>
> If you were the owner/inventor and had a product that performed a
> particular function, a product that people wanted and were already
> buying, would you offer a discount? Would you need to offer a discount.
>
> I can see your reasoning ~ getting additional customers = greater
> profits. But, Festool's whole line of products is premised on doing
> functions that most other products can do, but doing it better, cleaner
> and faster. And unfortunately, offering those products at a higher price
> point.
>
> Unfortunately for the lay person, there's Festool stock owners somewhere
> laughing all the way to the bank.
I wasn't disappointed that they didn't have show discounts, but you never
know until you ask, and if there had been a 10% discount I would have no
longer been in control of my wallet.
A lot of companies do show discounts, Keller dovetail jigs were
discounted 15% at the show.
By the way the Keller jigs are a hefty well made product that seems
to work flawlessly in trained hands.
basilisk
--
A wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse
On 8/27/2012 12:15 PM, Han wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> So far all of my Festool purchases have been warranted. What qualifies
>> as warranted is still up in the air. LOL
>
> No economics for a hobbyist, but I like the Domino I have, and so does my
> daughter! The Rotex 95 may need a new pad, I think I destroyed some of the
> hooks that hold the paper to the pad.
>
LOL, Ok now I will never again admit this but I sanded with my Rotex
thinking it had paper on it. It did not. No worse for wear.
The pads will poop out though, usually the whole hook side will separate
from the foam part of the pad. You will for sure know when that
happens. ;~)
On 8/28/2012 11:28 PM, Mike M wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:30:01 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/27/2012 12:15 PM, Han wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> So far all of my Festool purchases have been warranted. What qualifies
>>>> as warranted is still up in the air. LOL
>>>
>>> No economics for a hobbyist, but I like the Domino I have, and so does my
>>> daughter! The Rotex 95 may need a new pad, I think I destroyed some of the
>>> hooks that hold the paper to the pad.
>>>
>>
>>
>> LOL, Ok now I will never again admit this but I sanded with my Rotex
>> thinking it had paper on it. It did not. No worse for wear.
>>
>> The pads will poop out though, usually the whole hook side will separate
>>from the foam part of the pad. You will for sure know when that
>> happens. ;~)
>
> I can remember years ago in a discussion on how we both loved our PC
> block sanders I think the 333 or something like that. No dust
> collection so always a mess. When I first got my Rotek sander I had
> to keep feeling the surface to be sure it was working. There wasn't
> any sawdust. Should have listened to you on the Rikon bandsaw.
> Unfortunately broke my foot on the day I got it so I still have it.
>
> Mike M
>
Those 333 PC sanders were great, they would make a pile of dust, quick!
but man was there a lot of dust. ;~)
I darn near broke my food the day I got my Rikon, the cast iron table
fell on my foot.
On 8/27/2012 10:34 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:24:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> Don't take this the wrong way but until you actually do this for a
>> living you have no idea. Time is money, you should know this and beyond
>> any other feature the Festool tools in large are extreme time savers.
>
> I think it all comes down to the money Leon and the naysayers are
> afraid of spending the money and then regretting it.
>
> Since almost all Festool dealers hold Festool days where you can go
> and try your desired tool out, there's no reason not to do so. The
> only reason people haven't done so is fear ~ fear of opening their
> wallets.
>
> Money is always what it comes down to and I'd guess why Festool keeps
> their products priced where they do. If they were cheaper and priced
> competitively with the other manufacturers on the market, those
> manufacturers would be forced to better their stuff to compete. Then
> Festool *would* lose market share.
>
I sort'a agree, there is no risk what so ever unless you consider liking
and wanting to keep a tool you clearly can not afford. Every new
Festool tool comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Simply put,
those that want to argue the merits just want to argue or have no
business spending this kind of money in the first place.
If you are uncomfortable with spending the money for this caliber of
quality tool there should be no problem, simply continue to use what you
have or can afford. We all have been there, some of us with open minds
have taken the chance and now know better, the tool is worth every penny
given the need.
And for those that think that a customer would not appreciate the
difference in the quality of tools, perhaps you have reached your limit
of expertise. But for example if you had to have a tooth pulled would
you rather have a dentist use modern equipment and anesthetics or would
you be OK with a pair of pliers and a shot of whiskey?
On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 16:21:40 +0000, lucasP wrote:
> 'basilisk[_2_ Wrote:
>> ;2916596']Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell
>> out the bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>>
>> When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts, his exact
>> words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
>>
>> basilisk
>>
>>
>> --
>> A wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse
>
> Hello everyone, i am the one reffered to as the "Festool Guy " at the
> 2012 IWF show, just to clear a few things up, i was not working for
> festool or 'Tools for Working Wood: Welcome'
> (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com) who actually paid for the booth, im
> a cabinet builder who was subcontracted out by toolsforworkingwood in
> effort to show how much they as a retailer care about you as a client
> that they are willing to shell out upwards of 10k to demo tools for you
> and answer most questions to the best of their ability, they have
> invested tons of time and effort into creating the conveniance of a
> mobile site but without loosing the personal touch of a family ran
> establishment, how many other retailers can you say the same for? With
> that being said all the tools you saw at my booth were tools that belong
> to me, minus a few sanders and the router table, i paid full retail
> price for these tools hence my statement...now as far as your comment
> about having a show special, festool just like any other company doesnt
> want to start giving discounts because they dont want to devalue their
> tool, they want you to base your decision of where to buy not by how
> much of a discount you can get but by how good the dealer is, their
> knowledge of the tools and their customer service... Try calling amazon
> and asking them if you can use a 1/4" collet in your 2200 router, their
> honest opinion about the surefix.... I have been to dealerships who have
> one employee that was sent to festool training who is a total burnout
> and cant even answer which sandpaper to use on bare wood. Now in my
> opinion when your spending 600 bucks on a dust extractor i would love to
> have someone tell me why its worth that 600, tell me its features and
> benefits and how it is intergradable with other festool products and
> even other brand tools... Rather than hearing here it is, on /off, 600$
> so you want it? sales aspect aside, what about the aftermath? Yes all
> festools are built solid with the best of parts and most likely you will
> not need repairs or service but if something does go wrong festool is
> there and they always have been in my experiance, you call, they have
> answers, they will send you parts, the guy you speak on the phone with
> will most likely be the same guy that will be working on your machine.
> then we have the tool price it self, development, testing, marketing
> etc... Makita and dewalt ripped off festool tracksaw, would i buy either
> those brands? Absolutely not, for a few reasons, one they are still POS
> tools made in china with inferior parts. Once the prices go down so does
> everything else along with it, as a cabinet builder the only time i can
> drop my price is if i use cheaper materials because my labor will not
> change, so i most likely will thank you and walk away from the project
> because i refuse to put my hard work into an inferior end product, if
> you want to compete for jobs with the laborers that stand in front of
> big box stores you might as well stick to buying tools from those same
> stores as well.
> Regards
> Lucas
Lucas.
I am the OP of this thread, I was not angered nor offended
by your statement to me at IWF, nor were you rude, it was just odd
that you were so blunt. OK, you're a cabinet maker and not a slick
tool salesman. I have been known to be blunt myself.
No offense taken and I hope none given.
The main point was that Festool gives "no one" discounts.
I do understand the value of Festool products an there pricing
structure, hence my asking about discounts, if I had happened up
on the one time in history that an individual Festool product was
discounted, I would have bought then in place of waiting.
I buy what I can justify, either from sheer desire or from actual
need to produce, I can justify a domino on both counts.
By the way the domino xl is a helluva machine.
I noticed that you were posting from diybanter, why not get a real
newsreader and join us.
basilisk
--
A wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse
On 8/27/2012 9:05 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
>>
>> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
>> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
>> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
>> it was.
>
> As long as you are cutting Dominos. How does that help with the larger
> percentage of the work done on site? Think circular saws, table saws,
> drills, sanders, etc.? I just can't see where this green stuff is that
> significantly better in the real world of working on a total project.
>
Don't take this the wrong way but until you actually do this for a
living you have no idea. Time is money, you should know this and beyond
any other feature the Festool tools in large are extreme time savers.
On 8/27/2012 9:30 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Dave wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
>>> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
>>> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
>>> it was.
>>
>> As long as you are cutting Dominos. How does that help with the larger
>> percentage of the work done on site? Think circular saws, table saws,
>> drills, sanders, etc.? I just can't see where this green stuff is that
>> significantly better in the real world of working on a total project.
>
> Can't beat a track saw for cutting sheet goods accurately.
>
AND the cut being the final cut. And that is not just a Festool thing
any more, the Makita and DeWalt saws can do this now also although I
could not testify as to which works better in all aspects.
On 8/27/2012 10:07 AM, Han wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I am not sure about the router table, I don't have a Festool router yet
>> and the table is probably designed for that particular router. My Bench
>> dog router table and Triton router work very well together, for now. ;~)
>
> <http://blog.festoolusa.com/post/2012/08/25/The-New-CMS-Router-Table-
> Coming-October-2012.aspx> or
> http://tinyurl.com/9j8f2um
>
> It's a slippery slope ...
>
I am going to try not to attempt to fix what ain't broke. :~)
So far all of my Festool purchases have been warranted. What qualifies
as warranted is still up in the air. LOL
On 8/27/2012 8:09 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> On 8/27/2012 3:27 PM, Jack wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I never saw anyone actually use one but I've been out of the loop for
>>> years. However, several months ago when we had the same basic
>>> discussion, I was at my favorite low class watering hole that was
>>> having a club election and was packed with people I knew. 6 of them
>>> were tradesman, 2 general contractors, one carpenter one drywall
>>> guy, and a body man and a mechanic. 3 were in the business for
>>> around 50 years, and still working. 3 were mid forties and only
>>> been doing it for 20 some years. I asked each one of them about
>>> Festools, and only one ever heard of them. He was a contractor and
>>> he said he didn't own any because they cost too much.
>>
>> Do any of these guys at your "low class watering hole" make a handsome
>> living, wish that they could retire? Is this low class watering hole
>> a level or two above sitting under a bridge with homeless people
>> drinking ripple? What quality of tools do you think the homeless
>> use, do you think that perhaps they would think what you pay for
>> tools is too much? It is all relative.
>>
>
> Geezus Leon... I'm sure most people wish they could retire. Please don't
> say you are associating Festool with the aspiration of retirement. Why
> would you even go on with your next statement? Come on Leon - that just
> ain't like you. You have to admit - and you have, many times... that you
> have turned out great work with lesser tools. Festool may offer you some
> perceived advantage, but it is not the magical thing you and Swingman are
> starting to make it sound like. Be honest - outside of a one-off here and
> there (which might have been accomplished another way with a different
> tool), just how much extra money has Festool made you? How much increase in
> revenue? Let's face it - the success of your business is you - not your
> tools.
>
I am just pointing out that the real thing can be any income of people
in the same profession. Those that do well in their profession tend to
have the ability to retire earlier should they do so. they also tend to
spend more their tools. Just because you are a pro does not mean that
you are good at what you do. There is a good chance that there is a pro
doing the same thing as you and is much more successful.
Ok I am pretty good, but my $600 track saw keeps me from having to hire
some one to help my cut up plywood panels to finish sizes quickly. The
Domino lets me cut hundreds of mortises in an hour or so, try that with
the typical bench mortiser. I can do all sanding inside my customers
home with out having to do much clean up and he does not have to listen
to a screaming shop vac, think kitchen refacing. So yes, I would say in
terms of accuracy and speed my Festool power tools have paid for
themselves time and again. And yes the success of my business is me, me
choosing the best tools to afford me the best results and time saved.
walking to 15 miles to work everyday instead of driving. Is that
seriously going to work? Your car saves you commute time and you arrive
to work rested vs. having just finished a 15 mile walk. Using your car
as a tool, don't you think it is pretty effective in helping you get
your work done on a more timely basis and a car is certainly an
expensive tool.
>>
>>>
>>> I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool,
>>> but I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys
>>> are not as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.
>>
>> I would not actually call those at the "low class watering hole" the
>> real thing just because they don't use Festool. When I was in the
>> automotive business, specifically the new car dealership business, I
>> was the service sales manager. I had 35-40 mechanics and several
>> made very good livings. One in particular was about two years
>> younger than me, 27, and very often was the subject of conversation
>> at the owner/management meeting held weekly. This particular
>> mechanic very often made more money per month than the owner. We are
>> talking in excess of $10K per month in 1983 dollars. He was truly
>> the real thing too and bought the finest tools offered.
>
> And do you really think that is what made him "the real thing"? I doubt it.
> He was the real thing because he knew his stuff and could deliver it with
> nothing more than a hammer and a paper clip. That talent is what made him.
> He choice of tools was only secondary to those skills. It was those skills
> that you were observing - not his choice of tools.
>
Sure he is talented but maybe if he had better tools he would be more
efferent and productive, maybe not because even a burger flipper
working on the first day of his first job is a pro.
Until you actually use the better tools you really have no true
knowledge of their benefits.
On 8/30/2012 12:13 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 8/29/2012 10:28 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> But besides the dust collection the Rotex will darn near keep up with a
>> belt sander in its aggressive mode with similar grit sand paper.
>
> This is the feature that grabs my interest. I think my sander is
> starting to act up a little, and sometimes goes into low speed mode.
> Sometimes it jumps around a bit, which I thought was a power issue, but
> you think it is too much suction. I don't think I get too much suction,
> the small hose seems to limit that enough, but I wouldn't bet the farm
> on that.
Not sure if too much suction would necessarily be your problem with a
different type sander, remember the Festool also blows air through the
center hole, that air has to go some where and too much suction would
cause it top hop, so to speak.
>
>> The thing runs circles around any other ROS in that mode.
>
> I like that part. Fast is what I want when it comes to sanding.
> Actually, I'd rather get someone else to sand, or not sand at all. I
> hate building big stuff mostly cause I hate sanding (and staining) big
> stuff. Spraying finish I don't mind. Well, I do like sanding and
> finishing on my lathe, that's fast and rather enjoyable.
>
> Coupled with a Festool vac and perhaps a Fein vac you will only hear the
> sander
>> running, while that may not seem important, it is a very nice feature
>> that is a pleasant added feature. Basically no noise fatigue, part of
>> what makes sanding more fun. ;~)
>
> Yeah, and I'm going to stop reading you... You are like a car salesman,
> safer to avoid contact...
>
Yeah well, when sanding 4~6 hours at a time, the lack of noise and not
having to wear hearing protection is a welcome feature for me.
On 8/26/2012 8:32 AM, Han wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 8/25/2012 8:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
>>>
>>> Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell
>>> out the bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>>>
>>> When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts,
>>> his exact words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
>>>
>>> basilisk
>>
>> If those were his exact words, he was being tacky.
>>
>> But Festool has one price. The only way to get a reduced price that I
>> know of is either buying at an introductory price, buying in
>> combination with a Festool Vac, buying a reduced discontinued item,
>> buying from a company that is going out of business/no longer going to
>> carry Festool, and or IIRC buying the occasional refurbished unit
>> directly from Festool.
>>
>> Their tools are worth every penny you spend and are a good value if
>> you actually have a need for this quality of tool.
>>
>> The good thing about paying the same price as every one else,
>> regardless of where you live, is that you do not have to worry that
>> you are paying more than what you would pay anywhere else. Support
>> your local dealer!
>>
>> Is Festool expensive? Yes, to some. Is PC expensive? Yes, to some.
>> Is Ryopbi expensive? Yes, to some. Is Harbor Freight expensive?
>> Yes, to some.
>
> Exactly. They are introducing some new tools for sale starting in
> October. Watch the sales Leon mentioned. And do support your local
> dealer.
>
Hey Han, have you seen the NEW Festool Impact Driver? Huh, did ya, did
ya? LOL
On 8/28/2012 2:38 PM, Leon wrote:
> When did you change over to a computer?? ;~)
IIRC, Jack may still use OS/2. ;)
http://jbstein.com/
(IIRC, I have a dim recollection of Jack on the Fido OS/2 echo back in
the old days of computing ... I'd bet Mark Lewis and Lynn Nash ring a
bell, eh Jack?)
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 8/25/2012 8:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
>>
>> Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell
>> out the bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>>
>> When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts,
>> his exact words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
>>
>> basilisk
>
> If those were his exact words, he was being tacky.
>
> But Festool has one price. The only way to get a reduced price that I
> know of is either buying at an introductory price, buying in
> combination with a Festool Vac, buying a reduced discontinued item,
> buying from a company that is going out of business/no longer going to
> carry Festool, and or IIRC buying the occasional refurbished unit
> directly from Festool.
>
> Their tools are worth every penny you spend and are a good value if
> you actually have a need for this quality of tool.
>
> The good thing about paying the same price as every one else,
> regardless of where you live, is that you do not have to worry that
> you are paying more than what you would pay anywhere else. Support
> your local dealer!
>
> Is Festool expensive? Yes, to some. Is PC expensive? Yes, to some.
> Is Ryopbi expensive? Yes, to some. Is Harbor Freight expensive?
> Yes, to some.
Exactly. They are introducing some new tools for sale starting in
October. Watch the sales Leon mentioned. And do support your local
dealer.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 07:11:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>On 8/28/2012 11:28 PM, Mike M wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:30:01 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/27/2012 12:15 PM, Han wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> So far all of my Festool purchases have been warranted. What qualifies
>>>>> as warranted is still up in the air. LOL
>>>>
>>>> No economics for a hobbyist, but I like the Domino I have, and so does my
>>>> daughter! The Rotex 95 may need a new pad, I think I destroyed some of the
>>>> hooks that hold the paper to the pad.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> LOL, Ok now I will never again admit this but I sanded with my Rotex
>>> thinking it had paper on it. It did not. No worse for wear.
>>>
>>> The pads will poop out though, usually the whole hook side will separate
>>>from the foam part of the pad. You will for sure know when that
>>> happens. ;~)
>>
>> I can remember years ago in a discussion on how we both loved our PC
>> block sanders I think the 333 or something like that. No dust
>> collection so always a mess. When I first got my Rotek sander I had
>> to keep feeling the surface to be sure it was working. There wasn't
>> any sawdust. Should have listened to you on the Rikon bandsaw.
>> Unfortunately broke my foot on the day I got it so I still have it.
>>
>> Mike M
>>
>
>Those 333 PC sanders were great, they would make a pile of dust, quick!
> but man was there a lot of dust. ;~)
>I darn near broke my food the day I got my Rikon, the cast iron table
>fell on my foot.
>
>
>
I still have one that functions pretty well. I broke mine unloading
tool and parts boxes without help so I could go pick the Rikon up.
Tried to slide it down a 2x8 out of the pickup and the board slid too.
Gravity was faster then me. That was a painful afternoon. Fortunetly
it had a lifting eye and I had a boom truck at home. Got it in the
shop and called it a day. That's a heavy table to drop on your foot
you were lucky.
Mike M
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 8/26/2012 8:32 AM, Han wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On 8/25/2012 8:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell
>>>> out the bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>>>>
>>>> When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts,
>>>> his exact words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
>>>>
>>>> basilisk
>>>
>>> If those were his exact words, he was being tacky.
>>>
>>> But Festool has one price. The only way to get a reduced price that
>>> I know of is either buying at an introductory price, buying in
>>> combination with a Festool Vac, buying a reduced discontinued item,
>>> buying from a company that is going out of business/no longer going
>>> to carry Festool, and or IIRC buying the occasional refurbished unit
>>> directly from Festool.
>>>
>>> Their tools are worth every penny you spend and are a good value if
>>> you actually have a need for this quality of tool.
>>>
>>> The good thing about paying the same price as every one else,
>>> regardless of where you live, is that you do not have to worry that
>>> you are paying more than what you would pay anywhere else. Support
>>> your local dealer!
>>>
>>> Is Festool expensive? Yes, to some. Is PC expensive? Yes, to
>>> some. Is Ryopbi expensive? Yes, to some. Is Harbor Freight
>>> expensive? Yes, to some.
>>
>> Exactly. They are introducing some new tools for sale starting in
>> October. Watch the sales Leon mentioned. And do support your local
>> dealer.
>>
>
>
> Hey Han, have you seen the NEW Festool Impact Driver? Huh, did ya,
> did ya? LOL
I saw something like that in the email I got. Seems like that is an
essential pice of equipment for you and Karl. What about the router
table?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 8/25/2012 11:47 PM, Dave wrote:
>
>> I can see your reasoning ~ getting additional customers = greater
>> profits. But, Festool's whole line of products is premised on doing
>> functions that most other products can do, but doing it better,
>> cleaner and faster.
>
> That's a part of it.
>
> And unfortunately, offering those products at a higher price point.
>
> That's the other part, and the reason you won't see Festering Tools on
> sale, and also why they are rarely used by professionals. They market
> there tools to rich oil men that like to brag about how much more
> their tool cost than your tool, and to rich bankers that just want the
> best vacuum cleaner made, and dollars counts, particularly at rich
> cocktail parties where the other rich guys get to talking (bragging)
> about tools and Bentleys, whilst sucking on a bottle of Montrachet
> 1978 from Domaine de la Romanée-Conti.
>
> In other words, part of the shtick is pricing from hell. Sort of like
> joining a country club that cost $50g's a year, plus $300 for a round
> of golf, and a 1.50 beer costs $9.
>
>> Unfortunately for the lay person, there's Festool stock owners
>> somewhere laughing all the way to the bank.
>
> There is a niche for every market, and Festools niche is prices from
> hell, not prices from Home Depot.
You'll find differences of opinion. Some professionals relish the tools.
But I can see that companies hiring half-baked workers would prefer to
have them abuse cheap tools.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I am not sure about the router table, I don't have a Festool router yet
> and the table is probably designed for that particular router. My Bench
> dog router table and Triton router work very well together, for now. ;~)
<http://blog.festoolusa.com/post/2012/08/25/The-New-CMS-Router-Table-
Coming-October-2012.aspx> or
http://tinyurl.com/9j8f2um
It's a slippery slope ...
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> So far all of my Festool purchases have been warranted. What qualifies
> as warranted is still up in the air. LOL
No economics for a hobbyist, but I like the Domino I have, and so does my
daughter! The Rotex 95 may need a new pad, I think I destroyed some of the
hooks that hold the paper to the pad.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 8/27/2012 9:00 AM, Han wrote:
>> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>> There is a niche for every market, and Festools niche is prices from
>>> hell, not prices from Home Depot.
>>
>> You'll find differences of opinion.
>
> Well, in my opinion is the reason Festool never bends on price is
> because they are marketing to those that get off paying top dollar for
> their tools. What is your opinion on why they don't go on sale?
But they do go on sale such as preintro, reconditioned, combo. Take your
pick. But, no they don't have MSRP, they set a price. In a way, that
measn I will choose the place with the best service or inventory.
> Some professionals relish the tools.
>
> Some professionals drive Porsche's to work, and only a small number of
> those own Festools. I would relish a festool, but would be almost
> ashamed to tell most what it cost. The prices border, no, are,
> ridiculous.
Have you ever used a Festool tool? I am a rank amateur, but really like
the Festools I have.
>> But I can see that companies hiring half-baked workers would prefer
>> to have them abuse cheap tools.
>
> That's not been my experience. First, the trades frown on half baked
> workers, a half baked worker is more of a Government position, not the
> skilled trades.
You don't remember the Ridgid lawsuit by the guy who was a cardcarrying
nincompoop, didm't know how to work a simple table saw for ripping a
piece of wood? The suit that made the SawStop? I bet there are plenty
of the kind of outfit that employed this guy ...
> Cheap tools seldom make it into skilled trades. But, they don't often
> blow wads of money for the heck of it. You will find more Fords than
> you will Bentleys at the construction site. Have you ever been near a
> construction site?
My home was a construction site when we remodeled. I'm sure the GC
didn't really like we kept living in it while the work was going on.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On 9/2/2012 4:53 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 16:21:40 +0000, lucasP
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Hello everyone, i am the one reffered to as the "Festool Guy " at the
>> 2012 IWF show, just to clear a few things up, i was not working for
>> festool or 'Tools for Working Wood: Welcome'
>> (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com) who actually paid for the booth, im
>> a cabinet builder who was subcontracted out by toolsforworkingwood in
>> effort to show how much they as a retailer care about you as a client
>> that they are willing to shell out upwards of 10k to demo tools for you
>> and answer most questions to the best of their ability, they have
>> invested tons of time and effort into creating the conveniance of a
>> mobile site but without loosing the personal touch of a family ran
>> establishment, how many other retailers can you say the same for?
>
> Thank you for the clarification.
>
>
>> With
>> that being said all the tools you saw at my booth were tools that belong
>> to me, minus a few sanders and the router table, i paid full retail
>> price for these tools hence my statement...now as far as your comment
>> about having a show special, festool just like any other company doesnt
>> want to start giving discounts because they dont want to devalue their
>> tool, they want you to base your decision of where to buy not by how
>> much of a discount you can get but by how good the dealer is, their
>> knowledge of the tools and their customer service...
>
> You make a good point, but there is one thing that still bugs me. Not
> just Festool, but many others like them.
>
> I agree that it takes a lot of overhead to properly stock, display,
> demonstrate, etc. and you deserve to make a fair profit. You must make
> profit to stay in business and serve customers in the future.
>
> No one, IMO, has the right to tell you how much to sell your goods
> for. If the MSREP is $600, if you provide exceptional service maybe
> you can get $630. But if you want to sell it for $550, that is your
> business too.
>
>
> Try calling amazon
>> and asking them if you can use a 1/4" collet in your 2200 router, their
>> honest opinion about the surefix.... I have been to dealerships who have
>> one employee that was sent to festool training who is a total burnout
>> and cant even answer which sandpaper to use on bare wood.
>
> And they expect me to pay that twit full retail price?
>
>
>> Now in my
>> opinion when your spending 600 bucks on a dust extractor i would love to
>> have someone tell me why its worth that 600, tell me its features and
>> benefits and how it is intergradable with other festool products and
>> even other brand tools... Rather than hearing here it is, on /off, 600$
>> so you want it?
>
> If I've done my research, perhaps that is all that is needed. To be
> fair, I won't take an hour of your time at the full price dealer and
> then go to the discounter to buy and save a few bucks. That is
> unethical, yet done every day. I don't know how to stop it.
>
FWIW I have never heard a Festool retailer complain about the fixed
pricing structure. The never loose a sale to someone selling for less.
It saves and protects them from spending time with you and loosing the
sale to someone selling cheaper. That eventually degrades the brand.
Few to none of the once great brands we all know has the quality
reputation that Festool enjoys. No retailer wants to sell for less,
that cuts into profits and means he will not offer you as much in
service. The fixed pricing is good for the retailer and for you. The
retailer makes his profit and you rest assured that the price you pay at
your favorite dealer is the best price available.
And then when you actually buy the tool and use it the cost of the tool
some how seems to be justified and you generally don't give it a second
thought.
This might be the reason that those that complain about the cost of
Festool and don't actually use the product complain. They think that
they are going to get the same product as the brand X tool which they
paid significantly less for.
On 8/28/2012 9:09 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 9:57 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:27:46 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool, but
>>> I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys are not
>>> as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.
>>
>> Many of their responses might be dependent on the type of contractors
>> they were.
>
> This is true. Two contractors did things like small building, garages,
> homes, home additions, kitchen, bath remodeling, that sort of stuff. One
> of those was the only guy that had ever heard of festool but didn't own
> them. Two were carpenters, one was a dry wall contractor, one a
> professional body man. All are very, very professional and all are
> around tools and people that use them professionally. I was a bit
> surprised they didn't even know what festools were. That means not only
> didn't they use them, but no one else around them used them. You can
> bet every one of them know what Milwaukee is, what snap on is, and so
> on. I'd bet you would be hard pressed to name a brand, other than
> festool they didn't know all about. That even surprised me.
So you see Jack, even those "very, very professionals" don't know all
there is to know about the tools available in the the line of work they
are in. That surprises you, that does not surprise me. Not to say that
some of your guys are not the absolute best in their field but no one
knows it all or is above doing better. Most pro's tend to become
accustomed to one way of doing things after 20~30 years and simply have
no tolerance for change. Having been in the service industry all of my
life this is a know fact. Generally speaking there are exceptions, and
those guys tend to be the ones that improve and not satisfied with the
status quo.
>
> But, just speaking about the Domino here, it would be
>> really interesting to take your representative three contractors and
>> show them what the Domino could do along side a biscuit joiner.
>
> I don't know what a domino does that I'd need it for, and I'm a cabinet
> maker? It's not a tool I dream about, much like I have no need for a
> nail gun. If you want to give me a festool, I think I'd like the a
> sander, but only because Leon said it makes sanding fun. That I'd like.
Let me ask you this. Would you like to build all of your cabinet face
frames/frame and panel doors with mortise and tennon joints, do you
think that would be better than pocket hole screws or biscuits if it was
accomplished in the same amount of time or less? If you are adding
1.5"~2" wide borders, rails and stiles, to 3/4" plywood panels would you
rather use mortise and tenons over pocket holes screws and biscuits if
the could be done in the same or less amount of time? Do you think
mortise and tenon joints would be stronger than pocket hole and or
biscuit joints?
This is what the Domino does to name a few. Or do you think that
biscuits and pocket hole screws are good enough?
>
>> Similarly, and again dependent on the type of contracting they did, I
>> wonder how interested they'd be in some apparently regular sounding
>> products that were mostly dust free.
>
> Since you mentioned it, I asked the drywall contractor about the Festool
> drywall sander. He said no one uses drywall sanders and laughed at me.
> Regarding dust, he said when he makes dust, someone else cleans it up.
> When he has to clean up, he makes no dust.
Given his answer of "no one uses dry wall sanders" do you believe that
to be the actual truth? FWIW I don't know of any one that uses dry wall
sanders either. I am not about to think that Festool is only selling
dry wall sanders to hobbyist and millionaires.
>
>> I haven't done any home contracting for near thirty five years, but I
>> *do* remember how much of a pain it was when working onsite in a
>> client's home to keep it dust free.
>
> Festool hasn't changed that. Home contracting usually starts with a
> sledge hammer and sawzall. Does Festool make a dust free sledge or
> sawzall?
I can assure you a competent contractor is not going to leave a heaping
mess in a clients home every night, especially when the job runs into
the tens of thousands of dollars over several weeks.
So when the time comes to start the reconstruction if there is a chance
of not having to do a major dust clean up the smarter contractor is
going to take advantage of that.
>
>> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
>> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
>> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
>> it was.
>
> Yeah, right. I forgot, your Kreg jig makes no dust with a $500 festering
> vac sucking up all those nasty drill filings. Youse guys kill me.
>
And probably the reason there is a market for guys like us rather than
you. I think you fall in the category of one that has become accustomed
to one way of doing things after 20~30 years and simply have no
tolerance for change.
When did you change over to a computer?? ;~)
On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:01:33 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>Most everyone knew you were an idiot long before you 'bared your soul'
And there goes Jack. His all encompassing lack of humour is perfect
for his main gripe in life ~ SawStop and Steve Gass.
Jack was at a low point before SawStop and Gass appeared on the scene,
but now, everyday for Jack is one of indeterminable horror.
I only have on wish in life. That wish is that Steven Gass buys the
property next to where Jack lives and turns it into a SawStop
manufacturing facility.
Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 07:13:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult.
>> I can hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops
>> up with a mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of
>> mere curiosity more than anything else. Do you guys have secret
>> chants and all that stuff?...
>
> Well, I can't stand to hide the facts any longer. The truth is that we
> are all a cult of the ashamed.
>
> Each of us is ashamed that some sponsor (like Leon) talked us (me)
> into buying Festool. We are ashamed that we spent money on something
> we didn't really need and is pretty useless from the get go. And, we
> are ashamed with our buyer's remorse.
>
> You see Mike, Festool products don't live up to our expectations at
> all, but we're too embarrassed to admit it. So, we all banded together
> and decided to tell everybody how great Festool is. That way, we can
> collect more gullible Festool buyers. The greater our number, the
> better these useless Festool products look to the general public and
> the easier it is to hide are embarrassment at being duped.
>
> Festool is really a pyramid scheme to sell faulty tools and created by
> some lowly (but now richer than Dog) stock boy who was employed by
> them before they became famous.
>
I KNEW IT!!!!!
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 07:13:45 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult. I can
>hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops up with a
>mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of mere curiosity more
>than anything else. Do you guys have secret chants and all that stuff?...
Well, I can't stand to hide the facts any longer. The truth is that we
are all a cult of the ashamed.
Each of us is ashamed that some sponsor (like Leon) talked us (me)
into buying Festool. We are ashamed that we spent money on something
we didn't really need and is pretty useless from the get go. And, we
are ashamed with our buyer's remorse.
You see Mike, Festool products don't live up to our expectations at
all, but we're too embarrassed to admit it. So, we all banded together
and decided to tell everybody how great Festool is. That way, we can
collect more gullible Festool buyers. The greater our number, the
better these useless Festool products look to the general public and
the easier it is to hide are embarrassment at being duped.
Festool is really a pyramid scheme to sell faulty tools and created by
some lowly (but now richer than Dog) stock boy who was employed by
them before they became famous.
So, there you have it. I've bared my soul. Dog help me.
(Sorry about the Dog comments, I'm a little dyslexic.)
Dave wrote:
>
> My main interest in woodworking is cabinetmaking. Although I haven't
> done it professionally for quite a few years, to the greatest extent,
> I've used the same tried and true actions and tools to build my
> cabinets. That's changed marginally over the years.
>
> Enter the Domino. Now my cabinetmaking goes faster, is easier, more
> exact and very much more efficient.
I try to make an exception for the Domino in what I write, because it does
seem to be a bit of a leap in joinery. That said - it was not that long ago
that everyone was saying how superior DT was over a joint like a Domino. It
seems that Domino has taken over in a very small circle of users, just based
on ease of use. Maybe that is good enough - I'm not criticizing it. Just
saying...
>
> What if any tool have you ever owned that had a similar impact on you
> Mike? I'm not usually the one to go overboard with a new tool, but the
> impact the Domino had on my woodworking was profound. What else can I
> say?
I understand that Dave - and again... I'm really not trying to be critical
of anyone, or of Festool. All I was trying to ask is what is the real
increased value of this wildly proclaimed tool? It was not that long ago
where the same people here were raving about this or that DT jig that
reduced their work and all that stuff. I get it - things change and
improve, and all I'm asking is by how much? Especially in light of the
cost. In fact - at that time it was often heard (here) that a joint like
that which a Domino makes, was inferior to a DT joint.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:10:08 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>Yup - I'm just a schmuck. Forget the customer satisfaction that I have
>developed over the years. Me and people like me who ask questions, must be
>the lesser folks. Leon - you have transgressed...
Don't agree. You're reading too much into what he had to say.
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:38:34 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>Festool or any other tool can reduce that to such a level that anyone (or
>perhaps better said... everyone) can sleep through it at 15 ft. Like so
>many other things - one off encounters are worth something but they do not
>make make a real case.
Have you listened to a Festool dust collector? In no way shape or form
can you compare it's quietness to any regular shrieking shop vac.
Depending on the speed that one is set, it's a virtual hum. Although,
I don't own a Festool sander, I've listened to and used one before.
All it does is add another dimension to that virtual hum.
Mike, you need to get your butt over to a Festool dealer's demo day
and find out for yourself. Until then all you denials and refusal to
agree count for nada. And similarly, until then you just don't have
any basis to disagree with what's been said to you about Festool.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:26:49 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>On 8/27/2012 9:30 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Dave wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
>>>> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
>>>> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
>>>> it was.
>>>
>>> As long as you are cutting Dominos. How does that help with the larger
>>> percentage of the work done on site? Think circular saws, table saws,
>>> drills, sanders, etc.? I just can't see where this green stuff is that
>>> significantly better in the real world of working on a total project.
>>
>> Can't beat a track saw for cutting sheet goods accurately.
>>
>
>
>AND the cut being the final cut. And that is not just a Festool thing
>any more, the Makita and DeWalt saws can do this now also although I
>could not testify as to which works better in all aspects.
I looked at them before I bought the Festool. They aren't really any cheaper
and the Fesstool has more accessories available.
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:19:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
MM said:
>> In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult. I can
>> hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops up with a
>> mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of mere curiosity more
>> than anything else. Do you guys have secret chants and all that stuff?...
>
>Do you have a chant when you use your spray gun vs. when your neighbor
>paints with a rattle can of paint?
Nice deflection.
To answer Mike's question, it has been said that the official Festool
mantra is "SYS tay ner" by at least 3 background chanters during the
ritual. A few say it's even more effective when chanted in German.
--
The human brain is unique in that it is the only container of which
it can be said that the more you put into it, the more it will hold.
-- Glenn Doman
Leon wrote:
>
> No seriously I probably go through Festool $50 of paper per year
> minimum, x 5 years, so far a saving of $125 assuming at least double
> life over the old PSA stuff and I am not a production shop so my
> savings are less.
Good stuff. It's good to be able to put some reasonably concrete numbers
down for things like this.
> Not a whole lot but that is only one advantage to
> the Festool vac/sanders over the average vac. Festool dust
> collection saves paper and saves dust getting into every nook and
> cranny, quietly to name just one another advantage.
I get the saving dust - valuable to a large degree. That's one of Dave's
observations as well.
>
> I believe you meant to be funny, I just tossed it back to you and you
> should not take offense to my comparison. ;~)
Don't do that when I'm not looking...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 15:57:04 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> Stop. You sound like Karl. A little reading comprehension would
>> benefit the both of you. In no post have I either denied or refused
>> to agree on anything. I have asked a lot of questions out of
>> genuine interest, and tried to position my own needs. I have never
>> disagreed with what has been said to me. Geeze - this is a text
>> group, which implies a certain level of reading comprehension...
>
> Have a look in the mirror Mike. We keep saying the same things to you
> and you keep replying with the same answers. There is no reading
> comprehension problem, it's time for you to stop trying to make some
> sense of what we're saying and go do. Or do not. There is no try.
You need to pay attention to what I have actually said Dave, and not get on
a bandwagon. I have clearly identified the values that you have expressed
from your perspective, in those tools. I - more than once - made
recognition of that. My further discussions were only based on digging in
deeper to statements that had been made, which did not sum up. Not to say
that those statements were not correct - but they lacked the necessary
supporting evidence to be accepted. Yup - that's the nature of a
newsgroup - but that kind of dialog is also the nature of a newsgroup. So -
one asks more questions, gets more answers, etc. Seems kind of weird that
the Festool crowd seems so sensitive to any questions. It's not like I have
ever said that I disagreed.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Puckdropper wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:22241$503e3cc5 [email protected]:
>
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>> Basically no noise
>>> fatigue, part of what makes sanding more fun. ;~)
>>
>> Now stop it Leon - sanding is just not fun!
>>
>
> Yes it is, and he'll let you come over and use his sander and vacuum
> if you'll sand Aunt Polly's fence and give him a quarter! :-)
>
A freakin' quarter??? Really? I think that's a bit over the edge...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:32:29 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>improve, and all I'm asking is by how much? Especially in light of the
>cost. In fact - at that time it was often heard (here) that a joint like
>that which a Domino makes, was inferior to a DT joint.
Depends on how you define the differences in this case. Without a
doubt, a dovetail joint has more glue edges which certainly offers
greater and stronger joints.
But, dovetails take longer to create, are certainly more difficult to
create and if you screw up one, the whole project is most likely
ruined. Additionally, dovetails are very much a personal choice when
considering how you want your projects to look.
Now the Domino. It's faster to use, easier to use, may offer some
leeway if you make a mistake and gives a clean, simple look with all
of the joining mechanism of itself hidden.
Two different animals as far as I'm concerned. It's like comparing an
Aston Martin Vanquish to a Ford, any ford. They're two different
beasts and meant to be used differently.
Yeah, I know, Festool products cost more than the Aston Martin too. :)
Leon wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 3:27 PM, Jack wrote:
>>
>> I never saw anyone actually use one but I've been out of the loop for
>> years. However, several months ago when we had the same basic
>> discussion, I was at my favorite low class watering hole that was
>> having a club election and was packed with people I knew. 6 of them
>> were tradesman, 2 general contractors, one carpenter one drywall
>> guy, and a body man and a mechanic. 3 were in the business for
>> around 50 years, and still working. 3 were mid forties and only
>> been doing it for 20 some years. I asked each one of them about
>> Festools, and only one ever heard of them. He was a contractor and
>> he said he didn't own any because they cost too much.
>
> Do any of these guys at your "low class watering hole" make a handsome
> living, wish that they could retire? Is this low class watering hole
> a level or two above sitting under a bridge with homeless people
> drinking ripple? What quality of tools do you think the homeless
> use, do you think that perhaps they would think what you pay for
> tools is too much? It is all relative.
>
Geezus Leon... I'm sure most people wish they could retire. Please don't
say you are associating Festool with the aspiration of retirement. Why
would you even go on with your next statement? Come on Leon - that just
ain't like you. You have to admit - and you have, many times... that you
have turned out great work with lesser tools. Festool may offer you some
perceived advantage, but it is not the magical thing you and Swingman are
starting to make it sound like. Be honest - outside of a one-off here and
there (which might have been accomplished another way with a different
tool), just how much extra money has Festool made you? How much increase in
revenue? Let's face it - the success of your business is you - not your
tools.
>
>>
>> I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool,
>> but I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys
>> are not as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.
>
> I would not actually call those at the "low class watering hole" the
> real thing just because they don't use Festool. When I was in the
> automotive business, specifically the new car dealership business, I
> was the service sales manager. I had 35-40 mechanics and several
> made very good livings. One in particular was about two years
> younger than me, 27, and very often was the subject of conversation
> at the owner/management meeting held weekly. This particular
> mechanic very often made more money per month than the owner. We are
> talking in excess of $10K per month in 1983 dollars. He was truly
> the real thing too and bought the finest tools offered.
And do you really think that is what made him "the real thing"? I doubt it.
He was the real thing because he knew his stuff and could deliver it with
nothing more than a hammer and a paper clip. That talent is what made him.
He choice of tools was only secondary to those skills. It was those skills
that you were observing - not his choice of tools.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
> Until you actually use the better tools you really have no true knowledge
> of their benefits.
Yep, while those who type more than woodwork will continue to spout
conjecture, uniformed opinions, and take you to task for owning tools that
are priced for quality and performance that can't be found in the price
point engineered tools they tend to buy themselves.
--
www.ewoodshop.com
Swingman wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>
>> Until you actually use the better tools you really have no true
>> knowledge of their benefits.
>
> Yep, while those who type more than woodwork will continue to spout
> conjecture, uniformed opinions, and take you to task for owning tools
> that are priced for quality and performance that can't be found in
> the price point engineered tools they tend to buy themselves.
Do you simply imagine things in what other people write, or do you even try
to read what was actually written?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 8/28/2012 8:08 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>
>>> Until you actually use the better tools you really have no true
>>> knowledge of their benefits.
>>
>> Yep, while those who type more than woodwork will continue to spout
>> conjecture, uniformed opinions, and take you to task for owning tools
>> that are priced for quality and performance that can't be found in
>> the price point engineered tools they tend to buy themselves.
>
> Do you simply imagine things in what other people write, or do you even try
> to read what was actually written?
>
Mike I missed your calls, I had to take my dad to the dentist office
and I try not to use the phone while I am driving in his vehicle.
I am not having a problem with what you are asking concerning the other
discussions.
Han wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Until you actually use the better tools you really have no true
>>>> knowledge of their benefits.
>>>
>>> Yep, while those who type more than woodwork will continue to spout
>>> conjecture, uniformed opinions, and take you to task for owning
>>> tools that are priced for quality and performance that can't be
>>> found in the price point engineered tools they tend to buy
>>> themselves.
>>
>> Do you simply imagine things in what other people write, or do you
>> even try to read what was actually written?
>
> Don't try to tick off Karl any more than this, or he'll Domino you
>
> :)
Yeah - but I'm tired of Karl's self proclaimed sense of dominance here.
I've watched and I've been at the hub of too many of Karl's edicts. He's
very good at what he does from a woodworking perspective and I will always
give him that, but that's about where it ends.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Swingman wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>
>>> Until you actually use the better tools you really have no true
>>> knowledge of their benefits.
>>
>> Yep, while those who type more than woodwork will continue to spout
>> conjecture, uniformed opinions, and take you to task for owning tools
>> that are priced for quality and performance that can't be found in
>> the price point engineered tools they tend to buy themselves.
>
> Do you simply imagine things in what other people write, or do you
> even try to read what was actually written?
Don't try to tick off Karl any more than this, or he'll Domino you
:)
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Han wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Until you actually use the better tools you really have no true
>>>>> knowledge of their benefits.
>>>>
>>>> Yep, while those who type more than woodwork will continue to spout
>>>> conjecture, uniformed opinions, and take you to task for owning
>>>> tools that are priced for quality and performance that can't be
>>>> found in the price point engineered tools they tend to buy
>>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> Do you simply imagine things in what other people write, or do you
>>> even try to read what was actually written?
>>
>> Don't try to tick off Karl any more than this, or he'll Domino you
>>
>> :)
>
> Yeah - but I'm tired of Karl's self proclaimed sense of dominance
> here. I've watched and I've been at the hub of too many of Karl's
> edicts. He's very good at what he does from a woodworking perspective
> and I will always give him that, but that's about where it ends.
I happen to respect him for much more than "just" his woodworking. His
knowledge of tools is excellent, and his sense of humor is beyond my
appreciation. OK, he can be provoked, but even I can be, too.
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On 8/28/2012 12:20 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Han wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Swingman wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Until you actually use the better tools you really have no true
>>>>> knowledge of their benefits.
>>>>
>>>> Yep, while those who type more than woodwork will continue to spout
>>>> conjecture, uniformed opinions, and take you to task for owning
>>>> tools that are priced for quality and performance that can't be
>>>> found in the price point engineered tools they tend to buy
>>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> Do you simply imagine things in what other people write, or do you
>>> even try to read what was actually written?
>>
>> Don't try to tick off Karl any more than this, or he'll Domino you
>>
>> :)
>
> Yeah - but I'm tired of Karl's self proclaimed sense of dominance here.
> I've watched and I've been at the hub of too many of Karl's edicts. He's
> very good at what he does from a woodworking perspective and I will always
> give him that, but that's about where it ends.
>
It helps to know that Swingman does not hold your hand. You work at his
level.
On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:24:29 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I wish! I still have OS/2 and my entire OPUS BBS system on a 486 on the
>floor beside me. Hasn't been hooked up in 12 years but I bet it would
>boot right up if I plugged her in. WIN has not caught up to OS/2 even
>with XP and WIN 7. I will admit that XP almost worked, and WIN 7 is
>getting there, but really, I don't think anyone at MS has a freaking
>clue what they are doing, and must use way to many recreational drugs.
>
I hear complaints like that often. For some reason though, the
complainers continue to use the product rather than make their own
system that would be better, faster, cheaper. Once you do, let me
know and I'll buy it. Meantime, I'm using MS products until yours
hits the market.
Jack wrote:
>>
>> It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into
>> applications. Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them
>> ubiquitous. Later, breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In
>> the '90s, PCs were about where phones were in the '50s.
>
> PC's are hardware, OS is software. Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
> but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
> anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today
> has not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I
> suspected the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks
> like I was wrong, it already past that marker.
Not to mention that it has always been about both - operating systems and
applications. Two distinctly different things. Regardless of whether we
are talking about iPhones, Linux, Droids, PC's or iPads - both are part of
the environment. The apps look different today, and that is not necessarily
for the better - it all depends on what they do and what you want them to
do.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
>
> Consider also that when controlling dust while sanding that the sand
> paper lasts considerably longer. When sanding the build up of dust
> between the paper and the wood generates heat. The heat more quickly
> breaks down the quality of paper and causes the paper to load up more
> quickly. If there is no dust collecting this problem is not as
> problematic.
Point well taken... to a point. As a guy who uses abrasives in a lot of
ways, I do indeed recognize this, but I also recognize that the real value
is quite small. It might result in a sheet or two less on any given
project. For a large scale shop that might add up to a couple of bucks over
a year's worth of time. For even the most ardent contractor - let alone the
home guy - this is a very negligable amount. What could we say - maybe $10
per year at the most? Maybe a bit more - maybe a bit less?
>
>
>>
>> In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult. I can
>> hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops
>> up with a mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of
>> mere curiosity more than anything else. Do you guys have secret
>> chants and all that stuff?...
>
> Do you have a chant when you use your spray gun vs. when your neighbor
> paints with a rattle can of paint?
I think you missed the obvious intended humor Leon...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 8/28/2012 12:46 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:38:34 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> Festool or any other tool can reduce that to such a level that anyone (or
>> perhaps better said... everyone) can sleep through it at 15 ft. Like so
>> many other things - one off encounters are worth something but they do not
>> make make a real case.
>
> Have you listened to a Festool dust collector? In no way shape or form
> can you compare it's quietness to any regular shrieking shop vac.
> Depending on the speed that one is set, it's a virtual hum. Although,
> I don't own a Festool sander, I've listened to and used one before.
> All it does is add another dimension to that virtual hum.
>
> Mike, you need to get your butt over to a Festool dealer's demo day
> and find out for yourself. Until then all you denials and refusal to
> agree count for nada. And similarly, until then you just don't have
> any basis to disagree with what's been said to you about Festool.
>
LOL, Better yet take home a sander and vac. You have 30 days to see if
it suits you.
A word of warning, learn to use the VS on the vac when sanding. Too
strong and the sander wants to hop. Dial it up just high enough so that
the sander glides along the surface and picks up the dust.
Also because the sander/vac combination work so well together do not
leave the paper on too long. The paper will wear out long before it has
any visual signs of wear. Still the paper lasts much longer than that
on a non collection sander.
I learned to feel the paper surface and compare it to a new piece.
In most cases you will not hear the vac when it is running and attached
to an operating power tool, power drills included.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Dave wrote:
>
>>
>> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
>> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
>> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
>> it was.
>
>As long as you are cutting Dominos. How does that help with the larger
>percentage of the work done on site? Think circular saws, table saws,
>drills, sanders, etc.? I just can't see where this green stuff is that
>significantly better in the real world of working on a total project.
Can't beat a track saw for cutting sheet goods accurately.
On 8/28/2012 12:38 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> with a shop vac specifically it may not matter with with your
>> customers. The last kitchen reface job I worked on was with my
>> customer taking a nap in the bedroom 15' away, while I was going
>> through 3 grits of sand paper. No dust and quiet enough for him to
>> take a nap. And then I probably got paid more for the job so that my
>> customer did not have to put up with a screaming vac. so again, the
>> right tools in the right hands are worth the extra cost. It is all
>> relative.
>
> While I will not dispute this claim, I do have to say I am surprised. I can
> sleep through a train wreck, but someone sanding and vacumming 15' away -
> wow! THAT would certainly impress me. And I can sleep - as I've said. I
> cannot immagine that the sound of the sandpaper alone would not have been
> more than enough to wake me up. Something about this experience does not
> strike me as "normal". Sorry Leon - but I know how much sound the sandpaper
> makes - even if applied by hand. And you just cannot convince me that
> Festool or any other tool can reduce that to such a level that anyone (or
> perhaps better said... everyone) can sleep through it at 15 ft. Like so
> many other things - one off encounters are worth something but they do not
> make make a real case.
>
>
I can provide you with telephone number, address, and pictures if you
like. But only after checking with him first.
Agreed, this was most likely an exception, this was done for a close
friend/neighbor that trusted me in his home. He had no problems with
sleeping with me unattended. I can assure you most clients want to keep
an eye on you. But the fact remains he did sleep, you do realize it was
behind a closed bedroom door that faced the kitchen... ;~)
The truly remarkable part about the sanding job was that he had masked
off all of the cabinet door openings relatively well but there were
numerous openings/ spots that he missed. He He simply wanted to keep
the majority of the dust at bay and not have to wash all of the dishes.
He was amazed that even the ledges had no dust to speak of and he did
not have to do any clean up. I only had to use 1 damp paper towel to
run over the counter tops to get the dust that escaped.
You can believe it or not, it will not change the fact, or bother me in
any way.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>As long as you are cutting Dominos. How does that help with the larger
>percentage of the work done on site? Think circular saws, table saws,
>drills, sanders, etc.? I just can't see where this green stuff is that
>significantly better in the real world of working on a total project.
Depends on what you do. The bulk of my original contracting in clients
homes was altering and replacing the existing cabinetmaking. And much
of that cabinetmaking was building in place.
Typical construction was slicing up sheets of plywood in a driveway
and taking them inside to be assembled. A Domino back then would have
been invaluable. I'd have to assume it would be just as valuable now.
If I was building in my shop, then there wasn't as much of an impact,
but there was still some anyway you look at it. Despite Leon's over
the top enthusiasm with Festool, he actually does a tremendous amount
of work in his shop. Why should anybody doubt his claims of greatly
increased efficiency?
As far as the rest of the tools you mentioned go, the only one I can
comment to is the sanding. Festool sanders with the appropriate
Festool dust collector are noticeably more efficient with the dust
collection. That lack of a greater amount of dust *always* has a
significant impact in a client's home.
Now, if it's a total gut job, not much of a difference, but that
wasn't my shtick back then.
But, I understand all of what you're saying/asking. The march of
Festool sales is inexorable. But, its pricing will always limit it to
a certain strata.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:27:46 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool, but
>I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys are not
>as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.
Many of their responses might be dependent on the type of contractors
they were. But, just speaking about the Domino here, it would be
really interesting to take your representative three contractors and
show them what the Domino could do along side a biscuit joiner.
Similarly, and again dependent on the type of contracting they did, I
wonder how interested they'd be in some apparently regular sounding
products that were mostly dust free.
I haven't done any home contracting for near thirty five years, but I
*do* remember how much of a pain it was when working onsite in a
client's home to keep it dust free.
Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
it was.
On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 09:26:29 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 9/5/2012 7:43 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>n
>> Right. It's the apps that sell everything else. In the end, that's what
>> killed OS/2 and what's keeping Linux in the geek world (significant embedded,
>> now, though).
>>
>>> The apps look different today, and that is not necessarily
>>> for the better - it all depends on what they do and what you want them to
>>> do.
>>
>> I think it's a pretty good use of the hardware we now have. I can't imagine a
>> command line Sketchup. ;-)
>
>Both OS/2 and UNIX can run non-command line apps more efficiently and
>more dependably than DOS/WIN. That's why WIN is garbage. Good grief.
Fat code and lazy programmers, causing the need to buy better (read
newer hardware) it is a conspiracy.
;>
Markem wrote:
>
> Fat code and lazy programmers, causing the need to buy better (read
> newer hardware) it is a conspiracy.
>
Worse yet is the lack of programming discipline these days. Processor
speeds are fast, memory and disk are both cheap, so programming no longer
worries about efficiencies like it did in the old days. Sloppy code,
written in interpretors and lousy script - and off we go...
Bloat... what's bloat?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 14:03:20 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:39:49 -0400, "[email protected]"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>A few others. We have a *lot* of people building phones, though.
>>
>
>All the land line phones in my house have the ATT brand on them. I've
>tried others, but they are crap by comparison.
Nevertheless...
>Remember when we had one Bell phone in black in the house and it was
>on a party line?
I remember that. Barely. I think.
>I think we have eight phones now, both wired and
>portable.
...and we have zero. ;-) The "phone line" only talks to the computers and
the satellite TV box (DSL).
On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 09:26:29 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 9/5/2012 7:43 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>n
>> Right. It's the apps that sell everything else. In the end, that's what
>> killed OS/2 and what's keeping Linux in the geek world (significant embedded,
>> now, though).
>>
>>> The apps look different today, and that is not necessarily
>>> for the better - it all depends on what they do and what you want them to
>>> do.
>>
>> I think it's a pretty good use of the hardware we now have. I can't imagine a
>> command line Sketchup. ;-)
>
>Both OS/2 and UNIX can run non-command line apps more efficiently and
>more dependably than DOS/WIN. That's why WIN is garbage. Good grief.
Good grief! It's dead Jim.
On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 20:42:59 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 17:56:59 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Jack wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into
>>>>> applications. Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them
>>>>> ubiquitous. Later, breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In
>>>>> the '90s, PCs were about where phones were in the '50s.
>>>>
>>>> PC's are hardware, OS is software. Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
>>>> but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
>>>> anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today
>>>> has not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I
>>>> suspected the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks
>>>> like I was wrong, it already past that marker.
>>>
>>> Not to mention that it has always been about both - operating systems and
>>> applications. Two distinctly different things. Regardless of whether we
>>> are talking about iPhones, Linux, Droids, PC's or iPads - both are part of
>>> the environment.
>>
>> Right. It's the apps that sell everything else. In the end, that's what
>> killed OS/2 and what's keeping Linux in the geek world (significant embedded,
>> now, though).
>>
>>> The apps look different today, and that is not necessarily
>>> for the better - it all depends on what they do and what you want them to
>>> do.
>>
>> I think it's a pretty good use of the hardware we now have. I can't imagine a
>> command line Sketchup. ;-)
>
>I can because I wrote some Ruby scripts for Sketchup! : )
>Anything you can request be done using a mouse, you can do with text
>(using the Ruby programming language and the Sketchup API/Libraries).
>And you can achieve potentially more precision and it runs fast!
>
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
On 8/29/2012 8:10 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 11:02 PM, Dave wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>
>> If I was building in my shop, then there wasn't as much of an impact,
>> but there was still some anyway you look at it. Despite Leon's over
>> the top enthusiasm with Festool, he actually does a tremendous amount
>> of work in his shop. Why should anybody doubt his claims of greatly
>> increased efficiency?
>
> I'm still pondering his claims that a festool sander makes sanding
> almost fun. I can afford one, but I'm still pondering.
Seriously Jack, Take a "5 or 6" Rotex" sander home. Hook it up to your
system. Tell the guys at the store that you are perfectly happy with
your sander but have heard that the Rotex is great. You have 30 days to
decide if it is worth your hard earned money or not. No risk.
One of the features of the Festool sanders dust collection is that the
center hole actually blows a stream of air and the outer holes vacuum
the dust. Basically, when the suction is adjusted just right the sander
tends to float and is quite effective in picking up the dust. Too much
suction and the sander tends to be jumpy.
But besides the dust collection the Rotex will darn near keep up with a
belt sander in its aggressive mode with similar grit sand paper. The
thing runs circles around any other ROS in that mode. Coupled with a
Festool vac and perhaps a Fein vac you will only hear the sander
running, while that may not seem important, it is a very nice feature
that is a pleasant added feature. Basically no noise fatigue, part of
what makes sanding more fun. ;~)
On 9/2/2012 8:38 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> The fixed pricing is good for the retailer and for you.
>
> Hmmm... should you ever have to convince the customer of that?
No, just remind him of that.
>
>
>> The retailer makes his profit and you rest assured that the price you
>> pay at
>> your favorite dealer is the best price available.
>
> If you ever need another job, you should always be able to find ample
> opportunities in sales! : )
Been there, done that, actually ran my own tire/retail store at 21.
>
>>
>> And then when you actually buy the tool and use it the cost of the tool
>> some how seems to be justified and you generally don't give it a second
>> thought.
>
> That's true of just about everything we buy, I think. But,
> rationally, it shouldn't affect whether you buy or not. See my comment
> above.
>
>
Providing you live a charmed life. There was a PC detail sander I
bought, a Free Bosch Impact driver, numerous B& D tools, Skil, the list
goes on. I give all of those second and third thoughts.
Dave wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 01:37:49 GMT, basilisk <[email protected]>
>> Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell
>> out the bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>>
>> When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts,
>> his exact words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
>
> If you were the owner/inventor and had a product that performed a
> particular function, a product that people wanted and were already
> buying, would you offer a discount? Would you need to offer a
> discount.
>
> I can see your reasoning ~ getting additional customers = greater
> profits. But, Festool's whole line of products is premised on doing
> functions that most other products can do, but doing it better,
> cleaner and faster. And unfortunately, offering those products at a
> higher price point.
>
> Unfortunately for the lay person, there's Festool stock owners
> somewhere laughing all the way to the bank.
>
From what I was able to discern, Festool is a family owned business.
I think humor is a different thing in Germany.
On 8/25/2012 11:47 PM, Dave wrote:
> I can see your reasoning ~ getting additional customers = greater
> profits. But, Festool's whole line of products is premised on doing
> functions that most other products can do, but doing it better,
> cleaner and faster.
That's a part of it.
And unfortunately, offering those products at a higher price point.
That's the other part, and the reason you won't see Festering Tools on
sale, and also why they are rarely used by professionals. They market
there tools to rich oil men that like to brag about how much more their
tool cost than your tool, and to rich bankers that just want the best
vacuum cleaner made, and dollars counts, particularly at rich cocktail
parties where the other rich guys get to talking (bragging) about tools
and Bentleys, whilst sucking on a bottle of Montrachet 1978 from Domaine
de la Romanée-Conti.
In other words, part of the shtick is pricing from hell. Sort of like
joining a country club that cost $50g's a year, plus $300 for a round of
golf, and a 1.50 beer costs $9.
> Unfortunately for the lay person, there's Festool stock owners
> somewhere laughing all the way to the bank.
There is a niche for every market, and Festools niche is prices from
hell, not prices from Home Depot.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Jack wrote:
>>
>> Are you using Windows?
>
> Yes, and it is junk.
>
> If so, you must like it or you'd be using Apple products or Linux.
>
> Or I am using an overpriced POS because they have cornered the market,
> which they did, via illegal, anti-competitive marketing practices,
> which they did, as proven in court.
Yep. And the verdict was vacated by the US Court of Appeals.
On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:10:00 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Other systems are readily available, but people just don't seem to be
>> flocking to them or demanding them. We have choices.
>
>Yeah, glad you think so.
Are you using Windows? If so, you must like it or you'd be using
Apple products or Linux. Are you buying a tablet with the Android OS?
>
>Jack also estimated that based on how totally shitty MS products are,
>and that their profit margins exceed even the steenking rich oil
>companies profits by 3 times,
Steenking rich? Oh, I do own some of their stock and I approve of
their profits.
>Yeah, what auto company makes 30% profit margin and controls 92.2% of
>the global market with a car that breaks down 1000's of times more
>frequently than any of it's competitors? I reckon GM is on it's way to
>that fortunate anti competitive position.
If they can do it, good for them. Apple seems to be up there profit
wise too. No one is forcing anyone to buy MS products. Millions of
people must have the latest iPhone and Apple is loaded with cash, but
they still complain about MS.
Jack wrote:
>>> Or I am using an overpriced POS because they have cornered the
>>> market, which they did, via illegal, anti-competitive marketing
>>> practices, which they did, as proven in court.
>>
>> Yep. And the verdict was vacated by the US Court of Appeals.
>
> Yes, and the public continues to be punished with inferior junk,
> whilst MS reaps 30% profit margins.
>
> Quit pretending dead fish don't stink!
Yep. And 90% of the desktop software got there by people who voted with
their money. There are alternatives: Apple's Macintosh (but you have to join
the religion to participate). And there's Linux which is a knock-off of a
40-year old operating system originally designed by a money-losing division
of your local telephone company.
Take your pick.
Mike Marlow wrote:
> HeyBub wrote:
>
>> And there's Linux which is
>> a knock-off of a 40-year old operating system originally designed by
>> a money-losing division of your local telephone company.
>>
>
> Genuflect when you speak about that 40 year old operating system...
Last time I "genuflected" was after a golf cart accident in which I survived
with no injury. My Roman Catholic golfing buddy went nuts. "Glory be," he
said. "You've seen the light!"
"No," said I. "I was checking my watch and my wallet, my spectacles and my
testicles."
HeyBub wrote:
> And there's Linux which is
> a knock-off of a 40-year old operating system originally designed by
> a money-losing division of your local telephone company.
>
Genuflect when you speak about that 40 year old operating system...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 14:34:59 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 8/31/2012 1:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:14:09 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2
>>> was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN,
>>
>> Agreed. I switched from OS/2 to WinNT 3.51 at work and Win2K at home (with
>> the intention of going to Linux in a year or two - that never worked out).
>
>>> but MS and IBM made certain you would be using win garbage.
>
>> IBM? They just admitted defeat, after pretty much everyone else already had.
>
>That's the party line. I suspect IBM pulled the plug when success was
>imminent. Everyone in the OS/2 community was ecstatic because OS/2,
>(with no help from IBM), just word of mouth from the PC community,
>finally had reached what most considered critical mass, at 1 million
>copies sold a month. IBM's response was not to start advertising, or do
>anything even a 10 year old lemon aide stand entrepreneur would know to
>do, but to yank it from the market. 2 + 2 = 7, always a reason to raise
>a jaundiced eye
Clueless. In the early '90s, IBM was in deep trouble. Under Akers, they were
borrowing to pay dividends for a decade and were within weeks of missing
payroll. There simply wasn't the money to go after the consumer market.
>>> What other system might have
>>> arisen with equal playing fields can only be imagined. Monopolies are
>>> like that.
>>
>> It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into applications.
>> Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them ubiquitous. Later,
>> breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In the '90s, PCs were about where
>> phones were in the '50s.
>
>PC's are hardware, OS is software.
Wow! Really, Capt. Obvious?
>Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
>but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
>anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today has
>not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I suspected
>the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks like I was
>wrong, it already past that marker.
Since when does better = winner? Good grief.
On 9/3/2012 3:38 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:10:00 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Other systems are readily available, but people just don't seem to be
>>> flocking to them or demanding them. We have choices.
>>
>> Yeah, glad you think so.
>
> Are you using Windows?
Yes, and it is junk.
If so, you must like it or you'd be using Apple products or Linux.
Or I am using an overpriced POS because they have cornered the market,
which they did, via illegal, anti-competitive marketing practices, which
they did, as proven in court.
>> Jack also estimated that based on how totally shitty MS products are,
>> and that their profit margins exceed even the steenking rich oil
>> companies profits by 3 times,
> Steenking rich? Oh, I do own some of their stock and I approve of
> their profits.
Good for you. The pundits run around crucifying the "monopolistic" oil
companies for making 8% profit margins. Meanwhile there are a ton of
oil companies, and every one delivers top quality products at a good
price (8% over cost)
>> Yeah, what auto company makes 30% profit margin and controls 92.2% of
>> the global market with a car that breaks down 1000's of times more
>> frequently than any of it's competitors? I reckon GM is on it's way to
>> that fortunate anti competitive position.
> If they can do it, good for them.
Well, if you don't mind driving a POS Tribant, or using a POS OS, sure,
good for them, but piss on us. There is a reason competition is good,
monopolies are bad.
Apple seems to be up there profit wise too.
40%, compared to under 10% "windfall" profits of the oil companies.
No one is forcing anyone to buy MS products.
No one is forcing you to live on Earth, either.
Millions of
> people must have the latest iPhone and Apple is loaded with cash, but
> they still complain about MS.
93% of the DT market at 30% profit margin with a POS product. Nothing
going on there, right dumb ass!
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 9/5/2012 7:40 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 14:34:59 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 8/31/2012 1:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:14:09 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2
>>>> was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN,
>>>
>>> Agreed. I switched from OS/2 to WinNT 3.51 at work and Win2K at home (with
>>> the intention of going to Linux in a year or two - that never worked out).
>>
>>>> but MS and IBM made certain you would be using win garbage.
>>
>>> IBM? They just admitted defeat, after pretty much everyone else already had.
>>
>> That's the party line. I suspect IBM pulled the plug when success was
>> imminent. Everyone in the OS/2 community was ecstatic because OS/2,
>> (with no help from IBM), just word of mouth from the PC community,
>> finally had reached what most considered critical mass, at 1 million
>> copies sold a month. IBM's response was not to start advertising, or do
>> anything even a 10 year old lemon aide stand entrepreneur would know to
>> do, but to yank it from the market. 2 + 2 = 7, always a reason to raise
>> a jaundiced eye
>
> Clueless. In the early '90s, IBM was in deep trouble. Under Akers, they were
> borrowing to pay dividends for a decade and were within weeks of missing
> payroll. There simply wasn't the money to go after the consumer market.
Clueless. In the 90's IBM spent more money on R&D than MS made selling
software. They spent tons on advertising as well, just not OS/2, and
OS/2 was still growing in market share with no help from IBM.
>>> It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into applications.
>>> Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them ubiquitous. Later,
>>> breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In the '90s, PCs were about where
>>> phones were in the '50s.
>>
>> PC's are hardware, OS is software.
>
> Wow! Really, Capt. Obvious?
I wasn't the one that said PC's were where phones were in the 50's when
the subject was software, so the distinction needed made.
>> Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
>> but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
>> anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today has
>> not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I suspected
>> the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks like I was
>> wrong, it already past that marker.
> Since when does better = winner? Good grief.
Since when does lousy = winner? Good grief.
When a lousy product dominates 90% of a huge market and makes 3 times
the profit margin as say oil companies even the weakest mind in the
barrel should recognize Houston, we have a problem. Free markets with
modest anti-trust laws don't work that way for long.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 9/7/2012 7:20 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>>>
>>> Are you using Windows?
>>
>> Yes, and it is junk.
>>
>> If so, you must like it or you'd be using Apple products or Linux.
>>
>> Or I am using an overpriced POS because they have cornered the market,
>> which they did, via illegal, anti-competitive marketing practices,
>> which they did, as proven in court.
>
> Yep. And the verdict was vacated by the US Court of Appeals.
Yes, and the public continues to be punished with inferior junk, whilst
MS reaps 30% profit margins.
Quit pretending dead fish don't stink!
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 9/7/2012 3:51 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>>>> Or I am using an overpriced POS because they have cornered the
>>>> market, which they did, via illegal, anti-competitive marketing
>>>> practices, which they did, as proven in court.
>>>
>>> Yep. And the verdict was vacated by the US Court of Appeals.
>>
>> Yes, and the public continues to be punished with inferior junk,
>> whilst MS reaps 30% profit margins.
>>
>> Quit pretending dead fish don't stink!
>
> Yep. And 90% of the desktop software got there by people who voted with
> their money.
Yes, 90% of the people voted to use the worlds worst OS. They voted in
the dark because of monopolistic practices of MS, clearly demonstrated
by 4 years of testimony in front of an administrative law judge, who was
aghast at the depth of MS's chicanery. He was the last to know, everyone
else with experience and interest already was well aware of the obvious.
There are alternatives: Apple's Macintosh (but you have to join
> the religion to participate). And there's Linux which is a knock-off of a
> 40-year old operating system originally designed by a money-losing division
> of your local telephone company.
> Take your pick.
Yawn!
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 16:34:40 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 13:34:01 -0400, "[email protected]"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>>It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into applications.
>>Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them ubiquitous. Later,
>>breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In the '90s, PCs were about where
>>phones were in the '50s.
>
>But the broken units are pretty much back together again. How many
>baby bells existed after the breakup? Now you have ATT and Verizon
>and ?????
A few others. We have a *lot* of people building phones, though.
>All the kings horses and all the kings men did a good job on Humpty
>the Phone Company.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 09:39:56 -0400, Dave wrote:
> Really, a little personal prejudice there don't you think Jack? Someone
> unfamiliar with Festool and reading your comment above might think
> people buy Festool just so they can brag about it.
Some folks do buy for that reason - I've seen it :-).
Many years ago I was looking for a scroll saw. I read a lot of reviews
and looked at a lot of saws. The consensus seemed to be that the DeWalt
was almost as good as the top of the line saws at about half the price.
So that's what I bought.
That pretty much describes my feelings about Festool. From what I can
tell they really are top of the line, but until money is no object, I'll
take the runner-up.
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying the cross.
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying the cross.
On 8/27/2012 9:39 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:51:44 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> there tools to rich oil men that like to brag about how much more their
>> tool cost than your tool, and to rich bankers that just want the best
>> vacuum cleaner made, and dollars counts, particularly at rich cocktail
>> parties where the other rich guys get to talking (bragging) about tools
>> and Bentleys, whilst sucking on a bottle of Montrachet 1978 from Domaine
>> de la Romanée-Conti.
>
> Really, a little personal prejudice there don't you think Jack?
Personal opinion based on many, many years of experience.
> Someone unfamiliar with Festool and reading your comment above might
> think people buy Festool just so they can brag about it.
Well, I did mention rich bankers that wanted the best money could buy.
> Do you own *any* Festool products Jack?
Hell no, but you wanna send me one I'll be more than happy to play with
it. Same with a Bentely or a bottle of Montrachet 1978. I won't try
the booze though.
Have you ever even tried one or more of their products out?
Only at the store, but I don't need to try one out to know what they
cost. My statements do not question there quality, just the price.
I never saw anyone actually use one but I've been out of the loop for
years. However, several months ago when we had the same basic
discussion, I was at my favorite low class watering hole that was having
a club election and was packed with people I knew. 6 of them were
tradesman, 2 general contractors, one carpenter one drywall guy, and a
body man and a mechanic. 3 were in the business for around 50 years, and
still working. 3 were mid forties and only been doing it for 20 some
years. I asked each one of them about Festools, and only one ever heard
of them. He was a contractor and he said he didn't own any because they
cost too much.
I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool, but
I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys are not
as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.
> I'm not attacking you, just your statement that seems to be rife with
> bias for some reason.
My guess is because you don't like what I said. No bias at all, just my
opinion, based on personal experience with people and tools. The "bias"
my friend is all yours. I know that from experience also.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 09:26:24 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 9/5/2012 7:40 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 14:34:59 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/31/2012 1:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:14:09 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2
>>>>> was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN,
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. I switched from OS/2 to WinNT 3.51 at work and Win2K at home (with
>>>> the intention of going to Linux in a year or two - that never worked out).
>>>
>>>>> but MS and IBM made certain you would be using win garbage.
>>>
>>>> IBM? They just admitted defeat, after pretty much everyone else already had.
>>>
>>> That's the party line. I suspect IBM pulled the plug when success was
>>> imminent. Everyone in the OS/2 community was ecstatic because OS/2,
>>> (with no help from IBM), just word of mouth from the PC community,
>>> finally had reached what most considered critical mass, at 1 million
>>> copies sold a month. IBM's response was not to start advertising, or do
>>> anything even a 10 year old lemon aide stand entrepreneur would know to
>>> do, but to yank it from the market. 2 + 2 = 7, always a reason to raise
>>> a jaundiced eye
>>
>> Clueless. In the early '90s, IBM was in deep trouble. Under Akers, they were
>> borrowing to pay dividends for a decade and were within weeks of missing
>> payroll. There simply wasn't the money to go after the consumer market.
>
>Clueless. In the 90's IBM spent more money on R&D than MS made selling
>software. They spent tons on advertising as well, just not OS/2, and
>OS/2 was still growing in market share with no help from IBM.
You haven't the foggiest clue. IBM was next to bankruptcy. First layoffs in
their history - massive. Remember Gerstner? No, you probably don't. You
weren't there.
>>>> It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into applications.
>>>> Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them ubiquitous. Later,
>>>> breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In the '90s, PCs were about where
>>>> phones were in the '50s.
>>>
>>> PC's are hardware, OS is software.
>>
>> Wow! Really, Capt. Obvious?
>
>I wasn't the one that said PC's were where phones were in the 50's when
>the subject was software, so the distinction needed made.
You probably don't know it, but people use software and don't give a shit
about the hardware underneath.
>>> Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
>>> but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
>>> anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today has
>>> not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I suspected
>>> the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks like I was
>>> wrong, it already past that marker.
>
>> Since when does better = winner? Good grief.
>
>Since when does lousy = winner? Good grief.
The market decides. You (and I) lost. Get over it (I have).
>When a lousy product dominates 90% of a huge market and makes 3 times
>the profit margin as say oil companies even the weakest mind in the
>barrel should recognize Houston, we have a problem. Free markets with
>modest anti-trust laws don't work that way for long.
You think M$ makes three times the margin as Apple? You're on drugs.
On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 09:51:06 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Are you using Windows?
>
>Yes, and it is junk.
Of course you're using it. Naturally Microsoft is forcing you. Asshole
+1.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:39:49 -0400, "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >A few others. We have a *lot* of people building phones, though.
> >
>
> All the land line phones in my house have the ATT brand on them. I've
> tried others, but they are crap by comparison.
>
> Remember when we had one Bell phone in black in the house and it was
> on a party line? I think we have eight phones now, both wired and
> portable.
After the breakup, the AT&T phones I could find were crap--your tax
dollars at work.
If you want a reliable phone these days the only way to get one is to
buy a Western Electric off of ebay.
On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 09:51:06 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>93% of the DT market at 30% profit margin with a POS product. Nothing
>going on there, right dumb ass!
All you do is whine, whine, whine. You live in one of the greatest
countries this world has ever seen, with the most rights and
privileges ever known.
And what do you do with these rights? You WHINE incessantly about your
government, your medical industry, your poor, whatever the topic, if
it is in the US you WHINE about it.
Greedy, selfish, ignorant whiner. You deserve to have your face back
slapped good and hard. You disgust me.
On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:39:49 -0400, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>A few others. We have a *lot* of people building phones, though.
>
All the land line phones in my house have the ATT brand on them. I've
tried others, but they are crap by comparison.
Remember when we had one Bell phone in black in the house and it was
on a party line? I think we have eight phones now, both wired and
portable.
On 8/27/2012 9:00 AM, Han wrote:
> Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>> There is a niche for every market, and Festools niche is prices from
>> hell, not prices from Home Depot.
>
> You'll find differences of opinion.
Well, in my opinion is the reason Festool never bends on price is
because they are marketing to those that get off paying top dollar for
their tools. What is your opinion on why they don't go on sale?
Some professionals relish the tools.
Some professionals drive Porsche's to work, and only a small number of
those own Festools. I would relish a festool, but would be almost
ashamed to tell most what it cost. The prices border, no, are, ridiculous.
> But I can see that companies hiring half-baked workers would prefer to
> have them abuse cheap tools.
That's not been my experience. First, the trades frown on half baked
workers, a half baked worker is more of a Government position, not the
skilled trades.
Cheap tools seldom make it into skilled trades. But, they don't often
blow wads of money for the heck of it. You will find more Fords than
you will Bentleys at the construction site. Have you ever been near a
construction site?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> You don't remember the Ridgid lawsuit by the guy who was a cardcarrying
> nincompoop, didm't know how to work a simple table saw for ripping a
> piece of wood? The suit that made the SawStop? I bet there are plenty
> of the kind of outfit that employed this guy ...
>
>> Cheap tools seldom make it into skilled trades. But, they don't often
>> blow wads of money for the heck of it. You will find more Fords than
>> you will Bentleys at the construction site. Have you ever been near a
>> construction site?
When it comes or opions, or quality of work, one would do well to NEVER put
undue trust in any tradesman met in a bar. ;)
> My home was a construction site when we remodeled. I'm sure the GC
> didn't really like we kept living in it while the work was going on.
You can bet he did not ... DAMHIKT. LOL
My last two, of three, remodels in the last twelve months also had special
medical needs of the inplace inmates to take into account. Try that for a
bit of extra stress in a business already stressful for the trustworthy. :)
As far as Festool goes ... My Festool devices have consistenntly made me
more money than any other tool I've ever owned. I pity those ignorant of
the benefit/price ratio, for they know not of what they speak.
--
www.ewoodshop.com
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:44:40 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Markem wrote:
>
>>
>> If I were a professional Festool makes sense, especially in the
>> remodeling, less mess to clean up saves time and that keeps the client
>> usually.
>>
>
>I have to say that I have never heard a person say that they would hire a
>contractor again because of his tools. His tool, perhaps - but that's a
>different thread... Customers expect noise, mess, etc. While I agree that
>the mess left behind is important, that is more a statement about the work
>ethic of the contractor than it is about their choice in tools. I would
>feel safe in betting that no customer makes a recommendation based on the
>tools the contractor uses. Beyond that - I don't think that the difference
>(at the end of the day) is all that great between Festool and any other
>brand. At least - not in the eyes of the customer, nor in the real world
>cost to the contractor. I think this whole Festool thing is something to
>make the contractor feel better about the money he spent than it is any real
>world practical matter.
>
>That said - Dave did point out one advantage - but it is unique to his
>situation. He lives and works in an apartment where he has to do his work
>in his livingroom. Now that seems to be a very special case where
>everything you can do to reduce noise is going to be to your advantage.
I did not say I would hire a contractor based upon his tools. But the
if it was my profession Festools dust collection is a advantage in
saving time in cleaning up and therefore saves time. Time is money
after all.
Mark
Markem wrote:
>
> If I were a professional Festool makes sense, especially in the
> remodeling, less mess to clean up saves time and that keeps the client
> usually.
>
I have to say that I have never heard a person say that they would hire a
contractor again because of his tools. His tool, perhaps - but that's a
different thread... Customers expect noise, mess, etc. While I agree that
the mess left behind is important, that is more a statement about the work
ethic of the contractor than it is about their choice in tools. I would
feel safe in betting that no customer makes a recommendation based on the
tools the contractor uses. Beyond that - I don't think that the difference
(at the end of the day) is all that great between Festool and any other
brand. At least - not in the eyes of the customer, nor in the real world
cost to the contractor. I think this whole Festool thing is something to
make the contractor feel better about the money he spent than it is any real
world practical matter.
That said - Dave did point out one advantage - but it is unique to his
situation. He lives and works in an apartment where he has to do his work
in his livingroom. Now that seems to be a very special case where
everything you can do to reduce noise is going to be to your advantage.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 18:30:18 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Han <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> You don't remember the Ridgid lawsuit by the guy who was a cardcarrying
>> nincompoop, didm't know how to work a simple table saw for ripping a
>> piece of wood? The suit that made the SawStop? I bet there are plenty
>> of the kind of outfit that employed this guy ...
>>
>>> Cheap tools seldom make it into skilled trades. But, they don't often
>>> blow wads of money for the heck of it. You will find more Fords than
>>> you will Bentleys at the construction site. Have you ever been near a
>>> construction site?
>
>When it comes or opions, or quality of work, one would do well to NEVER put
>undue trust in any tradesman met in a bar. ;)
>
>> My home was a construction site when we remodeled. I'm sure the GC
>> didn't really like we kept living in it while the work was going on.
>
>You can bet he did not ... DAMHIKT. LOL
>
>My last two, of three, remodels in the last twelve months also had special
>medical needs of the inplace inmates to take into account. Try that for a
>bit of extra stress in a business already stressful for the trustworthy. :)
>
>As far as Festool goes ... My Festool devices have consistenntly made me
>more money than any other tool I've ever owned. I pity those ignorant of
>the benefit/price ratio, for they know not of what they speak.
If I were a professional Festool makes sense, especially in the
remodeling, less mess to clean up saves time and that keeps the client
usually.
Mark
On 8/27/2012 7:56 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 3:53 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 8/27/2012 9:00 AM, Han wrote:
>> Some professionals relish the tools.
>>
>> Some professionals drive Porsche's to work, and only a small number of
>> those own Festools. I would relish a festool, but would be almost
>> ashamed to tell most what it cost. The prices border, no, are,
>> ridiculous.
> I suppose that all has to do with the neighborhood you live in
Depends far more on prices that other quality tools are that will do the
job.
> and the quality of work you produce.
Bullshit. The quality of ones work in no way, shape or form depends on
whether you use a shop vac or festool, a Milwaukee or festool, or even a
Ryobi or a festool. You can sell that to guys that have their shop in
their living room, but not to me.
Would you be ashamed to tell some one in an apartment how much you paid
for your home?
If I paid 2x or more than my home is worth, yes.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/27/2012 8:10 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 3:27 PM, Jack wrote:
>> On 8/27/2012 9:39 AM, Dave wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:51:44 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> there tools to rich oil men that like to brag about how much more their
>>>> tool cost than your tool, and to rich bankers that just want the best
>>>> vacuum cleaner made, and dollars counts, particularly at rich cocktail
>>>> parties where the other rich guys get to talking (bragging) about tools
>>>> and Bentleys, whilst sucking on a bottle of Montrachet 1978 from
>>>> Domaine
>>>> de la Romanée-Conti.
>>>
>>> Really, a little personal prejudice there don't you think Jack?
>>
>> Personal opinion based on many, many years of experience.
>>
>>> Someone unfamiliar with Festool and reading your comment above might
>>> think people buy Festool just so they can brag about it.
>>
>> Well, I did mention rich bankers that wanted the best money could buy.
>>
>>> Do you own *any* Festool products Jack?
>>
>> Hell no, but you wanna send me one I'll be more than happy to play with
>> it. Same with a Bentely or a bottle of Montrachet 1978. I won't try
>> the booze though.
>>
>> Have you ever even tried one or more of their products out?
>>
>> Only at the store, but I don't need to try one out to know what they
>> cost. My statements do not question there quality, just the price.
>>
>> I never saw anyone actually use one but I've been out of the loop for
>> years. However, several months ago when we had the same basic
>> discussion, I was at my favorite low class watering hole that was having
>> a club election and was packed with people I knew. 6 of them were
>> tradesman, 2 general contractors, one carpenter one drywall guy, and a
>> body man and a mechanic. 3 were in the business for around 50 years, and
>> still working. 3 were mid forties and only been doing it for 20 some
>> years. I asked each one of them about Festools, and only one ever heard
>> of them. He was a contractor and he said he didn't own any because they
>> cost too much.
>
> Do any of these guys at your "low class watering hole" make a handsome
> living, wish that they could retire?
Nice try, but stupid. By "low class" I meant it was not a club that
cost $50 grand a year to belong.
> Is this low class watering hole a
> level or two above sitting under a bridge with homeless people drinking
> ripple?
Oh, damn, I forgot, you think a caddy truck is junk and I reckon drink
$500 bottles of wine whilst sucking up dirt with your $500 festering
vacuum cleaner.
> What quality of tools do you think the homeless use, do you
> think that perhaps they would think what you pay for tools is too much?
No, they wouldn't I don't pay $500 for a damn vac.
> It is all relative.
That's for sure.
>
>>
>> I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool, but
>> I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys are not
>> as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.
>
> I would not actually call those at the "low class watering hole" the
> real thing just because they don't use Festool.
They are the "real thing" because they are professionals that have been
in the business for 20 to 50 years. I know it must really piss you off
that most in the trades don't use festering tools, but that's how it is.
When I was in the
> automotive business, specifically the new car dealership business, I was
> the service sales manager. I had 35-40 mechanics and several made very
> good livings. One in particular was about two years younger than me,
> 27, and very often was the subject of conversation at the
> owner/management meeting held weekly. This particular mechanic very
> often made more money per month than the owner. We are talking in
> excess of $10K per month in 1983 dollars. He was truly the real thing
> too and bought the finest tools offered.
My guess is every one of the guys I mentioned make more money than the
other 35-40 mechanics you had working for you. Two of them make more
in a week than your guy makes a month. Not sure what that has to do
with anything, but, if you want to impinge upon their skills in the
trades because they don't use, or even heard of festools, you are
blowing smoke.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/27/2012 9:57 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:27:46 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool, but
>> I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys are not
>> as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.
>
> Many of their responses might be dependent on the type of contractors
> they were.
This is true. Two contractors did things like small building, garages,
homes, home additions, kitchen, bath remodeling, that sort of stuff.
One of those was the only guy that had ever heard of festool but didn't
own them. Two were carpenters, one was a dry wall contractor, one a
professional body man. All are very, very professional and all are
around tools and people that use them professionally. I was a bit
surprised they didn't even know what festools were. That means not only
didn't they use them, but no one else around them used them. You can
bet every one of them know what Milwaukee is, what snap on is, and so
on. I'd bet you would be hard pressed to name a brand, other than
festool they didn't know all about. That even surprised me.
But, just speaking about the Domino here, it would be
> really interesting to take your representative three contractors and
> show them what the Domino could do along side a biscuit joiner.
I don't know what a domino does that I'd need it for, and I'm a cabinet
maker? It's not a tool I dream about, much like I have no need for a
nail gun. If you want to give me a festool, I think I'd like the a
sander, but only because Leon said it makes sanding fun. That I'd like.
> Similarly, and again dependent on the type of contracting they did, I
> wonder how interested they'd be in some apparently regular sounding
> products that were mostly dust free.
Since you mentioned it, I asked the drywall contractor about the Festool
drywall sander. He said no one uses drywall sanders and laughed at me.
Regarding dust, he said when he makes dust, someone else cleans it up.
When he has to clean up, he makes no dust.
> I haven't done any home contracting for near thirty five years, but I
> *do* remember how much of a pain it was when working onsite in a
> client's home to keep it dust free.
Festool hasn't changed that. Home contracting usually starts with a
sledge hammer and sawzall. Does Festool make a dust free sledge or sawzall?
> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
> it was.
Yeah, right. I forgot, your Kreg jig makes no dust with a $500 festering
vac sucking up all those nasty drill filings. Youse guys kill me.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Dave wrote:
> There, I paraphrased Yoda a bit. Do or do not. Your choice. You're
> emulating Bill with all your questions. (Sorry Bill). They've been
> answered, maybe not to your ultimate satisfaction, but answered
> nevertheless.
>
Gosh, thanks for dragging me into this (LOL)! I thought I was getting
better...
On 8/27/2012 11:02 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
> If I was building in my shop, then there wasn't as much of an impact,
> but there was still some anyway you look at it. Despite Leon's over
> the top enthusiasm with Festool, he actually does a tremendous amount
> of work in his shop. Why should anybody doubt his claims of greatly
> increased efficiency?
I'm still pondering his claims that a festool sander makes sanding
almost fun. I can afford one, but I'm still pondering.
> As far as the rest of the tools you mentioned go, the only one I can
> comment to is the sanding. Festool sanders with the appropriate
> Festool dust collector are noticeably more efficient with the dust
> collection.
I question that. My sander has 8 holes to collect dust, it does not have
the middle 9th hole a festering sander has. My sander makes about no
dust when hooked up to my 35 year old $80 shop vac, or to my dust
collection system... no dust. I would bet money if I buy a festering
sander, and can find the appropriate non-standard hose fittings (thats
an assumption because my experience with super [over] high priced stuff
is they make everything non-standard so they can pry even more money out
of your pocket) it would be just as dust free as it would if I used a
$500+ festering vac.
That lack of a greater amount of dust *always* has a
> significant impact in a client's home.
Yawn.
> Now, if it's a total gut job, not much of a difference, but that
> wasn't my shtick back then.
>
> But, I understand all of what you're saying/asking. The march of
> Festool sales is inexorable. But, its pricing will always limit it to
> a certain strata.
Yes, rich banker that wants the best money can buy. That might include
some tradesman, but not many. That is there market, they want their
prices high, they will not budge, they don't allow sales. A sale would
ruin their image to the rich Texan oil guys, or the hobbyist school
teacher that makes too much money and thinks he can build a quality
cabinet if he just owned the best tools money can buy.
The sander still has my attention, fun is good at most any price! I'm
just a bit leery of Leon's "over the top enthusiasm", but he is right
about most everything in my experience.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/28/2012 7:57 AM, Dave wrote:
> Festool is really a pyramid scheme to sell faulty tools and created by
> some lowly (but now richer than Dog) stock boy who was employed by
> them before they became famous.
>
> So, there you have it. I've bared my soul. Dog help me.
Most everyone knew you were an idiot long before you 'bared your soul'
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:01:33 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Most everyone knew you were an idiot long before you 'bared your soul'
>
> And there goes Jack. His all encompassing lack of humour is perfect
> for his main gripe in life ~ SawStop and Steve Gass.
>
> Jack was at a low point before SawStop and Gass appeared on the scene,
> but now, everyday for Jack is one of indeterminable horror.
>
> I only have on wish in life. That wish is that Steven Gass buys the
> property next to where Jack lives and turns it into a SawStop
> manufacturing facility.
>
Dave, Do you have a SS?
On 8/28/2012 1:53 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/28/2012 9:09 AM, Jack wrote:snip
>> Oh, damn, I forgot, you think a caddy truck is junk and I reckon drink
>> $500 bottles of wine whilst sucking up dirt with your $500 festering
>> vacuum cleaner.
>
>
> No, just making a comparison to what you might consider a level of
> quality and what I consider a level of quality and what someone else may
> consider a level of quality.
Do that to your hearts content, but I never questioned the "quality" of
Festools. I have, and do question their prices and I believe in the
laws of diminishing returns.
And I am still nowhere near as good as Tom
> Playman used to be. Just because yo know a group of guys that do what
> they do with a certain priced tool does not mean that they are the best
> at what they do.
I don't know anyone that is "best at what they do". I never said the
professionals that I asked about festools were the best on earth, but
they have been in the business professionally for many, many years and
only one ever heard of festool. This surprised even me, considering it
is not just them, but to never heard of festool, that means the people
working for them and around them don't use them either. That doesn't
mean festools are junk, but it means you and swing belittling people
because they don't recognize festool as the only way to go is more than
a little pompous.
>>> I would not actually call those at the "low class watering hole" the
>>> real thing just because they don't use Festool.
>>
>> They are the "real thing" because they are professionals that have been
>> in the business for 20 to 50 years. I know it must really piss you off
>> that most in the trades don't use festering tools, but that's how it is.
>
> Being a pro for 20~50 years does not prove anything.
It proves they are professionals and they don't use festering tools.
I am sure thse guys are great at what they do.
I am too.
That does not mean that they doe the absolute best job.
Well, they may make more noise than you do, hard to say, but they are
not "bit players" and from what I see and hear, you would be lucky if
you could afford them, and manage to hire them. They are not fly by night.
I am not pissed at all, If I were not better than
> the average pro wold not be picking and choosing the work I do. I lot
> of other pros work results make me look good.
I don't question your work just because you use high quality, overpriced
tools.
> Perhaps every one of the guys your mentioned made more money that any of
> my mechanics and even in 1983 dollars. The fact remained that the more
> expensive time saver tools that my guy used enabled him to make that
> large salary.
I worked in a large auto body/ motor repair shop when I was in collage.
I'd love to know what tools this guy was using that made him so much
better and faster than anyone else? I know awesome body guys, and great
mechanics, but all used mostly the same tools. My experience was it was
the guy, not the tools. I don't know any professional anything that uses
junk tools, and one day perhaps they will all be using festools, but I
wouldn't hold my breath as long as competition exists.
I did not know any better back then and questioned him
> about the money he spent on his tools.
What tools are these?
He reminded me how he would save
> contaminated diesel fuel and put it in the 55 gal drum in the bed of his
> diesel Pickup. He seldom paid for fuel. He did not spend money unless
> he could justify the cost.
In that case my guess is he would be more likely to have a high priced
$300 Fein shop vac than an overpriced $600 Festering "dust extractor"
Frugality recognizes the laws of diminishing returns.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/28/2012 2:18 PM, Leon wrote:
> I could probably afford to buy a used Rolls, maybe. ;~) Is the vehicle
> over priced? Will it do any thing that our new Camry will not do? Yes
> it will. Would I ever realize the advantage of the Rolls over the
> Camry? Probably not. Should I buy a Rolls? Probably not. If I were
> an "oil tycoon" trying to attract business with other oil tycoons, would
> they more appreciate being wined and dined in a Rolls or my Camry?
Well now we are getting somewhere. Replace Rolls with Festool, and we
are done.
I bet the Rolls guys have one of their gardener's extract the dust from
the Rolls, or Bentley, or both with a festering dust extractor.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/28/2012 1:46 PM, Dave wrote:
> Have you listened to a Festool dust collector? In no way shape or form
> can you compare it's quietness to any regular shrieking shop vac.
> Depending on the speed that one is set, it's a virtual hum. Although,
> I don't own a Festool sander, I've listened to and used one before.
> All it does is add another dimension to that virtual hum.
>
> Mike, you need to get your butt over to a Festool dealer's demo day
> and find out for yourself. Until then all you denials and refusal to
> agree count for nada. And similarly, until then you just don't have
> any basis to disagree with what's been said to you about Festool.
Mike does not need to own a festering tool to know that $600 for a shop
vac is a lot of money for a shop vac, excuse me, a "dust extractor"
Moreover, considering Mike paints cars for a hobby at least, he knows
all about sanding, sanding tools, and sanding noise. He knows enough
about it to recognize bull (hype).
Also, anyone that has used tools for most of their life can quickly
decide if they need a $600 festering drill or a $200 non-festering
drill. There is a reason Festool green is not used by everyone in the
business (no one in the business that I asked) Also, most people with
years of experience can laugh at dumb asses that think they can create
masterpieces if they just go out and spend their wives life savings on
the most expensive tools money can buy. It don't work that way.
Lastly, my sander has 8 holes and is so dust free I need no mask, see no
dust, when I hook up my 35 year old shop vac, I mean "dust extractor" to
it, or even my even older whole shop central dust collector (extractor).
I am certain I could care less about a festering tools one extra
hole, or claims of dust free usage. I am very interested in it's
durability, power, and a few other features that had me teetering more
than once on purchase. You can bet I can recognize the hype that I need
to invest $1200 in a shop vac and sander just to make less dust when
dust is already a non-issue with my 8 hole sander.
Oh, and I don't need or want a domino to make drawers, or to glue up
wide boards, or about 90% of the things they are used for.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/28/2012 3:38 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 8/28/2012 9:09 AM, Jack wrote:
>> I don't know what a domino does that I'd need it for, and I'm a cabinet
>> maker? It's not a tool I dream about, much like I have no need for a
>> nail gun. If you want to give me a festool, I think I'd like the a
>> sander, but only because Leon said it makes sanding fun. That I'd like.
>
> Let me ask you this. Would you like to build all of your cabinet face
> frames/frame and panel doors with mortise and tennon joints,
All my face frames I make with pocket hole screws, no interest in doing
it any other way.
> do you think that would be better than pocket hole screws or biscuits if it was
> accomplished in the same amount of time or less?
Door frames I generally would prefer using the shaper with frame and
panel bits, otherwise standard mortise and tenon or stub tenon works
fine. Still not interested in the Domino.
If you are adding
> 1.5"~2" wide borders, rails and stiles, to 3/4" plywood panels would you
> rather use mortise and tenons over pocket holes screws and biscuits if
> the could be done in the same or less amount of time?
I could see that for large panels, but not enough for me to go for a domino.
Do you think
> mortise and tenon joints would be stronger than pocket hole and or
> biscuit joints?
Strength is a non-issue, I would never ever buy a domino because pocket
holes or stub tenons were not strong enough. At least 10 billion frames
and panels made w/o and no problems with strength.
> This is what the Domino does to name a few. Or do you think that
> biscuits and pocket hole screws are good enough?
You mean tenons there, but yes, I do. Not saying a domino has zero
value, but yes, not worth much to me. I can see the value in wide
edging on large plywood table top.
> Given his answer of "no one uses dry wall sanders" do you believe that
> to be the actual truth?
Well I didn't take it literally, much like when people say they would
not like being forced to buy saw stop tech, I never thought they were
worried about Federal agents dropping in in black helicopters forcing
every man women and child to go out and buy a Saw Stop.
FWIW I don't know of any one that uses dry wall
> sanders either. I am not about to think that Festool is only selling
> dry wall sanders to hobbyist and millionaires.
Well, I don't know who they sell them too, and it seems neither do you,
nor does my professional dry wall guy. My guess is he has seen them in
use, but doesn't see the need, thus his comment.
>>> I haven't done any home contracting for near thirty five years, but I
>>> *do* remember how much of a pain it was when working onsite in a
>>> client's home to keep it dust free.
>> Festool hasn't changed that. Home contracting usually starts with a
>> sledge hammer and sawzall. Does Festool make a dust free sledge or
>> sawzall?
>
> I can assure you a competent contractor is not going to leave a heaping
> mess in a clients home every night, especially when the job runs into
> the tens of thousands of dollars over several weeks.
I can assure you the same thing, also, whether he uses a festering "dust
extractor" or a Fein "shop vacuum" makes little difference to the
homeowner.
> So when the time comes to start the reconstruction if there is a chance
> of not having to do a major dust clean up the smarter contractor is
> going to take advantage of that.
Still, if you are gutting a bathroom or a kitchen, you are going to make
dust, and I don't think festool makes a dust free sledge or sawzall.
>>> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
>>> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
>>> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
>>> it was.
Well I think all the shop vacs are quieter than my 35 year old, but even
my old one works fine and cleans nicely.
>> Yeah, right. I forgot, your Kreg jig makes no dust with a $500 festering
>> vac sucking up all those nasty drill filings. Youse guys kill me.
> And probably the reason there is a market for guys like us rather than
> you. I think you fall in the category of one that has become accustomed
> to one way of doing things after 20~30 years and simply have no
> tolerance for change.
I changed quickly to pocket holes for face frames, because the value is
obvious. I also see the value in a silent vacuum cleaner, but not
enough to spend 3x's as much than for one damn near just as quiet. I see
little/no value (to me) in a domino and I listened intently to all the
arguments. Jury is still out on what sander, if any, I should replace
my current one with. I don't make stuff like I did when I was younger,
and gung ho, so even if the $400 overpriced festool sander is worth it,
not sure it is to me, but, it is the one festool you have come close to
talking me into, but I hate sanding and fun is an interesting concept
I'm having trouble resisting (or believing, but believe it or not, I do
value your opinions:-)
> When did you change over to a computer?? ;~)
Huh? I wrote my first computer program in 1965, but no clue why you ask?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/28/2012 3:54 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/28/2012 2:38 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> When did you change over to a computer?? ;~)
>
> IIRC, Jack may still use OS/2. ;)
I wish! I still have OS/2 and my entire OPUS BBS system on a 486 on the
floor beside me. Hasn't been hooked up in 12 years but I bet it would
boot right up if I plugged her in. WIN has not caught up to OS/2 even
with XP and WIN 7. I will admit that XP almost worked, and WIN 7 is
getting there, but really, I don't think anyone at MS has a freaking
clue what they are doing, and must use way to many recreational drugs.
> (IIRC, I have a dim recollection of Jack on the Fido OS/2 echo back in
> the old days of computing ... I'd bet Mark Lewis and Lynn Nash ring a
> bell, eh Jack?)
No, but my memory is starting to fade a bit. I remember Rod Speed, I
fought over win/OS/2/UNIX in Dr. Debug with him for years. He was like
Upscale with a brain. I enjoyed debating/arguing then, just as I do now.
Interestingly, a year or two ago I looked in a windows newsgroup from
down under and low and behold, there was Rod arguing and belittling the
small folk over windows. It was him, I asked him. He was the only guy
I knew with half a [computer] brain that liked windows... strange dude
there, but great fun. He was quite obnoxious too, worse than me even.
I always suspected MS was pissing in his pocket.
Most everyone else is lost in the abyss.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/29/2012 10:28 AM, Leon wrote:
> But besides the dust collection the Rotex will darn near keep up with a
> belt sander in its aggressive mode with similar grit sand paper.
This is the feature that grabs my interest. I think my sander is
starting to act up a little, and sometimes goes into low speed mode.
Sometimes it jumps around a bit, which I thought was a power issue, but
you think it is too much suction. I don't think I get too much suction,
the small hose seems to limit that enough, but I wouldn't bet the farm
on that.
> The thing runs circles around any other ROS in that mode.
I like that part. Fast is what I want when it comes to sanding.
Actually, I'd rather get someone else to sand, or not sand at all. I
hate building big stuff mostly cause I hate sanding (and staining) big
stuff. Spraying finish I don't mind. Well, I do like sanding and
finishing on my lathe, that's fast and rather enjoyable.
Coupled with a Festool vac and perhaps a Fein vac you will only hear the
sander
> running, while that may not seem important, it is a very nice feature
> that is a pleasant added feature. Basically no noise fatigue, part of
> what makes sanding more fun. ;~)
Yeah, and I'm going to stop reading you... You are like a car salesman,
safer to avoid contact...
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/29/2012 7:29 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2012 10:01:33 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Most everyone knew you were an idiot long before you 'bared your soul'
>
> And there goes Jack. His all encompassing lack of humour is perfect
> for his main gripe in life ~ SawStop and Steve Gass.
Idiot!
My main gripe in life is MicroSoft and Bill Gates, but really, not Bill
Gates so much, just his dumb ass products. It's not even the junk
products, it's his overwhelming control of the market that forces me to
use his junk that bothers me.
> Jack was at a low point before SawStop and Gass appeared on the scene,
> but now, everyday for Jack is one of indeterminable horror.
It's not sawstop idiot, it's the gov't out to "help me" I don't need no
steenking gov't "helping me" decide what saw to buy.
> I only have on wish in life. That wish is that Steven Gass buys the
> property next to where Jack lives and turns it into a SawStop
> manufacturing facility.
If the gov't mandates everyone buys his saws, he would be best off not
building next to me.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 8/30/2012 10:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:24:29 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I wish! I still have OS/2 and my entire OPUS BBS system on a 486 on the
>> floor beside me. Hasn't been hooked up in 12 years but I bet it would
>> boot right up if I plugged her in. WIN has not caught up to OS/2 even
>> with XP and WIN 7. I will admit that XP almost worked, and WIN 7 is
>> getting there, but really, I don't think anyone at MS has a freaking
>> clue what they are doing, and must use way to many recreational drugs.
> I hear complaints like that often. For some reason though, the
> complainers continue to use the product
Yeah, monopolies are like that, particularly in OS's.
rather than make their own
> system that would be better, faster, cheaper.
That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2
was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN, but MS and IBM made
certain you would be using win garbage. What other system might have
arisen with equal playing fields can only be imagined. Monopolies are
like that.
> Once you do, let me
> know and I'll buy it. Meantime, I'm using MS products until yours
> hits the market.
You'll be the first to know. Meantime, I *know* you'll be using MS
products, monopolies are like that.
--
Jack
Pessimist: One who, when he has the choice of two evils, chooses both.
http://jbstein.com
Leon wrote:
The fixed pricing is good for the retailer and for you.
Hmmm... should you ever have to convince the customer of that?
> The retailer makes his profit and you rest assured that the price you pay at
> your favorite dealer is the best price available.
If you ever need another job, you should always be able to find ample
opportunities in sales! : )
>
> And then when you actually buy the tool and use it the cost of the tool
> some how seems to be justified and you generally don't give it a second
> thought.
That's true of just about everything we buy, I think. But,
rationally, it shouldn't affect whether you buy or not. See my comment
above.
Leon wrote:
> On 9/2/2012 8:38 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> And then when you actually buy the tool and use it the cost of the tool
>>> some how seems to be justified and you generally don't give it a second
>>> thought.
>>
>> That's true of just about everything we buy, I think. But,
>> rationally, it shouldn't affect whether you buy or not. See my comment
>> above.
>>
>>
>
> Providing you live a charmed life. There was a PC detail sander I
> bought, a Free Bosch Impact driver, numerous B& D tools, Skil, the list
> goes on. I give all of those second and third thoughts.
Yes, I forgot about those exceptions. They can be annoying, especially
when not much time has passed since the warranty period ran-out. That
reminds me of a microwave oven that I carried in and left on the floor
at Sears. They told me I couldn't leave it there, but I showed them they
were wrong. I was disgusted.
I try to avoid learning why cheap tools are cheap. I'm not a fanatic
though! Having used lesser, to me my DeWalt router is a fine tool! : )
On 8/31/2012 11:24 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:14:09 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>> I hear complaints like that often. For some reason though, the
>>> complainers continue to use the product
>>
>> Yeah, monopolies are like that, particularly in OS's.
>>
>> rather than make their own
>>> system that would be better, faster, cheaper.
>>
>> That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2
>> was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN, but MS and IBM made
>> certain you would be using win garbage. What other system might have
>> arisen with equal playing fields can only be imagined. Monopolies are
>> like that.
>>
>
> Ah, the conspiracy theory.
Anti-trust violations proved in court are not theory, but fact.
> Other systems are readily available, but people just don't seem to be
> flocking to them or demanding them. We have choices.
Yeah, glad you think so.
> August 2011, Gartner estimated Apple's PC market share in US as 10.7%
> for ... global desktop market share of Windows 92.2%, Apple 6.36%,
> Linux 1.41%.
August 2012, Jack estimated Windows DT market share was 93%. Could it be
Gartner is off by .08%?
Jack also estimated that based on how totally shitty MS products are,
and that their profit margins exceed even the steenking rich oil
companies profits by 3 times, that the good judge Stanley Sporkin was
exactly right when he found MS guilty of massive anti-trust violations
that resulted in the exact damage to world computing that Jack knew well
from first hand experience before the good judge made his decision. Of
course the victors of that decision, the DOJ appealed the victory, which
happens all the time, well at least once in the history of law. You can
bet it cost someone a LOT to appeal a victory.
That was in 1995. Nothing much changed except MS now donates tons of
money to our wonderful politicians to insure anti-trust laws hold little
weight when it comes to OS junk.
> We all don't drive the same car either, but people freely make
> choices.
Yeah, what auto company makes 30% profit margin and controls 92.2% of
the global market with a car that breaks down 1000's of times more
frequently than any of it's competitors? I reckon GM is on it's way to
that fortunate anti competitive position.
Are you ready for the American Tribant?
--
Jack
Got Change: General Motors =====> Government Motors!
http://jbstein.com
On 8/31/2012 1:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:14:09 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2
>> was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN,
>
> Agreed. I switched from OS/2 to WinNT 3.51 at work and Win2K at home (with
> the intention of going to Linux in a year or two - that never worked out).
>> but MS and IBM made certain you would be using win garbage.
> IBM? They just admitted defeat, after pretty much everyone else already had.
That's the party line. I suspect IBM pulled the plug when success was
imminent. Everyone in the OS/2 community was ecstatic because OS/2,
(with no help from IBM), just word of mouth from the PC community,
finally had reached what most considered critical mass, at 1 million
copies sold a month. IBM's response was not to start advertising, or do
anything even a 10 year old lemon aide stand entrepreneur would know to
do, but to yank it from the market. 2 + 2 = 7, always a reason to raise
a jaundiced eye
>> What other system might have
>> arisen with equal playing fields can only be imagined. Monopolies are
>> like that.
>
> It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into applications.
> Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them ubiquitous. Later,
> breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In the '90s, PCs were about where
> phones were in the '50s.
PC's are hardware, OS is software. Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today has
not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I suspected
the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks like I was
wrong, it already past that marker.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>
>>>
>>> It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into
>>> applications. Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them
>>> ubiquitous. Later, breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In
>>> the '90s, PCs were about where phones were in the '50s.
>>
>> PC's are hardware, OS is software. Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
>> but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
>> anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today
>> has not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I
>> suspected the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks
>> like I was wrong, it already past that marker.
>
> Not to mention that it has always been about both - operating systems and
> applications. Two distinctly different things. Regardless of whether we
> are talking about iPhones, Linux, Droids, PC's or iPads - both are part of
> the environment. The apps look different today, and that is not necessarily
> for the better - it all depends on what they do and what you want them to
> do.
>
People complain about the monopolistic OS makets, but one of the
realities is that it's a lot easier to develop software for everyone if
there are fewer platforms (platform = hardware + OS). Observation: Some
would argue that "virtual machines", like JVM (Java), reduce the number
of platforms.
Apple has demonstrated, to the satisfaction of most, that when one has
control over both the hardware and the software, better performance is
achievable.
Anyway, be careful what you wish for. Double the number of available
operating systems and watch the quality of some software drop 4-fold!
At least, "new bugs" are mostly tended to promptly these days. The time
to fix a problem is probably inverely-related to the numbers of users
and the cost of the software.
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> Anyway, be careful what you wish for. Double the number of available
>> operating systems and watch the quality of some software drop 4-fold!
>> At least, "new bugs" are mostly tended to promptly these days. The
>> time to fix a problem is probably inverely-related to the numbers of
>> users and the cost of the software.
>
> Or... not.
Increase the number of platforms significantly, and some applications
won't even be built..and those that are will cost more. And there will
be more bankrupt software development companies. You don't agree?
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, be careful what you wish for. Double the number of available
>>>> operating systems and watch the quality of some software drop
>>>> 4-fold! At least, "new bugs" are mostly tended to promptly these
>>>> days. The time to fix a problem is probably inverely-related to the
>>>> numbers of users and the cost of the software.
>>>
>>> Or... not.
>>
>>
>> Increase the number of platforms significantly, and some applications
>> won't even be built..and those that are will cost more. And there
>> will be more bankrupt software development companies. You don't
>> agree?
>
> One only has to look at the iPhone and the Android markets for the answer
> that contradicts that premise.
>
Or.. not.
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, be careful what you wish for. Double the number of available
>>>> operating systems and watch the quality of some software drop
>>>> 4-fold! At least, "new bugs" are mostly tended to promptly these
>>>> days. The time to fix a problem is probably inverely-related to the
>>>> numbers of users and the cost of the software.
>>>
>>> Or... not.
>>
>>
>> Increase the number of platforms significantly, and some applications
>> won't even be built..and those that are will cost more. And there
>> will be more bankrupt software development companies. You don't
>> agree?
>
> One only has to look at the iPhone and the Android markets for the answer
> that contradicts that premise.
>
An iPhone is more like a phone than a computing platform. A remote
server does any serious computing.
On 9/5/2012 6:43 PM, Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Jack wrote:
> People complain about the monopolistic OS makets, but one of the
> realities is that it's a lot easier to develop software for everyone if
> there are fewer platforms (platform = hardware + OS).
This is true, but limiting the folks to one platform eliminates
competition which is always bad for development and ultimately the
consumer. This is how the worlds worst OS becomes 93% of the market. Of
course greasing the wheels with cash to avoid anti-trust problems can't
hurt.
> Observation: Some
> would argue that "virtual machines", like JVM (Java), reduce the number
> of platforms.
>
> Apple has demonstrated, to the satisfaction of most, that when one has
> control over both the hardware and the software, better performance is
> achievable.
OS/2 ran OS/2 apps, DOS apps and win apps, all 100 times better than
DOS/WIN did, proving that better performance did not require a market
monopoly.
> Anyway, be careful what you wish for.
If you were sufficiently involved from the beginning, and intimately
familiar with DOS/WIN, OS/2 and UNIX, you know that is simply bogus.
Double the number of available
> operating systems and watch the quality of some software drop 4-fold!
Operating systems can compete in the same market, so the same software
is available across platforms. OS/2 is a simple example.
> At least, "new bugs" are mostly tended to promptly these days. The time
> to fix a problem is probably inverely-related to the numbers of users
> and the cost of the software.
Wrong, the number of "bugs" is directly related to the lousy OS
underlying the applications. For example, 99.999% of all "viruses" are
not viruses at all, but the direct result of a buggy OS that has no clue
what it is doing, and idiots writing software that does things that no
self-respecting OS would allow to happen.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 9/7/2012 7:09 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> Jack wrote:
> If wishes were fishes...
>
>
>>>
>>> Ah, the conspiracy theory.
>>
>> Anti-trust violations proved in court are not theory, but fact.
>
> Correct. The original verdict was against Microsoft and the Judge ordered
> the company broken up.
No, after 4 years of testimony the judge found the consent decree
reached by the DOJ and MS was insufficient and that the damages done to
the public did not match the redress sought by the DOJ, so he told the
DOJ to re-submit the redress with appropriate penalties. Instead, the
DOJ appealed the ruling (the victory, and the curious part of the case,
and imo the part that cost MS a ton of money and contributions to the
Clinton administration.) This was in 1995, and the testimony began in
1991, and made it explicitly clear how MS managed to control and
dominate the DT PC market with the worlds worst OS, and make 30% profit
margins whilst screwing the public.
> Yep. Sporking ripped up the settlement agreement reached between the DOJ and
> MS. The US Court of Appeals, however, ripped up Sporkin's judgement,
> reinstated the original settlement, and barred Sporkin from further action
> on the case.
Yeah, I said that. How much do you think that cost MS in cash
"donations" It would be like you suing Government Motors for damages
when their brakes failed, winning 100 million in damages in court, and
you appealing your victory, saying you only wanted 1 million in damages.
>> Yeah, what auto company makes 30% profit margin and controls 92.2% of
>> the global market with a car that breaks down 1000's of times more
>> frequently than any of it's competitors? I reckon GM is on it's way
>> to that fortunate anti competitive position.
>>
>
> I don't think you understand that a monopoly is not only good, but is
> sanctioned and encouraged by the Constitution of the United States.
You are very right, I don't understand that. I don't think you
understand that there are anti-trust laws that attempt to protect the
public from unethical marketing practices that result in the public
getting hosed, and MS is a PERFECT example of why these laws exist.
> When I say monopolies are "good," I'm referring to those that are not
> regulated by some level of government. Cable TV comes to mind.
What you say is usually interesting, but often also ludicrous. Greed is
good, monopolies are good, that sort of goofy stuff.
> Consider the poster-boy for monopolies: Standard Oil. The company reduced
> the price of Kerosene from $3.00/gallon to less than five cents. In less
> than three years.
You do realize that if the public is limited to buying w/o competition,
the product quality will not develop, prices will not reflect lowest
possible, and people will end up running the worlds worst OS on their
DT's with a dumb ass grin on their collective faces.
> Oh, sure, the people who sold whale oil for illumination got hurt, but for
> millions of others, the night became bearable.
> In the case of Microsoft, they have a competitor who is just as big and
> powerful as it is. The competitor is Microsoft itself.
There is one of your ludicrous statements again. Monopoly, what
monopoly, I compete with myself. You are special.
If the company does
> not produce and sell a new operating system, their revenue stream virtually
> dries up. The company HAS to compete with itself.
Yep, that's another problem with monopolies, they can sell pure junk and
then update it slightly every once in a while to force people to buy new
junk. With normal competition, when something is produced that is 100's
of times better and rock solid, you either keep up or go under. When it
doesn't work that way, you know something is amiss, just as the good
judge Sporkin correctly determined 17 years ago.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:09:36 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>there (which might have been accomplished another way with a different
>tool), just how much extra money has Festool made you? How much increase in
>revenue? Let's face it - the success of your business is you - not your
>tools.
Some of what you say is ultimately true, but then, the Domino is what
I first think of when I think "Festool".
My main interest in woodworking is cabinetmaking. Although I haven't
done it professionally for quite a few years, to the greatest extent,
I've used the same tried and true actions and tools to build my
cabinets. That's changed marginally over the years.
Enter the Domino. Now my cabinetmaking goes faster, is easier, more
exact and very much more efficient.
What if any tool have you ever owned that had a similar impact on you
Mike? I'm not usually the one to go overboard with a new tool, but the
impact the Domino had on my woodworking was profound. What else can I
say?
If you don't have a use for one, then no problem. But if you do have a
use for one and more than often than not, there's no substitute. And
that really has very little to do with the money.
On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 11:59:01 GMT, basilisk <[email protected]>
>I wasn't disappointed that they didn't have show discounts, but you never
>know until you ask, and if there had been a 10% discount I would have no
>longer been in control of my wallet.
You're right of course, show discounts or the possibility of them is
one of the biggest drawing cards for getting people to these shows.
Festool while common at most/many woodworking shows these days,
appears to operate on a different sales track.
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 15:57:04 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>Stop. You sound like Karl. A little reading comprehension would benefit
>the both of you. In no post have I either denied or refused to agree on
>anything. I have asked a lot of questions out of genuine interest, and
>tried to position my own needs. I have never disagreed with what has been
>said to me. Geeze - this is a text group, which implies a certain level of
>reading comprehension...
Have a look in the mirror Mike. We keep saying the same things to you
and you keep replying with the same answers. There is no reading
comprehension problem, it's time for you to stop trying to make some
sense of what we're saying and go do. Or do not. There is no try.
There, I paraphrased Yoda a bit. Do or do not. Your choice. You're
emulating Bill with all your questions. (Sorry Bill). They've been
answered, maybe not to your ultimate satisfaction, but answered
nevertheless.
On 8/28/2012 10:01 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
Snip
> So first off - as I have stated before, I am not of the camp that says that
> Festools are not worth their money.
And that is a perfectly appropriate and truthful response.
>
> To explain a bit...
>
> First off - right now, I don't do anything - or enough of anything that
> would justify (objectively), purchasing any of their tools. That said -
> objective decsions are only a small part of life. Translated - I have and I
> will probably continue to make purchases of cool things that I didn't
> "really need".
And that is a perfectly appropriate and truthful response.
>
> One aspect of my questions is that in my mental categories of tool
> purchases, I have a few different levels. On one level, there are tools
> that I am going to purchase, or upgrade in a fairly immediate timeframe.
> Those might be called my must have purchases. Like most people, I will do a
> good amount of research into the various options out there, and try hard to
> understand the real value or pitfalls of any particular option. I look to
> the experiences of others, I ask a lot of questions to understand just how
> valuable a feature may be - and for what reason to that person. That may,
> or it may not, ever apply to me. No matter - I like to understand it all.
And that is a perfectly appropriate and truthful response. ;~)
>
> Sometimes, I will make a purchase that is well over what I really need to do
> a job well. Sometimes it's just because that's what I want. Not so
> different from picking out a wife. A lot of women will do from a functional
> standpoint, but then there's that one model that you really want... I'm
> fine with the idea that I over purchased a tool just because that's the tool
> I really wanted.
And that is a perfectly appropriate and truthful response. ;~)
>
> Then there's a category of purchases that are best described as "when this
> breaks, I'm going to replace it with XXX". In that category, I like talking
> with other guys about what they have and why they like it or dislike it. I
> like to dig in with questions so that I really understand those positions as
> well. This is sort of a research mode, knowing that said purchase is out
> there a little bit, and I'm just trying to prepare myself so that I am ready
> to pull the trigger when the time comes.
>
> Finally, there is my wish list category. Most likely, most things on my
> wish list will still be wish list items when I die. They just are not that
> necessary for me, or for some other reason, they are not going to bubble up
> to the top of my needs list. But - I do like having a wish list.
FWIW Festool is probably never going to make sense from a hobbyist
perspective, from an immediate cost perspective. It rate way near the
top with the wow factor for a hobbyist. I sort'a kind'a fell in that
category originally. But I could afford it and took the plunge with the
Festool vac and Domino. Robaytoy, bless his heart, steered me towards
the Rotex to replace my 25 year old PC ROS which was a killer sander.
DAMN, these tools make work easier, faster, and more accurate. These
tools are saving me serious time therefore I am building better with
more details to strength. Pocket holes replaced by mortise and tennon
joints.
> I enjoy speaking with other guys and asking more about their preferences and
> decisions, and I enjoy when they point out the specific things that they see
> as valuable in a tool. That may or it may not apply to me and my uses, but
> it does give me a good solid understanding of that perceived value. What
> leaves me feeling short are statements like "Time is money". "If you were a
> pro..." and that sort of comment. I don't disagree with those comments at
> all, and I even understand that busy people make short statements - that's
> all fine. I continue to ask because I do believe those statements, and try
> to quantify what they mean. Dave has been particularly good in this area.
> He has pointed out two specific features of his Festools (I know, I
> know...), that are very significant to him and the way he works today,
> and/or that would have been very valuable to him in his past career. For
> him, dust collection/mitigation and associated noise is very important.
> Very good - I get that and I can put that into a value niche in my mental
> categories. Leon, likewise. I understand how valuable the Domino was for
> him to create 100 drawers. Not that I would likely ever find myself in that
> position, but in a parallel sense, I can quickly see where building 10
> drawers could benefit from that technology. This kind of dialog is very
> valuable.
>
> So - in the end, my questions are genuine and play a part in one of my
> mental categories. It's part of the fellowship of sharing experiences, etc.
> I even get it that a guy might become an advocate of a tool just because -
> well, just because. Hell, we do sometimes buy things - just because. And I
> have room for that in my categories. I just look to understand if that is
> the reason, or if there are other things to quantify.
>
> A poster here seems to take offense at the questioning by others, of things
> he has proclaimed. I don't lose any sleep over those kinds of people - this
> group is not about their declarations. I do enjoy those who engage in this
> dialog without feeling threatened by another guy asking about their
> purchases. I might never make the same purchase - or I might. I like that
> this forum can be a part of that whole process.
In case I am that poster, I absolutely do not take exception to
questions and welcome them. I will give you "MY" experience answers,
not what some one else has said, unless I qualify/identify, with that
some one else said. What I get irritated with is the same question
about the same thing from another angle when presented in an
argumentative fashion. I am not selling and you can take my answers or
leave them, I have nothing to gain with proving anything I say.
>
Snip
>
> I apprecaite those who have shared thier experiences, those who embrace the
> questions I ask, and those who do not preconceive what I might be thinking.
>
Jack and I have gone round and round about the value/pricing of the
Festool brand. We have come to an agreement but at the beginning of
this thread he stated,
"That's a part of it.
And unfortunately, offering those products at a higher price point.
That's the other part, and the reason you won't see Festering Tools on
sale, and also why they are rarely used by professionals. They market
there tools to rich oil men that like to brag about how much more their
tool cost than your tool, and to rich bankers that just want the best
vacuum cleaner made, and dollars counts, particularly at rich cocktail
parties where the other rich guys get to talking (bragging) about tools
and Bentleys, whilst sucking on a bottle of Montrachet 1978 from Domaine
de la Romanée-Conti.
In other words, part of the shtick is pricing from hell. Sort of like
joining a country club that cost $50g's a year, plus $300 for a round of
golf, and a 1.50 beer costs $9. "
And those statements come from ignorance of the product and are
absolutely just one persons assumption of.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:24:42 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Don't take this the wrong way but until you actually do this for a
>living you have no idea. Time is money, you should know this and beyond
>any other feature the Festool tools in large are extreme time savers.
I think it all comes down to the money Leon and the naysayers are
afraid of spending the money and then regretting it.
Since almost all Festool dealers hold Festool days where you can go
and try your desired tool out, there's no reason not to do so. The
only reason people haven't done so is fear ~ fear of opening their
wallets.
Money is always what it comes down to and I'd guess why Festool keeps
their products priced where they do. If they were cheaper and priced
competitively with the other manufacturers on the market, those
manufacturers would be forced to better their stuff to compete. Then
Festool *would* lose market share.
'basilisk[_2_ Wrote:
> ;2916596']Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell
> out the bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>
> When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts,
> his exact words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
>
> basilisk
>
>
> --
> A wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse
Hello everyone, i am the one reffered to as the "Festool Guy " at the
2012 IWF show, just to clear a few things up, i was not working for
festool or 'Tools for Working Wood: Welcome'
(http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com) who actually paid for the booth, im
a cabinet builder who was subcontracted out by toolsforworkingwood in
effort to show how much they as a retailer care about you as a client
that they are willing to shell out upwards of 10k to demo tools for you
and answer most questions to the best of their ability, they have
invested tons of time and effort into creating the conveniance of a
mobile site but without loosing the personal touch of a family ran
establishment, how many other retailers can you say the same for? With
that being said all the tools you saw at my booth were tools that belong
to me, minus a few sanders and the router table, i paid full retail
price for these tools hence my statement...now as far as your comment
about having a show special, festool just like any other company doesnt
want to start giving discounts because they dont want to devalue their
tool, they want you to base your decision of where to buy not by how
much of a discount you can get but by how good the dealer is, their
knowledge of the tools and their customer service... Try calling amazon
and asking them if you can use a 1/4" collet in your 2200 router, their
honest opinion about the surefix.... I have been to dealerships who have
one employee that was sent to festool training who is a total burnout
and cant even answer which sandpaper to use on bare wood. Now in my
opinion when your spending 600 bucks on a dust extractor i would love to
have someone tell me why its worth that 600, tell me its features and
benefits and how it is intergradable with other festool products and
even other brand tools... Rather than hearing here it is, on /off, 600$
so you want it? sales aspect aside, what about the aftermath? Yes all
festools are built solid with the best of parts and most likely you will
not need repairs or service but if something does go wrong festool is
there and they always have been in my experiance, you call, they have
answers, they will send you parts, the guy you speak on the phone with
will most likely be the same guy that will be working on your machine.
then we have the tool price it self, development, testing, marketing
etc... Makita and dewalt ripped off festool tracksaw, would i buy either
those brands? Absolutely not, for a few reasons, one they are still POS
tools made in china with inferior parts. Once the prices go down so does
everything else along with it, as a cabinet builder the only time i can
drop my price is if i use cheaper materials because my labor will not
change, so i most likely will thank you and walk away from the project
because i refuse to put my hard work into an inferior end product, if
you want to compete for jobs with the laborers that stand in front of
big box stores you might as well stick to buying tools from those same
stores as well.
Regards
Lucas
--
lucasP
Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
> If I've done my research, perhaps that is all that is needed. To be
> fair, I won't take an hour of your time at the full price dealer and
> then go to the discounter to buy and save a few bucks. That is
> unethical, yet done every day. I don't know how to stop it.
Festool does ...
--
www.ewoodshop.com
On 8/27/2012 8:01 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> So, yes, I do have a couple of Festools.
> There are several tools in their lineup that I just can't justify, though.
Yep ... I haven't seen a _need_ thus far to own anything other than the
four Festool sanders, a TS75 track saw, and the CT22E dust extractor
that can be used with all the above.
While a few of their other products would be "nice to have" (some
drills, the big Domino) I really can't justify replacing the excellent
tools I already own that perform those jobs unless there is a clear
need, and opportunity (I generally price absolutely _required_ tools
into a job, upfront ... not everyone can do that) to do so.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 8/27/2012 3:27 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 8/27/2012 9:39 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:51:44 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> there tools to rich oil men that like to brag about how much more their
>>> tool cost than your tool, and to rich bankers that just want the best
>>> vacuum cleaner made, and dollars counts, particularly at rich cocktail
>>> parties where the other rich guys get to talking (bragging) about tools
>>> and Bentleys, whilst sucking on a bottle of Montrachet 1978 from Domaine
>>> de la Romanée-Conti.
>>
>> Really, a little personal prejudice there don't you think Jack?
>
> Personal opinion based on many, many years of experience.
>
>> Someone unfamiliar with Festool and reading your comment above might
>> think people buy Festool just so they can brag about it.
>
> Well, I did mention rich bankers that wanted the best money could buy.
>
>> Do you own *any* Festool products Jack?
>
> Hell no, but you wanna send me one I'll be more than happy to play with
> it. Same with a Bentely or a bottle of Montrachet 1978. I won't try
> the booze though.
>
> Have you ever even tried one or more of their products out?
>
> Only at the store, but I don't need to try one out to know what they
> cost. My statements do not question there quality, just the price.
>
> I never saw anyone actually use one but I've been out of the loop for
> years. However, several months ago when we had the same basic
> discussion, I was at my favorite low class watering hole that was having
> a club election and was packed with people I knew. 6 of them were
> tradesman, 2 general contractors, one carpenter one drywall guy, and a
> body man and a mechanic. 3 were in the business for around 50 years, and
> still working. 3 were mid forties and only been doing it for 20 some
> years. I asked each one of them about Festools, and only one ever heard
> of them. He was a contractor and he said he didn't own any because they
> cost too much.
Do any of these guys at your "low class watering hole" make a handsome
living, wish that they could retire? Is this low class watering hole a
level or two above sitting under a bridge with homeless people drinking
ripple? What quality of tools do you think the homeless use, do you
think that perhaps they would think what you pay for tools is too much?
It is all relative.
>
> I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool, but
> I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys are not
> as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.
I would not actually call those at the "low class watering hole" the
real thing just because they don't use Festool. When I was in the
automotive business, specifically the new car dealership business, I was
the service sales manager. I had 35-40 mechanics and several made very
good livings. One in particular was about two years younger than me,
27, and very often was the subject of conversation at the
owner/management meeting held weekly. This particular mechanic very
often made more money per month than the owner. We are talking in
excess of $10K per month in 1983 dollars. He was truly the real thing
too and bought the finest tools offered.
>
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 16:51:18 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
>Some folks do buy for that reason - I've seen it :-).
Sure, I know it too. But, it's not near as universal as some would
have us believe.
>That pretty much describes my feelings about Festool. From what I can
>tell they really are top of the line, but until money is no object, I'll
>take the runner-up.
And that's why the runner ups will always thrive. I've got one or four
routers sitting here that have served me for a long time. Would I like
a $1000 Festool OF 2200? You're damned right I would, but at this
point in my life it can't make enough of a change for me to commit.
And, I need the money for other things.
But, I do own several other Festool products, the Domino being the
most important one. (It's actually Leon's fault.) After seeing what it
could do compared to my lowly biscuit joiner, and with copious amounts
of questions happily answered by Leon, I ran out to get one. Haven't
regretted it one day since.
Jack wrote:
If wishes were fishes...
>>
>> Ah, the conspiracy theory.
>
> Anti-trust violations proved in court are not theory, but fact.
Correct. The original verdict was against Microsoft and the Judge ordered
the company broken up. The D.C. Court of Appeals, however, overturned the
verdict. On September 6th, 2001, the DOJ announced it was dropping many of
its demands, such as a breakup of the company. The company and the DOJ
finally reached a settlement out of court.
>
>> Other systems are readily available, but people just don't seem to be
>> flocking to them or demanding them. We have choices.
>
> Yeah, glad you think so.
>
>> August 2011, Gartner estimated Apple's PC market share in US as 10.7%
>> for ... global desktop market share of Windows 92.2%, Apple 6.36%,
>> Linux 1.41%.
>
> August 2012, Jack estimated Windows DT market share was 93%. Could it
> be Gartner is off by .08%?
>
> Jack also estimated that based on how totally shitty MS products are,
> and that their profit margins exceed even the steenking rich oil
> companies profits by 3 times, that the good judge Stanley Sporkin was
> exactly right when he found MS guilty of massive anti-trust violations
> that resulted in the exact damage to world computing that Jack knew
> well from first hand experience before the good judge made his
> decision. Of course the victors of that decision, the DOJ appealed
> the victory, which happens all the time, well at least once in the
> history of law. You can bet it cost someone a LOT to appeal a
> victory.
Yep. Sporking ripped up the settlement agreement reached between the DOJ and
MS. The US Court of Appeals, however, ripped up Sporkin's judgement,
reinstated the original settlement, and barred Sporkin from further action
on the case.
>
> Yeah, what auto company makes 30% profit margin and controls 92.2% of
> the global market with a car that breaks down 1000's of times more
> frequently than any of it's competitors? I reckon GM is on it's way
> to that fortunate anti competitive position.
>
I don't think you understand that a monopoly is not only good, but is
sanctioned and encouraged by the Constitution of the United States.
When I say monopolies are "good," I'm referring to those that are not
regulated by some level of government. Cable TV comes to mind.
Consider the poster-boy for monopolies: Standard Oil. The company reduced
the price of Kerosene from $3.00/gallon to less than five cents. In less
than three years.
Oh, sure, the people who sold whale oil for illumination got hurt, but for
millions of others, the night became bearable.
In the case of Microsoft, they have a competitor who is just as big and
powerful as it is. The competitor is Microsoft itself. If the company does
not produce and sell a new operating system, their revenue stream virtually
dries up. The company HAS to compete with itself.
On 8/28/2012 10:10 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> I sort'a agree, there is no risk what so ever unless you consider
>> liking and wanting to keep a tool you clearly can not afford. Every
>> new Festool tool comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Simply
>> put, those that want to argue the merits just want to argue or have no
>> business spending this kind of money in the first place.
>
> Almost every tool you buy today comes with a 30 day money back gurantee -
> that is nothing special. You are starting to sound like Karl - questions
> posed to you are rephrased as having been "arguments". Leon - that is not
> right, nor is it even fair.
Mike I think you are just wanting to argue. I never said that no other
tool had a 30 day money back guarantee, I simply stated that every new
Festool comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Referring back to
what Dave mentioned, "I think it all comes down to the money Leon and
the naysayers are afraid of spending the money and then regretting it,
there should be no regret in buying a Festool as it is returnable. No
danger of being stuck with the tool if you don't believe you are getting
what you are paying for.
BUT if you have no business spending this kind of money for a tool it
would be stupid to buy the tool to start with.
I could probably afford to buy a used Rolls, maybe. ;~) Is the vehicle
over priced? Will it do any thing that our new Camry will not do? Yes
it will. Would I ever realize the advantage of the Rolls over the
Camry? Probably not. Should I buy a Rolls? Probably not. If I were
an "oil tycoon" trying to attract business with other oil tycoons, would
they more appreciate being wined and dined in a Rolls or my Camry?
>
>>
>> If you are uncomfortable with spending the money for this caliber of
>> quality tool there should be no problem, simply continue to use what
>> you have or can afford. We all have been there, some of us with open
>> minds have taken the chance and now know better, the tool is worth
>> every penny given the need.
>>
>
> That last statement is not like you Leon. Now you are really starting to
> sound like Karl. "Those of us with open minds..."????? Do you really feel
> that proud of yourself, and do you really feel that those who ask questions
> are that inferior to you? I had never seen this side of you before. But...
You are not simply asking questions for information, you are asking
question to be argumentative. You ask questions, I give you answers.
You do not like the answers so you are offended. Sorry.
>
>
>> And for those that think that a customer would not appreciate the
>> difference in the quality of tools, perhaps you have reached your
>> limit of expertise.
>
> Yup - I'm just a schmuck.
Well Mike if that is the way you feel, I never thought that. Quit
trying to read something into what I have actually said.
Forget the customer satisfaction that I have
> developed over the years. Me and people like me who ask questions, must be
> the lesser folks. Leon - you have transgressed...
No Mike, you have put your self in that classification. Perhaps you
think you have reached your limit of expertise. I would not know, only
you would.
>
>
>> But for example if you had to have a tooth
>> pulled would you rather have a dentist use modern equipment and
>> anesthetics or would you be OK with a pair of pliers and a shot of
>> whiskey?
>
> Leon - you have a propensity for using the most wrong anologies.
>
I believe it to be a very good comparison, perhaps a bit exaggerated but
sometimes you have to paint a picture.
On 8/28/2012 9:22 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:19:10 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
> MM said:
>>> In an almost humorous way, I see you Festoolians as kind of a cult. I can
>>> hear the weird background music start every time a thread pops up with a
>>> mention of Festool in it. So, I ask my questions out of mere curiosity more
>>> than anything else. Do you guys have secret chants and all that stuff?...
>>
>> Do you have a chant when you use your spray gun vs. when your neighbor
>> paints with a rattle can of paint?
>
> Nice deflection.
>
> To answer Mike's question, it has been said that the official Festool
> mantra is "SYS tay ner" by at least 3 background chanters during the
> ritual. A few say it's even more effective when chanted in German.
LOL....
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:14:09 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I hear complaints like that often. For some reason though, the
>> complainers continue to use the product
>
>Yeah, monopolies are like that, particularly in OS's.
>
> rather than make their own
>> system that would be better, faster, cheaper.
>
>That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2
>was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN, but MS and IBM made
>certain you would be using win garbage. What other system might have
>arisen with equal playing fields can only be imagined. Monopolies are
>like that.
>
Ah, the conspiracy theory.
Other systems are readily available, but people just don't seem to be
flocking to them or demanding them. We have choices.
August 2011, Gartner estimated Apple's PC market share in US as 10.7%
for ... global desktop market share of Windows 92.2%, Apple 6.36%,
Linux 1.41%.
We all don't drive the same car either, but people freely make
choices.
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:01:29 -0400, "[email protected]"
>simply wait until I can. I can now afford pretty much whatever I can justify
>to myself. I may have to wait for a while to buy the best but if it's
>important to me, that's what I buy. So, yes, I do have a couple of Festools.
>There are several tools in their lineup that I just can't justify, though.
Agree with that 100%. I've also noticed one other thing too. As I've
gotten older, I've been greatly appreciating the quality aspect of
things.
Consider food when I was younger. It most often was quantity over
quality that was foremost in my mind. Now it's done a 180° and quality
is paramount.
Hell, I can't eat near as much as I could so quality is just about the
only thing left to look forward to. :)
On 8/27/2012 9:32 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
>>
>> My main interest in woodworking is cabinetmaking. Although I haven't
>> done it professionally for quite a few years, to the greatest extent,
>> I've used the same tried and true actions and tools to build my
>> cabinets. That's changed marginally over the years.
>>
>> Enter the Domino. Now my cabinetmaking goes faster, is easier, more
>> exact and very much more efficient.
>
> I try to make an exception for the Domino in what I write, because it does
> seem to be a bit of a leap in joinery. That said - it was not that long ago
> that everyone was saying how superior DT was over a joint like a Domino. It
> seems that Domino has taken over in a very small circle of users, just based
> on ease of use. Maybe that is good enough - I'm not criticizing it. Just
> saying...
Apples and oranges. DT's are basically not used for mortise and tenon
joints. I am not sure any one has said that a DT was superior to a
Domino. Do you know what a Domino is actually used for???
>
>>
>> What if any tool have you ever owned that had a similar impact on you
>> Mike? I'm not usually the one to go overboard with a new tool, but the
>> impact the Domino had on my woodworking was profound. What else can I
>> say?
>
> I understand that Dave - and again... I'm really not trying to be critical
> of anyone, or of Festool. All I was trying to ask is what is the real
> increased value of this wildly proclaimed tool? It was not that long ago
> where the same people here were raving about this or that DT jig that
> reduced their work and all that stuff. I get it - things change and
> improve, and all I'm asking is by how much? Especially in light of the
> cost. In fact - at that time it was often heard (here) that a joint like
> that which a Domino makes, was inferior to a DT joint.
Again, DT's and mortises. How would "You" use a DT jig to for a union
of a rail and stile?
On 8/26/2012 1:33 PM, Han wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 8/26/2012 8:32 AM, Han wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On 8/25/2012 8:37 PM, basilisk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Festool had a booth at the show and I was prepared to shell
>>>>> out the bucks for a domino had they offered a show discount.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I ask the guy running the booth about show discounts,
>>>>> his exact words were "You have to be kidding, I pay retail"
>>>>>
>>>>> basilisk
>>>>
>>>> If those were his exact words, he was being tacky.
>>>>
>>>> But Festool has one price. The only way to get a reduced price that
>>>> I know of is either buying at an introductory price, buying in
>>>> combination with a Festool Vac, buying a reduced discontinued item,
>>>> buying from a company that is going out of business/no longer going
>>>> to carry Festool, and or IIRC buying the occasional refurbished unit
>>>> directly from Festool.
>>>>
>>>> Their tools are worth every penny you spend and are a good value if
>>>> you actually have a need for this quality of tool.
>>>>
>>>> The good thing about paying the same price as every one else,
>>>> regardless of where you live, is that you do not have to worry that
>>>> you are paying more than what you would pay anywhere else. Support
>>>> your local dealer!
>>>>
>>>> Is Festool expensive? Yes, to some. Is PC expensive? Yes, to
>>>> some. Is Ryopbi expensive? Yes, to some. Is Harbor Freight
>>>> expensive? Yes, to some.
>>>
>>> Exactly. They are introducing some new tools for sale starting in
>>> October. Watch the sales Leon mentioned. And do support your local
>>> dealer.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Hey Han, have you seen the NEW Festool Impact Driver? Huh, did ya,
>> did ya? LOL
>
> I saw something like that in the email I got. Seems like that is an
> essential pice of equipment for you and Karl. What about the router
> table?
>
Ill take a look at the impact, but seriously, I thought for sure I would
add it when it came out but that was before I actually used the T15
drill. After using the T15 for several jobs including driving a few
hundred 3" torx deck screws I may not get one. The T15 is truly much
stronger and has much more torque than the Makita that it replaced.
I am not sure about the router table, I don't have a Festool router yet
and the table is probably designed for that particular router. My Bench
dog router table and Triton router work very well together, for now. ;~)
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 12:14:09 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 8/30/2012 10:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:24:29 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> I wish! I still have OS/2 and my entire OPUS BBS system on a 486 on the
>>> floor beside me. Hasn't been hooked up in 12 years but I bet it would
>>> boot right up if I plugged her in. WIN has not caught up to OS/2 even
>>> with XP and WIN 7. I will admit that XP almost worked, and WIN 7 is
>>> getting there, but really, I don't think anyone at MS has a freaking
>>> clue what they are doing, and must use way to many recreational drugs.
>
>> I hear complaints like that often. For some reason though, the
>> complainers continue to use the product
>
>Yeah, monopolies are like that, particularly in OS's.
>
> rather than make their own
>> system that would be better, faster, cheaper.
>
>That's one of the stupider things I've heard in a while. Besides, OS/2
>was a much, much, much better OS than DOS/WIN,
Agreed. I switched from OS/2 to WinNT 3.51 at work and Win2K at home (with
the intention of going to Linux in a year or two - that never worked out).
>but MS and IBM made certain you would be using win garbage.
IBM? They just admitted defeat, after pretty much everyone else already had.
>What other system might have
>arisen with equal playing fields can only be imagined. Monopolies are
>like that.
It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into applications.
Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them ubiquitous. Later,
breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In the '90s, PCs were about where
phones were in the '50s.
>> Once you do, let me
>> know and I'll buy it. Meantime, I'm using MS products until yours
>> hits the market.
>
>You'll be the first to know. Meantime, I *know* you'll be using MS
>products, monopolies are like that.
Only because there aren't any better mousetraps. There *are* others but not
"better".
On Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:43:45 -0400, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:26:49 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>>On 8/27/2012 9:30 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dave wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
>>>>> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
>>>>> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
>>>>> it was.
>>>>
>>>> As long as you are cutting Dominos. How does that help with the larger
>>>> percentage of the work done on site? Think circular saws, table saws,
>>>> drills, sanders, etc.? I just can't see where this green stuff is that
>>>> significantly better in the real world of working on a total project.
>>>
>>> Can't beat a track saw for cutting sheet goods accurately.
>>>
>>
>>
>>AND the cut being the final cut. And that is not just a Festool thing
>>any more, the Makita and DeWalt saws can do this now also although I
>>could not testify as to which works better in all aspects.
>
>I looked at them before I bought the Festool. They aren't really any cheaper
>and the Fesstool has more accessories available.
To appreciate Festool you have to look at their system approach. If I
was a contractor doing onsite work I would be owning much more then I
do.
Mike M
On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:51:44 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>there tools to rich oil men that like to brag about how much more their
>tool cost than your tool, and to rich bankers that just want the best
>vacuum cleaner made, and dollars counts, particularly at rich cocktail
>parties where the other rich guys get to talking (bragging) about tools
>and Bentleys, whilst sucking on a bottle of Montrachet 1978 from Domaine
>de la Romanée-Conti.
Really, a little personal prejudice there don't you think Jack?
Someone unfamiliar with Festool and reading your comment above might
think people buy Festool just so they can brag about it.
Do you own *any* Festool products Jack? Have you ever even tried one
or more of their products out?
I'm not attacking you, just your statement that seems to be rife with
bias for some reason.
On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 17:56:59 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Jack wrote:
>
>>>
>>> It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into
>>> applications. Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them
>>> ubiquitous. Later, breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In
>>> the '90s, PCs were about where phones were in the '50s.
>>
>> PC's are hardware, OS is software. Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
>> but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
>> anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today
>> has not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I
>> suspected the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks
>> like I was wrong, it already past that marker.
>
>Not to mention that it has always been about both - operating systems and
>applications. Two distinctly different things. Regardless of whether we
>are talking about iPhones, Linux, Droids, PC's or iPads - both are part of
>the environment.
Right. It's the apps that sell everything else. In the end, that's what
killed OS/2 and what's keeping Linux in the geek world (significant embedded,
now, though).
> The apps look different today, and that is not necessarily
>for the better - it all depends on what they do and what you want them to
>do.
I think it's a pretty good use of the hardware we now have. I can't imagine a
command line Sketchup. ;-)
Jack wrote:
>
> Large amounts of money can get crooked people to do all sorts of
> things, like the above. The real truth is this:
>
> Sporkin's most controversial decision came in 1995 in one of the most
> widely followed antitrust cases of the decade. Following a four-year
> investigation, the Department of Justice had entered an agreement with
> computer software giant Microsoft, Inc., to reform licensing practices
> that the department said were monopolistic. Under provisions in the
> Tunney Act (15 U.S.C.A. § 16(e) [1988]), Sporkin had the authority to
> review the consent decree to determine if it was in the public
> interest. In addition to criticizing Microsoft during the hearings,
> he took the rare step of allowing its competitors to file
> friend-of-the-court (amicus curiae) briefs anonymously so as to
> protect them from retaliation by Microsoft. Ultimately, Sporkin
> rejected the consent decree as being insufficient and ordered the
> Justice Department to expand its investigation. (United States v.
> Microsoft Corp., 159 F.R.D. 318 [D.D.C. 1995]).
>
> In a surprising move, both the Justice Department and Microsoft filed
> separate appeals.
>
> [/surprising that a victor appeals victory/]
>
> Not only did both parties win, but Sporkin was removed from the case
> by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit for
> apparent bias; the court then remanded the case to another judge with
> orders to approve the consent decree (United States v. Microsoft
> Corp., 56 F.3d 1448 [D.C. Cir. 1995]).
>
> [/consider the good judge heard 4 years of testimony before becoming
> "biased". Consider MS did not contribute to any political campaigns
> before this, but did after this. Funny how that works/]
>
> In addition to his uncompromising work as a lawyer and judge, Sporkin
> has distinguished himself as a legal critic. He has written on the
> need for separate codes of ethical conduct for various disciplines
> within the law, urged the adoption of multimedia presentations of
> evidence in courtrooms, and argued against what he sees as unfairness
> in the federal sentencing guidelines for drug offenses.
>
>> Quit wishing for fishes.
>
> Quit ignoring glaring effects of illegal marketing, monopolies and
> graft.
There have been no findings of illegal marketing, monopolistic practices, or
graft with regard to Microsoft in the US.
It's apparent you:
a) Don't like Microsoft (that's okay, a lot of people don't)
b) Are convinced Microsoft is evil, and
c) When the legal system moves contrary to your view, you invent convoluted
reasons for these legal decisions.
Carl Jung, the 19th century Swiss psychologist, theorized that when the
human brain is confronted by circumstances it cannot understand or accept,
it will create an alternate explanation to fit the facts, no matter how
bizarre the alternate explanation might be.
You are wishing for fishes.
Jack wrote:
>
> In the words of Dick Tracy, no shit! I am using Windows for the exact
> reasons anti-trust Judge Sporkin found MS guilty of violating US
> anti-trust laws way back in 1995. I was a UNIX administrator for
> years, ran DOS/WIN and OS/2 for years. I don't think WIN is a POS, I
> *know* WIN is a POS. I use it because it controls 93% of the market. It
> controls the market /not/ because it is good, but for all the reasons
> the good judge found MS in violation of US anti-trust laws.
Judge Sporkin was overruled by the US Court of Appeals which said the Judge
was way off-base in his ruling. The appellate court then barred Sporkin from
any further contact with the case.
>
> Well, MS didn't poor money into my pocket so I would look the other
> way when found guilty of violating US anti-trust laws that enabled
> them to dominate 93% of the market with a garbage OS. If they wish
> to drop some large cash in my pocket, I'll be happy to stop telling
> the truth about them.
The judgement of which you speak was reversed, due, in part, to judicial
misconduct. Specifically:
"Finally, we vacate the Final Judgment on remedies, because the trial judge
engaged in impermissible ex parte contacts by holding secret interviews with
members of the media and made numerous offensive comments about Microsoft
officials in public statements outside of the courtroom, giving rise to an
appearance of partiality. ... we hold that the actions of the trial judge
seriously tainted the proceedings before the District Court and called into
question the integrity of the judicial process. We are therefore constrained
to vacate the Final Judgment on remedies, remand the case for
reconsideration of the remedial order, and require that the case be assigned
to a different trial judge on remand... We vacate in full the Final Judgment
embodying the remedial order and remand the case to a different trial judge
for further proceedings consistent with this opinion."
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/legal/06-28opinion.mspx
Quit wishing for fishes.
HeyBub wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> HeyBub wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> You are wishing for fishes.
>>
>> Ok - I have to know... what is the wishing for fishes thing all
>> about?
>
> From an old aphorism: "If wishes were fishes, the sea would be full."
> Similar to "If wishes were horses, the poor would all ride."
Huh! Thought I'd heard most of those by this time, but that's a new one on
me. Or... maybe I really had heard it, but have since forgotten. That
could be quite likely...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:38:01 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>Are you using Windows? If so, you must like it or you'd be using
>Apple products or Linux. Are you buying a tablet with the Android OS?
According to Jack-asses headers:
(User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0)
Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0)
He's using Windows NT 6.1 which is essentially Windows 7. As usual
Jack-ass is full of shit.
>If they can do it, good for them. Apple seems to be up there profit
>wise too. No one is forcing anyone to buy MS products. Millions of
>people must have the latest iPhone and Apple is loaded with cash, but
>they still complain about MS.
Funny isn't it? Jack-ass is big on the American way which is
capitalism at its finest, but he refuses to grant the same right to
Microsoft.
HeyBub wrote:
>
> You are wishing for fishes.
Ok - I have to know... what is the wishing for fishes thing all about?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 9/3/2012 9:02 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:38:01 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Are you using Windows? If so, you must like it or you'd be using
>> Apple products or Linux. Are you buying a tablet with the Android OS?
>
> According to Jack-asses headers:
>
> (User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0)
> Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0)
Idiot!
> He's using Windows NT 6.1 which is essentially Windows 7. As usual
> Jack-ass is full of shit.
In the words of Dick Tracy, no shit! I am using Windows for the exact
reasons anti-trust Judge Sporkin found MS guilty of violating US
anti-trust laws way back in 1995. I was a UNIX administrator for years,
ran DOS/WIN and OS/2 for years. I don't think WIN is a POS, I *know*
WIN is a POS. I use it because it controls 93% of the market. It
controls the market /not/ because it is good, but for all the reasons
the good judge found MS in violation of US anti-trust laws.
It's the ENTIRE point of my posts on the subject. Idiot!
>> If they can do it, good for them. Apple seems to be up there profit
>> wise too. No one is forcing anyone to buy MS products. Millions of
>> people must have the latest iPhone and Apple is loaded with cash, but
>> they still complain about MS.
>
> Funny isn't it? Jack-ass is big on the American way which is
> capitalism at its finest, but he refuses to grant the same right to
> Microsoft.
Well, MS didn't poor money into my pocket so I would look the other way
when found guilty of violating US anti-trust laws that enabled them to
dominate 93% of the market with a garbage OS. If they wish to drop some
large cash in my pocket, I'll be happy to stop telling the truth about them.
--
Jack
Don't let your mind Wander, it's too small to be left out on it's own!
http://jbstein.com
[email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 17:56:59 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Jack wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> It can be argued that it also allowed us to move past OSs into
>>>> applications. Sorta like the monopoly in telephones helped make them
>>>> ubiquitous. Later, breaking the monopoly unleashed creativity. In
>>>> the '90s, PCs were about where phones were in the '50s.
>>>
>>> PC's are hardware, OS is software. Hardware (PC's) developed rapidly,
>>> but because MS dominated the OS market, and used a number of illegal
>>> anti-trust tactics to maintain that domination, their OS even today
>>> has not reached the quality of 1995 OS/2 or UNIX. At the time I
>>> suspected the WIN monopoly would set back computing 25 years, looks
>>> like I was wrong, it already past that marker.
>>
>> Not to mention that it has always been about both - operating systems and
>> applications. Two distinctly different things. Regardless of whether we
>> are talking about iPhones, Linux, Droids, PC's or iPads - both are part of
>> the environment.
>
> Right. It's the apps that sell everything else. In the end, that's what
> killed OS/2 and what's keeping Linux in the geek world (significant embedded,
> now, though).
>
>> The apps look different today, and that is not necessarily
>> for the better - it all depends on what they do and what you want them to
>> do.
>
> I think it's a pretty good use of the hardware we now have. I can't imagine a
> command line Sketchup. ;-)
I can because I wrote some Ruby scripts for Sketchup! : )
Anything you can request be done using a mouse, you can do with text
(using the Ruby programming language and the Sketchup API/Libraries).
And you can achieve potentially more precision and it runs fast!
On 9/5/2012 7:43 PM, [email protected] wrote:
n
> Right. It's the apps that sell everything else. In the end, that's what
> killed OS/2 and what's keeping Linux in the geek world (significant embedded,
> now, though).
>
>> The apps look different today, and that is not necessarily
>> for the better - it all depends on what they do and what you want them to
>> do.
>
> I think it's a pretty good use of the hardware we now have. I can't imagine a
> command line Sketchup. ;-)
Both OS/2 and UNIX can run non-command line apps more efficiently and
more dependably than DOS/WIN. That's why WIN is garbage. Good grief.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 9/7/2012 7:18 AM, HeyBub wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>>
>> In the words of Dick Tracy, no shit! I am using Windows for the exact
>> reasons anti-trust Judge Sporkin found MS guilty of violating US
>> anti-trust laws way back in 1995. I was a UNIX administrator for
>> years, ran DOS/WIN and OS/2 for years. I don't think WIN is a POS, I
>> *know* WIN is a POS. I use it because it controls 93% of the market. It
>> controls the market /not/ because it is good, but for all the reasons
>> the good judge found MS in violation of US anti-trust laws.
>
> Judge Sporkin was overruled by the US Court of Appeals which said the Judge
> was way off-base in his ruling. The appellate court then barred Sporkin from
> any further contact with the case.
>
>>
>> Well, MS didn't poor money into my pocket so I would look the other
>> way when found guilty of violating US anti-trust laws that enabled
>> them to dominate 93% of the market with a garbage OS. If they wish
>> to drop some large cash in my pocket, I'll be happy to stop telling
>> the truth about them.
>
> The judgement of which you speak was reversed, due, in part, to judicial
> misconduct. Specifically:
>
> "Finally, we vacate the Final Judgment on remedies, because the trial judge
> engaged in impermissible ex parte contacts by holding secret interviews with
> members of the media and made numerous offensive comments about Microsoft
> officials in public statements outside of the courtroom, giving rise to an
> appearance of partiality. ... we hold that the actions of the trial judge
> seriously tainted the proceedings before the District Court and called into
> question the integrity of the judicial process. We are therefore constrained
> to vacate the Final Judgment on remedies, remand the case for
> reconsideration of the remedial order, and require that the case be assigned
> to a different trial judge on remand... We vacate in full the Final Judgment
> embodying the remedial order and remand the case to a different trial judge
> for further proceedings consistent with this opinion."
> http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/legal/06-28opinion.mspx
Large amounts of money can get crooked people to do all sorts of things,
like the above. The real truth is this:
Sporkin's most controversial decision came in 1995 in one of the most
widely followed antitrust cases of the decade. Following a four-year
investigation, the Department of Justice had entered an agreement with
computer software giant Microsoft, Inc., to reform licensing practices
that the department said were monopolistic. Under provisions in the
Tunney Act (15 U.S.C.A. § 16(e) [1988]), Sporkin had the authority to
review the consent decree to determine if it was in the public interest.
In addition to criticizing Microsoft during the hearings, he took the
rare step of allowing its competitors to file friend-of-the-court
(amicus curiae) briefs anonymously so as to protect them from
retaliation by Microsoft. Ultimately, Sporkin rejected the consent
decree as being insufficient and ordered the Justice Department to
expand its investigation. (United States v. Microsoft Corp., 159 F.R.D.
318 [D.D.C. 1995]).
In a surprising move, both the Justice Department and Microsoft filed
separate appeals.
[/surprising that a victor appeals victory/]
Not only did both parties win, but Sporkin was removed from the case by
the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit for
apparent bias; the court then remanded the case to another judge with
orders to approve the consent decree (United States v. Microsoft Corp.,
56 F.3d 1448 [D.C. Cir. 1995]).
[/consider the good judge heard 4 years of testimony before becoming
"biased". Consider MS did not contribute to any political campaigns
before this, but did after this. Funny how that works/]
In addition to his uncompromising work as a lawyer and judge, Sporkin
has distinguished himself as a legal critic. He has written on the need
for separate codes of ethical conduct for various disciplines within the
law, urged the adoption of multimedia presentations of evidence in
courtrooms, and argued against what he sees as unfairness in the federal
sentencing guidelines for drug offenses.
> Quit wishing for fishes.
Quit ignoring glaring effects of illegal marketing, monopolies and graft.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 9/7/2012 3:47 PM, HeyBub wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>>
>> Large amounts of money can get crooked people to do all sorts of
>> things, like the above. The real truth is this:
>>
>> Sporkin's most controversial decision came in 1995 in one of the most
>> widely followed antitrust cases of the decade. Following a four-year
>> investigation, the Department of Justice had entered an agreement with
>> computer software giant Microsoft, Inc., to reform licensing practices
>> that the department said were monopolistic. Under provisions in the
>> Tunney Act (15 U.S.C.A. § 16(e) [1988]), Sporkin had the authority to
>> review the consent decree to determine if it was in the public
>> interest. In addition to criticizing Microsoft during the hearings,
>> he took the rare step of allowing its competitors to file
>> friend-of-the-court (amicus curiae) briefs anonymously so as to
>> protect them from retaliation by Microsoft. Ultimately, Sporkin
>> rejected the consent decree as being insufficient and ordered the
>> Justice Department to expand its investigation. (United States v.
>> Microsoft Corp., 159 F.R.D. 318 [D.D.C. 1995]).
>>
>> In a surprising move, both the Justice Department and Microsoft filed
>> separate appeals.
>>
>> [/surprising that a victor appeals victory/]
>>
>> Not only did both parties win, but Sporkin was removed from the case
>> by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit for
>> apparent bias; the court then remanded the case to another judge with
>> orders to approve the consent decree (United States v. Microsoft
>> Corp., 56 F.3d 1448 [D.C. Cir. 1995]).
>>
>> [/consider the good judge heard 4 years of testimony before becoming
>> "biased". Consider MS did not contribute to any political campaigns
>> before this, but did after this. Funny how that works/]
>>
>> In addition to his uncompromising work as a lawyer and judge, Sporkin
>> has distinguished himself as a legal critic. He has written on the
>> need for separate codes of ethical conduct for various disciplines
>> within the law, urged the adoption of multimedia presentations of
>> evidence in courtrooms, and argued against what he sees as unfairness
>> in the federal sentencing guidelines for drug offenses.
>>
>>> Quit wishing for fishes.
>>
>> Quit ignoring glaring effects of illegal marketing, monopolies and
>> graft.
>
> There have been no findings of illegal marketing, monopolistic practices, or
> graft with regard to Microsoft in the US.
False, Judge Sporkin, and established administrative law judge found
exactly that. Moreover, the effects of these monopolistic practices has
been, and is in front of your face for many, many years. No amount of
legal proceedings or chicanery can alter that simple fact.
> It's apparent you:
> a) Don't like Microsoft (that's okay, a lot of people don't)
I have zero feeling about MS. I don't like their OS because it is crap.
> b) Are convinced Microsoft is evil, and
I am convinced MS is making 30% profit on a junk product that everyone
(90+ percent DT's) is using. Since I know there have been much, much
better products out there, and I know first hand these products were not
readily available to the public, and I know that in normal competitive
markets, this cannot happen, something was amiss. Turns out plenty of
others were also aware, and took MS to court, and after 4 years of
testimony, the Judge hearing the testimony thought exactly as I and many
others. (2+2=4).
> c) When the legal system moves contrary to your view, you invent convoluted
> reasons for these legal decisions.
The legal system only confirmed my view, and plenty of others view on
the subject. What happened after that is quite obvious, when the victor
in a hearing appeals the ruling. (2+2=7) You can't deal with that,
that's your problem.
> Carl Jung, the 19th century Swiss psychologist, theorized that when the
> human brain is confronted by circumstances it cannot understand or accept,
> it will create an alternate explanation to fit the facts, no matter how
> bizarre the alternate explanation might be.
Henry Wallace said Still another danger is represented by those who,
paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their
insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not
hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the
public from monopolistic extortion."
> You are wishing for fishes.
You are in denial.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
Jack wrote:
> On 9/7/2012 3:47 PM, HeyBub wrote:
>> Jack wrote:
>>>
>>> Large amounts of money can get crooked people to do all sorts of
>>> things, like the above. The real truth is this:
>>>
>>> Sporkin's most controversial decision came in 1995 in one of the
>>> most widely followed antitrust cases of the decade. Following a
>>> four-year investigation, the Department of Justice had entered an
>>> agreement with computer software giant Microsoft, Inc., to reform
>>> licensing practices that the department said were monopolistic.
>>> Under provisions in the Tunney Act (15 U.S.C.A. § 16(e) [1988]),
>>> Sporkin had the authority to review the consent decree to determine
>>> if it was in the public interest. In addition to criticizing
>>> Microsoft during the hearings, he took the rare step of allowing
>>> its competitors to file friend-of-the-court (amicus curiae) briefs
>>> anonymously so as to protect them from retaliation by Microsoft.
>>> Ultimately, Sporkin rejected the consent decree as being
>>> insufficient and ordered the Justice Department to expand its
>>> investigation. (United States v. Microsoft Corp., 159 F.R.D. 318
>>> [D.D.C. 1995]). In a surprising move, both the Justice Department and
>>> Microsoft
>>> filed separate appeals.
>>>
>>> [/surprising that a victor appeals victory/]
>>>
>>> Not only did both parties win, but Sporkin was removed from the case
>>> by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit
>>> for apparent bias; the court then remanded the case to another
>>> judge with orders to approve the consent decree (United States v.
>>> Microsoft Corp., 56 F.3d 1448 [D.C. Cir. 1995]).
>>>
>>> [/consider the good judge heard 4 years of testimony before becoming
>>> "biased". Consider MS did not contribute to any political campaigns
>>> before this, but did after this. Funny how that works/]
>>>
>>> In addition to his uncompromising work as a lawyer and judge,
>>> Sporkin has distinguished himself as a legal critic. He has written
>>> on the need for separate codes of ethical conduct for various
>>> disciplines within the law, urged the adoption of multimedia
>>> presentations of evidence in courtrooms, and argued against what he
>>> sees as unfairness in the federal sentencing guidelines for drug
>>> offenses.
>>>> Quit wishing for fishes.
>>>
>>> Quit ignoring glaring effects of illegal marketing, monopolies and
>>> graft.
>>
>> There have been no findings of illegal marketing, monopolistic
>> practices, or graft with regard to Microsoft in the US.
>
> False, Judge Sporkin, and established administrative law judge found
> exactly that. Moreover, the effects of these monopolistic practices
> has been, and is in front of your face for many, many years. No
> amount of legal proceedings or chicanery can alter that simple fact.
What do you not understand? Sporkin's ruling was vacated in a stunning
rebuke of his activities, evident bias, and judicial misconduct. When a
decision is vacated, it never happened.
>
>> It's apparent you:
>> a) Don't like Microsoft (that's okay, a lot of people don't)
>
> I have zero feeling about MS. I don't like their OS because it is
> crap.
>> b) Are convinced Microsoft is evil, and
>
> I am convinced MS is making 30% profit on a junk product that everyone
> (90+ percent DT's) is using. Since I know there have been much, much
> better products out there, and I know first hand these products were
> not readily available to the public, and I know that in normal
> competitive markets, this cannot happen, something was amiss. Turns
> out plenty of others were also aware, and took MS to court, and after
> 4 years of testimony, the Judge hearing the testimony thought exactly
> as I and many others. (2+2=4).
And, again, the judge's ruling was struck down by the appellate court - by
judges more fair and temperate than he.
It is not rational to hold up Sporkin's decision as indicative of anything
other than judicial misconduct.
On 8/31/2012 8:40 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/30/2012 9:32 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Aug 2012 12:24:29 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I wish! I still have OS/2 and my entire OPUS BBS system on a 486 on the
>>> floor beside me. Hasn't been hooked up in 12 years but I bet it would
>>> boot right up if I plugged her in. WIN has not caught up to OS/2 even
>>> with XP and WIN 7. I will admit that XP almost worked, and WIN 7 is
>>> getting there, but really, I don't think anyone at MS has a freaking
>>> clue what they are doing, and must use way to many recreational drugs.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I hear complaints like that often. For some reason though, the
>> complainers continue to use the product rather than make their own
>> system that would be better, faster, cheaper. Once you do, let me
>> know and I'll buy it. Meantime, I'm using MS products until yours
>> hits the market.
>
> Even Windows 8!?
>
> <g, d&r>
>
>
While not terrible the inbetweener Windows programs that never really
caught on will probably adopt Windows 8 too. l~)
I understand that you can run "8" with a more familiar interface rather
than with the Windows Smart Phone screen. I never had the desire to
touch a monitor, keyboard, and mouse....
On 8/28/2012 9:09 AM, Jack wrote:snip
>>> Only at the store, but I don't need to try one out to know what they
>>> cost. My statements do not question there quality, just the price.
>>>
>>> I never saw anyone actually use one but I've been out of the loop for
>>> years. However, several months ago when we had the same basic
>>> discussion, I was at my favorite low class watering hole that was having
>>> a club election and was packed with people I knew. 6 of them were
>>> tradesman, 2 general contractors, one carpenter one drywall guy, and a
>>> body man and a mechanic. 3 were in the business for around 50 years, and
>>> still working. 3 were mid forties and only been doing it for 20 some
>>> years. I asked each one of them about Festools, and only one ever heard
>>> of them. He was a contractor and he said he didn't own any because they
>>> cost too much.
>>
>> Do any of these guys at your "low class watering hole" make a handsome
>> living, wish that they could retire?
>
> Nice try, but stupid. By "low class" I meant it was not a club that
> cost $50 grand a year to belong.
I am not trying to pull anything here, I am only trying to show you that
while you may think that Festool is over priced there are many more
people that believe that the brand of tools you use are overpriced. It
is all relative.
For you Festool may not make sense, I get that, I have been there. But
for me, and doing this" for hire" since 1997, my quality of work has at
least maintained and probably gotten better with the Domino and track
saw in particular. And for sure I am saving days if not weeks on large
jobs. That last fact alone has by far justified the extra cost of the
Festool tools that I have purchased. Keep in mind that I have used
"thousands" of Domino floating tenons, and in most cases you have to cut
double very close tolerance mortises for each of those Domino tenons.
Would a biscuit joiner work, yes in about 25% of my needs.
>
>> Is this low class watering hole a
>> level or two above sitting under a bridge with homeless people drinking
>> ripple?
>
> Oh, damn, I forgot, you think a caddy truck is junk and I reckon drink
> $500 bottles of wine whilst sucking up dirt with your $500 festering
> vacuum cleaner.
No, just making a comparison to what you might consider a level of
quality and what I consider a level of quality and what someone else may
consider a level of quality. And I am still nowhere near as good as Tom
Playman used to be. Just because yo know a group of guys that do what
they do with a certain priced tool does not mean that they are the best
at what they do.
>
>> What quality of tools do you think the homeless use, do you
>> think that perhaps they would think what you pay for tools is too much?
>
> No, they wouldn't I don't pay $500 for a damn vac.
And they don't pay as much as what you do either.
>
>> It is all relative.
>
> That's for sure.
>
>>
>>>
>>> I was not surprised one bit not one of them owned a festering tool, but
>>> I was a bit surprised only one ever heard of them. These guys are not
>>> as you say "bit players" These are the real thing.
>>
>> I would not actually call those at the "low class watering hole" the
>> real thing just because they don't use Festool.
>
> They are the "real thing" because they are professionals that have been
> in the business for 20 to 50 years. I know it must really piss you off
> that most in the trades don't use festering tools, but that's how it is.
Being a pro for 20~50 years does not prove anything. I am sure thse
guys are great at what they do. That does not mean that they doe the
absolute best job. I am not pissed at all, If I were not better than
the average pro wold not be picking and choosing the work I do. I lot
of other pros work results make me look good.
>
> When I was in the
>> automotive business, specifically the new car dealership business, I was
>> the service sales manager. I had 35-40 mechanics and several made very
>> good livings. One in particular was about two years younger than me,
>> 27, and very often was the subject of conversation at the
>> owner/management meeting held weekly. This particular mechanic very
>> often made more money per month than the owner. We are talking in
>> excess of $10K per month in 1983 dollars. He was truly the real thing
>> too and bought the finest tools offered.
>
> My guess is every one of the guys I mentioned make more money than the
> other 35-40 mechanics you had working for you. Two of them make more
> in a week than your guy makes a month. Not sure what that has to do
> with anything, but, if you want to impinge upon their skills in the
> trades because they don't use, or even heard of festools, you are
> blowing smoke.
>
Perhaps every one of the guys your mentioned made more money that any of
my mechanics and even in 1983 dollars. The fact remained that the more
expensive time saver tools that my guy used enabled him to make that
large salary. I did not know any better back then and questioned him
about the money he spent on his tools. He reminded me how he would save
contaminated diesel fuel and put it in the 55 gal drum in the bed of his
diesel Pickup. He seldom paid for fuel. He did not spend money unless
he could justify the cost.
On 8/28/2012 8:43 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:26:49 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> On 8/27/2012 9:30 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 22:05:09 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dave wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dust barriers, walling off part of a house, time it took to sweep up,
>>>>> making sure you didn't track dust all over the place. It's not perfect
>>>>> with Festool dust collection, but it's sure as hell a lot better than
>>>>> it was.
>>>>
>>>> As long as you are cutting Dominos. How does that help with the larger
>>>> percentage of the work done on site? Think circular saws, table saws,
>>>> drills, sanders, etc.? I just can't see where this green stuff is that
>>>> significantly better in the real world of working on a total project.
>>>
>>> Can't beat a track saw for cutting sheet goods accurately.
>>>
>>
>>
>> AND the cut being the final cut. And that is not just a Festool thing
>> any more, the Makita and DeWalt saws can do this now also although I
>> could not testify as to which works better in all aspects.
>
> I looked at them before I bought the Festool. They aren't really any cheaper
> and the Fesstool has more accessories available.
>
Yeah they are all close enough in price, to be considered. But like you
said Festool has more accessories and I know that they integrate with
each other pretty well.